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Tuesday, April 10, 2007 | Reason : Backlash | print version Print | Comments

Document Is God poison?

by Brian Bethune

Reposted from:
http://www.macleans.ca/homepage/magazine/article.jsp?content=20070416_104182_104182

A new movement blames God for every social problem from Darfur to child abuse

God is a delusion, if his enemies are to be believed: nothing more than the creation of a species with prefrontal lobes too small, and aggressive instincts too strong, for its own good. His worship is poison: his adherents commit child abuse -- metaphoric and actual -- on a daily basis; and the murderous clashes of rival gangs of his followers are the greatest single threat to humanity's future. Whatever else God may be, he is most assuredly not dead. You can take his critics' word, and the depth of their passion, for that.

Next month sees the publication of Christopher Hitchens' God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, a coruscating moral denunciation by the polemicist tutti polemicists. It will join the steady stream of atheist texts that began five years ago, after 9/11 so brutally demonstrated that religious fanaticism is still a force to be reckoned with. So too is atheism, at least as far as book sales go. Oxford scientist Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion, which combines merciless schoolboy-level mockery of religion with the lessons of evolutionary biology, has been a fixture on bestseller lists since the fall. Letter to a Christian Nation, in which American Sam Harris casually states that raising children to believe they are members of a religious group is a "ludicrous obscenity," nevertheless became a Book-of-the-Month club selection last year. And Michel Onfray's In Defense of Atheism, which drips with Gallic scorn for the feeble-minded faithful, and praises the French Revolution for turning all the churches into hospitals, was a bestseller across Europe and, in translation, now on this side of the Atlantic as well.

"The argument between faith and non-faith is cresting again, in a way that's not been seen since the Scopes monkey trial," Hitchens says over the phone from his Washington home. "Whether we're arguing about intervening in Darfur or about the recognition of gay marriage, underneath we're always arguing about religion." He could easily have added from an endless series of other topics across Europe and North America: hot-button issues in a debate many thought was long over.

Today, 82 years after Scopes, the never-ending struggle between supporters and opponents over inserting Intelligent Design, creationism's latest incarnation, into the nation's schools is a religious fight. (It's one that invokes fierce passions: judges who have ruled ID unconstitutional have received death threats.) Angry debates over the permissibility of abortion, euthanasia, stem-cell research, and the public display of religious symbols and icons are all essentially faith-based. In America many of the devout not only wish to maintain the customary display of Christmas imagery in public places, but add to it, in particular by posting the Ten Commandments in courthouses.

In more secular Canada the now-settled issue of gay marriage rights was fought over scriptural grounds; so is the residual matter of whether marriage commissioners can opt out of officiating gay weddings. As with pursuing conscientious objector status in wartime, only a religious justification will receive even a hearing. A tiny Quebec town's adoption of "standards" for its (non-existent) immigrants is now internationally infamous. Across the country there have been fights over practices associated with the stricter forms of various religions -- wearing facial veils (Islam), carrying even symbolic weapons (Sikhism), gender segregation (Judaism) and the less-than-scientific biology taught in some religious schools (Christianity).

No surprise, then, that what Hitchens calls "the oldest argument in human history" is increasingly engaging the public. In London's Westminster Central Hall on March 27, some 2,000 people turned out to hear Hitchens, Dawkins and philosopher A.C. Grayling debate a trio of religious authorities on the question "We'd be better off without Religion." (The motion carried, 1,205 to 778.) Hitchens is pleased to see the interest. He thinks it's a sign of hope. "We atheists never thought religion would die out," he continues, "because it comes from fear of death, but we did think theocracy would die. Instead, those of us who used to think we'd just live a life free from religion are fed up with insults and threats from believers, with Danish cartoonists who can't work and murdered Dutch filmmakers, with saying getting AIDS is better, more godly, than using condoms. You know who's a neighbour of mine now? Ayaan Hirsi Ali -- America's first refugee from western Europe in living memory."

As Hitchens suggests, atheists were already uneasy with trends in their own Western societies when they awoke to the rude shock of Islamic terrorism -- the attacks in New York, London and Madrid, the murderous Sunni-Shia civil war in Iraq. The events galvanized them, but not only against militant Islam, as one might expect. The atheist authors all agree a clash of civilizations is under way, but it's not between East and West, or Muslims and Christians, but between rationality and superstition. Onfray, who despises equally what he calls "the fascism of the lion" (the Western side) and the "fascism of the fox" (the Muslim world), refuses to take sides, while Dawkins and Harris are primarily devoted to battling American Christianity.

The Oxford professor, in particular, seems genuinely worried over the possible emergence of the ultimate rogue state, a nuclear-armed American Christian fundamentalist theocracy. (Dawkins' anti-religious beliefs are tightly grafted to his anti-Americanism. Especially his anti-Bushism: "I just can't stand the man's style," he told the Times of London, "the way he swaggers and struts and smirks and the way he looks sly and deceitful and the way Americans can't see it.") Like Harris, Dawkins thinks something can and should be done about this -- oddly enough, through ridicule of "dyed-in-the-wool faith-heads."

Hitchens, on the other hand, is virtually the last leftist supporter remaining for George W. Bush's war in Iraq, and finds himself rather in the position of Churchill making common cause with Stalin. ("If Hitler had invaded hell," the wartime British prime minister remarked, he, Churchill, would at least have made "a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons.") As a British expat and an admirer of Hirsi Ali, who was driven from Holland by Islamic death threats, Hitchens is not inclined to see Europe as the font of all secular virtues, or America as its antithesis. (Not like Harris, an American who constantly exudes the impression his overtly religious countrymen are embarrassing him in front of the Europeans.) And he allows himself to have been a "guarded admirer" of Pope John Paul II's moral and physical courage.

But even Hitchens can find no good in religion that is not dwarfed by the virtues of humane secularism. He -- far more than the other authors -- never takes his eyes for long off the real shooting war going on alongside the ideological struggle. "As I write these words," Hitchens pens in conscious echo of the celebrated opening of George Orwell's 1941 essay, "The Lion and the Unicorn," "people of faith are in their different ways planning your and my destruction, and the destruction of all the hard-won human attainments that I have touched upon. Religion poisons everything."

The thrust of all four books is a common assault on the world's three great monotheisms. They have a field day with the soft targets Judaism, Christianity and Islam present: the sexual obsession, the dizzying array of contradictions between and within the faiths and, above all, with the violence they've unleashed on humanity. The common God of the Old Testament is painted as a terrifying, murderous tyrant -- a God whose followers can find ample precedent for their most homicidal impulses. But Yahweh's not the only culprit. Hitchens devotes a chapter to hacking away at Eastern religions -- pointing out that it was Hindu Tamils on Sri Lanka who, long before Hezbollah and al-Qaeda, pioneered "the disgusting tactic of suicide murder," and the enthusiastic participation of Japanese Buddhists in their country's genocidal 20th-century wars.

Indeed, in ways large and small, from the Biblical accounts of slaughter in the Holy Land through Christianity and Islam's recurrent fratricidal wars, to the genocide in heavily Catholic Rwanda (for which numerous clergy have been charged with war crimes), the religious record is blood-soaked. The 20th century was not much better than the dim past, Hitchens points out, even if you exclude religion's snug embrace with fascist regimes, which Hitchens emphatically refuses to do. "No one can tell me fascism was not a religious movement at bottom," he says. Consider that most of it took place in Catholic countries, often formalized by concordats with the Vatican, or that the Greek Orthodox Church blessed the junta colonels, or Hitler's Nordic paganism; "and, of course, it was literally true in Imperial Japan, that Buddhist-militarist alliance."

Religion kills, Hitchens says, because it is tribal and totalitarian, the most extreme form of in-group/out-group marker ever known. Although some faiths are more pacific than others, that has more to do with their relative powerlessness -- were the Amish, say, to rise to supreme authority over other faiths, they would soon begin to resemble the medieval Catholic Church. Power corrupts religion uniquely; because it considers its doctrines uniquely right, it necessarily seeks to interfere in the lives of non-believers. Thus religion offers a constantly available licence for ordinary people to behave cruelly, sometimes "in ways that would make a brothel-keeper or an ethnic cleanser raise an eyebrow." The entire history of Christian anti-Semitism -- not to mention its racial offspring, the Nazis' Final Solution -- is a case in point. And the cruelty and irrationality is still enacted regularly in less violent ways in the present day.

Two of the monotheisms, each with millions of followers in Africa, campaign against condom use in a continent rife with AIDS. One can only infer they think the cure -- non-fatal sexual relations -- is worse than the disease. Outside of the religious box, who could possibly come to that conclusion? Members of the Bush administration resist funding the vaccine against human papilloma virus, a sexually transmitted disease that causes cervical cancer, on the grounds that fear of the disease should act as a deterrent to premarital sex. Or, if you get cancer, as just punishment for it.

Then there's the even more grotesque situation that unfolded in New York in 2005, cited by Hitchens in his book. It concerns a 57-year-old mohel, a Jewish circumciser, who like many deeply Orthodox mohels practised an ancient form of his ritual. In this now-rarevariant, the mohel completes circumcision by taking the infant's penis in his mouth and sucking off the amputated foreskin. By so doing, the New York mohel gave herpes to at least three babies, killing one of them and bringing brain damage to another. It's estimated that two-thirds of all adults, most of them unknowingly, have the oral herpes virus, which merely leads to cold sores in them while posing a mortal threat to infant brains. The risk of contracting it from a mohel is slight indeed -- fewer than a dozen cases have been recorded, including one in Toronto in 1994, in the past 15 years. It's slight but real, nonetheless, and the need for the procedure, from any rational perspective, is non-existent. But in an election year, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg backed off from the city health department's recommended ban, in the name of freedom of religion.

But, for the atheists, the entire religious response to death, and to a lesser degree, pain and suffering, is dangerously and immorally irrational to begin with. As far as they're concerned, believers are repellently willing to allow their own -- even their own children -- to die in the name of sacred tradition, because the desire for death is something inherent in monotheism. "Being told you're not really going to die is simply contemptible," Hitchens remarks. "Those who offer false consolation are false friends. Especially when behind that lie is the religious' dirty little secret: they want the world to end, they pray for the end to come soon." Christian obsession with the end of the world has real world implications, Harris notes. Almost half the American population professes the belief that Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead within the next 50 years. That means, adds Harris, that should New York be destroyed in a nuclear fireball, "some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver lining. Beliefs of this sort do little to help us create a durable future for ourselves."

Moderate believers naturally won't recognize themselves in these portraits of a bloody pathology, nor should they. But the story of the mohel brings up an aspect of the atheist argument that is even more enraging for believers. Religion claims a central role in the protection of children -- in Christianity, the command comes directly from Jesus: "Whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea" (Mark 9:42). But the atheists argue that the monotheistic record, beginning with the chilling story of Abraham's willingness to obey God's command to slay his son Isaac -- a foundational myth for all three faiths -- is one of constant child abuse. It runs the gamut from the contemporary Catholic Church's pedophilia scandal, in which known rapists were protected and moved from parish to parish, to religiously sanctioned female genital mutilation, to Jehovah's Witnesses refusing blood transfusions for their offspring, to the regular instilling of religious terror.

Dawkins writes of Colorado pastor Keenan Roberts, who runs what he calls "hell houses," where children are taken by their parents to be frightened by actors playing out "scenes" of abortion and homosexuality, and by hell itself, complete with recorded screams and the smell of burning sulphur. The fear of damnation, in its most literal and lurid forms, has been thrust into impressionable children's minds for millennia as a means of binding them to their faith. "Millions when young have had this particular terror inflicted on them," Hitchens says. "As for what happened behind the arras," he adds in reference to sexual abuse, "well, what can one say?"

In actual fact, quite a lot, if you're Christopher Hitchens. "If I was suspected of raping a child, or torturing a child, or infecting one with a venereal disease, I might consider committing suicide whether I was guilty or not. If I had actually committed the offence, I would welcome death. Religion, because it claims a special divine exemption, is not just amoral but immoral."

The polemicists' total rejection of faith makes the very existence of religious moderates a puzzle to them. (Dawkins, in particular, seems spiritually deaf to everything from the sense of wonder to the pull of family and community.) Except, perhaps, for Hitchens, who seems to be the only one who admits to having religious friends, the atheists' own dirty little secret -- their contempt for moderates -- is never far from the surface of their books. They assert that moderates enable fanatics by allowing religious arguments a privileged place -- it was a liberal Catholic debating partner who told Hitchens that religious liberty demanded that mohels be allowed to carry out their ancient rite as they saw fit. "In a funny way," Dawkins said in an interview last fall in reference to one devout scientist, "I have more respect for a young creationist," referring to someone who proclaims that life on earth is only 6,000 years old.

That contempt, along with the stridency and a totalitarian disdain for everything to do with religion, is rooted in fear and failure. They think they're losing. The triumph of atheism, so confidently proclaimed by its prophets more than a century ago, now seems as far off as the Second Coming. In 1867, in his landmark poem "Dover Beach," Matthew Arnold could only hear the "melancholy, long, withdrawing roar" of the sea of faith, but the religious tide has turned with a vengeance. "This Letter," Harris concludes his book, "is the product of failure -- the failure of many brilliant attacks upon religion that preceded it, the failure of our schools to announce the death of God in a way that each generation can understand, failures great and small that have kept almost every society on this earth muddling over God and despising those who muddle differently."

The mock humility of this may be worthy of a televangelist -- can't Harris see a single positive reason for religion's ongoing vigour? -- but it is the atheist perspective encapsulated. That makes it an enigma for Christians, particularly those outside robustly religious America. Aren't the ungodly in charge now, the churches empty on Sunday, religious leaders and religious viewpoints shouted out of the political arena? Are not contraception, abortion and, very soon, homosexual marriage the norm across the Western world? Who's winning this war anyway?

Maybe nobody, maybe each side's reading -- that the other guys are surging -- is correct. In sexual morality, the religious would argue, the secular-minded have effectively won the day. Even the U.S. Christian right, bitterly opposed to gay marriage and abortion (although more in rhetoric than in action so far as the latter is concerned), has accepted divorce -- a social change that, a half-century ago, it fought hard against because Jesus himself condemns it in Scripture. In Catholic France, Onfray notes, few "still believe in transubstantiation, in Mary's virginity, the Immaculate Conception, papal infallibility and other dogma -- not even (and especially) those many Catholics who fervently attend Sunday mass."

But Christianity survives, Onfray shrewdly goes on to declare -- dominates across the West, in fact -- in habits of thought inculcated by 2,000 years of "ideological, mental, conceptual and spiritual control," expressed primarily in the idea that this world is not all there is. This Christian concept, that there is something beyond science and beyond our senses, Onfray believes, devalues the only life we have and makes us too prone to violence. Habits of mind ensure that most people will adopt the faith of their fathers -- Frenchmen will be Catholics, Turks Muslims and Cambodians Buddhists -- without much thinking about it. Even atheists, without noticing it, profess a way of thinking that is "saturated" in Christianity.

True enough. It's the residual Christianity sunk deep in Western cultural DNA that explains, as well as anything could, why a grab bag of beliefs, from the alternative Jesus of the Da Vinci Code to New Age spiritualism, is doing better than pure rationalism in attracting disillusioned ex-Christians. And it recalls G.K. Chesterton's famous dictum that when men stop believing in God, "they don't then believe in nothing, they believe in anything." Like Harris, Dawkins and Hitchens, Onfray too believes that religion is stirring anew in an irrational age.

The atheist ideologues' stated purpose is to make all but the diehard "faith-heads" think (as well as to rally the already converted). Of course, what they disdain as the arrogance of faith, its claim that everything we ever needed to know was revealed from on high 3,500 years ago (or 2,000 years ago, or 1,300 years ago), is matched by their own. They don't believe that moderates could really accept what their faiths teach. Surely it's time, Dawkins writes, for them to accept the truth they've been inching toward (as proven by their very moderation), embrace their inner atheists, and come on over to what he infuriatingly calls the "bright" side.

So they all address their books to religious moderates -- believers who do not take their scriptures literally, who do not live in hopeful expectation of the destruction of everyone and everything they hold dear. The atheists want them to choose. And they want them to choose a new Enlightenment -- each mentions this profound desire -- before it's too late, before, for instance, New York does become a heap of ashes. Under Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Hitchens writes, "a version of the Inquisition is about to lay hands on a nuclear weapon." It may have once been tolerable, Hitchens asserts, that religion retarded human progress and made a wasteland out of the lives of millions, but now faith "has run out of justifications" and into new ways of terrorizing.

And if the appeal to the moderates is primarily negative -- that only a moral idiot could seek middle ground here -- Hitchens, conscious always of the pull of culture, family and tradition, will seem the most welcoming. Wavering moderates should know that Christopher Hitchens, surely the only atheist polemicist to have held a Passover seder this week, feels their pain. "My ideal reader," Hitchens says, "is somebody who will be happy rather than sad that they now have to think for themselves." Just as Hitchens had to learn after he shed his Marxism, the once-comforting material god that failed, a doctrine much like religious faith in the supposed totality of its answer to all difficulties, and much like it too in the way it led to horrific human sacrifices: "I say this as one whose own secular faith has been shaken and discarded, not without pain. There are days when I miss my old convictions as if they were an amputated limb. But in general I feel better, and no less radical, and you will feel better too, I guarantee, once you leave hold of the doctrinaire and allow your chainless mind to do its own thinking."

To comment, email letters@macleans.ca

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1. Comment #30823 by Richard Dawkins on April 10, 2007 at 2:25 am

There is much here that others will surely want, like me, to discuss. But, if I may be allowed a strictly personal response first, two remarks especially affront me.

Dawkins, in particular, seems spiritually deaf to everything from the sense of wonder to . . .


I'd like to think that anybody who thinks I am spiritually deaf to the sense of wonder has not read Unweaving the Rainbow, Climbing Mount Improbable, The Ancestor's Tale . . . or actually any of my books!

Dawkins' anti-religious beliefs are tightly grafted to his anti-Americanism. Especially his anti-Bushism: "I just can't stand the man's style," he told the Times of London, "the way he swaggers and struts and smirks and the way he looks sly and deceitful and the way Americans can't see it.")


Please please, don't ever accuse me of anti-Americanism. It is mainly because of my love of America that I, along with all my many American friends, loathe and detest Bush and the damage he has done to that great republic. I don't remember saying "Americans can't see it" but, if I did, I obviously meant some Americans can't see it – enough Americans to have elected him President (with a little help from his brother's friends in Florida and his father's friends in the Supreme Court).

Oh, and one little point for Pedants Corner. I suspect that Bethune thinks 'coruscating' means excoriating, caustic, scathing. It doesn't. It means glittering or sparkling.

Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

2. Comment #30824 by Rtambree on April 10, 2007 at 2:35 am

You've got a tough skin, Richard, to keep getting slandered, misquoted, taken out of context, and having crucial arguments ignored. It must be frustrating.

We've noticed that so many reviews of The God Delusion and reactions to this new vocal atheism seem to ignore the very arguments that you, Harris, Dennett, Miller, etc present. It's as if reviewers haven't bothered to read the book or listen to the actual arguments. There's no dialogue.

Other Comments by Rtambree

3. Comment #30826 by Logicel on April 10, 2007 at 2:50 am

 avatarI will be honest, it is next to impossible to read with serious intent for understanding an author's viewpoint if they have gotten the wrong end of the stick so much that they have concluded that RD is both anti-American and a cold-hearted automaton impervious to beauty and wonder. I am unable to take these kinds of authors seriously.

And they very well may have some good points to make, but they do themselves an injustice by not taking the time and effort to understand the core issue which is under debate: the dangers and implausibility of faith-based beliefs which are held without significant evidence, and the corresponding thinking such faith-based belief is good simply because it is faith-based belief along with the collective consent not to criticize such non-evidential beliefs.

Other Comments by Logicel

4. Comment #30828 by Logicel on April 10, 2007 at 2:59 am

 avatar"Whatever else God may be, he is most assuredly not dead. You can take his critics' word, and the depth of their passion, for that."
_______

Again the old canard. Atheists are concerned with the BELIEF in God. They, themselves, do not believe in God, and therefore God does not exist for them. But the reality of many people believing in God(s) is the reason why atheists discuss such belief in God. It is not a question of whether or not God is dead since God does not exist to atheists, but it is a question of people who believe in God(s), existing. Hence the need for such spirited discussion as atheists regard beliefs based solely on faith in the supernatural to be dangerous.

Other Comments by Logicel

5. Comment #30829 by Logicel on April 10, 2007 at 3:03 am

 avatarThe segment of atheists who considered themselves to be Brights, will appreciate--as RD as pointed out above--Bethune's unintentional compliment by describing atheistic confrontation with theism as sparkling and glittering via his sloppy use of coruscating:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/coruscating

Other Comments by Logicel

6. Comment #30830 by Robert Maynard on April 10, 2007 at 3:20 am

 avatarDespite some of the usual mistakes, you have to admit that the article is an improvement on the standard fare of reports on the atheist 'movement'.
It certainly doesn't descend into the saddening "frenzied malevolence" most articles by religious moderates do.

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

7. Comment #30831 by Stewart on April 10, 2007 at 3:20 am

Well, I was going to write almost exactly what Prof. Dawkins wrote at the beginning of his post, but by the time I got to the end of the article I saw that he'd beaten me to it. It is always infuriating to be misunderstood; how much more so when one's actual views, expressed with exemplary clarity, have already been broadcast so widely. Surely this is a case where efficient meme replication is being intentionally thwarted.

Other Comments by Stewart

8. Comment #30832 by Bonzai on April 10, 2007 at 3:24 am

I am quite fed up with religious people who sanctimonously lecture atheists that they are "unspiritual" as if "spirituality" in some broad sense is one and the same as the primitive worship of some personal God.

If anything religion takes away the sense of genuine mystery and wonder and replaces it with false answers in the form of poorly written junk fictions. If there is a God I certainly would expect him/her/it to have better taste than to reveal him/her/itself through vulgar stories and incoherent drivels such as those one may find in the bible or the Quran. Aesthetics alone is good enough reason to reject most religions.

Many, if not most religious people prayed to their imaginary gods for worldly concerns like staying away from harm, landing their dream jobs, saving their marriage or having their cancers cured. I must be "spiritually tone deaf" for failing to detect any spiritual content in such activities.

Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor said Christ deserved to be burnt because he offered freedom. The Church provided dogmas and certainty, freedom was too heavy a burden. Though not intended as such, but it is a nice metaphore for the relationship between religion and genuine spirituality. Religion is castrated spirituality, it is a way to chain the spiritual instinct to the earthly plane where it can be managed and manipulated.

Other Comments by Bonzai

9. Comment #30833 by Feuerbach on April 10, 2007 at 3:27 am

Bethune knows nothing.

Other Comments by Feuerbach

10. Comment #30834 by Damien Trotter on April 10, 2007 at 3:32 am

 avatarExcept, perhaps, for Hitchens, who seems to be the only one who admits to having religious friends...

Proof, that Bethune has read virtually nothing by Prof. Dawkins.

DT

Other Comments by Damien Trotter

11. Comment #30835 by Slartibartfast on April 10, 2007 at 3:33 am

Honestly, I didn't get the point of this article. While reading it, I was at several points expecting Mr. Bethune to start arguing that atheists and religious moderates ought to make a concerted effort to fight against extreme religious dogmatism and that atheists should take caution not to alienate moderate believers (something I believe has a lot to be said for; for the record, I'm an atheist married to an extremely moderate Catholic :-) ).

However, no such argument was forthcoming. Instead, while Mr. Bethune himself listed all sorts of evils, past and present, wrought by religious dogmatism, at the same time he seemed somehow angered by the arguments advanced against that same dogmatism by Mr. Dawkins, Mr. Harris, Mr. Hitchens and others, or perhaps even by the fact that such arguments are made in public at all. This is evident from the fact that he resorts to ridicule and ‚tu quoque' attacks (e.g.: 'merciless schoolboy-level mockery of religion'; '[o]f course, what they disdain as the arrogance of faith [...] is matched by their own' etc.). Mr. Bethune's rhethorical(ly intended) question 'can't Harris see a single positive reason for religion's ongoing vigour?' tellingly goes unanswered by himself.

So, as I said, I don't get the point. Mr. Bethune seems to be angry at religious extremists, and he seems to be angry at 'radical atheists', but he somehow fails to make clear why exactly he's so angry at everybody. Can anyone eludicate?

Best regards
Slartibartfast

Other Comments by Slartibartfast

12. Comment #30837 by Rtambree on April 10, 2007 at 3:37 am

It's always the same responses - I'm getting bored reading them...

1. You're just a fundamentalist atheist
2. Look at all the good that Christians have done
3. Look at all the bad that atheists have done
4. People need religion - it's innate
5. Religion gives us our moral nature
6. Atheism has no sense of wonder or awe
7. The God you mock isn't one I recognise
8. You can't judge religious people by the few extremists out there
9. Most people believe in a God
10. You can't disprove God

Other Comments by Rtambree

13. Comment #30839 by denoir on April 10, 2007 at 3:38 am

 avatar
Oxford scientist Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion, which combines merciless schoolboy-level mockery of religion with the lessons of evolutionary biology, has been a fixture on bestseller lists since the fall.


A recurring criticism leveled against Dawkins is that his arguments against religion are trivial and banal.

Yes they are, but that's because the arguments from the theists are so stupefyingly banal that they really do not require a clever rebuttal. Religion is banal no matter how much you try to obscure it with 'theology' and quasi-deep interpretations.

If you want a more intelligent debate, look at any active scientific field of research.

It is in fact very sad that scientists like Dawkins have to waste time on vulgar trivialities such as religion. Molecular biology is developing at an exponential pace - good popular science writers such as Dawkins are desperately needed to present the new discoveries to the general public. Instead they are stuck "debating" with functional morons about superstition. While I do realize the social and political necessity, it is still a horrible waste of intellect.

Other Comments by denoir

14. Comment #30840 by Logicel on April 10, 2007 at 3:39 am

 avatar"...to be the only one who admits to having religious friends, the atheists' own dirty little secret..."
_______

Maybe because it is obvious that atheists would have many friends/acquaintances, colleagues, and family members who believe in religion, that atheists don't scream that obvious fact from the rooftops?

Other Comments by Logicel

15. Comment #30842 by Logicel on April 10, 2007 at 3:54 am

 avatar"That contempt, along with the stridency and a totalitarian disdain for everything to do with religion, is rooted in fear and failure."
______

More proof that either Bethune did not read with intent to understand or he did not read the books he is discussing: Harris and Dawkins have both discussed the merit of benign religions. The contempt is not for the believer, but for the beliefs. Lastly, the recognition of failure and fear is human, and atheists handle that fact admirably well.

Other Comments by Logicel

16. Comment #30845 by Logicel on April 10, 2007 at 3:59 am

 avatar"Aren't the ungodly in charge now, the churches empty on Sunday, religious leaders and religious viewpoints shouted out of the political arena? Are not contraception, abortion and, very soon, homosexual marriage the norm across the Western world? Who's winning this war anyway?"
______

The radical religious right in the most military powerful country in the world, America, is not a figment of the atheistic imagination. This radical religious group is focused on eroding the American constitution to fit their faith-based agenda. Supporters of democratic freedoms and secularism cannot ever think the battle has been won forever--we need always to be vigilant.

Other Comments by Logicel

17. Comment #30846 by Rtambree on April 10, 2007 at 4:01 am

>More proof that either Bethune did not read with intent to understand

If these religious-apologists do read Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, etc, then it's an interesting psychological phenomenon that their brains just edit out the pre-empted arguments - a vivid example of confirmation bias. It's analogous to the famous gorilla among the basketballers video, where most people don't see what should be obvious.

There's some intangible filter that doesn't even let the argument be recognised or considered, let alone be responded to.

Other Comments by Rtambree

18. Comment #30847 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 4:09 am

 avatarSo, as I said, I don't get the point. Mr. Bethune seems to be angry at religious extremists, and he seems to be angry at 'radical atheists', but he somehow fails to make clear why exactly he's so angry at everybody. Can anyone eludicate?

Not really. I find myself cheering along and saying YEAH a couple of times during the article. The author reels off many of the major crimes of religion (and a number I was completely ignorant of!!), and then does a wierd little pirouette and is suddenly annoyed with the people pointing this stuff out??!! Huh?

The stuff about RD was ill informed, but otherwise s/he did a great job of reinforcing my conviction that religion IS poison. I mean that business with the Mohel eeeagggh, shudder, gahhhhh. Some doddering cleric sucking, sucking, the severed foreskin off a child's penis really doesn't need the added detail of herpes (JESSSSUS) to make me queasy. That freaked me right out:-(

I don't think we are loosing, but religion is trying to break back out of the box, we in the west agreed to put it in several hundred years ago, and that will not wash. Hence the significant annoyance on "our side".

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19. Comment #30848 by Cregaune on April 10, 2007 at 4:10 am

 avatar
Oh, and one little point for Pedants Corner. I suspect that Bethune thinks 'coruscating' means excoriating, caustic, scathing. It doesn't. It means glittering or sparkling.


Hmmm......in both cases I'd find myself faced with the necessity of heading to Dictionary Corner. Is that a sad reflection on my limited vocabulary or a sadder reflection on the intellectual pretensions of those who would step outside the safety of the vernacular?

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20. Comment #30849 by Logicel on April 10, 2007 at 4:15 am

 avatarI have now read this artcle once through, and will give it a second read. But my first reaction is that it is a very odd article!

While describing atheistic concerns fairly well with comparatively little sniping, Bethune seems to be saying that moderates are the main focus of atheists, and atheists with their insistence that there is nothing of value in religion, will alienate them sufficiently and therefore fail in their endeavor of encouraging the religious moderates to let go of non-evidential faith in the supernatural.

Bethune seems very sympathetic to that charmer, Hitchens. I do not know if he is disappointed in atheists because he wants them to succeed, and thinks that this new vocalism will prevent their success, or he regards the quest for the discarding of faith-based beliefs to be wrong.

Perhaps Bethune will do a follow up article.

Other Comments by Logicel

21. Comment #30850 by Slartibartfast on April 10, 2007 at 4:18 am

No, Cregaune, it is an even sadder reflection on the fact that you are an excoriatingly, or even (dare I say it?) coruscatingly ignorant person. :-)

Best regards
S.

Other Comments by Slartibartfast

22. Comment #30851 by moudiwort on April 10, 2007 at 4:23 am

 avatarHm, I think I have to join Robert Maynard on this one, apart from and despite of those weird ad hominem attacks at Richard Dawkins.
It's better than the previous articles by Klinghoff, Dionne etc.

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23. Comment #30853 by steve_kap on April 10, 2007 at 4:37 am

It always strikes me how long these rants tend to be. They all tend to start out with 2 paragraphs of "look how fare we've come down this wrong road", and then many many paragraphs of "see how indignant I am". Throw in a bunch of arguing against a misunderstanding (being kind) of their opponents position, and it all adds up to a real bore.

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24. Comment #30855 by BenK on April 10, 2007 at 4:47 am

I thought this article was good. It wasn't the usual argument against what Dawkins, Harris, etc are doing, it was just another comment.

As we get more and more of these sort of articles, can we expect some 'evolution' of them in that new writers will have read older writers works and developed thought about the ideas a bit more? To say something different and new, the new article has to either be more absurd or more reasonable. Religion sets the absurdity so high that articles are bound to get more reasonable over time as the ideas sink in.

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25. Comment #30857 by chrisrkline on April 10, 2007 at 5:13 am

Dawkins, in particular, seems spiritually deaf to everything from the sense of wonder to the pull of family and community.

This one struck me too. It is not so much that the author cannot have read anything by Prof. Dawkins, but that he is assuming that religious people have a particularly strong sense of wonder and pull of family and community.

I think he is confusing the smile and claims of joy that so many Christians have learned to affect on Sunday mornings with true "spirituality".

There are many Christians who do have a sense of wonder about the world and feel the pull of family and community, but they feel them despite the teachings of religion, not because of them. Every person can feel wonder at a new born baby, but anyone who believes this feeling is enhanced by first reading parts of the Bible or Koran is deluding themselves.

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26. Comment #30858 by Ian Jackson on April 10, 2007 at 5:14 am

Richard, it must be galling to see your words misquoted or quoted out of context, and your arguments wilfully misrepresented. Perhaps one small consolation is that Bethune and his ilk are almost paying you a complement, because if they reflected what you are saying accurately, they would substantially weaken their own, already flimsy arguments.

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27. Comment #30860 by egmutza on April 10, 2007 at 5:34 am

 avatarWeird that the author seems to think Hitchens is the only one who "gets" how to talk to moderates. While I look forward to reading Hitchens' book, I will be very surprised if it will be one I recommend to moderates.

I thought The God Delusion was pretty tame until I passed it along to a few moderate believers (they couldn't make it past chapter 2!). Does anyone else think Hitchens possibly has it in him to make a delicate argument to religious moderates?

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28. Comment #30862 by RascoHeldall on April 10, 2007 at 5:38 am

Bonzai wrote: "If there is a God I certainly would expect him/her/it to have better taste than to reveal him/her/itself through vulgar stories and incoherent drivels such as those one may find in the bible or the Quran."

Very well said, that man!

Other Comments by RascoHeldall

29. Comment #30863 by mandelstam on April 10, 2007 at 5:40 am

Apart from the standard misrepresentations of Prof Dawkins I welcome the fact such articles are written. They are at least temperate & present arguments that can be answered. Also it reminds me that while it probably is true that we can not really expect religion to die (or even, god forbid, be killed)in the foreseeable future, we can expect "faith" to be examined critically, even by some of the faithful. And much, much more importantly we can begin (or maintain) the essential process of establishing that it is not acceptable to conduct social policy, establish legislation or otherwise exercise power over others on the justification that it is required by one's religion, no matter how moderate. I think that even Bethune implicitly accepts that.

Other Comments by mandelstam

30. Comment #30864 by Luthien on April 10, 2007 at 5:48 am

 avatarHey, I hear they are making Dawkins bashing an olympic sport for the 2012 Olympics...

With Alastair McGrath representing us here in Northern Ireland, we are in with a good chance for a 2nd gold medal (in addition to the sharp shooting one we always win).

Other Comments by Luthien

31. Comment #30868 by MiloC on April 10, 2007 at 6:33 am

I have read every one of Richard's books and every criticism I have read of his work is not even clsoe to being accurate. There should be a rule; you have to read the book(s) before you can say anything about them.

Other Comments by MiloC

32. Comment #30870 by Fishpeddler on April 10, 2007 at 7:33 am

 avatarComment #30860 by egmutza
I thought The God Delusion was pretty tame until I passed it along to a few moderate believers (they couldn't make it past chapter 2!). Does anyone else think Hitchens possibly has it in him to make a delicate argument to religious moderates?

I doubt it. I don't think anyone is capable of making the argument delicate enough that it won't be offensive. There is little chance that religious moderates, who probably consider themselves to be part of the solution, will ever take kindly to being told they are still part of the problem.

It continues to amaze me how many commentators portray RD as acerbic, disrespectful, excessively confrontational, etc. I consider myself to be extremely thin-skinned and conflict averse. I can hardly even stand to watch most reality tv shows because -- besides the fact that I don't want to waste my life -- they are explicitly designed to create conflict between people, and then let millions watch it play out.

So when I read TGD this past January, I went into it with some trepidation. Based on some of the things I'd read in the press, I was expecting to be embarrassed by RD's lack of decorum, his arrogance, his cruel attacks on believers. Much to my surprise, the book didn't strike me that way in the least. I thought it was clearly and rationally argued, and on the occasions where he was obviously making an attack, RD didn't seem too over-the-top and went to great lengths to explain his justifications.

Did I miraculously become thick-skinned and insensitive just during my reading of his book, or are religious readers simply too ready to take offense because they are so unused to criticism of any kind? I suspect the latter.

Other Comments by Fishpeddler

33. Comment #30876 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 7:59 am

 avatarDid I miraculously become thick-skinned and insensitive just during my reading of his book

Not in the least. I've seen Richard in a lot of settings, and he invariable comes across as charming and interested. The one exception is perhaps the interview with Ted Haggard, and he can certainly be forgiven for loosing the rag on that occasion.

For creative and entertaining use of the word "Fuck", while in full concilitary mode, he gets full marks for this clip : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2xGIwQfik

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34. Comment #30877 by Yorker on April 10, 2007 at 8:03 am

 avatarMultiple comments by Logicel

What is this Logicel, a takeover bid? :)

These pseudo-intellectual religite tonks make me puke with their crap about Dawkins' lack of "deep theological knowledge".

Bethune and his ilk need to understand the following:

"Religion is like dog shit on your shoe, no need to examine it deeply to realise what it is, just wipe it off with disgust and walk on!"

A quotation by Yorker!

Other Comments by Yorker

35. Comment #30878 by mocular on April 10, 2007 at 8:13 am

"..merciless schoolboy-level mockery of religion."

I must confess that this is the hardest point to argue when discussing TGD with those notorious moderates who freely admit that the extreme writings in the Old & New Testaments are not literally true. The fact that they "know" that these easily mocked passages are not literally true makes it easy for them to dismiss the actual point of the mockery - that any belief in a religion founded on such inane ideas is absurd.

They are still somehow able to embrace a religion that is populated, even controlled, by people who do believe in the literal interpretation of such nonsense. I find this infuriating in the extreme.

If Hitchens' approach causes the moderates to reconsider their positions and not quickly dismiss his arguments as "schoolboy-level mockery of religion", that's a real benefit. However, based on my own experience with moderates, I won't hold my breath.

mocular

Other Comments by mocular

36. Comment #30879 by Yorker on April 10, 2007 at 8:15 am

 avatar33. Comment #30876 by briancoughlanworldcitizen

"I've seen Richard in a lot of settings, and he invariable comes across as charming and interested. The one exception is perhaps the interview with Ted Haggard, and he can certainly be forgiven for loosing the rag on that occasion."

I don't think he did "lose the rag" on that occasion, my opinion is that Richard's the kind of guy that's not sure how to handle confrontational situations with "Haggardites". While watching that, I was dying to leap in and tackle Haggard myself, I would have had him foaming at the mouth and leaping up and down like a child throwing a supermarket tantrum, I would've done my best to make him physically assault me...oh how I would have enjoyed that!

Other Comments by Yorker

37. Comment #30880 by EntropyGuardian on April 10, 2007 at 8:18 am

Is this debate online on google video or something?

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38. Comment #30881 by Yorker on April 10, 2007 at 8:21 am

 avatarThinking of confrontation made me think of Hitchens, I don't always agree with him but he does know how to be confrontational. He intimidates without actually being violent, but he's clearly aware that violence is, and always will be, the ultimate sanction.

Other Comments by Yorker

39. Comment #30883 by Yorker on April 10, 2007 at 8:23 am

 avatar37. Comment #30880 by EntropyGuardian

If you're referring to the Haggard thing, it's part of that "Root of All Evil?" TV series that Richard made, it's on YouTube I'm sure.

Other Comments by Yorker

40. Comment #30884 by Logicel on April 10, 2007 at 8:24 am

 avatarYorker, I am Logicel after all--in part I chose the id Logicel to stimulate an image of an indefatigable logic machine running on long-lasting batteries (the suffix borrowed from Duracel batteries).

Other Comments by Logicel

41. Comment #30887 by Yorker on April 10, 2007 at 8:34 am

 avatar33. Comment #30876 by briancoughlanworldcitizen

I think Richard used this quip as a kind of "second-hand" way to get back at Tyson who had confrontationally rebuked him. Tyson is liked by many but not much by me, he thinks too much of himself and sees himself as a Carl Sagan replacement which he'll never be. He's due for a slight intellectual arse-kicking in my opinion.

Other Comments by Yorker

42. Comment #30888 by Yorker on April 10, 2007 at 8:39 am

 avatar40. Comment #30884 by Logicel

Ah, so you see yourself as "Logic cell", I had deciphered it as "Logic el", like another namey kind of way to say "logical". I wonder how much current can be drawn from you before your voltage sags at the knees?

Other Comments by Yorker

43. Comment #30890 by PeterK on April 10, 2007 at 8:46 am

...I would have had him foaming at the mouth and leaping up and down like a child throwing a supermarket tantrum...

LOL!

Other Comments by PeterK

44. Comment #30891 by Logicel on April 10, 2007 at 8:47 am

 avatarYorker, I did describe my batteries as L0NGLASTING. I will leave the rest up to your imagination.

Other Comments by Logicel

45. Comment #30892 by Yorker on April 10, 2007 at 8:47 am

 avatar30. Comment #30864 by Luthien

"With Alastair McGrath representing us here in Northern Ireland, we are in with a good chance for a 2nd gold medal (in addition to the sharp shooting one we always win)."

Well, it stands to reason that the Irish would win the sharpshooting...

Sorry Luthien - bad taste I know, but hard to resist you must admit.

Other Comments by Yorker

46. Comment #30893 by Yorker on April 10, 2007 at 8:58 am

 avatarBeing a biblical ignoramus, would someone please enlighten me about the stupid practice of cutting off a piece of one's cock for God, is it a command by Jesus or some other guy?

My Jewish friends never told me the mohel (pronounced "moil") actually performed fellatio!

Other Comments by Yorker

47. Comment #30894 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 9:00 am

 avatarI think Richard used this quip as a kind of "second-hand" way to get back at Tyson who had confrontationally rebuked him.

Oh yeah ... it was subtle. You could take it as accepting the rebuke, or Richard basically telling Tyson to Fuck off. Ah the joys of multi layered language, and those that wield it well:-)

That said, I have to say I like Tyson. He's not sufficently reflective to a be a "Sagan Clone", too bubbly and enthusiastic for my cynical tastes, but he's pretty good nonetheless.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

48. Comment #30895 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 9:02 am

 avatarMy Jewish friends never told me the mohel (pronunced "moil") actually performed fellatio!

OH GOD!! I'd forgotten all about that!!! Geagggh ....

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

49. Comment #30896 by WilliamP on April 10, 2007 at 9:02 am

Yorker on Haggard:
I would've done my best to make him physically assault me...oh how I would have enjoyed that!

I'm sure that he would have enjoyed it too.

Other Comments by WilliamP

50. Comment #30898 by cassdenata on April 10, 2007 at 9:06 am

I have never in my life had the same feelings of wonder and awe as I got when I read the Selfish gene...or the description of bats in the Blind Watchmaker...or hearing Professor Dawkins speech on the queerness of science at TED talks.

For a guy who doesn't appreciate or understand wonder/awe, he sure is good at dishing it out :)

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