









Lying for Jesus?Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."
It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.
Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?
6702. Comment #188777 by Mark Smith on June 4, 2008 at 2:12 pm
txpiper, you said (quoting me first)They also know that there are nevertheless enough helpful ones to bring about tiny changes which add up to significant changes over time, such that the whole of the diversity of life is explained.
This is just what some biologists, and you, believe. They do not know any such thing.
6703. Comment #188849 by txpiper on June 4, 2008 at 7:37 pm
keith,It would interest me what you would say if you ever came face to face with a world class paleontologist who believes in evolution, as they almost by definition have to.
You, on the other hand, appear to hold the highly unjustified beliefs that (a) natural selection causes diversity within species but cannot cross some mysterious ill-defined boundary to bring about new species
6704. Comment #188854 by Goldy on June 4, 2008 at 7:53 pm
txpiper, mate, give up. You're wandering around like Ezekiel now, ranting and raving. Heck, you even started out like Ezekiel, come to think of it.6705. Comment #188868 by Diacanu on June 4, 2008 at 9:13 pm
6706. Comment #188870 by txpiper on June 4, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Goldy,The T.rex tissue was a fluke. They happen.
Look at wood - it has been found fossilised and turned to stone. It has been found as coal. And, I do believe it has also been found as....wood.
On another note, can you explain the black squirrels I have read about terrorising UK grey squirrels.
6707. Comment #188871 by Frankus1122 on June 4, 2008 at 9:21 pm
6708. Comment #188880 by mordacious1 on June 4, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Man, I'm glad I'm not involved in this thread, I'm getting annoyed just reading this page. From under what petrified tree did this guy crawl out.6709. Comment #188908 by The Reverend Dark on June 5, 2008 at 1:52 am
All the excitement about something like Tiktaalik (which after all is said and done, was still a fish) is based on relatively superficial morphology. There isn't any demonstrable evidence for a random sequence of DNA replication errors which transformed gills into lungs, fins into limbs, scales into skin or any of the myriad other things necessary to get from this animal to a tetrapod. All of that is perfectly imaginary. There are no fossils to show that this ever happened, and there are no experiments to show that it could have.
I would probably ask him/her about the T-Rex that was found with bone and vascular tissue still not fossilized, though it was supposed to be some 68 million years old.
I read most everything that was published on the net about that back in 2005, but I never heard any paleontologist openly state that their dating methods might be suspect, which is of course, exactly what this discovery suggests. But then, as you noted, there is a large degree of "have to" involved in the beliefs of establishment paleontologists.
6710. Comment #188912 by GordonYKWong on June 5, 2008 at 1:57 am
6689. Comment #188284 by txpiper on June 3, 2008 at 6:07 pmIn order for us (all of us) to talk on the same page, can I confirm with you about what you have been saying to me in this thread?
Mutations do occur and natural selection really happens. But I don't think these work the way conventional evolutionary theory says that they do.
First, your theory is yours to prove, not mine to disprove.As far as I understand it and do correct me if I am wrong, theories are for all of us to disprove, not proved (Mathematic and Logic is where the formal proofs come in). Only those hypothesis that stand solid against the heat of scientific scrutiny and mounting evidence can it be deem worthy enough of being a scientific theory.
6711. Comment #188922 by GordonYKWong on June 5, 2008 at 2:13 am
6689. Comment #188284 by txpiper on June 3, 2008 at 6:07 pmI just want to clarify, do you consider Canines as a distinct vertebrate class from say Bovines? What about Canines and Cetaceans, are they distinct?What evidence, if any, could convince you that the process of Natural Selection can be responsible for some "vertebrate classes changing into another"?That's actually not an easy question to answer. As I see it, there aren't that many categories of evidence that are used to support that idea.
6712. Comment #188929 by Greyman on June 5, 2008 at 2:25 am
6704. Comment #188849 by txpiper on June 4, 2008 at 7:37 pm
I would probably ask him/her about the T-Rex that was found with bone and vascular tissue still not fossilized, though it was supposed to be some 68 million years old.
I read most everything that was published on the net about that back in 2005, but I never heard any paleontologist openly state that their dating methods might be suspect, which is of course, exactly what this discovery suggests. But then, as you noted, there is a large degree of "have to" involved in the beliefs of establishment paleontologists.
It's probably because the discovery doesn't actually suggest that the multiple dating methods used might be wrong at all. On one hand you have independant radiometric and geochemical data determining the age the fossil and surounding rock formation, on the other all you have is the incredulity that any organic matterial tissue could be preserved so long.
[edit: The Reverend Dark provided a nice link outlining this.]
6707. Comment #188870 by txpiper on June 4, 2008 at 9:18 pmYou bet. A fluke. But your attitude reflects an odd disposition towards science, one that I noticed in some other articles I read about this particular T rex specimen. It sounds like you'd prefer that this particular fluke had not happened. I would have thought that anyone with a real interest in science would be absolutely thrilled.
The research is still ongoing on the MOR 1125 T rex. The latest thing I read was about the sequencing of collagen protein from that specimen.
Yes, and one of the more thrilling results of this is that biochemical comparison of these protiens supports the theory that birds evolved from dinosaurs.
Goldy undoubtably does not prefer that this wonderful fluke did not exists. His point was that such flukes, though rare, have happened before.
6713. Comment #188940 by DamnDirtyApe on June 5, 2008 at 2:42 am
6714. Comment #188943 by Tyler Durden on June 5, 2008 at 2:48 am
6715. Comment #188947 by GordonYKWong on June 5, 2008 at 2:58 am
6704. Comment #188849 by txpiper on June 4, 2008 at 7:37 pmNot to be picky but gills are not lungs and scales are not skin. They can be independently evolved, not evolved from one into another.
There isn't any demonstrable evidence for a random sequence of DNA replication errors which transformed gills into lungs, fins into limbs, scales into skin or any of the myriad other things necessary to get from this animal to a tetrapod.
6716. Comment #189147 by Mark Smith on June 5, 2008 at 2:33 pm
txpiper, you saidTiktaalik (which after all is said and done, was still a fish)
The taxonomy of the Herring Gull / Lesser Black-backed Gull complex is very complicated, different authorities recognising between two and eight species.
This group has a ring distribution around the northern hemisphere. Differences between adjacent forms in this ring are fairly small, but by the time the circuit is completed, the end members, Herring Gull and Lesser Black-backed Gull, are clearly different species.
6717. Comment #189166 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Sorry for the delay in replying to comment #188870 - moving house and now I have a cold! Bloody mutating viri (but hey, that's evolution for you!)You bet. A fluke. But your attitude reflects an odd disposition towards science, one that I noticed in some other articles I read about this particular T rex specimen. It sounds like you'd prefer that this particular fluke had not happened. I would have thought that anyone with a real interest in science would be absolutely thrilled.
6718. Comment #189199 by txpiper on June 5, 2008 at 7:11 pm
GordonYKWong,Only those hypothesis that stand solid against the heat of scientific scrutiny and mounting evidence can it be deem worthy enough of being a scientific theory.
Natural Selection is still the best model we have up till now
do you consider Canines as a distinct vertebrate class from say Bovines? What about Canines and Cetaceans, are they distinct?
Or do you mean the proper scientific classification of mammals and reptiles and insects, etc., as different vetebrate classes?
6719. Comment #189202 by Frankus1122 on June 5, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Someone had to design and assemble the adaptation catalog.
I gave up trying to explain that the probabilities of this happening on an accidental basis. It is a statistical zero many times over.
6720. Comment #189205 by Frankus1122 on June 5, 2008 at 7:32 pm
6721. Comment #189206 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 7:34 pm
I don't recall if you were around when I noted some of the specialization involved in mammary function. Do you think that it is reasonable to believe that reptiles developed things like this in a long, tedious, coincidental series of beneficial DNA replication errors? This temporary developmental specialty is about independent, cooperative, integrated systems in both parent and offspring. Considering the complexity involved, do you think it is unreasonable to doubt that such fine-tuned features in both generations developed in tandem on an accidental basis?
...Someone had to design and assemble the adaptation catalog. That degree of sophistication, complexity and accuracy can't reasonably be considered accidental.
This is what Darwin did not have the advantage of knowing.
6722. Comment #189212 by qster on June 5, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Sometimes I get the chance to check into the creme de la creme of atheist sites (this one!) to see whats new in the world of atheist thinking and each time I'm dissapointed but not surprised to find that actually nothing is new. In this thread like may others >6700 posts amounts to utter monotony..6723. Comment #189213 by steveroot on June 5, 2008 at 8:18 pm
6701. Comment #188425 by The Reverend Dark on June 4, 2008 at 5:13 am
Do you get some kind of cheap, exhibitionist, thrill at waving your ignornance about like the last turkey in the shop?
6724. Comment #189214 by GordonYKWong on June 5, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Things can only be selected out of the picture. If the full authority of selection is applied to a deck of cards, you could remove everything from 7's on down. That wouldn't turn all the face cards into superheroes. Selection diminishes. It does not enhance or improve.Oh dear, I recommend you reconsider this anlogy as the other commenters would take you to task with this.
6725. Comment #189216 by GordonYKWong on June 5, 2008 at 8:33 pm
I have a problem with believing in a poor idea just because there isn't a more tenable one. It should still be recognized as poor.I'm glad to hear that, since most of us (including you) would recognise the "God created all the land, sea and air creatures in one day" model as a largely poor idea.
If the "feedback" transcription proves out, it will explain the complexity and rapidity of adaptations. I think the complexity of life is resident in the individual DNA profiles of different organisms."Complexity is resident in the DNA, but someone had to design it"? Even if Lamarckian Evolution is true, it in no ways validate a supernatural intelligence. Intelligence of Soma cells, yes. Designer, no.
AND
Someone had to design and assemble the adaptation catalog. That degree of sophistication, complexity and accuracy can't reasonably be considered accidental.
There is impressive variation in each of these (classes of vetebrate: canines and bovines and cetaceans), but I don't think they are related to a common ancestor.Please indulge me while I conduct a thought experiment with you.
6726. Comment #189220 by Quine on June 5, 2008 at 8:49 pm
The fact is that no-one is likely to be convinced to change their mind by such exchanges - many atheists have come to their realisation from an alternative (usually theist) perspective. Any and everyone is exactly where they need to be in terms of their understanding of their existence and the concept of God. All knowledge and understanding is transitory. To place absolute trust in science is a mistake for the same reason.
6727. Comment #189226 by qster on June 5, 2008 at 9:41 pm
The converts corner surely must be populated by people who were becoming aware of a change in their understanding and were looking for an alternative viewpoint. The discovery of this site or any other alternative source of information was made because they were looking for it. If you are not looking for something, its likely you wont see it. maybe there are some exceptions but i doubt it.6728. Comment #189227 by GordonYKWong on June 5, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Do you think that it is reasonable to believe that reptiles developed things like (boobs) in a long, tedious, coincidental series of beneficial DNA replication errors?Yes I think it is reasonable. Cells that begins to lactate is a possible mutation that allows the mutant to thrive by providing a ready protein source to it's descendents.
This temporary developmental specialty is about independent, cooperative, integrated systems in both parent and offspring.Parents providing a food source to the offspring in infancy is apparent in many insects, birds, fish and reptiles. What is so "independent, cooperative, integrated" in mammals that is not in others?
Considering the complexity involved, do you think it is unreasonable to doubt that such fine-tuned features in both generations developed in tandem on an accidental basis?Mutant Parent: Why am I leaking from these funny skin cells? It is awfully unsightly...
6729. Comment #189228 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Sometimes I get the chance to check into the creme de la creme of atheist sites (this one!) to see whats new in the world of atheist thinking and each time I'm dissapointed but not surprised to find that actually nothing is new. In this thread like may others >6700 posts amounts to utter monotony..
Atheist argues "Darwin discovered evolution ergo things evolve without god ergo there is no god"
6730. Comment #189231 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 9:51 pm
The embrace of science is great but people must be aware of its limitations and not regard it as absolute.
6731. Comment #189241 by MaxD on June 5, 2008 at 10:22 pm
6732. Comment #189246 by righton on June 5, 2008 at 10:32 pm
maxD,6733. Comment #189255 by Diacanu on June 5, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Someone had to design and assemble the adaptation catalog. That degree of sophistication, complexity and accuracy can't reasonably be considered accidental.
6734. Comment #189256 by qster on June 5, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Goldy,6735. Comment #189257 by Diacanu on June 5, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Blah, blah, blah, blah...Deepak Chopra...blah, blah, blah...
6736. Comment #189258 by GordonYKWong on June 5, 2008 at 11:05 pm
6735. Comment #189256 by qster on June 5, 2008 at 10:54 pmWhy should they need to? are their habitat threatened? food source depleted? do they have any predators to adapt to?
Although interestingly such creatures like sharks/crocodiles dont appear to have 'evolved' for aeons...why is that?
6737. Comment #189259 by Diacanu on June 5, 2008 at 11:06 pm
...i cant give an example because..
6738. Comment #189260 by MaxD on June 5, 2008 at 11:12 pm
6739. Comment #189352 by The Reverend Dark on June 6, 2008 at 5:21 am
Sure I do. Someone had to design and assemble the adaptation catalog. That degree of sophistication, complexity and accuracy can't reasonably be considered accidental.
This is what Darwin did not have the advantage of knowing. He had to assume that unremarkable little changes just happened. They don't, regardless of whose theory you subscribe to. There has to be a DNA alteration, ultimately resulting in the translation of precisely sequenced functional proteins. I gave up trying to explain that the probabilities of this happening on an accidental basis. It is a statistical zero many times over.
On the differences, I don't recall if you were around when I noted some of the specialization involved in mammary function. Do you think that it is reasonable to believe that reptiles developed things like this in a long, tedious, coincidental series of beneficial DNA replication errors?
6740. Comment #189355 by Tyler Durden on June 6, 2008 at 5:45 am
He says Tiktaalik is 'just a fish.' He is wrong, and too busy tongue kissing his own appendix - to actually look at the evidence.Very true. But I bet txpiper can't explain why his god gave him an appendix in the first place.
6741. Comment #189360 by AllanW on June 6, 2008 at 6:00 am
6742. Comment #189363 by Tyler Durden on June 6, 2008 at 6:05 am
6743. Comment #189398 by Dr Benway on June 6, 2008 at 7:32 am
txpiper: But another serious consideration, which goes back to the fossil issue, would be about how a T-Rex bone could still have detectable soft tissue in it after 68 million years supposedly elapsed.Oxidation requires oxygen.
What mechanism stops small change A plus small change B plus small change C from then combining with small change D, which results in a species separation between pre-A and post-D critters?They also know that there are nevertheless enough helpful ones to bring about tiny changes which add up to significant changes over time, such that the whole of the diversity of life is explained.This is just what some biologists, and you, believe. They do not know any such thing.
6744. Comment #189401 by Frankus1122 on June 6, 2008 at 7:37 am
6745. Comment #189408 by MaxD on June 6, 2008 at 8:07 am
And of course evolution has been around since adam was a boy :-P - things evolve. Although interestingly such creatures like sharks/crocodiles dont appear to have 'evolved' for aeons...why is that?
Much of the argument here are conducted from a this limited perspective, try looking at the world from a different perspective, perhaps not as a discrete human - i cant give an example because its really for the individual to understand when he is ready.
6746. Comment #189409 by Tyler Durden on June 6, 2008 at 8:09 am
Any and everyone is exactly where they need to be in terms of their understanding of their existence and the concept of God.Huh? How do you know this? Did Deepak tell you?
All knowledge and understanding is transitory. To place absolute trust in science is a mistake for the same reason.Really? I reckon gravitational theory might disagree with your lame mumbo-jumbo. But what if you had to undergo a life-saving medical procedure in hospital, you'd be trusting the science of today like your life depended on it.
What the hell is the point of this post I hear you say?You read my mind! Spooky eh? Perhaps you'd like us to sign up for some NLP classes??
6747. Comment #189416 by Diacanu on June 6, 2008 at 8:27 am
6748. Comment #189417 by MaxD on June 6, 2008 at 8:30 am
6749. Comment #189419 by Diacanu on June 6, 2008 at 8:42 am
6750. Comment #189422 by Frankus1122 on June 6, 2008 at 8:47 am
6701. Comment #188434 by Quetzalcoatl on June 4, 2008 at 5:20 am
I'm sure this will make virtually no difference, but there is a fascinating article in New Scientist today which demonstrates evolution in action: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14053-zombie-caterpillars-controlled-by-voodoo-wasps.html
Essentially these parasitic wasps lay eggs inside caterpillars, which then hatch and feed off the caterpillar's internal fluids. Once they reach the cocoon stage they leave and build cocoons nearby. However, some of the larvae remain in the caterpillar, and appear to control its behaviour, using it to keep guard over the cocoons and protect them from predators.
Now there are two explanations for this. The first is evolution. The second is that, in the few thousands of years since the garden of Eden, the wasps somehow rapidly evolved this behaviour and parasitical lifecycle structure. If you believe the latter, that such rapid evolution can occur, then what's the problem with evolution as a whole?
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