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Monday, November 5, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Response to Dinesh D'Souza op-ed

by Kelly O'Connor

Reposted from: The blog of KellyM78

Here's the link to the original article and below is my response. Enjoy.

Anybody who has ever perused the "Religion" section of the local bookstore has undoubtedly seen that the sheer volume of available apologetics material is most certainly not in danger of being over taken by the comparatively miniscule, if even present, section of books on atheism. That notwithstanding, the response from believers to books like Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion or Christopher Hitchens' God Is Not Great has been so vociferous that one would think that it was in imminent peril. As much as I would relish that notion, it is apparent that instead of diminishing, it is in fact increasing--with new names, albeit old arguments.

The newest poster-boy for defenders of Christianity is Dinesh D'Souza. He has written books in response to or publicly debated many of the forerunners of the so-called "New Atheism". His recent op-ed in the USA Today section "On Religion" (Oct 22, 2007) is but a fragment of the kind of nonsense that passes for valid argumentation in the realm of apologetics. While reading it, one must wonder if he is either a blatant liar or simply downright deluded. (Maybe this could be the D'Souza Dilemma: Dishonest or Deluded?)

The fact that anybody with even a shred of logic or knowledge of history would make it past his opening salvo without lighting it on fire is a miracle of its own. Is he a champion of the provocation of hysteria, or does he realize that atheists don't want to remove Christianity from the history of the founding of the country--It was never there! Does he not know that we already live in a secular society--we just want to keep it that way? That all of the values and institutions that he claims are "inextricably tied" to his faith existed before Christianity and were instilled in this country which was explicitly created to not have ties to any particular religion? Somebody should point out to him that it is this type of rhetoric against which we rail.

It is not particularly difficult to portray religion as the thorn in the side of civilization. A cursory glance at world politics will reveal that the impetus for the majority of both current and historical instances of bloodshed, terrorism, and genocide is religion. The fact that the entire basis for belief in any god is faith, the definition of which is the antithesis of reason, manifests itself in the fanaticism of its adherents. Whether you call this invisible and undetectable being Yahweh or Allah is of little consequence--were it not for the unshakable faith of the believers, people would be much less willing to kill or die in order to reap the rewards of the promised afterlife.

This is the fundamental reason why faith is so dangerous. A belief system founded upon faith is untouchable. One cannot reason with that person; in fact, a believer is taught to purposely ignore valid arguments and trained to feel guilty if the uncomfortable sensation of doubt begins to plague them. Mr. D'Souza, in his attempt to exonerate faith, particularly his brand, then ascribes to faith all that we as Americans hold dear. It is a mere ploy to appeal to the emotions of people who value democratic ideals and scientific progress.

His blatantly fallacious anthropocentric argument for the supposed "perfection" of the universe has been exposed by others much more knowledgeable than I in that realm and betrays his presuppositions regarding the order that we observe. It is in fact an observation. As cognizant beings, we like to categorize and quantify that which is taken in by our sensory organs. The universe is just as adept, if not more so, at creating black holes as it is at creating planets that can sustain life. His inference that this necessarily must be from a divine creator is not evidence of that at all, unless his god also enjoys swallowing galaxies into a vacuum from which nothing can escape. (I won't even touch the list of "Christian" scientists, some of whom were forced under penalty of torture and death to swear fealty to their divine lord.)

Concerning democracy, I would like for him to explain how, if Christianity is responsible for democracy, the Ancient Greeks had democratic societies. Why is it that he credits god with the Jeffersonian dictum that "all men are created equal" when Jefferson himself was not a Christian and in fact owned slaves? To them, the "men" were those that the elite decided were "men", and that didn't include blacks, women, or Native Americans. Although this does sound very similar to the type of behavior that the god of Moses, Joshua, or David would endorse, it seems little like the one that D'Souza tries to conflate with democratic ideals.

Finally, the association that he claims between Christianity and human rights is the epitome of absurdity. It would behoove D'Souza to speak to some homosexuals about "the right to marry and form a family". His equality-espousing god speaks of homosexuality as an abomination and punishable by death. His followers, supposedly created in his image, have done more to thwart universal human rights than any other group short of the Third Reich.

D'Souza is right about one thing, though. I will not hesitate to privately and publicly acknowledge the role that Christianity has had in "the things that matter most to us": It has worked it's hardest to obfuscate the truth, subvert scientific advancement, and decimate those who do not allow themselves to be swayed by vapid argumentation and psychological terrorism. Those are the things that matter most to me.

This is the opening piece in a year long series that Kelly of the Rational Response Squad will be writing to address theist talking heads in the media. All articles may be reprinted in any major media publication or any blog. Reprints in blogs must link to source. Reprints in media will be thanked in our book, so please alert Kelly at her email if you repost any story. Media outlets may shorten articles if necessary without removing context. Upon completion, a book and documentary will be made about the year (ending Oct. 31, 2008) and our plight to have dishonest argumentation countered with rational and factual answers. If you would like Kelly to address any major media story from a theist talking head, please post a link to the article in her blog.

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1. Comment #85233 by Janus on November 5, 2007 at 10:32 am

 avatarWell, that was pretty awful.

Other Comments by Janus

2. Comment #85235 by crazy4blues on November 5, 2007 at 10:40 am

 avatarAgain, D'Souza is an American right-wing errand boy, and has latest mission is to trupment right-wing Christianity of the stripe of George Bush. Like Ann Coulter, this latest writing assignment for the Republican Party is to whip up the ire of "Christian" voters so that they can elect republicans. At this point, exploiting this demographic is the only way Republicans can win.

Other Comments by crazy4blues

3. Comment #85239 by Gymnopedie on November 5, 2007 at 10:48 am

Dinesh D'Souza: Dishonest or Deluded?

Probably a good mix of both. His example, as the author points out, of using Thomas Jefferson as the Christian founder of the nation shows a blatant ignorance of American history, not to mention a very sloppy attempt to rewrite American history. He does avoid calling Jefferson a Christian outright, but I think he implies it quite conspicuously. Dishonest? For sure.

Other Comments by Gymnopedie

4. Comment #85241 by savroD on November 5, 2007 at 10:52 am

 avatarD'Souza and all his like-thinking compatriots need a holding pen. Let's give em Texas. There they can outlaw abortion, gays, and Atheism. I think they should agree to have to be called the "Christiliban". I coined that one!

Other Comments by savroD

5. Comment #85242 by Matt7895 on November 5, 2007 at 10:53 am

 avatar"Well, that was pretty awful." wrote Janus.

How so? One only needs to look at the recent debates D'Souza has been a part of to understand where Kelly is coming from here. You don't even need to look at that hive of scum and villainy that is his column in USA Today.

Other Comments by Matt7895

6. Comment #85246 by Janus on November 5, 2007 at 10:59 am

 avatarOh, don't get me wrong, I agree with Kelly. It's just that the article is written amateurishly.

But, well, that's what you expect from the RRS.

Other Comments by Janus

7. Comment #85251 by Nebularry on November 5, 2007 at 11:07 am

I would like to suggest that we christen "D'Souza Dilemma" a bona fide pathology.

Other Comments by Nebularry

8. Comment #85252 by konquererz on November 5, 2007 at 11:12 am

 avatarDinesh D'Souza just irritates the hell out of me! He says things that are patently false and acts like its common knowledge! He says things about current science that is provably false that leads others into the dark ages of thought. He deserves every bad review he gets.

Other Comments by konquererz

9. Comment #85256 by DarwinsPitbull on November 5, 2007 at 11:17 am

Janus,

Whats the point of ridiculing RRS? Every one who tries to help the cause of atheism, should be welcomed and not pushed away. Not every atheist is going be a professor, philosopher or neurologist. They are at least trying to help, even if you think its "amateurishly".

Other Comments by DarwinsPitbull

10. Comment #85258 by Matt7895 on November 5, 2007 at 11:26 am

 avatarI agree with DarwinsPitbull. The RRS have never claimed to be intellectuals in the same category as Dawkins, Harris, Dennett and Hitchens. If you listen to their podcasts you'll see that they put across their side in a colloquial fashion, something quick and easy for the average Joe to understand. I don't mean that in a degrading way, of course. Not everyone is into reading essays and theses whenever they want to hear a side of the argument.

Other Comments by Matt7895

11. Comment #85260 by jimmm33 on November 5, 2007 at 11:31 am

Awful?

I understand what she wrote.

Is a journalism degree required to be an outspoken atheist? We all have a role. Any voice is welcome.

It might be more helpful to offer constructive criticism rather than just stating it's awful. This is the kind of thing theists love. "Oh, even other atheists think it's awful". I can hear them now.

Other Comments by jimmm33

12. Comment #85263 by Janus on November 5, 2007 at 11:36 am

 avatarI'm not one of those atheists who wish that the RRS would vanish because they somehow tarnish the reputation of atheists everywhere. I agree that every little bit helps, and the RRS has helped the cause of atheism more than a little bit. They certainly help it more than I do (or ever will).

The RRS' style is fine for blogs and podcasts, but now it looks like Kelly is hoping to get her stuff published by some papers. If she wants that to happen (and if it happens, if she doesn't want to tarnish our reputation, heh), she has to stop writing as if she were flaming a troll on a forum.

Other Comments by Janus

13. Comment #85268 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 5, 2007 at 11:42 am

While reading it, one must wonder if he is either a blatant liar or simply downright deluded.


I assure you that this isn't an either/or scenario. This, by the way, is the same guy who said, quote

'There has never been any history of Sunni/Shia strife in Iraq before 2003'.

He is also the guy who thinks that the 9/11 jihadists struck because they were outraged by MTV and Britney Spears and so on.

Someone confine this man before it's too late.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

14. Comment #85271 by oxytocin on November 5, 2007 at 11:44 am

 avatarJanus, I was actually rather impressed with Kelly's scholarship, relative to what I had seen from her previously. I agree that the RRS's methods tend to border on "antics", often appearing amateurish and infantile, but I thought that this piece bucked the trend. I agree with those above who promote the wisdom of accepting all sorts of people from various walks of life who promote reason and education. If we look to history, we will find that many successful movements employed varied strategies. The beauty of the non-theistic position is that we can feel free to agree or disagree with any of our brothers and sisters...since there is [hopefully] no faith involved, we need not be unified in the minutiae of our thoughts. Conversely, disparity between beliefs amongst the faithful is an important problem for any religious endeavor.

Other Comments by oxytocin

15. Comment #85282 by ChrisMcL on November 5, 2007 at 12:07 pm

 avatarIt's difficult to criticize a fellow atheist, unless that atheist is criticizing another atheist.

Atheists really need to get over their worship of fellow atheists. Some atheists just have some bad ideas (me?). I admire Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, the folks at RRS, and many other prominent atheists. But being perfect is reserved for imaginary sky-daddy's. Our atheist heroes can be as flawed as anyone. How about if some of us try to curb our knee-jerk reaction of calling into question the integrity of anyone critical of our atheist brothers and sisters.

Other Comments by ChrisMcL

16. Comment #85285 by LoneStarTravis on November 5, 2007 at 12:15 pm

savroD,

Let's not give Texas to these religious crazies.

Other Comments by LoneStarTravis

17. Comment #85289 by rcphelan on November 5, 2007 at 12:24 pm

No, D'Souza is actually brilliant, jumping in to be the most likely one to make money from attacking "the new atheists" (who is not sick to death of that term already?), given his obvious ties to a great publishing agent.

In the Hitchens debate he disdainfully rejected Dawkins with the usual scientists-should-not- comment-on-history reprimand. Then he, incredibly, goes on to use David Hume as his best example that God must exist because nothing about the future can be assumed from past experience, therefore the (possible) existence of miracles must always be conceded, and, with it, the great flaw in the scientific method is exposed. I am sure Hitchens realized he was stuck with a real loony here and just wanted to get away as soon as possible.

Reading D'Souza I cannot assume that my head will necessarily soon explode, but.....BOOM.

Other Comments by rcphelan

18. Comment #85296 by Diacanu on November 5, 2007 at 12:45 pm

 avatarD'souza is gunning to be the male Coulter.

Like we needed the female one in the first place.

Ugh, the horror.

Well, maybe the world would be boring without villains, but damn, I would sure be willing to suffer that boredom for awhile to at least try it out.

Other Comments by Diacanu

19. Comment #85308 by sapient on November 5, 2007 at 1:14 pm

 avatarOxy said: "Janus, I was actually rather impressed with Kelly's scholarship, relative to what I had seen from her previously. I agree that the RRS's methods tend to border on "antics", often appearing amateurish and infantile, but I thought that this piece bucked the trend."

Thanks Oxy for having the decency to see this piece for what it is. We realize that some of our stunts have made it hard for people who quickly judge books by their cover to not understand just how intellectual we can be here at RRS. Our antics in the past have been designed specifically to reach the layman. Major media publications want material that is more scholarly, and so therefore this entire year will be a demonstration in just how scholarly we can be, at least in this one aspect from Kelly.

Look forward to at least one piece per week that will debunk theist talking heads in a scholarly manner. Hopefully 2 per week... time and troll permitting.

Janus, will you be able to keep up the act of posting discouraging comments within seconds of Kelly's posts going on RDF for the next 50+ pieces that will be coming this year? Or will you at some point decide to admit the pieces she will be writing are not even in the realm of amateurish? And would more accurately be described as college level or higher.

For those interested in the fact that Kelly has not yet finished college, keep in mind she held a 4.0 and is half way through a 5 year Masters program in psychology, before having her third child made it too hard to juggle it all. In those 2 years she made honors in both english lit and composition. She plans to return to school soon, will gain easy acceptance in to one of three Ivy League Schools, and will one day hold the credential that will make people who value a piece of paper over actual intelligence, happy.

For more on this issue, see Matthew Chapman's Youtube video about this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dARv4_31krY

Lastly, if anyone would actually like to engage in the discussion of these issues with Kelly, she will entertain comments in her blog on RRS website throughout the year.

Hopefully she will have the opportunity this year to actually write these articles, as opposed to responding to trolls and hate when the stories are posted. I will be trying to respond to some of the criticism off site, while she will (hopefully) only take the time to respond to people in her own blog.

If any of you get behind this project, please feel free to utilize this particular post of mine to answer other trolls in the future, when deconstructive criticism and trollish behavior ensues. Each time we have to respond to a troll takes away from our time to respond to someone of importance... like Dinesh (yes, I know we wish he wasn't important, but he is).

Here is the blog:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/blog/kellym78

Here is the feed:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/blog/428/feed

And you can find a widget for your website that will catalog Kelly's efforts on our myspace page:
http://www.myspace.com/rationalresponse

Other Comments by sapient

20. Comment #85315 by Bonzai on November 5, 2007 at 1:18 pm

Our antics in the past have been designed specifically to reach the layman. Major media publications want material that is more scholarly, and so therefore this entire year will be a demonstration in just how scholarly we can be


So you are operating under the assumption that the layman is stupid? Talk about elitism.

Other Comments by Bonzai

21. Comment #85316 by steve99 on November 5, 2007 at 1:19 pm

 avatarI am not a huge fan of the RSS, but I have to disagree with Janus. This seemed a lucid, well-written and useful article.

Other Comments by steve99

22. Comment #85323 by sapient on November 5, 2007 at 1:38 pm

 avatarThis is the type of stuff I hope the intellectuals here will rip apart so we don't have to...

"Our antics in the past have been designed specifically to reach the layman. Major media publications want material that is more scholarly, and so therefore this entire year will be a demonstration in just how scholarly we can be


FROM BONZAI:
So you are operating under the assumption that the layman is stupid? Talk about elitism. "


STRAWMAN... someone light a match.

Other Comments by sapient

23. Comment #85327 by Janus on November 5, 2007 at 1:44 pm

 avatarLooks like I'm being perceived as the stereotypical RRS hater, which is amusing considering I was among the few people on this website who applauded the RRS for the holy spirit denial thing on Youtube. Well, I guess it's my fault for posting that one-liner.

I do think that Kelly's article reads like a forum post. A good forum post, mind you, and one that I would be proud to be the author of, but it's written in a style that would make me flinch if I was reading it in my local newspaper. The same thing could be said about Sapient's reply to Michael Shermer, if anyone remembers that.

Here are two examples of what I'm talking about:

"While reading it, one must wonder if he is either a blatant liar or simply downright deluded. (Maybe this could be the D'Souza Dilemma: Dishonest or Deluded?)"

This is a childish insult. Yes, you're right, D'Souza is dishonest and deluded, but stating it so bluntly makes you look bad. Most importantly, if you have to insult him in such a way, do it at the end of a paragraph _after_ you've given evidence that he is in fact a deluded liar. It's not something you say in an article's introduction.


"The fact that anybody with even a shred of logic or knowledge of history would make it past his opening salvo without lighting it on fire is a miracle of its own."

First, it's obvious that this sentence is meant to sound clever and witty. It doesn't.
Second, same complaint as above. It makes you sound like you're flaming a troll on a forum. You should explain why it's crap, then say it's crap. Or even better, _imply_ that it's crap. A certain degree of subtlety is a must in professional writing.

Other Comments by Janus

24. Comment #85331 by PrimeNumbers on November 5, 2007 at 1:49 pm

 avatarWhen I read the article I didn't notice that Kelly of RRS had written it, until I reached the negative comments. I felt it was a good commentary, to the point, and it made valid points.

As for style - really it's substance that matters, and that people read it that matter.

We can't all be elquent speakers like Hitchins, but sure as hell can do a better, less annoying job than McGrath, and Kelly certainly does a better job than, and I'd like to say that I'm thinking that I'd like to say, McGrath.

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

25. Comment #85337 by Mr DArcy on November 5, 2007 at 1:58 pm

 avatarBeing a mere peasant, I cannot possibly comment on the style in which other posters phrase their comments. To me, as long as the meaning is clear, then I can make my mind up about something.

I agree with the gist of what O'Connor has said. The man D'Souza is a consumate showman selling snake oil. Maybe he would like to be the next Billy Graham or the like. What the hell. The man believes in miracles, he holds an absurd position and should be ridiculed as such. The scientific method is based on faith according to D'Souza. The bollocks that this man spouts should be carefully collated and used in evidence against him.

Other Comments by Mr DArcy

26. Comment #85338 by BaronOchs on November 5, 2007 at 2:01 pm

 avatarI appreciate the RRS, and I thought this article was allright but *sticks head and neck above parapet* patchy in places. Like:

the entire basis for belief in any god is faith, the definition of which is the antithesis of reason,


That may be right but it begs the question what definition of faith? or who's definition? What about Kant and the moral postulate, an argument for faith that was -I'd say- entirely unconvincing but not antithetical to reason (just pants).

. . manifests itself in the fanaticism of its adherents


Clearly not all adherents, and fanaticism is not logically the outcome of rejecting reason anyhow, it might just make you stupid or ridiculous, but unfanatical.

Whether you call this invisible and undetectable being Yahweh or Allah is of little consequence


I don't get the meaning or purpose of such a statement, of little consequence to whom? Probably not people who actually believe in yahweh or allah?!

Other Comments by BaronOchs

27. Comment #85342 by Janus on November 5, 2007 at 2:12 pm

 avatar
As a retired professional newspaper editor, I am inclined to say that is a bunch of crap.


Okay, a certain degree of subtlety when it comes to insults.

Other Comments by Janus

28. Comment #85351 by Diacanu on November 5, 2007 at 2:29 pm

 avatarDower-

Agreed.
The christians aren't subtle about calling us potential Stalinists, and saying we're going to go to Hell.
*Shrug*

Other Comments by Diacanu

29. Comment #85353 by GoatBoy36 on November 5, 2007 at 2:37 pm

 avatarI enjoyed the article, and thought it was clearly written. As for the suggestion that one must first provide an argument, and only then state one's conclusion; that is to say the author ought to have suggested that DS is deluded or dishonest only at the end of a paragraph (oh come on!) which contained supporting premises - well what can I say? That's a rather childish suggestion. I was discussing this very point with a doctor at my work yesterday, as it happens. And clearly, one can state one's conclusion wherever one wishes - in one's opening sentence, for example. Then spend the rest of one's essay/article supporting it. I can only say to Janus that your suggestion shows who the real "amateur" is around here. It's not Kelly O'Connor.

There's an excellent article elsewhere on this website by Edmund Standing, who shows that people like the Archbishop of Canterbury spend a lot of time using fancy language to (as he puts it) mask their superstitious beliefs in a fog of pseudo-intellectual garbage. But straight talking effectively counters this: just read Standing's run-through of the bible's basic story .. outstanding!

Other Comments by GoatBoy36

30. Comment #85361 by Ducklike on November 5, 2007 at 2:58 pm

 avatarAdmittedly, I haven't read much of her work as yet, but I enjoyed this article. She made her point(s) and tore a strip off of D'souza in the process. The fact she has "put her literary self out there" in the first place, not to mention the stated commitment to do so continuously for a year, shows a lot of courage and passion. Good on ya!

I hope she reads this string with a positive view of taking CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. That is what it is,... right? I'm no grammatical expert, but I'd have to give the benefit of the doubt to those who offer such criticism. If they intent to insult, then let them do a better job of it.

I look forward to reading her future work, applaud her effort, and will cheer on her successes.

Dower - I also agree.

Other Comments by Ducklike

31. Comment #85370 by Corylus on November 5, 2007 at 3:24 pm

 avatarI have to say that I would have found D'Souza's really article hard to respond to, not because I would have nothing to say, but because there is just so much fallacious bollocks in it that it is hard to know where to start. It is a tirade with hardly any discernable structure.

The phrases 'silk purses' and 'sows ears' spring to mind :P I wouldn't have known where to start.

So bloody well done to Kelly for giving such a hard job a good bash. Quite a commitment too, to plan to respond in-depth to a variety of people.

Kelly
Can I might make some constructive general points?? This is meant in a good way – it took me a disgustingly long time to learn to write detailed essays. I can be really thick at times. Total trial and error on my part .

This is how I do it - and I have found it works. Take as little or as much as you want from my comments. We all have our own styles.

1) It is always good to start with completely unemotional and non-partisan exposition. Give a brief overview of what someone has written with a few quotes. This is really important because it:

a) shows that you have read it
b) demonstrates to the reader that you are fair.
c) not all readers will have the intellectual honesty to read the article that you are responding to so you won't lose your readers early on.
d) helps you to work out which points are really awful and which points are just the 'junk DNA' of an essay. (Waits to get flamed by the scientists on here for misusing the term!)

2) Then gently coax your readers towards a viewpoint, maybe express 'surprise' or 'bafflement' at some of the really fuckwitted points – all in calm language. Your reader will supply your answers for you. He feels smart and will thus give you credit in return.

3) A bit more exposition (showing up more idiocy) is needed then. A few mild-mannered jokes at the mid-way point never go amiss. Keep those with short attention spans going.

4) Get serious again, become worried even at what you are reading. Pretend to suddenly 'realise' what you knew all along. That the person you are talking about is a total idiot.

5) End game. Supply the reader with all of the points they were thinking of against the original article. Vindicating how they were thinking. Then finish with one or two killer points that 99% of your readership will not have thought of - preferably a really terrifying consequence of your opponent's line of thought. Your reader will be amazed at both your insight and their own in agreeing with you.

6) Finish with an expression of sadness that this process took you so long so needlessly. Express the hope that this resistance is never repeated.

7) Retire victorious.

Above all, remember it is your readers that you want to win over – not the person you are responding to. Cut out any insults put there just because you hope that one person might be reading – it is not him* you want to snare.

Short arguments are like a quick kiss. Longer essays are a seduction – I like to take my time.

*Urh!! Sudden nasty, nasty mental picture concerning d'Souza . Corylus rushes off for her shower. I didn't mean it that way honest!

Bad. Bad.

Bangs head on wall. Scratches out own eyes :P


Other Comments by Corylus

32. Comment #85374 by v4ri4bl3 on November 5, 2007 at 3:38 pm

I will concede that in light of the unfavorable opinion I have of Kelly, as well as Brian, of RRS, I think this article was pretty well done. It abstains from including the word fuck in every sentence...wait...make that all sentences, in fact, it appears to contain no vulgarity at all. I can say that I am in essentially 100% agreement with this article. It shows of good workmanship. Or is that workwomanship? Bravo.

I would recommend, perhaps, that she include blocked quotes for analysis in future entries. It helps the audience get an idea of specific statements being made that are being evaluated. For instance, take the example where the gentleman discusses Thomas Jefferson and plug a good chunk of it into the narrative. Then break it apart and expose its dishonesty. Also helps to provide support for your own claims using source citations.

I think Kelly can dodge a lot of criticism about her "supposed" lack of education etc., by just referencing some fact based sources and supplying the links as needed. Then if people don't agree with her conclusions they can research it for themselves.

Other Comments by v4ri4bl3

33. Comment #85383 by Frankus1122 on November 5, 2007 at 4:38 pm

 avatarThe article was good for me.
No complaints.
I like Kelly.
(blush)

Other Comments by Frankus1122

34. Comment #85395 by HereticChick on November 5, 2007 at 5:29 pm

 avatarAs a "lay person", I certainly liked her article. Good job Kelly!

Other Comments by HereticChick

35. Comment #85396 by HereticChick on November 5, 2007 at 5:30 pm

 avatarAs a "lay person", I certainly liked her article. Good job Kelly!

Other Comments by HereticChick

36. Comment #85397 by nother person on November 5, 2007 at 5:39 pm

I am in basic agreement with Janus. That's my conclusion stated in the first sentence.

I am not a RSS basher—I haven't a clue who Kelly or Brian are or what 'antics' they've been up to and couldn't care less. The text stands or falls on its own merits.

D'Souza is pathetic. Criticism of this piece does not necessarily imply favor for D'Souza's views. And yes, Kelly gets an 'A' for effort—at least she is responding—good for her!

The problem with the piece (in my opinion) is that it is a long string of assertions that don't amount to much with a few good arguments buried in the middle. The black hole and the democratic Greeks arguments are excellent. The equality and gays argument, though correct, has less punch. The rest pretty much comes down to point of view. Well, it was an op-ed, so maybe I have no right to expect more, but I don't really see the point in the two sides taking turns making unsupported assertions. I can see how this may appeal to 'the common man' in the way that any spectacle appeals. But I can't see it changing any minds.

I am fully aware that the value of these comments is approximately 2 cents. It's just my opinion.

Other Comments by nother person

37. Comment #85400 by flobear on November 5, 2007 at 6:09 pm

 avatarGreat job Kelly.

Keep on doing your thing RRS.

Other Comments by flobear

38. Comment #85403 by Janus on November 5, 2007 at 6:38 pm

 avatarGasp! Have I been called an amateur? Well of course I'm an amateur, much more so than Kelly.

However, Corylus is obviously not. I wish had I read her little guide half a decade ago. Listen to her. :)

Other Comments by Janus

39. Comment #85415 by cyris8400 on November 5, 2007 at 7:20 pm

The author is listed as "Kelly O'Connor". Am I to understand that Kelly has relented in identifying her last name, then?

Other Comments by cyris8400

40. Comment #85425 by okmichigan on November 5, 2007 at 8:29 pm

since the RRS has bent over backward to represent the new media atheists, i will suggest they take the heavy hitters seriously and reconsider what has been a rather embarrassing PR problem from the very beginning.

compare this:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/themes/box_grey/rr_logo.jpg

to this:
http://www.pofci.org/

and tell me you're not contributing to what most of us consider to be a significant problem, especially online. if you want to keep publishing thoughtful responses and move in a positive direction, drop the name ("squad" makes you sound smaller than you are), stop with the plastic guns and wild west imagery (i'm rather fond of the simple and elegant "A", for example), and focus on articles like Kelly's, to which i think we should lend our support when they suit our common cause, regardless of how we feel about the writer's technical skills.

i look forward to the day when i can browse the RRS website, click on "articles and essays", for example, and actually get original articles and essays. if you don't have them or if you're going to repost content from somewhere else, don't hang an amazon.com ad over it to get a pittance in finders fees.

if you want to be taken seriously, you should take a hard look at well-funded, christian websites like http://www.answersingenesis.org/ who understand just how important and useful a tool the internet can be to rally people behind your cause.

the best thing to remember about all of this is that you have much more than a "squad" of literate, web-savvy 20-somethings that would probably be more than happy to help you if you take a deep breath and reconsider what you're doing and where you're going. just a suggestion.

Other Comments by okmichigan

41. Comment #85451 by quill on November 6, 2007 at 12:04 am

 avatarReading anything composed by that man is like stepping into another world and looking back on ours through a distorted lense. I get physically disoriented every time I try to do so. Within a paragraph of the introduction up becomes down, left becomes right, and it's all stated as being such with this kind of blithe, flippant grace that itself would seem surreal even if the statements themselves were correct. It's not simply that his statements are false, it's the sheer regularity with which they are false. His writing almost resembles a hopscotch rhyme to which I find myself wanting to sing along. He takes you dancing from one patently false statement to the next with perfect rhythm and timing, never staying on one any longer than it takes to hop over to the next, and never, not once, slipping up his performance by stepping on a stray crack of truth in between. He is flawlessly, perfectly wrong. It is like an art.

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42. Comment #85455 by Corylus on November 6, 2007 at 12:39 am

 avatarI glad some people liked my little guide.

I have to make it clear that I am not a professional writer. I would hate to seem to be claiming to be what I am not! My essays are geared towards persuading academics and passing exams. (I do have some stuff I would like to submit for general publication – but dammit it needs work)

I am currently having a break from my serial studying to pay back debts – so I would count myself as an amateur too.

My work is not widely read. Umm. That's not strictly true either! There was that letter to the Beano a couple of years back :)

Other Comments by Corylus

43. Comment #85457 by Philip1978 on November 6, 2007 at 12:44 am

 avatarYikes, I leave you guys alone for 24 hours and look what happens!

Stop it you crazy kids, this article was supposed to raise awareness of just how mind bogglingly and irretrievably nasty D'Souza is! The man is the nastiest piece of work I have ever had the misfortune of reading, he is plain evil. Look, he even drove the lovely Corylus to remove her eyes, damn him and his trousers!!

I loved this article, I really did and kudos to Kelly for writing it considering her schedule is as hectic as Brian says it is.

Stop taking things to pieces that shouldn't be, focus on what needs to be attacked, if some feel they could do a better job, go on then, add your arguments to the debate but don't criticise those who are arguing with you in such minute detail! So what if Kelly uses language and syntax that you wouldn't, at least she is doing something
worthwhile.

Just be thankful I didnt write it, then you really would be howling with grief and more eyes may be lost! :)

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

44. Comment #85472 by BT Murtagh on November 6, 2007 at 1:34 am

 avatarI thought Kelly did a fine job. She wrote clearly and engagingly in her own voice. I look forward to seeing the rest of the articles as they appear.

Other Comments by BT Murtagh

45. Comment #85491 by Logicel on November 6, 2007 at 2:35 am

 avatarBT Murtagh wrote: I thought Kelly did a fine job. She wrote clearly and engagingly in her own voice.
_____

Absolutely. And with practice, as she plans to do, she will get better and better.

Other Comments by Logicel

46. Comment #85495 by steve99 on November 6, 2007 at 2:51 am

 avatar
I have to say that I would have found D'Souza's really article hard to respond to, not because I would have nothing to say, but because there is just so much fallacious bollocks in it that it is hard to know where to start.


This is actually quite a problem with some theist articles. They are so way off reality, I find it takes quite a change in mental gear to even take in what they are saying, let alone respond.

Other Comments by steve99

47. Comment #85512 by GoatBoy36 on November 6, 2007 at 3:35 am

 avatarJanus,

Apologies if I was a bit nippy the other night, I was a bit sleep deprived & not exactly at my best: 4 overnight shifts followed by 2 early morning shifts'll do that to you. Well it does it to me anyway.

I take your general point, and agree that if you are going to take on bible thumpers in the media, that you must always be aware of the tactics they employ.

We've all seen the criticism of TGD, the bible thumpers' assertions about the "tone" of RD's writing - as opposed to the content. And I certainly consider Dawkins' writing to be of a pretty bare bones, here are the facts kind of style.

I remember too a recent "debate" which I saw on youtube with that fellow who went on about bananas being designed by god, you know the lad I mean, and two normal people. One of the blokes could hardly bear to look at Mr. Banana Man who used that, & made out that the bloke's inability to listen to Mr. Banana Man's fantastic stories meant somehow that those fabulous tales *were* worthy of serious consideration.

So as I said, I would agree that an approach needs to be used which won't let one's bible thumping opponent criticise one's letters etc on the basis of one's "tone".

You know the're gonna, if you give them half a chance!

Thinking back to reading Robert Pirsig, did he not say at one point that trying to figure out how to write well, one entered a "saragssso sea of stagnated logic" - I think that was in the first book but it's years since I read it, so I could be wrong there. Personally when I was trying to construct decent essays which my lecturers were going to like, I picked up a copy of "Style" by Joseph Williams & found that helpful. If I remember right I couldn't get it in the UK, but that's not a problem nowadays, on to Amazon dot com and away you go.

Anway Janus, as I said I apologise for being a bit nippy, I generally do when I'm sleep-depped, I'm getting far too old to work those night shifts man, I really am.

gb.

Other Comments by GoatBoy36

48. Comment #85534 by GoatBoy36 on November 6, 2007 at 5:19 am

 avatarcrazyoldman,

Amen brother!

And: I remember writing in to my local paper a couple of years ago to criticise the local reverend's column, and boy did that stir up a hornet's nest! If you do what Kelly's doing, then you're opening yourself up to all kinds of potential trouble, so good luck to her I say! Of course we all use different langauge in different contexts, I'll speak a dialect at home, "style-shift" when I go to work, go even more towards "BBC English" if I'm working with a foreign dr, use a more "academic" style of English if I'm writing in to a newspaper or writing an essay that's going to be marked, and so forth. I don't know the RRS at all, but I'm sure they'll write appropriately, depending on the context. For anyone who's interested, Longman's Student Grammar is a descriptive grammar, and shows in some detail how our language differs according to what we're using it for.

And once again, good luck to Kelly and I hope she has some success. I would just say that it might be a good idea to pick your projects carefully, and score a handful of good hits, rather than try to tackle everything that you'd like to - I found that my little letter had a knock-on effect, and you could end up writing a few times to the same place, on the same topic. So your workload could explode, if you're not careful.

gb.

Other Comments by GoatBoy36

49. Comment #85586 by SilentMike on November 6, 2007 at 9:31 am

42. Comment #85403 by Janus

Gasp! Have I been called an amateur? Well of course I'm an amateur, much more so than Kelly.

However, Corylus is obviously not. I wish had I read her little guide half a decade ago. Listen to her. :)


Being the compliant person that I am I quickly tapped the "page-up" button till I reached Corylus' message. The message below is dircted at both of you.


35. Comment #85370 by Corylus

Corylus. As I am always interested in improving my writing skill I was exhilarated when I saw your list of tips. I quickly copied it to a file in my computer, and then proceeded to read it.

I have to say I didn't particularly like your list. In fact I'm afraid I'm going to have to take issue with it.

My problem with the method you propose is simple. I find it to be a recipe for a snide and dishonest article. Now snide I can live with, at times. I'm feeling a bit on the snide side myself at the moment. I would not, however, put a snide attitude on a list of general tips as part of the correct way to write an article.

Dishonesty is a bigger problem. Pretending you don't have an opinion and then sort of "leading" your reader ("making him feel smart" and the like)... I don't know, I just don't like it. All those techniques seem OK on their own and when used in moderation (Though there are many alternatives). But from your description I get a feeling of dishonesty in writing. A lot of it could work if one adopts an ironic/sarcastic style of writing (where sarcasm resides what would usually be seen as dishonesty is permissible), but when writing a serious article I'm afraid it just won't fly.

And BTW -and this is just one person's opinion- I think the article is pretty good. It's good as a blog/forum post (though a bit long) and it's also good as an article. I don't think the two form of writing are unconnected. Yes there are differences but good is good. It isn't perfect, it could be improved, the writing style could use some refining. But I think that, all in all, it's pretty good.

Other Comments by SilentMike

50. Comment #85615 by Conrad on November 6, 2007 at 12:29 pm

I likewise was left wanting more from the article argument and style wise, if of course it was meant to be a scholarly refutation and not simply a blog forum rebuttle. Though I enjoyed it nonetheless. But to simply state that a writer could improve on their presentation and admiting that it read in a lackluster way is in no sense trollish behavior. It's a simple observation and not deserving of the quite over-the-top response from Sapient.

Athiests are not a solidified unit. They will and do disagree about most things. Any article written by an atheist will not be accepted on that fact alone. This fact should not need to be expressed, and we should not respond with flame and bile simply because someone does disagree with any part of an article.

This is puerile that we've even gotten this point and that someone who disliked the presentation of an article should need defending of their ability to do so without inane howling following in their wake.

Frankly, Sapient, if the articles that follow this one are written in the same manner, then yes, Janus and any of likemind are allowed to comment upon what they view as a lackluster presentation. No one doubts Kelly's intelligence and most here support and agree with many of her views, but if someone says that a particular post was weak, siting her credentials is not an answer to such a claim. My advice would be to write a better article.

Other Comments by Conrad
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