201. Comment #116194 by JuxtaMonkey on January 25, 2008 at 7:32 pm

quill...

I'd love to see those comments

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202. Comment #116195 by Blue Monster 65 on January 25, 2008 at 7:44 pm

Unfortunately, this is EXACTLY the type of garbage my neighbors will stoop to to scare my children into believing their nonsense. They're only nine and five and they've already been shown this sort of thing by their "friends."

Truly sad.

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203. Comment #116199 by BAEOZ on January 25, 2008 at 7:59 pm

I stopped after the first bit (assuming, as there always is, that there were more bits) about going to hell. What if? What if Quetz gets mighty angry with me for making a pot of English breakfast, then not taking the time to drink it. That worries me more about some kid not knowing more about Jebus.



Now all you types who like philosphy lite get over to my http://philosophicalneuron.blogspot.com/2008/01/fork-in-road.html"
to discuss Hume's fork.

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204. Comment #116203 by dragonfirematrix on January 25, 2008 at 8:40 pm

As the preview said: "A warning: It will both anger and sicken you."

You are right. This is horrible!

Assuming Christians actually use these terrorist tactics...I am sure they do... I heard stuff like this ("lake of fire") myself as a child…

...It is the open blatant terrorism of children, a terrorism designed to frighten unsuspecting children to believe in the Christian god or else. Of course, the Islamic do the same.

Hate propaganda like this makes Christians no different from the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Religious cults (*1) of our planet will do anything to force their beliefs on everyone.

The Christians do not frighten me with their terrorism. I am still a Secular Humanist :)

(*1) All religions are cults. It is just that some cults are larger (not better) than other cults.

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205. Comment #116209 by Double Bass Atheist on January 25, 2008 at 8:55 pm

To all,
I am the individual who submitted this heinous example of child abuse. Thank you Professor Dawkins for your comments, as well. I, too, read a lot of the comments at the godtube site. It is truly frightening that most of these people see this as a 'positive' message.

In comment #123 I asked for some help from the posters here about what I should do next? No one answered me. So, I'm asking again… There's a kid in my son's 6th grade class spreading the crap around. Do I just let it go? Should I confront the parents? Do any of you have any other ideas?

I submitted this to RD's website for 2 reasons:
1) So the 'lions of atheism' that frequent these pages can give this video what it deserves!
And…
2) I could use a little help with this matter. I am not really sure what my next course of action should, or even if I should take one.

Opinions???

~Carmine

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

206. Comment #116212 by JuxtaMonkey on January 25, 2008 at 9:20 pm

Double Bass Atheist...

If this is a public school, then religion has no place for public displays of its nature. I feel out of my jurisdiction to give my opinion on the proper action. Parent's get upset when a child tells another child that Santa isn't real, I can only assume that if YOUR child went around telling all the children Jesus kills or is not real, you might receive a few unnerving phone calls. I think you are in a position to make a positive change in a very local sense, but ultimately you, and even worse your child, could suffer unwelcome consequences or prejudices. The nature of the video is heinous, vial, and violent. Perhaps winning that war is easier than the god war...for now anyway. I sincerely hope you find resolve and that you find support, perhaps from other trusted parents that see your point of view...two heads are better than one. It is a wretched piece of work and people have the right to offend...but not in public school ;). I won't pray for you, but I will agree with you!

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207. Comment #116213 by Andr3w on January 25, 2008 at 9:32 pm

More fundamentalist propaganda

God's wrath is Hell.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c7c_1187008542

Let the persecution begin!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=157_1186977274

Darwin's Deadly Legacy - with Ann Coulter
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2D83I9tnHNw



Evil fruits of evolution
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=03b_1186966697

Other Comments by Andr3w

208. Comment #116218 by qphys on January 25, 2008 at 9:49 pm

Ok, seriously, that is just sick.
Also, I just registered on GodTube. Everyone add me (godsrevenge)!! Hahahahahaha...

Other Comments by qphys

209. Comment #116219 by Henwli on January 25, 2008 at 9:54 pm

A letter from beyond in the mail? In the MAIL? Like, stamped and everything?

Elicits a humorous picture of some hellspawn traipsing into a post office.

I was also amused by the wookie sounds in the background. Wookies in hell. Who doesn't want to go there now?

Other Comments by Henwli

210. Comment #116222 by JuxtaMonkey on January 25, 2008 at 9:57 pm

Ok qphys...

I am GodisSatan, coming for ya muhahahaha

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211. Comment #116224 by Diacanu on January 25, 2008 at 9:58 pm

Double Bass Atheist-

Hmm....well, in the short term, how about sending the kid who sent it to your kid videos from GodIsImaginary.com?

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212. Comment #116226 by Radesq on January 25, 2008 at 10:07 pm

Thanks for that Andr3w...good grief! Clearly the next book from Professor Dawkins will have to be The God Derangement. Deluded is to kind a descriptor for the minds that put out this kind of garbage. Whenever I see or read things like this I'm reminded of Bernard Hill's line: "What can men do against such reckless hate?" In the movie The Two Towers.

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213. Comment #116228 by Cartomancer on January 25, 2008 at 10:17 pm

Double Bass Atheist, comment #207-

Good advice is always more difficult to give than ridicule, and though my talents more than encompass the latter I am not so sure they are great enough to encompass the former. Nevertheless, I shall endeavour to help, for what my comments are worth.

I can see your dilemma. I am not sure that confronting the parents is likely to achieve anything if they are similarly skewed in their beliefs, but unless they are really extreme and might retaliate in some way against you or your children I cannot see what harm a firm but polite word would do. They might even be unaware that their child is doing this and perhaps even mortified that he is being so invasive, intolerant and impolite to others - a lot of religious families are nice people who consider this sort of proselytizing extremely distasteful. It really depends on what the parents are like.

What you might want to do is have a word with his teachers though. I'm guessing schools over there like to maintain a mutually supportive learning environment and would find this somewhat upsetting. 11-16 is a very difficult age to teach in my opinion, and I doubt my experiences with teaching older teenagers are worth much here, but were I informed that this was going on I would certainly have raised the issue in class and tried to explain the situation and the need for politeness and mutual respect (which, given my ardent disdain for religious nonsense in all its forms would be something of a trial for me. I can but hope that the teachers there are more stable and balanced). I suspect there are probably school counsellors or some such available if this has affected other students negatively. Again it all depends on the ethics and atmosphere of the school and its community of students.

It seems to be going against the grain to say this, but what is the view of the local church on these matters? If it does support the message of the propaganda then the situation is a bit trickier, but if they are genuinely respectful people and this sort of thing makes them uneasy then having a word in the right ear might make some difference. I hate having to go through religious power structures too, but until the churches are finally torn down or turned into museums it's probably a necessary evil.

Ultimately though, from your point of view, I guess the main thing is that your own child has not been adversely affected and is now aware that these sorts of people are out there. I wonder whether his friends are similarly resilient, since peer pressure is such a concern at that age and if this meme spreads too far he might find himself in the minority. To be honest I would imagine that unless there is some serious indoctrination going on behind the scenes to support the belief that aggressive proselytizing is a good thing then this will burn out like most playground fads.

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214. Comment #116230 by Logician on January 25, 2008 at 10:56 pm

I find it most interesting that this continues the idiotic idea promuglated by religion that one can 'feel', etc, without sensory instruments - i.e. - the body.
When I was in my single digits and first fed this bullshit by my relatives (my parents knew me too well to even try) my response was the same then as it is now: "How is that possible?"
No one then, nor even yet, could give me a satisfactory answer. When I laughed at their explanations, I was told I would burn in agonizing pain forever and ever and ever!
Now keep in mind that I was only six years old! I knew even then that people who believe this shit are idiots and filled with the most disgusting hate.
The only response to them is to challenge EVERY lie in the video and when no explanation is forthcoming, dismiss them loudly, mockingly, and very, very publically.
If you lose a 'friend,' you're much better off, and don't worry about whether you'll 'make any points' for the atheist cause.
When the student is ready, the teacher will be there. The morons making this piece of shit aren't ready and don't deserve your precious time or consideration.

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215. Comment #116231 by JuxtaMonkey on January 25, 2008 at 11:03 pm

I posted my opinions on that evil child-brainwashing video =)on Godtube. Apparently, I live in Haiti and GodisSatan. Really...the Christians I chatted with are unwaveringly moved by this hogwash...and I am painstakingly terrified.

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216. Comment #116232 by JuxtaMonkey on January 25, 2008 at 11:17 pm

No one then, nor even yet, could give me a satisfactory answer. When I laughed at their explanations, I was told I would burn in agonizing pain forever and ever and ever!

It is a last ditch effort to make themselves feel righteous. Hell is their golden ticket/con by which they gain their unquestioning souls for the Lord. The surplus to their cause (for which I remain clueless) keeps on rolling those digits one horror story at a time. What befuddles the be-jesus out me is the common message I receive from such doom sayers isn't that the idea of a holy 'God' moves them but the fear of hell that drives soul-winning. Now...can someone demonstrate to me again, who is Satan?

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217. Comment #116235 by Richard Dawkins on January 25, 2008 at 11:56 pm

In calling attention to the success the "Convert your friends or they'll go to hell" meme is having in propagating itself among its target audience, I did not mean to suggest that we shouldn't propagate the film among a different audience, for a different purpose: ridicule, and replying to Christian apologists who claim that "Nobody nowadays takes hell seriously", "You are completely out of date about religion", "You need to read some theology" etcetera et-tedious-cetera.

I think we should send this film to every bishop and vicar and priest and Christian-apologist parliamentarian and congressman we know. Challenge them to put their own Christian house in order. Make them feel ashamed for their religion.

And my advice to Carmine Bello (Double Bass Atheist) is the same. Send this film to the school chaplain (if there is one: you don't say which part of the world you come from), to the school head teacher, to the local priest, to the school governors, to the local school board (if you have one: again it would help if we knew which country your son's school is in). Stir up outrage in the local community, in the Parent Teachers' Association, get it shown on the news on the local TV station. This film speaks for itself. Spread it around by all means, but among a target audience that will be EMBARRASSED and SHAMED by it.

Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

218. Comment #116244 by quill on January 26, 2008 at 12:46 am

The best thing we can do to defeat tactics such as this is to draw attention to them. If you do bring it up with your local news media, be sure to stress that not only is this a disgusting method of indoctrination, but that some might actually consider it exploitation. Ordinary people generally find the conscription of twelve-year-old children into the role of religious footsoldiers reprehensible, and so framing it in that context--Church Leaders Enlist Children in Propaganda War--might be beneficial to you. Religious people actually do the cause of atheism a huge favor when they indulge in activities like this, because being exposed to such instances of bad behavior on the part of religious authorities only serves to inoculate the population against them in the future.

Other Comments by quill

219. Comment #116253 by mlon on January 26, 2008 at 3:42 am

they must have had a good laugh in the recording studio.


mlon

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220. Comment #116257 by Communist on January 26, 2008 at 4:26 am

I see there are lots of people in here who promote ridicule and sarcasm as the proper response to this video. I am against that. You may think of such debates as a battle for the minds of the majority of people. But the makers of such propaganda material as this video are playing a different game. They aim for two goals:

1. To strengthen the convictions of those who are already true believers.
2. To recruite the small minority who may be vulnerable to this sort of thinking.

They don't care about the secular majority. They are not trying to convert us (yet!). This is a slow and gradual military campaign, with endless patience as their trusted weapon.

The best response to such propaganda is straightforward arguing without sarcasm or ridicule. Ridicule will most likely provoke sympathy among those who are already vulnerable.

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221. Comment #116260 by dlitt on January 26, 2008 at 4:51 am

73. Comment #115934 by angelsegg on January 25, 2008 at 4:38 am
A teacher was suspended and ordered to take sensitivity training after showing this video to an eighth-grade health class.
http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2007/12/11/news/topnews/144235.txt

Thanks angelsegg,

I sent the following to the Bismarck Tribune:

Teachers like Mr. Nider should not teach children. His compartmentalized irrational mind has no place in the field of education. Certainly not for preparing children for a future in science.
The number one threat to America's ability to remain a world leader in science and technology is the attempt of the religious right to 'dumb-down' society with ancient superstition.
I honestly believe that for humanity to proceed thousands of years into his/her future, we have to jettison this Bronze Age, rapture ready, 'sky fairy' belief that has plagued us for millennium, and learn from it as a 'pre-scientific era' explanation for our existence. Granted, there are lots of things we don't know, but I'd rather not know things than give up learning and attribute it to a deity. That's a defeatist mentality that prevents us from trying to find answers to the most profound questions.
If I were in charge of education in America, 'Critical Thinking Skills' would be an academic requirement for all students.
The scientific method of critical thinking applies to everything - including God. 'God' as a scientific hypothesis, doesn't have any testable evidence - therefore wouldn't even make it for peer review, and can be rejected. Teaching critical thinking skills to children is one of the most important gifts you can bestow. It provides them the ability to distinguish between science and pseudo-science, reality and superstition, and all the other nonsense that bombards their intellect from a multitude of sources daily. There are assuredly many incredibly brilliant children in this world that will never be our next Einsteins or Hawkings, because of the mind numbing effect of religious belief.

Other Comments by dlitt

222. Comment #116261 by Steve Zara on January 26, 2008 at 4:53 am

I see there are lots of people in here who promote ridicule and sarcasm as the proper response to this video.

Not as the proper response, but a useful response. In some circumstances.

The best response to such propaganda is straightforward arguing without sarcasm or ridicule. Ridicule will most likely provoke sympathy among those who are already vulnerable.

First, I don't see any way to directly respond rationally to such propoganda. One can argue that it is damaging, but anyone who believes that the content makes sense is any way is not going to be open to rational discussion. Perhaps some Church leaders may be persuaded that this video is embarassing for Christians in general.

Secondly, I believe ridicule can help control the effectiveness of such propoganda. It certainly helped with the Tom Cruise video I mentioned.

I can imagine a situation at a school where someone who might be scared by this video mentions it to others, who having seen this video as a source of humour, can reassure that it really is silly, and no-one seriously believes it. Perhaps I am being wildly optimistic, but I think it is worth a try.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

223. Comment #116263 by dlitt on January 26, 2008 at 4:57 am

222. Comment #116257 by Communist on January 26, 2008 at 4:26 am
I see there are lots of people in here who promote ridicule and sarcasm as the proper response to this video. I am against that.[edit]

I disagree - ridicule is a rational and effective response to the ridiculous.

Other Comments by dlitt

224. Comment #116264 by nogodsever on January 26, 2008 at 4:59 am

Three letters... L. O. L.

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225. Comment #116266 by scottishgeologist on January 26, 2008 at 5:09 am

Steve said:

"Perhaps some Church leaders may be persuaded that this video is embarassing for Christians in general."


Its a good point - I think the whole "doctrine of hell" is a major no-go area for a lot of churches.

The real hard core fundies love it, and will preach on it regularly. The sort of calvinist background I grew up in was full of this stuff. There are still a lot of churches who are right into this, although I suspect that in the UK, they are very much a minority

Liberal types simply dismiss the "doctrine of hell" with their "lovey dovey gentle Jesus hippy in a kaftan" new age stuff. God has too much love - he could never do THAT to anyone... The fact is that the character in the bible who has most to say about hell and damnation is Jesus himself!

The ones who shift about uncomfortably and get all queasy and embarassed are the ones in the middle - the conservative (but not fundie) types - the ones that are "bible believing" but hey, maybe the earth is OLD. The ones that claim to be evangie, but dont really talk much about it. They claim to be evangie and "bible believing" but still have women as elders.

These are the ones who get most uncomfortable with this doctrine. To be frank, I think most of them would not approve of this GodTube video. Most of the mainstream evangies I know would not use this type of material.

The problem for these people is again, the founder of their faith had a lot to say about hell and damnation. Its a bit like the Phelps thing - most people find it repellant, but lets face it, Phelps is quoting from the same holy tome that the other evangies use. Same with this "doctrine of hell" stuff. The video may be repellant - but its what the "good book" says.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

226. Comment #116271 by Richard Morgan on January 26, 2008 at 5:38 am

Scary movies scare some people.
This film is not so different from the evangelical rallies that were common christian fodder in the past.
It's what some christians do.
That someone should be producing this kind of film is unsurprising : Calvinism + modern technology.
It's contents will be disowned by most mainstream christians and ridiculed by everybody else.

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

227. Comment #116272 by Paula Kirby on January 26, 2008 at 5:39 am

ScottishGeologist: Its a good point - I think the whole "doctrine of hell" is a major no-go area for a lot of churches.

The Church of England officially denied the existence of hell in 1996. The Catholic church denied the existence of limbo in 2005. Maybe the Baptists will deny the existence of heaven in 2014 and we'll all be able to get on with just living the life we have NOW - and not before time.

It is shudderingly appalling that masses of people are having their lives - the only lives they'll EVER have - haunted and corrupted by such hideous, ludicrous beliefs. Chistians vaunt their religion as the ANSWER to evil: yet Christianity has come up with some of the most warped, twisted, barbaric concepts ever to have taken a hold on the human mind.

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

228. Comment #116275 by Steve Zara on January 26, 2008 at 5:50 am

This article is now on the popular news site "reddit", so is getting wide publicity. The comments on that site are an encouraging mixture of shock and ridicule. I don't think GodTube will look good after this.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

229. Comment #116282 by Vaal on January 26, 2008 at 6:34 am

I would say that satire is the most effective way of ridiculing this sort of nonsense. We have all found that trying to argue rationally with some of the religites on this site has been utterly pointless, as they completely ignore anything they don't agree with, regardless of the evidence, and spout non-stop inanities in endless circles.

They, as RD has pointed out in the God delusion, are beyond debate, and you might as well talk to a lump of cardboard, although I am impressed with Steve Zara's patience with them, and others. Perhaps every now and then, hopefully a seed grows in their minds and they may look at the world in a more logical frame of mind, but alas rarely, in my experience.

Life of Brian in particular. "Follow the shoe". "No, follow the gourd". The wonderful Ulster soothsayer talking about "a nine bladed sword", reminds me so much of the "Ian Paisley" type vicar we had at church in N Ireland.

Dave Allen and his side splitting humour as well as Father Ted are prime examples of biting satire, which really cut to the chase of this mind numbing nonsense, much more effectively than any argument.

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230. Comment #116284 by Double Bass Atheist on January 26, 2008 at 6:41 am

Thanks to all who've offered opinions and advice. Please keep it coming. I'm just looking for a direction here. In addition, Professor Dawkins, I am in the US – more specifically, New Jersey. Also, I did mention that I live in the US in comment #77, but obviously it is not likely that everyone will read every comment on a thread of this length. On hindsight, I probably should have simply said so in the lead-in paragraph of the article submission.

Thank you very much Professor for taking the time to give me your advice. It is sincerely appreciated, sir.

JuxtaMonkey and Cartomancer, I've read each of your advice-posts thoroughly. Thank you. I feel that this situation deserves a response of some kind, and that if I did nothing (and let just let it go away) an opportunity would be missed. An opportunity, that is, to embarrass these people with their own BS. As the Professor said, This film speaks for itself. Spread it around by all means…"
I have shown this video to several believers who were also shocked by it!

Hmm....well, in the short term, how about sending the kid who sent it to your kid videos from GodIsImaginary.com?

Amazing and ironic, Diacanu … I showed my son that very website the same evening he showed me the video. I selected a couple of those little videos (we watched them together) and I told him to give this link to his loony Christian friend!

I found the "reddit.com" link to this thread. Thanks Steve!

Regards,
~Carmine

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

231. Comment #116305 by Steve Zara on January 26, 2008 at 8:17 am

I would say that satire is the most effective way of ridiculing this sort of nonsense.

I'd just like to point one thing out in case it seems like I am giving contradictory advice. I think satire and ridicule is entirely appropriate for ideas, such as expressed in this awful view, but I don't personally normally approve of ridicule being applied to individuals. Saying "what you have been told is ridiculous" is quite different from saying "you are ridiculous".

Other Comments by Steve Zara

232. Comment #116306 by Deepthought on January 26, 2008 at 8:21 am

Saying "what you have been told is ridiculous" is quite different from saying "you are ridiculous".

I don't think most theists realize the difference. With some of the ones I've talked to, a single comment on the bible being rediculous or the interpretation of the bible that they have been told being rediculous immeadiately puts them on the offensive.

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233. Comment #116319 by Steve Zara on January 26, 2008 at 8:44 am

I don't think most theists realize the difference. With some of the ones I've talked to, a single comment on the bible being rediculous or the interpretation of the bible that they have been told being rediculous immeadiately puts them on the offensive.

I don't think this matters too much. What matters is how you seem to onlookers and/or readers. Often, the purpose of a discussion is not to convince the opponent, but to help sway others.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

234. Comment #116325 by bentleyd on January 26, 2008 at 8:51 am

"Do what I say, give me money, etc, or I will injure, torture, kill you" This is called extortion, and it's very much illegal. Unfortunately, because it's religion, polite society gives it a pass and dares not criticize.

I cringed when watching this video because I too was subjected to this sort of propaganda from the pulpit as a youth. I spent many sleepless nights fearing for my eternally damned soul.

Unfortunately, most mainstream moderate Christians here in America still believe in heaven & hell. Although most would be shocked by the graphic nature of the video, they still would mostly agree with it and think it a useful tool for their cause. A secular example might be a graphic video of the autopsy of a lung cancer victim, with the voice-over of Christopher Hitchens asking, "Why? Why didn't you tell me smoking was bad? (hack, hack, cough)"

Other Comments by bentleyd

235. Comment #116326 by Vaal on January 26, 2008 at 8:52 am

Steve, some individuals are prime candidates for satire. Pat Robertson, Archbishop Francisco Chimoio, the Bishop of Carlisle, Bishop Boniface, Darth Ratzinger, Dinesh D'souza etc etc

I would love to see "Spitting image" return as it would do a great job demolishing the above, and by association their message. It would also be a great vehicle for the younger generation to see through the absurdities, with laughter. Actually, RD and Hitchens would probably end up on it :-))

Other Comments by Vaal

236. Comment #116328 by Deepthought on January 26, 2008 at 8:53 am

Steve,
Point taken. It's just I don't usually debate apart from in front of a few friends, and most of the friends join the debate as so there are not really "onlookers". I have two creationists a few moderates and some atheists as friends so the debates can become fairly interesting. The only time there was an audience for one of the debates was on a school discussion board and I don't think that anyone's mind was changed. I was, however, debating with two creationists and hadn't yet read Richard Dawkins. I still think I won :-).

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237. Comment #116334 by Double Bass Atheist on January 26, 2008 at 9:00 am

I don't think most theists realize the difference. With some of the ones I've talked to, a single comment on the bible being rediculous or the interpretation of the bible that they have been told being rediculous immeadiately puts them on the offensive.

Deepthought is right on this one, Steve. I, too, have found that when criticizing a believer's ideas about their god, they take it as a personal attack on themselves. This is particularly true when arguing about evolution or, in the case of this thread, pointing out the ridiculous idea of 'hell'. When one exposes the fallacy of these concepts, the theist automatically gets very upset. How can you tell someone that their idea is silly without them taking it personally? After all, it is their idea you're calling silly.

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

238. Comment #116343 by AquaFight on January 26, 2008 at 9:15 am

so, he died because he didn't "believe in jesus"? they make it look as though you will be killing your friends if you don't convert them. that's emotional blackmail

Other Comments by AquaFight

239. Comment #116345 by Steve Zara on January 26, 2008 at 9:26 am

Deepthought is right on this one, Steve. I, too, have found that when criticizing a believer's ideas about their god, they take it as a personal attack on themselves.

I don't doubt that many do. But I still think it is worth sticking to the guideline that ideas can be challenged, but that is no reason to be directly rude to people. If they take this as being an attack on themselves, that is their problem in my view.

If we are going to have any debate at all, we have to challenge ideas. Do we hold back because people may find this challenging a problem?

I don't really see what the counter-argument to my point of view is here. I would be interested to know what it is. Is it that we should only attempt to challenge views with logic and reason? Or that we should not mind about directly ridiculing people?

Steve, some individuals are prime candidates for satire. Pat Robertson, Archbishop Francisco Chimoio, the Bishop of Carlisle, Bishop Boniface, Darth Ratzinger, Dinesh D'souza etc etc

Absolutely. There is all the difference between a typical believer and someone who has put themself into a public position. They are, in my view, fair game.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

240. Comment #116370 by TheTrueScotsman on January 26, 2008 at 10:46 am

I loved the "Wish You Were Here" line.

Has Alice Cooper been told? That's the name of a song off the wonderful "Alice Cooper Goes to Hell" album. He might want to sue.

Also, How could Josh complain about feeling his heart beat faster, surely he is a spiritual being now? Come to think of it, how does he feel pain? I'm a wee bit confused...

Other Comments by TheTrueScotsman

241. Comment #116371 by quill on January 26, 2008 at 10:48 am

Deepthought is right on this one, Steve. I, too, have found that when criticizing a believer's ideas about their god, they take it as a personal attack on themselves.

That's because they identify themselves according to to those beliefs. I think it's a product of the tribalistic way in which humans have evolved to think that as soon as the group they perceive themselves as belonging to has been defined, an attack on that group or the things that define that group is viewed as an attack on themselves.

For example, if the Rain Tribe is defined as those who live on the eastern side of the river, then as soon as someone else crosses over to the eastern side and tries to live there, it's an attack upon the Rain Tribe.

Similarly, if the Christian tribe is defined as those who believe in Christianity, then any attempt to criticize Christianity becomes an attack upon the Christian tribe, because it threatens the very thing by which they define themselves.

If their identity is based partially upon their beliefs, then attacking those beliefs is no different from attacking the believers themselves. But that's no reason to avoid criticizing Christianity. In fact, just pointing that out during a debate is one way of showing what's inherently destructive about religion to begin with.

Other Comments by quill

242. Comment #116374 by CShepGuy on January 26, 2008 at 10:51 am

Isn't there a way to streamline this process, other than looking through some huge book of names? Shouldn't god have all these names in his head already? What about people with the same names? Does he have a book of social security numbers?

The most bizarre part about this is that if no one tells you about Jesus, you're going to hell.

Other Comments by CShepGuy

243. Comment #116377 by Steve Zara on January 26, 2008 at 10:56 am

If their identity is based partially upon their beliefs, then attacking those beliefs is no different from attacking the believers themselves.

I believe it is. "I would like to point out that what you have been told is false" is always different from "you are an idiot".

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244. Comment #116378 by MPhil on January 26, 2008 at 10:57 am

Of course if no one tells you about Jesus you're going to hell.

This is a good tactic for the religious meme.
When passed on to principally kind-hearted people, they will not want anyone to go to hell, much less people they care about even somewhat. So in such a case, the meme gets the carrier to try to convert them for their own sake, so they will not suffer, because surely that would be undue. Sadly, the meme also prevents them from realizing that this suffering is mandated by the same god they hold as most just, most honorable, most holy.

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245. Comment #116379 by quill on January 26, 2008 at 11:02 am

I don't know, Steve. To a person who is thinking rationally, you're probably right. But when a Xian hears words like, "I would like to point out that what you have been told is false," I think the tribalistic instinct kicks in right away and the likeliest thoughts to go through his head are something like, "Here's a member of that evil atheist tribe. I'm not going to listen to what he says, since he's from the other tribe and is just trying to undermine ours."

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246. Comment #116380 by MPhil on January 26, 2008 at 11:06 am

Steve Zara
The problem is - everyone can find himself in the position of having accepted a false statement. The only way to minimize the possibility is to accept a standard of reasoning and evidence before one accepts a proposition. But if the believer has been indoctrinated and then later on seeks to rationalize his belief by defending the totally insufficient conditions for believing in a proposition (which he has to do, because short of abandoning his belief, he has no other choice), the identification with that is being made explicitly when confronted with reason and logic.
I would even venture a guess that a theist who is capable of reason and finds himself in this position knows that he's standing on extremely thin ice... but he makes the choice to defend his position and identifies his whole "spiritual" life with this defense. So when it gets attacked, he will feel attacked personally.
Thankfully, in my conversations with believers I have found that there are a lot of people whose belief is not that essential to their lives - and the reasoning gets a little easier. But there's still the conditioning.

Still, this doesn't stop me from agreeing with you that identifying oneself with irrational positions one holds which leads one to be personally offended when these are criticized makes it very much the believer's own responsibility.

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247. Comment #116383 by Steve Zara on January 26, 2008 at 11:15 am

I don't know, Steve. To a person who is thinking rationally, you're probably right. But when a Xian hears words like, "I would like to point out that what you have been told is false," I think the tribalistic instinct kicks in right away and the likeliest thoughts to go through his head are something like, "Here's a member of that evil atheist tribe. I'm not going to listen to what he says, since he's from the other tribe and is just trying to undermine ours."

Well, my Christian friends are certainly not like that! (thank goodness)

Tribal instinct kicks in in all kinds of areas. But we don't consider it inappropriate to attack the writing skills of George Lucas in front of Star Wars fanatics...

So when it gets attacked, he will feel attacked personally.

I may be giving the wrong impression. I have no objection to people feeling personally attacked. But, if they feel personally attacked as a result of reasonably good-natured questioning (and even ridicule) of ideas, I consider that to be their problem.

As Richard Dawkins points out in TGD, religion has to be treated like any other kind of opinion.

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248. Comment #116384 by Deepthought on January 26, 2008 at 11:24 am

Steve,
The religious don't support the idea that religion should be treated like "any other kind of opinion" so that approach is comprimised. I do it anyway but they still get very offensive.
I think that for ultimate proof of this concept reasearch what creationists call "Origins Science". It is basically stating that anything having to do with the origins of the universe or life needs a seperate type of science to explain it. In other words the scientific method shouldn't be used because it might contradict Genesis. I may be oversimplifying or misinterpreting it, but that's what it sounds like to me.

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249. Comment #116385 by Steve Zara on January 26, 2008 at 11:25 am

The religious don't support the idea that religion should be treated like "any other kind of opinion" so that approach is comprimised.

I know. But why should we play by their rules? What is the alternative?

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250. Comment #116387 by JuxtaMonkey on January 26, 2008 at 11:37 am

To make a report, Godtube has erased my account. Further more, Godtube has erased my comments from the "A Letter from Hell" thread. It should be noted as well, I made no attempts to use fowl or inappropriate language that would be sure to offend. I spoke my mind and...history was erased.

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