101. Comment #112225 by OrbitalMike on January 16, 2008 at 3:34 pm

Double Bass,

Unfortunately a new amendment to the Constitution could overturn the Establishment Clause spelled out in the First Amendment.

Time to exercise the other half of my dual citizenship?? Anyone need an aerospace engineer?

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102. Comment #112229 by mesomodel on January 16, 2008 at 3:40 pm

Time to exercise the other half of my dual citizenship?? Anyone need an aerospace engineer?

Or a planetary scientist?

As I've stated before, I would have left this theocracy already if I wasn't so entrenched with job and family. Too much inertia to move on now. My little kids have a chance of escaping this nation in decline, though.

I think Kevin Phillips spells it all out pretty well in "American Theocracy".

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103. Comment #112232 by madame_zora on January 16, 2008 at 3:44 pm

Anyone retarded enough to be glibly sniping about Obama being a closet muslim needs a wake-up call! He's the ONLY candidate who isn't a faith head. If it makes you feel good about yourself to spout moronic bullshit, then that's your business, but we here in America HAVE to support someone or we'll end up with the worst of the lot. Here's an intelligent man who supports SCIENCE and we need to get behind him.

Unless of course your real problem is that he's black. Huckabee isn't the only fucktard.

Other Comments by madame_zora

104. Comment #112235 by freethnkr24 on January 16, 2008 at 3:49 pm

If Mike Huckabee is allowed to amend the Constitution, then Richard Dawkins should be allowed to amend the Bible.

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105. Comment #112257 by Dune010 on January 16, 2008 at 4:28 pm

Re: Comment #111913 by YssiBoo

Woden is the name of the version of Odin worshiped in Britain. And the version of Thor worshiped here was called Thunor.

Wednesday is named after Woden, Thursday after Thunor, Friday after Fregg, and Tuesday after Tiw.

Many of these names are also found in place-names across England and Wales.

Try not to correct people if you don't know your stuff. :P


P.S. Huckabee scares me too.

Other Comments by Dune010

106. Comment #112278 by appaZ on January 16, 2008 at 5:13 pm

What do you say when you read stuff like that? And their view on other faiths is just so idiotic. They get more critical than we do. Yet the self deluding nature of religion blinds them to the fact that theirs is no more credible in any sense of the word, or viable as being of any benifit to the survival of our Us and the long suffering wildlife on this planet, whose days, along with ours, are as far as i can see, limited at best.

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107. Comment #112286 by Kergillian on January 16, 2008 at 6:26 pm

I live in Warren Michigan.
:(

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108. Comment #112287 by Radesq on January 16, 2008 at 6:32 pm

mesomodel - They say it is always darkest just before dawn (probably not factually correct) hang in there I think things will get better.

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109. Comment #112304 by dragonfirematrix on January 16, 2008 at 7:50 pm

Huckabee might have the radicalized American religious on his side, but I do not think the radicalization of Christians in America, to which Huckabee's ill-thought statement sings, will play out in votes to overwhelm the vast majority of "reasoning" people in America.

However, that said, I still think it is very prudent for all non-Christian and non-theists to take Huckabee's remarks as a serious and a threatening reminder of what happens when religion controls government.

Thinking is a prerequisite for a president. Huckabee is not thinking, nor is he reasoning. Huckabee is just calling for the "sheeple" to vote for him.

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110. Comment #112324 by AfraidToDie on January 16, 2008 at 8:33 pm

by madame_zora : Anyone retarded enough to be glibly sniping about Obama being a closet muslim needs a wake-up call! He's the ONLY candidate who isn't a faith head.

I don't think any of the remaining top candidates except Huckabee are really "faith heads", it's just that they have to act Christian. Romney is the other potential exception, and he has to stay away from religion because nobody can trust someone who is openly Mormon. But, he hasn't said much about his Mormon faith that I have heard, so as he gets closer to the nomination, I'm listening for some tough questions for him to answer. I'll probably vote democratic, but McCain has a fairly level head for a Republican. If Huckabee gets "in", even us atheists might start praying the checks and balances work (maybe we should start preying).

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111. Comment #112329 by Paine on January 16, 2008 at 9:01 pm

Obama does profess that he is a Christian

I think Obama is a prime candidate for the OUT campaign. I really suspect he's in the closet.
His parents were atheists, and he only joined that ridiculous congregation of his to get some street-cred for his social work.

The OUT campaign could definitely use a high profile politician like him.

Other Comments by Paine

112. Comment #112330 by Elles on January 16, 2008 at 9:12 pm

And so begins my next round of nightmares about him...

Oh dear..

Other Comments by Elles

113. Comment #112337 by righton on January 16, 2008 at 10:34 pm

This should be political suicide. How is saying this not worse than being an atheist candidate. Yet it is not even a big headline, I live in the US and I only saw it on this site.

As far as the rest of them, Clinton or Obama, i dont care as long as its not a republican.

Other Comments by righton

114. Comment #112339 by righton on January 16, 2008 at 10:51 pm

We need more research dollars

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115. Comment #112341 by madame_zora on January 16, 2008 at 11:30 pm

"I think Obama is a prime candidate for the OUT campaign. I really suspect he's in the closet.
His parents were atheists, and he only joined that ridiculous congregation of his to get some street-cred for his social work.

The OUT campaign could definitely use a high profile politician like him."~ paine

I hear ya paine, but I think this would be an inopportune time to ask him. He's our only chance at getting reason into the Whitehouse and there's just too much at stake of we don't. Timing is everything and we could hurt our nation as well as the rest of the world if people saw him right now as someone they couldn't trust. He has the creds, he became a christian a decade before he sought public office. Now is the wrong time to rock the boat, but he IS at least mentioning the non-religious as people who deserve equal rights under the law. Let's not get too greedy.

Other Comments by madame_zora

116. Comment #112344 by dlitt on January 16, 2008 at 11:42 pm

There will be a new ASS for the "Bible Camp" children to kiss.

Other Comments by dlitt

117. Comment #112352 by asupcb on January 17, 2008 at 12:26 am

At least he wasn't governor of your state for 10 years :(

Huckabee doesn't stand a chance. Most people in Arkansas despise him as it is. The Democrats want to face him because he will be an easy target. Even if he somehow did become President which is incredibly unlikely then he still couldn't pass his agenda with a Democratic Congress in control.

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118. Comment #112443 by the_ultimate_samurai on January 17, 2008 at 6:16 am

they behave (or will behave) like bulls in the china shop

actually mythbusters proved that bulls are well behaved in china shops.
dont know if they tested elephants.

as for the article, i didnt realy intend to, but i know for certain now, i am not voting for huckabee.
are there any republicans who are actually in FAVOUR of sepperation of church and state? republican party has become the party of god, for many i think its not even their real belief, there are just millions of idiots who will eat it up and vote for them based on how evangeical they are.

i think this is an evolutionary response, starts with small mentions of the bible, a mention that they are people of faith, this yields more votes from the bible belt, more catch on, the person to make the most claims of faith gets the most, then competition kicks in and you have fights between candidates on who is the most christian, which affect their policy (since policy is selected against based on appeal to populice) so the introduction of faith based policies yield more support from the bible thumpers, and so on and so forth. im not sure if there is an ESS for this...

Other Comments by the_ultimate_samurai

119. Comment #112445 by salgiambruno on January 17, 2008 at 6:35 am

Isn't it about time we stop putting up with this sort of crap???

Where is separation of church and state when we still allow prayer to be recited at city council meetings and have to work in an environments where big signs are allowed to be posted that read "God Bless America" and where even at work you constantly get junk mail from co-workers laced throughout with references to god?

I'm sick of it!

If the better-third of this country's people don't take a stand now - we're all doomed.

Thank GOODNESS for reasoning people . . .

P.S. - Be sure to check out Bad Religion's latest album "New Maps of Hell" - it helps let off some steam!

Other Comments by salgiambruno

120. Comment #112457 by irate_atheist on January 17, 2008 at 7:06 am

114. Comment #112286 by Kergillian -

Fortunately I don't.

:-)

!!!!!

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121. Comment #112465 by panajache69 on January 17, 2008 at 7:44 am

My suggestions to "amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards": (God being the real universe):

-the most adaptable shall inherit the Earth and to hell with the least adaptable.

I think you could dispense with the rest.

Other Comments by panajache69

122. Comment #112495 by Alkal on January 17, 2008 at 10:43 am

Why is he standing for President then? WOuld "God's rule" not invole divine right or some such thing?

Other Comments by Alkal

123. Comment #112500 by rod-the-farmer on January 17, 2008 at 10:58 am

More interesting stuff on what Mr. Huckabee believes

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=27174

How long has it been, anyway, since we had a matriarchal society ? Lately it has always been male-dominated. Maybe only some primitive tribes, or perhaps those in some of the Pacific Islands ?

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

124. Comment #112544 by gtcc on January 17, 2008 at 12:44 pm

I would have thought this news item would appear on RD website:
"Pope cancels trip to Rome university after protests"
SEE HERE:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-01-16-pope-visit_N.htm

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125. Comment #112703 by rustylix on January 17, 2008 at 11:17 pm

So basically he is admitting that his highest priority is to undermine the constitution?

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126. Comment #112716 by AfraidToDie on January 18, 2008 at 1:04 am

by gtcc on January 17, 2008 at 12:44 pm
I would have thought this news item would appear on RD website:
"Pope cancels trip to Rome university after protests"
SEE HERE:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-01-16-pope-visit_N.htm

Very important news! I bet this will get the appropriate attention of this site. I find it interesting that the current pope back in 1990 made such ridiculous comments:

The faculty letter to the university rector, opposing the visit, cited 1990 remarks by the pope, then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, describing the church's trial of Galileo as "rational and just." Thousands of the university's 145,000 students demonstrated and strung up banners reading, "Science is secular" and "No pope."

Of course, the Vatican claimed his quote was taken out of context, and they were made "in the context of a talk on the crisis of confidence in science". How is that taking it out of context? To even have a talk on "the crisis of confidence in science" shows complete ignorance. Perhaps the crisis is that science continues making discoveries that make it more difficult to justify religion (even though there has never been any justification anyway). Make'n me crazy!!

Other Comments by AfraidToDie

127. Comment #112720 by hungarianelephant on January 18, 2008 at 2:01 am

actually mythbusters proved that bulls are well behaved in china shops.
dont know if they tested elephants.

And there's documentary evidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qb9LBRDaIM

Elephants can definitely not be trusted in china shops ;)

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

128. Comment #112826 by Tyler Durden on January 18, 2008 at 6:32 am

Top 10 Moments in Mike Huckabee's Extremism
http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/000854.htm#six

4. Huckabee Undermines the Teaching of Evolution

Mike Huckabee hasn't merely repeatedly proclaimed his ignorance of evolution. During his days as Arkansas Governor, he presided over efforts to undermine the teaching of Darwin's theory in the state's public schools.

Huckabee was one of the three GOP White House hopefuls at a Republican debate in May who raised his hand when asked "who doesn't believe in evolution?" And receiving the endorsements of 60 pastors in Iowa last week, Huckabee reiterated his position that:

"I believe God created the heavens and the Earth. I wasn't there when he did it, so how he did it, I don't know. That's an irrelevant question to ask me - I'm happy to answer what I believe, but what I believe is not what's going to be taught in 50 different states. Education is a state function. The more state it is, and the less federal it is, the better off we are."

But as the Arkansas Times detailed in 2006, then Governor Huckabee similarly claimed not to know that schools in his state were pressuring instructors not to teach evolution in the classroom. In its piece titled "Scientists Discover That Evolution is Missing from Arkansas Classrooms," the paper documented a shocking July 2004 exchange between Huckabee and a pupil on "Arkansans Ask," his regular show on the Arkansas Educational Television Network:

MODERATOR: Schools are dodging Darwinism?

HUCKABEE: "I'm not familiar that they're dodging it. Maybe they are. But I think schools also ought to be fair to all views. Because, frankly, Darwinism is not an established scientific fact. It is a theory of evolution, that's why it's called the theory of evolution. And I think that what I'd be concerned with is that it should be taught as one of the views that's held by people. But it's not the only view that's held. And any time you teach one thing as that it's the only thing, then I think that has a real problem to it."

Oh boy!

"Darwinism is not an established scientific fact."

Huh? The scientific community would disagree with you there Mike!

"It is a theory of evolution, that's why it's called the theory of evolution."

Idiot! Did this guy graduate from college? Yep, it's a theory, just like gravity is a theory - Newton's theory of gravitation. Do you believe in gravity Mike?

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

129. Comment #112829 by Ian Bamlett on January 18, 2008 at 6:39 am

Shariahuckabee law anyone?

Other Comments by Ian Bamlett

130. Comment #112831 by annabanana on January 18, 2008 at 6:42 am

*cries*

I've shed a lot of tears over this election...

Other Comments by annabanana

131. Comment #112832 by Ian Bamlett on January 18, 2008 at 6:48 am

I've shed a lot of tears over this election...

I'd fill the reservoir tanks on those tear ducts Anna; it's going to get brutal before it's all over!

Other Comments by Ian Bamlett

132. Comment #112857 by gr8hands on January 18, 2008 at 7:36 am

To the claim that Obama is not a faith head, he was clear that it was his faith that caused him to be against same-sex marriage, even though in the same breath he claimed to be for total equality. Even when it was pointed out that total equality would mean he should support same-sex marriage, he said he was against it, again, for faith reasons.

Even Clinton, who has been very good to the gay community, used that as her reason for not supporting same-sex marriage (while endorsing everything up to that).

Faith. Not science, not rationality, not equality, not fairness, not common sense, not reasonableness. Faith.

Other Comments by gr8hands

133. Comment #112905 by annabanana on January 18, 2008 at 9:12 am

gr8hands, do you really think they mean it? Or are they just pandering? To me, it seems that both Clinton and Obama are very squeamish when it comes to talking about faith and religion.

Other Comments by annabanana

134. Comment #112985 by quill on January 18, 2008 at 11:04 am

Gr8hands, Obama has written about his religious views in Dreams of My Father, and it doesn't seem that he takes them very seriously at all. He wrote that he became a Christian when he "recognized the capacity of the African-American religious tradition to affect social change". If he actually believed any of it, he would have said he became a Christian when Jesus entered his heart, or when he became convinced that Jesus was the Son of God, or some such. I doubt he believes any of the supernatural underpinnings. He only seems to think of religion as some sort of tradition.

Anyway, what matters most to me in this regard is policy. Though he said he regarded marriage that way, he still voted against the Constitutional marriage amendment, and that's what counts. It doesn't hurt that he's promised to double the Federal government's investment in scientific research, either.

As a side note, has anyone seen that video where Ron Paul denies evolution? I think that should be up here, too, since many independents seem to be flocking to him.

Other Comments by quill

135. Comment #113024 by mcadamsdj on January 18, 2008 at 1:12 pm

2 of my favorite quotes from people at crooksandliars.com about this piece:

1. Jason S, "How about God and the Constitution just leaving each other the fuck alone?"

2. JudyLou, "Let Huckabee go up on a mountain–they have some in Arkansas–with a copule of stone tablets, and wait for God to send down the new, revised U.S. Constitution."

LMAO!!!

Other Comments by mcadamsdj

136. Comment #113031 by Prankster on January 18, 2008 at 1:28 pm

Can someone please explain to me why in America the education system is dead-set against or discourages the talk and theory of evolution-I'm trying to understand the American mindset when it comes to this

What is wrong over there? I can't understand-is the church and state so intertwined that the church has final say on what's taught or do they pressurise schools, colleges into discouraging evolution as a whole?
Can someone let me know as this theme is sort of rearing it's ugly misshapen head over here in the UK in the so-called "faith schools"-maybe it's me and I don't have the brain power to understand (beer and late nights don't help either)please help me.......

Other Comments by Prankster

137. Comment #113038 by mesomodel on January 18, 2008 at 1:41 pm

Can someone please explain to me why in America the education system is dead-set against or discourages the talk and theory of evolution

My experience as a professor at a university that "educated" would-be teachers partially answers this. To start with, a huge percentage of students at the university shouldn't have made it past first grade. They can't write, read, or add. Critical thinking is out of the question. Questions like what color is orange stumped many a student. Others "knew" the answer: red. (No, I'm not joking.) Mind you, this was a fully accredited public university within the California State University system. And you expect them to grasp the concept of evolution? What about the other 80% of the population that couldn't even qualify to get into the University?

The students were the product of social promotion. The pressure to continue the social promotion program is also alive and well at universities. So, you crank out idiots for teachers. Then, they go off to K-12, where they infect students with illogic and irrationality. It doesn't take too long before you have a large percentage of the population that lacks the ability to think critically or logically. This sets up the right environment for the belief in mythology. Granted, this is not the whole problem, but our failing educational system plays a large role.

The only way out of this mess is to educate our way out. It will be a slow process, and we haven't even started. In fact, the educational system is getting worse.

Other Comments by mesomodel

138. Comment #113040 by al-rawandi on January 18, 2008 at 1:45 pm

Prankster,




I don't recall learning evolution in school. My dad taught me about it, and I read up myself.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

139. Comment #113041 by al-rawandi on January 18, 2008 at 1:46 pm

mesomodel,



I went to Berkeley, and I did not find this to be the case, except with athletes. My father taught in the Cal State system (psychology and statistics) and found that many a student was completely incompetent.

What do you teach?

Other Comments by al-rawandi

140. Comment #113044 by Prankster on January 18, 2008 at 1:51 pm

Mesomodel,

Thanks for that-my education stopped at 16 when I took up employment and continued sporadically thru night school and evening classes-I feel a bit better after your posting, the general gist being that, yeah, critical thinking and the basics seem to be beyond some students-obviously educating them out of this will take way too long as most seem thicker than pig-s**t "so lets pump them full of superstition and religious bullshit instead" it's obviously what's happening....truly truly sad and bound to get a lot worse as you say.

Would the expression "Teaching morons to teach morons" sum it up you'd say?

Regards

Other Comments by Prankster

141. Comment #113047 by Ian Bamlett on January 18, 2008 at 1:53 pm

Comment #113038 by mesomodel:

Critical thinking is out of the question

Slightly off topic, but I am looking for a good book on critical thinking. There seem to be a few out there but I am not familiar with any so any recommendations?

I agree with your points anyway Mesomodel. But don't worry there is excellent educational work being done. In China.

Other Comments by Ian Bamlett

142. Comment #113048 by mesomodel on January 18, 2008 at 1:55 pm

al-rawandi,

I went to UCLA. But students at UCLA, Cal, and most UCs are the the top few percent of all students in California. CalStates are the second tier, and it shows.

I taught meteorology. I couldn't stand the daily torture of trying to explain F=ma to students that couldn't add. I gave up and took a soft money position at a non-profit research outfit in Colorado. Best decision I ever made.

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143. Comment #113051 by al-rawandi on January 18, 2008 at 2:00 pm

Prankster,


Let's not go overboard. There are plenty of very intelligent people here in the United States.


Not everyone is thick as pig shit. We make some pretty good weapons.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

144. Comment #113052 by quill on January 18, 2008 at 2:00 pm

That settles it. I'm going to stand on a corner somewhere on my university campus tomorrow and find out what percentage of students here accept evolution, accept global warming, can find the Pacific Ocean on a map, and know the color of an orange. I can't bring myself to believe these horror stories until I've actually tested them myself.

Other Comments by quill

145. Comment #113054 by Prankster on January 18, 2008 at 2:01 pm

Al-rawandi

Sorry, but I was reading the posting from Tyler_Durden above concerning Huckabees comments about evolution and the fact that Tyler was commenting on how Huckabee graduated. It sort of span out of control from there and turned into a rant(a combination of alcohol and lack of sleep). My point being that the US education system (from what I've read on these forums and threads) does seem a little, well, frightened of discussing or teaching evolution. Maybe it's diferent from state to state I don't know, but my question did ask why this fear should be the case

Apologies for any confusion

Other Comments by Prankster

146. Comment #113057 by epeeist on January 18, 2008 at 2:02 pm

Comment #113047 by Ian Bamlett

Slightly off topic, but I am looking for a good book on critical thinking.

You could try "Informal Logic" by Douglas Walton and "Thinking from A to Z" by Nigel Warburton.

Other Comments by epeeist

147. Comment #113059 by mesomodel on January 18, 2008 at 2:04 pm

Would the expression "Teaching morons to teach morons" sum it up you'd say?

Yes. Exactly. Eventually, those morons end up as administrators, school board members, politicians and even presidents. Then, they institute policies that damage and rot the system from the inside out. Once morons start mandating the teaching of irrationality by morons, the game is over. And it is for the U.S. I know its very pessimistic, but I just don't see any hope for a turn around. If things continue in the same direction, there will be a brain drain of intellectuals, engineers and scientists from the U.S. over the next century or so, just as has happened with the decline of virtually every major empire. With manufacturing already gone, that will leave the U.S. with nothing but morons and large piles of bibles.

Other Comments by mesomodel

148. Comment #113060 by al-rawandi on January 18, 2008 at 2:05 pm

Prankster,


It is sad here. But you can go through a university and study English, History, Sociology, Spanish, Economics, Business or any other number of fields and never touch evolution.

The sciences are a different story. I had a professor who spoke 12 languages, was simply brilliant, but didn't accept evolution. It never dealt with his field, and he never had to understand it. So I just left it alone.

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149. Comment #113061 by Ian Bamlett on January 18, 2008 at 2:05 pm

Thanks epeeist, I will check them out.

Other Comments by Ian Bamlett

150. Comment #113062 by Steve Zara on January 18, 2008 at 2:07 pm

With manufacturing already gone, that will leave the U.S. with nothing but morons and large piles of bibles.

And nuclear weapons.

That is my nightmare. JesusLand takes on the world.

Other Comments by Steve Zara