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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 | Reason : Astronomy | print version Print | Comments |

Document Stephen Hawking Says Universe Created from Nothing

by Slashdot

Thanks to James Pycroft for the link.

Reposted from:

http://science.slashdot.org/science/07/03/14/172226.shtml

"Speaking to a sold out crowd at the Berkeley Physics Oppenheimer Lecture, Hawking said yesterday that he now believes the universe spontaneously popped into existence from nothing. He said more work is needed to prove this but we have time because 'Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.' There is also a Webcast available (Realplayer or Real Alternative required)."


hawkingTRANSCRIPT: Origins of the universe: Stephen Hawking's J. Robert Oppenheimer Lecture

BERKELEYThe is the text of the J. Robert Oppenheimer Lecture in Physics, delivered March 13, 2007, by Stephen Hawking, the Lucasian professor of mathematics at Cambridge University. Hawking spoke at Zellerbach Hall on the campus of the University of California, Berkeley.

Can you hear me?

According to the Boshongo people of central Africa, in the beginning there was only darkness, water, and the great god Bumba. One day Bumba, in pain from a stomach ache, vomited up the sun. The sun dried up some of the water, leaving land. Still in pain, Bumba vomited up the moon, the stars, and then some animals. The leopard, the crocodile, the turtle, and, finally man.

This creation myth, like many others, tries to answer the questions we all ask. Why are we here? Where did we come from? The answer generally given, was that humans were of comparatively recent origin, because it must have been obvious, even at early times, that the human race was improving in knowledge and technology. So it can't have been around that long, or it would have progressed even more. For example, according to Bishop Usher, the Book of Genesis placed the creation of the world at 9 in the morning, on October the 27th, 4,004 BC. On the other hand, the physical surroundings, like mountains and rivers, change very little in a human life time. They were therefore thought to be a constant background, and either to have existed for ever as an empty landscape, or to have been created at the same time as the humans.

Not everyone however, was happy with the idea that the universe had a beginning. For example, Aristotle, the most famous of the Greek philosophers, believed the universe had existed for ever. Something eternal, is more perfect than something created. He suggested the reason we see progress, was that floods, or other natural disasters, had repeatedly set civilization back to the beginning. The motivation for believing in an eternal universe, was the desire to avoid invoking divine intervention, to create the universe, and set it going. Conversely, those who believed the universe had a beginning, used it as an argument for the existence of God, as the first cause, or prime mover of the universe.

If one believed that the universe had a beginning, the obvious question was, What happened before the beginning? What was God doing before He made the world? Was He preparing Hell for people who asked such questions? The problem of whether or not the universe had a beginning, was a great concern to the German philosopher, Immanuel Kant. He felt there were logical contradictions, or Antimonies, either way. If the universe had a beginning, why did it wait an infinite time before it began? He called that the thesis. On the other hand, if the universe had existed for ever, why did it take an infinite time to reach the present stage? He called that the anti thesis. Both the thesis, and the anti thesis, depended on Kant's assumption, along with almost everyone else, that time was Absolute. That is to say, it went from the infinite past, to the infinite future, independently of any universe that might or might not exist in this background.

This is still the picture in the mind of many scientists today. However in 1915, Einstein introduced his revolutionary General Theory of Relativity. In this, space and time were no longer Absolute, no longer a fixed background to events. Instead, they were dynamical quantities that were shaped by the matter and energy in the universe. They were defined only within the universe, so it made no sense to talk of a time before the universe began. It would be like asking for a point south of the South Pole. It is not defined.

If the universe was essentially unchanging in time, as was generally assumed before the 1920s, there would be no reason that time should not be defined arbitrarily far back. Any so-called beginning of the universe, would be artificial, in the sense that one could extend the history back to earlier times. Thus it might be that the universe was created last year, but with all the memories and physical evidence, to look like it was much older. This raises deep philosophical questions about the meaning of existence. I shall deal with these by adopting what is called, the positivist approach. In this, the idea is that we interpret the input from our senses in terms of a model we make of the world. One can not ask whether the model represents reality, only whether it works. A model is a good model, if first it interprets a wide range of observations, in terms of a simple and elegant model. And second, if the model makes definite predictions that can be tested, and possibly falsified, by observation.

In terms of the positivist approach, one can compare two models of the universe. One in which the universe was created last year, and one in which the universe existed much longer. The model in which the universe existed for longer than a year, can explain things like identical twins, that have a common cause more than a year ago. On the other hand, the model in which the universe was created last year, can not explain such events. So the first model is better. One can not ask whether the universe really existed before a year ago, or just appeared to. In the positivist approach, they are the same.

In an unchanging universe, there would be no natural starting point. The situation changed radically however, when Edwin Hubble began to make observations with the hundred inch telescope on Mount Wilson, in the 1920s.

Hubble found that stars are not uniformly distributed throughout space, but are gathered together in vast collections called galaxies.

By measuring the light from galaxies, Hubble could determine their velocities. He was expecting that as many galaxies would be moving towards us, as were moving away. This is what one would have in a universe that was unchanging with time. But to his surprise, Hubble found that nearly all the galaxies were moving away from us. Moreover, the further galaxies were from us, the faster they were moving away. The universe was not unchanging with time, as everyone had thought previously. It was expanding. The distance between distant galaxies, was increasing with time.

The expansion of the universe, was one of the most important intellectual discoveries of the 20th century, or of any century. It transformed the debate about whether the universe had a beginning. If galaxies are moving apart now, they must have been closer together in the past. If their speed had been constant, they would all have been on top of one another, about 15 billion years ago. Was this, the beginning of the universe.

Many scientists were still unhappy with the universe having a beginning, because it seemed to imply that physics broke down. One would have to invoke an outside agency, which for convenience, one can call God, to determine how the universe began. They therefore advanced theories in which the universe was expanding at the present time, but didn't have a beginning. One was the Steady State theory, proposed by Bondi, Gold, and Hoyle in 1948.

In the Steady State theory, as galaxies moved apart, the idea was that new galaxies would form from matter that was supposed to be continually being created throughout space. The universe would have existed for ever, and would have looked the same at all times. This last property had the great virtue, from a positivist point of view, of being a definite prediction, that could be tested by observation. The Cambridge radio astronomy group, under Martin Ryle, did a survey of weak radio sources in the early 1960s. These were distributed fairly uniformly across the sky, indicating that most of the sources, lay outside our galaxy. The weaker sources would be further away, on average.

The Steady State theory predicted the shape of the graph of the number of sources, against source Strength. But the observations showed more faint sources than predicted, indicating that the density sources was higher in the past. This was contrary to the basic assumption of the Steady State theory, that everything was constant in time. For this, and other reasons, the Steady State theory was abandoned.

Another attempt to avoid the universe having a beginning, was the suggestion that there was a previous contracting phase, but because of rotation and local irregularities, the matter would not all fall to the same point. Instead, different parts of the matter would miss each other, and the universe would expand again, with the density remaining finite. Two Russians, Lifshitz and Khalatnikov, actually claimed to have proved that a general contraction without exact symmetry, would always lead to a bounce, with the density remaining finite. This result was very convenient for Marxist Leninist dialectical materialism, because it avoided awkward questions about the creation of the universe. It therefore became an article of faith for Soviet scientists.

When Lifshitz and Khalatnikov published their claim, I was a 21—year-old research student, looking for something to complete my PhD thesis. I didn't believe their so-called proof, and set out with Roger Penrose to develop new mathematical techniques to study the question. We showed that the universe couldn't bounce. If Einstein's General Theory of Relativity is correct, there will be a singularity, a point of infinite density and space-time curvature, where time has a beginning.

Observational evidence to confirm the idea that the universe had a very dense beginning, came in October 1965, a few months after my first singularity result, with the discovery of a faint background of microwaves throughout space. These microwaves are the same as those in your microwave oven, but very much less powerful. They would heat your pizza only to minus 271 point 3 degrees centigrade, not much good for defrosting the pizza, let alone cooking it. You can actually observe these microwaves yourself. Set your television to an empty channel. A few percent of the snow you see on the screen, will be caused by this background of microwaves. The only reasonable interpretation of the background, is that it is radiation left over from an early very hot and dense state. As the universe expanded, the radiation would have cooled until it is just the faint remnant we observe today.

Although the singularity theorems of Penrose and myself, predicted that the universe had a beginning, they didn't say how it had begun. The equations of General Relativity would break down at the singularity. Thus Einstein's theory can not predict how the universe will begin, but only how it will evolve once it has begun. There are two attitudes one can take to the results of Penrose and myself. One is to that God chose how the universe began for reasons we could not understand. This was the view of Pope John Paul. At a conference on cosmology in the Vatican, the Pope told the delegates that it was OK to study the universe after it began. but they should not inquire into the beginning itself, because that was the moment of creation, and the work of God. I was glad he didn't realize I had presented a paper at the conference, suggesting how the universe began. I didn't fancy the thought of being handed over to the Inquisition, like Galileo.

The other interpretation of our results, which is favored by most scientists, is that it indicates that the General Theory of Relativity, breaks down in the very strong gravitational fields in the early universe. It has to be replaced by a more complete theory.. One would expect this anyway, because General Relativity does not take account of the small scale structure of matter, which is governed by quantum theory. This does not matter normally, because the scale of the universe, is enormous compared to the microscopic scales of quantum theory. But when the universe is the Planck size, a billion trillion trillionth of a centimeter, the two scales are the same, and quantum theory has to be taken into account.

In order to understand the Origin of the universe, we need to combine the General Theory of Relativity, with quantum theory. The best way of doing so, seems to be to use Feynman's idea of a sum over histories. Richard Feynman was a colorful character, who played the bongo drums in a strip joint in Pasadena, and was a brilliant physicist at the California Institute of Technology. He proposed that a system got from a state A, to a state B, by every possible path or history.

Each path or history, has a certain amplitude or intensity, and the probability of the system going from A- to B, is given by adding up the amplitudes for each path. There will be a history in which the moon is made of blue cheese, but the amplitude is low, which is bad news for mice.

The probability for a state of the universe at the present time, is given by adding up the amplitudes for all the histories that end with that state. But how did the histories start. This is the Origin question in another guise. Does it require a Creator to decree how the universe began. Or is the initial state of the universe, determined by a law of science.

In fact, this question would arise even if the histories of the universe went back to the infinite past. But it is more immediate if the universe began only 15 billion years ago. The problem of what happens at the beginning of time, is a bit like the question of what happened at the edge of the world, when people thought the world was flat. Is the world a flat plate, with the sea pouring over the edge. I have tested this experimentally. I have been round the world, and I have not fallen off.

As we all know, the problem of what happens at the edge of the world, was solved when people realized that the world was not a flat plate, but a curved surface. Time however, seemed to be different. It appeared to be separate from space, and to be like a model railway track. If it had a beginning, there would have to be someone to set the trains going.

Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, unified time and space as space-time, but time was still different from space, and was like a corridor, which either had a beginning and end, or went on for ever. However, when one combines General Relativity with Quantum Theory, Jim Hartle and I, realized that time can behave like another direction in space under extreme conditions. This means one can get rid of the problem of time having a beginning, in a similar way in which we got rid of the edge of the world. Suppose the beginning of the universe, was like the south pole of the Earth , with degrees of latitude, playing the role of time. The universe would start as a point at the South Pole. As one moves north, the circles of constant latitude, representing the size of the universe, would expand. To ask what happened before the beginning of the universe, would become a meaningless question, because there is nothing south of the South Pole.

Time, as measured in degrees of latitude, would have a beginning at the South Pole, but the South Pole is much like any other point, at least so I have been told. I have been to Antarctica, but not to the South Pole.

The same laws of Nature hold at the South Pole, as in other places. This would remove the age-old objection to the universe having a beginning, that it would be a place where the normal laws broke down. The beginning of the universe, would be governed by the laws of science.

The picture Jim Hartle and I developed, of the spontaneous quantum creation of the universe, would be a bit like the formation of bubbles of steam in boiling water.
The idea is that the most probable histories of the universe, would be like the surfaces of the bubbles. Many small bubbles would appear, and then disappear again. These would correspond to mini universes that would expand, but would collapse again while still of microscopic size. They are possible alternative universes, but they are not of much interest since they do not last long enough to develop galaxies and stars, let alone intelligent life. A few of the little bubbles, however, with grow to a certain size at which they are safe from recollapse. They will continue to expand at an ever increasing rate, and will form the bubbles we see. They will correspond to universes that would start off expanding at an ever increasing rate. This is called inflation, like the way prices go up every year.

The world record for inflation, was in Germany after the First World War. Prices rose by a factor of ten million in a period of 18 months. But that was nothing compared to inflation in the early universe. The universe expanded by a factor of million trillion trillion in a tiny fraction of a second. Unlike inflation in prices, inflation in the early universe was a very good thing. It produced a very large, and uniform universe, just as we observe. However, it would not be completely uniform. In the sum over histories, histories that are very slightly irregular, will have almost as high probabilities as the completely uniform and regular history.. The theory therefore predicts that the early universe is likely to be slightly non-uniform. These irregularities would produce small variations in the intensity of the microwave background from different directions. The microwave background has been observed by the Map satellite, and was found to have exactly the kind of variations predicted. So we know we are on the right lines.

The irregularities in the early universe, will mean that some regions will have slightly higher density than others. The gravitational attraction of the extra density, will slow the expansion of the region, and can eventually cause the region to collapse to form galaxies and stars. So look well at the map of the microwave sky. It is the blue print for all the structure in the universe. We are the product of quantum fluctuations in the very early universe. God really does play dice.

We have made tremendous progress in cosmology in the last hundred years. The General Theory of Relativity, and the discovery of the expansion of the universe, shattered the old picture of an ever existing, and ever lasting universe. Instead, general relativity predicted that the universe, and time itself, would begin in the big bang. It also predicted that time would come to an end in black holes. The discovery of the cosmic microwave background, and observations of black holes, support these conclusions. This is a profound change in our picture of the universe, and of reality itself.

Although the General Theory of Relativity, predicted that the universe must have come from a period of high curvature in the past, it could not predict how the universe would emerge from the big bang. Thus general relativity on its own, can not answer the central question in cosmology, Why is the universe, the way it is. However, if general relativity is combined with quantum theory, it may be possible to predict how the universe would start. It would initially expand at an ever increasing rate. During this so called inflationary period, the marriage of the two theories predicted that small fluctuations would develop, and lead to the formation of galaxies, stars, and all the other structure in the universe. This is confirmed by observations of small non uniformities in the cosmic microwave background, with exactly the predicted properties. So it seems we are on our way to understanding the origin of the universe, though much more work will be needed. A new window on the very early universe, will be opened when we can detect gravitational waves by accurately measuring the distances between space craft. Gravitational waves propagate freely to us from earliest times, unimpeded by any intervening material. By contrast, light is scattered many times by free electrons. The scattering goes on until the electrons freeze out, after 300,000 years.

Despite having had some great successes, not everything is solved. We do not yet have a good theoretical understanding, of the observations that the expansion of the universe, is accelerating again, after a long period of slowing down. Without such an understanding, we can not be sure of the future of the universe. Will it continue to expand forever? Is inflation a law of Nature? Or will the universe eventually collapse again? New observational results, and theoretical advances, are coming in rapidly. Cosmology is a very exciting and active subject. We are getting close to answering the age old questions. Why are we here? Where did we come from?

Thank you for listening to me.

Comments 1 - 50 of 83 |

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1. Comment #28126 by ao9news on March 28, 2007 at 5:14 am

Hawking's quoting Woody Allen now, hmm

I see now it seems to be his theory which he came up with some years ago already. It's not a new idea of his. And the "bubbles" are theorized by others too.

Other Comments by ao9news

2. Comment #28129 by Yorker on March 28, 2007 at 5:26 am

Nothing new here - talked about for twenty years perhaps.

Although I respect Hawking's achievements, I feel like some others who say he gets a little too much public respect. I felt a little embarassed when he likened himself to Einstein as he admitted his "greatest mistake" a few years ago. I think Roger Penrose was right on the mark when he gave his opinion of where Hawking will rank in scientific history.

Other Comments by Yorker

3. Comment #28133 by steve99 on March 28, 2007 at 5:41 am

 avatarYorker - I agree. Although he is undoubtedly a brilliant mathematical physicist, I don't think he ranks near the brilliance of, say, Ed Witten or Roger Penrose.

Other Comments by steve99

4. Comment #28134 by Aaron on March 28, 2007 at 5:42 am

 avatarYorker,

Hawking made a mistake and admitted it. In science that's cause for celebration. Would you rather he had realized his mistake and kept it to himself?

Other Comments by Aaron

5. Comment #28136 by diquea on March 28, 2007 at 5:49 am

What does Penrose say about Hawking? My respect for Hawking stems more from his determination to work through his disability. Remember that this man cannot write anything. He solves everything within the confines of his head. At least that is my understanding.

Other Comments by diquea

6. Comment #28137 by bujin on March 28, 2007 at 5:50 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Einstein also make his "greatest blunder"?

Mistakes happen. Admitting them deserves respect.

Other Comments by bujin

7. Comment #28144 by Yorker on March 28, 2007 at 6:26 am

4. Comment #28134 by Aaron and Bujin

It was the fact he used the same terminology as Einstein, implying they had similar abilities, that I and others didn't like. Also, other physicists, notably Susskind, had been saying he was wrong before he admitted it but Stephen would not give in. Eventually of course, he had to, the error correcting method of science does not "allow" people to hide mistakes.

5. Comment #28136 by diquea

Penrose said Hawking did not rank with Newton, Einstein or Dirac. Roger was too modest to include himself, so I'll include him here myself and concur with the comment made by Steve99. No need to remind me of Stephen's disability, as I said in my original post, I respect him. What is now called "Hawking Radiation" was probably his best work. If you do a little research you'll discover that many physicists hold a similar opinion to mine.

Science respects no authority and grants no sentimental points to those physically less able than others, sad perhaps, but that's the way it is.

Other Comments by Yorker

8. Comment #28145 by robinco on March 28, 2007 at 6:31 am

And what is Hawking's definition of "nothing", then?

Other Comments by robinco

9. Comment #28147 by The Wee Flea on March 28, 2007 at 6:34 am

Creation ex nihilio! Brilliant. Now where have I heard that one before?

Other Comments by The Wee Flea

10. Comment #28150 by diquea on March 28, 2007 at 6:43 am

7. Comment #28144 by Yorker on March 28, 2007 at 6:26 am

I don't question that other scientists hold that opinion or not, and don't really care. I know they do, I just wanted to know what Penrose had said.

I find it amazing that the guy can do complex equations in his head. I don't think that makes him an authority.

Other Comments by diquea

11. Comment #28153 by Yorker on March 28, 2007 at 6:44 am

8. Comment #28145 by robinco

I'm not sure if you're asking me?

The original big-bang model meant precisely that:
nothing, "no thing". The common error is that people assume that there was something for the Universe to expand into, i.e. a pre-existing void. Not so; everything, including space and time began with the big-bang, that's why it makes no sense to ask what happened before the big-bang, "before" is a temporal word so it only makes sense to ask what happened after the event.

Now of course, the mega or multiverse idea changes things a little but an explanation is beyond the scope of a comment like this.

Other Comments by Yorker

12. Comment #28154 by poundemonium on March 28, 2007 at 6:52 am

The Wee Flea. First, it's spelled "ex nihilo." If you're implying that science is converging with deistic creationism you couldn't be farther off the mark. The singularity that occasioned the much-misunderstood "Big Bang" wasn't "created," in the traditional sense of the term. I'll refer you to comment #28153 by Yorker for the theoretical underpinnings.

Other Comments by poundemonium

13. Comment #28156 by Yorker on March 28, 2007 at 6:55 am

10. Comment #28150 by diquea

"I find it amazing that the guy can do complex equations in his head. I don't think that makes him an authority."

I find it amazing also, but there must be a limit to that. Don't forget he uses a speech-enabled computer to convey his ideas to a highly qualified assistant who blackboards equations for him.

Other Comments by Yorker

14. Comment #28158 by ao9news on March 28, 2007 at 7:03 am

Yorker, I agree, for whatever I know, that Hawking's greatest achievement was discovering that black holes radiate, so to speak. But as far as I know, this hasn't been been detected. I guess it would be too difficult considering the circumstances. It's pretty much accepted though, I guess.

So I agree that he's not Newton, Einstein or Heisenberg, or even Bohr or Weinberg or Witten. But what has Roger Penrose done that gets him in those ranks? I'm just curious.

Other Comments by ao9news

15. Comment #28159 by Rtambree on March 28, 2007 at 7:04 am

In the beginning was nothing, which exploded...

- Terry Pratchett

Other Comments by Rtambree

16. Comment #28161 by Yorker on March 28, 2007 at 7:15 am

14. Comment #28158 by ao9news

Well, it's doubtful that Hawking would have the public adulation he has were it not for Penrose, much of his earlier work was in collaboration with Roger. In my opinion, Stephen does not make that clear enough.

As for the ranking of Roger Penrose, his work on singularities, his mathematical discoveries, his genius, and his superbly insightful books make him a strong all-time contender for the top-ten. Myself, I think in his prime Penrose was one of the three smartest men who ever lived.

I would guess that ten times as many people know of Hawking than know of Penrose, the public love an underdog, underdog status was what Stephen's disability bestowed upon him.

Other Comments by Yorker

17. Comment #28164 by Spinoza on March 28, 2007 at 7:27 am

 avatarThis is retarded...

I really wish Einstein hadn't recanted his view on this in favour of the pseudo-Christian ex-nihilo big bang...

There's NO reason to think there was "nothing"... I don't care what the math tells you... the math is wrong.

Other Comments by Spinoza

18. Comment #28166 by Spinoza on March 28, 2007 at 7:29 am

 avatarAnd by the way, Penrose isn't even close to the top 10 smartest ever.

1. Geothe
2. Einstein
3. Leibniz
4. Newton
5. Spinoza
6. Plato
7. Aristotle
8. Kant
9. Wittgenstein
10. Hume

Q.E.D.

Other Comments by Spinoza

19. Comment #28168 by Yorker on March 28, 2007 at 7:40 am

17. Comment #28164 by Spinoza

"This is retarded...

I really wish Einstein hadn't recanted his view on this in favour of the pseudo-Christian ex-nihilo big bang..."

Are you saying the Big-Bang theory was Einstein's?

"I don't care what the math tells you... the math is wrong."

Possibly, let's hear your alternative explanation.


18. Comment #28166 by Spinoza

I gave my opinion, you can only give yours.

Other Comments by Yorker

20. Comment #28169 by Fouad Boussetta on March 28, 2007 at 7:41 am

 avatarI agree with "Spinoza" (17.): I think that Hawking, no matter how prodigal, is wrong here.
Read "In defense of common sense" by science journalist John Horgan, at:

http://www.johnhorgan.org/work5.htm

Other Comments by Fouad Boussetta

21. Comment #28170 by ao9news on March 28, 2007 at 7:43 am

I have heard about Goethe being the smartest person before. I don't believe in such rankings, but I am intrigued, now that you mention it again, such an unlikely character to be the top one. Where did you get that information?

Also, I think most scientists that understand Newton and Einstein agree that Newton was probably a higher genius. I like Einstein's stuff more, but I don't understand the mathematics, so I'll go by their word. And I don't think you could tell the genius of such people as Plato and Aristotle. They're too far back, who knows what other people could have been smarter than them.

Other Comments by ao9news

22. Comment #28171 by Rtambree on March 28, 2007 at 7:43 am

The highest IQ ever measured is Francis Galton's, about 200. He was a cousin of Charles Darwin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Galton


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23. Comment #28175 by Yorker on March 28, 2007 at 7:52 am

21. Comment #28170 by ao9news

A fair comment. Indeed, how can anyone give a realistic assessment about the intelligence of a historical person? It can only come from writings and what others say, Spinoza above (not the real one) gives us a list that he must have got from somewhere/someone else. In addition, I suspect the real Spinoza would not characterize others as "retarded" and would at least have the balls to mention exactly who he meant if he had!

Other Comments by Yorker

24. Comment #28176 by Yorker on March 28, 2007 at 8:01 am

22. Comment #28171 by Rtambree

It is my understanding that the IQ scale does not go higher than 170, I'll check that wiki article but have to admit my decreasing confidence in wikipedia, I've encountered a few errors in my own field to trust it much as a font of knowledge.

Other Comments by Yorker

25. Comment #28177 by Ewan D on March 28, 2007 at 8:06 am

*LONG QUOTE ALERT*

From Victor Stenger's 'God - The Failed Hypothesis'



'...the existence of mass in the universe violates no law of nature. It can come from energy. But, where does the energy come from? The law of conservation of energy, also known as the first law of thermodynamics, requires that energy come from somewhere. In principle, the creation hypothesis could be confirmed by the direct observation or theoretical requirement that conservation of energy was violated 13.7 billion years ago at the start of the big bang.
However, neither observations nor theory indicate this to have been the case. The first law allows energy to convert from one type to another as long as the total for a closed system remains fixed. Remarkably, the sum of the measured sum of the rest and kinetic energies of the bodies in the universe seems to be exactly cancelled by the negative potential energy that results from their mutual gravitational interactions. Within small measurement errors and quantum uncertainties, the mean energy density of the universe is exactly what it should be for a universe that appeared from an initial state of zero energy, within a small quantum uncertainty.
A close balance between positive and negative energy is predicted by the modern extension of the big-bang theory called the inflationary big bang, according to which the universe underwent a period of rapid, exponential inflation during a tiny fraction of its first second. The inflationary theory has recently undergone a number of stringent observational tests that would have been sufficient to prove it false. So far, it has passed these tests with flying colors.
In short, the existence of matter and energy in the universe did not require the violation of energy conservation at the assumed creation. In fact, the data strongly support the hypothesis that no such miracle occurred. If we regard such a miracle as predicted by the creator hypothesis, then that prediction is not confirmed.'

Having taken Stenger's word for it as far as I can, I still share our resident Spinoza's gnawing discomfort!

Other Comments by Ewan D

26. Comment #28178 by Yorker on March 28, 2007 at 8:29 am

I'm getting an impression of confusion here, it's a mistake to think that big-bang theory is somehow related to the "GodDidIt" bullshit.

Those of us not expert in quantum theory will naturally have a "gnawing discomfort" of something coming from nothing. All I can say is this. If you think that's mind boggling, think again, you have some shocks in store if you study further. You will say, "never", "no-way", "ridiculous" etc. etc. But the inescapable fact is that all these counter-intuitive, non-commonsensical things come from quantum mechanics which is by far the most accurate theory we have yet produced.

Accept it or give us a better explanation of the Universe and the human condition.

Other Comments by Yorker

27. Comment #28179 by Rtambree on March 28, 2007 at 8:50 am

26. Yorker.

Yeah, but where did the laws of quantum mechanics come from? Surely you can see it's not a satisfying answer.

Martin Ree's Multiverse, of which we occupy a "Hubble bubble", which is infinite in time, is more aesthetically pleasing. But I admit, it's thinking with my gut.

Is it possible to have "nothing"? What about abstract concepts such as the number 2 or pi? Surely they always exist in some Platonic realm and can't be imagined away.

Other Comments by Rtambree

28. Comment #28181 by Quine on March 28, 2007 at 8:52 am

 avatar'Spinoza', how could you leave Archimedes off the list when he had the major part of Calculus almost 2000 years before Liebniz and Newton?

Other Comments by Quine

29. Comment #28182 by BaronOchs on March 28, 2007 at 9:02 am

 avatar
And what is Hawking's definition of "nothing", then?


Interesting question, If he means something like the quantum vacuum that is a fairly specified form of nothing.

If the universe popped out of nothing from that then new questions emerge.

Such as could reality at bottom have been different, such that the universe's popping into being wouldn't have happened, or (a) different universe(s) may have come to be instead, or none.

The real challenge is to identify an initial state that would not require anything to cause it's existence and couldn't coherently be said not to exist, and to plot out the universes development from that. Perhaps Hawking and others are close to that philosophically strong position I don't know?

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30. Comment #28184 by BaronOchs on March 28, 2007 at 9:09 am

 avatari.e. I would agree with Rtambree that mathematical concepts have an uncaused platonic existence. What is needed is a rigorously defined physical concept that has just such the same existence, and can be said to have given rise to the more contingent things we now observe (like the laws of physics).

People who think this is ridiculously ambitious might want to observe how through an at heart very simple process all of life came to be from simple pre-existing elements. Essentially we need an even more radical account along the same lines.

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31. Comment #28185 by amazeen on March 28, 2007 at 9:13 am

 avatarSome of the remarks here are similar to peoples objection of the vacum in earlier times. Some concepts are to strange to accept intuitively but are nevertheless confirmed with great accuracy by experiment.

I think it is extremely hard to make a list of the 10 smartest people in history, but Spinoza: What about Archimedes, Gauss, Poincare, von Neumann or the person I think is a contender for the top spot Alexandre Grothendieck.

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32. Comment #28186 by JeffW on March 28, 2007 at 9:15 am

This "smartest person" stuff is silly. There have been many "geniuses" in many fields througout history, both acclaimed and unknown. Certainly Archimedes and many other Greeks. How about DaVinci? Bach? Beethoven? Shakespeare? etc...

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33. Comment #28188 by BaronOchs on March 28, 2007 at 9:20 am

 avatarTo hammer my point out at too much length let me just also say, regarding the relevance of this to God: Even if there is an omnipotent, omniscient being, it couldn't make 2+2=5, or create a square circle. Contrary to the suggestion of the title of a recent book edited by Hawking
God did not create the integers, they exist in virtue of their own definition!

Of course if we wish to ground physics in thus such a simple foundation it is possible an omnipotent being might be what foots the bill. But since attempts to demonstrate god enjoys such existence, like the ontological argument, have failed I don't think we'll find this to be the case.

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34. Comment #28190 by Yorker on March 28, 2007 at 9:25 am

27. Comment #28179 by Rtambree

I don't know where the laws of quantum come from, I suspect that like the other laws of physics, they are the outcome of mathematical constructs. I can do no better than quote Sagan about gut feelings; I try not to have them.

As far mumbers in a Platonic realm, that means little to me. We once had a very unwieldy number system until the "zero" was invented in India, life was a lot easier after that.

I'm not nearly as smart as Richard Feynman was, but I like to think I have a brain like his, at least I think the same way. He often said it sometimes made no sense to waste too much time wondering why things were "that way", "that's just the way they are". This mode of thought won him a Nobel prize for QED.

When I hear certain philosophical ideas put forward that set off my BDK, Richard's words about "dopey" philosophical statements, ring in my ears and I tend to listen no further. I have nothing against philosophers but they don't produce terrific usable results that I can apply. Look at that list above, a lot of philosophers, Feynman isn't even in it! What a travesty! Of course, it was probably compiled by a philosopher.

My attitude is simple, if a proposition is elegant but untestable, it's an idea, not a theory. If I can't come up with a more plausible idea I don't resort to philosophy, I say nothing.

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35. Comment #28192 by Yorker on March 28, 2007 at 9:31 am

Isn't it remarkable that all this sprung from my simple opinion that Hawking had more public recognition than he deserved!

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36. Comment #28193 by Rtambree on March 28, 2007 at 9:36 am

33. The platonic / reality divide was the original dichotomy in intellectual history.

e.g. There are perfect circles in my mind, but there aren't any perfect circles in reality.

Naturally, this evolves into theology (we are Fallen - our morality doesn't conform to the ideal). It was St Augustine that Platonised early Christianity, with his distaste for the real world.

Killing in the name of any ideology is a manifestation of the same ideal/real divide: Communism, Fascism, Monotheism, etc where an abstract ideal is elevated above the individual.

But back to physics & cosmology - how do you get from the self-evident logic of mathematical Truths that necessarily exist a priori to a material world of energy, matter, time, & space? That is THE question.

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37. Comment #28194 by Spinoza on March 28, 2007 at 9:51 am

 avatarLOL, Yorker, I made that list up off the top of my head.. I didn't "get it from somewhere"...

And Quine, yeah you're right... Archimedes is up there, but Leibniz didn't ONLY invent calculus on his own (after Newton), but he was a polymath, he was doing huge amounts of philosophy (he has some 30,000 pages that have yet to be translated into English at an archive in Germany)... he invented a computer 300 years before anyone else (it never got built)... etc. etc. Of all the universal geniuses, Leibniz was one of the best... even though I personally don't like his work in Philosophy (too Christian, lol).

Anyway... the objections to the things I said are funny... When I said "This is retarded" I meant the article... I meant the idea that the universe was created ex-nihilo. Nothing more... I do not engage in ad hominems... I didn't mean YOU were retarded, Yorker... I have no idea why you got so defensive...

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38. Comment #28196 by Spinoza on March 28, 2007 at 10:00 am

 avatarYeah... I should clarify... I didn't mean my list of 10 people to be exhaustive, nor uncontroversial, nor correct, nor absolute... it was just an example of 10 people I'd think of before thinking of Hawking or Penrose, or Godel for that matter... or Turing, or Dawkins, or Weinberg, or Descartes...

Yorker is actually creeping me out a little bit, he is starting to remind me of Stuart Hammeroff... getting angry and defensive when people don't agree with his narrow subjective view of things... The similarities go as far as this worship of Penrose...

Oh and I should also mention that there are random Penrose worshipping nut jobs on several forums I've been to... or maybe there's just one, and it's Yorker.

Of course Penrose did some great work, and Hawking has done some... but they're human... as Einstein was... and as EVERYONE is.. and they can fuck up... they can have limitations to their understanding... their view of the world can be mistaken...

And in this case, I'd say logic is clearly failing some great minds...

When Quantum physicists talk about "nothing" they don't literally mean "nothing" the way it's used in colloquial language... and if they do... they're confused...

Real creation ex-nihilo is pure and utter nonsense. If quantum physics is telling us that that's what happened, then there's something wrong with quantum physics...

I am not going to venture a guess as to what... though I have an idea, based on what little I know of the field...

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39. Comment #28197 by BaronOchs on March 28, 2007 at 10:03 am

 avatarIndeed Rtambree it is a very big question, and even if there is an answer it may be that we will never know what it is.

But a few thoughts that encourage me to the position I've outlined are first of all, evolution:

So long as you have
1.Replication
2.Variation
3.Selection pressure

In the absence of any impediment imposed from outside you will see in such a scenario a darwinian process emerge. And that is true even if as it happens God did create the world in six days. The necessity of it is the same as the necessity of 2+2 equaling 4. So there we see one route out of this world into the world of necessary platonic existence.

Secondly it is not obvious to me that the notion of absolute nothing, which I can't conceive of, though I can conceive of conceiving of it so to speak, assumes less than any other basic concept we might rely on. It may be that simply an information free chaotic state can be assumed. And that there is a route for this to progress to a more ordered state (perhaps through a darwinian process?).

Of course this is entirely speculative, but I ask critics to offer even some more plausible speculations about the what-ultimately-is questions.

Concerning Augustine it's interesting to note he said God created the world in 6 days because six is a perfect number. i.e. 1+2+3=6 and 1*2*3=6. The number was perfect first and god acted accordingly, not the other way round.

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40. Comment #28199 by Fishpeddler on March 28, 2007 at 10:05 am

 avatarI thought your list was fun, Spinoza, but I have some serious doubts about how smart any of these guys were:

1. Goethe -- A polymath, like Liebniz. That's just another way of saying he couldn't decide what he wanted to be when he grew up.
2. Einstein -- couldn't figure out how to work a comb to save his life.
3. Liebniz -- couldn't even remember there was a letter 't' in his last name.

Etc.

Also, two glaring omissions: Da Vinci and myself. Presumably I'm in the 11th slot, though, so I won't make a fuss. Now I gotta go, because for some strange reason the can of corn I just put in the microwave is sparking like crazy.

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41. Comment #28218 by Rtambree on March 28, 2007 at 12:04 pm

BaronOchs says "it's interesting to note he said God created the world in 6 days because six is a perfect number. i.e. 1+2+3=6 and 1*2*3=6. The number was perfect first and god acted accordingly, not the other way round."

Good point. God is subservient to a higher order of beauty, perfection, symmetry, etc. Of course, postmodernists like Michael Frayn insist that even these abstractions and mathematical logic are also human constructs, and they wouldn't exist if there was no life. To him, the question is - if a circle forms in the forest, does anybody see?

I don't subscribe to that - for sorts of reasons, but one of them would be the principle of mediocrity that permeates human intellectual endeavour. Stephen Jay Gould called it pedestal smashing. The angles in a Euclidean triange add to 180 degrees, whether homo sapiens exist or not.

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42. Comment #28221 by Yorker on March 28, 2007 at 12:19 pm

My dear Spinoza, you talk as if you were the REAL Spinoza, better yet, the arrogance of some of your statements makes me think you might think you're the one true GOD!

I gave an opinion about Penrose and lo, I'm a Penrose worshipper! Holy shit, what a deduction! Your use of the word "retarded" made me think you were aiming at the posts of some others, not me, so I wasn't being defensive. I was merely wondering why you would use such an insulting term to describe anyone who had not insulted you. Of course, in so doing, you have left yourself wide open to the retaliatory insult I shall shortly hurl in your direction.

Incidentally, it was Schickard who invented the first non-programmable calculating machine in 1623. It could be called a computer.

You spout crap about quantum physicists being confused, tell us you have a better idea but are unwilling, unable or scared to air it. Why don't you just say your admitted knowledge of the field is insufficient to enable discourse? Better still, you could have just said nothing and I would never have realised you were a dozy wanker!

Anyhow, I have better things to do than argue with pseudo-philosophers who have to use a real philosopher's name because they lack the imagination to come up with an original one; and you call ME a worshipper! Tut tut, your god the real Spinoza would've been ashamed of you!

Ahh, is there anything better than getting up the nose of one so deserving as you? I think not. You have made my night so I'll leave you now to fume, stew and simmer for a while. :)

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43. Comment #28222 by reggiedixon on March 28, 2007 at 12:23 pm

This thread is a useful illustration of how ranking lists are bonkers, for every Einstein, how many Ramanujans were there who never got discovered ? Does a great discovery make someone smarter than a small, incremental discovery ? How ? Is intelligent, diligent progress resulting in a great breakthrough somehow better or worse than a flash of inspiration getting to a slightly less great breakthrough?
What if one scientist's Dad was bigger than the other scientist's Dad?

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44. Comment #28223 by Graham on March 28, 2007 at 12:33 pm

 avatarI don't care what you guys say, I still got a thrill when on a rare visit to Oxford I looked over to see Hawkings with his assistant sat next to us in the Turf Tavern!

http://www.theturftavern.co.uk/directions.html

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45. Comment #28228 by Fedler on March 28, 2007 at 12:38 pm

 avatarYorker and Spinoza, truce already!

Actually the onus of this thread was how Hawking appears to have said the universe started from nothing (which, from the first initial posts, appears to be no new speculation), and I believe Hawking did say more was needed to prove this. So, at this point, this thought appears to be nothing but a very rough, yet very pink, unicorn.

Besides, I'm now more interested in how Fishpeddler's corn turned out.

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46. Comment #28229 by Fedler on March 28, 2007 at 12:40 pm

 avatarGraham,

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall next to Hawking's table!

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47. Comment #28230 by steve99 on March 28, 2007 at 12:45 pm

 avatarThe problem with discussing matters like the origin of the universe is that our language does not really cope well with this kind of thing, and common sense is not that good either. (Certainly, the language that Hawking seems to have used is not that clear). What I find interesting is that in this area modern physics seems to be on the way to making so many philosophical and theological debates redundant. There are many ideas about why the universe exists that don't require any idea of a definite beginning but neither do they ask us to believe the universe has always existed. Some work in String theory suggests that both time and space might be the secondary result of other interactions (although language fails us, as what does 'interaction' mean if there is no time?). One of Hawking's ideas was 'imaginary time' - there was no beginning, and time appeared smoothly from a space dimension. Other physicists (Andre Linde) have suggested that our apparently linear time split off from what was originally a time loop.

This all makes discussion of 'first cause' look rather like a debate about the geometry of a flat Earth - irrelevant and outdated.

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48. Comment #28234 by Druid on March 28, 2007 at 1:11 pm

 avatarDoes Hawking mean there is a God?
As far as I know, he was a non-believer in Einsteinian sense, Has he changed his ideas?

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49. Comment #28236 by Mark R on March 28, 2007 at 1:14 pm

 avatarHawkings best contribution to my life is this:

I read the Universe in a nut shell and then went back to the bookstore for another. This is a few years ago now. When looking for another of his books on the shelf i found another book from an author with a name similiar to his i picked it up it was called the selfish Gene the rest they say is history and have not read any of Hawkings books since due to my new direction of reading.

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50. Comment #28238 by Fishpeddler on March 28, 2007 at 1:21 pm

 avatarFedler: The corn was inedible -- too many new life forms had been spontaneously generated. That's what I deserve for combining matter and energy. Damned evolution! All I want is a hot lunch!

(I guess I just haven't been able to let go of the peanut butter video)

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