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Saturday, April 14, 2007 | Reason : Backlash | print version Print | Comments

Document Thanks for the Facts. Now Sell Them.

by Matthew C. Nisbet and Chris Mooney

Read PZ Myers' response to this article here

Reposted from:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/13/AR2007041302064_pf.html

If the defenders of evolution wanted to give their creationist adversaries a boost, it's hard to see how they could do better than Richard Dawkins, the famed Oxford scientist who had a bestseller with "The God Delusion." Dawkins, who rose to fame with his lucid expositions of evolution in such books as "The Selfish Gene," has never gone easy on religion. But recently he has ramped up his atheist message, further mixing his defense of evolution with his attack on belief.

Leave aside for a moment the validity of Dawkins's arguments against religion. The fact remains: The public cannot be expected to differentiate between his advocacy of evolution and his atheism. More than 80 percent of Americans believe in God, after all, and many fear that teaching evolution in our schools could undermine the belief system they consider the foundation of morality. Dawkins not only reinforces and validates such fears -- baseless though they may be -- but lends them an exclamation point.

We agree with Dawkins on evolution and admire his books, so we don't enjoy singling him out. But he stands as a particularly stark example of scientists' failure to explain hot-button issues, such as global warming and evolution, to a wary public.

Scientists excel at research; creating knowledge is their forte. But presenting this knowledge to the public is something else altogether. It's here that scientists and their allies are stumbling in our information-overloaded society -- even as scientific information itself is being yanked to center stage in high-profile debates.

Scientists have traditionally communicated with the rest of us by inundating the public with facts; but data dumps often don't work. People generally make up their minds by studying more subtle, less rational factors. In 2000 Americans didn't pore over explanations of President Bush's policies; they asked whether he was the kind of guy they wanted to have a beer with.

So in today's America, like it or not, those seeking a broader public acceptance of science must rethink their strategies for conveying knowledge. Especially on divisive issues, scientists should package their research to resonate with specific segments of the public. Data dumping -- about, say, the technical details of embryology -- is dull and off-putting to most people. And the Dawkins-inspired "science vs. religion" way of viewing things alienates those with strong religious convictions. Do scientists really have to portray their knowledge as a threat to the public's beliefs? Can't science and religion just get along? A "science and religion coexistence" message conveyed by church leaders or by scientists who have reconciled the two in their own lives might convince even many devout Christians that evolution is no real threat to faith.

We made a similar argument in a recent commentary article published by the journal Science. While many agreed with our perspective, some took a more critical tone. Indeed, those most piqued by our argument tended (like Dawkins) to be strong defenders of evolution who are also critical of religious belief.

Paul Zachary "PZ" Myers, a biology professor at the University of Minnesota at Morris, wrote on his blog, Pharyngula, that if he took our advice, "I'd end up giving fluff talks that play up economic advantages and how evolution contributes to medicine . . . and I'd never talk about mechanisms and evidence again. That sounds like a formula for disaster to me -- it turns scientists into guys with suits who have opinions, and puts us in competition with lawyers and bureaucrats in the media." Myers also accused us of appeasing religion.

Yet he misses the point. There will always be a small audience of science enthusiasts who have a deep interest in the "mechanisms and evidence" of evolution, just as there will always be an audience for criticism of religion. But these messages are unlikely to reach a wider public, and even if they do they will probably be ignored or, in the case of atheistic attacks on religion, backfire.

We're not saying that scientists and their allies should "spin" information; doing that would only harm their credibility. But discussing issues in new ways and with new messengers can be accomplished without distorting the underlying science. Good communication is by its very nature informative rather than misleading. Making complicated issues personally meaningful will activate public support much more effectively than blinding people with science.

Global warming is another issue on which scientists continually fail to reach key segments of the public. The real inconvenient truth here is that scientists aren't doing a good job of packaging what they know. No matter how solid the science gets, there remain "two Americas" on the subject: A strong majority of Republicans discount the science and the issue's urgency, while an overwhelming number of Democrats believe the opposite. Once again, the facts aren't driving opinions here. Instead, selective interpretations -- delivered via fragmented media and resonating with the public's partisan prejudices -- are winning out.

Thus, despite ever-increasing scientific consensus, prominent GOP leaders such as Sen. James M. Inhofe of Oklahoma still use conservative media outlets to describe climate science as too "uncertain" to justify action. If scientists and their defenders seek to answer such charges by explaining how much we know, they become enmeshed in the technical details (for instance, does climate change really contribute to more intense hurricanes?). And this only creates new opportunities for Inhofe and his flat-earth friends to sow doubt.

So once again, scientists and their allies would be better off shifting their emphasis, as well as the messenger. For example, church leaders can speak to the evangelical community about the necessity of environmental stewardship (a message that's already being delivered from some pulpits), even as business leaders can speak to fiscally oriented conservatives about the economic opportunities there for the plucking if Congress passes a system for trading carbon dioxide emission credits.

In this regard, one success story has come in the debate over human embryonic stem cells, a leading example of how scientists can effectively engage the public on controversial findings. In the weeks following Bush's 2001 compromise decision on stem cell research funding, more than 60 percent of the public supported the president's policy. But six years later, public opinion has shifted. In news coverage and campaigns, funding advocates have emphasized not the technical details of the research but the promise of new therapies and the resultant potential for economic growth. This strategy has helped spur legislation that would overturn the president's policy; the latest bill passed in the Senate last week (though not by enough votes to overturn an expected veto).

Here again, a delicate balance is required. Any recasting of an issue needs to remain true to the underlying science. As effective as the "hope for cures" message has been, some advocates have gone too far in their claims about potential advances.

Thankfully, scientists seem increasingly aware of the need to convey their knowledge better. There is even a bill in Congress that would allocate funding to the National Science Foundation to train scientists to become better communicators. That's a start, but scientists must recognize that on hot-button issues -- even scientific ones -- knowledge alone is rarely enough to win political arguments, change government policies or influence public opinion. Simply put, the media, policymakers and members of the public consume scientific information in a vastly different way than the scientists who generate it. If scientists don't learn how to cope in this often bewildering environment, they will be ceding their ability to contribute to the future of our nation.

nisbetmc@gmail.com moonecc@gmail.com

Matthew C. Nisbet is a professor in the school of communication at American University.

Chris Mooney is Washington correspondent for Seed magazine and the author of "The Republican War"


Read PZ Myers' response to this article here

Comments 1 - 39 of 39 |

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1. Comment #31891 by MIND_REBEL on April 14, 2007 at 9:51 pm

 avatarGot Memes?

This idiot knows nothing about science or evolution.

Other Comments by MIND_REBEL

2. Comment #31897 by LeeC on April 14, 2007 at 10:16 pm

 avatar
More than 80 percent of Americans believe in God, after all, and many fear that teaching evolution in our schools could undermine the belief system they consider the foundation of morality.


If the belief is right, then if should not make any difference if evolution is taught.

If the belief is wrong, and evolution helps to show this, then it must be taught. Besides, evolution on it's own does not mean god does not exist. Many Christians believe in both.

Just the idiots who believe 100% in the bible are worried about evolution... I could go on.

Lee

Other Comments by LeeC

3. Comment #31898 by NakedCelt on April 14, 2007 at 10:35 pm

Sounds reasonable at first blush. I'd even agree... if it weren't for the fact that America is teetering on the edge of full-blown Christofascism. Global warming and evolution teaching are important issues, and it's not stupid to suggest that theists and brights bury their deeper differences temporarily until those issues are sorted out. But in fact religion itself is fast becoming an urgent sociopolitical problem. Scientists, being trained in critical thinking, have a responsibility not as scientists but as citizens to combat this problem as best they can.

Other Comments by NakedCelt

4. Comment #31899 by Janus on April 14, 2007 at 10:36 pm

 avatarThis article is a fine example of anti-science mentality, albeit in a more subtle form than the crass kind we see in creationists. Instead of dismissing science entirely, this fellow accepts the importance of scientific facts in policy-making and the like, but completely ignores the deeper goal of science. Science isn't just about accumulating a bunch of useful facts about the universe, it's about rational inquiry, it's about intellectual honesty, it's about curiosity, it's about understanding and knowledge and the quest for truth.

People like Prof. Nisbet want us to accept the end result of science, they want everyone to acknowledge the bunch of useful facts we end up with, but they don't give a crap about how we discovered those facts, they don't care about the web of understanding that ties all of these useful facts together, they don't care about rationality and skepticism and intellectual honesty. Individuals who agree with the article's message would be entirely satisfied if every American just nodded his head when asked if he believes in evolution and global warming. But, unless you're a sheep, it's not enough to accept the facts, you also have to understand why you should accept the facts. WHY is evolution true? WHY is global warming a reality? WHY is it rational to believe in the conclusions of science? WHY, if you're interested in the truth, is it a good idea to be a skeptic instead of a faith-head? Scientists like Richard Dawkins and P.Z. Myers want people to be able to answer questions like these, and short-term thinkers like Nisbet are standing in their way.

And you know what, even if we agreed with Prof. Nisbet that it's perfectly OK to leave millions of people in their current delusional, sheep-like, intellectually-stunted state, I don't think his tactic of only aiming at making the facts accepted would work. When you're trying to get rid of an ant infestation, what's the smart strategy? Just standing outside the nest and stomping on the ants as they come out? Or leaving poison nearby so as to kill the ant queen, the source of the infestation?

The truth is that there IS a conflict between the scientific method and religion, between rationality and faith. Creationists don't deny evolution because scientists have presented evolution as being anti-God (quite the contrary). Creationists deny evolution because they've been indoctrinated since birth to place their religious faith ahead of the facts, to believe in a litteral interpretation of Genesis no matter what the evil secular liberals say, and to never, ever question what mommy, daddy, and the local pastor have taught them. Abrahamic religion is the cause of creationism, and of a good deal of the anti-GW movement. Does anyone seriously believe that if the Bible and Christian tradition said absolutely nothing about the origin of the universe and of the human species, that 50% of Americans would still be creationists?

So let's not waste any more time stomping on the ants. Just repeating the facts again and again, no matter how attractively they're worded, no matter how seductively they're presented, can only have temporary benefits (if any). It's time to go for the ant queen; it's time to erradicate faith itself.

Other Comments by Janus

5. Comment #31903 by adamhaar on April 14, 2007 at 10:57 pm

It seems to me that the authors of the article would prefer scientists to conceal detail and have the public accept their findings on 'faith'.
Along the same lines as Janus' comment #31899, it's not enough to know (believe) a fact; we need understanding, evidence and reasoning. If those things are concealed then scientists become priests and we the public merely followers (reminds me a little of Asmiov's Foundation).

Other Comments by adamhaar

6. Comment #31904 by M31 on April 14, 2007 at 10:58 pm

 avatarI think this article really misses a fundamental point that people like Dawkins have made crystal clear: that darwinian evolution IS fundamentally in conflict with any substantial religion. The creationists are right to think that evolution leads to atheism - it does!

They give no example of what would be a good or effective way to sell evolution without dealing with one of its fundamental implications: that every organized religion is *wrong*. Frankly, I don't think it's possible - you can't shy away from the implications of the fact that we are actually descended from bacteria and that there was no guiding hand in the process. Churches often recognize this and that's why they present such a strong opposition to evolution. You have to deal with this directly, you can't hide the issue or point to the handful of scientists who have managed to compartmentalize their thoughts.

Ultimately, I think it can only be the facts that sell evolution. I don't know of anyone who has done a better job of explaining the facts and their implications in an absolutely clear way than Richard Dawkins.

Other Comments by M31

7. Comment #31914 by NJS on April 15, 2007 at 12:11 am

Among all the things about theism I don't "get" is this one about how theists CAN accept evolution and still have faith.

For me an appreciation of how life and latterly humans evolved over billions of years is the best argument we have that Gods are man made. In fact I'd say trying to reconcile Abrahamic theism with the "true" history of our planet and species fails more badly than the creationists 6000 years nonsense. At least in the latter context their God "makes sense".

Other Comments by NJS

8. Comment #31917 by Feuerbach on April 15, 2007 at 12:25 am

I don't know how to say this politely, so I won't.

Matthew C. Nisbet and Chris Mooney are a pair of God-bothering, clueless fucking muppets.

Other Comments by Feuerbach

9. Comment #31918 by GodlessHeathen on April 15, 2007 at 12:26 am

 avatarI was going to say that the theory of evolution isn't a threat to faith, no matter how it is presented, just some folks have manufactured this conflict...
Then I realized I was being stupid.
I know several folks who call themselves "Young Earth creationists". I'm aware of gobs of folks that subscribe to "Intelligent Design Science". They've adopted this odd science-like cloak for their beliefs, and in doing so have made real science an immediate threat to them.
Since they've chosen to do that, then they will just have to live with the rest of the scientific method, including the necessarily brutal critique of their "theories". If "ID" ignores evidence (and it does) or lacks evidence for part of the theory (it does) then the theory is bunk!

Sorry that happened to be part of your belief system, dears, but you plonked it on the table for scrutiny.

Other Comments by GodlessHeathen

10. Comment #31922 by Macho Nachos on April 15, 2007 at 12:32 am

 avatarIn addition to some of the other criticisms posted above (and I haven't read PZ's reply yet), I thought there was a glaring problem.

How do you convey evolution in a dumbed-down way and still do it justice? Sure, the basic theory is simple, like the basic theory of global warming. That's easy enough to convey. It's also easy for naysayers to pick holes in and misrepresent, which is exactly what happens. It's easy to say we need to rethink our approach and get these concepts across, but if people aren't willing to ante some time and thought to the table, we aren't going to get through to them.

A majority of the population have no interest in learning the theory of evolution in its forms, applications and complexity. Hence, they don't understand just how powerful an explanatory tool it is.

High-quality documentaries are awe-inspiringly beautiful, informative and well made - the Planet Earth series, for example - and yet they don't rate as well as Big Brother. Lots of people don't want to think.

Telling people what to think about certain issues, like global warming, doesn't do science justice. What it may achieve is affirmative action from those people. The danger is that simply believing what an 'authority' tells you is completely against what science aims for, rational, skeptical, objective enquiry. Bah.

Other Comments by Macho Nachos

11. Comment #31925 by Johan on April 15, 2007 at 12:52 am

It's funny how the major point of this article "there is nothing wrong with science but needs to be carefully taught to (in some ways even distorted, I guess) for many Americans to accept it" rather comes across as saying " there is something seriously wrong with more than half the American population, being a deluded bunch that can't accept facts.
Maybe that is not what the authors intended to convey but to my European mind, that's how it reads.

By the way, has anyone seen the film "Jesus Camp" yet? It opens next week in France, where I currently live.

Best,
Johan

Other Comments by Johan

12. Comment #31935 by BMMcArdle on April 15, 2007 at 1:43 am

RD quoted a former editor of New Scientist magazine as saying "Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fuck off".

Other Comments by BMMcArdle

13. Comment #31936 by hasty toweling on April 15, 2007 at 1:45 am

Well put NJS (comment 7). This article displays one of the most bizzare assertions made by religious liberals: that evolution and religion are not in conflict. People like Francis Collins are particularly guilty.

The claim is made that evolution and christianity are perfectly reconcilable, and this is the end it. A possible historical timeline is conspicuously absent. Let's try to imagine what one would look like.

Life begins when a molecule duplicates itself. As the eons pass, replication, mutation and selection lead to life as it existed a few thousand years ago. Suddenly, one of these life forms sins, and needs to be saved from the pits of hell. All of this life forms' descendants need to be saved also. Yet, no one is there to save them yet, so they all go to hell.

Thousands of years pass.

The Creator of the universe incarnates himself in the form of one of these beings and has himself tortured and murdered in order to absorb the punishment that the sinful beings really deserve. Three days later, he rises from the grave.

Aleluia.

All beings who believe this story go to heaven, the rest go to hell.


That's about the best I got. Anybody got a better one?

Damn, this is sad.

Other Comments by hasty toweling

14. Comment #31938 by mfwglatz on April 15, 2007 at 1:54 am

I have to admit, that it doesn´t serve the cause of convincing people when you intimidate them. Sometimes a neutral display of facts and arguments would be better. In the discussions I have with friends and colleagues I now tend to stress the need to separate church and state. Secularism and education automatically lead to atheism in my eyes.

Other Comments by mfwglatz

15. Comment #31948 by stephend on April 15, 2007 at 3:18 am

 avatarSeems that this guy wants fast food science. I wonder if he gives his kids McDonalds every night because that is what they like and ask for.

Perhaps science could be delivered as a reality TV show, with the audience voting off the theory they like the least.

What a patronising article. I think if people are treated as having some intellect, and the bar is set high, then in general people will rise to that.

Other Comments by stephend

16. Comment #31952 by Biblebeltheretic on April 15, 2007 at 3:35 am

"We agree with Dawkins on evolution and admire his books, so we don't enjoy singling him out. But he stands as a particularly stark example of scientists' failure to explain hot-button issues, such as global warming and evolution, to a wary public."

This is absurd!! In "The Blind Watchmaker" Prof Dawkins did a beautiful job of explaining evolution in a way anyone could understand. Although I have always been an atheist, I never really understood the concept until I read it.

Carl Sagan was extremely popular with the public because of his crystal clear presentations.

The problem is that most Americans don't like to do their own thinking. It's scary to them. They would rather let someone else do it for them and they will listen to the one who makes them feel warm and fuzzy. Evangelical preachers know this and exploit it. You will never reach these people with reason.

The answer is in educating the young so they understand they don't need an afterlife in glory land to be comfortable in this one.

Other Comments by Biblebeltheretic

17. Comment #31955 by Corylus on April 15, 2007 at 3:36 am

 avatarHmm, two possible criticisms of this article spring to mind. Ones that maybe not everyone here will with agree with, but I'll put them forward anyway.

Anti-American?
I agree, Johan, I find myself wondering what the writers of this article really think about the vast majority of the American public. For example:
The fact remains: The public cannot be expected to differentiate between his advocacy of evolution and his atheism.

In other words the American public are inherently stupid….
Scientists have traditionally communicated with the rest of us by inundating the public with facts; but data dumps often don't work. People generally make up their minds by studying more subtle, less rational factors.

Completely irrational and incapable of weighing up and assessing sometimes conflicting evidence…
In 2000 Americans didn't pore over explanations of President Bush's policies; they asked whether he was the kind of guy they wanted to have a beer with.

Parochial….
…even as business leaders can speak to fiscally oriented conservatives about the economic opportunities there for the plucking if Congress passes a system for trading carbon dioxide emission credits.

Only interested in policies because they increase their income rather than because they actually help people, in other words…. completely venal.

This article seems for fall for every mistaken, pernicious, invidious stereotype about Americans going, and was yet apparently written by Americans. If a European had written this there would be screams from the rooftops.

Elitist?
The more responses of this type in the, supposedly, left-wing media I see the more darkly suspicious I become. (I am thinking mainly here in relation to the recent Guardian articles against Dawkins: the average Guardian reader wouldn't know proper left-wing if it bit them on the rear end.)

There appears to be continued criticism for Dawkins et al, not in terms the factual validity of their position, but instead, criticism of the people they address and the manner in which they address them.

There is a sly sotto voce aside to people like Dawkins, "Yes, old chap, we know you're right, but don't tell the masses: they will only get upset and misunderstand". When these people are ignored; as they should be; accusations of 'populism' and 'dumbing-down' abound.

I am beginning to suspect that a great deal of this type of criticism has little to do with religion and a lot to do with intellectual snobbery. When people attempt to educate others outside of a school or college environment they assume that education of the general public is worthwhile, that people without academic or journalistic jobs are not inherently stupid.

It may actually be that some people with menial jobs are just as smart as some members of the middle-class intelligensia. Also, (and much more terrifyingly!) it may be some members of the middle-class intelligensia may be just as dumb as those with menial jobs. No wonder Dawkins and PZ attract such hostility when they consider such possibilities as these.

Now, I do not want to come across as a simplistic, idealistic pinko here. Of course, people progress in life because of being clever and, of course some people are just smarter than others. What I do say that there are a lot of clever people in the world who have not progressed not because of lack of intelligence, but because of lack of opportunity and lack of access to education.

I think it is amazing when people like Dawkins and PZ make an effort to teach things. I firmly believe that education reaps rewards and that humans as a group can learn and progress, it is one of the few things about which I am optimistic and I am not about to give up that optimism.

Sorry for the long post people … got carried away, but I caught the whiff of patronising paternalism and, as always, it stunk!

Other Comments by Corylus

18. Comment #31968 by epeeist on April 15, 2007 at 4:32 am

 avatarThey are right in one respect - science does need to be taught and communicated well, look at the Carolyn G. Guertin article in http://richarddawkins.net/article,823,Is-this-another-Sokal-Hoax,Carolyn-G-Guertin for an example of something that is completely turgid.

What they seem to want though is for science to be taught neutrally, with no reference to its implications or values. This is obviously wrong.

It is at this point one feels the loss of people like Carl Sagan and Jacob Bronowski. One also has to regret the dumbing down or cowardice of broadcasting organisations that no longer produce the kind of programmes that advance science with the population.

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19. Comment #31981 by chrisrkline on April 15, 2007 at 5:43 am

I enjoyed much of Mooney's Republican War on Science, and as an atheist married to a wonderful religious moderate, I am sympathetic to his argument.

But I do agree with the overall thrust of the comments here. But something else strikes me as a problem with the article. If I were a creationist, I would use columns like this in my pulpit to "prove" that when evolutionists claim to be religious moderates, they are really just atheists in disguise, since that is the strategy people like Nisbet and Mooney are suggesting.

Scientists will be accused of saying one thing in public--"we are OK with religion"--while secretly believing (promoting) a different one--"We really hate religion." This is too easy to play up as a conspiracy.

It would be much better for scientists simply to be honest.

Other Comments by chrisrkline

20. Comment #31984 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 15, 2007 at 5:52 am

 avatarOK fellow infidels, my latest effort at re-educating the masses. The Ethics of Hell. Post, promote and dsitribute according to taste : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FatTbfGCJVI

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

21. Comment #31994 by debaser71 on April 15, 2007 at 6:42 am

Dawkins has said that he's interested in fighting the larger battle of reason vs. superstition over the smaller skirmishes like evolution or global warming. That to get people to think clearly and reasonably in the first place would mean that the smaller issues would fall into place as well. I agree that this isx good for at least some people. But the bottom line is that we need people doing things from all angles to appeal to as many people as possible. See where Dawkins might scare some folk, he's inspiring others. Where Mooney appeals to people's political hatred of neocons Dawkins is appealing to people's skeptism regarding religon. All this infighting amont supposed reasonable and rational people disturbs me. In my opinion one could focus less on each other and more on "the enemy".

/rant off....fed up with the notion that there's only one way to get the publib on board with a scientific outlook.

Other Comments by debaser71

22. Comment #31997 by Glacian on April 15, 2007 at 6:52 am

 avatar"Can't science and religion just get along?"

No.

Religion makes claims incompatible with what we know about reality. Those claims either need to step up to the plate and show themselves to have scientific credibility (they won't), or the believers ought to concede that what they believe is a bunch of memetic, tradition-bound, culturally-transmitted garbage that's managed to survive a couple thousand years of human ignorance. They don't exist in seperate realms. The notion that God magically created all life is NOT a notion in a seperate realm, it's a notion about THIS reality. The notion that souls exist and when we die we'll be whisked away to an afterlife has had a NEGATIVE impact on society; and for all the good it's done, the best you could say is that it's offered comfort only by deluding people into believing bullcrap.

These articles are starting to annoy me a little less. This sounds like little more than a desperate plea for Dawkins and us atheists to "please go away!!!!" Maybe they really are getting afraid of us. Backfire? How is it backfiring? Non-belief is finally getting more public recognition than ever; it's just these fellas seem to think that's a bad thing. PZ Myers did NOT miss the point; all these attempts at reconciling religion and science are little more than appeasing religion by ignoring it and tightening up what we talk about publicly so as not to inflame their beliefs. The only reason these people have such strong convictions is that nobody's ever openly, publicly challenged them, and probably because they're in so much internal doubt to begin with.

I challenge you, all ye faithful, to stop whining and complaining about others "attacking" your beliefs, and face us, open, fair and square, before the public, in open dialogues, in open discussions. Face us. Because you will lose. You know you have no rational foundation for your belief. Apologetics is a smokescreen for hiding the failures of your religion, masquerading behind theological-semantic babble. And most of you know nothing of real theological arguments and the attempts to find reason behind faith, anyway. You just assert the regurgitated opinions of others because you're too afraid to think for yourself. Atheists are not here to harm you and tear your world apart; we're speaking out because you have been deluded, you have been raised, however well-intentioned, to believe things that are not true. It is through skepticism and scientific thinking that we recognize just how important it is to admit our errors.

In fact, I'd say, since becoming a scientific thinker, I've become more responsible, because now I am inclined to declare my errors where they exist in any facet of life. Christianity is a means of evading responsibility, and the biggest responsibility it helps you evade is the obligation to think for yourself.

Other Comments by Glacian

23. Comment #32005 by Mikado on April 15, 2007 at 7:36 am

I would think that most believers in the US and elsewhere would be more happy if their priest just said: "God did it and evolution is how he did it". My experience with most believers is that they have a problem with letting go of god but have no problem with dismissing most of the bible.

My problem with the modern left is that I find them far to conservative for my liking.

Keep up the good work RD.:)

Other Comments by Mikado

24. Comment #32102 by DistrictSelectman on April 15, 2007 at 5:19 pm

 avatarMy favorite comment from the Post's website:

Excuse me--The public cannot be expected to differentiate between his advocacy of evolution and his atheism--? Well, golly, duh, this member of the public gonna try real hard. This wooden-headed no-nuffink gonna see ifen she might can do. But hows she spose to unnerstand what e-vol-u-tion be and what a-the-ism be withouten the wiseness of yourn people whats rites yourn paper? Be given thanks to you and yourn fer putten usns in ours places.

By pegric | Apr 15, 2007 2:08:45 PM

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25. Comment #32139 by Yossarian on April 16, 2007 at 12:39 am

scientists don't need to dumb darwinism down, or tart it up. they need to keep doing what they've been doing: patiently explaining the evidence. every time a new poll comes out showing that a substantial number of americans are ignorant of basic biology, the scientific community is chastised for doing a poor job of communicating its ideas. and yet the religous community, for all the years of lies, misdeeds, and obfuscation on a massive scale, doesn't even get a mention! no, no. the problem is that scientists are too boring and can't communicate with average knuckle-dragging americans.

well, call me naive, but i think americans are plenty smart enough to understand evolution, and if the public could get a reasonably unfiltered look at the evidence, they would come around. the problem is: most of us are taught to hate and fear evolution before we even know what it is.

Other Comments by Yossarian

26. Comment #32143 by Philip1978 on April 16, 2007 at 1:34 am

 avatarbriancoughlanworldcitizen yet again you have excelled yourself, if I if had a pint in my hand I would raise it to you, but since its only half 9 in the morning I raise my Tea to you instead! Tremendous video, well explained, funny and with the added plus of more fit women!! (not that I am shallow or anything, women are not objects etc etc)

Other Comments by Philip1978

27. Comment #32151 by HunterZolomon on April 16, 2007 at 2:12 am

 avatarI cannot imagine exactly how Nisbet and Mooney hope scientists should communicate. "Evolution for Dummies"? This article seems to imply that scientists should be cautious about directly communicating the plain and simple truth. Why? Because some people are so entrenched in their delusional beliefs about the world they will be offended by new evidence, new theories? That they (heaven forbid) might be wrong?

Also, why is it that the word "scientist" in articles like this comes across as "inhuman alien". The word "scientist" seems to imply a cold and unfeeling character, someone who is really clever, yet struggles with the understanding of basic human emotions. A scientist should not have to revert to political tactics or sensitivity training to communicate.

Truth should be enough.

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28. Comment #32155 by ktillyer on April 16, 2007 at 2:35 am

 avatarHaving read this and PZ Myer's response I believe Nisbet and Mooney are not entirely wrong and that PZ Myer's is something of a reactionary. I agree that the anti-religion pro-science banner needs to be writ large and hoisted high, but their point is well made. It's a point that Myer's and many posters here have seem to have avoided, and that is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Meyer's states that "candy coating the implications of science will never work…" Sorry, beg to differ. You don't tell a woman how the contraceptive pill works; you just say you won't get pregnant if you take it. There is room for other avenues of persuasion. Alongside the awareness raising efforts of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris et al, there must also be people using the 'softly softly' approach to persuade those who are put-off by the science and the table banging. I needed no convincing; I was already headed that way and so found the message that Dawkins and Harris are putting out to be dead right and clear as crystal. Others will need a different form of persuasion. Let's face it; this is not going to be put right overnight - there's a long haul ahead of us. The religious have a 2000-year PR advantage over us so we must use all avenues of persuasion as effectively as possible.

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29. Comment #32171 by HunterZolomon on April 16, 2007 at 4:15 am

 avatarktillyer: "You don't tell a woman how the contraceptive pill works; you just say you won't get pregnant if you take it."

Why not? Suppose she wants to know? Maybe she should know, considering its about her body.

I agree with your point about this effort being a very, very long haul. But do we really need to use "other avenues of persuasion"? What exactly, do these alternative avenues consist of? Keeping people partly in the dark?

Obviously being rude and condescending will not aid the atheist cause, but when it comes to science, what roads other than honesty and truth are viable?

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30. Comment #32173 by epeeist on April 16, 2007 at 4:37 am

 avatarComment #32171 by HunterZolomon

I agree with your point about this effort being a very, very long haul. But do we really need to use "other avenues of persuasion"?

Yes we do.

People are different, they have a variety of cultural and educational backgrounds, different levels of intelligence, multiple learning styles etc.

Using a method of persuasion keyed to your audience is sensible.

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31. Comment #32180 by HunterZolomon on April 16, 2007 at 5:29 am

 avatar"Using a method of persuasion keyed to your audience is sensible."

Of course it is, as long as the method of persuasion doesn't harm the integrity of science. That was what I was questioning.

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32. Comment #32200 by katiemuffett on April 16, 2007 at 6:53 am

 avatarI wouldn't actually say that any of the popular scientists or philosophers that I've written to are elitist or particularly diffident towards those with no academic accolades. [Perhaps with the exception of Simon Blackburn who said that I should take an introduction to philosophy course rather than send round my own list of questions. I simply interpret this as group mentality - 'why should I try to learn in a different way to everyone else?' etc]

What I've come to experience is that popular scientists (science being the targeted subject of this article) have taken on the mantle of celebrity, and are therefore placing themselves at a distance to 'the public'. I get the impression from my rejection letters that they are not so much disdaining me as some kind of upstart, as they are wary of expressing any 'unofficial' comment that could be released to the media.

I'm afraid those in question need to get used to defending their cause not just in an offical, academic capacity, but in dynamic public forums like those on this site. Blah blah, the media shows no interest at the moment. I've taken time out of my unqualified, dumbass life to show my interest, just as all of you have shown interest. They're not popstars, they're scientists. It's not like anyone's throwing bras at them or chasing them screaming down a train platform. No one cares if Lewis Wolpert is photographed wearing a mini skirt and no pants at a nightclub. Well, they probably would.

In response to the focus of this article, Dawkins is one of the few popular scientists that I know of who has carried on the public discourse that the Carl Sagan generation so brilliantly and generously engaged in. In fact, the one thing I would personally say is that he is not in the slightest elitist, and that his zeal is not at all mixed with arrogance. Agreeing with him isn't the point, being able to openly argue with him is (hence the job title).

- Isn't there something distinctly incongruous about accusing Dawkins of taking the soul out of humanity when he can also be equally criticised for letting passion cloud his judgement? I would much prefer an angry Jeremiah among the people than a pious Abraham in the clouds - if that isn't too sacrilegious a comparison to make on this site.

Blimey that's a long post.

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33. Comment #32218 by bouwe on April 16, 2007 at 8:12 am

Maybe scientists need to learn to play "good cop, bad cop" -- Dawkins and Harris shine the stark headlamp of reason into the squinting eyes of the creationist, threatening to beat him up with atheism: "We got enough on your Friend, this Guy, to put him away for (eternal) LIFE! I mean, this guy has practically confessed. He's already admitted to crimes in the books of Exodus, Samuel, Joshua!!! And the boys from the lab have confimed with DNA evidence that we come from monkeys!"

Then they walk out of the room: "Over to you guys..." an exasperated Dawkins says, throwing his Science Badge on the desk. Then the appeasers tag team take over, take the creationist aside and say "Hey, we believe in God TOO, y'know? You don't want THOSE GUYS to win, do you?"

Maybe that'll work?


Just some light comedy relief for you all. Enjoy the discussions here. Keep it coming.

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34. Comment #32240 by rabidchihauhau on April 16, 2007 at 10:44 am

 avatarI haven't read all the commentary, so sorry if I'm reiterating someone else's point:

ummm - maybe one of the reasons that so many folks have trouble dealing with 'data dumps' is because they've been taught to think (if you can call it that) in a non-critical, religion has all the answers way.

The whole argument in this piece strikes me as putting opinion on a par with fact. And that's the problem - almost all of the societal and cultural issues are being influenced and decided by people who have opinions and no facts.

Lets pander to the least common denominator - they're talking about marketing here, not science!

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35. Comment #32243 by Thrall on April 16, 2007 at 11:14 am

Durrr. Sience is hard. Cant you just tell me what it says?

Isn't this exactly why 75% of american's don't think evolution is real? Because they think such perposterous things as "My grandfather wasn't an ape" and "peanut butter disproves evolution"

If all of you haven't seen "Idiocracy" yet, you should, it's so tragically funny.

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36. Comment #32253 by Arcturus on April 16, 2007 at 12:40 pm

 avatarTalking about facts and the religious right, are you aware of this:

http://www.slate.com/id/2163601/fr/rss/

Who's the Boss?
How Pat Robertson's law school is changing America.
By Dahlia Lithwick

Monica Goodling has a problem. As senior counsel to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and Justice Department liaison to the White House, Goodling no longer seems to know what the truth is. She must also be increasingly unclear about who her superiors are. This didn't used to be a problem for Goodling, now on indefinite leave from the DoJ. Everything was once very certain: Her boss's truth was always the same as God's truth. Her boss was always either God or one of His staffers.

Goodling is only one of 150 graduates of Regent University currently serving in this administration, as Regent's Web site proclaims proudly, a huge number for a 29-year-old school. Regent estimates that "approximately one out of every six Regent alumni is employed in some form of government work." And that's precisely what its founder desired. The school's motto is "Christian Leadership To Change the World," and the world seems to be changing apace. Former Attorney General John Ashcroft teaches at Regent, and graduates have achieved senior positions in the Bush administration. The express goal is not only to tear down the wall between church and state in America (a "lie of the left," according to Robertson) but also to enmesh the two.


------

read more at Slate ...

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37. Comment #32824 by Red Foot Oakie on April 18, 2007 at 11:11 am

 avatarPeople! You likely do not have a more valuable ally in the battle against the absurd claims of religion than Chris Mooney.

You! Drop what you are doing and go get a copy of his book "The Republican War on Science" and read it. Now!

Mr. Mooney has done the hard work of hunting down, cataloging, and exposing the exact methodologies that politicians use to distort science, scientific research, and the application of that research in the public arena. He's done it, so you don't have to.

And he has a solid point- the religious do not sit down and think about things that threaten their worldview, they don't read opposing points of view- they PURGE those views. They support any political leader who WILL purge those views. That's why Oklahoma labors with a horse's ass like Inhofe- because he defends the faith.

Scientists, researchers, techs, they all need to do a better job of getting the word out about what it is they do, how they do it, and what it means, so that the public will not be so easily swayed into believing that there is doubt when there is not.

Mooney and Nisbet are fighting for the small victories- like teaching evolution, and demonstrating the scientific consensus on global warming. Not necessarily the same battle that R. Dawkins is fighting, but damned important ones.

They feel that a friendlier tone from team science might have a better chance of swaying the members of team stupid. They have a point.

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38. Comment #32967 by alienward on April 18, 2007 at 9:43 pm

From the article:

"We agree with Dawkins on evolution and admire his books, so we don't enjoy singling him out. But he stands as a particularly stark example of scientists' failure to explain hot-button issues, such as global warming and evolution, to a wary public."

I don't give too much credibility to someone who says this while pushing a book that blames Republicans for feeding misrepresentations of science to a gullible public, and knows full well the misrepresentations of evolution are coming solely from theists.

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39. Comment #33960 by cmacblue42 on April 22, 2007 at 9:48 pm

"It's here that scientists and their allies are stumbling in our information-overloaded society -- even as scientific information itself"

Did they just say America was overloaded with information???

If you mean information about Anna Nicole Smith's baby's father, or about how Sanjaya botched another song on American Idol, then yes, we are overloaded with information.

If oyu mean overloaded with information that is relevant (like Dawkins provides us with), then you are sadly mistaken because we never get any relevant information in American news, nowhere close to stuff the BBC presents. all american news is, is Entertaiment Tonight (a celebrity gossip show) with Iraq and the latest crimes.

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