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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 6701 - 6750 of 9332 |

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6701. Comment #188434 by Quetzalcoatl on June 4, 2008 at 5:20 am

 avatarTxpiper-

I'm sure this will make virtually no difference, but there is a fascinating article in New Scientist today which demonstrates evolution in action: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14053-zombie-caterpillars-controlled-by-voodoo-wasps.html

Essentially these parasitic wasps lay eggs inside caterpillars, which then hatch and feed off the caterpillar's internal fluids. Once they reach the cocoon stage they leave and build cocoons nearby. However, some of the larvae remain in the caterpillar, and appear to control its behaviour, using it to keep guard over the cocoons and protect them from predators.

Now there are two explanations for this. The first is evolution. The second is that, in the few thousands of years since the garden of Eden, the wasps somehow rapidly evolved this behaviour and parasitical lifecycle structure. If you believe the latter, that such rapid evolution can occur, then what's the problem with evolution as a whole?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

6702. Comment #188777 by Mark Smith on June 4, 2008 at 2:12 pm

txpiper, you said (quoting me first)
They also know that there are nevertheless enough helpful ones to bring about tiny changes which add up to significant changes over time, such that the whole of the diversity of life is explained.

This is just what some biologists, and you, believe. They do not know any such thing.


Ooh goody, semantics and epistemology! Quite often the last resort of the desperate. Knowledge, for scientists, historians and anybody who is at all reasonable, is always somewhat provisional. I like to think of knowledge as well-justified belief. It is always open to the possibility that such belief may become less justified in the light of new evidence and better interpretations. Presumably you are working with some other definition of knowledge, something which allows for assertion without evidence and also allows the discounting of other peoples' well-evidenced assertions.

Currently, biologists hold the well-justified (by all criteria accepted in scientific and academic disciplines) belief that the whole of the diversity of life is explained by evolution by natural selection (though undoubtedly there are certain other 'sub-mechanisms', e.g. genetic drift, that have caused some diversity to some degree). You, on the other hand, appear to hold the highly unjustified beliefs that (a) natural selection causes diversity within species but cannot cross some mysterious ill-defined boundary to bring about new species, and (b) every species which ever existed was created intact by a supernatural and ill-defined force using a mysterious and entirely undefined mechanism. I consider neither of these beliefs should be regarded as 'knowledge' in any useful sense.

Other Comments by Mark Smith

6703. Comment #188849 by txpiper on June 4, 2008 at 7:37 pm

keith,

It would interest me what you would say if you ever came face to face with a world class paleontologist who believes in evolution, as they almost by definition have to.


I would probably ask him/her about the T-Rex that was found with bone and vascular tissue still not fossilized, though it was supposed to be some 68 million years old.

I read most everything that was published on the net about that back in 2005, but I never heard any paleontologist openly state that their dating methods might be suspect, which is of course, exactly what this discovery suggests. But then, as you noted, there is a large degree of "have to" involved in the beliefs of establishment paleontologists.

====

Mark Smith,

You, on the other hand, appear to hold the highly unjustified beliefs that (a) natural selection causes diversity within species but cannot cross some mysterious ill-defined boundary to bring about new species


I don't think the boundary is mysterious or ill-defined. There is all kinds of evidence for variation and adaptation, as you note, within species. There is no molecular level evidence for mutations producing radical new genetic information that results in animals of one class making a transition to another.

All the excitement about something like Tiktaalik (which after all is said and done, was still a fish) is based on relatively superficial morphology. There isn't any demonstrable evidence for a random sequence of DNA replication errors which transformed gills into lungs, fins into limbs, scales into skin or any of the myriad other things necessary to get from this animal to a tetrapod. All of that is perfectly imaginary. There are no fossils to show that this ever happened, and there are no experiments to show that it could have.

Other Comments by txpiper

6704. Comment #188854 by Goldy on June 4, 2008 at 7:53 pm

txpiper, mate, give up. You're wandering around like Ezekiel now, ranting and raving. Heck, you even started out like Ezekiel, come to think of it.
The T.rex tissue was a fluke. They happen. Look at wood - it has been found fossilised and turned to stone. It has been found as coal. And, I do believe it has also been found as....wood. Just serendipidy. I think the great excitement was that it was found as such. Should look up the paper to see what they say about it.
As for Tiktaalik being "still a fish" - how typical. You cretins...sorry, cretinists, scream out for "transitional forms" (stupid really as they are still all aound us) and when you get given one, it's "still a fish" or "still a bird". What do you want us to do? Rip out embryos from a variety of mothers to show the evolutionary sequence occuring in a series of feotuses? Has DNA sequencing completely passed you by? Why do you think people call the hippopotamus a relative of the whale and not of it's namesake? Why is man more closely related to chimpanzees than lemurs?
Of course, thinking the Earth is only, what, 6000 years old does mean it is hard for you to visualise the time scale involved in change. In this age of globalisation, I guess you can't put your mind back to seclusion and isolation of species by moving continents and time.
On another note, can you explain the black squirrels I have read about terrorising UK grey squirrels. And the fact that both are different from the red squirrel. But hey, they are all squirrels, after all - don't illustrate anything.
Fuckwit.

Other Comments by Goldy

6705. Comment #188868 by Diacanu on June 4, 2008 at 9:13 pm

 avatarLook, this snapperhead ignores posts, ignores links, won't read up on the subject, refuses to answer questions, stop engaging the cockmonger.

We've done more than enough for a lurker to see his position is bullshit.

If a fence sitter is still mush-minded after all this, they deserve to be.

Other Comments by Diacanu

6706. Comment #188870 by txpiper on June 4, 2008 at 9:18 pm

Goldy,

The T.rex tissue was a fluke. They happen.

You bet. A fluke. But your attitude reflects an odd disposition towards science, one that I noticed in some other articles I read about this particular T rex specimen. It sounds like you'd prefer that this particular fluke had not happened. I would have thought that anyone with a real interest in science would be absolutely thrilled.

The research is still ongoing on the MOR 1125 T rex. The latest thing I read was about the sequencing of collagen protein from that specimen.

Look at wood - it has been found fossilised and turned to stone. It has been found as coal. And, I do believe it has also been found as....wood.

Yeah, but there have been some wood discovery flukes that would probably find disturbing as well. This one is almost 22 years old:

A recent article by Michael Lemonick in Time magazine reported on the discovery of the remains of an ancient forest on Axel Heiberg Island. The trees had once grown 150 feet tall and lived for as long as 1,000 years (they were so well preserved that the growth rings could be counted). One astonishing thing about the stumps is that they are 45 million years old! A second is that they are not petrified (that is, turned to rock with minerals replacing the cellular wood structure), but are mummified and can actually be burned. This could be explained by rapid burial and deprivation of oxygen, but the biggest riddle of all is how they could have grown there in the first place.
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/788.html

45 million years old. Think what a conversation piece a coffee table made out of this would make.

On another note, can you explain the black squirrels I have read about terrorising UK grey squirrels.

I haven't heard about that. Probably a fluke.

Other Comments by txpiper

6707. Comment #188871 by Frankus1122 on June 4, 2008 at 9:21 pm

 avatartxpiper,
I suggest you watch the video on this thread:
The Challenge of the New Creationism

Other Comments by Frankus1122

6708. Comment #188880 by mordacious1 on June 4, 2008 at 10:06 pm

Man, I'm glad I'm not involved in this thread, I'm getting annoyed just reading this page. From under what petrified tree did this guy crawl out.

Other Comments by mordacious1

6709. Comment #188908 by The Reverend Dark on June 5, 2008 at 1:52 am

 avatarTxpiper gargled

All the excitement about something like Tiktaalik (which after all is said and done, was still a fish) is based on relatively superficial morphology. There isn't any demonstrable evidence for a random sequence of DNA replication errors which transformed gills into lungs, fins into limbs, scales into skin or any of the myriad other things necessary to get from this animal to a tetrapod. All of that is perfectly imaginary. There are no fossils to show that this ever happened, and there are no experiments to show that it could have.


Laughing boy, you are getting desperate; and that desperation seems to include a forlorn hope that no one is going to fact check you. Perhaps in the world of creationist douche-bags this is normal.

Tiktaalik is a lovely example of the transition between fish and amphibians. Your 'superficial morphology' lie is just that, a lie. As brazen as a baboon's bum.

Shall I detail the differences? The mobile neck of tetrapod (able to move indepedendly of the body - something ? Arm like skeletal structure With shoulder, elbow and wrist capable of weight bearing? Spiracle developement? Robust rib structure? These are all tetrapod characteristics; placing Tiktaalik perfectly in between lobed fish and tetrapods. This is a fossil that demonstrates exactly what you say it does not; the transition between lobed fish and early tetrapods (like acanthostega).

In other words, your 'just a fish' comment is based on your own ignorance, and unwillingness to give up your biblical belief; and do not fool yourself, or at the very least try and fool us in that this is anything other than a personal, irrationaly, disbelief based on your own head-up-arse take on creation. Your other posts on special creation, the anti-chirst, and the genesis flood make this quite clear.

http://tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/


More Txpiper twattage

I would probably ask him/her about the T-Rex that was found with bone and vascular tissue still not fossilized, though it was supposed to be some 68 million years old.

I read most everything that was published on the net about that back in 2005, but I never heard any paleontologist openly state that their dating methods might be suspect, which is of course, exactly what this discovery suggests. But then, as you noted, there is a large degree of "have to" involved in the beliefs of establishment paleontologists.


Well, they would likely pat you on the head and explain that the issue is with common usage of the term fossilization (much like the way common usage of the word theory is different than the scientific use of the word theory.)

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/rncse_content/vol25/9035_nonmineralized_tissues_in_fos_12_30_1899.asp

Arsehole.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

6710. Comment #188912 by GordonYKWong on June 5, 2008 at 1:57 am

 avatar
6689. Comment #188284 by txpiper on June 3, 2008 at 6:07 pm

Mutations do occur and natural selection really happens. But I don't think these work the way conventional evolutionary theory says that they do.
In order for us (all of us) to talk on the same page, can I confirm with you about what you have been saying to me in this thread?

I gather that:
  • You agree that mutations occurs;
  • You disagree that the mechanism of mutations of genes is expansive enough to explain the complexity of life (You cite its improbability);
  • Larmarckian Evolution is a possible candidate to explain the complexity of life;

  • You agree that natural selection occurs;
  • You disagree natural selection alone can explain how "some vertebrate classes changing into another";
  • Larmarckian Evolution is a possible candidate to explain how "some vertebrate classes changing into another"?

  • Thus far, you do not believe that there is a supernatural explanation to either issues.
Please feel free to confirm or to correct any of my miscomprehensions. Thanks.

On a side note, you've stated:

First, your theory is yours to prove, not mine to disprove.
As far as I understand it and do correct me if I am wrong, theories are for all of us to disprove, not proved (Mathematic and Logic is where the formal proofs come in). Only those hypothesis that stand solid against the heat of scientific scrutiny and mounting evidence can it be deem worthy enough of being a scientific theory.

And evolution skeptics have done their part to try to disprove Darwin's original theory, but there it stands, beside all of the new evidence, largely intact after 150 years. By all means, it doesn't mean a bright spark in the future cannot turn the theory on it's head (a-la Einstein with gravity), but Natural Selection is still the best model we have up till now.

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6711. Comment #188922 by GordonYKWong on June 5, 2008 at 2:13 am

 avatar
6689. Comment #188284 by txpiper on June 3, 2008 at 6:07 pm

What evidence, if any, could convince you that the process of Natural Selection can be responsible for some "vertebrate classes changing into another"?
That's actually not an easy question to answer. As I see it, there aren't that many categories of evidence that are used to support that idea.
I just want to clarify, do you consider Canines as a distinct vertebrate class from say Bovines? What about Canines and Cetaceans, are they distinct?

Or do you mean the proper scientific classification of mammals and reptiles and insects, etc., as different vetebrate classes?

Other Comments by GordonYKWong

6712. Comment #188929 by Greyman on June 5, 2008 at 2:25 am

6704. Comment #188849 by txpiper on June 4, 2008 at 7:37 pm

I would probably ask him/her about the T-Rex that was found with bone and vascular tissue still not fossilized, though it was supposed to be some 68 million years old.

I read most everything that was published on the net about that back in 2005, but I never heard any paleontologist openly state that their dating methods might be suspect, which is of course, exactly what this discovery suggests. But then, as you noted, there is a large degree of "have to" involved in the beliefs of establishment paleontologists.

It's probably because the discovery doesn't actually suggest that the multiple dating methods used might be wrong at all.  On one hand you have independant radiometric and geochemical data determining the age the fossil and surounding rock formation, on the other all you have is the incredulity that any organic matterial tissue could be preserved so long.

[edit: The Reverend Dark provided a nice link outlining this.]

6707. Comment #188870 by txpiper on June 4, 2008 at 9:18 pm

You bet. A fluke. But your attitude reflects an odd disposition towards science, one that I noticed in some other articles I read about this particular T rex specimen. It sounds like you'd prefer that this particular fluke had not happened. I would have thought that anyone with a real interest in science would be absolutely thrilled.

The research is still ongoing on the MOR 1125 T rex. The latest thing I read was about the sequencing of collagen protein from that specimen.

Yes, and one of the more thrilling results of this is that biochemical comparison of these protiens supports the theory that birds evolved from dinosaurs.

Goldy undoubtably does not prefer that this wonderful fluke did not exists.  His point was that such flukes, though rare, have happened before.



Other Comments by Greyman

6713. Comment #188940 by DamnDirtyApe on June 5, 2008 at 2:42 am

 avatarThere isn't any demonstrable evidence for a random sequence of DNA replication errors which transformed gills into lungs, fins into limbs, scales into skin or any of the myriad other things necessary to get from this animal to a tetrapod. All of that is perfectly imaginary. There are no fossils to show that this ever happened, and there are no experiments to show that it could have.

You're wrong. There have been experiments which show that species (a loose term, read this article) can gain entirely new abilities and functions they have never had.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2669,A-New-Step-In-Evolution,Carl-Zimmer

That experiement was on E.Coli, and it ran for DECADES. That's a single celled bacteria. The process of development for such large complex organs inevitably takes an enormous amount of time. it would be impossible for us to run a controlled experiment on larger animals. Besides, we've performed artificial selection for milenia, we know all about the consequence of slicing and dicing with food and pets.

Your backwards logic is like saying the sun is small because you can block it with your hand. I'd like to point you to something else while i'm here that might help you understand our frustration with your kind of mindset:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lESQ0ejN79I

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

6714. Comment #188943 by Tyler Durden on June 5, 2008 at 2:48 am

 avatartxpiper,

what colour is the sky in your world?

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

6715. Comment #188947 by GordonYKWong on June 5, 2008 at 2:58 am

 avatar
6704. Comment #188849 by txpiper on June 4, 2008 at 7:37 pm

There isn't any demonstrable evidence for a random sequence of DNA replication errors which transformed gills into lungs, fins into limbs, scales into skin or any of the myriad other things necessary to get from this animal to a tetrapod.
Not to be picky but gills are not lungs and scales are not skin. They can be independently evolved, not evolved from one into another.

With fins and limbs, you can look into fossil record for their evolution. I wikied "Fishapod" to see Tetrapodomorpha.

Other Comments by GordonYKWong

6716. Comment #189147 by Mark Smith on June 5, 2008 at 2:33 pm

txpiper, you said
Tiktaalik (which after all is said and done, was still a fish)

This could well be at the heart of your misunderstanding. You want to see 'fish' as some sort of 'thing-in-itself' that god defined at the start and which a creature must be or not be. No doubt this is in some sort of misguided attempt to be faithful to Genesis 1:21, creatures made 'according to their kinds'. But the category 'fish' is just that, a category (like all others) imposed by humans to help us make sense of things. It could be defined differently, in which case different creatures would be in and others out.

We might, for example, define 'birds' simply as 'creatures which fly in the air'. Then bats would be birds. (In fact this is what the creation poem that is Genesis 1 seems to do: splitting all creatures into 3 categories according to whether they live in water [being 'the great sea monsters' or things 'with which the waters swarm, v21] or in the air ['the birds', v22] or on the earth [v24].)

The point is that, in contrast to Genesis, there is no absolute, 'god-given' type to which a creature must conform. Instead there is a continuum. The classic example being the herring gull (quoting Wikipedia):
The taxonomy of the Herring Gull / Lesser Black-backed Gull complex is very complicated, different authorities recognising between two and eight species.

This group has a ring distribution around the northern hemisphere. Differences between adjacent forms in this ring are fairly small, but by the time the circuit is completed, the end members, Herring Gull and Lesser Black-backed Gull, are clearly different species.


So when people talk about one 'species' evolving into another, what they are actually talking about is a continuum of creatures with small differences between parent and offspring, such that with each birth it makes no sense to say the parent is species A and direct offspring is species B (or indeed that offspring is 'transitional form'). But on the other hand, it does help us make sense of the world to say that the group of creatures with such and such features are species A, while those with certain other (perhaps similar, but nevertheless different) features are species B.

If you can come to terms with the way our need to categorise things can sometimes mislead us you might begin to understand evolutionary theory better.

Other Comments by Mark Smith

6717. Comment #189166 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 3:30 pm

Sorry for the delay in replying to comment #188870 - moving house and now I have a cold! Bloody mutating viri (but hey, that's evolution for you!)
You bet. A fluke. But your attitude reflects an odd disposition towards science, one that I noticed in some other articles I read about this particular T rex specimen. It sounds like you'd prefer that this particular fluke had not happened. I would have thought that anyone with a real interest in science would be absolutely thrilled.

Not quite sure where you get the idea I didn't want this to happen. It's a brilliant discovery! I dare say a cretinist like you would prefer it not to happen - it does show that these creatures not mentioned in the Bible but grudgingly admitted to Ken Ham's Flintstone's Museum was actually a creature we can compare with today's creatures.
Your tree thing is confusing. How could the trees have grown there 45 million years ago? Ummmm, seeds spring rapidly to mind... As for old wood conversation pieces, I regularly partake of fine ales in a pub called Galbraiths here in Auckland. They are served to me over a bar, the top of which is a 60 000 (yes, sixty thousand) year old piece of kauri. Swamp kauri, it's called. Oddly, pretty much as your wood described above...albeit a bit younger :-)

Other Comments by Goldy

6718. Comment #189199 by txpiper on June 5, 2008 at 7:11 pm

GordonYKWong,

On your list of points:

-"You agree that mutations occurs"

Of course, but with the qualifications I've noted.


-"You disagree that the mechanism of mutations of genes is expansive enough to explain the complexity of life (You cite its improbability)"

That is correct.


-"Larmarckian Evolution is a possible candidate to explain the complexity of life"

If the "feedback" transcription proves out, it will explain the complexity and rapidity of adaptations. I think the complexity of life is resident in the individual DNA profiles of different organisms.


-"You agree that natural selection occurs"

That is also correct.


-"You disagree natural selection alone can explain how "some vertebrate classes changing into another" "

Of course I do. Natural selection can't produce anything. Selection has been blown all out of proportion. I often see the word used in technical articles with inordinate discriminating power being ascribed to the concept. Things can only be selected out of the picture. If the full authority of selection is applied to a deck of cards, you could remove everything from 7's on down. That wouldn't turn all the face cards into superheroes. Selection diminishes. It does not enhance or improve.


-"Larmarckian Evolution is a possible candidate to explain how "some vertebrate classes changing into another"?"

Not at all in my view. It only calls on information that is already in the host DNA.


-"Thus far, you do not believe that there is a supernatural explanation to either issues."

Sure I do. Someone had to design and assemble the adaptation catalog. That degree of sophistication, complexity and accuracy can't reasonably be considered accidental.

This is what Darwin did not have the advantage of knowing. He had to assume that unremarkable little changes just happened. They don't, regardless of whose theory you subscribe to. There has to be a DNA alteration, ultimately resulting in the translation of precisely sequenced functional proteins. I gave up trying to explain that the probabilities of this happening on an accidental basis. It is a statistical zero many times over.


Only those hypothesis that stand solid against the heat of scientific scrutiny and mounting evidence can it be deem worthy enough of being a scientific theory.

In the case of evolutionary theory, there are both limits on scrutiny, and accommodations for absurd conclusions. If you've never read Lewontin's candid explanation of materialist devotion, I'll be glad to post it for you.

Natural Selection is still the best model we have up till now

I explained what I think about selection, but on this default principle, I have a problem with believing in a poor idea just because there isn't a more tenable one. It should still be recognized as poor.

do you consider Canines as a distinct vertebrate class from say Bovines? What about Canines and Cetaceans, are they distinct?

Of course. There is impressive variation in each of these, but I don't think they are related to a common ancestor.

Or do you mean the proper scientific classification of mammals and reptiles and insects, etc., as different vetebrate classes?

Excepting insects, of course. On the differences, I don't recall if you were around when I noted some of the specialization involved in mammary function. Do you think that it is reasonable to believe that reptiles developed things like this in a long, tedious, coincidental series of beneficial DNA replication errors? This temporary developmental specialty is about independent, cooperative, integrated systems in both parent and offspring. Considering the complexity involved, do you think it is unreasonable to doubt that such fine-tuned features in both generations developed in tandem on an accidental basis?

Other Comments by txpiper

6719. Comment #189202 by Frankus1122 on June 5, 2008 at 7:26 pm

 avatar
Someone had to design and assemble the adaptation catalog.

I gave up trying to explain that the probabilities of this happening on an accidental basis. It is a statistical zero many times over.


I am a little bit tired now but I seem to recall you being shown where you were in error in this regard. This was not refuted by you, other than you reasserting your inability to believe it.
You simply ignore evidence.
I think the chances of you understanding just how flawed your reasoning is "is a statistical zero many times over."

Other Comments by Frankus1122

6720. Comment #189205 by Frankus1122 on June 5, 2008 at 7:32 pm

 avatartxpiper,
I assume you have read this post?
http://richarddawkins.net/article,2669,A-New-Step-In-Evolution,Carl-Zimmer

Other Comments by Frankus1122

6721. Comment #189206 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 7:34 pm

I don't recall if you were around when I noted some of the specialization involved in mammary function. Do you think that it is reasonable to believe that reptiles developed things like this in a long, tedious, coincidental series of beneficial DNA replication errors? This temporary developmental specialty is about independent, cooperative, integrated systems in both parent and offspring. Considering the complexity involved, do you think it is unreasonable to doubt that such fine-tuned features in both generations developed in tandem on an accidental basis?

Check out the duckbilled platypus. It's all in it's genome...

...Someone had to design and assemble the adaptation catalog. That degree of sophistication, complexity and accuracy can't reasonably be considered accidental.

This is what Darwin did not have the advantage of knowing.

Call me obtuse, but the idea that God did it goes back a few millenia. Darwin did have the advantage of knowing - all he had to do was read Genesis (and ignore the odd inconsistency).
Txpiper, why do some some animals appear to share more DNA with other animals than with others. The hippopotamus and the whale are of particular interest to me. Why is the hippo "closer" to the whale than it is to the horse? Please answer this - you keep dodging this issue with your Ezekielisms.

Other Comments by Goldy

6722. Comment #189212 by qster on June 5, 2008 at 8:14 pm

Sometimes I get the chance to check into the creme de la creme of atheist sites (this one!) to see whats new in the world of atheist thinking and each time I'm dissapointed but not surprised to find that actually nothing is new. In this thread like may others >6700 posts amounts to utter monotony..

Theist proposes god (intelligent force) designed and continues to design all living things...

Atheist argues "Darwin discovered evolution ergo things evolve without god ergo there is no god"

Occasionally there are intelligent comments on both sides but mostly the argument collapses into a series of infinitely detailed discussions about DNA replications sprinked with offensive/arrogant one liners from atheists who think they have found the ultimate truth and therfore everyone else should believe same.
The fact is that no-one is likely to be convinced to change their mind by such exchanges - many atheists have come to their realisation from an alternative (usually theist) perspective. Any and everyone is exactly where they need to be in terms of their understanding of their existence and the concept of God. All knowledge and understanding is transitory. To place absolute trust in science is a mistake for the same reason.
What the hell is the point of this post I hear you say?
Only to say that it is worth considering an alternative view point that somewhere between Theist and Atheist lies a world of possibilities. The likes of Eckhart Tolle, Deepak Chopra and so many others have explored this area. But if you are looking for science to provide you with proof before you 'understand' (its not about belief) then you may not find it ever - you must come to your own realisation about what is right, until then you are where you are. Perhaps this site could explore the boundaries where science meets philosophy. Until then have a look at the future of humans
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6057734.stm

Other Comments by qster

6723. Comment #189213 by steveroot on June 5, 2008 at 8:18 pm

 avatar
6701. Comment #188425 by The Reverend Dark on June 4, 2008 at 5:13 am

Do you get some kind of cheap, exhibitionist, thrill at waving your ignornance about like the last turkey in the shop?

Reverend, I've long given up hope of seeing any real progress on this thread, but I keep coming back for things like this. Clearly, you are inspired by the Semolinaceous tentacles of the FSM.
Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

6724. Comment #189214 by GordonYKWong on June 5, 2008 at 8:22 pm

 avatartxpiper,

thanks for your considered response. As there is much to digest I will respond post by post rather than in one shot. Hope you do not mind.

I asked for many clarifications because I want to ascertain whether you are a creationist/ID proponent or a hyper evolution skeptic, as I see a distinction between the two.

Would you, based on your answers to my questions, label yourself as a creationist of the Christian flavour?

First thing first, you have this to say about Natural Selection:

Things can only be selected out of the picture. If the full authority of selection is applied to a deck of cards, you could remove everything from 7's on down. That wouldn't turn all the face cards into superheroes. Selection diminishes. It does not enhance or improve.
Oh dear, I recommend you reconsider this anlogy as the other commenters would take you to task with this.

It does not "enhance or improve" because now you have half a deck of cards.

If on the other hand, the cards can replicate (either sexually or asexually), the descendents will now carry the charateristics of their parents (fitness). With no limit on the population size i.e. they are not bound to a 52 cards scenario, you quickly see how they can be "enhance or improve" exponentially.

Other Comments by GordonYKWong

6725. Comment #189216 by GordonYKWong on June 5, 2008 at 8:33 pm

 avatartxpiper,

secondly, you have this to say about Evolution by NS:

I have a problem with believing in a poor idea just because there isn't a more tenable one. It should still be recognized as poor.
I'm glad to hear that, since most of us (including you) would recognise the "God created all the land, sea and air creatures in one day" model as a largely poor idea.

You agreed that NS occurs to a degree, and thus it is a better explanation of diversity (if not complexity) than a creationist model.

Thirdly, I have trouble reconciling these two statements:
If the "feedback" transcription proves out, it will explain the complexity and rapidity of adaptations. I think the complexity of life is resident in the individual DNA profiles of different organisms.

AND

Someone had to design and assemble the adaptation catalog. That degree of sophistication, complexity and accuracy can't reasonably be considered accidental.
"Complexity is resident in the DNA, but someone had to design it"? Even if Lamarckian Evolution is true, it in no ways validate a supernatural intelligence. Intelligence of Soma cells, yes. Designer, no.

Fourth point, you have said that you do not agree that NS can cause "vertebrate classes changing into another":

There is impressive variation in each of these (classes of vetebrate: canines and bovines and cetaceans), but I don't think they are related to a common ancestor.
Please indulge me while I conduct a thought experiment with you.

Let's clone a set of bovine vetebrates, and put one set on one island and the other set on another.

You can play "Mother Nature" and fiddle with the two islands' habitat, climate pattern, food source, predatory source, competitor source. You set both island to be distinct in those attributes.

You let the two set of bovines to replicate sexually over many generations. As you agreed to Natural Selection to a degree, you can imagine that after a while they begin to show variations in both set that is independent of each other (despite sharing common ancestors).

Question:
  1. How many generations (hypothetically) would you need before the two sets can be considered two separate species? ie. they can no longer mate due to say, genital differences, like say a deer and a water buffolo.

  2. How many generations (hypothetically) would you need before the two sets can be considered two separate vetebrate class? ie. one set became omnivorous and the other set acquire an aquatic lifestyle like cetaceans?

  3. How can you tell if they are indeed in separate vetebrate classes?

  4. How can you tell if they share the same ancestor as they do?


Edit: clarity.

Other Comments by GordonYKWong

6726. Comment #189220 by Quine on June 5, 2008 at 8:49 pm

 avatarqster:
The fact is that no-one is likely to be convinced to change their mind by such exchanges - many atheists have come to their realisation from an alternative (usually theist) perspective. Any and everyone is exactly where they need to be in terms of their understanding of their existence and the concept of God. All knowledge and understanding is transitory. To place absolute trust in science is a mistake for the same reason.


Some people are convinced, as is shown in the Converts' Corner testimonials on this site. This is more likely for the readers of these threads than those who are doing the arguing. Watching someone have his/her points exposed to the light of evidence effects others even when the truth is ignored by the willfully ignorant.

Also, there is plenty of discussion of philosophy re science. Go read the Fleabytes thread. Science provides a way of finding out things that we can rely on (have predictive power). Science does not exclude the existence of other truth, but if you step outside science to find that truth, you have no way to be sure you are not drinking the Kool-Aid.

Other Comments by Quine

6727. Comment #189226 by qster on June 5, 2008 at 9:41 pm

The converts corner surely must be populated by people who were becoming aware of a change in their understanding and were looking for an alternative viewpoint. The discovery of this site or any other alternative source of information was made because they were looking for it. If you are not looking for something, its likely you wont see it. maybe there are some exceptions but i doubt it.
Science is governed by the human quest for information and as such is designed by humans to discover and measure what is observable and measureable by humans using the technology available. That is great and perfectly valid but should not rule out the inherent capacity of the human to be consciously aware of things that are unmeasureable yet real and understood to the individual. The embrace of science is great but people must be aware of its limitations and not regard it as absolute.

Other Comments by qster

6728. Comment #189227 by GordonYKWong on June 5, 2008 at 9:42 pm

 avatartxpiper,

You disagree that the mechanism of mutations of genes is expansive enough to explain the complexity of life. I think you cite that most mutations are harmful and neutral, causing the mutant to perish or simply survive but do not pass on their mutation.

But if one beneficial mutation does crop up, even in a one-in-a-trillion situation, (say cells in a fishes' throat can begin to absord oxygen vapour rather than those dissolved in water) that mutancy might give the mutant access to a new source of food and/or haven from predators etc. That mutant will not only survive, but thrive.


So regarding my favorite subjects, mammary glands :-D

Do you think that it is reasonable to believe that reptiles developed things like (boobs) in a long, tedious, coincidental series of beneficial DNA replication errors?
Yes I think it is reasonable. Cells that begins to lactate is a possible mutation that allows the mutant to thrive by providing a ready protein source to it's descendents.

This temporary developmental specialty is about independent, cooperative, integrated systems in both parent and offspring.
Parents providing a food source to the offspring in infancy is apparent in many insects, birds, fish and reptiles. What is so "independent, cooperative, integrated" in mammals that is not in others?

Considering the complexity involved, do you think it is unreasonable to doubt that such fine-tuned features in both generations developed in tandem on an accidental basis?
Mutant Parent: Why am I leaking from these funny skin cells? It is awfully unsightly...
Offspring: I'm hungry, I wish I have something to eat... oh look, here is something i can try to eat...

How is that complex? fine-tuned?

Other Comments by GordonYKWong

6729. Comment #189228 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 9:42 pm

Sometimes I get the chance to check into the creme de la creme of atheist sites (this one!) to see whats new in the world of atheist thinking and each time I'm dissapointed but not surprised to find that actually nothing is new. In this thread like may others >6700 posts amounts to utter monotony..

Methinks you'll find a lot of the monotony is due to theists (a huge majority Christians) simply not understanding/reading/accepting the scientific reasoning. To them, it is all "God did it". I think you'd understand this lack or rationality, you being one of the deluded...(Edit - oops, didn't mean that! Thought you were someone else! 10000000 apologies!!!)
Atheist argues "Darwin discovered evolution ergo things evolve without god ergo there is no god"

I'm not sure that is strictly what is said, is it? As it is, Darwin didn't discover it alone - Wallace was there and I do believe the seeds of the Theory of Evolution were around before that. Certainly farmers over the preceding millenia understood the concept well enough.
An athiest mostly says there is no god because it doesn't seem possible. The theist tells us that God is unknowable (always a Christian, did I mention that?) so he must exist - that makes as much sense as a chocolate spoon!

Other Comments by Goldy

6730. Comment #189231 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 9:51 pm

The embrace of science is great but people must be aware of its limitations and not regard it as absolute.

That's why it deals in theories which can be refuted :-) I don't think it really is regarded as absolute - after all, isn't that one of the "failings" thrown at scientific research by the dogmatists?

Other Comments by Goldy

6731. Comment #189241 by MaxD on June 5, 2008 at 10:22 pm

 avatarReverend,
I think the moment came when Txpiper said Tiktaalik was just a fish. It was at that point I thought hmmmmmm this guy knows nothing and will try to, sans expertise, to change definitions, and in fact just make shit up to make his case that that evolutionary theory is weak in some regard.

He has no idea why Tiktaalik is an important find, or seeing that it is in fact important, and the that the method of such discoveries damns his case entirely, choses to ignore the importance, and significance of it. This is utterly tedious as is his triumphalism. How many times must he be kicked in his intellectual testes before he realizes he has no case.

Flood geology for instance cannot account for the kind of predictablity that we see in the fossil record. It just doesn't have those kind of chops. What we see in the record is actually predicted by evolutionary theory. This alone dooms any literalist reading of Christian mythology. In fact, as anyone who has read Genesis knows, all such literal readings are doomed by everything that we do know about the Cosmos. Anyone who would cling, in the face of the overwelming evidence, to such views I think has marginalized themselves from the adult table.

Other Comments by MaxD

6732. Comment #189246 by righton on June 5, 2008 at 10:32 pm

maxD,

As I said earlier, txpiper is just playing word games. He changes definitions to fit his arguments.

Other Comments by righton

6733. Comment #189255 by Diacanu on June 5, 2008 at 10:53 pm

 avatartxpiper-


Someone had to design and assemble the adaptation catalog. That degree of sophistication, complexity and accuracy can't reasonably be considered accidental.


Okay, you've admitted this much, take the next step and answer my question.

How did "the designer", do it?

Little molecular wrenches?

How can we test for this?

Other Comments by Diacanu

6734. Comment #189256 by qster on June 5, 2008 at 10:54 pm

Goldy,
you are one of the more considered of the contributors to this site and good on you for that. I understand the lack of rationality completely - no problems there - but that is a result of a nonsense argument. Using current science to try and demonstrate that a God does not exist is like the joke about the old Irish fella when asked for directions...he says 'Well....Oi wouldnt start from here...
I feel that the argument is pointless, circular and will never end because it is based on a false start. Its easy to demonstrate that the God of the bible doesnt exist, easy to pick on huge inconsistencies in the bible - it was written over a period of many years by many different authors each with an agenda - it was only ever used as a tool of control by those that claimed the only way to 'heaven' was through the church etc etc. Dawkins to his credit has done that one to death however arrogant it reads.
Much of the argument here are conducted from a this limited perspective, try looking at the world from a different perspective, perhaps not as a discrete human - i cant give an example because its really for the individual to understand when he is ready.

And of course evolution has been around since adam was a boy :-P - things evolve. Although interestingly such creatures like sharks/crocodiles dont appear to have 'evolved' for aeons...why is that?

Other Comments by qster

6735. Comment #189257 by Diacanu on June 5, 2008 at 10:56 pm

 avatarqster-


Blah, blah, blah, blah...Deepak Chopra...blah, blah, blah...


*Sarcastic clapping*

That was lovely.

Now go play in traffic.

Other Comments by Diacanu

6736. Comment #189258 by GordonYKWong on June 5, 2008 at 11:05 pm

 avatar
6735. Comment #189256 by qster on June 5, 2008 at 10:54 pm

Although interestingly such creatures like sharks/crocodiles dont appear to have 'evolved' for aeons...why is that?
Why should they need to? are their habitat threatened? food source depleted? do they have any predators to adapt to?

This is akin to asking, "if humans are evolved from apes, why are there still apes around?"

Other Comments by GordonYKWong

6737. Comment #189259 by Diacanu on June 5, 2008 at 11:06 pm

 avatarqster-


...i cant give an example because..


Like all new-agey boneheads, you're full of shit.

Other Comments by Diacanu

6738. Comment #189260 by MaxD on June 5, 2008 at 11:12 pm

 avatarRighton,
When you said that, you were of course correct sir!

Other Comments by MaxD

6739. Comment #189352 by The Reverend Dark on June 6, 2008 at 5:21 am

 avatarTXPIPER

Sure I do. Someone had to design and assemble the adaptation catalog. That degree of sophistication, complexity and accuracy can't reasonably be considered accidental.

This is what Darwin did not have the advantage of knowing. He had to assume that unremarkable little changes just happened. They don't, regardless of whose theory you subscribe to. There has to be a DNA alteration, ultimately resulting in the translation of precisely sequenced functional proteins. I gave up trying to explain that the probabilities of this happening on an accidental basis. It is a statistical zero many times over.


You didn't try and explain laughing boy, you asserted without evidence. While at the same time poncing on about an imaginary friend, for which there is not evidence, testing mechanism, etc, who is responsible for doing so. Your above assertion demonstrates, once again that you still seek to misrepresent the core of evolutionary theory. Mutation is random; selection is non random. Complexity develops over time; this is demonstrated quite clearly in the fossil record (which you know so very little about); and can be demonstrated under laboratory conditions - the recent article on e-coli was brought to your attention.


On the differences, I don't recall if you were around when I noted some of the specialization involved in mammary function. Do you think that it is reasonable to believe that reptiles developed things like this in a long, tedious, coincidental series of beneficial DNA replication errors?


Well laughing boy, I do happen to know that you were around, when your assertion on the improbability of breasts was thoroughly refuted, but like all you head-arse-creationist-arsewipery, you gloss over the facts (facts, not assertions laughing boy) presented to you in favor of your own biblically inspired, imaginary-friend centric, deluded, point of view.

For those who may have missed it, and TXpiper, because I just enjoy showing what an ignorant, clueless pillock he is. Laughing boy, your own incredulity is not an argument, especially when buttressed with an imaginary friend (encompassing a global flood, supernatural ooga-booga, supernatural anti-christ, etc.).

Without further ado - Boobies!
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/05/breast_beginnings.php

Max: I am not arguing with laughing boy because I think he will benefit from it. I don't. I doubt he has the backbone to apply himself to a serious examination of his own beliefs. He has his god, he has his dick in his hand, he's a happy boy.

I do enjoy pointing out his inanity, intellecutal failings, and lack of knowledge on the subjects he seeks to speak on. While openly mocking his assertions of supernatural arsewipery (like the flood of genesis, antichrist, a designer god) in the face of evidence that openly refutes it.

He says Tiktaalik is 'just a fish.' He is wrong, and too busy tongue kissing his own appendix - to actually look at the evidence.

The git.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

6740. Comment #189355 by Tyler Durden on June 6, 2008 at 5:45 am

 avatarComment #189352 by The Reverend Dark:
He says Tiktaalik is 'just a fish.' He is wrong, and too busy tongue kissing his own appendix - to actually look at the evidence.
Very true. But I bet txpiper can't explain why his god gave him an appendix in the first place.

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6741. Comment #189360 by AllanW on June 6, 2008 at 6:00 am

 avatarqster;

Thanks for the elegant writing. Shame it's in such a venal and unworthy cause.

The essence of your view is here;

qster; 'Much of the argument here are conducted from a this limited perspective, try looking at the world from a different perspective, perhaps not as a discrete human - i cant give an example because its really for the individual to understand when he is ready. '

Subjective, untestable, individual, anecdotal, unverifiable. That about sums it up. It's part of the 'unknowable supernatural world'. Yeh, right.

Nobody has a problem with a 'personal god'. It's untestable. As long as it stays there nobody else on the planet gives a fuck. But when you extend that concept one inch towards 'So you must accept it as well' or 'But he does affect other things now' (grants prayer/wishes, affects any aspect of the cosmos) you take your idea into the real world where it can be tested and verified.

Why don't you accept this view?

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6742. Comment #189363 by Tyler Durden on June 6, 2008 at 6:05 am

 avatarqster,

How did you enjoy reading "The Secret"??

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6743. Comment #189398 by Dr Benway on June 6, 2008 at 7:32 am

 avatar
txpiper: But another serious consideration, which goes back to the fossil issue, would be about how a T-Rex bone could still have detectable soft tissue in it after 68 million years supposedly elapsed.
Oxidation requires oxygen.
They also know that there are nevertheless enough helpful ones to bring about tiny changes which add up to significant changes over time, such that the whole of the diversity of life is explained.
This is just what some biologists, and you, believe. They do not know any such thing.
What mechanism stops small change A plus small change B plus small change C from then combining with small change D, which results in a species separation between pre-A and post-D critters?

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6744. Comment #189401 by Frankus1122 on June 6, 2008 at 7:37 am

 avatarTyler Durden and Allan W,
I think the qster forgot to mention the self congratulatory nature of this site as another of its short comings.
Good job guys!
The Secret :)

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6745. Comment #189408 by MaxD on June 6, 2008 at 8:07 am

 avatarQster,

And of course evolution has been around since adam was a boy :-P - things evolve. Although interestingly such creatures like sharks/crocodiles dont appear to have 'evolved' for aeons...why is that?

Actually this is more than mildly untrue. There are hosts of sharks that are no longer with us that were evolved to specialize on various food stuffs that no longer seem to exist. So sharks have evolved and throughout their history.

Also we can not be sure about the kinds of things that don't fossilize so well, like behavior, and physiological processes.

But you make a good point I guess, that is solved by the fact that they-sharks-have hit upon an excellent strategy and body plan that has broad applicability.

Your desire for something is tedious though.
Much of the argument here are conducted from a this limited perspective, try looking at the world from a different perspective, perhaps not as a discrete human - i cant give an example because its really for the individual to understand when he is ready.

Here you are asking us to look beyond the petty instantiations of God envisioned by various uneducated people and see.....what?

What perspective would you like us to use to see....what? What you neglect to realize is that all ways of knowing the divine seem to stem from the same basic falsehood. If you enjoy mystery the universe will give you plenty of that. But if you want to attach an unwarranted agency to it then you are going to have to pony up and produce some evidence for it, of state plainly the foloowing. "I think there is a purpose to all the universe though I know I cannot prove it. It just feels so right"

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6746. Comment #189409 by Tyler Durden on June 6, 2008 at 8:09 am

 avatarSome new-age warbling from qster:
Any and everyone is exactly where they need to be in terms of their understanding of their existence and the concept of God.
Huh? How do you know this? Did Deepak tell you?

All knowledge and understanding is transitory. To place absolute trust in science is a mistake for the same reason.
Really? I reckon gravitational theory might disagree with your lame mumbo-jumbo. But what if you had to undergo a life-saving medical procedure in hospital, you'd be trusting the science of today like your life depended on it.

What the hell is the point of this post I hear you say?
You read my mind! Spooky eh? Perhaps you'd like us to sign up for some NLP classes??

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6747. Comment #189416 by Diacanu on June 6, 2008 at 8:27 am

 avatarSo, does anyone think txpiper will answer me, or will he just blindly keep plowing foreward with his deluded assertion that nitpicking evolution constitutes automatic proof of magic?

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6748. Comment #189417 by MaxD on June 6, 2008 at 8:30 am

 avatarDiacanu,
That second choice.

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6750. Comment #189422 by Frankus1122 on June 6, 2008 at 8:47 am

 avatarDiacanu,
I believe the chances of you getting an answer are about the same as random mutation and natural selection producing tits. At least the same in txpiper's mind. Which is a rather long winded way of saying that your chances of getting an answer are "a statistical zero many times over."

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