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Atheism isn't the final word
by Don Feder
Reposted from:
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/04/post_47.html?csp=34
Thanks to Robert Perovich for sending this in.
Books making the case against God seem to be multiplying, becoming more strident and absolute with each turned page. Though no one can prove or disprove God's existence, our history reveals the unmistakable footprints of something greater than man.
Oh, for the days when one could safely stroll into a bookstore without tripping over the latest atheist title. Ironically, by writing their tracts, in the long run atheists might boost belief.
My local Barnes & Noble has the following titles on display Atheist Manifesto: The Case Against Christianity, Judaism, and Islam ; The Quotable Atheist; Letter To A Christian Nation; God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist; and The God Delusion, which is a New York Times best-seller.
Rep. Pete Stark, D-Calif., has become the first member of Congress to announce that he doesn't believe in God. He's probably just looking for a book deal.
Why the sudden outpouring of atheist advocacy? Perhaps it's a way for the cultural left to assert itself in the face of the religious right. Or maybe it's meant to show that the anti-God argument can be framed more intelligently than in a Bill Maher monologue. Whatever the impetus, as a believer, I welcome the phenomenon. After all, the great enemy of belief isn't disbelief but indifference.
Let the godless write their books and the faithful answer them. The disillusionment with religion that dominated British intellectual circles after World War I helped to shape the great Christian apologist C.S. Lewis. The surviving son of atheist icon Madalyn Murray O'Hair is an evangelical Christian.
The books referenced above assert that the debate is over and that atheism has won, but atheists have been saying that for more than 200 years. Since the French Enlightenment, the death of God has been confidently proclaimed. Religion has been made obsolete by egalitarian revolution, industrialism, or science, they insisted. Yet, early in the 21st century, faith endures.
Outlasting the Soviet Union
For 70-plus years, the Soviets tried everything imaginable to kill religion: show trials, mass murder of clerics, confiscations, indoctrination and even attempts to co-opt religious symbols and ceremonies. But belief survived, while scientific socialism is now defunct.
In China, where communism's war on God continues, the home-church movement thrives. Half a world away, America has the highest weekly church attendance in the industrialized world, notwithstanding attacks on faith from Hollywood, academia and a judiciary seemingly intent on purging religious symbols from public spaces.
In the USA the most science-oriented society in history Christian bookstores, radio stations and TV programming proliferate. It seems as though a hunger for the Creator is imprinted on the human heart.
What would a world without God look like? Well, for one, morality becomes, if not impossible, exceedingly difficult. "Thou shalt not kill" loses much of its force when reduced from commandment to a suggestion. How inspiring can it be to wake in the morning, look in the mirror, and see an accident of evolutionary history the end product of the random collision of molecules?
A universe that isn't God-centered becomes ego-centered. People come to see choices through the prism of self: what promotes the individual's well-being and happiness. Such a worldview does not naturally lead to benevolence or self-sacrifice.
An affirmation of God can lead to the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount and the Declaration of Independence. In terms of morality, a denial of God leads nowhere.
There are no secularist counterparts to Pope John Paul II, Mother Teresa, William Wilberforce (the evangelical responsible for abolition of the British slave trade), Martin Luther King Jr., or the Christians from France to Poland who rescued Jews during the Holocaust.
True, terrible things have been done in the name of religion. Terrible things have been done in the name of every noble concept, including love, charity, loyalty and kinship. Yet, the worst horrors of the modern era were perpetrated by godless political creeds. The death toll from sectarian conflict over the ages is dwarfed by ideological violence, from the Jacobinism of Revolutionary France to the charnel houses of communism and fascism.
This is not to say that atheism leads naturally to guillotines and gulags, but, just as "love your fellow man as yourself" can be corrupted, so too can liberty, equality and fraternity.
Signs throughout history
There is no irrefutable evidence for God's existence or non-existence. But, if you look closely, his footprints can be discerned in the sands of time.
Jews introduced the world to monotheism. They also were the first people to perceive history as linear an unfolding story moving toward a conclusion. Is it a coincidence that this tiny, originally nomadic people generated the ideas that shaped the Western world, including equality, human rights and a responsibility to our fellow man? Jews are the only people to maintain their identity during two millennia of exile, and then return to their homeland and re-establish their nation.
Mark Twain wrote: "The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up, held their torch high for a time, but it burned out and they sit in twilight now or have vanished.
All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?" Had Twain been a believer, he might have answered his own question.
America's survival and rise to global pre-eminence are equally improbable. Challenging the greatest empire of the 18th century, America should never have won its independence or should have self-destructed during the Civil War.
Alexis de Tocqueville observed that the genius of our infant republic lay not in its farms and workshops but in its churches whose "pulpits flame with righteousness."
Atheists are free to disbelieve and to try to propagate their disbelief in books and other intellectual forums. But saying the debate is over doesn't make it so. A bit of humility might make their case more convincing. Then again, humility is itself a religious concept.
Don Feder is a former syndicated columnist and author of Who's Afraid of the Religious Right?
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/04/post_47.html?csp=34
Thanks to Robert Perovich for sending this in.
Books making the case against God seem to be multiplying, becoming more strident and absolute with each turned page. Though no one can prove or disprove God's existence, our history reveals the unmistakable footprints of something greater than man.
Oh, for the days when one could safely stroll into a bookstore without tripping over the latest atheist title. Ironically, by writing their tracts, in the long run atheists might boost belief.
My local Barnes & Noble has the following titles on display Atheist Manifesto: The Case Against Christianity, Judaism, and Islam ; The Quotable Atheist; Letter To A Christian Nation; God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist; and The God Delusion, which is a New York Times best-seller.
Rep. Pete Stark, D-Calif., has become the first member of Congress to announce that he doesn't believe in God. He's probably just looking for a book deal.
Why the sudden outpouring of atheist advocacy? Perhaps it's a way for the cultural left to assert itself in the face of the religious right. Or maybe it's meant to show that the anti-God argument can be framed more intelligently than in a Bill Maher monologue. Whatever the impetus, as a believer, I welcome the phenomenon. After all, the great enemy of belief isn't disbelief but indifference.
Let the godless write their books and the faithful answer them. The disillusionment with religion that dominated British intellectual circles after World War I helped to shape the great Christian apologist C.S. Lewis. The surviving son of atheist icon Madalyn Murray O'Hair is an evangelical Christian.
The books referenced above assert that the debate is over and that atheism has won, but atheists have been saying that for more than 200 years. Since the French Enlightenment, the death of God has been confidently proclaimed. Religion has been made obsolete by egalitarian revolution, industrialism, or science, they insisted. Yet, early in the 21st century, faith endures.
Outlasting the Soviet Union
For 70-plus years, the Soviets tried everything imaginable to kill religion: show trials, mass murder of clerics, confiscations, indoctrination and even attempts to co-opt religious symbols and ceremonies. But belief survived, while scientific socialism is now defunct.
In China, where communism's war on God continues, the home-church movement thrives. Half a world away, America has the highest weekly church attendance in the industrialized world, notwithstanding attacks on faith from Hollywood, academia and a judiciary seemingly intent on purging religious symbols from public spaces.
In the USA the most science-oriented society in history Christian bookstores, radio stations and TV programming proliferate. It seems as though a hunger for the Creator is imprinted on the human heart.
What would a world without God look like? Well, for one, morality becomes, if not impossible, exceedingly difficult. "Thou shalt not kill" loses much of its force when reduced from commandment to a suggestion. How inspiring can it be to wake in the morning, look in the mirror, and see an accident of evolutionary history the end product of the random collision of molecules?
A universe that isn't God-centered becomes ego-centered. People come to see choices through the prism of self: what promotes the individual's well-being and happiness. Such a worldview does not naturally lead to benevolence or self-sacrifice.
An affirmation of God can lead to the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount and the Declaration of Independence. In terms of morality, a denial of God leads nowhere.
There are no secularist counterparts to Pope John Paul II, Mother Teresa, William Wilberforce (the evangelical responsible for abolition of the British slave trade), Martin Luther King Jr., or the Christians from France to Poland who rescued Jews during the Holocaust.
True, terrible things have been done in the name of religion. Terrible things have been done in the name of every noble concept, including love, charity, loyalty and kinship. Yet, the worst horrors of the modern era were perpetrated by godless political creeds. The death toll from sectarian conflict over the ages is dwarfed by ideological violence, from the Jacobinism of Revolutionary France to the charnel houses of communism and fascism.
This is not to say that atheism leads naturally to guillotines and gulags, but, just as "love your fellow man as yourself" can be corrupted, so too can liberty, equality and fraternity.
Signs throughout history
There is no irrefutable evidence for God's existence or non-existence. But, if you look closely, his footprints can be discerned in the sands of time.
Jews introduced the world to monotheism. They also were the first people to perceive history as linear an unfolding story moving toward a conclusion. Is it a coincidence that this tiny, originally nomadic people generated the ideas that shaped the Western world, including equality, human rights and a responsibility to our fellow man? Jews are the only people to maintain their identity during two millennia of exile, and then return to their homeland and re-establish their nation.
Mark Twain wrote: "The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up, held their torch high for a time, but it burned out and they sit in twilight now or have vanished.
All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?" Had Twain been a believer, he might have answered his own question.
America's survival and rise to global pre-eminence are equally improbable. Challenging the greatest empire of the 18th century, America should never have won its independence or should have self-destructed during the Civil War.
Alexis de Tocqueville observed that the genius of our infant republic lay not in its farms and workshops but in its churches whose "pulpits flame with righteousness."
Atheists are free to disbelieve and to try to propagate their disbelief in books and other intellectual forums. But saying the debate is over doesn't make it so. A bit of humility might make their case more convincing. Then again, humility is itself a religious concept.
Don Feder is a former syndicated columnist and author of Who's Afraid of the Religious Right?
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Posted: Monday, April 16, 2007 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 126 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #32312 by Fouad Boussetta on April 16, 2007 at 8:53 pm
What a disgusting pile of trash! Other Comments by Fouad Boussetta
3. Comment #32313 by brue68 on April 16, 2007 at 8:55 pm
*sigh* as usual, it's the same tired old arguments. "atheists have no morality, good things are done through religion" and so on*edit* I really wish that just once they would come up with something original, it would make things interesting
Other Comments by brue68
4. Comment #32314 by uzi on April 16, 2007 at 8:56 pm
In a nutshell, he claims that without the bible (I mean "The Bible"), there would be no morals. (That leaves me wondering, how did the Buddhists manage to pull it off?) Furthermore, people would feel bad if they were just an "accident" of nature [weak appeal to emotion]. Yawn. What an uninspired article.Other Comments by uzi
5. Comment #32315 by Ev3nt H0riz0n on April 16, 2007 at 8:57 pm
wow its another God=morality smoking pile. I like it how he ends his trash with a statement so ironic as "Then again, humility is itself a religious concept.". Other Comments by Ev3nt H0riz0n
6. Comment #32317 by Patrick McArdle on April 16, 2007 at 9:00 pm
Good point. Anyone who doesn't know about the fight between Jefferson and Franklin over inclusion of a deity in the Declaration isn't worth answering. Ditto the Roman law practiced in the modern USA, and the theological justifications for slavery. The self-righteous thumping about the Holocaust was really offensive, though; as Sam Harris shows in The End of Faith, it was the logical consequence of centuries of Christian persecutions of Jews, and not one German Catholic was excommunicated for sending Jewish children to the furnaces. The God Delusion is even bigger than previously thought! (Pun intended!)Other Comments by Patrick McArdle
7. Comment #32318 by DavidJMH on April 16, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Ladies and Gentlemen,What does anything of the above have to do with reason and enlightenment. Adherence to a traditional, though invented socio-political doctrine, simply because it has been forced upon the populace for millenia, is no reason to give it any credence in these scientifically enlightened times. As comforting as the idea of an all seeing, knowing and "forgiving" universal entity may be, showing it for the brainwashing fraud it has always been must be the duty of all freethinking people. It is clear from the article, the author is not a freethinker and is incapable of imagining his life without having this supposed entity taking the responsibility for it.
Other Comments by DavidJMH
8. Comment #32319 by BT Murtagh on April 16, 2007 at 9:05 pm
I'm with roach, except in my case it was Atheist Manifesto: The Case Against Christianity, Judaism, and Islam I didn't know was out. Perhaps it was hidden behind the entire bookcases devoted just to Bibles, and even more devoted to Christian-themed works. It's amusing to me that Mr. Feder feels so obstructed in his perambulations by a mere five titles.
I do wonder where he's reading these atheist claiming societal victory, though. Most atheists I know consider the arguments compelling, obviously, but I don't know of any who think we've convinced everybody, or even that it's inevitable we will. Quite the contrary; most of us are desperately concerned that nothing will suffice to get through to those hooked on faith, at least to the extent that they cease trying to insert their theology into our classrooms and government.
Other Comments by BT Murtagh
9. Comment #32321 by Celandine on April 16, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Funny, I've never seen any of these footprints he claims are so evident.Other Comments by Celandine
10. Comment #32322 by PeterK on April 16, 2007 at 9:21 pm
It's as if someone asked this writer to compose an essay that would include as many logical fallacies as possible. He then cleverly chose to defend christianity "against" atheism, as this offers one the greatest opportunity to do just that.Other Comments by PeterK
11. Comment #32323 by BAEOZ on April 16, 2007 at 9:24 pm
"All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?" Had Twain been a believer, he might have answered his own question."Lovely, this after the fact reasoning. If it had of been Woden/Wotan and his mob that survived and became the main source of current belief he would've said the same things, but substitued Jew for Norseman. Doesn't mean a thing. Just rubbish.
Other Comments by BAEOZ
12. Comment #32325 by Jessie on April 16, 2007 at 9:30 pm
What would a world without God look like? Well, for one, morality becomes, if not impossible, exceedingly difficult. "Thou shalt not kill" loses much of its force when reduced from commandment to a suggestion. How inspiring can it be to wake in the morning, look in the mirror, and see an accident of evolutionary history the end product of the random collision of molecules?
I'm getting tired and annoyed with this whole arguement. Do these people really think that the only reason not to murder people is that "God" says we shouldn't? What kind of morality is that? Personally, I really have no desire to murder anyone, despite my non-belief in God. Plus, you can have secular laws intended to protect people from murderers without Holy books being involved.
I'm not really bothered by the fact that my species evolved from another, non-human species. That's quite okay with me. Even if it weren't, that's just the way things are.
Other Comments by Jessie
13. Comment #32326 by mandrellian on April 16, 2007 at 9:36 pm
I'll be happy when I can safely stroll into a hotel room and not find a Bible lurking in the top drawer of the bedside table. I'd love to be able to answer my door on a Saturday morning without worrying about which variety of domesticated vacant-looking book-basher is standing there waiting to ask if I want to talk about God.I'll be happy when religionists stop projecting their own traits onto atheists. Atheists don't try and convert people, they don't build monolithic churches and constantly beg for your money on TV, they don't frighten you with stories of eternal torment at the hands of an infernal boogie-man and they don't look verifiable facts in the face then elect to take the word of an ancient book or a licensed religionist.
Atheists don't want to "win", we want people to stop being wilfully ignorant. We want people like the author to actually understand what our argument is before trotting out the same tired responses. such as "religion = morality".
But I must thank the author for one thing: I now have a couple more books on my "to-read" list :)
Other Comments by mandrellian
14. Comment #32327 by troyreynolds86 on April 16, 2007 at 10:02 pm
What the author also fails to realize, and blazenly gets backwards, is that America is religious and the most scientifically illiterate country in the industrialized world. He fails to mention the studies done that not only show America to be mostly against believing in evolution and unable to state what a gene is. We may be the mass consumer of science via gadgets and gizmos, and our labs may do some important work, but as a populace we are completely in the dark about science. This is the only industrialized country that has had a major movement for ID, for Christ's sakes.Other Comments by troyreynolds86
15. Comment #32329 by Convertedchristian on April 16, 2007 at 10:12 pm
HEY!!!! I'm an american and I know what a gene iS!!! They are Gods little building blocks of course!! Everyone knows that. Oh, and as far as ID goes, have fun in hell dawrin lover. I'll be in heaven buming smokes off jesus. GOD BLESS AMERICA.This is a joke least anyone think otherwise. I know some of you can't get the onion, so i just thought I'd make a disclamer.
Other Comments by Convertedchristian
16. Comment #32331 by steveg1961 on April 16, 2007 at 10:19 pm
Oh, for the days when one can safely stroll into a bookstore without tripping over the latest title of made-up stuff based on superstition, and glorifying superstition.Other Comments by steveg1961
17. Comment #32332 by Andrew Brown on April 16, 2007 at 10:22 pm
There are no secularist counterparts to Pope John Paul II, Mother Teresa, William Wilberforce (the evangelical responsible for abolition of the British slave trade), Martin Luther King Jr., or the Christians from France to Poland who rescued Jews during the Holocaust.Just off the top of my head Bob Geldof springs to mind. Can anyone think of any more?
Other Comments by Andrew Brown
18. Comment #32333 by BAEOZ on April 16, 2007 at 10:28 pm
Just on the secular conterparts to the Pope and Mother Teresa, would you want ones? I mean the pope condemed female believers to unwanted pregnancies and people to catching aids because the were forbidden to use condoms. Mother Teresa wanted people to suffer and thought abortion was the biggest crime committed against mankind. Not sure we need secular counterparts to that kind of backward amoral thinking. Other Comments by BAEOZ
19. Comment #32334 by MorituriMax on April 16, 2007 at 10:34 pm
So... it is okay to have tens of thousands of books on religion, thousands of books on UFOs, tens or hundreds of thousands of books on Cooking, etc etc, but he's upset that he is tripping over more books on atheism? How many hundreds of books on atheism are out? Maybe his next desire is to burn all the books he doesn't want to read?Nice philosophy he has. Oh and the atheist books get more and more "strident" in his words.. wow.. what an absolute crime against humanity.
Other Comments by MorituriMax
20. Comment #32335 by Andrew Brown on April 16, 2007 at 10:36 pm
Re: Comment #32333 by BAEOZTotally agree with you on the pope and mother theresa. I was just wondering if there were any non religious examples of people doing what Feder percieves as the noble self sacrifice of his Christian altruists.
I think Oxfam and Medcins sans Frontieres are secular organisations as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Other Comments by Andrew Brown
21. Comment #32336 by MorituriMax on April 16, 2007 at 10:38 pm
The books referenced above assert that the debate is over and that atheism has won, but atheists have been saying that for more than 200 years. Since the French Enlightenment, the death of God has been confidently proclaimed. Religion has been made obsolete by egalitarian revolution, industrialism, or science, they insisted. Yet, early in the 21st century, faith endures.
So he is worried why? If it's all cut and dried on the religious home front why is he even worried about something that's been ongoing for 200 years?
Other Comments by MorituriMax
22. Comment #32341 by Freelance Scientist on April 16, 2007 at 10:59 pm
In the USA the most science-oriented society in history
Eh ? Where around half of the population don't understand or accept Darwinian evolution ?
The minority of Americans in that case are working far too hard in my opinion to carry such a claim of scientific excellence.
Other Comments by Freelance Scientist
23. Comment #32342 by eggplantbren on April 16, 2007 at 11:02 pm
>>An affirmation of God can lead to the Ten Commandments<<Don't forget, boiling goats in their mothers milk is baaad news!
Other Comments by eggplantbren
24. Comment #32343 by relevo on April 16, 2007 at 11:08 pm
A universe that isn't God-centered becomes ego-centered. People come to see choices through the prism of self: what promotes the individual's well-being and happiness. Such a worldview does not naturally lead to benevolence or self-sacrifice.Whether you follow a God concept or not, there is no escaping egocentricity. In actuality, God concept is a step further in egocentricity than materialistic naturalism alone, because God concept anthropomorphizes reality to fit human centered creeds. For egocentricity, you need look no further than a view where one feels "Man is created in God's image", and where the enormity of the universe is altogether ignored for the prospect that a personal anthropomorphic deity concerns itself with every single people matter no matter how insignificant on a tiny blue spec teeming with extremely fragile life. God concept isn't as egocentric as solipsism, but its premises do hold to the same standards of evidence, meaning pure ego, nothing else. Faith in itself IS NOTHING BUT EGO.
Self-sacrifice also isn't necessarily a noble thing, especially when it requires the detriment of one helper party, when what should really be the case is that people take actions that result in the betterment of all parties involved. Benevolence, in fact, any ethical view is not intrinsic if not consistently reinforced, and reassessed for effectiveness.
However, I do agree with the author's concession that secularists haven't ever done enough to influence society in a manner that leads people to drop disingenuous religious mystic superstitions. The sooner ethical secularists form a front that outdoes classical religiosity in terms of natural selection, the sooner people will focus on making society more progressively fair through more effective use of evolving transhumanist technological methods. There is no noble savage, but there is an ignorant savage which must be continually re-enlightened with the best honest knowledge people have been able to muster. The problem is that this knowledge isn't made available to everyone, and the information that is being most disseminated is that being provided by religious proselytizers, now being further subverted into venues as illusorily valid above other required knowledge in what are supposed to be secular high schools. I mean, really. Bible electives? Why not something many times more honestly useful, like basic logic, or philosophy?
Other Comments by relevo
25. Comment #32344 by Damien White on April 16, 2007 at 11:14 pm
This guy has, like most other godbotherers, neglected to give any thought to the issue. Just off the top of my head, a secular version of Mother Teresa would be Florence Nightingale.Who else but the Jews have retained their cultural identity through 2000 years of constant persecution? Try the Gypsies.
When will these people learn that morality does not come from a book? To claim that it does cheapens it enormously.
Other Comments by Damien White
26. Comment #32345 by Robert Maynard on April 16, 2007 at 11:21 pm
TheFixed.books referenced aboveNew Testament asserts thatthe debate is oversin is defeatedand that atheism has wonChrist will return to judge the living and the dead, butatheistsChristians have been saying that for more than 2000 years.
Other Comments by Robert Maynard
27. Comment #32346 by Spinoza on April 16, 2007 at 11:24 pm
"What would a world without God look like? Well, for one, morality becomes, if not impossible, exceedingly difficult. "Thou shalt not kill" loses much of its force when reduced from commandment to a suggestion. How inspiring can it be to wake in the morning, look in the mirror, and see an accident of evolutionary history the end product of the random collision of molecules?"IDIOT! LEARN SOME FUCKING MORAL PHILOSOPHY OR SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Other Comments by Spinoza
28. Comment #32347 by Spinoza on April 16, 2007 at 11:24 pm
Lol... sorry... just makes me very annoyed when people talk such obvious bullshit and get away with it. Other Comments by Spinoza
29. Comment #32349 by Nuclearman on April 16, 2007 at 11:29 pm
Regarding the trophy claims to John Paul II and M. Teresa, and if their is an atheist equivalent... I can put forward a name, but I have no idea if he is atheist or not: Donald A. Henderson. For those of you not familiar with the name, he was the medical doctor who lead the WHO world wide program to eradicate small pox from the face of the planet. The work of this man, and those who worked under his charge, have collectively saved more lives in the last 3 decades than any the Church can make claim to.Now, what remains is to determine if he is atheist or not, and on that score I emphasize -- again -- that I do not know. Internet searches I attempted turned up nothing on this question. Would be VERY interesting if, like most scientists, he is a non-believer. :)
Other Comments by Nuclearman
30. Comment #32350 by Spinoza on April 16, 2007 at 11:29 pm
Also... it's a RED HERRING to start comparing who's done what in the history of the world... good theists vs. good atheists... I mean a real viciously fallacious argument.If you're only nice because your religion tells you God's gonna be pissed if you're not... then YOU'RE NOT nice, you're just pretending to eat your veggies so God will let you eat dessert, of course, you've actually fed the broccoli to the dog when God wasn't looking (little did you know, the dog is God).
Other Comments by Spinoza
31. Comment #32351 by DavidMarsh on April 16, 2007 at 11:30 pm
Andrew Brown> Just off the top of my head Bob Geldof springs to mind. Can anyone think of any more?Not exactly what you are looking for as it is more science orientated than humanitarian, but still pretty good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU
Other Comments by DavidMarsh
32. Comment #32352 by lpetrich on April 16, 2007 at 11:30 pm
In the ethnicity-longevity sweepstakes, the Greeks and Chinese beat out the Jews. Back in 1200 BCE, while Pharaoh Merneptah was bragging that "Israel is destroyed, it has no seed", Mycenaean Greeks were busily writing palace bookkeeping records on their clay tablets and Shang Dynasty Chinese were busily writing on their oracle bones.So should we worship Zeus or the Yellow Emperor?
Other Comments by lpetrich
33. Comment #32353 by Spinoza on April 16, 2007 at 11:35 pm
The COMMENTS on the actual USAToday website are insane... I reported the top one as hate speech! AHAHAHA Other Comments by Spinoza
34. Comment #32354 by moopet on April 16, 2007 at 11:46 pm
"history reveals the unmistakable footprints of something greater than man"...
Is this guy after Bigfoot?
Other Comments by moopet
35. Comment #32356 by Spinoza on April 17, 2007 at 12:00 am
To be fair, that's probably the least stupid thing he said... The great Leibniz thought the argument from design was pretty good... obviously for much more complicated reasons... and he was a genius AND an uber-Christian... of course... the argument from design isn't very good. Leibniz probably wouldn't have believed it today... he was bordering on Spinozism at the time anyway... Other Comments by Spinoza
36. Comment #32357 by denoir on April 17, 2007 at 12:01 am
Oh come on people - this has to be a joke. I mean look at these paragraphs:In the USA the most science-oriented society in history Christian bookstores, radio stations and TV programming proliferate. It seems as though a hunger for the Creator is imprinted on the human heart.
What would a world without God look like? Well, for one, morality becomes, if not impossible, exceedingly difficult. "Thou shalt not kill" loses much of its force when reduced from commandment to a suggestion. How inspiring can it be to wake in the morning, look in the mirror, and see an accident of evolutionary history the end product of the random collision of molecules?
Expressing your pride in science only to declare that you are a creationist?
Jews introduced the world to monotheism. [snip] Is it a coincidence that this tiny, originally nomadic people generated the ideas that shaped the Western world, including equality, human rights and a responsibility to our fellow man?
Judaism, human rights and equality in the same sentence? I mean - come on!
I'll have to refer to the satirical design theory: This article is too packed with irony to have come into existence by the random thoughts of an idiot.
Other Comments by denoir
37. Comment #32361 by ao9news on April 17, 2007 at 12:20 am
Half a world away, America has the highest weekly church attendance in the industrialized world, notwithstanding attacks on faith from Hollywood, academia and a judiciary seemingly intent on purging religious symbols from public spaces.
Hell yeah Bubba! Those damm 'cademics and smart-pants judgies are such a threat to us with them attacks on good, nice, church-goin', God-fearin' people. Hollywood is gay.
Them knowledge and reason are such angry bitches!
In the USA the most science-oriented society in history
Hmmm. Hmmmmm. Hhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Yeah... I think I'm OK. I think he said exactly that. I wonder how he would spin that comment. They use cellphones a lot? They buy plasma TVs? They put someone on the moon?
I wonder if this dumbass notices ALL these things have their roots on the kind of thinking he's attacking. Using science and knowing about it are so different things.
I always say that creationists (that goes for ID'ers) are hypocrites when they use their PCs and cellphones and watch satellite TV. Don't they know that the very scientific laws and theories (or "just theories", as they would put them) that allow them to do so perfectly agree and intermingle with other theories that say the universe is more than just thousands of years old? Moot point, I guess.
Other Comments by ao9news
38. Comment #32362 by Corylus on April 17, 2007 at 12:24 am
"What would a world with God look like?" Umm.. pretty much like this one actually.I agree with Spinoza here, these people would do well to read some philosophy.
This brings me to another point. I am noticing when these people list the so called "atheist tracts" they have a tendency to miss out dear old Dennett.
Is it because they do not bother to read him? Possible. Or is it a tactical decision because he is harder to misrepresent? I have my suspicions.
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39. Comment #32363 by AdrianB on April 17, 2007 at 12:26 am
Oh dear, his local bookstore has 5 books on atheism.He should go and count the books on religion, and then add to that the books on angels and spirituality.
Should make him feel all fuzzy and warm inside again.
Other Comments by AdrianB
40. Comment #32365 by alfonso on April 17, 2007 at 12:32 am
"humility is itself a religious concept"First: no
Second: we are the chosen ones by the creator... Is that humility?
For crying out loud!!!!!
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41. Comment #32369 by Underworld on April 17, 2007 at 12:42 am
This article is so shallow and unoriginal that I imagine most people here will have been able to refute each banal argument as they read it! Other Comments by Underworld
42. Comment #32370 by infidel_michael on April 17, 2007 at 12:46 am
The books referenced above assert that the debate is over and that atheism has wonNo, the debate won't stop until:
1. God reveals himself unambiguously to whole humankind and says clearly what he wants from/with us
or
2. Theists stop pretending that they know the answers to deepest philosophical questions
Other Comments by infidel_michael
43. Comment #32371 by Spinoza on April 17, 2007 at 12:49 am
Corylus, about Dennett, the reason they probably avoid him is likely that Dennett went to such great pains to write a book that wasn't antagonistic, and treated the subject fairly and objectively, that most theists probably either didn't realize what sort of book it is (Breaking The Spell I mean), or don't know about it.It is a great book though... philosophically not amazing... even atheist philosophers can find several bones to pick over the methodology... but I don't expect my pop-philosophy to be anything more than what it is. Dennett has contributed so much to academia that he's allowed to write these pop-philosophy books...
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44. Comment #32373 by mfwglatz on April 17, 2007 at 12:59 am
Quote: "How inspiring can it be to wake in the morning, look in the mirror, and see an accident of evolutionary history the end product of the random collision of molecules?" End of quote.Isn΄t that - I quote again - "ego-centered"?
And furthermore it is speciescist, isn΄t it?
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45. Comment #32374 by Veronique on April 17, 2007 at 1:00 am
The following is what I posted to Don Feder at USAtoday.com. No point doing it here, you guys say everything I want to say anyway. So I thought I merely copy this post to him.Comment:
I would like to make a few salient points to your article to redress a few mis-informative statements that you make, quite wilfully, in my opinion.
1. The greatest enemy of belief in a bronze-age myth isn't indifference but 20th and 21st Century scientific findings. The marriage between 21st Century technology and so many differing religious superstitions is untenable (S.Harris). You are merely out of step with the current century.
2. Please do not extrapolate from the particular to the general. It is unseemly in someone who wishes to appear intelligent. CS Lewis, MM O'Hair are two people amongst billions. And Mark Twain was not a believer, so his question still stands. Persistence rules.
3. No one has suggested that religion can be killed by dominant psychopathic individuals with a vested interest in maintaining their own power.
4. The USA is most certainly not the most science-oriented society in history. You have a majority in your polls that think that creationism is real and evolution is bunk. Scientific, you say? Not on your nelly. Certainly not on a per capita basis.
5. A universe that isn't god centred has far more hope of human equity than one that believes that infidels (of any persuasion) should be killed. People can be good and right-minded without religion. Religious texts merely reiterate (via human authors) what we all know to be ethical.
6. Who would want to be led to the Ten Commandments? A jealous, ego-centric and exclusive misogynist? You must be joking, dear sir. You views beggar credibility. All your god says in his precious commandments is that humans have to become inhuman.
7. I have yet to see god's footprint amongst the myriad footprints of fossils found by unwearingly dedicated scientists. Could you please give me a site where these footprints can be seen?
8. You are obviously a Jewish apologist. Why? They were granted tenure over a piece of land in 1948, on the belief of a superstitious real-estate broker. That act has created the longest, enduring internecine war since WWII. Aided and abetted by the USA in the face of world censure.
9. America's trenchant belief in its own dominionism and empire-building will, as with Rome and the British, Spain, France and Germany, be its downfall together with the slide of the US dollar value. The immense debt that the US holds will sound a death knell to the Republic as the middle east starts to defend its oil reserves with the euro.
Dear man, you really need to get a life. Time marches on and you are being left behind the white picket fence mentality of the 1950s.
Cheers
V
Other Comments by Veronique
46. Comment #32378 by Logicel on April 17, 2007 at 1:15 am
But saying the debate is over doesn't make it so._______
And implying that atheists' strong argument against faith based-beliefs is the same as atheists saying that the debate is over does not make the strong atheists' stance go away. The debate is not over because the religious side has not entered into it yet. And Feder's uninspiring, reguritated trite will play its little role in keeping the atheists holding open that debate door. The contradictions of religion and its cobwebby matrix of compelling lies will become more and more commonly accepted and these cobwebs which allow humanity to become entrapped, finally broken for good.
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47. Comment #32383 by Corylus on April 17, 2007 at 1:27 am
Good letter Veronique! Other Comments by Corylus
48. Comment #32385 by Logicel on April 17, 2007 at 1:36 am
I just double posted my comment--trying to get in the habit of double posting. I encourage everyone here that wrote a comment, and the majority of them are excellent, just copy and paste it to the original site. Perhaps edit it a bit for profanity. You need to register at the site to comment, it takes a minute. Other Comments by Logicel
49. Comment #32386 by Magpie on April 17, 2007 at 1:37 am
No, Mr Feder, Judaism didn't introduce the world to monotheism; Persian Zoroastrianism and Egyptian Atenism did. Despite proclaiming yourself the defender of the faith, it appears that you know very little about it. Other Comments by Magpie
50. Comment #32391 by Veronique on April 17, 2007 at 1:46 am
51. Comment #32386 by MagpieDo what I did, post him on the site where his article appeared. We are talking to the choir here. We have to get out there and, I tellyou, it makes us a little more circumspect and confrontational. Good for us!!
Let it roll.
V
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1. Comment #32309 by roach on April 16, 2007 at 8:48 pm
I found this article to be quite enlightening. I didn't know God: The Failed Hypothesis was out.I mean, what's the point of an honest response to this?
Other Comments by roach