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Sunday, January 21, 2007 | Science : Psychiatry and Psychology | print version Print | Comments

Document The Mystery of Consciousness

by Steven Pinker

Reposted from:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1580394-1,00.html

Thanks to Marc Epard for alerting us.

The young women had survived the car crash, after a fashion. In the five months since parts of her brain had been crushed, she could open her eyes but didn't respond to sights, sounds or jabs. In the jargon of neurology, she was judged to be in a persistent vegetative state. In crueler everyday language, she was a vegetable.

So picture the astonishment of British and Belgian scientists as they scanned her brain using a kind of MRI that detects blood flow to active parts of the brain. When they recited sentences, the parts involved in language lit up. When they asked her to imagine visiting the rooms of her house, the parts involved in navigating space and recognizing places ramped up. And when they asked her to imagine playing tennis, the regions that trigger motion joined in. Indeed, her scans were barely different from those of healthy volunteers. The woman, it appears, had glimmerings of consciousness.

Try to comprehend what it is like to be that woman. Do you appreciate the words and caresses of your distraught family while racked with frustration at your inability to reassure them that they are getting through? Or do you drift in a haze, springing to life with a concrete thought when a voice prods you, only to slip back into blankness? If we could experience this existence, would we prefer it to death? And if these questions have answers, would they change our policies toward unresponsive patients--making the Terri Schiavo case look like child's play?

The report of this unusual case last September was just the latest shock from a bracing new field, the science of consciousness. Questions once confined to theological speculations and late-night dorm-room bull sessions are now at the forefront of cognitive neuroscience. With some problems, a modicum of consensus has taken shape. With others, the puzzlement is so deep that they may never be resolved. Some of our deepest convictions about what it means to be human have been shaken.

It shouldn't be surprising that research on consciousness is alternately exhilarating and disturbing. No other topic is like it. As René Descartes noted, our own consciousness is the most indubitable thing there is. The major religions locate it in a soul that survives the body's death to receive its just deserts or to meld into a global mind. For each of us, consciousness is life itself, the reason Woody Allen said, "I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve it by not dying." And the conviction that other people can suffer and flourish as each of us does is the essence of empathy and the foundation of morality.

To make scientific headway in a topic as tangled as consciousness, it helps to clear away some red herrings. Consciousness surely does not depend on language. Babies, many animals and patients robbed of speech by brain damage are not insensate robots; they have reactions like ours that indicate that someone's home. Nor can consciousness be equated with self-awareness. At times we have all lost ourselves in music, exercise or sensual pleasure, but that is different from being knocked out cold.

THE "EASY" AND "HARD" PROBLEMS

What remains is not one problem about consciousness but two, which the philosopher David Chalmers has dubbed the Easy Problem and the Hard Problem. Calling the first one easy is an in-joke: it is easy in the sense that curing cancer or sending someone to Mars is easy. That is, scientists more or less know what to look for, and with enough brainpower and funding, they would probably crack it in this century.

What exactly is the Easy Problem? It's the one that Freud made famous, the difference between conscious and unconscious thoughts. Some kinds of information in the brain--such as the surfaces in front of you, your daydreams, your plans for the day, your pleasures and peeves--are conscious. You can ponder them, discuss them and let them guide your behavior. Other kinds, like the control of your heart rate, the rules that order the words as you speak and the sequence of muscle contractions that allow you to hold a pencil, are unconscious. They must be in the brain somewhere because you couldn't walk and talk and see without them, but they are sealed off from your planning and reasoning circuits, and you can't say a thing about them.

The Easy Problem, then, is to distinguish conscious from unconscious mental computation, identify its correlates in the brain and explain why it evolved.

The Hard Problem, on the other hand, is why it feels like something to have a conscious process going on in one's head--why there is first-person, subjective experience. Not only does a green thing look different from a red thing, remind us of other green things and inspire us to say, "That's green" (the Easy Problem), but it also actually looks green: it produces an experience of sheer greenness that isn't reducible to anything else. As Louis Armstrong said in response to a request to define jazz, "When you got to ask what it is, you never get to know."

The Hard Problem is explaining how subjective experience arises from neural computation. The problem is hard because no one knows what a solution might look like or even whether it is a genuine scientific problem in the first place. And not surprisingly, everyone agrees that the hard problem (if it is a problem) remains a mystery.

Although neither problem has been solved, neuroscientists agree on many features of both of them, and the feature they find least controversial is the one that many people outside the field find the most shocking. Francis Crick called it "the astonishing hypothesis"--the idea that our thoughts, sensations, joys and aches consist entirely of physiological activity in the tissues of the brain. Consciousness does not reside in an ethereal soul that uses the brain like a PDA; consciousness is the activity of the brain.

THE BRAIN AS MACHINE

Scientistgs have exorcised the ghost from the machine not because they are mechanistic killjoys but because they have amassed evidence that every aspect of consciousness can be tied to the brain. Using functional MRI, cognitive neuroscientists can almost read people's thoughts from the blood flow in their brains. They can tell, for instance, whether a person is thinking about a face or a place or whether a picture the person is looking at is of a bottle or a shoe.

And consciousness can be pushed around by physical manipulations. Electrical stimulation of the brain during surgery can cause a person to have hallucinations that are indistinguishable from reality, such as a song playing in the room or a childhood birthday party. Chemicals that affect the brain, from caffeine and alcohol to Prozac and LSD, can profoundly alter how people think, feel and see. Surgery that severs the corpus callosum, separating the two hemispheres (a treatment for epilepsy), spawns two consciousnesses within the same skull, as if the soul could be cleaved in two with a knife.

And when the physiological activity of the brain ceases, as far as anyone can tell the person's consciousness goes out of existence. Attempts to contact the souls of the dead (a pursuit of serious scientists a century ago) turned up only cheap magic tricks, and near death experiences are not the eyewitness reports of a soul parting company from the body but symptoms of oxygen starvation in the eyes and brain. In September, a team of Swiss neuroscientists reported that they could turn out-of-body experiences on and off by stimulating the part of the brain in which vision and bodily sensations converge.

THE ILLUSION OF CONTROL

Another startling conclusion from the science of consciousness is that the intuitive feeling we have that there's an executive "I" that sits in a control room of our brain, scanning the screens of the senses and pushing the buttons of the muscles, is an illusion. Consciousness turns out to consist of a maelstrom of events distributed across the brain. These events compete for attention, and as one process outshouts the others, the brain rationalizes the outcome after the fact and concocts the impression that a single self was in charge all along.

Take the famous cognitive-dissonance experiments. When an experimenter got people to endure electric shocks in a sham experiment on learning, those who were given a good rationale ("It will help scientists understand learning") rated the shocks as more painful than the ones given a feeble rationale ("We're curious.") Presumably, it's because the second group would have felt foolish to have suffered for no good reason. Yet when these people were asked why they agreed to be shocked, they offered bogus reasons of their own in all sincerity, like "I used to mess around with radios and got used to electric shocks."

It's not only decisions in sketchy circumstances that get rationalized but also the texture of our immediate experience. We all feel we are conscious of a rich and detailed world in front of our eyes. Yet outside the dead center of our gaze, vision is amazingly coarse. Just try holding your hand a few inches from your line of sight and counting your fingers. And if someone removed and reinserted an object every time you blinked (which experimenters can simulate by flashing two pictures in rapid sequence), you would be hard pressed to notice the change. Ordinarily, our eyes flit from place to place, alighting on whichever object needs our attention on a need-to-know basis. This fools us into thinking that wall-to-wall detail was there all along--an example of how we overestimate the scope and power of our own consciousness.

Our authorship of voluntary actions can also be an illusion, the result of noticing a correlation between what we decide and how our bodies move. The psychologist Dan Wegner studied the party game in which a subject is seated in front of a mirror while someone behind him extends his arms under the subject's armpits and moves his arms around, making it look as if the subject is moving his own arms. If the subject hears a tape telling the person behind him how to move (wave, touch the subject's nose and so on), he feels as if he is actually in command of the arms.

The brain's spin doctoring is displayed even more dramatically in neurological conditions in which the healthy parts of the brain explain away the foibles of the damaged parts (which are invisible to the self because they are part of the self). A patient who fails to experience a visceral click of recognition when he sees his wife but who acknowledges that she looks and acts just like her deduces that she is an amazingly well-trained impostor. A patient who believes he is at home and is shown the hospital elevator says without missing a beat, "You wouldn't believe what it cost us to have that installed."

Why does consciousness exist at all, at least in the Easy Problem sense in which some kinds of information are accessible and others hidden? One reason is information overload. Just as a person can be overwhelmed today by the gusher of data coming in from electronic media, decision circuits inside the brain would be swamped if every curlicue and muscle twitch that was registered somewhere in the brain were constantly being delivered to them. Instead, our working memory and spotlight of attention receive executive summaries of the events and states that are most relevant to updating an understanding of the world and figuring out what to do next. The cognitive psychologist Bernard Baars likens consciousness to a global blackboard on which brain processes post their results and monitor the results of the others.

BELIEVING OUR OWN LIES

A second reason that information may be sealed off from consciousness is strategic. Evolutionary biologist Robert Trivers has noted that people have a motive to sell themselves as beneficent, rational, competent agents. The best propagandist is the one who believes his own lies, ensuring that he can't leak his deceit through nervous twitches or self-contradictions. So the brain might have been shaped to keep compromising data away from the conscious processes that govern our interaction with other people. At the same time, it keeps the data around in unconscious processes to prevent the person from getting too far out of touch with reality.

What about the brain itself? You might wonder how scientists could even begin to find the seat of awareness in the cacophony of a hundred billion jabbering neurons. The trick is to see what parts of the brain change when a person's consciousness flips from one experience to another. In one technique, called binocular rivalry, vertical stripes are presented to the left eye, horizontal stripes to the right. The eyes compete for consciousness, and the person sees vertical stripes for a few seconds, then horizontal stripes, and so on.

A low-tech way to experience the effect yourself is to look through a paper tube at a white wall with your right eye and hold your left hand in front of your left eye. After a few seconds, a white hole in your hand should appear, then disappear, then reappear.

Monkeys experience binocular rivalry. They can learn to press a button every time their perception flips, while their brains are impaled with electrodes that record any change in activity. Neuroscientist Nikos Logothetis found that the earliest way stations for visual input in the back of the brain barely budged as the monkeys' consciousness flipped from one state to another. Instead, it was a region that sits further down the information stream and that registers coherent shapes and objects that tracks the monkeys' awareness. Now this doesn't mean that this place on the underside of the brain is the TV screen of consciousness. What it means, according to a theory by Crick and his collaborator Christof Koch, is that consciousness resides only in the "higher" parts of the brain that are connected to circuits for emotion and decision making, just what one would expect from the blackboard metaphor.

WAVES OF BRAIN

Consciousness in the brain can be tracked not just in space but also in time. Neuroscientists have long known that consciousness depends on certain frequencies of oscillation in the electroencephalograph (EEG). These brain waves consist of loops of activation between the cortex (the wrinkled surface of the brain) and the thalamus (the cluster of hubs at the center that serve as input-output relay stations). Large, slow, regular waves signal a coma, anesthesia or a dreamless sleep; smaller, faster, spikier ones correspond to being awake and alert. These waves are not like the useless hum from a noisy appliance but may allow consciousness to do its job in the brain. They may bind the activity in far-flung regions (one for color, another for shape, a third for motion) into a coherent conscious experience, a bit like radio transmitters and receivers tuned to the same frequency. Sure enough, when two patterns compete for awareness in a binocular-rivalry display, the neurons representing the eye that is "winning" the competition oscillate in synchrony, while the ones representing the eye that is suppressed fall out of synch.

So neuroscientists are well on the way to identifying the neural correlates of consciousness, a part of the Easy Problem. But what about explaining how these events actually cause consciousness in the sense of inner experience--the Hard Problem?

TACKLING THE HARD PROBLEM

To appreciate the hardness of the hard problem, consider how you could ever know whether you see colors the same way that I do. Sure, you and I both call grass green, but perhaps you see grass as having the color that I would describe, if I were in your shoes, as purple. Or ponder whether there could be a true zombie--a being who acts just like you or me but in whom there is no self actually feeling anything. This was the crux of a Star Trek plot in which officials wanted to reverse-engineer Lieut. Commander Data, and a furious debate erupted as to whether this was merely dismantling a machine or snuffing out a sentient life.

No one knows what to do with the Hard Problem. Some people may see it as an opening to sneak the soul back in, but this just relabels the mystery of "consciousness" as the mystery of "the soul"--a word game that provides no insight.

Many philosophers, like Daniel Dennett, deny that the Hard Problem exists at all. Speculating about zombies and inverted colors is a waste of time, they say, because nothing could ever settle the issue one way or another. Anything you could do to understand consciousness--like finding out what wavelengths make people see green or how similar they say it is to blue, or what emotions they associate with it--boils down to information processing in the brain and thus gets sucked back into the Easy Problem, leaving nothing else to explain. Most people react to this argument with incredulity because it seems to deny the ultimate undeniable fact: our own experience.

The most popular attitude to the Hard Problem among neuroscientists is that it remains unsolved for now but will eventually succumb to research that chips away at the Easy Problem. Others are skeptical about this cheery optimism because none of the inroads into the Easy Problem brings a solution to the Hard Problem even a bit closer. Identifying awareness with brain physiology, they say, is a kind of "meat chauvinism" that would dogmatically deny consciousness to Lieut. Commander Data just because he doesn't have the soft tissue of a human brain. Identifying it with information processing would go too far in the other direction and grant a simple consciousness to thermostats and calculators--a leap that most people find hard to stomach. Some mavericks, like the mathematician Roger Penrose, suggest the answer might someday be found in quantum mechanics. But to my ear, this amounts to the feeling that quantum mechanics sure is weird, and consciousness sure is weird, so maybe quantum mechanics can explain consciousness.

And then there is the theory put forward by philosopher Colin McGinn that our vertigo when pondering the Hard Problem is itself a quirk of our brains. The brain is a product of evolution, and just as animal brains have their limitations, we have ours. Our brains can't hold a hundred numbers in memory, can't visualize seven-dimensional space and perhaps can't intuitively grasp why neural information processing observed from the outside should give rise to subjective experience on the inside. This is where I place my bet, though I admit that the theory could be demolished when an unborn genius--a Darwin or Einstein of consciousness--comes up with a flabbergasting new idea that suddenly makes it all clear to us.

Whatever the solutions to the Easy and Hard problems turn out to be, few scientists doubt that they will locate consciousness in the activity of the brain. For many nonscientists, this is a terrifying prospect. Not only does it strangle the hope that we might survive the death of our bodies, but it also seems to undermine the notion that we are free agents responsible for our choices--not just in this lifetime but also in a life to come. In his millennial essay "Sorry, but Your Soul Just Died," Tom Wolfe worried that when science has killed the soul, "the lurid carnival that will ensue may make the phrase 'the total eclipse of all values' seem tame."

TOWARD A NEW MORALITY

My own view is that this is backward: the biology of consciousness offers a sounder basis for morality than the unprovable dogma of an immortal soul. It's not just that an understanding of the physiology of consciousness will reduce human suffering through new treatments for pain and depression. That understanding can also force us to recognize the interests of other beings--the core of morality.

As every student in Philosophy 101 learns, nothing can force me to believe that anyone except me is conscious. This power to deny that other people have feelings is not just an academic exercise but an all-too-common vice, as we see in the long history of human cruelty. Yet once we realize that our own consciousness is a product of our brains and that other people have brains like ours, a denial of other people's sentience becomes ludicrous. "Hath not a Jew eyes?" asked Shylock. Today the question is more pointed: Hath not a Jew--or an Arab, or an African, or a baby, or a dog--a cerebral cortex and a thalamus? The undeniable fact that we are all made of the same neural flesh makes it impossible to deny our common capacity to suffer.

And when you think about it, the doctrine of a life-to-come is not such an uplifting idea after all because it necessarily devalues life on earth. Just remember the most famous people in recent memory who acted in expectation of a reward in the hereafter: the conspirators who hijacked the airliners on 9/11.

Think, too, about why we sometimes remind ourselves that "life is short." It is an impetus to extend a gesture of affection to a loved one, to bury the hatchet in a pointless dispute, to use time productively rather than squander it. I would argue that nothing gives life more purpose than the realization that every moment of consciousness is a precious and fragile gift.

Steven Pinker is Johnstone Professor of Psychology at Harvard and the author of The Language Instinct, How the Mind Works and The Blank Slate

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1. Comment #18583 by thalesian on January 21, 2007 at 7:37 pm

 avatarAgain, Pinker outshines himself. While a lot more vague than other writings, I like how science is begining to tread on these topics long held sacred by those who were way to over-confident in their guesses.

The God of the Gaps is begining to look more like a size 2.

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2. Comment #18586 by roach on January 21, 2007 at 9:03 pm

Awesome.

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3. Comment #18590 by EndlessForms on January 21, 2007 at 9:53 pm

 avatar"No one knows what to do with the Hard Problem. Some people may see it as an opening to sneak the soul back in, but this just relabels the mystery of "consciousness" as the mystery of "the soul"--a word game that provides no insight."

That's exactly how I feel about ID.

"Today the question is more pointed: Hath not a Jew--or an Arab, or an African, or a baby, or a dog--a cerebral cortex and a thalamus? The undeniable fact that we are all made of the same neural flesh makes it impossible to deny our common capacity to suffer."

This is why science is so great, it's one of the only subjects that unite all thinking humans together, regardless of apparent differences.

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4. Comment #18593 by denoir on January 21, 2007 at 10:42 pm

 avatar
the biology of consciousness offers a sounder basis for morality than the unprovable dogma of an immortal soul.


This is by no means certain - the biological basis has been optimized through evolution for a human lifestyle as it was 500,000 years ago. Our societies and general living environments change much faster than biological adaptation can take place. A human anno 1850 is no different from a human anno 2050, but the morality would be quite different.

People justly complain that Christianity is based on 2000 year old morality - imagine how outdated a 500,000 year old morality would be.

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5. Comment #18599 by DerrickB on January 22, 2007 at 1:06 am

You may not have seen this on the BBC News web-site this morning:

'Altruistic' brain region found'

Scientists say they have found the part of the brain that predicts whether a person will be selfish or an altruist.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6278907.stm

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6. Comment #18605 by Clappers on January 22, 2007 at 2:38 am

Love Steven Pinkers writing

"The Stuff of Thought" comes out at the end of the year. If you get a chance to see Steven at a lecture, take it.

He is one of the 3 wise men, along with Dan Dennett and Richard dawkins.

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7. Comment #18624 by Azven on January 22, 2007 at 5:30 am

 avatar#18599: DerrickB

This is not in the current or December issue of Nature NeuroScience - must be in the Feb issue.

I tend to be sceptical of "XXX brain region found" or "gene for YYY found" statements from the press. Better to wait for the actual peer-reviewed article.

I did note however, that the study was carried out on only 45 cases and we don't know how many of the 45 showed an effect. Nor do we know what constitutes an 'effect', or how different individual cases were to each other (ie, how different the brain injury was from brain to brain).

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8. Comment #18626 by Azven on January 22, 2007 at 5:38 am

 avatarPS: Is 'crueler' a word?

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9. Comment #18642 by Sancus on January 22, 2007 at 7:27 am

Another startling conclusion from the science of consciousness is that the intuitive feeling we have that there's an executive "I" that sits in a control room of our brain, scanning the screens of the senses and pushing the buttons of the muscles, is an illusion.

Okay, every time I hear this from a scientist or anyone writing about consciousness, I overlook it as an unusual metaphor that I don't understand, and just continue reading. Unfortunately, this statement of Pinker's proliferates most of scientific writing about consciousness. It is meant to sound palpably ridiculous. It is palpably ridiculous. We all appear to agree that it is palpably ridiculous. However, it keeps being mentioned!

Do the rest of you really have this intuitive feeling that Pinker is talking about? Other members of this board know that I have been struggling to understand this. Frankly, I just don't know how you can live with yourselves. This is absurd and I guess the fact that you recognize it as absurd helps you get along. Nonetheless, how can you feel this in the first place? There is clearly more to "you" than the concept of control, isn't there? For example, take your capacity to sense beauty.

Then again, the way Pinker talks about beauty is equally absurd from my perspective.
To make scientific headway in a topic as tangled as consciousness, it helps to clear away some red herrings. Consciousness surely does not depend on language. Babies, many animals and patients robbed of speech by brain damage are not insensate robots; they have reactions like ours that indicate that someone's home. Nor can consciousness be equated with self-awareness. At times we have all lost ourselves in music, exercise or sensual pleasure, but that is different from being knocked out cold.

I have always been confused by the notion of "losing yourself to music." At first glance it sounds tremendously stupid and irresponsible, so I do not take it seriously. If that's a nice metaphor for the rest of you, okay. But do you really mean to say that you lose your sense of self in these experiences? How can you live with yourselves like that? It seems to me that the obvious answer is that you can't. That's why you have to lose yourself.

This is exactly how religious people think. They believe that beauty is something exclusively external to them and that it's encapsulated in the Holy Spirit, the source of inspiration. If there really are so many scientists and atheists out there who cannot connect the sensation of beauty with the sensation of self, I find this extremely disturbing.

Experiencing beauty is and always has been a self-affirming experience for me. When I experience the ecstasy of music, I am moved by it. I may dance or my imagination may be ignited with imagery. Nonetheless, I am still there to enjoy the music. Of course I would still be there, because I am the one experiencing it, and I would not want to miss it!

To say that you cannot sense yourself when you sense good music is conceptually inconsistent. How else could you sense the music, if you weren't there sensing it? Dennett says there are no zombies in the world, but losing one's sense of self to music is plenty zombie-like from my perspective. Incidentally, this is why I think it is morally wrong.

Of course, if your sense of self is limited to the language, then lose this limitation. Do not think that losing this limitation is losing yourself. It's just factually wrong.

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10. Comment #18645 by aleprechaunist on January 22, 2007 at 7:35 am

The 'subjective experience of self' problem has always felt similar to the 'why something rather than nothing?' problem. I'm inclined to agree with Pinker that certain aspects of the world will be forever out of our grasp, due to our human limitations, and may only ever be describable mathematically.. sigh!


"To say that you cannot sense yourself when you sense good music is conceptually inconsistent. "

Sancus, perhaps I'm getting this wrong, but I don't think Pinker was claiming the above. - rather he's drawing a distinction between consciousness and self-awareness. Maybe this is a subtle question of semantics that you shouldn't lose sleep over..

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11. Comment #18650 by VanYoungman on January 22, 2007 at 8:01 am

 avatar"Hath not a etc.& etc an anterior cingulate?" If Dr. Pinker would read Antonio Demasio's writings on consciousness he could see how clearly Dan Dennett has solved the non "hard problem". The "hard problem" like the self is an illusion.

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12. Comment #18656 by blaine on January 22, 2007 at 8:35 am

This is to bring up a theory which often goes unstated, but which has helped me over the years to understand many otherwise unrelated ramifications, and also to predict may discoveries now being made. Viz., exactly why the phenomenon of ego evolved.

I think that (at least most of) the concept of consciousness evolved as one strategy of real-time mental-focus arbitration (which in itself does not require an ego concept). I.e., a way to arbitrate between impulses, motivations which impulses/motivations can't be known ahead of time (and which therefore can't be handled by instincts or other genetic hard-coding). More importantly, I think that the concept of self/ego evolved as a strategy to promote the genes of the self's body above the genes of other competing bodies.

Example: It is a basic feature of soul/spirit/ego that I value myself above others. If my ego/self chooses actions to preserve and promote my physical body, I will live longer to reproduce more and thereby duplicate my genes more.

As hypothesized by Nietsche over a century ago, an illusion of separate individuals RESPONSIBLE for their own motives allows us to evolve feelings of hatred, indignation, guilt, etc. I say illusion because, when brain makeup and activity is all deterministic, ultimate responsibility is an illusion (besides the additional point that there really is no ultimate ego to be responsible). I brought this up to Dawkins at a book signing and he said that it sounded interesting, but (at least at that time) he was not familiar with philosophical theories in this area (specif. Nietsche).

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13. Comment #18657 by Martha on January 22, 2007 at 8:43 am

 avatarQuote Pinker: "Using functional MRI...

....They can tell, for instance, whether a person is thinking about a face or a place or whether a picture the person is looking at is of a bottle or a shoe."Unquote

Oh really? For example, for some people shoes are just shoes, whilst for others shoes are practically (if not literally) a fetish. Therefore an MRI scan would inevitably provide a very different result in either case.

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14. Comment #18664 by blaine on January 22, 2007 at 9:26 am

Martha:

A popular article doesn't provide room to define all of the definitions and test case criteria. Pinker does provide such clarifications in his books. For tests like this, they are only trying to understand "typical" brain behavior, so that is the only kind of brain they consider with this type test. There are good reasons for this, and Pinker does explain them. To point out exceptions due to abnormal brains or behavior is just a distraction from the important discoveries being made by these studies.

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15. Comment #18672 by Friend Giskard on January 22, 2007 at 9:45 am

 avatarWhenever I hear or read someone claiming that the 'hard' problem of consciousness has been solved, or denying that there is any such problem, I have to wonder whether there truly are zombies among us.

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16. Comment #18673 by aleprechaunist on January 22, 2007 at 9:45 am

Martha, people will generally agree on what constitutes a 'shoe', surely.

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17. Comment #18696 by phiwilli on January 22, 2007 at 1:49 pm

I suspect there might be a yet harder problem.
If our consciousness derives from unsuspected goings-on in our neurophysiology, then so does our reasoning, judgment, assessment of evidence and the like. Then, it would seem, not only is the sense that we have an executive "I" an illusion, but also so is the sense that we can rationally assess the implications of neuroscience's findings, or that evolution is well-supported by evidence, etc. As Pinker says, "it also seems to undermine the notion that we are free agents responsible for our choices," which would include our choices about what is a reasonable conclusion and what isn't. ALL our thoughts would be irrational, unsupported illusions, including the illusion that we sometimes think rationally. That leaves us in quite a pickle!

Karl Popper elaborated all this pretty well in "Of Clouds and Clocks" in his Objective Knowledge collection years ago, long before the recent explosion of neuroscience - or should I say, neuro-illusions?

Phiwilli

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18. Comment #18698 by crabsallover on January 22, 2007 at 2:00 pm

 avatar#18624 by Azven
The Nature Neuroscience abstract on the brain & Altruism is in the January 21st issue: http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nn1833.html

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19. Comment #18700 by blaine on January 22, 2007 at 2:08 pm

phiwilli:

I agree that the findings indicate that we are much more subjective than we generally believe. You seem to think that this devaluates conclusions of the scientific method. But, if I subjectively believe X, and you Y, and she Z, the way to objectively see who is right is with a predictive, scientific test. Correctly predicting a very improbably future event is an objective means to judge an objective truth. Science becomes more powerful, not less, since it is a proven method for filtering out subjectivity.

Contrary to your conclusion, I think that the new data mean that beliefs based on feelings and intuitions should be trusted less, and beliefs based on science should be trusted more.

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20. Comment #18879 by phiwilli on January 23, 2007 at 11:59 am

Blaine,

You induce me to elaborate and clarify! I agree with all your comments except this: "You [phiwilli] seem to think that this devaluates conclusions of the scientific method." No, my comments were hypothetical; I said, "If [supposition] our consciousness . . . etc.," not that [all] our consciousness actually does thus derive. My no doubt unclear point was that IF [all] our consciousness derives from unsuspected goings-on in our neurophysiology, THEN . . . we are in quite a pickle. Namely, the pickle that all of our supposedly objective assessments are illusions, and thus untrustworthy. I guess I should add that I think an illusion, or even a hallucination, is not necessarily wrong (or false) in all respects; rather, it cannot be reasonably trusted. An illusion could include green-appearing grass and blue-appearing sky, and those parts of it would be correct, but to conclude that grass really looks green and the sky really looks blue because that's how it was in an illusion would be an untrustworthy (but true) conclusion.

I note that you assert, but do not present an argument for, the idea that "beliefs based on science should be trusted more." I agree, but I (perhaps ?? like you) have no argument to offer for that assertion. I just accept it and begin with it. Well, I could say, I accept it because it seems to be eminently sensible. But in the context of the issue I see in Pinker's article, "eminently sensible" carries no weight at all, because IF ALL our consciousness (which would include our judgments about what is eminently sensible) derives from goings-on in our neurophysiology of which we are unaware, THEN we have no rational basis for trusting ANY of our supposedly rational judgments. (See Popper!) From all of this I conclude that NOT ALL of our consciousness derives from goings-on in our neurophysiology of which we are unaware. I grant, as I take it you do, that much more of our consciousness-content than we not long ago suspected is "predetermined" by physical conditions over which we have no control - but NOT all of it! I could, theoretically, be wrong about that - maybe everything we consciously think IS thus predetermined - but IF so, we have no way of knowing that it is, and we are trapped in illusions. (Again, see Popper!) Should one ask: if NOT all our conscious thoughts are "predetermined" by our brain physiology, then how, exactly, do we manage to (sometimes) think reasonably and rationally? I'm sure that I don't know, and I suspect that neither does anyone else. That's what I mean by the problem that is harder than Pinker's "Hard Problem".

I should I suppose add that Pinker's article, all things considered, is pretty noncommital about what he himself actually believes about how much of our consciousness is "predetermined" by brain physiology and how much isn't.

Phiwilli

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21. Comment #18888 by mitchl on January 23, 2007 at 12:59 pm

Anyone seriously interested in this subject should read some science on it and not just philosophy, even relatively enlighted one such as Pinker's. A neuroscientist named Antonio Damasio has written three very accessible books, *The Feeling of What Happens,* *Descarte's Error,* and *Looking for Spinoza.* Try any of these, but it probably makes sense to read the first one mentioned before the others. They're great books. And of course there is the work by Francis Crick mentioned in one of the responses above.

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22. Comment #18906 by seals on January 23, 2007 at 3:08 pm

 avatar Whatever the solutions to the Easy and Hard problems turn out to be, few scientists doubt that they will locate consciousness in the activity of the brain. For many nonscientists, this is a terrifying prospect. Not only does it strangle the hope that we might survive the death of our bodies, but it also seems to undermine the notion that we are free agents responsible for our choices--not just in this lifetime but also in a life to come.

Hmm but scientists aren't exactly known for their impartiality at times are they .... they seem to have something to prove too... Actually, as a non scientist whilst I might be able to cope with the thought of an afterlife in some other dimension, I find the prospect of reincarnation here on earth far more terrifying than annihilation. For a start it seems so popular in India, and I haven't any wish to go there ;)

As for undermining freedom ... if I feel free, relatively speaking, surely I am free? *shrug* Absolute freedom doesn't exist in these conditions.

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23. Comment #18909 by Kimpatsu on January 23, 2007 at 3:16 pm

 avatarIt's a great article, but there is one point on which I disagree with Pinker, finding him hopelessly optimistic. (Or maybe I'm just a pessimistic curmudgeon!) Pinker wrote, 'As every student in Philosophy 101 learns, nothing can force me to believe that anyone except me is conscious. This power to deny that other people have feelings is not just an academic exercise but an all-too-common vice, as we see in the long history of human cruelty. Yet once we realize that our own consciousness is a product of our brains and that other people have brains like ours, a denial of other people's sentience becomes ludicrous. "Hath not a Jew eyes?" asked Shylock. Today the question is more pointed: Hath not a Jew--or an Arab, or an African, or a baby, or a dog--a cerebral cortex and a thalamus? The undeniable fact that we are all made of the same neural flesh makes it impossible to deny our common capacity to suffer.'
I don't see that to be the case. The Lake Woebegone Effect, as described by Michael Shermer et. al., notes that people necessarily view their own experiences as objectively superior to those of others, so understanding how and why other people suffer, or even recognising that other people do indeed suffer, ends up being dismissed on the grounds that of course MY suffering is always greater than yours (because I'm more sensitive/artistic/thoughtful/intelligent, or maybe just because I'm me and so occupy a special place in the universe where my suffering necessarily takes on a whole new dimension, whereas your suffering is merely the bog-standard sort), and so MY suffering will always be worth more. It does not follow that just because I understand the nature of your suffering that I will empathise with it or put your suffering on an equal footing with my own.

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24. Comment #18916 by Homo economicus on January 23, 2007 at 3:41 pm

 avatarThis is something I have only started getting into. Reading William H. Calvin's 'A Brief History of the Mind.' That chemical reactions and nerve cells firing have such consequances for animals.

That melatonin released from a squirrel's pineal gland every night from days becoming shorter causes the hoarding of nuts in winter (page 9).

Neurobiology is fascinating.

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25. Comment #18918 by Veronique on January 23, 2007 at 4:22 pm

 avatarblaine-18656

Your eg. of soul/spirit/ego valuing self, preserving and promoting the physical body for reproductive reasons sounds okay. I suspect it is unconscious however.

How do you reconcile your eg to bodies past reproductive capacity? I am representative of this older group, still preserving and promoting this poor old husk of genetic material in order to optimise my inevitable (even) older age.

Regards
V

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26. Comment #19041 by blaine on January 24, 2007 at 1:17 pm

Re: phiwilli

I hesitate to answer your objections with the detail which is really necessary, because I don't want to waste the time in case you do not return to this aging forum thread. I admit that you deserve a more complete answer.

I will reply here briefly (though admittedly insufficiently). It is neither easy nor rewarding to describe ultimate justifications, but I did intimate the justification of science even when brain subjectivity is tricking us:

"Correctly predicting a very improbably future event is an objective means to judge an objective truth."

I don't want to waste my time arguing with people who disagree with the premisses

1: Trust in logic is necessary to make any intelligent progress in a discussion. No, I can't PROVE this, but there is no point in discussion if we don't just "go with it".

2: You and I are justified in the general empirical assumption. There is just no point arguing if you counter my claim by saying, "Just because you have proven that X ALWAYS leads to Y, there is no reason to think that X has any tendency to lead to Y again."

3: It is counter-productive to entertain theories of trickery or illusion beyond what logic and empiricism show. The reason is, I can't disprove any trickery or illusion beyond my capability to detect it... As a result, I can argue the trickery/illusion which I know something about, or I can argue ad Ignorantiam and gain zero knowledge. I choose the former.


I will not take the time to complete the argument, but I think you can assemble it from my premisses.

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27. Comment #19048 by blaine on January 24, 2007 at 2:19 pm

Re: Phiwilli contd.

It seems that you have an unstated assumption that complete determinism necessarily implies "derives from goings-on in our neurophysiology of which we are unaware". I've given reasons why I think we should believe scientific findings about objective reality even though our mind tricks us about some things (most importantly, about ego). I am "aware" of brain mechanisms and even of unconscious thoughts because of scientific discoveries.

I think that if you make a concerted effort to study what philosophers have to say about free will, and what neurologists have to say about exactly how thoughts are made, you'll conclude as I do that all thought is deterministic down to the subatomic level, and the subatomic indeterminism can in no way be influenced by any mind/ego/soul/spirit/life... it is pure statistically weighted randomness. Not that the philosophers agree with me, but they agree that the only basis to disagree with me is either that they "want to" believe in their ego, or they are trying to justify the common belief in an ego (its downright ridiculous to see otherwise respectable philosophers like Searle flat out admit that they find no evidence, but conclude, "I suspect there's some unseen mechanism, since that is what I wish to believe.") I am not as well read in Neuroscience (but am reading it studiously now), but everything I have read indicates that there is no point in time or space where it would make sense to posit indeterminism. There is just no input which is not accounted for deterministically.

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28. Comment #19053 by blaine on January 24, 2007 at 2:31 pm

Re: Veronique

I appreciate your interest and your insight.

I think that in all cases, consciousness is the very highest level (executive) means of arbitrating mental concentration. However, there could be non-human animals or machines who have an executive-concentration-arbitrator which does not "feel". And that is the crux of the "hard" problem: If all of my decisions follow deterministically from the inputs, why would "feeling it" as it is occurring have any survival (or other) benefit? I propose that the "feeling" that our ego is making the choices is absolutely illusion. According to evidence cited in the article above and elsewhere, we find that our mind is just tricking us to think that our conscious ego is involved in making the decisions. For example, we hear the command to move our arm, see our arm move, and assume that my ego decided to move the arm and initiated the deterministic cause-and-effect chain to move the arm... but in the experiment, it wasn't even our arm.

Thank you for making the valid point that there may also be unconscious concentration-arbitrators. In an effort to keep my discussion narrowed to consciousness here, I'll leave that be.


Re. "How do you reconcile your eg to bodies past reproductive capacity?"

I suspect that there is more meaning to your question than I can glean from what you wrote. I can only respond to the question as far as I can understand it. Evolution doesn't need to justify the continued existence of items which were formerly useful-- phsysics does that. A body is a low-entropy localization created and sustained by skimming off of energy conversions. Low entropy artifacts persist forward in time until overcome by the tendency toward chaos.

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29. Comment #19068 by phil rimmer on January 24, 2007 at 4:08 pm

 avatarBlaine 18656

I'm sure you're right on the reproductive advantage and hence evolution of the ego / executive "I". Susan Blackmore in "The Meme Machine", by contrast, believes that the executive "I" is a spurious artefact causing us only misery. She even councels us on how to move from western ego-centricness to a more soothing eastern zen-like state. Perhaps, she feels a number of good things will ensue from our new-found selflessness e.g. World Peace and an end to the "Hard Problem"

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30. Comment #19070 by the great teapot on January 24, 2007 at 4:16 pm

pretentious twaddle

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31. Comment #19073 by phil rimmer on January 24, 2007 at 4:31 pm

 avatarBlaine 19053

My own take on why the experience of the executive "I" is so extraordinary is based on two aspects of the mental processes involved. First is the maniacal, obsessive frequency of self-model maintenance. Second is our use of this model in simulations to alter our own emotional state and predispose the "unconscious beast" of our body/mind to act something like we imagined it might. (This latter, I suggest is the closest we can get to free will....speculative daydreams, repeated and refined to create an emotional bias towards the "formulated plan".)

The obsessive self questioning coupled with the emotional reflexiveness somehow leads to a qualitively different sujective experience to that of other mental processes.

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32. Comment #19074 by phil rimmer on January 24, 2007 at 4:34 pm

 avatarTo elucidate my comments above I add this-

Human brains are powerful simulation machines. We better survived than other species by better predicting the future through our simulations. We make mental models of others (people, animals…. things) for use in our simulations. Crucially, we must run our simulations fast so that we get answers before something dangerous happens, like being attacked. The models we use must, therefore, be small. Too much detail will slow us down. Simple models can partially compensate for their crudeness by at least being kept up to date.

Before we can run a simulation of a situation we must also include a model of ourselves. We have way too much information here. The model must be simple and up to the minute…no, up to the second! How fit am I? How tired? How confident? How do I look…scary or a wimp? Walking through the wrong part of town we rehearse possible scenarios, including in it a model of ourselves, freshly prepared for the occasion.

Libet has shown that decisions to act may occur unconsciously, before any apparent conscious act of wilful decision making. In other words the conscious, wilful self is an illusion. It is rather a post-action explaining-away of what we've just done.

For me, this is only partly true. As Libet argues there is no "act of will", no conscious button push just preceding the act itself. But, I contend, there is a conscious precursor in the simulations, in the rehearsal we use to predispose our unconscious selves towards the preferred action. We "build ourselves up" and hope we don't suffer a "failure of nerve."

I contend, the process of making and re-making up-to-the-second models (particularly self-models) has become an almost Obsessive Compulsive mental function for humans, radically changing our awareness/response to it. I further contend that this is a major part of what makes our experience of consciousness, Qualia etc. so remarkable.

In a sense, self-consciousness could be thought of as answering the endlessly posed question, "Who am I now?"

Finally, its remarkable how "alive" people feel when under (mild) threat….

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33. Comment #19084 by phiwilli on January 24, 2007 at 6:00 pm

Blaine,

I agree, as you seem to think, that this is not the place to further pursue those issues. Except for these brief comments (!!!). As I understand them, I agree with your three premises. I'm not so certain that I can assemble the argument as you see it. My conjecture is that its conclusion would be something like: pursuing the issue of whether all our conscious thoughts are illusions is pointless, because we could never know. So much for that.

Then there's the matter of complete determinism (you say, "all thought is deterministic down to the subatomic level"). I'm far from convinced of that. I was surprised by Pinker's claim that "They [neuroscientists] can tell, for instance, whether a person is thinking about a face or a place or whether a picture the person is looking at is of a bottle or a shoe." But since he, and lots of others (probably including you) know a hell of a lot more about neuroscience than I do, I accept it. But that's a long, long way from ALL thought is deterministic . . . etc. An example:

Euclid long ago elegantly proved that there is no greatest prime number - the prime numbers are "infinite." But there are some prime numbers (eg. 17 & 19) that differ by only 2 - they are called twin primes. Last I checked, no mathematician has proved whether the twin primes are finite or infinite, although the matter has been pursued in some detail. When neuroscience can, by examining brain patterns or whatnot, say whether X's brain has produced a mathematically correct (or incorrect) proof that there are infinite (or finite) twin primes, I will fold my tent and slink away. Until then (or until some convincing new aspect I haven't thought of is pointed out), I agree with Popper, who maintains, in essence, that complete determinism is incompatible with rationality. He elaborates it nicely in "Of Clouds and Clocks." That leaves it open as to which of the two is correct. I choose rationality, and conclude that complete determinism is wrong (disjunctive syllogism). I gather that you want both complete determinism and rationality, which I think is inconsistent.

Oh, BTW, I do not think there is some mind/ego/soul/spirit/life that is separable (a "separate substance," as philosophers would say) from our physical body/brain. Rather, I think (and of course I might be 'way wrong) that there are "emergent properties" that are not "predetermined" by "lower-level" physical conditions. Again see Popper. You'll no doubt be dubious of lots of what he says, but he sure is provocative!

Phiwilli

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34. Comment #19472 by blaine on January 27, 2007 at 1:56 pm

This thread is about to drop off the richarddawkins.net/home page. I hope my fellow correspondents return :) .

Re: phil rimmer

I really like your hypothesis about our preoccupation with maintaining our "self models". Think about the implications of indignation. How effortlessly it arises. How ubiquitous it is in any human over age 2. How it is often based upon biased perspectives, yet we give it (nearly) absolute control over our attitudes. As an extreme example, think about indignation against fate. Like when my daughter gets frustrated that she just can't learn a piano piece. She gets totally frustrated and angry, yet there is no object-- she is only angry that faith is being unfair to her "self".

I have an objection to your hypothesis about what makes consciousness feel like consciousness. Perhaps you've already thought through something to account for this (please enlighten me if so).

You say that consciousness automatically comes about when certain complex, self-reflexive examinations take place... perhaps a very specific combination of processing. My objection is, the algorithms may be incredibly complex, and recursive to some degree, but they are neither infinitely complex, nor infinitely recursive (a simple way to restate this last is that the recursion has some terminal condition, like when a max time is reached or a lower potential-benefit-threshold has been reached).

Seeing that your "conditions" of consciousness are all finite mental actions, none of which requires consciousness by itself, why could there not be an animal or mechanical mind which could run the same exact algorithms without the feeling of consciousness? I.e.

A + B + C... -> consciousness -> resultant thought

vs.

A + B + C... -> resultant thought

I can think of no situation where the first strategy would be better in terms of efficiency, survivial, or anything else.


To restate my objection from an evolutionary perspective... The only evolutionary benefit of a better brain (with or without consciousness) would be to make better decisions (with respect to survivial or reproduction). I can conceive of no way that "a consciousness-based decision" could improve upon a complex mathematically weighted decision. No matter what unique input you propose as a component of consciousness, that same input can be used as the basis for a weighted mathematical equation.


Perhaps the answer lies in something like the following. Some basis of thinking algorithms and decision weighting schemes are genetic, either static or as a starting point for experiential learning. These genetically predetermined weights will probably vary due to averaging of sexual recombinations + mutations + genetic viruses. Whereas these variations in general would provide great input for evolutionary selection to work and improve upon, the favorable weight to put on survival of yourself (and closely-related bodies which carry some of the same genes) must be extremely high. I.e., if I am deciding whether it is more important for me to scratch a misquito bite, or to run from a tiger, self-survival should always trump (i.e. have extremely favorable decision weight). Maybe the conscious thought of an ultimately valuable ego transcending physicality effectively gives an ultimately high decision weighting to our "self" without the opportunity of mutations, etc. lowering the weight. Perhaps "self love" is the essential quality of consciousness? Given two races of humans, one with a traditional genetically coded weight for body-survival, and another with genes for a self-love facility, in the long run the latter would more often make decisions favorable to survival/reproduction.

(I just thought of this now, so don't hesitate to poke holes!)

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35. Comment #19489 by blaine on January 27, 2007 at 3:24 pm

Re: phiwilli

I apologize for the butchering of my argument. Plus, the original conclusion got lost among the replies.

You said:

I note that you assert, but do not present an argument for, the idea that 'beliefs based on science should be trusted more.'

That is the what I was arguing to defend. You have agreed with my premisses:

  • Methods of logic are to be trusted.

  • General empirical assumption.

  • It's counter-productive to entertain trickery/illusions without some justification other than just conceiving of it.

Since it would require trickery or illusions to make us totally misunderstand past and future, the premisses above justify our trust in hypotheses which we have repeatedly experienced (directly or indirectly) to correctly predict the future. As I stated it in originally:

Correctly predicting a very improbably future event is an objective means to judge an objective truth.

QED, beliefs based on science should be trusted, even though science tells us that some of our "feelings" are misleading/illusionary. I think this argument works at least as well for a deterministic world as for a non-deterministic world.

I deny your premiss "ALL our consciousness... derives from goings-on in our neurophysiology of which we are unaware". There is a lot about neurophysiology that we are aware of, and we have no reason to doubt what science shows up about typical physical sensory perception. One would have to believe in trickery, etc., to deny that nerves carry data from ocular light detectors into the brain, for example, or that brain cells communicate with one another across synapses.

I see nothing in anything that you have written (whether via Popper or not) to justify the assertion that rationality and complete determinism are antithetical. As far as I know, what I wrote above justifies rationality in a deterministic world.

-------------------------------

I won't comment on Popper's theories because I only know them through citations. I will order "Objective Knowledge" from Amazon right after I submit this post, if it's still available.

-------------------------------

You say:

Then there's the matter of complete determinism (you say, "all thought is deterministic down to the subatomic level"). I'm far from convinced of that.

Non-deterministic events are quintessentially random. Not random in the sense that it is beyond our ability to predict or determine the cause, but that the outcome is ultimately inscrutable ahead of time, and the cause is inscrutable after-the-fact. The only such events known in the universe occur at the sub-atomic scale. Point to any event at all anywhere in the brain, and entire process is deterministic.

On a neuron scale, we know that decision neurons fire due to "calculations" physically performed by electrical and chemical sums exceeding thresholds. The ONLY way to change the outcome is to change one of those inputs.

On a thought scale, consciousness and ego only matter with certain types of decisions. For these decisions, we DO NOT VALUE RANDOM DECISIONS. We value only decisions based on rules which we approve of. These "rules" are also decisions which we do not value unless they were based on rules which we approve of. When you go to the end of the recurse, you end up with physical input (genes or physical experiences). I.e. the input to out thought system are entirely RANDOM (which comes only from the subatomic scope) or DETERMINISTIC.

------------------------------

Re. ability of neuroscience can detect true beliefs in a brain.

I think you'll realize that the definition of science would have to change if it could do that. Science is inductive. There is no direct connection between science and reality, like there is between math and reality.

But, I have no idea why anything should hinge upon such a fantastic ability. The brain evolved as a contolling mechanism and decision maker. That is what science tells us, whether the world is deterministic or not. Brain designs survive evolution when it controls our bodies well and makes good survival and reproduction decisions. If you think brains should have evolved some way to absolutely distinguish truth, you'll have to justify that.

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36. Comment #19508 by phil rimmer on January 27, 2007 at 5:30 pm

 avatarblaine 19472

First, I don't think self-model maintenance is a complex process. Quite the reverse, I think it is a simple one. (Elsewhere I have proposed that it may contain as little as 5 elements because I believe it resides in short term memory.) But it is obsessive. Continually needing to maintain it for maximum effectiveness, we scour our external and internal worlds for pertinent data every second of the day.

I propose that early man didn't do this to anything like the same degree and that their subjective experience might have been less vivid, less..conscious.

How such a process (or any process) could possibly make such a subjective experience is the hardest aspect of the "Hard Problem", but somehow I feel that a simple process of self assessment obsessively and relentlessly pursued is generally in the right direction. Put another way, I feel that the experience of consciousness does not depend per se on complex algorithms. The mind bogling (sic) complexity of the brain is essentially hidden from conscious view. However, it does provide the (high executive) model-maker with a rich store of material; memories, sensations, feelings...

Why did consciousness evolve? Well, I don't think it came automatically with the (genetic) evolution of big brains. Indeed, I don't think its evolution is genetic. I believe it to be predominantly Memetic. I believe we were assiduous model-makers of everything external because of our big brains, but self-model making lagged well behind. Self models became useful as culture grew. It may be that it formed part of the arms race of wrong-footing our fellow man. Whatever, your key question of why the process needs to be "conscious" at all is of great significance.

Well, I don't know, but...I feel that it has something to do with enhancing the emotional charge that comes with running our simulations. Somehow (I propose) these simulations became more effective, i.e. more predictive of the future, as we started to have a increasingly vivid experience of seeing ourselves chasing and catching the antelope. This is because we better trained ourselves to act out the plan.

Chasing the antelope we can rerun our simulation. Yes! this is the thrilling part when I throw the spear. Suddenly, we have become more wilful. We are the agents of our own lives.

An interesting question is how this Meme for Self Consciousness manifests itself. How to babies catch it? Well some babies don't. Feral children may never catch it out of contact from society. Eastern consciousness may well be subtly different from Western, women's from men's. But what do we do when we meet each other? We ask, "How are you?"..."How are you feeling?" Well now you come to ask, "How am I feeling?"

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37. Comment #19510 by phil rimmer on January 27, 2007 at 5:51 pm

 avatarBlaine

I should have commented more on your decision-weighting argument, which I think exposes the key problem with big brains, i.e. it becomes increaingly difficult to get a view of a path forward with so many mental modules feeding us potentially conflicting data. The key here is emotion. An intelligent and logical person who suffers a brain injury that prevents them from experiencing emotions makes very few and/or poor decisions. The personal value of their choices has gone.

I am convinced that self-consciousness, emotion and the strong experiencing of the personal value (for good or ill) that comes from our simulations are intimately tied together in some way.

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38. Comment #19533 by seals on January 28, 2007 at 1:45 am

 avatarJust wondering, what are the simplest conscious animals, and how to determine if they are conscious, ie have subjective experience? I doubt if microbes are conscious, but some very small insects, barely visible to the naked eye, do give that impression - do they even have a brain, in the normal sense, or just some kind of nerve centre? They certainly move fast when you try to catch them but maybe this is just a reflex from stimulus to the eye. (If it is just a reflex, does this actually mean they are not conscious?) Spiders can seem quite clever in the inaccessible places they lurk, again this may be instinct, yet some seem cleverer than others. It seems obvious all mammals and birds must be conscious.

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39. Comment #19546 by blaine on January 28, 2007 at 7:13 am

Re: seals

When I was a teenager and looked into it, it was not very uncommon for people to think that only humans had consciousness, and all other animals, even dogs and chimps, act by instinct and algorithms without any real consciousness. I think all but the most retrograde thinkders will now put it somewhere between earthworms and cats.

It seems likely that it won't be long until our form of consciousness can be detected by a specific pattern of brain activity (actually seeing the neurons in different specific areas being triggered in a certain sequence to sample their output, then higher-level neurons choosing between the candidates). This can be seen now, but only when the question under consideration is extremely well defined. So, if research like this is expanded and generalized, a physician could look at a scan and tell if the patient is conscious or not.

The problem with generalizing this to animals is that the brain patterns are different. As an example, there is a specific area of the human brain that seems to choose between emotional responses and rational responses, and this area varies in activity from person to person, but most animals don't even have it.

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40. Comment #19549 by blaine on January 28, 2007 at 7:48 am

Re: phil rimmer

I don't buy the idea that memes are directly responsible for consciousness. Memes are just thoughts. To say that thoughts somehow created consciousness is just as magical as to say that thoughts somehow created trees. There is no plausible causal link. Quite religious.

I understand what you are saying about the motivational effect of consciousness, but I challenge you to explain why such a motivational effect would be more powerful than than a non-conscious motivation of the same quantity.

I.e., you are saying that this self-drive is so important because it makes me really ingenious and motivated about surviving. I challenge you to think up any situation where this conscious self-drive is clearly more beneficial than non-consciousness. After you have done that, I replace your conscious subject with a non-conscious subject who will run the same exact brain algorithms, motivational weightings, etc., but without consciousness. My subject will survive just as well as your conscious subject.

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41. Comment #19737 by phil rimmer on January 29, 2007 at 4:56 pm

 avatarRe: blaine

I am a little flummoxed that you think software (memes) might not create something substantial. In fact I've got some neat software that helps me write more software. Software is powerful. Google has affected me more, by organising my life around its capabilities, than most people have. Software isn't spooky. I'll try and put a proper response to this shortly.

"Zombie substitution" is a standard refutation of consciousness explanations. You write, "… I replace your conscious subject with a non-conscious subject who will run the same exact brain algorithms, motivational weightings, etc., but without consciousness. My subject will survive just as well as your conscious subject…." Now here's the point. We study consciousness because we intuitively believe it must somehow affect us and our relationships with others. But the problem of consciousness comes in two parts. How does the extraordinary (unique!) experience come about in the first place? And how does this experience affect us?

This latter, the experience of consciousness, affects us, I propose, because it is an INPUT back into our brains. (I am disinclined to believe the likes of Susan Blackmore who believes it to be a spurious phenomenon with no consequent effects.) Thus to say you compare brains with identical algorithms etc. etc. but one is conscious and one not and then ask why should not the non-conscious brain survive just as well as the conscious one, is to overlook this possibility. Denying one brain consciousness may be denying it an extra input back into the brain (an additional feedback loop if you will). Thus, they will not behave, nor can they ever behave, identically.

A backstop position on this, which looks a little Blackmore-ish, is that there may be an algorithm (or whatever) that produces both the "return input" AND the "remarkable experience". In other words the "input" and the "experience" aren't linked as effect and cause respectively as implied in the paragraph above, but are both necessary (simultaneous) effects of the algorithm. The point here is that again you can only remove the conscious experience by removing the causing algorithm (or whatever), thereby removing the other effect, the input, the feedback element as well. The argument might be that the remarkable effect of consciousness is produced by a remarkable algorithm, or rather that the algorithm is so remarkable that it must necessarily produce remarkable outcomes.

A quick comment on animal consciousness. I strongly suspect that the experience of consciousness is a continuum from zero consciousness upwards (and that we don't represent the peak of what is possible). The bigger the brain, the bigger the conscious experience, perhaps. But also, the more complex the social environment, the greater the experience. Hence the Memetic angle….but I jump ahead..

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42. Comment #19861 by blaine on January 30, 2007 at 10:27 am

Re phil rimmer

Re:

I am a little flummoxed that you think software (memes) might not create something substantial. In fact I've got some neat software that helps me write more software. Software is powerful. Google has affected me more, by organising my life around its capabilities, than most people have. Software isn't spooky.

Good analogy. Software can create more software, and we know about many mechanisms to explain cause-and-effects to indirectly effect other things. It's just wishful thinking to propose that memes directly create some other thing, consciousness, without any evidence or even theory of a mechanism which would allow memes to create consciousness. From all the proof you have given, memes could just as easily directly create cars or elephants.

Re: Zombie substitution. Your argument would hold some weight if I said that there is no difference at all between my non-conscious subject vs. your conscious subject. The claim I made, however, is that your subject has no survival benefit over mine. I acknowledge that there is a difference between consciousness and unconsciousness-- that's the triviality which you have proven. I wouldn't argue if I thought consciousness was nothing. I am saying that neurology accounts for the body-controlling and decision-making aspects of the brain, i.e., the only survival-impactiving aspects of the human mind, without any need for consciousness.

Specifically, (1) there is no reason to think that anything is a cause for bodily control other than neurons sending outgoing chemical/electrical signals. No consciousness necessary. Earthworms do this all the time. (2) There is no reason to think that anything is involved with decision-making other than weighted summation calculations performed by neurons. #2 just takes some concentrated thought about the subject. What do you base decisions on... you base them on your personal values, rules, past experiences, hard-coded instincts and desires, etc. Every input to the "deciding" neurons is ultimately physical. I hope that you can think through the ultimate physical sources of the inputs yourself (by just thinking about what you base decisions upon), but I can spell that out too if necessary. To propose that consciousness is somehow necessary when there is nothing to account for and the hypothesis is entirely devoid of evidence is very analogous to the long-lived hypothesis of ether.

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43. Comment #19912 by phil rimmer on January 30, 2007 at 4:10 pm

 avatarblaine

Re

From all the proof you have given, memes could just as easily directly create cars or elephants.

But memes do create cars. Not directly, but through the medium of brains and their attendant bodies. Likewise, I argue, that memes (greatly?) extend the experience of consciousness through the medium of brains and there neurology. Memes can't "work" in isolation. They may be carried from host to host on pieces of paper or in sound waves etc., but they must be expressed in brains to trigger behaviour or experience.

Culture is memes. Language is memes. Art is memes. Did the nature of our consciousness change when we acquired language? I believe it did. I believe, when the first mark was made on a cave wall, and it suddenly looked like an antelope to the mark-maker, a new mental process became available to us. A mental process that opened our minds to the Distinctness and Separateness of things. The Reification of objects if you will. Before, our experience of the world would have been a smeary continuum, where the relationships between things could only ever be as we had experienced them and where our self-model would be a pale thing, eliding into the stuff that just happens to us.

Up on the cave wall is an antelope. Utterly still. Split off from the world and living in the artist's mind's eye. Or saying our new word ANTELOPE we can invoke it. With things separated off from other things we can now start to put these all these things into new and never-before-seen contexts. Suddenly, our mental model-making mushrooms in complexity as we discover narrative. We imagine new juxtapositions of things. This time we kill the antelope with a rock. And this time we kill …a…a…Mammoth…No really… and the women will love us.

I argue that Memes give us the tools to create many more kinds of stories, models, self-models etc. and to use these in in much more complex ways. Ways where the outcome is not immediately obvious to us (or others!). Ways that may shock us. I also argue that the power to create these stories (simulations), with its internal emotional impact, feeds our ability to act wilfully. (See my first posted arguments for this.) Wilful action appears to others as seemingly random action. This confers great (survival) advantage to the wilful over enemies and prey.

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44. Comment #19970 by Feigentodd on January 30, 2007 at 11:43 pm

Mr. Pinker's article is a fascinating, and I would say profound look at the question everyone asks...What am I?

That said, it raises as many questions with no answers as it tries to explain. Specifically:

(1) "...when the physiological activity of the brain ceases, as far as anyone can tell the person's consciousness goes out of existence. Attempts to contact the souls of the dead (a pursuit of serious scientists a century ago) turned up only cheap magic tricks..."

What exactly does "existence" mean? Existence in the 3 dimensional reality we call the world? Existence in the sense that something exists anywhere, even if it can't be seen or sensed? In regards to the implication we should dismiss an afterlife because attempts to contact the departed have turned out to be frauds is like saying there is no life on other planets because we can't see it. Lack of proof is not proof in itself.

(2) If my consciousness is a result of the interaction of neurons in my brain, why is my consciousness in this body and not the person born in the room next to me on my birth date? What unique property of the neurons in my brain places my consciousness in this specific body and not someone else's? For that matter, why did my consciousness wait until my specific birth date to spring into existence? Why wasn't it born (as someone else, of course) 10 years earlier or 10 years later? What made the baby I was so different from all the other babies born throughout all time that it should be the only one ever to house whatever I call this soul?

(3) Most of what Mr. Pinker refers to as proof of the limitations of consciousness (e.g., the fact that our eyes only see one thing at a time, that most of the world we see is "amazingly coarse") seems more a reflection of the limitation of the physiology of our eyes, not our brains.

One thing that is indisputable is that our individual existence is the result of the circumstances and matings of hundreds or thousands of specific individuals at very specific times over the course of eons. If any one piece of that had gone a tiny bit differently, our specific selves wouldn't never exist at all, replaced with alternate individuals whose souls never came into being in this version of reality. But yet here each of us are, winners of the most improbable lottery in the cosmos with odds of quadrillions to one.

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45. Comment #20086 by blaine on January 31, 2007 at 9:47 am

Re: phil rimmer

I'm not at all convinced that every survival benefit that you have touched upon could not be achieved by quantitative improvements of decision/weighting algorithsms, which are already accounted for by evolution. If it's reeeealy beneficial to be able to give lots of value to impressing the opposite gender by cultural achievements, neurons can accommodate that with dynamic weighting strategies alone. Other dynamic weighting strategies result in motives to achieve this "impression" goal by using art, competition, etc.

I guess I should have spelled out why I keep insisting on a "direct" link between memes and consciousness. It's because the thing to be explained is the creation of consciousness. If memes only indirectly create consciousness, then you haven't simplified the creation of consciousness at all. The problem is, we know of absolutely no mechanism which can create consciousness, and simply saying that memes initiate the creation indirectly by some totally unknown means is analogous to saying that God explains the creation of the universe. I have no idea how a God would go about creating a universe, but saying that God is a mediate cause is preferable to me than saying, "I don't know how the universe was created".

I do like your ideas that memes and thoughts could be a mediate cause, and I very much appreciate your bringing to my attention many new inferences from this hypothesis. But for me, this sheds no light on how creationism could be created.

A general limitation of evolution is that it cannot create new types of things which would be useful to evolution. I think this is deadly to the idea that evolution in any way is responsible for the original creation of the first consciousness. Example: Wings would have been really useful for birds because birds could thereby escape from predators better-- therefore wings evolved. The "components" of wings have to coincidently be at a state where random mutations statistically result in the components assembling minimally useful wings. This is a major challenge for protobiogenesis-- to account for how the first replicating genes came about. If ages ago there was nothing in the world anything like consciousness, then memes, thoughts, genes, etc. could not have simply fabricated consciousness because it would be useful.

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46. Comment #20088 by blaine on January 31, 2007 at 10:07 am

Re: Feigentodd

Re: #1

Good point. Wittgenstein and some other ontologists have really insightful stuff to say about kinds of existence which we usually ignore. For example, if you imagine something, that imagined thing does exist in some way. Abstract ideas like "triangleness" also exist in a real way.

Re: #2 and #3

I think that consciousness persists (don't know how it started though :( ) because it is an efficient way to make dynamic decisions which excel at perpetuating "my" genes. (I can't prove that it is more efficient or successful at this than non-conscious weighted decision algorithms, though).

"My" consciousness is centered around my body because consciousness survives only to the extent that it promotes the genes of the body containing genes for that body's consciousness mechanisms.

The working fuel for consciousness is input sensory data, which can be stored as memories, etc. This working fuel of consciousness X is obviously limited to sensory inputs from the body containing consciousness X. I.e., Blaine's consciousness (made possible by consciousness mechanisms coded in Blaine's genes) can only work with sensory data available to Blaine's brain. WRT visual data, over a lifetime, our brains perceive many, many, many times more perceptions than our brains has a capacity to remember: this is a neuronal limitation, not a psychological limitation.

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47. Comment #20149 by seals on January 31, 2007 at 3:33 pm

 avatarAnd when the physiological activity