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Sunday, December 24, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

by John Cornwell as God, Times Online

Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2517335.html

Professor Richard Dawkins has caused a sensation this year with the runaway success of his anti-religious book The God Delusion. Here, through the pen of John Cornwell, the Almighty delivers a counterblast

jc as god

Naturally I can appear to my creatures in any form I choose — burning bushes, pillars of fire, bearded Jewish patriarchs, even bread and wine. So imagine Me, if you will, in the guise of a simple monk. Does that surprise you? I have chosen to pen this letter in the cloister where a century and more ago the Austrian priest-scientist Father Gregor Mendel discovered the genetic laws of heredity. Cross-breeding different coloured peas, he performed a series of remarkable experiments that became the basis of the modern age in biology.

Richard, you know better than anybody that Father Mendel was both a scientific genius (to whom you are immensely indebted as a scientist) and a deeply religious man. Mendel was living proof that faith in Me and knowledge of science are not in competition. I hope to persuade you that while science and religion are two very different discourses, they can coexist in harmony.

I've read your book, The God Delusion, which calls for the elimination of religion and belief in Me. I do not wish to berate you; after all, as a poet once wrote, "hatred of God may bring the soul to God". For what many atheists loathe is not God at all but the false representations of Me.

But consider the wise warning of GK Chesterton. When people cease to believe in God, they come to believe not in nothing, but in anything. It's that anything that concerns Me. You recommend in almost every line of the book that your readers should replace Me in their hearts and minds with you.

LET ME begin with your overall thesis. You insist that all claims for My existence are "hypotheses about the universe", and hence the exclusive province of science. What of those traditional rational "proofs" for My existence? Popular to this day is the argument for a Grand Designer God to solve the riddle of nature's exquisite complexities. Could the parts of a watch, or a Boeing 747, fall into place by pure chance? How much less likely the human brain, or a water beetle! Following Charles Darwin's Origin of Species, however, you explain, eloquently and persuasively, how the mystery of design is sufficiently settled by the bottom-up blind laws of evolution.

You then allow that anthropologists are competent to describe what religion is and what religionists do. But only Darwin's theory of evolution, you insist, can offer an ultimate explanation for the true origins of religion.

So you relate what you believe to be a parallel in natural history. A moth navigates by the light of the moon or the stars, but is sometimes attracted by the same conditioned reflexes into a candle-flame. These accidents of self-incineration, you tell your readers, are a "by-product" of a programmed behaviour that is normally advantageous. Religion, you speculate, is also a harmful by-product of an infant's disposition to believe fairy tales that are beneficial. Believing in a big bad wolf may prevent a child straying into the woods. But stories of the hell fires that await naughty children are received with the same credulity in inevitable consequences. Thus religious fictions, with a propensity for fear, bigotry, hatred and violence, take hold of a child's psyche and are passed from generation to generation.

The tragedy for most believers, you argue, is their failure to understand that all are free to reject the religion taught by their parents. You end with the heartening news that once God has been abandoned, "a proper understanding of the magnificence of the real world can fill the inspirational role that religion has historically — and inadequately — usurped".

Without commenting in depth on these arguments, it must be said at once, Richard, that most sensible theologians have no problem with Darwin's theory of evolution, nor with much of what you yourself have written on the wonders of the natural world. You are pushing against an open door. Nor are most children so credulous as to actually believe that they will be eaten by bears if they tread on the pavement cracks. They can, and do, distinguish between the real and the imaginary at a very early age. Most human beings, moreover, are capable of being moved both by nature and the inward stirrings of the spirit without a sense of mutual exclusion.

Let Me start, though, by commenting on the sources you have marshalled for a work that attempts to embrace a vast scope of philosophy, religion, anthropology, and theology.

You have relied far too much on the nice but facile philosopher, Richard Swinburne of Oxford, for Christian theology. On Islam you cite one book, Ibn Warraq's caustic Why I am not a Muslim. Nothing on Judaism, Confucius, Buddhism, Hinduism, or Sufism. Little or nothing, moreover, on your philosophical atheist antecedents since the 18th century. And in support of many amateurish generalisations on anthropology you have mainly resorted to that decaying old monument, Frazer's Golden Bough.

It was no surprise to read Professor Terry Eagleton's acidulous observation: "Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology."

But then, what need of scholarship when in possession of a superior intellect like yours! You are described on the book's dustjacket as "one of the world's top three intellectuals". Not a peer-group verdict, but the opinion poll of a small-circulation, avowedly atheistic, British monthly.

There was a time when Oxford dons prided themselves on modesty — the more learned, the more unassuming. But your self regard, Richard, has assumed bizarre proportions, privately and publicly. Witness the admission that you allowed Mrs Dawkins, the former Lalla Ward of Doctor Who fame, to declaim out loud The God Delusion in its 400-page entirety; not once but twice. As you usefully inform your readers, such a service is best performed by a partner with appropriate speech and drama training.

YOU write that you don't regard religion to be a "proper field in which one might claim expertise". Which is presumably why you saw no reason to acquire any knowledge relating to the topic. Yet you concede that there are eminent scientists who disagree with you, and you cite the eminent cosmologist Professor Sir Martin Rees.

"The pre-eminent mystery," Rees has stated, "is why anything exists at all.

What breathes life into the equations, and actualised them in a real cosmos. Such questions lie beyond science, however; they are the province of philosophers and theologians."

Yet you dismiss this gracious acknowledgment as folly. What fuels your contempt of theology, moreover, is the profound prejudice you once articulated in an earlier work, Climbing Mount Improbable. Let's take a look.

You describe how you attended a lecture about figs in poetry, religion, anthropology. "This kind of thing," you write, "is the stock-in-trade of a certain kind of literary mind, but it provokes me to literal mindedness." The "real poetry", the "real metaphor" lurking in the fig, you argue, is its "Darwinian grammar and logic", Botanical facts are true, whereas the other stuff is made up and hence untrue.

So why not propose, Richard, that King Lear by William Shakespeare (the Bard being of that "certain kind of literary mind" you so much depore) be substituted with psychiatric case notes on senile dementia? Or that Wordsworth's Daffodils be swapped for a horticultural fact sheet? You condescend elsewhere to permit a role for literature in your science-dominated utopia, provided that it is confined to anodyne tropes about "ineffable" sunsets and "sublime" landscapes. But your dogmatic separation of true and false in literature could not be more plain. "The only difference between The Da Vinci Code and the gospels," you pronounce in your new book, "is that the gospels are ancient fiction while The Da Vinci Code is modern fiction."

Logicians characterise the inherent fallacy of such statements as the "undistributed middle". The Da Vinci Code, which is not factual, is pulp fiction; the gospels are not strictly speaking factual, therefore the gospels are pulp fiction. This freshman howler masks an even deeper, and more pernicious, error. You are thereby declaring that there is no sense in which storytellers, poets, dramatists, evangelists can utter truth. Never mind the profound verities of My Son's Sermon on the Mount, what about Chaucer, Shakespeare, Dickens, Dostoevsky . . . the entire canon of world literature. I smell bonfires! On the matter of truth and bonfires, you are right to indict religious believers who have perpetrated persecution and cruelty in my name, both past and present! But would you deny the good performed down the ages by religious believers of every kind? And would you deny the evil done in the name of science and atheism in recent history? How do you see a world without religion? "If the demise of God will leave a gap," you proclaim, ". . . My way includes a good dose of science, the honest and systematic endeavour to find out the truth about the real world."

And you invoke John Lennon's famous song Imagine to conjure up the paradise on earth that will ensue. "Imagine a world with no religion. Imagine no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no 7/7, no Crusades, no witch-hunts . . . no Israeli/Palestinian wars, no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, no persecution of Jews as 'Christ-killers', no Northern Ireland Troubles . . . No Taliban to blow up ancient statues."

Oh please, Richard! Your list, which includes conflicts that are blatantly secular, omits two catastrophic eras in recent history: Stalin's Soviet Union, and Hitler's Germany. So how do you attain a world without them? Are you not aware, Richard, that Stalin's brand of communism found its origin in an idea called dialectical materialism — a self-proclaimed "scientific" and atheistic ideology? Did you never learn that Marx, who characterised religion as the "opium of the people", conjured up a dream of the perfectibility of humankind according to mechanical laws that operate like those of the natural sciences.

Marxist-Leninism, it is well known, provided a powerful impetus for murderous purges of political dissidents and religious believers alike. Under Stalin, Russia saw the devastating implementation of sociobiological principles based on Lamarck — the inheritance of acquired characteristics — legitimising strategies of enforced collectivisation and ruinous systems of agricultural production.

Meanwhile Hitler's appeal to bio-politics evoked images of Jews as parasitical invasions of the host body of Germanhood. Jews were responsible, Nazi propaganda claimed, for actual epidemics in the east requiring immediate quarantine — early euphemisms for the ghettos and the camps.

In the pathological paradox that attends science as salvation, the purveyors of death paraded their cynical pretensions to preserve human life. Which is why I disapprove of your characterisation of religion as a kind of cultural virus, which you call a "meme". In the gleeful claptrap generated around this unproven article of pseudo-scientific faith, religious belief has already been characterised as a viral infection requiring drastic solutions.

Are you not aware that Hitler yearned for religion's capitulation to science? In his rambling table talk he declared that "the dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. When understanding of the universe has become widespread . . . then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity". Familiar, Richard? Hitler and Stalin are a crucial test. In your opinion they were merely unfortunate by-products, the necessary "saw-tooth" of history, you call it, as science and encroaching atheism escort the human race ever onwards and upwards. But you are evidently irritated by suggestions that Hitler is a monstrous exception. Is it because the phenomenon of Hitler threatens your facile optimism? "Hitler's ideas and intentions were not self-evidently more evil that those of Caligula — or some of the Ottoman sultans," you pronounce in an attempt at moral equivalence that wobbles on the brink of mitigation.

Ponder too, Richard, the strange logic of the claim that militant atheism is by definition innocuous. "Hitler and Stalin shared atheism in common," you write. "They both also had moustaches, as does Saddam Hussein. So what?" All three wore socks and underpants, but such banalities betray once again your pitiful lack of background reading.

Hitler cynically played fast and loose with religion, to manipulate the German people. Whenever and wherever he deemed religionists a threat to his own self-idolatry he persecuted them and purged them. Apart from the Jewish genocide, he persecuted and imprisoned hundreds of thousands of Christians, Protestant and Catholic, for their faith.

Stalin's atheism, moreover, was no mere private foible, either. It was a violent feature of his ideology. He oppressed, imprisoned, tortured and murdered the Orthodox faithful, destroying their icons and their churches, throughout the length and breadth of Russia. Mao Tse-tung, another enthusiastic atheist, followed suit, and his anti-religious policies continue to this day in China.

Your failure to acknowledge, still less explore, the consequences of triumphalist atheistic science as ideology undermines your claim to seriousness, Richard. But then, you seem to have a poor grasp of totalitarianism and religious fundamentalism alike, and how they relate to an absence of respect and freedom. Notably missing from your reading is the late John Rawls's study of political science, A Theory of Justice. It might have compensated for the evident absence in your book of studies in political philosophy from Ancient Greece to the present day.

Rawls made a telling distinction between two paths to the "good society". One allows for individuals and groups to choose their own beliefs and values (obviously within the law); the other insists that beliefs and values should be enforced top-down. The former, Rawls defines in the political sphere as a pluralist society; the latter as a totalitarian. There is a corresponding divergence within religions: tolerant faiths that respect difference, and fundamentalist faiths that do not.

IT IS in the context of these two paths, Richard, that you betray both political and historical naivety. You argue, for example, that the "secularism" of the founding fathers of America was a bid to weaken the hold of religious belief on society. Hardly. The genius of the American proposal was its insistence on a state (in other words governmental) secularism that guarantees religious freedoms, including atheism, in a pluralist society.

The importance of understanding, and conserving, that historic experiment could not be more urgent today as President George W Bush attempts to hijack the protective neutrality of America's state secularism with evangelical convictions. Which brings Me to the issue of respect, which, you say, religion does not deserve.

The question is not whether you respect the content of people's faith, Richard, it is whether you respect their right to adopt freely chosen beliefs, within the law, without insult and persecution. There is no more powerful incentive for universal respect than the proposition that all without exception are children of God and find their ultimate destiny in Me.

There are times when a fine line exists between persecution and satire, especially when a powerful majority makes mockery of all that is held sacred by an insecure, hard-pressed minority. But never let it be said that I am unable to enjoy a joke at My own expense! Which brings Me to the debate over creationism, on which you wax heatedly. To adopt such beliefs into the science curriculums of schools would of course be a gross category error. Theology is theology, and science is science, as Father Mendel would have agreed. But you yourself consistently make a striking category error by confusing creationism and the doctrine of creation held by many faiths.

The matter is straightforward: Biblical creationists believe that the Book of Genesis is a source of factual information about the origins of the world. They teach that I literally created all things in a series of instantaneous acts over six days some 5,000 years ago. Most sensible believers in the book subscribe without demur to Darwin's theory of evolution while reading Genesis in the light of the mystery so well articulated by Martin Rees — "Why is there something rather than nothing?" And now, I am bound before I finish to comment on what you call the God Hypothesis. You define God as "a superhuman, supernatural intelligence which deliberately designed and created the universe and everything in it, including us". This is typical of militant atheists who constantly define me purely in terms of the criteria of science alone, rather than in terms of a quest for spiritual contact that becomes a reciprocal loving relationship between creature and creator.

Hence you reduce Me by declaring that "any creative intelligence, of sufficient complexity to design anything (for that is what you think I do all day!) comes into existence only as the end product of an extended process of gradual evolution."

Richard, when theologians attempt to describe My reality (My Mind, say) they are all too well aware of the trap known as anthropomorphism: of treating Me as a human creature. Yet it seems pointless to remind you that thousands of studies have been published on this theme down the centuries. So your consistent image of Me resembles nothing so much as a megalomaniac designer-scientist. Should I say it? Your God resembles a Great Big Professor Dawkins in the sky!

THE sun has gone down and the monks are chanting vespers. I'm reminded, Richard, that you were once a choirboy. Fancy.

The tradition of choral evensong, preserved in the churches and cathedrals of your islands, points back to the rhythm of the monasteries founded by St Benedict in the 6th century. While considering all the hateful things that believers have done down the ages supposedly in My name, you might spare a thought for the monks who lived, and still live, by Benedict's rule.

During the troubled period in Europe known as the Dark Ages, which resemble in many ways the barbarism and fragmentations of the world today, it was the monasteries that preserved civility, education, scholarship, moral intellectual life, care of the poor and the sick, the arts of husbandry, and community building. So. Why don't you occasionally slip into your college chapel for evensong to ponder that thought. It might make you less antagonistic towards religion. And it might help to relax you a little.

For now I bid you farewell. But be assured: you have not heard the last of Me.

Till then I remain yours affectionately, and faithfully

God

Comments 1 - 50 of 144 |

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1. Comment #14707 by John Phillips on December 24, 2006 at 4:41 pm

Another christian who claims to know the mind of god, and they call us atheists arrogant, yawn. However, even assuming that any atheist, RD included, know nothing about theology, why is it necessary to know anything about it to dismiss the existence of a god based purely on the evidence, or rather lack of, presented so far. After all theology presents no evidence for god simply studying the nature of god and the relationship of the human and the divine with the a priori assumption that a god exists.

Not so much a thunderbolt so much as another fizzing squib with the same unproven and misguided assertions with the odd ad hominem thrown in for good measure, i.e. the old same old, same old.

Other Comments by John Phillips

2. Comment #14715 by Jared on December 24, 2006 at 5:11 pm

 avatarI'm sorry. After reading about a quarter of this and hearing absolutely nothing new, I simply cannot rationalize spending any more time on it.

The author claims Richard Dawkins is immodest...um, so taking on the guise of GOD HIMSELF is the height of modesty?

The fact that all of these attacks against Dawkins himself (who CARES if he let his wife read his book aloud???) are being substituted, by and large, for attacks on his logic does two things for me:

First, it shows me that the believers truly do not have solid ground on which to stand and are the ones (as Eagleton said in the title of his own GHASTLY review) lunging, flailing, and mispunching. None of them has yet landed a solid blow.

Second, the increasing frequency of publication of these stale arguments shows that Dawkins has touched a nerve, and that these people are most definitely put off! To me, that can only be a good thing. A book about god's likely non-existence that bothers no-one is an ineffective book.

Thank goodness this debate is back in the public eye. It probably would require more faith in humanity than I have currently to assume that people will recognize Dawkins's superior logic and not simply follow these ill-informed screeds. However, I have little reason to not at least HOPE that some people are seeing through the mist of religious indoctrination and finding more important and tangible things in life than god.

Other Comments by Jared

3. Comment #14721 by Pilot22A on December 24, 2006 at 6:42 pm

"Stalin's atheism, moreover, was no mere private foible, either. It was a violent feature of his ideology. He oppressed, imprisoned, tortured and murdered the Orthodox faithful, destroying their icons and their churches, throughout the length and breadth of Russia. Mao Tse-tung, another enthusiastic atheist, followed suit, and his anti-religious policies continue to this day in China."

So Stalin, clearly a wacko, killed lots of Xians. What's that to do with Evolutionary Biology?

Dawkins "The God Delusion" is worth reading. It has some editing problems and his inclusion of people like Bush and Coulter make for somewhat uncomfortable reading.

Darwinists and evolutionary biologists will never convince believers with logical attacks on religion, and Dawkins may agree here.

What will win converts is the systematical filling of gaps in the evolutionary record, slowly pushing the idea of a creator out.

Other Comments by Pilot22A

4. Comment #14724 by diquea on December 24, 2006 at 7:13 pm

I admire whoever plowed through the entire thing. As far as I got, I thought it was funny that he referred to the Boeing 747 argument, since TGD has a section entitled "The Ultimate Boeing 747."

In any case, I don't suppose there is really any reason to read it all, I'm sure the rest is as redundant as the 747 bit. It was also a rather annoying perspective from which to write the article. If an intelligent god exists, this certainly is an insult to it.

Other Comments by diquea

5. Comment #14729 by Cholmonedeley on December 24, 2006 at 7:37 pm

G_D said:
" Did you never learn that Marx, who characterised religion as the "opium of the people", conjured up a dream of the perfectibility of humankind according to mechanical laws that operate like those of the natural sciences."

Here's the full quote, for your consideration:

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people." --Karl Marx

I hate defending Marx, but the last bit of that quotation is often taken way too far out of context. Maybe, in between castigating Mr. Dawkins for not doing his research and offering only arguments from effect concerning religion, he should have done a little background research.

And although the article contains a good refutation of the notion that Hitler was a Roman Catholic, it dwells just a bit too narrowly on the beliefs of the "top dogs." It's ironic that such an angry defense of religion should include these gems, right next to each other:

"Hitler cynically played fast and loose with religion, to manipulate the German people."

Conveniently exonerating the German people for going along with Hitler. Maybe if religion were as beneficial as the LORD thinks, it would have taught them to be more free-thinking.

"Whenever and wherever he deemed religionists a threat to his own self-idolatry he persecuted them and purged them."

And when they helped Hitler and Stalin, they were rewarded. That religion was on the wrong end of the bayonet was a coincidence of politics and ideology, not inherent opposition to tyranny.

I also took issue with this little bit:

" There is no more powerful incentive for universal respect than the proposition that all without exception are children of God and find their ultimate destiny in Me."

A) The LORD again assigns qualities to religion which are by no means innate to it.
B) That's a matter of opinion. Personally, I think the principle of Self-Ownership is pretty good.

I really never thought that G_D would dance around the question of its existence so thoroughly. But I guess when you can't answer a question, you're already limiting yourself to people who already agree with you, so it doesn't matter.

Other Comments by Cholmonedeley

6. Comment #14742 by denoir on December 24, 2006 at 9:22 pm

 avatarIt's funny how the same logical fallacies are used over and over again by the defenders of theism.

If A belongs to subsets S,T then S is a subset of T.

It's the association fallacy of course. "Stalin was immoral. Stalin was an atheist. Hence atheists are immoral."

Or simply: "Hitler supported A, therefor A is evil."

The other popular one is the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" - after this, therefore because of this, a typical implication fallacy.

"Stalin was an atheist. He murdered may people. Hence Stalin's atheism was the cause for the murdering".

If one would do a checklist with the twenty or so most common logical fallacies, I can guarantee you that a large percentage would be checked in articles like this one. From that point of view, it might actually have some educational value.

I cannot help but find it amazing though is that all of these fallacies were well known and defined in ancient Greece and ancient Rome and yet 2000+ years later people fall for them so easily.

Other Comments by denoir

7. Comment #14745 by Aussie on December 24, 2006 at 9:55 pm

"Hitler cynically played fast and loose with religion, to manipulate the German people. Whenever and wherever he deemed religionists a threat to his own self-idolatry he persecuted them and purged them. Apart from the Jewish genocide, he persecuted and imprisoned hundreds of thousands of Christians, Protestant and Catholic, for their faith."

What I find even more interesting than this is that neither during nor after the war did the Vatican excommunicate even a single one of the many Nazi Catholics responsible for these attrocities.

Other Comments by Aussie

8. Comment #14750 by DV82XL on December 24, 2006 at 10:25 pm

How pompous can you get? But then again how typical - believers of a certain type have always assumed that they are channelling for their deity - the pathetic thing is that there is a constiuancy that swallows this assumption.

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9. Comment #14763 by yokebutt on December 25, 2006 at 12:12 am

Impersonating God, and poorly at that, there's a one-way ticket to Hell if I ever saw one.

Other Comments by yokebutt

10. Comment #14767 by Algebratheist on December 25, 2006 at 12:50 am

 avatarjesus titty fucking christ. there is no god!!!!!!!!!

Another impersonation:
Richard, you are not my child. You have not accepted Christ as your saviour therefore to the lake of fire you go. that is all.

Yet another impersonation: Richard, I am the Totem Pole of a large tribe. You have not recognized me. Therefore you must be hung in the forest upsidedown for 10hrs. If you survive you have a second chance. (who knows if this tribe really exists)

FUCK!

Other Comments by Algebratheist

11. Comment #14768 by Algebratheist on December 25, 2006 at 12:56 am

 avatarDawkins has NEVER said that religion is the ONLY root of evil! Dawkins knows Communism, tribalism, nationalism, etc etc etc are other roots! Dawkins just thinks (rightly) that religion is the only one that cant be criticized. this guy needs to watch the Beyond Belief session with Dawkins, Harris and 2 other guys whose names fled me. its the later one where Harris speaks first.

Other Comments by Algebratheist

12. Comment #14772 by stevencarrwork on December 25, 2006 at 1:42 am

CORNWELl'But consider the wise warning of GK Chesterton. When people cease to believe in God, they come to believe not in nothing, but in anything.'

CARR
More ignorance from a Dawkins-reviewer. Chesterton did not say that.

CORNWELL
'Are you not aware that Hitler yearned for religion's capitulation to science? In his rambling table talk he declared that "the dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. When understanding of the universe has become widespread . . . then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity". '

CARR
I would like to see the original German for that!

I can find no passage in my copy of 'Tischgespraeche', by the original stenographer.

Hitler explicitly denied Darwinism and thought of human beings as specially created by God.

Other Comments by stevencarrwork

13. Comment #14773 by stevencarrwork on December 25, 2006 at 1:44 am

'The profound verities of the Sermon on the Mount'?

What tosh!

Does Cornwell put oil on his head when he fasts?

Other Comments by stevencarrwork

14. Comment #14777 by bottersnike on December 25, 2006 at 2:32 am

This ridiculous article made me cross when I read it yesterday; I noted then that the Times didn't have the nerve to allow comments on it. I hope RD is given space for some sort of response.

Strikes me that this wasn't written by god, but by a man putting thoughts into the mouth of an imaginary being. Much like the bible itself in fact!

Merry Christmas and all that.

Other Comments by bottersnike

15. Comment #14778 by goddogit on December 25, 2006 at 2:51 am

More proof that any God derived from the Bible, and especially the OT, is not simply rot, but ugly, vile rot.

Keep 'em coming, Mr. Cornwall and all you half-assed pretend believers! When Jimmy Carter dies, you will enable me to assume not even one real Christian worthy of respect - intellectually, morally, spiritually - lives any monger upon the planet Earth: just scumbag power-tripping Xians on one side and hollow-men/stuffed-men rationalising Cornwallists trying to impress themselves on the other.

Other Comments by goddogit

16. Comment #14779 by mikejswalker on December 25, 2006 at 3:25 am

pompous, jealous laden, self absorbed, pernicious, facile, history tweaking, hole ridden bucket of piss. God must be knackered after typing such drivel whilst having to remember to capitalize himself all the time. this will piss off atheists and theists alike.

have a peaceful holiday.

Other Comments by mikejswalker

17. Comment #14783 by Lionel A on December 25, 2006 at 4:27 am

 avatarWhat utter tripe from somebody who has the gall to describe Dawkins as 'historically naive' and then go on about The Church in the Dark Ages being a source of comfort for the distressed, what does this excuse for a thinker consider was responsible for the Dark Ages in the first place.

Why can he not grasp that Dawkins has never suggested that he is a substitute for god? How could he for he does not believe in such a fallacious concept as god.

Further, by the misquoting of Richard, he dares to accuse Richard of 'a pitiful lack of background reading.'

That the Times (Sunday at a guess) should go to a double page spread for this dire diatribe, or the best part thereof, demonstrates how this once illustrious paper is descending into the realms of its stablemate the good ol' News of The World, i.e. not to be taken seriously. Hence the reiteration of the tired old arguments WRT Stalin and Hitler.

This article has plumbed new depths in my opinion, otherwise nothing new.

What upsets me is that twits like this are paid, presumably, not inconsiderable sums for this idiocy. I had the wrong job for years it would seem, but at least my mind is easy.

Now to get on with Christmas :-)

Other Comments by Lionel A

18. Comment #14787 by Logicel on December 25, 2006 at 4:41 am

 avatarCirculation for mainstream journalistic vehicles are diminishing along with attendance in traditional churches (pentecostal and evangelical churches in Kenya, Brazil, America are not traditional). I wonder why? Is there something these traditional purveyors of journalism and church services are not getting? Something they have in common? Something they are not willing to provide for their customers?

Other Comments by Logicel

19. Comment #14788 by Seti on December 25, 2006 at 4:50 am

 avatarUsual tosh. Just longer.

Other Comments by Seti

20. Comment #14789 by JohnC on December 25, 2006 at 4:51 am

 avatar"Most sensible believers in the book subscribe without demur to Darwin's theory of evolution ..."

No, they didn't. They just lost the argument (remember Wilberforce) and were forced to change their tune to hold onto their credibility.

"Jews were responsible, Nazi propaganda claimed, for actual epidemics in the east ..."

Jews were responsible, Christian proganda has claimed for 2000 years, for the death of Jesus, forming the ideological foundation for antisemitism.

Other Comments by JohnC

21. Comment #14792 by Kergillian on December 25, 2006 at 5:14 am

 avatarDear God,

Thank you for your responce to Richard Dawkins' The God Delision, however, I have a question.

Did you even read the book?

I know you said you did, and you can't lie, but after reading this, I suspect that you may not have read it. Maybe you just skimmed it. You are God after all, and you are a very busy diety, so maybe you didn't have time to read the whole thing. It would be understandable.

So I urge you to please read it again. All the way through this time and think about it very carefuly.

Afterwards, I don't think even you will believe in you.

Love,

-Jim

PS, Can I have a Playstation 3?

Other Comments by Kergillian

22. Comment #14795 by Irate Harry on December 25, 2006 at 5:37 am

This man Cornwell is the very product of the child abuse that RD talks of. Consider this -

"...Born into a destitute family with a dominating Irish-Catholic mother and an absconding father during World War II in London, John Cornwell's childhood was deeply dysfunctional. When he was thirteen years old he was sent to Cotton College, a remote seminary for boys in the West Midlands countryside. For the next five years Cornwell lived under an austere monastic regime as he wrestled with his emotional and spiritual demons. In the hothouse atmosphere of the seminary he strove to find stable, loving friendships among his fellows and fatherly support from the priests, one of whom proved to be a sexual predator.

The wild countryside around the seminary, the moving power of church ritual and music, and a charismatic priest enabled him to persevere. But while normal teenagers were being swept up by the rock 'n' roll era, Cornwell and his fellow seminarians continued to be emotionally and socially repressed. Secret romantic attachments between seminarians were not uncommon; on visits home they were overwhelmed by the powerful attractions of the emerging youth culture of the 1950s. But when they returned to Cotton College, the boys were once again governed by the age-old traditions and disciplines of seminary life. And like many young seminarians, Cornwell struggled with a natural adolescent rebelliousness, which in one crucial instance provoked a crisis that would eventually lead to his decision to abandon his dream of becoming a priest."


One feels profoundly sorry for the man, but I do not think the crisis of his formative years has passed yet. Cornwell's own smugly sanctimonious christian 'god delusion' (an irresistible double entendre) illustrates the outcome of rape of human intellect by the egregious religious establishment.

Thor, Vishnu, Zeus, Shiva, Wotan and all the other gods must be spitting in their graves, going "Who the f*#& is this late-coming upstart christian god trying to monopolise stupidity? We have been toiling our fingers to the bone for so long...". (Any takers to put their thoughts into words? I am crap at it :-< )

Wish you all a god-free Christmas, thereby peaceful and intellectually enjoyable.

Other Comments by Irate Harry

23. Comment #14798 by Kimpatsu on December 25, 2006 at 6:38 am

 avatarI am sick of this imposter, Cornwall, claiming to write in my name.
Everyone knows that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the One True God.

Other Comments by Kimpatsu

24. Comment #14805 by G Bile on December 25, 2006 at 8:49 am

God quotes:
*"The pre-eminent mystery," Rees has stated, "is why anything exists at all"*
Nothing wrong with this statement, in my opinion. The only thing that can be remarked is: let us be happy that 'something' does exist and just forget about the 'why', because that is completely irrelevant.
But God knows more (another quote):
*"Such questions lie beyond science, however; they are the province of philosophers and theologians."*
Boy, is He wrong. Whatever theologians may say: 'There is a God, there are many Gods' or whatever, even they will never, ever answer the 'why - question' because there will always be a further 'why'.

Other Comments by G Bile

25. Comment #14806 by Fouad Boussetta on December 25, 2006 at 9:50 am

 avatarReligion passes judgment on anything that moves.
Yet to judge it is "arrogant".
That really kills me.
"Judge not lest you be judged"!

Other Comments by Fouad Boussetta

26. Comment #14817 by Lionel A on December 25, 2006 at 12:55 pm

 avatarLogicel:

troublingly it would seem, according to a recent article in The Observer, that the Roman Catholic Church in the UK is bouncing back due to the many migrants comming from Africa, South America and Eastern Europe.

But then these disparate groups in time are more likely to cause fracturing and discord. Watch this space as they say - with some trepidition and a heavy heart.

Other Comments by Lionel A

27. Comment #14818 by Lionel A on December 25, 2006 at 12:56 pm

 avatarIrate Harry thank you for providing a context for the ire of Cornwall, a classic case it would seem, poor fellow.

Other Comments by Lionel A

28. Comment #14822 by IANVS on December 25, 2006 at 2:47 pm

The gods offer no rewards for intellect. There was never one yet that showed any interest in it. -- Mark Twain

www.twainquotes.com/God.html

Other Comments by IANVS

29. Comment #14823 by TearTheRoofOffTheSucker on December 25, 2006 at 3:17 pm

"Hello. I am God. I am going to write you an incredibly long essay about the reasoning behind my existance. but first, I am going to read The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins."

*Reads The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins*

"Oh dear. It appears I don't exist."

*puff*

Bit of a farce that 'God' needs to write an essay on the reasoning behind his existance. "Hi I'm God" is all but too much for him. He needs to spend hours of his precious disaster preventing time (pah!) writing this trail of 'evidence' (drivvel) instead.

I'm aware that that was not necessarily the entire reason for the article; he was just a little pissed at RD for trying to debunk him. On this note, I evaluate that the reasoning behind his existance is somewhat likely to be the ultimate path or purpose of the article. I doubt he would have labelled himself under his name if it wasn't. If however, I am wrong on this idea, then assume that my rants are just about religion in general. I like doing that. After all, I could not be arsed to read the entire passage. The first quarter almost sent me to sleep. The only thing keeping me awake was the ability to debunk it all. Made me feel smart. Although it's likely that his words were rehashes of things I've debunked many times before anyway.

Ahem...

If the existance of God is found through Faith, and reason and science are 'below' the understanding of God, it baffles me that someone would try reasoning his existance. You can't have it both ways. People try and produce evidence for his existance, and as soon as you challenge them with your own, rational response, then evidence goes out the window.

How convenient.

Faith: The most evasive word in the dictionary.

Other Comments by TearTheRoofOffTheSucker

30. Comment #14825 by TearTheRoofOffTheSucker on December 25, 2006 at 3:35 pm

If people were not told about any religions they would not believe in any particular god! They may believe in something divine, but certainly not anything as specific (whilst vague at the same time.... Funny that) as, for example, the Christian God.

On that note, we are ALL born as atheists. Every one of us. That's what makes Atheism unique. At the age of 6 months we do NOT believe in any Gods. Hell we probably can't even perceive Santa Clause for crying out loud.

I have a lot of confidence in the notion that someone who does not believe in any particular religious belief, would/does NOT break down and kill themselves at any dark moment. They cling to something else; family, friends, sense of one's self, belief in one's self, reassurance, love for life, love for nature, philosophy etc.

I think this introduces the idea that people 'needing' religion is an illusion. It is an illusion provided by the fact that religion serves as possibly the only form of solid grounding for them to lean on. It's number 1 priority in their mind and they choose to cling to it in times of need. The reason it is an illusion, is that they most likely didn't NEED it at all. It was just the dominant 'option' at the time. Had they not believed/known in/about religion, they certainly wouldn't NEED religion. Hell I don't. Why does anybody else?

Many people claim to have needed religion in dark times, but fail to realize that it is merely ONE form of help or reassurance. It's just that they are under the illusion that without it, they would not survive; that it is the ONLY form of help or reassurance. It is all important. That's the power of religion. The power that it portrays itself as all important fact.

Well, it's not, as far as I'm concerned. God can stick his scribblings up his back passage sideways.

Other Comments by TearTheRoofOffTheSucker

31. Comment #14826 by Tremayne on December 25, 2006 at 4:02 pm

"When people cease to believe in God, they come to believe not in nothing, but in anything."

Utter nonsense. Reiterating inane aphorisms demonstrates that the unenlightened Mr. Cornwell is blinded by his own blind faith. The word skeptic is quintessentially non-theist.


"...blind laws" versus "blind faith;" (for the sake of argument let's assume "blind laws" is an accurate description, though 'undiscovered natural laws' or perhaps even "pre-eminent mystery" would be more appropriate terms,) the better choice should be intuitively obvious.

"Nor are most children so credulous as to actually believe that they will be eaten by bears if they tread on the pavement cracks. They can, and do, distinguish between the real and the imaginary at a very early age."

Such myopic statements underestimate the power of a naïve or superstitious mind, which all too often persists well into adulthood.

"What breathes life into the equations, and actualised them in a real cosmos. Such questions lie beyond science, however; they are the province of philosophers and theologians."

Would Mr. Cornwell completely forego science on matters of mathematics and the cosmos in favor of philosophical hypotheses and speculation? Such anachronistic attitudes are the provenance of Dark Ages mentality.

"Imagine a world with no religion. Imagine no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no 7/7, no Crusades, no witch-hunts . . . no Israeli/Palestinian wars, no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, no persecution of Jews as 'Christ-killers', no Northern Ireland Troubles . . . No Taliban to blow up ancient statues.""


"Your list, which includes conflicts that are blatantly secular, omits two catastrophic eras in recent history: Stalin's Soviet Union, and Hitler's Germany. So how do you attain a world without them? Are you not aware, Richard, that Stalin's brand of communism found its origin in an idea called dialectical materialism — a self-proclaimed "scientific" and atheistic ideology?"

Mr. Cornwell's unmitigated aversion to dialectics is unmistakable by his bellicose 'guilt by association' retort.


That Mr. Cornwell would have any rational person believe his assertion that 'suicide bombers, 9/11, 7/7, the Crusades, witch-hunts, the Israeli/Palestinian wars, the Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, the persecution of Jews, the Northern Ireland hostilities, the Taliban destroying ancient Buddhist statues, as well as the Thirty Years War, the democides of Armenia, Darfur, and Rwanda, etc.,' were "blatantly secular" and devoid of any ascendant religious component is incredulous and utter propaganda! Any rational person could not help but conclude from Mr. Cornwell's statements that he suffers from delusion and self denial. Furthermore, Mr. Cornwell, those leaders or countries that have (or had) the power to intervene militarily (when appropriate) and choose (or chose) to remain uncommitted must bear much guilt and shame for their apathy and inaction.


Mr. Cornwell demonstrates a particular fondness for historical revisionism...


Regarding Joseph Stalin he was first and foremost a paranoid ideologue, oppressive totalitarian and despot. The famine that resulted from Stalin's failed institutionalized collective farming, nor the forced famine of the Ukrainians, or many of his "murderous purges," of which intellectuals, scientists and non-theists were equally made victims, was neither motivated nor justified by his absence of religion. Like most unyielding extremist autocrats he had a pathological obsession for power and control (sound familiar?) and anyone who opposed his will often paid a heavy price.


Hitler is hardly the "atheist" that Mr. Cornwell desires. Unlike many of his fellow Germans Hitler was not personally religious, (he himself had great disdain for Christianity believing it to be an invention of the Jew,) however he was unequivocally a deist and he believed in an almighty Creator.

"One may ask whether the disappearance of Christianity would entail the disappearance of belief in God. That's not to be desired. The notion of divinity gives most men the opportunity to concretize the feeling they have of supernatural realities."

"Man has discovered in nature the wonderful notion of that almighty being whose law he worships."

"We do not want to educate anyone in atheism."

~ Adolf Hitler

It is lamentable that we must once again bear witness to further subterfuge and sophistry by the self-righteous status quo as embodied by Mr. John Cornwell's inurbane demagoguery.




Other Comments by Tremayne

32. Comment #14828 by Martha on December 25, 2006 at 4:15 pm

 avatarHaving read this article from start to finish, that old song came to mind: "O Lord its hard to be Humble, when your're Perfect in every way (to know me is to love me, and I get better looking each day!" Great song!

Cornwell is obviously jealous of Dawkins; hates him with the vengeance of the religious zealot that he is... bet he sang REAL LOUD at midnight mass last night! LOL

Other Comments by Martha

33. Comment #14829 by Martha on December 25, 2006 at 4:32 pm

 avatarIRATE HARRY Comment No. 14795:- "One feels profoundly sorry for the man, but I do not think the crisis of his formative years has passed yet. Cornwell's own smugly sanctimonious christian 'god delusion' (an irresistible double entendre) illustrates the outcome of rape of human intellect by the egregious religious establishment."

Thanks Harry, for putting up that extract from Cornwells' recent biography, which I alos read. Yes, you're right in your observation that he is stuck in the emotional crisis of his formative years, big time!

... and I send my Seasonal Greetings to you too!
Martha

Other Comments by Martha

34. Comment #14830 by Martha on December 25, 2006 at 5:07 pm

 avatarComment 14825 TearTheRoofOffTheSucker:

"..we are ALL born as atheists. Every one of us."

Absolutely right!

Other Comments by Martha

35. Comment #14833 by Veronique on December 25, 2006 at 6:33 pm

 avatarAnother infuriatingly smug person. Look at the language he uses!! The arrogance of this piece takes my breath away.

Thanks IrateHarry 14795 for supplying a background for this man.

I am getting sick of these silly reviews and interviews. I have been out of the loop for so long now that I am reacting as if I were in my 30s. And I am not. I'm 63 and the fire in my belly is starting to ignite again.

Using god as his deliverer is the weirdest convention for Cornwall to use in his diatribe. It is patently obvious he has not read RD's TGD with any sort of critical ability whatsoever.

The man is nut.

Other Comments by Veronique

36. Comment #14842 by hmsbeagle3 on December 25, 2006 at 8:30 pm

Yes, yes Cornwell, because Hitler (maybe) and Stalin (likely) were atheists, than all other atheists MUST subscribe to their psychotic interpretation of reality. Only through the distorted lens of hyper-religiosity could one churn out such nonsense. I feel for those of the Ted Haggard flock, all of whom no doubt abuse crystal meth and enjoy taking it up-the-ass, as it were.

Pardon the vulgarity, but it pales in comparison to that endorsed by these nutjobs.

Merry Christmas to all:)

Other Comments by hmsbeagle3

37. Comment #14843 by Muhammed Thor Kershberg on December 25, 2006 at 8:32 pm

Just a few questions, umm...god:
1. Why did you create Hitler, Stalin, and Dawkins?
2. Who's your daddy?
3. If you are omnipotent, why not put an end to all this bickering by say, appearing on Larry King Live, or at least Jerry Springer (instead of sending Mary to show up in a Mississippi taco)?
4. When you have a moment, please drop by http://www.skepticreport.com/creationism/thingscreationistshate.htm
and set us straight would ya? (Oh yeah, and why did you have that list created again?)

Thanks
Oh and Happy Birthday to that hippy bastard

Other Comments by Muhammed Thor Kershberg

38. Comment #14844 by Nikki on December 25, 2006 at 8:42 pm

John Cornwell as God
Nascistic, long winded and incorporating all the same old repeated fallacies proclaimed by the jesusists/godists in the past.
Nothing more than a mental wank to try and force himself on anyone who bothers to read it.
You'd think god could make it's point in a newspaper article using less than 3085 words.

Other Comments by Nikki

39. Comment #14845 by Nikki on December 25, 2006 at 8:46 pm

39. Comment #14843 by Muhammed Thor Kershberg
'Oh and Happy Birthday to that hippy bastard'

Oh, would that be the one whose actual birth date, no one appears to be aware/sure of?

Other Comments by Nikki

40. Comment #14846 by EvolvedDNA on December 25, 2006 at 9:07 pm

Hi God, You saw Dr.Who..in Heaven? was it on an HD set before we mortals had it down here.. also did you watch any of those TV evangelists at all.. do you know they say that the world is only 6000 yr old!!! well of course you would right. Try to sort them out.. they appear to be giving your side a bad name. Maybe drop in one Sunday morning and set them straight.

Other Comments by EvolvedDNA

41. Comment #14849 by Nikki on December 26, 2006 at 12:05 am

42.Comment #14846 by EvolvedDNA

RAmen EvolvedDNA

Well I guess that just gave away my 'unitelligent design' agenda away, didn't it?
I am obviously not an atheist, but instead, a true/firm believer in His Noodleyness, the One and only True God, the Flyng Spaghetti Monster!
Guess I have just outed myself on this forum as an theist, huh?
Bugga!!!!!
You get that on the small jobs, don't you?




Other Comments by Nikki

42. Comment #14850 by Nikki on December 26, 2006 at 12:35 am

Oh ...and mental wanker (aka John Cornwell), let's play molecular biology/genetics next time! I so enjoy that rhetoric/game so much more than the tired old one, which you and your ilk dribble out over and over again.
Happy pagan Holiday festival to you and yours :)

Other Comments by Nikki

43. Comment #14853 by Richard Dawkins on December 26, 2006 at 2:09 am

John Cornwell has taken some stick for his impersonation of God. He is obviously a religious man, and his negativity towards The God Delusion may reflect his disappointment after his generous and positive review of my previous book, The Ancestor's Tale. The contrast between Cornwell's assessments of the two books reflects, in my view, the unique power of religion to distort an otherwise intelligent man's view of the world. But to him, no doubt, it reflects the need for scientists to stay firmly in their own field and not trespass into theology. Obviously I disagree profoundly, and I see the two books as part of a seamless continuum. But I thought it might be interesting to reproduce Cornwell's review of the other book here.
Richard


The Sunday Times - Books


September 12, 2004

The Ancestor's Tale by Richard Dawkins
REVIEWED BY JOHN CORNWELL


THE ANCESTOR'S TALE: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Life
by Richard Dawkins

Weidenfeld £25 pp528

When Richard Dawkins was a small child in Africa, his father, detectable only by his luminous watch in the equatorial darkness, regaled Richard and his sister with bedtime stories as they lay under their mosquito nets. He told them of a "Broncosaurus" that lived "faaaaaaaaaaar away in a place called Gonwonky-land". Dawkins forgot about this until he learnt of the great southern continent known as Gondwanaland, or Gondwana. One hundred and fifty million years ago, Gondwanaland incorporated what we now know as South America, Africa, Arabia, Antarctica, Australasia, Madagascar and India. The southern tip of Africa was at that time in contact with a warm and wooded Antarctica, so there was a triangular gap between the east coast of Africa and north coast of Antarctica that was filled by India.

Dawkins goes on to relate that in the central region of Madhya Pradesh, where the Gonds live, there is a place called Gondwana; the word comes from the Sanskrit vana, which means land, or forest. The purpose of this mix of personal reminiscence, geography and language is the background it provides for Dawkins's discussion of the ratite, the flightless group of running and walking birds &#8212; such as ostriches, emus and cassowaries. The group, which also included the prodigious elephant bird, travelled and settled throughout the vast geographical expanse of that early continent, which explains how they have turned up, without being able to fly, as fossils and living survivors in regions now separated by the oceans. With allusions to the fables of Sinbad, and the giant moa (the elephant bird's rival for size), Dawkins wants us to know that his instincts as an evolutionary theorist would normally lead him to suppose that the ratite group emerged from parallel pressures of natural selection and adaptation in different places on the planet. "Alas," he writes, "this is not so. The true tale of the ratites . . . is a tale of Gondwana, and of continental drift or, as it is now called, plate tectonics."

Dawkins's new book, which is fabulous in many more ways than one, is a picaresque account of evolution running in reverse as a series of wondrous tales of explanation, from man to the amoeba, interspersed with anecdotes, and a huge circuit of reference to mythology, literature, nonsense verse and history. Lavishly illustrated, and brilliantly signposted, with something to amaze on every page, it will be a hard book for non-scientists to put down. There is not a scientist writing today who expounds his subject for the lay reader with such scintillating clarity and sheer politesse for the limits of the non-specialist.

Dawkins has cast his narrative as a kind of Chaucerian pilgrimage, with different groups and species telling their tales. He might just as well have taken the Arabian Nights tales as his model. The marvels, oddities and mysteries tumble out, one after another, with fascinating, sometimes hilarious asides: the origin of your prehensile tail, the infrared optics of pit snakes, the radar in the beak of the platypus, flying frogs, why humans are hairless (more or less), the phenomenon of lungfish, the peculiarity of the giant redwood (remember Ronald Reagan's "You've seen one, you've seen them all"), the wonky-eyed jewel fish, why westerners think Chinese people look more alike than westerners, the five-eyed crustacean of the Burgess Shale. And that big, vexing question: is evolution progressive? Is it value-free? In his discussion about anthropomorphic values, I loved his suggestion that an ancestor's tale written by an elephant would see "proboscitude" as the quintessence of progress.

His mischievousness is irrepressible, and certain to deny him a knighthood under a Labour government. Take his theory of our shift from quadruped to biped. Dawkins believes it was simply an ostentatious quirk, possibly the gimmick of a cocky male to show off his penis. Then it became contagious, as walks do; and he cites a special walk at his school, Oundle. As the senior boys paraded into the chapel, he tells us, they acted out a mixture of swagger and lumbering roll that behavioural bio- logists call "dominance display". Then comes a typical Dawkins aside. "At the time of writing," he declares, "the abject sycophancy of the British prime minister to the US president has earned him the title Bush's Poodle . . . he imitates Bush's macho cowboy swagger, with arms held out to the sides as though ready to reach for two pistols."

Despite the fun and the fantasy chit-chat between species and genes that abound, I am convinced that the serious student will find this book not only extremely useful but essential. A biologist colleague at Cambridge complains that, while it is admirable that every candidate for admission to the biological sciences has read at least one of Dawkins's books, the tragedy is that few of them have read anything else. His grievance, I suspect, should be less about Dawkins than the failure of his colleagues to write similarly readable studies.

This new book, however, makes generous and readable reference throughout the text to the research and ideas of a veritable army of biologists and other specialists in the fields of botany, zoology, ethnography, anthropology, neuroscience and natural history. Dawkins's acknowledgment of his researcher, Yan Wong, is everywhere apparent. I doubt whether Dawkins has ever written a book so eminently pluralist in the sense that he makes it clear on every page that evolutionary biology does not speak with a single and oracular voice.

It would not be a Dawkins work, of course, if he did not have a go at religion. "My objection to supernatural beliefs," he growls at the end of the book, "is precisely that they miserably fail to do justice to the sublime grandeur of the real world. They represent a narrowing down from reality, an impoverishment of what the real world has to offer." This is twaddle. Throughout the history of human kind it is precisely the sublime grandeur of the real world that has raised the hearts and minds of poets, musicians, mystics and religionists of every kind towards intimations of something beyond. It is strange that Dawkins, so sensitive to a wide range of mythology and literature, never picked that up from the psalms that he sang routinely as a choirboy. Had Dawkins taken a leaf out of Chaucer's book on the question of religion, he might have tempered his detestation with just a small degree of enlightened patience, if not understanding. But he is certainly right about one thing: the creationists' attempts to substitute Genesis for scientific explanation is not only ludicrous but dangerous.

Supernatural hobby-horses apart, I have just one serious quarrel with the book, which is the difficulty of reading it in bed. I note that at nearly 4kg it is a whole kilogram heavier than my hardback F N Robinson edition of The Works of Chaucer, which has twice as many pages and is printed on high-quality paper. Fans of Dawkins, and I now count myself as one of them, may wish to invest in a lectern.

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

44. Comment #14855 by stevencarrwork on December 26, 2006 at 2:28 am

CORNWELL writes 'Whenever and wherever he deemed religionists a threat to his own self-idolatry he persecuted them and purged them.'

CARR
Well, to be fair to Hitler, Christians like Dietrich Bonhoeffer did try to blow him up.

Hitler could hardly have expected the followers of a religion which said 'Love your enemies', 'Turn the other cheek', and 'resist not evil' to carry out an act of murder.

There is another quote of Chesterton's which is relevant here 'The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.'

Other Comments by stevencarrwork

45. Comment #14870 by CitizenPaine on December 26, 2006 at 7:11 am

John Cornwell can certainly change his mind. He began, by his own admission, the research for his book, "Hitler's Pope", with the object of protecting Pope Pius XII's reputation from imputations of wrong doing with regard to the Jewish population of Europe during WW2. He even states that it was his Catholic background that allowed Vatican archive doors to be opened for him.

Then his research led him to write a completely different book, one that is severely critical of the pope's behaviour in the matter.

Now, his current position, if his entry in Wikipedia is to be believed, has changed back again:

'Five years after the publication of Hitler's Pope, Cornwell has somewhat modified his views: "I would now argue, in the light of the debates and evidence following 'Hitler's Pope', that Pius XII had so little scope of action that it is impossible to judge the motives for his silence during the war, while Rome was under the heel of Mussolini and later occupied by the (sic) Germany."'

Which is exactly what defenders of Pius XII had been saying since the war.

Other Comments by CitizenPaine

46. Comment #14871 by Simon Quick on December 26, 2006 at 7:32 am

Letter to the Times, 26. Dec 06

Dear God!

That's an expletive note, not a salutation. I was of the opinion that you were meant to be omniscient and not, jealous self-centred, illogical, self-pretentious, and a child-like name caller. Your criticism of Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion smacks of sour-grapes god, at being found out to be a fake. To pick up on just a few of your 'in-omniscient' ramblings:

You seem to forget that in science hundreds of book are written with theories base on previous models; new books build on, or dispute previous books and our knowledge advances. On the other hand, hundreds of books are written about you, all discuss the same thing, in different ways, and finally the your version takes precedent, knowledge stagnates.
Thus, Eagleton's observation is actually a good one. One only needs one book to know you god - assuming you are one of the 4 book-based gods - all the others are the equivalent of your marketing and merchandising campaign; 'the making of', so to say.

God you are so inconsistent! You dismiss the use of simple logic - A is B and B is C therefore A is C - rather disparagingly against Dawkins, regarding 'pulp fiction and the gospels' etc. Yet a few paragraphs later, use the same logic to justify your own argument when discussing Hitler and Stalin. Hitler and Stalin were atheists, atheists are pathological despots therefore Hitler and Stalin are pathological despots. It was not like that god. Hitler and Stalin did what they did, not because they were atheists, but because they were pathological despots. I might ask you god, where the hell were you at this time? Taking the moral high ground no doubt!

I could go on god, but suffice to say its clear why you take such an affront; religion is about pathological depot figures like you, god. Spirituality on the other hand, which many, Dawkins included, accept requires no god, despot or otherwise. God, like Hitler and Stalin before you, you've had your time, it's over, accept it. In fact, go now before you do what they did and make a complete fool of yourself.

Merry Mithras-mas god, yours sincerely

Simon Quick

Other Comments by Simon Quick

47. Comment #14875 by DerrickB on December 26, 2006 at 8:23 am

A Christmas Message:

We all believed in Father Christmas. Our parents and our teachers told us to believe in Him. Father Christmas knew when we had been good or bad. He wanted each of us to petition Him with lists of our desires. Sometimes He answered, and sometimes He didn't. Still we didn't question Him - Santa has his reasons. We had to believe that He could be everywhere at one time. And still we didn't question Him – Santa has his mysterious ways. But gradually the questions began to nag and doubts became harder to ignore. Our brains developed and our eyes opened. We came to realise that evidence could challenge blind faith. And most of us learnt that becoming an adult means giving up the infant comforts of received beliefs and unquestioning obedience. Growing up offers the opportunity to apprehend and appreciate the unbounded wonders of the universe through open minds. Growing up uncovers our evolved abilities of reason and explanation. As grown-ups we carry a responsibility to help those who still fear the light of truth to break free from the cocoons of their childish fantasies.

Other Comments by DerrickB

48. Comment #14887 by HappyPrimate on December 26, 2006 at 11:53 am

 avatarAfter reading the whole of the article, Mr. Cornwell (or was it God) comes off as arrogant and not very well read.

Really enjoyed TGD! Thanks RD.

RH in Baton Rouge, LA

Other Comments by HappyPrimate

49. Comment #14893 by Nikki on December 26, 2006 at 12:40 pm

Mr. Cornwell (or was it God)


Ah, but which god?

Other Comments by Nikki

50. Comment #14901 by TearTheRoofOffTheSucker on December 26, 2006 at 3:03 pm

Comment #14875 by DerrickB

That comment should be framed. Utterly excellent.

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