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Thursday, December 14, 2006 | Science : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Intelligent design: The God Lab

by Celeste Biever Redmond

Thank you to Rob Willox for sending this in.

Reposted from New Scientist:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg19225824.000

PAY a visit to the Biologic Institute and you are liable to get a chilly reception. "We only see people with appointments," states the man who finally responds to my persistent knocks. Then he slams the door on me.

I am standing on the ground floor of an office building in Redmond, Washington, the Seattle suburb best known as home town to Microsoft. What I'm trying to find out is whether the 1-year-old institute is the new face of another industry that has sprung up in the area - the one that has set out to try to prove evolution is wrong.

This is my second attempt to engage in person with scientists at Biologic. At the institute's other facility in nearby Fremont, researchers work at benches lined with fume hoods, incubators and microscopes - a typical scene in this up-and-coming biotech hub. Most of them there proved just as reluctant to speak with a New Scientist reporter.

The reticence cloaks an unorthodox agenda. "We are the first ones doing what we might call lab science in intelligent design," says George Weber, the only one of Biologic's four directors who would speak openly with me. "The objective is to challenge the scientific community on naturalism." Weber is not a scientist but a retired professor of business and administration at the Presbyterian Whitworth College in Spokane, Washington. He heads the Spokane chapter of Reasonstobelieve.org, a Christian organisation that seeks to challenge Darwinism.

The anti-evolution movement's latest response to Darwin is intelligent design (ID). Its fundamental premise is that certain features of living organisms are too complex to have evolved without the direct intervention of an intelligent designer. In ID literature that designer remains cautiously anonymous, but for many proponents he corresponds closely with the God of the Christian Bible. Over the past few years the movement's media-savvy public face has been the Seattle-based Discovery Institute, which has championed intelligent design, claiming it to be a legitimate scientific theory, and supported its key architects. It was Discovery that provided the funding to get the Biologic Institute up and running.

Last week I learned that following his communication with New Scientist, Weber has left the board of the Biologic Institute. Douglas Axe, the lab's senior researcher and spokesman, told me in an email that Weber "was found to have seriously misunderstood the purpose of Biologic and to have misrepresented it". Axe's portrayal of the Biologic Institute's purpose excludes religious connotation. He says that the lab's main objective "is to show that the design perspective can lead to better science", although he allows that the Biologic Institute will "contribute substantially to the scientific case for intelligent design".

This science-first message suggests that the developing anti-evolution movement in the US has moved on to a new stage - one in which opponents of evolutionary biology, trained as research scientists, take to the lab in search of the creator's handiwork. In light of recent events, it also makes sense as a public relations strategy.

ID was dealt a significant blow when parents in the Dover school district of Pennsylvania successfully challenged the right of school board officials to introduce pro-ID material into high school biology classrooms. In December 2005, US federal court judge John Jones ruled that it was unconstitutional to teach ID in public schools because it would violate the separation of church and state as laid out in the First Amendment (New Scientist, 7 January, p 8).

In addition to its religious undertones, ID had not "been the subject of testing and research", Jones stated, nor had it "generated peer-reviewed publications", and so had no business in science classes. Wary of losing similar court cases, at least four state education boards subsequently rejected or removed ID-friendly language from their high-school curricula, or are expected do so when newly elected members take office next year.

These developments underscored ID's most serious weakness. "The criticism that has been levelled against them most frequently is that they talk about science but they don't do science," says Richard Olmstead, a biologist at the University of Washington in Seattle who has spoken out against the teaching of ID in science classes.

Research agenda

The message is clear. If ID supporters can bolster their case by citing more experimental research, another judge at some future date might conclude that ID does qualify as science, and is therefore a legitimate topic for discussion in American science classrooms. This is precisely the kind of scientific respectability that research at the Biologic Institute is attempting to provide. "We need all the input we can get in the sciences," Weber told me. "What we are doing is necessary to move ID along."

Axe appears to be one of the prime movers in this latest version of the anti-evolution enterprise. In a Discovery Institute strategy paper that was leaked on the internet in 1999, Axe is identified as heading up a molecular biology programme that has the aim of undercutting the scientific basis for evolution. At that time he was funded by the Discovery Institute and working as a postdoctoral fellow at the Centre for Protein Engineering, a research centre in Cambridge, UK, funded by the Medical Research Council, under the supervision of protein specialist Alan Fersht of the University of Cambridge.

Fersht says he did not at first know about the Discovery Institute's support for ID. "People do work in labs on external funding. Basically he [Axe] had a fellowship from what I thought was a bona fide research institute," he says. When another researcher in his lab pointed to the Discovery Institute's agenda and suggested that Axe be asked to leave, Fersht refused. "I have always been fairly easy-going about people working in the lab. I said I was not going to throw him out. What he was doing was asking legitimate questions about how a protein folded."

In 2000 Axe published a paper about protein mutations (Journal of Molecular Biology, vol 301, p 585). The paper itself makes no mention of ID, but William Dembski, a philosopher and senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, cites it as peer-reviewed evidence for ID (see "Building a case").

By 2002 it was becoming clear that Axe and Fersht were in dispute with each other over the implications of work going on in Fersht's lab. At the time Fersht was preparing to publish a retraction of a paper in which he and three colleagues had claimed to have caused one enzyme to evolve the functionality of another (Nature, vol 403, p 617). Axe interpreted the fact that problems had surfaced with the result as evidence that there were problems with the theory of evolution. "I described to Alan preliminary results of mine that seemed to challenge the ability of spontaneous mutations to produce proteins with fundamentally new structures, and I suggested that the struggling projects under his direction might actually be pointing to the same conclusion," Axe told me in an email. Fersht disagreed with the suggestion. The problem result "didn't show anything of the sort", he says. "It showed there were inadequacies in our knowledge."

In March 2002, Axe left Fersht's lab to work as a visiting scientist at the structural biology unit of the Babraham Institute, also in Cambridge. His work there, again funded by the Discovery Institute, led to the publication of a second paper in 2004 (Journal of Molecular Biology, vol 341, p 1295) that was again cited by ID proponents as evidence in its favour.

Since 2004 Axe has resurfaced in Washington state, where he has set up shop at the Biologic Institute, a short drive away from the Discovery Institute. Weber told me that Biologic was a "branch of Discovery". Both Axe and Discovery spokesperson Rob Crowther insist that it is a "separate entity".

Biologic's staff consists of at least three researchers, including Ann Gauger, who like Axe signed a petition titled "a statement of dissent against Darwin's theory of evolution" that was organised by the Discovery Institute in September 2005. In 1985 Gauger published a paper on cell adhesion in fruit flies (Nature, vol 313, p 395) while completing a PhD from the University of Washington, and then went on to publish more papers as a postdoctoral fellow at Harvard University. Her former supervisor, Larry Goldstein, now at the University of California, San Diego, expressed surprise when he learned of her association with the anti-evolution movement.

Gauger would not speak to New Scientist about her work. According to Axe, the projects currently under way at Biologic include "examining the origin of metabolic pathways in bacteria, the evolution of gene order in bacteria, and the evolution of protein folds".

Certainly the topics Axe mentions are of interest to science, says Kenneth Miller, a cell biologist at Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island, who testified as an expert witness for the pro-evolution side at the Dover trial. Miller adds that they might be of particular interest to people intent on undermining evolution if, like Axe's earlier work on protein folding, they can be used to highlight structures and functions whose origins and evolution are not well understood.

In addition to protein and cell biology, Biologic is pursuing a programme in computational biology which draws on the expertise of another of its researchers, Brendan Dixon, a former software developer at Microsoft. According to Axe, "On the computational side, we are nearing completion of a system for exploring the evolution of artificial genes that are considerably more life-like than has been the case previously."

Dixon also declined to speak with New Scientist, but there are reasons why the computational arena might be of interest to the anti-evolution movement. Starting in 2001, Robert Pennock at Michigan State University in East Lansing and colleagues wrote a computer program that behaves like a self-replicating organism able to mutate unpredictably and evolve (Nature, vol 423, p 139). The experiment demonstrates how natural selection and random mutation give rise to increasingly complex organisms.

For anti-evolutionists, this was a discouraging result. "That one really got to them," says Barbara Forrest, a philosopher at Southeastern Louisiana University in Hammond who studies the anti-evolution movement. It would not be surprising if Biologic wanted to challenge the impact of Pennock's work by finding a counter-example in which a computer simulation fails to produce complexity by random mutation alone. Such a counter-example, once published, would be available for citation by proponents of ID. Even if the citations do not appear in peer-reviewed literature, says Forrest, they could still have an influence on politicians and school board officials, who might not be sensitive to this distinction.

Miller agrees that work of this kind would help anti-evolutionists politically. "If Axe can produce a few more papers in good journals they will be able to cite a growing body of evidence favouring ID," he says.

However, Steve Fuller, a sociologist at the University of Warwick, UK, who testified in favour of ID in the Dover trial, believes the Biologic Institute's activities could help break down barriers between religious people and scientists. "Regardless of whether the science cuts any ice against evolution, one of the virtues is that it could provide a kind of model for how religiously motivated people can go into the lab."

Ronald Numbers, a historian at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, who has studied creationism, views it in a different light. The lab's existence will help sustain support within the anti-evolution community, he says. "It will be good for the troops if leaders in the ID movement can claim: 'We're not just talking theory. We have labs, we have real scientists working on this.'"

Building a case

While researching protein structure at various institutes in the UK, Douglas Axe, now at the Biologic Institute in Redmond, Washington, published two peer-reviewed papers that are cited by anti-evolutionists as evidence that intelligent design is backed by serious science.

"Extreme functional sensitivity to conservative amino acid changes on enzyme exteriors" Journal of Molecular Biology, vol 301, p 585.

What it reports Inducing multiple mutations in a bacterial enzyme causes it to lose its ability to perform its role as an antibiotic disabler.

How ID proponents use it Because such mutations destroy "the possibility of any functioning" in the enzyme, it could not have arisen via "Darwinian pathways" (William Dembski, from Debating Design: From Darwin to DNA, Cambridge University Press, p 327).

What scientists say Major modifications can be made to proteins without destroying function. Also, making many mutations at once is different to gradual evolution, where dud mutations get weeded out.

"Estimating the prevalence of protein sequences adopting functional enzyme folds" Journal of Molecular Biology, vol 341, p 1295.


What it reports Calculates the probability that a random sequence of amino acids will result in the folded shape that a protein needs to function as an enzyme.

How ID proponents use it The probability of creating a functioning protein fold "at random" is very low, making "appeals to chance absurd, even granting the duration of the entire universe" (Stephen Meyer, Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, vol 117, p 213).

What scientists say the vast majority of protein folds probably evolved via alteration of other smaller functional amino acid chains.
From issue 2582 of New Scientist magazine, 16 December 2006, page 8-11

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1. Comment #12916 by Yorker on December 14, 2006 at 11:26 am

 avatarI wonder if that place set up in Redmond specifically because it contains probably the largest concentration of atheists in a small area, anywhere in the world?

Anyway, I'm weary of the nonsensical, non-scientific ID non-debate.

Other Comments by Yorker

2. Comment #12917 by Yorker on December 14, 2006 at 11:41 am

 avatar>>Starting in 2001, Robert Pennock at Michigan State University in East Lansing and colleagues wrote a computer program that behaves like a self-replicating organism able to mutate unpredictably and evolve<<

In 2001! A bit late since programmers have been doing this for yonks! Even hobbyist programmers did passable jobs of this. I think I'm right in saying Richard Dawkins did something called Darwin Pond, correct me if I'm wrong Richard.

Other Comments by Yorker

3. Comment #12918 by Thrall on December 14, 2006 at 11:41 am

Astonishing. I think this is dangerous. This is the same as an oil company hiring scientists to refute global warming, so that anybody who disagrees can use the pseudoscience to uphold their case. It doesn't matter where the information comes from, people will use it against science if it helps them prove god.

Other Comments by Thrall

4. Comment #12919 by Jcosta on December 14, 2006 at 11:47 am

Will someone please join the following discussion

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/religion_science/001019dan_sarewitz_lies_.html

Other Comments by Jcosta

5. Comment #12921 by Manfred on December 14, 2006 at 11:53 am

It is indeed dangerous. There is no guarantee that next time the ID advocates take their case to classrooms or courtrooms, sensible parents can find another judge Jones.
This is their new tactic to win their case by presenting peer reviewed papers.
Although I am not sure if they can really say that these are tests for ID, rather than tests for evolution. This was also one of their problems at the Dover trial which the judge pointed out in his ruling. Even if they claim evolution in a particular case is not the answer, it does not mean ID is the answer. How can they test the intelligent designer?

Other Comments by Manfred

6. Comment #12926 by ruth on December 14, 2006 at 12:25 pm

I work 3 floors up from the Discovery Institute in downtown Seattle. Pardon my provinciality, but why HERE? The Seattle area is as secular as America gets and (incidentally) home to Richard's sponsor!

I'm worried the ID lunatics may have found among our zillion biochemists some sympathizers who've been hiding their religious convictions from colleagues and are now donating their time.

Other Comments by ruth

7. Comment #12927 by Irate Harry on December 14, 2006 at 12:36 pm

These ID merchants are the worst kind of hypocrites, unashamedly trying to use the scientific method to prove mindlessly handed down mythology.

They are worse than the blind believers who show a level of honesty in proclaiming faith without reason.

It is only discourse, debate, and discussions triggered by thought leaders like Richard Dawkins that can help protect against the dangerous transgressions of IDiots in education and government.

Other Comments by Irate Harry

8. Comment #12928 by Pilot22A on December 14, 2006 at 12:40 pm

Instead of saying, "we will look at your results and try to replicate them to see if your results are correct," these guys say in effect, "your results are wrong and we are going to prove so."

What kind of science is that???

Other Comments by Pilot22A

9. Comment #12929 by Yorker on December 14, 2006 at 12:50 pm

 avatarThis is not dangerous, this is good.

This is a response to the fact that Behe took a severe butt-kicking over his rejection of peer-reviewd papers in Dover. It doesn't matter how many papers they produce, if the science is bad, they will lose again! Last time they just lied, next time round, a bunch of bogus peer reviews will show they faked results -- a much worse offence -- one that will cause their demise and the discrediting of the scientists involved. If the science is good, they're right!

I think the outcome is pre-ordained -- if you'll forgive the expression -- here folks, nothing to worry about.

Other Comments by Yorker

10. Comment #12930 by rabidchihauhau on December 14, 2006 at 12:53 pm

 avatarmy worries run deeper;

over the past decade or so, the fundamentalists 'discovered' business and realized that there was a ready-made market for anything labelled with fundamentalist origins. There are now so-called Christian radio stations, television stations, news broadcasts, publishing houses, toys, educational materials, food, clothing, rock bands - you name it, someone is marketing a religiously oriented brand of it somewhere.

There is nothing out there to stop te Discovery Institute and their ilk from deciding that 'peer review by obviously biased Darwinists will never allow their theories the light of day': soon they will establish the American Academy of Christian Scientists', establishing their own peer review board, and a host of other labs and foundations; the courts and the every-man in the street will be hard-pressed to understand why one science academy is legit and another one isn't...

Other Comments by rabidchihauhau

11. Comment #12931 by macronencer on December 14, 2006 at 1:01 pm

 avatarI don't understand how one is supposed to test a theory that is untestable. At best, they might discover something that contradicts some small part of modern evolutionary biology (though I'd be surprised, but it might be possible). However, that would be irrelevant. It would no more prove that organisms were intelligently designed than the discovery that one of Salieri's works was written by Mozart would prove that Mozart never wrote anything at all.

However, perhaps that is not how the politicians, or the general public, would interpret it... :(

Other Comments by macronencer

12. Comment #12934 by Manfred on December 14, 2006 at 1:10 pm

macronencer

That point exactly came up in the Dover trial when Michael Behe argued for his "irreducable comlexity" in the case of the bacterial flagellum and other things. Although his claims were refuted, the judge noticed that even if they come up with something that cannot be explained by Darwiniaan Evolution, it would be a test for evolution not for the ID, which is not testable or falsifiable.

I am not sure the next judge would be that smart though.

Yorker,
This is dangerous. These people modify the very definition of science to fit their subversion of true science in the classrooms.

Other Comments by Manfred

13. Comment #12935 by Yorker on December 14, 2006 at 1:19 pm

 avatar10. Comment #12930 by rabidchihauhau

>>...soon they will establish the American Academy of Christian Scientists', establishing their own peer review board, and a host of other labs and foundations; the courts and the every-man in the street will be hard-pressed to understand why one science academy is legit and another one isn't...<<

I don't think this will ever happen.

America has a large number of scientists but not a world monopoly on science and certainly not on rationality. Other scientists would not put up with such nonsense, but even if things did get to a similar state, the best American scientists would just leave and help sensible nations to prosper. The USA would become an intellectual wasteland populated by a bunch of god-befuddled dolts waiting interminably for a never-arriving rapture and slowly sinking back to stone age existence.

Somehow I don't think corporate America and the real power mongers will allow themselves to bullied by religious lunatics. If push comes to shove, the wealthy controllers would have to stop pretending religion and crush the crazies. Keep in mind that history also shows that the USA is fond of eradicating those who stifle profits. As soon as religion stops turning a buck, it'll have to go. You know..like "all da way Bugsie!"

Other Comments by Yorker

14. Comment #12937 by Logicel on December 14, 2006 at 1:39 pm

 avatarJcosta, submit the original article (http://www.cspo.org/home/perspectives/index.htm) to this site for possible listing as an article for discussion. This way many more posters can analyse it.

Other Comments by Logicel

15. Comment #12939 by Yorker on December 14, 2006 at 1:47 pm

 avatarManfred

If you scan this site you'll see that the ID issue has been discussed at length, many people here have a sound grasp of what's going on and know what its aims are.

It has failed already, its supporters exposed as liars, will another judge in some future trial adjudicate against judge Jones? Will he/she ignore the past history of ID? How can any judge agree with bad science? Even if ID was accepted, it would simply hasten America's downfall. The rest of the world is not constrained to follow an obvious stupidity that may happen in the USA. The death penalty is a good example, most sophisticated countries abandoned this form of legalized revenge murder some time ago.

Other Comments by Yorker

16. Comment #12943 by Yorker on December 14, 2006 at 2:20 pm

 avatar14. Comment #12937 by Logicel

I read this article, I found it somewhat boring, it didn't grab me or make me think. Here are some quotes I took issue with.

>>Fundamentalists and physicists might like to claim that they alone occupy the solid ground of ultimate authority..<<

I've never heard any physicist make any such claim.


>>A world run by like-thinking scientists is as horrific to contemplate as one run by like-thinking evangelicals.<<

Nuts.


>>There are some lies that society cannot do without.<<

Fine, as long as they are as acknowledged as lies; personally, I can live without them. This is basically the entire thrust of the article so I guess I disagree with it.

Other Comments by Yorker

17. Comment #12944 by Manfred on December 14, 2006 at 2:22 pm

Yorker
I have no doubt people on this site know about ID and its aims. But the ID advocates are not aiming people on this site, are they?

Their target is the school children who are not familiar with evolution in detail and are asked by ID advocates to make a choice between evolution and ID.

They can find a like-minded judge in the US somewhere, it is not that difficult. Why do you think a judge cannot agree with bad science?

And I am not sure why you keep saying that even if ID is accepted in the US, so be it. These are children and their education and their potentials we are talking about, why should it matter if they are in the US or somewhere else? No the world might not follow the stupidity (although this is happenning somewhere else too, in Turkey for example, Islamic ID?).

I would very much like to ignore ID and Creationism. But they are pushing to enter to the education system, and science classes under various names. If scientists ignore that, it would be a disaster. And the fact that many scientists are working against ID in science classes, is testimony that they are taking the danger seriously.

Other Comments by Manfred

18. Comment #12945 by Yorker on December 14, 2006 at 2:36 pm

 avatarYes Manfred, I know. They're trying to infiltrate here in the UK also, I'm just saying that we have been all through this before, it's getting old. I suggest you listen to the 2 hour video destruction of ID by Kenneth Miller, it's here on this site. ID is already dead, they're changing its name to Critical Analysis (same old bullshit though).

Other Comments by Yorker

19. Comment #12947 by Manfred on December 14, 2006 at 2:43 pm

I have already watched that video Yorker.
Isn't this more of a reason that their new tactics should not be ignored?
Yes, it might get old to you and me, but believe me, there are lots of people who should become aware of this, exactly because the IDers (!) keeps coming back to try to get to science calssrooms.
Sorry, but I cannot stand it when science is being subverted like this. And it doesn't matter to me where in the world this happens or might happen.

Other Comments by Manfred

20. Comment #12952 by John P on December 14, 2006 at 3:01 pm

 avatarI tend to agree with Yorker.

Let them do "science" in all of the labs they want. If they publish any findings, by definition, other scientists should be able to reproduce their results. If they can't be reproduced, then the findings are not very good evidence of anything, much less ID. The scientific community will make mincemeat of shoddy science. And if they are right, (i.e. prove there is an intelligent designer via reproducible science) well, hell, I'll give up atheism.

Look at the two measly papers they published, referenced at the end of the article above. Where are the supporting articles reproducing the findings? There don't appear to be any.

Look at what they use their "peer reviewed" findings to support. Not any direct link to evidence of an intelligent designer. Only as a negative inference that evolution could not have happened as explained or in the manner previously described. Does that prove ID? No. It only means that more science is needed, at best, something no scientist worth his salt would dispute.

A lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Other Comments by John P

21. Comment #12960 by TearTheRoofOffTheSucker on December 14, 2006 at 4:23 pm

I think the theory of gravity is incorrect. I am now going to jump up and down repeatedly, until eventually I leave the surface of the Earth with a constant velocity. Here goes....

....

Other Comments by TearTheRoofOffTheSucker

22. Comment #12969 by One Eyed Jack on December 14, 2006 at 5:25 pm

 avatarWhat I am trying to imagine is how they intend to prove ID by experimentation. You can show microevolution in microorganisms, but how to you go about demonstrating ID? My guess is that any "research" generated will be geared towards tearing down evolutionary theory rather than actually supporting ID.

Other Comments by One Eyed Jack

23. Comment #12989 by Nardo on December 14, 2006 at 11:38 pm

In reply to Thrall's comment #3 in this thread. Who do you think put the President of the USA into power? And Why?

Other Comments by Nardo

24. Comment #12999 by Davin06 on December 15, 2006 at 2:21 am

 avatarYorker
I agree the arguement is old and worn out, ID holds no water, but also this is a war we cannot afford to lose. The Creationists are in it for the long haul, they are trying it on in the UK, and getting some traction judging by the inaction from our govt. and education authorities.
There also seems to be a resurgence in religion, probably a reaction to the Islamic intrusion into British society, we cannot allow them to undermine science, we need the rational foot soldiers to keep going, they're hoping to win just by wearing us down.

Yes, it's the same old bullshit they're hawking around, but they will never give up, they'll keep dressing it up in different clothes, I'm sure everyone thought they were finished with the Scopes monkey trial, but the came back with ID, and soon it'll be called something else, they are very good with deception and brainwashing, remeber we're dealing with experts in those two disciplines.

Other Comments by Davin06

25. Comment #13010 by Aussie on December 15, 2006 at 3:51 am

As a former research scientist for over 30 years I must say that I find the ID approach to science seductively attractive.

With this novel approach you have the advantage of knowing the answer before you even commence your research program so you can work backwards towards the question.

This methodology removes any risk that you will not converge on the "correct" conclusion so it ensures a 100% success rate.

How long do you think that it will be before these ID "researchers" are making a clean sweep of the Nobels in Stockholm.

Other Comments by Aussie

26. Comment #13038 by congo on December 15, 2006 at 6:22 am

http://tinyurl.com/yx2tow

Click on the cartoon to enlarge.....

Other Comments by congo

27. Comment #13043 by Logicel on December 15, 2006 at 6:37 am

 avatarCongo, cute cartoon!

Other Comments by Logicel

28. Comment #13048 by BillySands on December 15, 2006 at 6:58 am

 avatarToo True Aussie,
I have been wasting my time trying to understand how the immune system work. I stupidly thought that if we understand it, we can stop it from killing us and develop better vaccines. I should have realised that god designed it the way he did for the purpose of letting us get nasty diseases. What a fool I have been. I now realise that "god did it" and all I need to do to cure diseases is pray James 5:14-15 "Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up."

How dare immunology convincingly trounce ID
http://www.nature.com/ni/journal/v7/n5/full/ni0506-433.html

Other Comments by BillySands

29. Comment #13076 by Thrall on December 15, 2006 at 9:26 am

"Who do you think put the President of the USA into power? And Why?"

I don't want to get into conspiracy theories. I know that companies can throw influence around if something like bush getting elected will affect their bottom line. It's pretty easy to imagine the boardmembers of an oil company saying "we like this boy, he supports oil, let's put all our money into him and Katherine Harris, so they'll help us out too". But I'm not quite sure what bad science has to do with Bush (other than the fact that the White house has blocked several Global Warming papers from being published).

Other Comments by Thrall

30. Comment #13077 by Anmibe on December 15, 2006 at 9:27 am

They're trying to infiltrate Germany as well. The newest incident I know was the proposal of the hessian ministery of culture, a former teacher of ev. religion. She is not against teachings of biblical creation in biology, since the christian theory of creation is something completly different as creationism!
Up to now the lobby of creationists in Germany isn't very strong, but it can change. We've even guys in Germany toping ID: "Viruses doesn't exist", "Viruses aren't responsible for diseases", nice hey?

Just as a referecence (in German):
http://www.spiegel.de/schulspiegel/0,1518,445487,00.html

Other Comments by Anmibe

31. Comment #13089 by Roy_H on December 15, 2006 at 10:37 am

Which countries of the world accept evolution as fact? This Chart is very interesting. U.S.A. of course, is almost at the bottom, next to Turkey.
The top of the heap appears to be Iceland!
http://www.livescience.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=060810_evo_rank_02.jpg&cap=A+chart+showing+public+acceptance+of+evolution+in+34+countries.+The+United+States+ranked+near+the+bottom%2C+beat+only+by+Turkey.+Credit%3A+Science

Other Comments by Roy_H

32. Comment #13090 by Yorker on December 15, 2006 at 10:47 am

 avatar31. Comment #13089 by Roy_H

I recognise that chart. I think it was the one displayed by Mel Konner at the Beyond Belief conference.

Other Comments by Yorker

33. Comment #13092 by Sailnsouth on December 15, 2006 at 11:18 am

In a way it is like facing the Terminator. "He will not sleep...he will not stop...he has no mercy!

This kind of research is funded by purpose-driven organizations with deep pockets that will promote ID advancement regardless of any legitimate outcomes, and squelch any findings that might support evolution.

What politicians and the public will face is avalanche publishing, where numerous pseudo-scientific letters and op ed pieces are sited and the weight of the paper overcomes the weight of their arguments. All one has to do is look at the Google listings for the Discovery Institutes Paul Chien...from that one would think that he is a known expert in paleontology.

Anyone who has posted anything on one of the religious sites may have noticed what I have...you place a concise, well worded comment contrary to some of their views...within an hour there appears a ponderous 4 page dissertation refuting what I've said with footnotes and web site references along with derogatory comments and occasional prayers for my salvation. Those people will now have more to quote from

Other Comments by Sailnsouth

34. Comment #13099 by Zaphod on December 15, 2006 at 12:01 pm

 avatarThe fact that they actually waste time doing "lab science" for this obvious bullshit is incredulous. I have no patience, I have ran out.

Ignorance must surely be bliss for these people.

Other Comments by Zaphod

35. Comment #13100 by seals on December 15, 2006 at 12:04 pm

 avatarI would've thought that the theory of evolution is not an isolated bit of science but is in accordance with other data like carbon dating, geology and fossil records, the adaptation of species to their environment etc. If this is so then in order to disprove the TOE (which would have to be disproved for ID to be valid, or are they playing safe and saying that both theories are in operation?) they would have to show that all the science supporting TOE is wrong too. eg. carbon dating, arent they going to have to show why that should not be a valid method of measuring time? And wouldn't the speed of light have to be wrong...

I mean the stories in the bible don't apply to a spherical earth billions of years old, are they trying to say noah's ark had all the different species that exist on earth today plus all those now extinct like dinosaurs, mammoths, mastodons, smilodons etc? Surely there should not be any new species, even at the microscopic level, if evolution is not happening. How to explain the sudden appearance of antibiotic resistant superbugs, after antibiotics have been in use for a few decades?

This is scary, there does seem to be a lot of ramifications, and who knows where will it lead.

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36. Comment #13102 by Sailnsouth on December 15, 2006 at 12:09 pm

All you have to do is read the "Wedge Document" regarding the ID movement

It shows their step by step plan to overturn Darwinism and materialism.

The only consolation is they are way behind on their timeline

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37. Comment #13135 by Aussie on December 15, 2006 at 7:45 pm

"Which countries of the world accept evolution as fact? This Chart is very interesting. U.S.A. of course, is almost at the bottom, next to Turkey.
The top of the heap appears to be Iceland!"

Roy_H,

I wonder why Australia doesn't figure in the list. Maybe we are too unimportant, too embarrassing, too extreme or were we just simply forgotten. I would hazard a guess that we would be near the top of the list being an ungodly nation of exconvicts. But then again so was the US. Why did the US go in one direction and we in the other.

I am just so glad that we do not have to waste our precious time here fighting these nineteenth century battles to rid our scientific culture of iron age myths. It must be so embarrassing being a rational American knowing that other enlightened Western nations consider such a large portion of the population of your country as culturally anachronistic and scientifically naive.

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38. Comment #13151 by OddJack on December 15, 2006 at 11:00 pm

 avatarTo me, this says it all:
"Ronald Numbers, a historian at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, who has studied creationism, views it in a different light. The lab's existence will help sustain support within the anti-evolution community, he says. 'It will be good for the troops if leaders in the ID movement can claim: 'We're not just talking theory. We have labs, we have real scientists working on this.''"

They can say and claim it, VICTORY! They have a lab AND labcoats...the research is on back order.

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39. Comment #13176 by Anmibe on December 16, 2006 at 4:02 am


35. Comment #13100 by seals on December 15, 2006 at 12:04 pm
[...]
I mean the stories in the bible don't apply to a spherical earth billions of years old, are they trying to say noah's ark had all the different species that exist on earth today plus all those now extinct like dinosaurs, mammoths, mastodons, smilodons etc?
[...]

Yes, they do! First, for them the dinosaurs are described in the bible, according to Hiob 40 ("Behemot"), second noah's ark had their eggs on board. And the best is, they are postulating three different ecosystems with different physical and chemical (sic!) conditions:
System 1: Creation until the flood.
System 2: Flood until return of Jesus Christ
System 3: After the return of Jesus Christ (new sky, new earth and the lion eats grass; read Jes. 65, 25 and Jes. 66, 22)

The extinction of dinosaurs is explained by failed adaption to the new ecosystem after the flood.

When reading some of their texts you don't know whether laugh or to cry. Hard facts? Aren't necessary because it's written in the bible, and what they believe is true!

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40. Comment #13195 by Roy_H on December 16, 2006 at 5:03 am

39. Comment #13176 by Anmibe , I did see one loony Creationist website that stated that it is easy to explain how all the animals got on to the ark....You see Noah took only BABY animals!...so that's alright then! You despair at their mentality sometimes.




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41. Comment #13316 by seals on December 17, 2006 at 2:05 am

 avatarHa! In my ignorance i didn't realise they were thinking about ecosystems when the bible was written. It's a pity that the bible did not contain some practical predictions of dangers awaiting the human race since it seems to be such an all encompassing book. It goes into such detail about lineage, who begat who, the relevance of which escapes me, but make no mention of the new strains of flu virus that emerge every year or so, these must also have been on the ark surely - alongside the superbugs maybe. How were they stored, as so many strains would not be required for a few centuries yet - is there no word about this? (unfortunately i dont have a copy to hand). I'm surprised too if there is no mention of the "almost unicorn" Synthetoceras, and other fascinating extinct creatures, together with explanations for their demise, I'm sure it would have helped their cause no end to explain all this overtly.

*sigh* For ID to be right so much else would have to be wrong.

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