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Islam's Silent Moderates
by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, NY Times
Reposted from:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/opinion/07ali.html
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. (Koran 24:2)
IN the last few weeks, in three widely publicized episodes, we have seen Islamic justice enacted in ways that should make Muslim moderates rise up in horror.
A 20-year-old woman from Qatif, Saudi Arabia, reported that she had been abducted by several men and repeatedly raped. But judges found the victim herself to be guilty. Her crime is called "mingling": when she was abducted, she was in a car with a man not related to her by blood or marriage, and in Saudi Arabia, that is illegal. Last month, she was sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes with a bamboo cane.
Two hundred lashes are enough to kill a strong man. Women usually receive no more than 30 lashes at a time, which means that for seven weeks the "girl from Qatif," as she's usually described in news articles, will dread her next session with Islamic justice. When she is released, her life will certainly never return to normal: already there have been reports that her brother has tried to kill her because her "crime" has tarnished her family's honor.
We also saw Islamic justice in action in Sudan, when a 54-year-old British teacher named Gillian Gibbons was sentenced to 15 days in jail before the government pardoned her this week; she could have faced 40 lashes. When she began a reading project with her class involving a teddy bear, Ms. Gibbons suggested the children choose a name for it. They chose Muhammad; she let them do it. This was deemed to be blasphemy.
Then there's Taslima Nasreen, the 45-year-old Bangladeshi writer who bravely defends women's rights in the Muslim world. Forced to flee Bangladesh, she has been living in India. But Muslim groups there want her expelled, and one has offered 500,000 rupees for her head. In August she was assaulted by Muslim militants in Hyderabad, and in recent weeks she has had to leave Calcutta and then Rajasthan. Taslima Nasreen's visa expires next year, and she fears she will not be allowed to live in India again.
It is often said that Islam has been "hijacked" by a small extremist group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims are said to be moderates.
But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no longer be done?
Usually, Muslim groups like the Organization of the Islamic Conference are quick to defend any affront to the image of Islam. The organization, which represents 57 Muslim states, sent four ambassadors to the leader of my political party in the Netherlands asking him to expel me from Parliament after I gave a newspaper interview in 2003 noting that by Western standards some of the Prophet Muhammad's behavior would be unconscionable. A few years later, Muslim ambassadors to Denmark protested the cartoons of Muhammad and demanded that their perpetrators be prosecuted.
But while the incidents in Saudi Arabia, Sudan and India have done more to damage the image of Islamic justice than a dozen cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, the organizations that lined up to protest the hideous Danish offense to Islam are quiet now.
I wish there were more Islamic moderates. For example, I would welcome some guidance from that famous Muslim theologian of moderation, Tariq Ramadan. But when there is true suffering, real cruelty in the name of Islam, we hear, first, denial from all these organizations that are so concerned about Islam's image. We hear that violence is not in the Koran, that Islam means peace, that this is a hijacking by extremists and a smear campaign and so on. But the evidence mounts up.
Islamic justice is a proud institution, one to which more than a billion people subscribe, at least in theory, and in the heart of the Islamic world it is the law of the land. But take a look at the verse above: more compelling even than the order to flog adulterers is the command that the believer show no compassion. It is this order to choose Allah above his sense of conscience and compassion that imprisons the Muslim in a mindset that is archaic and extreme.
If moderate Muslims believe there should be no compassion shown to the girl from Qatif, then what exactly makes them so moderate?
When a "moderate" Muslim's sense of compassion and conscience collides with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion. Unless that happens much more widely, a moderate Islam will remain wishful thinking.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former member of the Dutch Parliament and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is the author of "Infidel."
Donate to the Ayaan Hirsi Ali Security Trust HERE
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/opinion/07ali.html
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. (Koran 24:2)IN the last few weeks, in three widely publicized episodes, we have seen Islamic justice enacted in ways that should make Muslim moderates rise up in horror.
A 20-year-old woman from Qatif, Saudi Arabia, reported that she had been abducted by several men and repeatedly raped. But judges found the victim herself to be guilty. Her crime is called "mingling": when she was abducted, she was in a car with a man not related to her by blood or marriage, and in Saudi Arabia, that is illegal. Last month, she was sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes with a bamboo cane.
Two hundred lashes are enough to kill a strong man. Women usually receive no more than 30 lashes at a time, which means that for seven weeks the "girl from Qatif," as she's usually described in news articles, will dread her next session with Islamic justice. When she is released, her life will certainly never return to normal: already there have been reports that her brother has tried to kill her because her "crime" has tarnished her family's honor.
We also saw Islamic justice in action in Sudan, when a 54-year-old British teacher named Gillian Gibbons was sentenced to 15 days in jail before the government pardoned her this week; she could have faced 40 lashes. When she began a reading project with her class involving a teddy bear, Ms. Gibbons suggested the children choose a name for it. They chose Muhammad; she let them do it. This was deemed to be blasphemy.
Then there's Taslima Nasreen, the 45-year-old Bangladeshi writer who bravely defends women's rights in the Muslim world. Forced to flee Bangladesh, she has been living in India. But Muslim groups there want her expelled, and one has offered 500,000 rupees for her head. In August she was assaulted by Muslim militants in Hyderabad, and in recent weeks she has had to leave Calcutta and then Rajasthan. Taslima Nasreen's visa expires next year, and she fears she will not be allowed to live in India again.
It is often said that Islam has been "hijacked" by a small extremist group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims are said to be moderates.
But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no longer be done?
Usually, Muslim groups like the Organization of the Islamic Conference are quick to defend any affront to the image of Islam. The organization, which represents 57 Muslim states, sent four ambassadors to the leader of my political party in the Netherlands asking him to expel me from Parliament after I gave a newspaper interview in 2003 noting that by Western standards some of the Prophet Muhammad's behavior would be unconscionable. A few years later, Muslim ambassadors to Denmark protested the cartoons of Muhammad and demanded that their perpetrators be prosecuted.
But while the incidents in Saudi Arabia, Sudan and India have done more to damage the image of Islamic justice than a dozen cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, the organizations that lined up to protest the hideous Danish offense to Islam are quiet now.
I wish there were more Islamic moderates. For example, I would welcome some guidance from that famous Muslim theologian of moderation, Tariq Ramadan. But when there is true suffering, real cruelty in the name of Islam, we hear, first, denial from all these organizations that are so concerned about Islam's image. We hear that violence is not in the Koran, that Islam means peace, that this is a hijacking by extremists and a smear campaign and so on. But the evidence mounts up.
Islamic justice is a proud institution, one to which more than a billion people subscribe, at least in theory, and in the heart of the Islamic world it is the law of the land. But take a look at the verse above: more compelling even than the order to flog adulterers is the command that the believer show no compassion. It is this order to choose Allah above his sense of conscience and compassion that imprisons the Muslim in a mindset that is archaic and extreme.
If moderate Muslims believe there should be no compassion shown to the girl from Qatif, then what exactly makes them so moderate?
When a "moderate" Muslim's sense of compassion and conscience collides with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion. Unless that happens much more widely, a moderate Islam will remain wishful thinking.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former member of the Dutch Parliament and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is the author of "Infidel."
Donate to the Ayaan Hirsi Ali Security Trust HERE
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Posted: Friday, December 7, 2007 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 59 | | View Alternate Comment Thread
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #95090 by John Frum on December 7, 2007 at 10:36 am
Plenty of forum members here often speak kindly of these "moderate" Muslims, but I have yet to hear or see one. Perhaps they can shed some light on this? Other Comments by John Frum
3. Comment #95091 by Fanusi Khiyal on December 7, 2007 at 10:40 am
Oh they exist. I spoke to both of them earlier today.Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
4. Comment #95096 by Jack Rawlinson on December 7, 2007 at 10:46 am
If that wasn't a joke, Fanusi, how nice that you spoke to them. Do you think you could do us all a favour and speak to them again, and suggest they start making some noise publicly? That they start protesting in the streets? Writing letters to newspapers? Demanding to appear on TV programs? Because if they don't, we're going to keep giving them well-deserved shit for their craven lack of action. 'kay?
Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson
5. Comment #95102 by dloubet on December 7, 2007 at 10:56 am
That'll look even worse, Jack! Better that there'e no moderate Mulsim marches, than have one with only two participants.At least let us maintain the **illusion** that there's a huge sea of moderates. ;-)
Other Comments by dloubet
6. Comment #95106 by Fanusi Khiyal on December 7, 2007 at 11:04 am
Actually, I was being sarcastic, but you get my point.And this is what I have been saying for so long. "All that is required for Evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Therefore, what evil specialises in is getting good men to do nothing.
This is what I have always claimed about Islam: It isn't that it turns all of them into fanatics. It's that those who are not fanatics have their moral confidence so undercut that they will shut up like clams and say nothing while the fanatics proceed to seize power.
In order to speak out and stake your life on a moral issue, you need to be very, very sure of your own moral correctness. In fact, even to do less than that you need to be very sure. What Islam does is undercut and destroy that capacity even amongst those decent Muslims in the world.
You can't build a case against totalitarianism, and violence from Islam. It just can't be done. But what many millions and hundreds of millions of Muslims need is the language that will allow them to understand the issues and to fight back. That's the language of the Enlightenment, and we have to provide it for them.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
7. Comment #95107 by Mark Till on December 7, 2007 at 11:05 am
As AHA has noted elsewhere, "moderate" really means ignoring certain parts of the belief system - cherry-picking the nice bits. In this sense, religions apparently act like homeopathic remedies - the more diluted they are, the better they are for you. Which says a lot about the original ingredient. I don't need to add what else religion has in common with homeopathy... Other Comments by Mark Till
8. Comment #95124 by GBile on December 7, 2007 at 11:52 am
Fanusi,In discussions about Islam I always argued that the extremist muslims could only be 'stopped' my moderate muslims. In this I assumed that moderate muslims actually existed. Of course various events made me conclude that this group had to be smaller (and smaller ...) than I expected. By now it seems to be an 'empty' set. In your comment (#6) you very clearly explain why this is indeed so.
So it seems there is (almost) no one around to stop extremist Islam. This is a scary thought.
Your solution is to teach to muslims the 'language of enlightenment'. I am all for that. How do we do it? It should be our challenge to find a way achieve this goal.
Other Comments by GBile
9. Comment #95134 by Pilot22A on December 7, 2007 at 12:21 pm
It's hard to be a moderate Muslim (what an oxymoron, or maybe just moron) when one is at once beating and subjugating one's women and decrying the hijacking of Islam.This is just another religion hell-bent on proselyting, by force, anyone who thinks.
Other Comments by Pilot22A
10. Comment #95135 by Fanusi Khiyal on December 7, 2007 at 12:22 pm
GBile,It's important to remember one thing: 'moderate' Muslims are by definition impotent in this struggle. When has any major struggle been won by the forces of moderation?
We teach the language of the Enlightenment by continually, to the full extent of our ability, telling the truth about Islam. About how its fundamental claims are ludicrous, how Muhammad just pulled revelations out of the ait to gratify any whim he wished for. We ask: "How likely is it that an entity that created the whole Universe, in which we are nothing but a speck, sent a special message to excuse an illiterate merchant's bad breath?"
Above all, we make it clear that they are the victims of a vicious fraud, that, if Islam should ever become ascendant, their lives will be wasted for nothing. That they will pass from dictator to theocrat to warlord and back again, and that these will use their lives, and the lives of their friends and families as just so much fodder for whims and fantasies. And all of this will be for naught and nothing.
And it does not have to be this way. Life does not have to be a pointless waste of misery, crawling before some imaginary gargoyle. Life is glorious, and too precious to be wasted out of fear of the twisted fantasies of a seventh century warlord and paedophile.
That's a message that will be listened to.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
11. Comment #95136 by mintcheerios on December 7, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Moderates don't help the cause because they still believe that faith is a virtue. Since they admonish people to respect religious beliefs, they implicitly protect fundamentalists from criticism. To a moderate, it is offensive to point out absurdities of one's religious beliefs while at the same time these very absurd beliefs are what fuel religious fundamentalism. Moderates may not run planes into buildings, but they are still not free of the core problem at hand. The core problem is the acceptance and respect accorded to false beliefs. As a matter of act, moderates are more guilty of this sin than fundies. At least fundamentalists can see that religions other than their own do cause carm. The truth is that some false beliefs are more dangerous than others and it so happens that billions subscribe to some dangerous ones. It is taboo to notice this, especially to the moderate.Also it seems like it's false to believe that moderates are necessarily more likely to deconvert than fundamentalists.
Other Comments by mintcheerios
12. Comment #95145 by JemyM on December 7, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Friendly people who call themselves muslims do exist. It all depends on what kind of society you assimilated into. If you live up in a society controlled by a radical ideology, chances are that you will be loyal to those ideas, so loyal that you are willing to go very far to keep them up. If you bring the same ideas into a place ruled by a liberal government, free speech and secularism, you will interpret them very differently. Islam, like christianity differs plenty depending on region. Other Comments by JemyM
13. Comment #95154 by epeeist on December 7, 2007 at 1:09 pm
On a small scale you might want to read this article - http://www.tamesideadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/1026293_savage_attack_on_boy_by_imamWhile it is a fairly nasty story it does show that there may be a small amount of hope for the future.
There was a letter to the newspaper condemning the attack, but it wasn't by a Muslim.
Other Comments by epeeist
14. Comment #95161 by John Frum on December 7, 2007 at 1:17 pm
JemyM,Islam does not 'differ plenty' enough for me.
Christianity does though.
Other Comments by John Frum
15. Comment #95169 by spikie on December 7, 2007 at 1:42 pm
I know this sounds harsh, but i think that Islam is incomputable with western democracy, and that is why I don't want Turkey to be part of the European Union, EVER.Other Comments by spikie
16. Comment #95188 by 82abhilash on December 7, 2007 at 2:27 pm
I have met a couple of moderate Muslims and they are the most unusual group of Muslims. They do not like to discuss their religion and they do not practice it seriously. Hardly any of them, prayed five times a day.They try to explain away some of the more uncivilized aspects of their religion as part of an old custom, rather than actual tenants of their religion. But they do feel a sense of guilt and inferiority and try to make up for that by justifying the actions of their more fundamentalist peers. The most you can ever expect of them, if they agree with you on such issues is their silence.
Other Comments by 82abhilash
17. Comment #95210 by bcortens on December 7, 2007 at 3:12 pm
To JemyMThe problem is that even in western countries they don't protest the right stuff!
They protest the danish cartoons and threaten violence on film-makers but when some of their own(muslims) actually commit violence on innocents in other countries they don't hold massive protests.
If they were protesting the actions of Saudi-Arabia instead of every perceived insult to islam I might start thinking moderate muslims exist in a good number, until then I will continue to think that most muslims are not moderate, even in the region of western secular democracies.
Other Comments by bcortens
18. Comment #95211 by Lara Avara on December 7, 2007 at 3:15 pm
I am so impressed by this woman's courage and commitment. EVERYONE should be reading her writings. Other Comments by Lara Avara
19. Comment #95212 by Ophelia Benson on December 7, 2007 at 3:15 pm
There is one moderate Muslim who is quite keen to speak out here -http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=287
Gina Khan does speak out, and she's working on getting more people to join her.
Other Comments by Ophelia Benson
20. Comment #95301 by Nathan Lewellen on December 8, 2007 at 12:13 am
I think that Islam as a religion has made one mistake: it grew up in the wrong time.It appears to me that Islam is in the same stage of development as Christianity was back during the Old Testament times. Unfortunately, for Islam, today's world society is, in my opinion, incompatible with it's Old Testament counterpart and thus Islam's current stage of development. Imagine if you will that in today's society, every Christian became fundamentalist and readopted the Old Testament ways of stoning to death anyone who broke any of the Ten Commandments. How much different would it appear compared to today's Islamic fundamentalism?
"They try to explain away some of the more uncivilized aspects of their religion as part of an old custom, rather than actual tenants of their religion." - 82abhilash
How is this any different than todays moderate Christians? Assuming we could go back in time and find that some of the stories of Christian fundamentalism that are told in the Bible were true, do you think that we would find moderate Christians acting in much the same way that moderate Muslims are acting today? I think we would.
Finally the point. What do we do about the monstrosity that is "Islam (or Christianity, for that matter) taken literally"? That would be up to the experts and people with power to decide. I can only throw out a suggestion. Which I admit is a radical and, by sheer magnitude, probably impossible. We must, as an enlightened, reasonable, and critically-thinking group, fight to educate the world's population and, I daresay, indoctrinate children with the free-thinking skills that every human possesses before religion can infect them. It may not be the answer to delivering the entirety of the human race into freedom from religion, but by coming into politics and fighting for secular laws on every part of the globe, it would definately help to curb at least some of today's, and hopefully tomorrow's religious violence.
Other Comments by Nathan Lewellen
21. Comment #95319 by Goldy on December 8, 2007 at 1:56 am
indoctrinate children with the free-thinking skills that every human possesses before religion can infect them.
Methinks the word you want there is "inoculate". If we indoctrinate, we are as bad as them. Anyway, where does one find religion in the womb?
Other Comments by Goldy
22. Comment #95324 by Nathan Lewellen on December 8, 2007 at 2:20 am
I expected some response to the word. As per The New American Webster Handy College Dictionary Third Edition (I know it's a little lacking in the prestige department but for all intensive purposes it works.), the term inoculate means to imbue. Whereas the definition of indoctrinate is to imbue with a particular belief or principle. Either way, I think it can be expected that people like Christians would have found the best terminology for force-feeding information to kids, seeing as how they've been doing it for 2000 years. As I see it, it doesn't matter how you say it, what matters is the principle that they get imbued with. We will be doing well to teach freethinking no matter what you call it.Other Comments by Nathan Lewellen
23. Comment #95341 by Skeptic1972 on December 8, 2007 at 3:40 am
Playing grammar cop for a minute:Nathan, that's "for all INTENTS AND purposes", not "for all intensive purposes". Yes, I made the same mistake myself... just a pet peeve.
Other Comments by Skeptic1972
24. Comment #95368 by Ian H Spedding FCD on December 8, 2007 at 7:15 am
Personally, I would like to commend Ayaan Hirsi Ali for a command of English which puts to shame that of many native speakers of the language.In any community as large and diverse as that of Muslims, there must be many who are not as fanatical as the extremists but, like atheists and agnostics, they may be so widely dispersed that it is difficult for them to organize as a group. For individuals or small groups surrounded by a seething mass of violent fundamentalism, the safest course is to keep their heads down and their mouths shut. The chances that they will rise up en masse against the fundamentalists are negligible.
Other Comments by Ian H Spedding FCD
25. Comment #95370 by lulando on December 8, 2007 at 7:19 am
"We hear that violence is not in the Koran, that Islam means peace, that this is a hijacking by extremists and a smear campaign and so on. But the evidence mounts up."Yes. What a pity. What a shame. Even in circles, where one might expect a differentiated view on the matter - like in Sufi circles - no one will stand up and say: "NO!"
It was in 1995 - well before 911 - when I asked a German Sufi, a follower of a the All-mighty and All-compassionate and All-forgiving, why one should punish a thief by chopping off his hand, what good might there be in this cruel mutilation and so he answered,
"Let's not only look at this world, but also at the next."
I have not met one Muslim who would be prepared to accept a critical view on Islam as many Christians accept on their religion - let alone examine the Q'ran in a up-to-date scientific fashion.
I learned the Beauty of Islam when translating a book on Islamic architecture but I did never ever find that beauty in reality.
It is just the same with communism: the reality never matches the ideal...
Islam has entered it's Dark Age - let's hope for a reformer.
lu :: http://en.lulando.de
Other Comments by lulando
26. Comment #95373 by hmj on December 8, 2007 at 7:31 am
But where are the moderates?Thank you for asking this question.
Other Comments by hmj
27. Comment #95381 by FXR on December 8, 2007 at 8:08 am
In terms of organised religionism the term "moderate" means being:Trapped
Misled
Silenced
Cowering
Asleep
A Part time participant
Powerless
Gutless
Gutted
Sheepish
Neutralised
Cannon Fodder
Guilty by acquiescence
Guilty by association
The extremist's compost
The fanatic's shelter
The lunatic's cloak
Etc, etc.
Take your pick...
Other Comments by FXR
28. Comment #95420 by Mr. Grape on December 8, 2007 at 10:00 am
lulando - "It is just the same with communism: the reality never matches the ideal..."I disagree. The saying, 'communism sounds good on paper...' holds true, but the same can't be said about the "holy" books. :D
Other Comments by Mr. Grape
29. Comment #95506 by Vinelectric on December 8, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Where are the muslim moderates?
I suspect that the answer will fall on deaf ears but the simple explanation is that any call for reformation is likely to be instantly labelled as a political allegiance to the West. A betrayal of sort. The sense of bitterness stemming from the Palestenian refugee problem, Iraq invasion..etc poisons the air and suffocates any attempt to indulge in healthy self criticism.
The curse of blind and irrational nationalism has too much of a grip on the middle east to allow the moderate voices to emerge any time soon.
Don't count on the modeartes at times like these. The only hope for an enlightment is to engender a climate of political stability in the Middle East. I don't know how this will be achieved (continuing American sponsorship of mideast summits always welcome). I suppose that will have something to do with a well planned financial investment in the region. Add to that, well planned interventions, unlike the idiotic involvement of the likes of the Eritreans/Ethiopians in a country that is least likely to appreciate their presence!
Anyways if that succeeds to an extent where the rigorous system of postgraduate scholarships, American/British schools and various forms of benign infiltration in the 70s and 80s then we may be able to restart an educational reformation culminating in an enlightment.
The middle easterns are just too "shut out" from the real world than most Westernes seem to realise. There lies the key to deliverance, I think.
Other Comments by Vinelectric
30. Comment #95578 by Pantore on December 8, 2007 at 4:02 pm
What's moderate about the AEI?They are warmongers that kill or at least support the killing of a lot of people who didn't do anything to them except for sitting on a lot of oil...
And they have no problem protecting an islamic theocracy, maybe a point she wants to look at with her AEI friends.
Other Comments by Pantore
31. Comment #95597 by salanor on December 8, 2007 at 5:01 pm
There is something illogical about all of this. Why talk about Islam at all; why talk about moderates? The worst excesses of religion come out in contexts where atrocities of all kinds are tolerated. It is in countries with already sad human rights records that stupid statements from the Vatican find most purchase. It is not the version of religion – it is the state of the society. Despotic Middle Eastern countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran, where influences of liberal democracy threaten the established power structures, are happy to host extremist religious ideologues because it reinforces their anti-western rhetoric and keeps them in power.Aayan is just plain wrong. Women in Saudi Arabia aren't raped and beaten because of Islam – they are beaten because the government of the country cares less about human rights than power and wealth. And the US is uncritical of Saudi Arabia because of its powerbase there. Why on earth would we be appealing to moderates to save the situation when a) they probably don't have the powerbase to do anything and b) the very definition of "moderate" is politically insipid (which actually makes a lot of liberal democracies stable) and c) there is nothing in their religion which prompts them to be critical – that's exactly the whole point of religion – if they were critical they would not be religious.
Instead, why are we no agitating for severe political and economic sanctions against Saudi Arabia and the removal of an anti-democratic government? Why are we not voting for a President on the premise that they commit to sanctions against anti-democratic regimes. This is actually the road to removing the sort of atrocities Aayan describes; not bleating in the general direction of a bunch of sheep!
When we've all finished being so self-righteous about Islam, let's look at how ethical our investments are and how they prop up regimes that torture girls. Frankly, I'm tired of all the thinly veiled racism that comes with these discussions. Forget talking about religion and start talking about how to attain freedom from poverty for everyone.
Other Comments by salanor
32. Comment #95603 by Farooq on December 8, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Moderates are a rare commodity in Muslim World. And the reasons are exactly the same as they were in the Europe about 600 years ago.Sam Harris puts it nicely in "End of Faith" as:
"The medieval church was quick to observe that the God Book was good enough to suggest a variety of means for eradicating heresy."
I myself find it hard to ignore the fact that Islam is about 600 years younger than christianity and for precisely the same reason is still living in the 14th century from western standards.
I think that reality will eventually come out and many many centuries from now there will be only one religion i.e. "Secular Humanism" and probably only one language i.e. "American English".
Other Comments by Farooq
33. Comment #95612 by John Frum on December 8, 2007 at 7:07 pm
82abhilash - your commennts make sense if you replace the word "moderate" with coward. Other Comments by John Frum
34. Comment #95614 by Zamboro on December 8, 2007 at 7:17 pm
I'm leery of the following bit:"But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no longer be done?"
Not because she's wrong, but because for the sake of Islam's image there have indeed been a few token protests. A drip in the pond compared to the reflexive defense of Islam that is the far more common response, but all it takes is a few such "moderate condemnations" to provide articles that Muslim apologists can link to when you ask where the moderate outrage is. The actual quantity and frequency of moderate outrage doesn't seem to matter to them; so long as it has occurred at least once, they're in the clear.
Other Comments by Zamboro
35. Comment #95615 by John Frum on December 8, 2007 at 7:22 pm
Salanor, I think you are letting your Communist ideals get in the way of the poison of religion - grow up!
Other Comments by John Frum
36. Comment #95661 by Conrad on December 8, 2007 at 11:56 pm
Exactly Ayaan. Exactly.Other Comments by Conrad
37. Comment #95670 by Goldy on December 9, 2007 at 12:22 am
I think that reality will eventually come out and many many centuries from now there will be only one religion i.e. "Secular Humanism" and probably only one language i.e. "American English".
Or a newer version of Mandarin ;-)
Other Comments by Goldy
38. Comment #95690 by j s bach on December 9, 2007 at 1:15 am
Ayaan is absolutely right. We hear over and over in the UK of the "moderate" Moslims in our midst. It is myth. They may not be the ones that light the fuses on the bombs but they condone every vile piece of nonsense in the koran.The day I see TENS OF HUNDREDS of Moslims protesting in Trafalgar against the inhuman practices of islam - then I'll eat my hat and in public too.
Other Comments by j s bach
39. Comment #95694 by dlitt on December 9, 2007 at 1:32 am
In Canada, the CBC has a sit-com called "Little Mosque on the Prairie," where we can watch moderate Muslims weekly. I'm sure my tax dollars contribute to its production as to 'Multiculturalism Canada' who likely endorsed the program. No doubt written to placate the naive Canadian. Other Comments by dlitt
40. Comment #95785 by robotaholic on December 9, 2007 at 7:55 am
I am fearful for Ayaan. I hope nothing happens to her...If it did...what do you think would be the reaction from islam? - ZERO - how about from the western world? - a small band of atheists spearheaded by the "new atheist" movement for like 30 second news blurbs and a book or two...
I hate the situation...
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41. Comment #95792 by SMART on December 9, 2007 at 8:09 am
What a breath of fresh air this woman is! "Moderate" moslems are either cherry picking hypocrites or they are extremists in waiting.. until the time comes when their numbers are such that they can impose their will on the rest of us (http://www.smartsociety.org/religiousschoolschildabuse.html) Thank you Ayaan for being so courageous in speaking the truth.Other Comments by SMART
42. Comment #95891 by Flossie on December 9, 2007 at 12:22 pm
She is a remarkable woman and she is so important as she allows the rest of the thinking secular contingent of society to express what is obvious, Islam is inhumane and primitive at its core, without that contingent having to worry about being perceived as motivated by racism or something similar.Just imagine if this poor woman had led such a tortured life at the hands of Christianity? There would be world outrage, but because Islam is the offending force, condemnation is muted and confined to secular and aetheist sections of society who demand that society be humane. The rest of society across the globe is too timid to offer an opinion for fear of condemnation by the politically correct contingent.
As far as I can see the word "evil" would be highly appropriate to this so called religion which seems to advocate torturing those under its jurisdiction whether willing followers or not. It is the ultimate totalitarian social device where thought crimes easily justify execution.
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43. Comment #95898 by Vinelectric on December 9, 2007 at 12:35 pm
FlossieI think her writings have matured to the point where more people (including practising muslims) are likely to start to pay attention and allow her to exert a much needed influence in the muslim community and the middle east. There were too many unnerving distractions that turned people away from her previous work e.g the outlandish and distastefull "Submission" film and her unfair labelling of muslim immigrants to Western countries as ungrateful and arrogant people who have no respect towards those who are giving them shelter.
That's all changed now and I am hopefull that people will now start to focus more on her criticism of Muhammad's dogma.
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44. Comment #96061 by Eric Blair on December 9, 2007 at 10:49 pm
It seems moderate Muslims groups don't feel the need to publicly distance themselves from every horrible act of other Muslims unless there was already a connection and expectation, as in the Gillian Gibbons case, where they did respond.The lack of response is nothing to gloat over, however, any more than the total absence of Muslims on this site (unless I'm mistaken).
This is a broad social and political problem, and moderate Muslims, or those who have accepted the need for at least some separation between religion and politics, will be crucial to finding a solution that doesn't involve some of the apocalyptic scenarios a couple posting here keep alluding to.
Personally, I would avoid speculating as to why moderate Muslims haven't responded, preferring to allow them an opportunity to tell us.
As far as multiculturalism in Canada goes, it's noteworthy that polls show the more that non-Muslim Canadians have contact with Muslims (moderate or not) the fewer negative views they express.
Direct contact and seeing "the other" as human beings do work toward understanding.
EB
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45. Comment #96145 by Mat on December 10, 2007 at 4:07 am
I completely agree with Ms Ali. If Muslims cannot and should not feel compassion in these circumstances, then they are not and cannot be moderate.And it's worth remembering, that just because some individual Muslims are moderates, doesn't mean that Islam as a whole is or can be moderate.
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46. Comment #96146 by Dutch_labrat on December 10, 2007 at 4:08 am
I must say my respect for this woman is growing. She has made some ill-advised decisions in the past resulting in the problems with the Dutch Immigration service. This should not be used against her when is right though.Having grown up under Islam, as a woman, and having fought her own way out she is a voice to be heeded. I totally agree with this piece!
Go Ayaan!
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47. Comment #96165 by hungarianelephant on December 10, 2007 at 5:14 am
44. Comment #96061 by Eric Blair on December 9, 2007 at 10:49 pmI agree with all of this. Unfortunately, we have been conditioned when we hear this language to assume that everything is the fault of the imperialist Westerner, and if we could only adapt ourselves, everything might get better. This is palpably not the case.
To wit:
- Muslims in the West are not forced to live in communities together, but most choose to do so
- Even in relatively enlightened Western Muslim families, it is often expected that a daughter will not bring a "white boy" home - not my words, but those of several different Muslim women I have known
- Brides are regularly shipped into the UK from Pakistan for an arranged marriage
- In 2006, more books were translated into Spanish than have been translated into Arabic in the whole of history
At some point we have to ask who is failing to engage with whom. Not that I want to suggest that "we" score a perfect 10, but that "we" are at most only half of the problem.
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48. Comment #96176 by brainsys on December 10, 2007 at 5:49 am
I fear Ayaan Hirsi Ali does not look too far for non-extreme Muslims.The Sudan Teddy certainly flushed out a lot in the UK. Members of the MCB who usually equivocate on most dodgy stuff from the Koran came out to a man (no ladies of course) against the exploitation of Islam by the Sudanese Government. Probably because that Government were really persuing other agendas but found it politic to exploit local religious feelings. Something not unique to the Sudan.
I have to admit I have very mixed feelings about Ayaan. She has suffered terribly at the hands of fanatics. The problem is that this often leads understandably to the feelings that these fanatics should be countered at all costs. The costs sometimes include allowing prejudice rather than cool reflective analysis to creep into the perception of the enemy. Which can include people who were not your enemy - till you made them so.
The issue in the UK is that exporting Muslims to a remote part of the universe is not going to happen. Converting many to secularism is about as remote. It is truly a battle for their hearts and minds. The teddy episode showed that in the UK that is far from a lost cause.
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49. Comment #96202 by Jonathan Dore on December 10, 2007 at 6:43 am
brainsys and jupiter5: yes, as jupiter5 mentions, the statements by Inayat Bunglawala of the MCB about the teddy affair were distinctly tepid, saying only that Gillian Gibbons should be freed because it had all been "a misunderstanding". When asked earlier to condemn the punishment against the "girl from Qatif", he explicitly declined to do so because lashing had been used in Mohammed's time, and so had his (at least implicit) approval, so that "when you ask me to condemn lashing, you're asking me to condemn my prophet": a perfect illustration of the mental prison alluded to by AHA at the end of her piece.Other Comments by Jonathan Dore
50. Comment #96249 by brainsys on December 10, 2007 at 8:28 am
Jupiter5 wrote: "You are projecting what you wanted to hear".I projected what I did hear and what I did read. Not complete I admit but not what I was expecting to hear and read - hence my remark. Unlike you, I do not rely on telepathy.
I agree with you that the sudden and unexpected 'moderation' of these people was forced on them having to choose between a rock and a hard place. They are political. They know their position is at risk from hardliners who can usually so easily undermine their support on the street. It was the isolation of these hardliners on the Teddy issue that allowed one, at least, to come out plainly against 'stoning for adultery' as un-Koranic.
A small step? Yep, But do we want them to step back? In the end are we going to have to come to an accommodation with most Muslims in our community? If that means still living in a tolerant community that means driving a hefty wedge between most Muslims and the hardliners.
That tiny step shows how big the problem really is. There is no point in getting rosy spectacled about this. Winning hearts and minds is the hardest battle there is. And it isn't a soft liberal thing. You have to be focussed and and absolutely clear as to what the other side's beliefs and options are. There is, as you demonstrate, too much dodgy mind reading going on.
It is just that some here, and is Ayaan one of them, that do not see an opportunity to grab non-extreme Muslims and present choices that move them towards a more moderate/tolerant stance?
Or do you think the stance of anti-Muslim hardliners is likely to be more successful? And what does their track record look like right now?
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1. Comment #95088 by maton100 on December 7, 2007 at 10:29 am
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