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Thursday, April 26, 2007 | Reason : Children and Religion | print version Print | Comments

Document Was Muhammad Epileptic?

by Christopher Hitchens, Slate

Thanks to Richard Prins for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/entry/0/

This week Slate is publishing three excerpts from Christopher Hitchens' new book, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.

Buy 'God is Not Great' by Christopher Hitchens on Amazon.com
fouth musketeer


There is some question as to whether Islam is a separate religion at all. It initially fulfilled a need among Arabs for a distinctive or special creed, and is forever identified with their language and their impressive later conquests, which, while not as striking as those of the young Alexander of Macedonia, certainly conveyed an idea of being backed by a divine will until they petered out at the fringes of the Balkans and the Mediterranean. But Islam when examined is not much more than a rather obvious and ill-arranged set of plagiarisms, helping itself from earlier books and traditions as occasion appeared to require. Thus, far from being "born in the clear light of history," as Ernest Renan so generously phrased it, Islam in its origins is just as shady and approximate as those from which it took its borrowings. It makes immense claims for itself, invokes prostrate submission or "surrender" as a maxim to its adherents, and demands deference and respect from nonbelievers into the bargain. There is nothing—absolutely nothing—in its teachings that can even begin to justify such arrogance and presumption.

The prophet died in the year 632 of our own approximate calendar. The first account of his life was set down a full hundred and twenty years later by Ibn Ishaq, whose original was lost and can only be consulted through its reworked form, authored by Ibn Hisham, who died in 834. Adding to this hearsay and obscurity, there is no agreed-upon account of how the Prophet's followers assembled the Koran, or of how his various sayings (some of them written down by secretaries) became codified. And this familiar problem is further complicated—even more than in the Christian case—by the matter of succession. Unlike Jesus, who apparently undertook to return to earth very soon and who (pace the absurd Dan Brown) left no known descendants, Muhammad was a general and a politician and—though unlike Alexander of Macedonia a prolific father—left no instruction as to who was to take up his mantle. Quarrels over the leadership began almost as soon as he died, and so Islam had its first major schism—between the Sunni and the Shia—before it had even established itself as a system. We need take no side in the schism, except to point out that one at least of the schools of interpretation must be quite mistaken. And the initial identification of Islam with an earthly caliphate, made up of disputatious contenders for the said mantle, marked it from the very beginning as man-made.

It is said by some Muslim authorities that during the first caliphate of Abu Bakr, immediately after Muhammad's death, concern arose that his orally transmitted words might be forgotten. So many Muslim soldiers had been killed in battle that the number who had the Koran safely lodged in their memories had become alarmingly small. It was therefore decided to assemble every living witness, together with "pieces of paper, stones, palm leaves, shoulder-blades, ribs and bits of leather" on which sayings had been scribbled, and give them to Zaid ibn Thabit, one of the Prophet's former secretaries, for an authoritative collation. Once this had been done, the believers had something like an authorized version.

If true, this would date the Koran to a time fairly close to Muhammad's own life. But we swiftly discover that there is no certainty or agreement about the truth of the story. Some say that it was Ali—the fourth and not the first caliph, and the founder of Shiism—who had the idea. Many others—the Sunni majority—assert that it was Caliph Uthman, who reigned from 644 to 656, who made the finalized decision. Told by one of his generals that soldiers from different provinces were fighting over discrepant accounts of the Koran, Uthman ordered Zaid ibn Thabit to bring together the various texts, unify them, and have them transcribed into one. When this task was complete, Uthman ordered standard copies to be sent to Kufa, Basra, Damascus, and elsewhere, with a master copy retained in Medina. Uthman thus played the canonical role that had been taken, in the standardization and purging and censorship of the Christian Bible, by Irenaeus and by Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria. The roll was called, and some texts were declared sacred and inerrant while others became "apocryphal." Outdoing Athanasius, Uthman ordered that all earlier and rival editions be destroyed.

Even supposing this version of events to be correct, which would mean that no chance existed for scholars ever to determine or even dispute what really happened in Muhammad's time, Uthman's attempt to abolish disagreement was a vain one. The written Arabic language has two features that make it difficult for an outsider to learn: it uses dots to distinguish consonants like "b" and "t," and in its original form it had no sign or symbol for short vowels, which could be rendered by various dashes or comma-type marks. Vastly different readings even of Uthman's version were enabled by these variations. Arabic script itself was not standardized until the later part of the ninth century, and in the meantime the undotted and oddly voweled Koran was generating wildly different explanations of itself, as it still does. This might not matter in the case of the Iliad, but remember that we are supposed to be talking about the unalterable (and final) word of god. There is obviously a connection between the sheer feebleness of this claim and the absolutely fanatical certainty with which it is advanced. To take one instance that can hardly be called negligible, the Arabic words written on the outside of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem are different from any version that appears in the Koran.

The situation is even more shaky and deplorable when we come to the hadith, or that vast orally generated secondary literature which supposedly conveys the sayings and actions of Muhammad, the tale of the Koran's compilation, and the sayings of "the companions of the Prophet." Each hadith, in order to be considered authentic, must be supported in turn by an isnad, or chain, of supposedly reliable witnesses. Many Muslims allow their attitude to everyday life to be determined by these anecdotes: regarding dogs as unclean, for example, on the sole ground that Muhammad is said to have done so.

As one might expect, the six authorized collections of hadith, which pile hearsay upon hearsay through the unwinding of the long spool of isnads ("A told B, who had it from C, who learned it from D"), were put together centuries after the events they purport to describe. One of the most famous of the six compilers, Bukhari, died 238 years after the death of Muhammad. Bukhari is deemed unusually reliable and honest by Muslims, and seems to have deserved his reputation in that, of the three hundred thousand attestations he accumulated in a lifetime devoted to the project, he ruled that two hundred thousand of them were entirely valueless and unsupported. Further exclusion of dubious traditions and questionable isnads reduced his grand total to ten thousand hadith. You are free to believe, if you so choose, that out of this formless mass of illiterate and half-remembered witnessing the pious Bukhari, more than two centuries later, managed to select only the pure and undefiled ones that would bear examination.

The likelihood that any of this humanly derived rhetoric is "inerrant," let alone "final," is conclusively disproved not just by its innumerable contradictions and incoherencies but by the famous episode of the Koran's alleged "satanic verses," out of which Salman Rushdie was later to make a literary project. On this much-discussed occasion, Muhammad was seeking to conciliate some leading Meccan poly-theists and in due course experienced a "revelation" that allowed them after all to continue worshipping some of the older local deities. It struck him later that this could not be right and that he must have inadvertently been "channeled" by the devil, who for some reason had briefly chosen to relax his habit of combating monotheists on their own ground. (Muhammad believed devoutly not just in the devil himself but in minor desert devils, or djinns, as well.) It was noticed even by some of his wives that the Prophet was capable of having a "revelation" that happened to suit his short-term needs, and he was sometimes teased about it. We are further told—on no authority that need be believed—that when he experienced revelation in public he would sometimes be gripped by pain and experience loud ringing in his ears. Beads of sweat would burst out on him, even on the chilliest of days. Some heartless Christian critics have suggested that he was an epileptic (though they fail to notice the same symptoms in the seizure experienced by Paul on the road to Damascus), but there is no need for us to speculate in this way. It is enough to rephrase David Hume's unavoidable question. Which is more likely—that a man should be used as a transmitter by god to deliver some already existing revelations, or that he should utter some already existing revelations and believe himself to be, or claim to be, ordered by god to do so? As for the pains and the noises in the head, or the sweat, one can only regret the seeming fact that direct communication with god is not an experience of calm, beauty, and lucidity.

ALSO READ: 'Fighting Words: A Wartime Lexicon' (from 'God is Not Great')

AND: 'Mormonism: A Racket Becomes a Religion' (from 'God is Not Great')

Comments 1 - 50 of 200 |

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1. Comment #35170 by tomjlawson on April 26, 2007 at 1:17 pm

 avatarWhere is today's "Baghdad" of scientific and social progress? Geneva? New York? London? Wherever it is, it is not safe from another religious "un-smart" bomb.

Other Comments by tomjlawson

2. Comment #35177 by amazeen on April 26, 2007 at 1:38 pm

 avatarFundamentalist muslims will condemn Hitchins and sentence him to death, it´s just a matter of time.

Other Comments by amazeen

3. Comment #35179 by Friend Giskard on April 26, 2007 at 1:40 pm

 avatarIt is funny that Hitchens, who is careful enough elsewhere to refer to Princess Diana as "the Diana Spencer girl" on the grounds that he does not recognize the claims of the House of Windsor, has no qualms about conceding to Muhammad title of "Prophet", and is even well-disposed enough to give him a capital P.

(But, reading on, I see that he at least puts "revelation" in quotation marks. Good.)

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

4. Comment #35183 by Fire1974 on April 26, 2007 at 1:55 pm

 avatarIt is truly staggering to me that most Christians I know would agree with every aspect of this excerpt; accept, of course, the few instances where Mr. Hitchens mentions them directly.

Selective application of critical thought is so rampant among fundamentalists. Truly Amazing!!


Other Comments by Fire1974

5. Comment #35188 by Rtambree on April 26, 2007 at 2:08 pm

Will Hitchens go on a book promotion tour through the Middle East?

Other Comments by Rtambree

6. Comment #35189 by GBile on April 26, 2007 at 2:09 pm

Put the thing under the 'Plagiarism scanner' and it will fail miserably.
'Holy books', how silly can you get?

Other Comments by GBile

7. Comment #35191 by Quine on April 26, 2007 at 2:19 pm

 avatarThere is a short two part video from V.S. Ramachandran about the religious experience of temporal epilepsy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z4B5BYbjf8&mode=related&search=

After watching these, the origin of scripture is easy to envision.

Other Comments by Quine

8. Comment #35192 by Aaron SF on April 26, 2007 at 2:19 pm

 avatarSatire.

"Yeah those muslims are as bad as the mormons! Can you believe they all think some guy who claimed god talked to him was right just because he said so!? I mean come on... now back to the book of revelations."

Ok it's not satire, it's stuff people actually say.

Other Comments by Aaron SF

9. Comment #35195 by Vinelectric on April 26, 2007 at 2:29 pm

 avatarAaron

Do you really think that the billion or so strong members of the Islam fail to see your simple logic?

People adhere to the religion partly because of the constant bullying through the threat of punishment. Living in fear is supposed to be a healthy attitude in Islam. You will quickly identify this as brain washing and psychological abuse but unfortunately the religious people are as convinced as you are that your logic is twisted too!

Quite a frustrating situation.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

10. Comment #35196 by Quine on April 26, 2007 at 2:31 pm

 avatarHere is another Ramachandran video on the subject from 'Beyond Belief'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raT2PrTQqS0&mode=related&search=

Other Comments by Quine

11. Comment #35197 by Vinelectric on April 26, 2007 at 2:37 pm

 avatarTo be fair to Islam the man was talking straight out of his arse when he said that the religion has nothing in its teachings to offer humanity. Most religions do. Islam does its fair job of encouraging family values, charity and many other humanist values.

One more thing the Koran does attempt to 'convince' you of its authenticity through the argument from design. The poetry is superb and quite enchanting to an Arabic speaker.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

12. Comment #35203 by etny on April 26, 2007 at 2:48 pm

Ramachandran? Making broad generalizations out of a single case is the opposite of the scientific method. Ramachandran himself is careful not to make that kind of generalization. Not everyone who has seizures of the temporal lobe has a mystical experience, and not every mystical experience involves the temporal lobe (as recent imaging studies with Carmelite nuns have shown). So let's not use science as some use religion.

Other Comments by etny

13. Comment #35206 by Bonzai on April 26, 2007 at 3:02 pm

Comment #35197 by Vinelectric

It is pretty lame for a "revelation" if the only positive things you can say of Islam are platitudes like family values and charity. Most cultures have those ideas without any revelation. On the other hand the Quran also contains a lot of truly horrible ideas, or at least ideas that can be interpreted in a horrible way.

There are marvelous poetry in many ancient writings, it doesn't prove any divine origin even if the Quran is indeed superb poetry, but it certainly doesn't look that superb in translation as it sounds repetitive, stupid and boring. Now I wonder why God would choose to reveal himself in a languange that is so difficult to translate. Even a lowly computer programmer knows the importance of portability.

Despite its claim to universality Islam was and is an Arab religion.It has been a vehicle of Arabic imperialism since its inception and a lot of these features still remain. Muslims are supposed to learn Arabic to read the Quran and adopt an Arabic name. Most idiotic is the belief of some muslims that they must imitate Mohammad in everyway in their daily lives. Everything is very cultural specific. At least the Christians don't say that one cannot get the message of Jesus without learning ancient Greek or Hebrew and even Jerry Fawell doesn't tell his flock to grow a beard and long hair to look like Jesus as depicted in popular iconography. Some muslims actually say that not only can you not get the point if you read the Quran in translation, you may actually get the opposite point. Leaving aside the fact that even Arabic speaking scholars cannot agree on exactly what the Quran says on a lot of issues, the language specificity of the Quran makes it a very poor candidate for divine revelation, unless, well God is a 7th century Arab.

The "prophet" sounds to me was a con artist who happened to be a very skilled politician blessed with a very unsophisticated audience. "Allah" was to Mohammad like Mr. Hat is to Mr. Garrison in South Park(that explains why "Allah" sounded so much like a 7th century Arab man). He would have been laughed off the stage even in ancient Greece for his poor ventriloquist act. If "the prophet" was born today he would probably be a minor cult leader like James Jones or the Rev. Moon.

You have to wonder what kind of a "prophet" would start his preaching career with funds gathered from highway robbery (attacking merchant caravans) His followers were taken for a ride partly because of gullibility, partly because of self interest as they were promised generous booties after each conquest.

Other Comments by Bonzai

14. Comment #35207 by maton100 on April 26, 2007 at 3:09 pm

 avatarAll I know is what O'Lielly told me: Sun go up, sun go down.

Other Comments by maton100

15. Comment #35209 by AnatheistinNigeria on April 26, 2007 at 3:10 pm

I always wonder how a well educated, well read, religious Mulsim would react to an article as this.

Ir seems that the man-made character of the Kuran is impossible not to see.

Other Comments by AnatheistinNigeria

16. Comment #35216 by Friend Giskard on April 26, 2007 at 3:33 pm

 avatarComment #35197 by Vinelectric
Islam does its fair job of encouraging family values, charity and many other humanist values.

Yes, family values like wife beating and polygamy. And where the Qur'an recommends charity, it is only meant to be towards other muslims, and to hell with everybody else. The Qur'an makes it clear that unbelievers are the "vilest of creatures" and to be treated harshly and made to feel their inferiority.

The asinine quote from Vinelectric shows the dangers of learning about islam from muslims themselves, or from non-muslim apologists who have themselves learned it from muslims. All you'll get that way is lies.

Start here,

http://www.islamundressed.com/
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
http://www.jihadwatch.org/

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

17. Comment #35217 by Bonzai on April 26, 2007 at 3:39 pm

Jihadwatch is a hate site populated by rigtwing idiots, gun nuts and Christian fundamentalists. You don't have to make a point against Islam by insinuating every uncivil act of individual muslims is somehow related to Islam. For example, if some Pakistani holds up a bank they would make a huge point as if somehow the guy being a muslim has something to do with it.

There is a big difference between criticizing Islam as a belief system and promoting hate against muslims. Most muslims are just day to day people who muddle through life like most of us. They don't have the ideological consistency of Robert Spencer, who is a Catholic ideologue. They cross the line in advocating mass deportation of muslim immigrants.

Other Comments by Bonzai

18. Comment #35219 by MIND_REBEL on April 26, 2007 at 3:42 pm

 avatarHitchens is correct about Islam and the Middle East.

Other Comments by MIND_REBEL

19. Comment #35220 by Friend Giskard on April 26, 2007 at 3:45 pm

 avatar
They cross the line in adovacting mass deportation.

This is a lie. Bonzai is a liar. He will not be able to supply evidence (URL, please) to support the claim that Robert Spencer advocates mass deportation. Bonzai is a liar.

Also, that swipe about Catholic idealogue is ad hominem.

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

20. Comment #35222 by Bonzai on April 26, 2007 at 3:49 pm

>>This is a lie. Bonzai is a liar.<<

Well anyone who doesn't believe me can take a look himself/herself. This reptilian character "Hugh"(vice President of JW) has been making insinuatiions about deportation and internment on many of his postings. But Spencer himself would deny it when pressed on the point, and then "Hugh" would come along and say something more outrageous and hateful. He is not just some Joe commenter, he is an official of JW.

Why is it ad hominem to point out Spencer's own religious fanaticism? It is not irrelevant to his agenda.

BTW, if you go post there and declare yourself to be an atheist they will be all over you in no time. The comment section there is populated by mostly rightwing fanatics and Christian fundamentalists. If you argue back you will be banned. They are just a bunch of Christian fundies engaging in their little crusade as far as I can tell.

Other Comments by Bonzai

21. Comment #35228 by Vinelectric on April 26, 2007 at 4:03 pm

 avatarBonzai: I agree humanist values don't support claims of divine inspiration. I'm sure I never alluded to that. My point is that it was wrong to say that the religion has nothing to offer. Fact is, like other reilgions (as I've mentioned before you pointed it out) it does. Doesn't mean it's divine but that's besides the point.


AnatheistinNigeria:
You are perfectly right. Especially with constant hammering of ideology from a young age it would be difficult to change your beliefs befcause of some psychological barrier. I'm just wondering what part of my post prompted you to make this specific point?

I said I found the poetry appealing but it is obvious I meant it from the aesthetic point of view. I also said the koran attempts to 'convince' between the inverted quotes so again I can't figure out how exactly I'd come across the way you put it.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

22. Comment #35229 by Vinelectric on April 26, 2007 at 4:10 pm

 avatarFriend Giskard

Asinine remark? Well I have to remind you how easy it is to reciprocate such remarks between any two nomatter who is actually right and who is not. Who are you trying to impress with that? By the way what else did you really expect from a muslim other than apologetics. Are you trying to point out the obvious? But hey I'm trying to be open minded and learn something from the site so let me have a word in or two. Will you? Or should I just obediently shut up and pretend I agree with whatever religious bashing Hitchens feels like muttering every now and then.

There is nowhere in cyberspace you'll find me criticizing RD or Sam Harris as I admire their eloquent reasoning, self integrity and disciplined approach. Hitchen's is a talented piece of shit.


You rightly pointed out polygamy and wife beating and that is indefensible. Full bloody stop! There are ideas in the Koran that just don't fit in the modern world. I won't say nothing more...

But charity restrictions towards unbelievers? Sorry mate but you've made that up...

As for your URLs why not try this for a change

http:// www.islamic-awareness.org

Bigotry gets you nowhere and those sites you suggested are plain crap. I've seen them all. The secular web (www.atheism.org) has better material on Islam.



Other Comments by Vinelectric

23. Comment #35295 by savroD on April 26, 2007 at 7:41 pm

 avatarVinelectric...
To say there is a little good in any religion is like saying there is a clean spot in the toilet I just crapped in.
Also, to characterize Hitchens as, "a talented piece of shit" alongside of respect for RD and SH misses the point. Hitchens expertise is literature, not science; moreover, his method and madness is wonderfully contrarian.

Other Comments by savroD

24. Comment #35344 by Vinelectric on April 26, 2007 at 11:57 pm

 avatarsavroD

I was talking about the other authors' general approach and integrity. These are general principles that apply nomatter what the field of the expertise of the author is. The problem with Hitchens is that he has access to media, print and government so his other views on politics such as his war mongering tendencies ultimately do have a palpable effect on the lives of many that is why I threw in the disrespectful remark.

Your analogy on religon is a bit odd but I have to consede: religion doesn't seem to work. People eventually attain good behaviour by cherry picking the texts or twisting the meaning of the more absurd teachings. But that toilet business is uncalled-for bigotry.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

25. Comment #35354 by GodlessHeathen on April 27, 2007 at 1:21 am

 avatar
People eventually attain good behaviour by cherry picking the texts or twisting the meaning of the more absurd teachings.
I disagree. People's behavior is far more the result of societal pressures, a moral zeitgeist if you will, taught by parents and surrounding adults by example and punishment and reward.

Religion is then made to reflect the zeitgeist - thus all the cherry picking, why modern Christians don't stone their children to death for being snots.

savroD's analogy wasn't about religion so much as it was on the problem of defending religion based on the (in my opinion incorrect) idea it has some good in it. It's a disgusting mess, just because some of the porcelain still has a shiny spot or two doesn't mean it doesn't need cleaning.

Other Comments by GodlessHeathen

26. Comment #35357 by Deoradh on April 27, 2007 at 1:28 am

 avatarI've read Robert Spenser's book "The truth about Muhammad" what he has to say about the history of Islam and Muhammad is very similar to Hitchens. The book falls apart at the end when he gives a summation of what needs to be done about Islam. Given that he is a right wing catholic the rhetoric is not unexpected, but toned down more than I thought it would be. Having said that I would still recommend it as it will probably cover ground that Hitchens does not and Spenser for the most part only uses Islamic sources.

As for the Qur'an, which I've also read recently, it is a joke. Hitchens and Spenser cover it's absurdities very well.

Other Comments by Deoradh

27. Comment #35371 by gcdavis on April 27, 2007 at 2:38 am

 avatarIt takes a book to dis a book!

Isn't it amazing that when it is written down an idea assumes credibility. And if it was written down a long time ago its authenticity is greatly enhanced. Add Holy to the name and bingo it's the word of god.

I wonder is such gems as "World War II Bomber Found on Moon" and "Adolf Hitler Was A Woman" from the 1980's Sunday Sport will be regarded as fact by 2500?

Other Comments by gcdavis

28. Comment #35393 by fonex_86 on April 27, 2007 at 3:54 am

Vinelectric,


There are ideas in the Koran that just don't fit in the modern world.


Some of them don't just not "fit in the modern world", they're plain nuts.


But charity restrictions towards unbelievers? Sorry mate but you've made that up...


Many muslims are know are very charitable -- indeed, were it not for muslims supporting my mother's family, I wouldn't be here now.

The problem, however, lies in their motivation behind their charity. To make a long story short, those muslims eventually showed their true colors when they tried to force my mother and her sister to wear headscarfs and began rambling on about how wonderful it is to be a woman in Islam. Charity indeed.


But that toilet business is uncalled-for bigotry.


I see you have a tad of an affection for the word. You see, the proper word here would probably "insensitive" or "crass". Please stop calling other people bigots, especially when most of their views on Islam can be readily verified by living for a month or two in Islam-infested regions of the world.

I'm telling you, Islam isn't receiving enough of the hatred it truly deserves. Day by day, I'm seeing less and less alternatives to total war against Islam, even those who are "politically correct" would label as "moderate".

If you are interested in the ridiculous, harmful, crass, disgusting, fucked-up opinions and actions taken by these arseholes, I can provide you with a truckload.

Sheesh.

==END RANT==

Other Comments by fonex_86

29. Comment #35490 by Vinelectric on April 27, 2007 at 11:16 am

 avatarFonex_86

I support both the British Heart foundation and the Royal National Institue of the deaf. What true colours do you think I'm waiting to show them?

Ideas in the Koran plain nuts? Maybe, but with your call for total war I think you're crazy too.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

30. Comment #35496 by Vinelectric on April 27, 2007 at 11:28 am

 avatarGodless Heathen,

I don't see why we are in disagreement. It is possible that is these social pressures or some other change in society's understanding and definition of morality that forces religious people to cherry pick their texts and bend the interpretation of their holybooks. My point is that selective application of religious teachings happens all the time as people are at least smart enough to realise that strictly following behaviour prescribed in their holy texts is just no longer acceptable by today's moral standards.

You think the Koran is a joke, a religious person may see that statement as a joke too. It is a completely different mindset and if you look around you will hear of many people being persuaded into converting to Islamic belief while others stop practising the religion. Both may seem to genuinely think they've made the correct logical decision. Humans seem to have this vulnerability that makes it possible to persuade them into completely redefining their perception of what is logical and what is not if you try hard enough.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

31. Comment #35602 by catchy_nick on April 27, 2007 at 7:55 pm

I dont know much about this guy CH. Im under the impression that hes pretty conservative and pro-Bush. Can anyone shed some photons?

Other Comments by catchy_nick

32. Comment #35609 by fonex_86 on April 27, 2007 at 8:32 pm

Vinelectric,


I support both the British Heart foundation and the Royal National Institue of the deaf. What true colours do you think I'm waiting to show them?


What are you trying to say? My mother didn't know of their "true colours" before they showed it, and since I don't know you, how the f*ck am I supposed to know?


Ideas in the Koran plain nuts? Maybe, but with your call for total war I think you're crazy too.


Read my post again. I'd appreciate it if you stop bad-mouthing me like that. Where the hell did I "call" for total war? I was only saying that those numbskulls are really giving us less and less choices. I live in a country with a large muslim population -- in fact, they're the majority -- and I know what they teach their children in their schools, homes, and mosques. They are taught that christians are infidels, that atheists are demonic, and that evolution is a mortal sin. They are taught to purge these things, while their teachers intentionally leave the specific meaning of the word "purge" as vague as possible.

I wouldn't be so crass as to call you crazy, but you do seem pretty bloody ignorant to me.


My point is that selective application of religious teachings happens all the time as people are at least smart enough to realise that strictly following behaviour prescribed in their holy texts is just no longer acceptable by today's moral standards.


So? What are those "smart enough" doing to stop the actions of those who aren't? NOTHING! They even condone it to a degree! I've seen Islam murderers get 10 months in prison, while some other non-muslim gets 5 years for robbery!

Did you know that every Ramadhan here, the local fundies would march around the city and trash any place they deem "immoral"?!? Do you know that when they fast, they force other people to fast as well, or eat in a closed place, where they cannot be seen by the fasting? A gigantic load of dog shit if there ever was one.

Speaking about dogs, these people abhor them -- to them it's a sin to be licked by a dog. WTF?!? I'd rather be licked by a dog than by fucked-up religious fundies!

Dammit!

==END SECOND RANT==

Other Comments by fonex_86

33. Comment #35631 by Vinelectric on April 28, 2007 at 3:13 am

 avatarfonex_86
Did you not say in your first post:

....Day by day, I'm seeing less and less alternatives to total war against Islam...

Was I making that up? And do you expect me to not question your mental status by calling for total war? I guess you wouldn't because one of the hallmarks of what you suffer from is a total lack of insight and you probably wouldn't appreciate that what you wrote was either silly or plain madness.

You don't like my bad-mouthing? Well in your first post you jumped in (without previous exchange between us) and threatened/promised me a truckload of whatevers. Go and read that post again to figure out why it is only fair of me to give you the mouthful you deserve.

You didn't get my point about charity because you seem so upset you can't really think straight. The point you missed about the charity foundations is that unlike the situation your family faced there is no chance in hell a single individual like me can ever hope to seek influence on huge charity organisations like the two I mentioned. I can't ever say to them one day I want your patients to wear headscarves. So mine is an example where muslims do have your standard moral sense as I can only give the charity for the sake of it.

You seem to live under a fundamentalist regime so why not just get out if you can afford to. There's more to life than working up frustrations about whatever you were moaning about.

By the way I completely lost interest in this discussion so you won't get no more responses from me.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

34. Comment #35652 by fonex_86 on April 28, 2007 at 5:46 am

vinelectric,

Thank you for continuously misreading my posts and showing who among us is the greater asshole.

Other Comments by fonex_86

35. Comment #35737 by Donald on April 28, 2007 at 4:30 pm

re: comment #35216 by Friend Giskard and the comments which followed

I am an occasional visitor to the http://www.jihadwatch.org/ site, and have been for some time. I think Spencer does a useful job of raising awareness.

I agree with posters who said that Spencer is biased and hates Islam. But for me the important issues are whether what is said is true, and not so much the agenda of the person making the statements (except for the purpose of assessing whether the statements are true - there the motivations of the writer should be part of the truth assessment).

I seek the truth. If someone says the Koran says such and such, I go to the Koran and check. If someone says XYZ said such and such on a programme, I view the programme on youtube/whereever and check. Whenever possible, and time permitting, of course.

What I have found is that, as far as I can tell from university internet sources, when Spencer quotes the Koran, he does so accurately and in context. The extremists seem to be people who have read the Koran and take it literally. He is also correct (as far as I can determine) in saying that the main sects of Islam all have a doctrine of believing the Koran to be the literal dictated word of god, and that the main sects of Xianity do not take the bible as literal, but as only partly literal, with parts being allegory, parable, or for other reasons subject to modern-day modification and interpretation.

Yet most muslims are ordinary people (just like us). They try to live their lives without conflict and, just like most Xians, don't actually read and study their holy book independently. Such bible/koran study as ordinary believers do (not much), is mostly attending church/mosque services and listening to a cleric read selected passages.

So, you can take your pick. Spencer thinks Islam is dangerous to humanity. Apologists offer reassuring versions of what the Koran says (I disagree with much of what apologists say - I'm with Spencer on what the Koran actually says) and point to the overwhelming majority of muslims who are peaceful and don't really know or care all the full detail of their holy book says (I think apologists are right about that).

Spencer is a Catholic, so he's not a person I would recommend for ultimate reality. But as far as his views on Islam are concerned I think he is only slightly wide of the mark.

As far as the practical reality of life under Islam is concerned, I tend to think fonex_86 is best placed to tell us.

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36. Comment #36032 by coolwainy on April 30, 2007 at 2:38 am

Yet more proof (as if we needed it) of the fallibility of Islam. Islam was brought into being through Muhammad's desire to unite the Arabic people - and to create a rival religion to Christianty. It was created over 600 years after Jesus lived, and the reports on Jesus which Muhammad received were distorted at best - therefore their misunderstanding of Christianity. Since then, Islam has grown through its use of violence, the fear of punishment and pressure placed on Muslims by their families. So much for the peace and love which Islam preaches.

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37. Comment #63781 by boysetsfire on August 15, 2007 at 10:15 pm

From my understanding, the writings have always referred to non-believers as "ignorant" or as "hypocrites", and that if any non-believer threatens your religion by trying to kill you, or stop you from being a Muslim, then it's justifiable. It does, however say not to be friends or allies with non-believers, and to separate from them.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the Qu'ran might be one of the only religons that actually focuses on "non-believers" directly. However contradicting, there are many passages like the following:

"How to deal with non-believers"

[4:88] Why should you divide yourselves into two groups regarding hypocrites (among you)? GOD is the one who condemned them because of their own behavior. Do you want to guide those who are sent astray by GOD? Whomever GOD sends astray, you can never find a way to guide them.

[4:89] They wish that you disbelieve as they have disbelieved, then you become equal. Do not consider them friends, unless they mobilize along with you in the cause of GOD. If they turn against you, you shall fight them, and you may kill them when you encounter them in war. You shall not accept them as friends, or allies.

[4:90] Exempted are those who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you wishing not to fight you, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you? Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them

[10:99] Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?


On paper, Religion cannot be forced upon you either.

[2:256] Let there be no compulsion in religion

I do realize that like Christianity, non-believers and atheists are seen as immoral. Of course just ike the Bible, Islam claims that unless you are a believer, you will burn in hell. The following suras are referring to non-believers and what is supposed to happen to them in hell.

[18:29] Proclaim: "This is the truth from your Lord," then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve. We have prepared for the transgressors a fire that will completely surround them. When they scream for help, they will be given a liquid like concentrated acid that scalds the faces. What a miserable drink! What a miserable destiny!

[88:21] You shall remind, for your mission is to deliver this reminder.

[88:22] You have no power over them.

---

My question is, what are your thoughts on such verses? I've read a couple of different translations of it.

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38. Comment #64186 by ? on August 18, 2007 at 12:40 pm

 avatarboysetsfire--

You raise an interesting issue.

There are certainly passages like that in the Qu'ran which imply tolerance and throughout history there have been many Muslims who have been guided by them and lived in peace with others. But you must admit that the more violent texts have also had their influence and that it has been quite a bit stronger at many periods in history including our own.

Also, these texts you quote have a disturbing undertone. They are based on a doctrine of predestination and the idea that God is willfully blinding us to the truth of Islam, presumably so he can punish us later.

This is very similar to Calvinism in the Protestant tradition as well as many passages in the Old Testement which say things like "God hardened Pharoh's heart"--in other words manipulated him into sin. Such a view is cruel even if it sometimes can have the effect of getting believers leave other religions alone. I remember reading that non-Christians would at times prefer to be ruled by the (Calvinist-dominated) Dutch Empire than, say the Catholic Portugese or Spaniards because the Calvinist ministers saw their mission as serving an insular elect while the Catholic priesthood was preoccipied with aggressive conversion tactics.

But at the same time, belief in predestination usually leads to intolerance. The unbeliever is not someone like you, only lacking belief for the time being. S/he is utterly and irrevocably rejected by God, while you, the elect are chosen. This can (and often does) lead to other forms of mistreatment even in the absence of violent attempts at --conversion-- per se.

So the Qu'ran's view of unbelievers is split between total hositility and policies which CAN be interpreted as tolerant, but can also go the other way. Hardly a recipe for lasting or consistent success in this area.

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39. Comment #64206 by Donald on August 18, 2007 at 4:19 pm

boysetsfire:
On paper, Religion cannot be forced upon you either.

[2:256] Let there be no compulsion in religion

I do realize that like Christianity, non-believers and atheists are seen as immoral. Of course just ike the Bible, Islam claims that unless you are a believer, you will burn in hell. The following suras are referring to non-believers and what is supposed to happen to them in hell.

[18:29] Proclaim: "This is the truth from your Lord," then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve. We have prepared for the transgressors a fire that will completely surround them. When they scream for help, they will be given a liquid like concentrated acid that scalds the faces. What a miserable drink! What a miserable destiny!
[88:21] You shall remind, for your mission is to deliver this reminder.
[88:22] You have no power over them.

My question is, what are your thoughts on such verses? I've read a couple of different translations of it.

Regarding 2:256, this has to be considered within the chronological order of the Koran. Later verses are different, for example: 9:123 "O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you."

Verse 2:106 introduces the concept of abrogation.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.106
Mohammed, perhaps aware that he is starting to contradict earlier "revelations", announces "Whatever communications we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?"
There is a clear shift of emphasis from the earliest chapters, which are more peaceful (before Mohammed became powerful) into the later ones (which become progressively more draconian and violent).

Since the Koran's suras are not arranged chronologically but according to the lengths of the suras, you should know which are the later ones. The Medina suras, the latest (and most progressively most violent), in chronological order, are suras 2, 98, 64, 62, 8, 47, 3, 61, 57, 4, 65, 59, 33, 63, 24, 58, 22, 48, 66, 60,110, 9, and 5.

I usually go to http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ for an accurate translation of the Koran.

I sometimes go to http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/ when I want a quick reminder of where the controversial verses are. Be warned however, that the translations of the bible and the koran in skepticsannotatedbible are in many places inaccurate. I always go to university sources for a reliable translation.

Regarding the Koran's messages about peace, and charity, of which there are very many, be careful to note that the Koran, when read fully, and in context, is instructing believers to be kind, peaceful and charitable to other believers. The Koran's instructions about unbelievers include:

5:51: "Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them."
28:86: "...never be a helper to the disbelievers."
48:29: "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves."
58:14: "Hast thou not seen those who take for friends a folk with whom Allah is wroth ? They are neither of you nor of them, and they swear a false oath knowingly."

In other words: anyone who is friends with someone who displeases Allah is himself a wrong-doer. Other verses in the Koran make it very clear that disbelievers displease Allah.

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40. Comment #100930 by Mansa musa on December 19, 2007 at 4:47 pm

Response to the laughable claims that Mohammad was epileptic

Caesar Farah suggests that "[t]hese insinuations resulted from the 19th-century infatuation with scientifically superficial theories of medical psychology."[61] Noth, in the Encyclopedia of Islam, states that such accusations were a typical feature of medieval European Christian polemic.[62]

William Montgomery Watt( also disagrees with the epilepsy diagnosis, saying that "there are no real grounds for such a view." Elaborating, he says that "epilepsy leads to physical and mental degeneration, and there are no signs of that in Muhammad." He then goes further and states that Muhammad was psychologically sound in general: "he (Muhammad) was clearly in full possession of his faculties to the very end of his life." Watt concludes by stating "It is incredible that a person subject to epilepsy, or hysteria, or even ungovernable fits of emotion, [b]could have been the active leader of military expeditions, or the cool far-seeing guide of a city-state and a growing religious community; but all this we know Muhammad to have been."[/b] [63]

Gary Miller disputes claims that Muhammad was deluded. He states that if the Qur'an was originated from some psychological problems in Muhammed's mind, there would have been evidence of it in the Qur'an. Miller finds no such evidence, seeing it as a remarkably stable book that doesn't shows any sign of being affected by intense issues going on in Muhammad's mind such as the death of his wife and children and his fear of the initial revelations. "EPILIPSY LEADS TO PHYSICAL AND MENTAL DEGENERATION". Mohammad(pbuh) when he fought in battles he fought he fought in the middle of the enemy. he played with his wives and treated them with kindness and compassion. he looked people directly in the eye when talking to him. and when he spoke sometimes people would faint. his voice was very commanding. people from all over arabia visited him to seek advice. Mohammad was far from epileptic. this false theory is only continuously propped up to "prove" atheism and "disprove" islam. it's a bit of a taqiyya move.

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41. Comment #100937 by Mansa musa on December 19, 2007 at 5:02 pm

If Mohammad(pbuh) was epileptic like you call claimed. he would be more of a leader like nero or caligula. To burst your bubble Mohammad is considered to be the greatest leader that's ever graced the surface of the earth. Nice going in trying to portray the greatest leader that ever lived to be epileptic.

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42. Comment #100938 by Bonzai on December 19, 2007 at 5:06 pm

If Mohammad(pbuh) was epileptic like you call claimed.


No, I don't think he was epileptic, I think he was just plainly and consciously lying, making things up as he went along. What a scoundrel.

There were many Mohammad like figures in history though most of them were not so successful and were subsequently forgotten. Joseph Smith being one, another was Hong, the leader of the Tai Ping rebellion in China around 1860's.

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43. Comment #100941 by Mansa musa on December 19, 2007 at 5:12 pm

Joseph smith was a self proclaimed prophet. Mohammad was not. He rejected it at first and thought he was going insane. he was actually very afraid. he also wouldn't have risked his life if he didn't actually believe that he was called to prophecy

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44. Comment #100942 by Mansa musa on December 19, 2007 at 5:16 pm

did Christopher hitchens the intelligent drunk just call the greatest leader in the history of the world epileptic?

why i think he did

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45. Comment #100943 by Bonzai on December 19, 2007 at 5:17 pm

Mohammad was not. He rejected it at first and thought he was going insane. he was actually very afraid. he also wouldn't have risked his life if he didn't actually believe that he was called to prophecy


How do you know? Because his biographers said he said so! The unwilling or unknowing prophet is a very familiar motif btw.

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46. Comment #100945 by Mansa musa on December 19, 2007 at 5:20 pm

Not really his uncle told him that he should drop the whole thing because the meccans were plotting to kill him and he began to weep and cry and said he had to do it.

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47. Comment #100946 by Mansa musa on December 19, 2007 at 5:22 pm

Because Bonzai joseph smith and all the others were out for money. Mohammad(pbuh) gave every penny he had away and left his daughters broke. he wore plain clothes. his house was very plain. his attitude was more like an ordinary person walking down the street instead of a great statesmen general and king.

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48. Comment #100947 by Bonzai on December 19, 2007 at 5:22 pm

Yeah, how do you know that story? What is the source if the uncle only said that to Mohammad? Obviously he told someone about it later when he became important enough that someone would care to record it.

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49. Comment #100948 by Steve Zara on December 19, 2007 at 5:24 pm

 avatar
To burst your bubble Mohammad is considered to be the greatest leader that's ever graced the surface of the earth.


I haven't heard of this before. Where does this come from?

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50. Comment #100949 by Mansa musa on December 19, 2007 at 5:26 pm

you really think Mohammad would lie? sounds borderline absurd to me

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