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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 6501 - 6550 of 9332 |

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6501. Comment #182338 by Goldy on May 19, 2008 at 6:54 pm

But you can't hang out with yeast and fruit flies and consider some measurable nuance that occurs at that level into the kind of changes that are said to have happened in large animals.

Why not? If it happens at a cellular level, doesn't that extrapolate "upwards"? After all, what can happen in a fruitfly happens in humans and whales. Just that fruitflies live shorter lives adn so can show the progression of a mutation in a population quicker.

Other Comments by Goldy

6502. Comment #182340 by Diacanu on May 19, 2008 at 7:02 pm

 avatarGoldy-


After all, what can happen in a fruitfly happens in humans and whales. Just that fruitflies live shorter lives adn so can show the progression of a mutation in a population quicker.


Exactly. The bigger the animal, the slower it goes.
And at exactly the speed the fossil record gets laid down.

Other Comments by Diacanu

6503. Comment #182341 by Goldy on May 19, 2008 at 7:03 pm

Did the same mutations that slowly extended and fused the upper lip and nose, also extend the incisors into tusks, or was that a separate, coincidental series?

Could have been coincidental, or one may have influenced the other. Maybe the elephant is a progression of that theme of prehensile tusk and large incisor. Maybe the wild pigs you see are a throwback to that stage.
Incidently, while looking up trunk evolution, I came across this...http://www.darwinism-watch.com/index.php?git=makale&makale_id=1291
Man, oh, man, what militant ignorance! Here's a quote
The deception which is taking place here is the portrayal of the claim that certain organs developed according to specific needs as if this were a proven historical development. Yet in the same way that there is no evidence for this, neither could such a process actually have happened. No living thing can develop new structures inside its body, no matter how much it may wish to. For example, no matter how much a person might wish to fly and concentrates on that idea for 10 hours a day, or even spends all his time in an effort to take to the air, the result will always be the same. Not even a single bird feather will ever appear on his arm, let alone a fully-formed wing.

Maybe prison is the only option for Adnan Oktar...

Other Comments by Goldy

6504. Comment #182342 by Goldy on May 19, 2008 at 7:07 pm

Diacanu, I am afraid we have a militant ignorant. He fights hard to maintain the darkness in his mind. Thinking outside the biblical box is sinful...
Sad, really. The beauty of biology is lost to him. Indeed, the magical discovery that science brings to the mind is...quashed. Imagination is forbidden, progress stamped on, enlightenment snuffed.

Other Comments by Goldy

6505. Comment #182343 by Goldy on May 19, 2008 at 7:09 pm

Talking of small changes...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/jurassic-park-technique-resurrects-extinct-dna-831017.html
Same story in the Telegraph...
Just shows, though, how different species (and even txpiper must concede that a placental mouse is a different species from a marsupial thylacine) can share information in their DNA, information that is conserved, despite their differences and ages of divergence.
Txpiper, you may bang on about different species being different from adapted same species, but here you can see we are all "adapted same species" - just some have taken the adaptation to much, much greater lengths. Your adaptations are the transitionals cretinists are forever asking for. Strange how you cannot see what is right in front of you!

Other Comments by Goldy

6506. Comment #182344 by MaxD on May 19, 2008 at 7:33 pm

 avatartxpiper,
Seriously read their work. It is key to understanding how even tiny variations translate to reproductive gains. There work is key to showing how little a difference need be to be "seen" by natural selection. One of the things speciation hasn't yet occured (we offered you examples of that happening) in large part because they island they work on doesn't trend one way (hot and dry or hot and wet) for very long. If it did we might very well see a speciation event. I simply suggest you read it for it is a good introduction to the evolutionary biology.

Gr8hands and I harp on artificial selection in dogs having produced any number of new species. Tigers and lions can interbreed but they are biologically isolated, and have a suite of behaviors that would have prevented this even when they were not geographically isolated from one another (lions and tigers enjoyed overlapping ranges for most of their existance, and only on place in India still has populations of lions left. In any event one can see a problem with finding hard lines to distinguish among species.)

My advice is to actually read alot more than what you do about the subject. Maybe then you will have something to offer than what seems a rather pointless stuff you offer now. I am not trying to be rude. But you aren't really here to dialogue. You don't accept our answers and you have no desire to look up anything we recommend. Look how easily you marginalized the work of the Grants. I know you think you have something interesting to say, but you really really don't.
Sorry to put it so bluntly.

Other Comments by MaxD

6507. Comment #182345 by MaxD on May 19, 2008 at 7:45 pm

 avatarTxpiper,
Sadly you are going to have to show why it isn't a fair extrapolation. You have to give us speciation. And I think given our spectacular work as agents of selection (dogs, cats, numerous plants, cattle) even genera and families. When you look at extant groups you see huge problems with Linnean classification. Where do warblers end and tanangers begin in the tropics. The tropics give us a window into the problem as there are many more closely related species, that run across genera and families. Txpiper you think there are hard lines that go from this to that and that to something else. There just aren't.

Tomorrow some stochastic event could wipe out a group and we would have what looked like a more distinct picture than there really was. Something like this happened among hominids. We seem more than mildly different from chimps (though not all that much, especially if we put our babies next to theirs). However, bring back the australopithicines, bring back the rest of the Hominidae Homo erectus, H. habilis, H. neanderthalensis and you begin to see huge problems with the idea there is an insurmountable chasm between us and our cousins the chimps, and from the apes to the monkeys, and from monkey's, and thence from the primates to...well you get the idea.

Other Comments by MaxD

6508. Comment #182348 by txpiper on May 19, 2008 at 7:58 pm

Goldy,

You might enjoy this article as well as it is about a shared protein:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080512105736.htm

Other Comments by txpiper

6509. Comment #182358 by Quine on May 19, 2008 at 8:42 pm

 avatarWell, txpiper, your last post steps out of your pattern, and does add to the dialog, and as such, deserves a reply.

I found the Science Daily piece very interesting. If the myosin 2 protein is also used in early stage development, it would explain why any change to its structure would be deadly (even if that change would not effect the adult organism), and thus making it unchanging through vast spaces of evolutionary time. The great thing about the theory is that it makes these kinds of predictions that we can go check.

Did you also see the link to this article that was on the same page?

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6510. Comment #182362 by MaxD on May 19, 2008 at 9:01 pm

 avatarTxpiper,
I agree with Quine on this point. it is an interesting article. Genes like this actually allow us to assess relatedness among species. The genes that code for protiens like myosin 2 are referred to as highly conserved genes, as changes in them can spell immediate disaster for organisms. One I've used to assess genetic relatedness is mitochondrial cytochrome b.

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6511. Comment #182369 by txpiper on May 19, 2008 at 9:35 pm

MaxD,

Look how easily you marginalized the work of the Grants.

I didn't marginalize their work. It is simply not applicable to the formation of extremely complex systems and components. There is no rational way to apply the data acquired from studying variations in bird beaks to the development of echolocation in bats.

I know you think you have something interesting to say, but you really really don't.

I am quite confident in the relevance of my questions. I think you want to steer altogether clear of elephant trunks and I don't mind telling you why.

There are too many areas of specialization involved. The earliest you can realistically start would be the KTE. 65 million years sounds like a lot till you start really trying to contrive a scenario that works.

When you factor in time to sexual maturity, gestation periods and calving cycles, you lose a large percentage of those years. These only get longer as the size of the animal increases. Granted, somebody would always be pregnant, and therefore possibly catching a germ line mutation, but these factors are also going to inhibit a beneficial mutation from spreading quickly through the species. And like it or not, most of the mutations will be inconsequential; some will be deleterious; and beneficial ones, if they occur at all, are going to be extremely rare. There is also the realistic possibility that the mutation could reverse a previous one.

In other words, you have one heck of a lot of very coordinated evolving to do. Extraordinary muscle development, skull accommodations, lip, nose & nostril renovation, olfactory expansion, incredible tooth reformation and all the wiring and brain hardware and software, all have to be produced by those mutations. On one hand, the process is constrained by time. On the other, the reality of the changes having to be almost undetectable from one generation to the next imposes an effective speed limit.

But we can at least try to see if it is plausible. So I'll ask you again, how many beneficial DNA replication errors do you think were involved?

Other Comments by txpiper

6512. Comment #182370 by Goldy on May 19, 2008 at 9:42 pm

You might enjoy this article as well as it is about a shared protein

;-) Working in cancer research, a lot of my in votro work depends on shared proteins. Mouse, rat, dog and human :-)

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6513. Comment #182371 by Brian English on May 19, 2008 at 9:48 pm

Txpiper, on the island of Flores (home of the hobbit) there were dwarf Stegedons and still are giant monitors (Komodo dragons). Changing size in a relatively short period of time isn't a biggy.

Insular dwarfism

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6514. Comment #182375 by Diacanu on May 19, 2008 at 9:57 pm

 avatartxpiper-


I think you want to steer altogether clear of elephant trunks and I don't mind telling you why.


You clearly want to steer altogether clear of my questions about magic and biblical myth, and it isn't difficult at all to guess why.

Other Comments by Diacanu

6515. Comment #182381 by MaxD on May 19, 2008 at 10:18 pm

 avatarTxpiper,
I have no idea how many beneficial mutations might have been involved. Neither do you. It could have been a few, it could have been a lot.
It doesn't strike me as terribly hard work though considering we see rudiments, and I do mean rudiments of the most rudimentary kind in another animal from a whole different group, the carnivora. Bears have more or less prehensile lips and something you will notice is that the nose moves pretty freely too. Wiggle your own lips around and you will note some motion in your own nose.

Simply put there are already a lot of connected muscles and structures and it seems no more problematic to me than reducing digits in horses, or making shrews fly. The fact is you act as if the developing proboscisis needed to be as perfectly made as what find in current elephants. And that, in a word, is bullshit! And this is where the work of Peter and Rosemary Grant might help you over the hurdles of your incredulity. All the developing trunk needed to be was just a little better than whatever its contemporaries were toting around at the time.

I used bears, but I really needn't have done that. everyone has seen film of them wiggling their noses as they peel berries out of bushes with their agile lips, and I thought that they were a good illustration of the fact that the system of muscles is already all connected and would need only minor adjustments in programing and structure at the intervening steps. But I could have just as well pointed to the intermediates in the Order Proboscidae.

Elephants are linked to phylogenetically to several species whose noses are all at varying lengths.
These two are the closest living relatives to modern Elephants.
Hyraxes
Sea Cows
Extinct members of the tribe:
Moeritherium
Palaeomastodon
Gomphotheres
Mastodons
Primelephas
Mammoths
Living members of the group:
Modern elephants

Looking at these species, occupying different time periods you will notice that the proboscis seems to go through several transitional stages. Neato eh? And that from just a little research on the interwebs.
Go here for more on the impossible elephant trunk.
http://www.allelephants.com/allinfo/evol.php

While you are thinking about impossible elephant trunks you might want to keep in mind that snakes are interesting in that simple genetic switches seem to add or substract units of vertebrae more or less willy nilly. By your logic this should be impossible. Adding a vertebrae requires nervous, musclular, vascular connections, ligaments, extra synovial fluid oh my how can it cope. A simple genetic code that stays on when it shouldn't? It doesn't matter for the purpose of my example which shows that segments, even very complex ones can be added by very simple controls.
No Txpiper, elephant trunks don't scare me in the slightest.
EDITED
some of my wording in the first two paragraphs. And added the website I forgot to add.

Other Comments by MaxD

6516. Comment #182385 by Quine on May 19, 2008 at 10:43 pm

 avatarIt does not sound like he (tx) bothered to look at the link in my last post. If he had, he would have learned about how changes in the DNA sequences that control the expression of the possible proteins from the gene library in each cell cause much faster evolutionary changes than working out new proteins.

If you look at this set of pages about the evolution of elephants you can see that the trunk starts developing by as late as Palaeomastodon some 35 million years ago. This much smaller animal likely had a generation time shorter than today's elephant, but just for rough calculation let us assume the average generation time is less than 35 years, so there have been at least 1 million generations to get to today. If evolution only changed things by 1% of 1% of 1% per generation, it would be enough. Yes, you are not going to detect 1% of 1% of 1%. [Edit: This is just a simple linear fit that does not take into consideration the exponential nature of changes as in compound interest.]

Specific wiring diagrams for nerves and blood vessels and many other phenotypic characteristics are not in the DNA. These things emerge as the cells grow along side each other and follow chemical messages from their neighbors during development. This is why identical twins who have identical DNA do not have identical fingerprints or retinal scans. Getting a long trunk on an elephant requires the DNA to generate the growth messages for all the cell types involved (I don't think any new cell types are involved), but much of the wiring and circulatory system and muscle connections are going to work themselves out during development. Not a big deal, especially if you have a million generations to try things out.

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6517. Comment #182393 by MaxD on May 19, 2008 at 11:44 pm

 avatarQuine,
How do you do that fancy linkin'?

What I find interesting is how this 'Argument from Incredulity' often vanishes the more one knows about biology. The elephant trunk thing we just addressed again removes the likelihood that adjectives like insurmountable, and impossible are simply not anywhere near appropriate. (I'd further note that the whole nose, mouth area are prime for this kind adaptation given the right selective pressures. Like theropods were well primed to give rise to birds. I think the term-a terrible one-is preadapted. In any event what I am saying is that the co-ordinations of mouths, noses and lips make the system amenable to such changes.)

Other things I find interesting are the lengths some folk will go to not learn what is necessary.
Ah well.

Other Comments by MaxD

6518. Comment #182394 by epeeist on May 19, 2008 at 11:46 pm

 avatarComment #182333 by txpiper
But you can't hang out with yeast and fruit flies and consider some measurable nuance that occurs at that level into the kind of changes that are said to have happened in large animals.
But you can't hang out with a wheel and an axle, a pulley or a screw and consider some measurable nuance that occurs at that level into the kind of mechanics that occur in motor bikes or aeroplanes.

Other Comments by epeeist

6519. Comment #182395 by MaxD on May 19, 2008 at 11:48 pm

 avatarOh epeeist,
That was...well...it was priceless.

Other Comments by MaxD

6520. Comment #182396 by epeeist on May 19, 2008 at 11:57 pm

 avatarComment #182395 by MaxD
That was...well...it was priceless.
Thanks for that. I had thought of using the Sorites paradox...

The ToE works for fruitflies, add a bit more complexity and does it still work, add a bit more...

However I couldn't think of a good chain of examples. If he wants to claim that there is a different mechanism for "higher" organisms then he is going to have to present it and show where the demarcation is between natural selection and his method. And explain why there is a difference.

I wonder whether "parsimony" is a word to txpiper?

Other Comments by epeeist

6521. Comment #182399 by Quine on May 20, 2008 at 12:19 am

 avatarComment #182393 by MaxD
Quine,
How do you do that fancy linkin'?


It is just the HTML link as shown in the Comment Posting Guidelines, except that I add the font color tag to make it stand out so I can find them quickly when I am looking back for one.

The hardest trick is that the hyperlink auto-editing feature is going to mess it up the first time you submit the post, so I just copy the entire post before I submit it, and then immediately hit the edit and paste the original post back over the messed up one and then hit the submit again. A bit of a pain, but I am used to it now. (Edit:There are no links in this post, so I won't have to do that this time.)

---------
Edit: Okay, now that I posted this, I have gone back in with the edit button and changed the "HTML link" in the first line into a link to an HTML quick ref page. To do this, I inserted this string just before: <a href="http://www.htmlgoodies.com/beyond/reference/article.php/3472851" target="_blank"><font color=blue><u>
and this one just after: </u></font></a>

If you write your posts in Word, or another editor, you can write yourself a macro that does all that for you so you don't have to keep typing all those tags.

--------
Edit2: This time I went back in and changed the "Comment Posting Guidelines" in the first line to a relative link by inserting the string: <a href="./commentNotes.html" target="_blank"><font color="#8080E0"><u>
before and then the closing string: </u></font></a> just after.

This is a relative link because the URL is ./commentNotes.html which is here in the RD.net relative to this page. I use a non standard color for this, again so I can easily find links to comments. I did this again to put in the link back to the comment by MaxD using the string: <a href="./articleComments,2394,Lying-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins,page131#182393" target="_blank"><font color="#8080E0"<u>
just ahead, and again followed by the closing string.

Another use of the relative URL is to put smilies in your comments. There is a page of smilies over in the RD Forum that you can get through the relative URL ./forum/images/smilies so if you paste this string in your comment:

<img src="./forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=";)" title="Wink" />

You will get: ;)

Other Comments by Quine

6522. Comment #182423 by Colwyn Abernathy on May 20, 2008 at 4:41 am

 avatar
I am quite confident in the relevance of my questions. I think you want to steer altogether clear of elephant trunks and I don't mind telling you why.


Photobucket...Photobucket

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

6523. Comment #182432 by The Reverend Dark on May 20, 2008 at 5:20 am

 avatarDicanu, do not feel bad. Txpiper ignores the questions that would reveal his own bug-fuck nuts beliefs (despite them already being unearthed), just like he ignores the evidence presented to him. He has the standard creationist bugaboo of being sensitive to profanity and personal invecitive. Given that his every utterance is steeped in deliberately cultivated ignorance, he is far more profane than anything you or I could write in terms of personal attack.

Deliberate, cultivated, ignorance is the ultimate insult.

Of course, I am not writing for the benefit of Txpiper; just holding him up as an example of the sort of gibbering, creationist, homunculi that must be refuted, and belittled at every opportunity. His deliberate incredulity must be mocked, and while dragging him kicking and screaming out of the bronze age is clearly not possible, he is not the only one reading this thread.



Txpiper mewled.

I didn't marginalize their work. It is simply not applicable to the formation of extremely complex systems and components. There is no rational way to apply the data acquired from studying variations in bird beaks to the development of echolocation in bats


Well laughing boy, you believe in perfect creations and a supernatural anti-christ. You are not really supposed to use the word rational in a sentence.

You clearly do not know what it means.


I am quite confident in the relevance of my questions. I think you want to steer altogether clear of elephant trunks and I don't mind telling you why.


Of course you are confident - you don't know enough about the subject to question your own inanity. You deliberately ignore the fossil record, comparable morphology in related species, observable variation, not to mention the numerous papers written specifically on that subject. This is the sort of deliberate, cultivated, ignorance that you and your loathsome, creationist ilk is wont to engage in.

Or do you postulate an alternate mechanism to exlain it? Of course not, you know that your explanation has no evidence to back it up, save the sad, desperate, raving of bronze age bell-ends, and those that still cling to the sad, desperate, ravings of the aforementioned bell-ends.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

PS. Here laughing boy, some lovely discussion on mutation rate in elephants (more specifically their ancestors.)
http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0050207

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

6524. Comment #182434 by hungarianelephant on May 20, 2008 at 5:51 am

 avatar"Not enough time" is also one of wooter's complaints. It seems to be a creationist thing.

The idea of geological time is one which we humanoids struggle to grasp. It might seem like a long time since Bush was elected, but in geological terms it is nothing. The entirety of human history is nothing. If you stretched out your arms, and the distance between your fingertips represented the planet's history, you could remove the whole of the industrial age with a single stroke of a nail file.

Quine correctly refers to 1% of 1% of 1% per generation, something which we would not even notice. To put it another way, one generation as a proportion of elephant history is roughly equivalent to 30 seconds of a human life.

At the same time, we can see marked physical differences between humans today and, say, during World War I. We know this because we have millions of medical records of army recruits to prove it. To be sure, many of the differences are not genetic, and the basic body plan has remained the same. But if we can see a noticeable difference in just four generations, what might a million look like?

If this is hard for most of us to imagine, it must be doubly hard when your imagination is deliberately suppressed by a dogma which says that life was created 6000 years ago on a Wednesday afternoon.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

6525. Comment #182439 by alan baylis on May 20, 2008 at 6:06 am

Comment #182394 by epeeist


But you can't hang out with a wheel and an axle, a pulley or a screw and consider some measurable nuance that occurs at that level into the kind of mechanics that occur in motor bikes or aeroplanes.



But to pre-empt him, tx will just reply that "god given" human intelligence did that.

Comment #182396 by epeeist

The ToE works for fruitflies, add a bit more complexity and does it still work, add a bit more...



That's the answer, right there, IMHO. Nicely put.

But of course he won't accept it.


I think txpiper is playing a dangerous game here, for a fundamentalist. I don't think that he is an otherwise stupid man (no offence intended, tx ) and a lot of this must be sinking in without him necessarily realizing it.

He may wake up suddenly one night and realize something like "of course evolution is true, all the evidence is there! How could it be otherwise?" He will have seen the inescapable logic of it all. Unlikely? Well, plenty of former religious people have had similar experiences, so he won't be that unusual.


[EDIT]

txpiper,

after submitting the above, I remembered this article. It's a bit long but very interesting IMO.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2338,Crossing-the-Divide,ScienceMagcom

Cheers,
Alan.

Other Comments by alan baylis

6526. Comment #182440 by SRWB on May 20, 2008 at 6:10 am

...life was created 6000 years ago on a Wednesday afternoon.

Never on a Wednesday, a day named after Wotan (Odin), who is just another lesser god, and is no longer widely worshipped.

Other Comments by SRWB

6527. Comment #182465 by gr8hands on May 20, 2008 at 7:34 am

Did anyone notice that txpiper didn't respond to the demonstration that his statement about self-organization was wrong?

I mean, really! What bad manners. Is a simple "the evidence shows that I was wrong" too much to ask?

Of course, since most of his erroneous conclusions are based on that wrong concept, this would be a major stumbling block for him, causing his precariously stacked mumbo-jumbo to fall down around him. That has to be scary for a person so emotionally committed to one particular view.

Other Comments by gr8hands

6528. Comment #182471 by irate_atheist on May 20, 2008 at 7:49 am

 avatarFucktard alert:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/may/20/1

You couldn't make it up.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

6529. Comment #182474 by MaxD on May 20, 2008 at 8:00 am

 avatarSRWB,
Odin (Wotan) has this Yaweh business handled. His son Thor has this Jesus business handled.
I mean could Yaweh take on the Mid-gard serpent? Eh...? I think not. That particular serpent would have demonlished Leviathan.
I await your apology to the norse gods.

Other Comments by MaxD

6530. Comment #182476 by Colwyn Abernathy on May 20, 2008 at 8:03 am

 avatar
He has the standard creationist bugaboo of being sensitive to profanity and personal invecitive. Given that his every utterance is steeped in deliberately cultivated ignorance, he is far more profane than anything you or I could write in terms of personal attack.


VOLDEMORT'S NIPPLE!

http://www.youtube.com/v/TqTHmzMk0Cw&hl

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

6531. Comment #182477 by The Reverend Dark on May 20, 2008 at 8:04 am

 avatarOooh! My god is greater than your god fight. Imaginary friend smackdown!

Bert the magic penguin opens up with his heavenly, groin-level, herring-scented headbut in the first round, dooming Yahweh to a genital clutching stagger for eternity.

No wonder the goit moves in a mysterious way. His testes have been 'taken up' to just below his collarbones.

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

6532. Comment #182479 by Quetzalcoatl on May 20, 2008 at 8:12 am

 avatarBert the magic penguin's next opponent is the serpent of Midgard. Bert readies himself.....in an ironic twist, the penguin slips on a patch of ice and falls down! The serpent seizes its opportunity and devours the penguin. A sad end for the magical bird.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

6533. Comment #182481 by MaxD on May 20, 2008 at 8:19 am

 avatarIrate-atheist,
So how does one like them apples? I am less annoyed by the CoS's complaints (what the hell are they going to do? Clearly they have every dislike of free speech and we wogs, they are always going to try to limit critique) but what upsets me more is the attitude toward free speech exibited by your benighted country.

A spokeswoman for the force said today: "City of London police had received complaints about demonstrators using the words 'cult' and 'Scientology kills' during protests against the Church of Scientology.

So this is a reason to silence peaceful demonstrators?
And this from the Public Order Act seems a bit chilling to me,
The section prohibits signs which have representations or words which are threatening, abusive or insulting.

I suppose the boy's sign qualifies since he is offending the parties he is criticising but I would have expected that it meant something more generally offence making, like say racist placards, or ones that call for violence, like "slay those who criticize Islam." Not legitamate labels, or charges against the CoS. I guess I just don't understand your wacky country Irate.

Other Comments by MaxD

6534. Comment #182483 by MaxD on May 20, 2008 at 8:24 am

 avatarQuetz,
Your tale makes an excellent point, some nights (or days) you eat the Midgard serpent, and some nights (or days) it eats you. It just wasn't the magic penquin's fight. Penguins slip all the time you know? Giant serpents are already uh..down. I don't know why Bertie's manager accepted an icey venue. Oh I smell a conspiracy, Bertie's manager is Jesus! He probably set bertie up for that business with his daddy's balls.

Other Comments by MaxD

6535. Comment #182528 by SRWB on May 20, 2008 at 10:57 am

MaxD
I await your apology to the norse gods.

Of course, what was I thinking?! The Norse (Germanic) gods are way cooler than old Yahweh. Besides, I don't think they were responsible for killing nearly so many of their faithful followers.

CoS vs Scientology - battle of the cults. What was it that Irate said........?

Other Comments by SRWB

6536. Comment #182558 by Quine on May 20, 2008 at 1:05 pm

 avatarThe discussion into the rates of diversification in evolution we have been having has brought up some new thoughts. As I tried to explain to tx yesterday, having cells with a library of protein molecules ready to express based on sections of regulatory DNA means that small changes in those pieces of DNA have big impacts on the morphology of the resulting organism. This being the case, when did this start being the case?

The reason I ask this question is that the ToE would predict that there should be a visible transition in the fossil record from a time before this ability (to switch in and out existing proteins) to a subsequent time when this ability is common. Before it happens, organisms would have to evolve new proteins to make significant changes, so changes would be expected to be slow. But once the library is built up and the mechanism to do the choosing and timing of expression is there, we would expect to see a sudden (on the geologic scale) increase in diversity until the new options for ecological niches are populated.

Can anyone point me to work along this line?

Other Comments by Quine

6537. Comment #182560 by freethinker79 on May 20, 2008 at 1:31 pm

I can understand being angry at what you felt was a deception, but this article only proves their argument of Darwinists being arrogant to be true. No one wants to hear how much better you are than they are. Address the claims of the movie, not their humor, or lack of wit. The name calling and the insults are one of the cry-babiest, tail-between-the-legs responses I have ever read, not to mention it breaks all the fundamental rules of debate and argument. The kid who said, "My dad can beat up your dad," probably did not win the argument. I am not condoning what you allege the producers have done, all I am saying is that you may have hurt your own cause by refusing (as you state in this article) to address the main point in this film, and by attacking its makers personally, you add credence to their story. It would have been better not to respond at all. Shame on you.

Other Comments by freethinker79

6538. Comment #182562 by Verylee on May 20, 2008 at 1:42 pm

 avatarComment #182560 by freethinker79
The name calling and the insults are one of the cry-babiest, tail-between-the-legs responses I have ever read, not to mention it breaks all the fundamental rules of debate and argument......It would have been better not to respond at all.


I'm kind of with you in a way. There is no debate...creationism is not even wrong.

Other Comments by Verylee

6539. Comment #182564 by al-rawandi on May 20, 2008 at 1:52 pm

 avatarfreethinkey79,






Uhhhh ok you are going to have to tell people what the point of the film was. They claimed it was that "Darwinists" suppress debate, this isn't true, they debate one another all the time. This is what scientists do. They do not allow non-science to pretend to be science.

That would be like me and my friends going to play golf and you show up in football pads and helmet, put a football on a tee and kick it down the fairway. We, and the course staff, would ask you to leave.

If they want to talk science, they can use the scientific method, if they want to talk hypothetical fairytale nonsense (which is what they are doing) they can keep that in their church or other fortress of ignorance. But they absolutely cannot kick a football and call it golf.

They have NO claim at all. It isn't even close to making sense, all that one can do is ridicule.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

6540. Comment #182565 by Quetzalcoatl on May 20, 2008 at 1:55 pm

 avatarFreethinker79-

have you gone through the entire thread? There were numerous posts dealing with the movie's claims. I see that you are a new poster. Will you be sticking around?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

6541. Comment #182567 by Dr Benway on May 20, 2008 at 2:16 pm

 avatarFreethinker79, I agree that name calling is a distraction.

You likely are not aware that "Darwinist" is term invented by creationists. Biologists don't call themselves "Darwinists," anymore than physicists call themselves "Newtonists."

I don't accept your "shame on you." The movie "Expelled" exhibits a conscious effort to mislead people. For the sake of good science education in this country, it's important to be upset about this.

You can read more here: www.expelledexposed.com

Other Comments by Dr Benway

6542. Comment #182571 by Goldy on May 20, 2008 at 2:33 pm

...but this article only proves their argument of Darwinists being arrogant to be true

I agree! Never once do I hear a Darwinist give any credit to Wallace, nor even mention Wallace once when talking of evolution. Always Darwin this and Darwin that.
Pah!
Another gripe of mine is ...why do people who never think (the religious) always have some name that refers to clearminded free thinking? Free thinking and clear minds are exactly the opposite of what religion requires. Dogma and ignorance, that's the main requirements! Look at clearthinkers contributions. See how txpiper fights education all the way to his grave (have to say at least he's not got and oxymoronic name).

Other Comments by Goldy

6543. Comment #182572 by al-rawandi on May 20, 2008 at 2:43 pm

 avatarHow dare some religious god nut, come accuse Darwinists of arrogance.


The religious have been trying to sell this shabby lie, "We are humble" from time immemorial. And it is bullshit. Let's see... "My god knows everything, no argument can refute or defeat him, I get to spend an eternity of bliss with him, and you get to go to hell to be burnt in a fire eternally... oh ya and since you accept evidence based conclusions only... you are arrogant". Come on, religion itself is the pinnacle of arrogance, the religious simply don't have the courage to be arrogant, they make an imaginary deity on whose behalf they may be arrogant.

How clever, apparently they aren't as stupid as we first thought. Such an elaborate game of sock puppet...

Other Comments by al-rawandi

6544. Comment #182575 by Styrer- on May 20, 2008 at 2:46 pm

Comment #182560 by freethinker79 on May 20, 2008 at 1:31 pm

Hello Freethinker79. Welcome to the site.

Can I take your name at face value?

Perhaps you would let me know if you are a deist, theist, agnostic or atheist.

Thank you.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

6545. Comment #182596 by Quine on May 20, 2008 at 3:35 pm

 avatarAl:
Come on, religion itself is the pinnacle of arrogance, ...

It is the arrogance of form without substance.

Other Comments by Quine

6546. Comment #183166 by calvaryguy on May 21, 2008 at 1:28 pm

I happen too know Ben Stein and the makers of the film. Im sorry too disapoint everyone but they are telling the truth. they have done all the research nessecary and I loved the film. IT was great!!!!. Ben stein is a great man and great friend. ttyl.

Other Comments by calvaryguy

6547. Comment #183172 by Corylus on May 21, 2008 at 1:36 pm

 avatarWell Calvaryguy I am not really concerned about who you are personally acquainted with.

However do, please, elucidate about what 'necessary research' was done.

Tell you what. Why not give us a particular point that you agreed with so that we can discuss it?

Other Comments by Corylus

6548. Comment #183176 by Diacanu on May 21, 2008 at 1:40 pm

 avatarcalvaryguy-


Im sorry too disapoint everyone but they are telling the truth.


That if we don't blindly accept creationist bullshit, and resist in any way an American theocracy, we're a bunch of fascist meanies?

Blow it out your ass.

And learn to fucking spell.

What are you, nine??

Other Comments by Diacanu

6549. Comment #183181 by Peacebeuponme on May 21, 2008 at 1:45 pm

calvaryguy
Im sorry too disapoint everyone but they are telling the truth.
Can you explain why?

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

6550. Comment #183272 by MaxD on May 21, 2008 at 5:25 pm

 avatarCalvalryGuy seems like a driveby poster. I don't think he will be responding.

Other Comments by MaxD
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