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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure — that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 8751 - 8800 of 9309 |

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8751. Comment #207458 by 8teist on July 9, 2008 at 9:36 pm

 avatarTxpiper, still waiting for evidence that proves the existence of your god or whatever created your god .

Other Comments by 8teist

8752. Comment #207463 by Quine on July 9, 2008 at 10:25 pm

 avatartxpiper:
Stuff like this does not even scratch at proving evolution, and things like crocodiles which haven't budged for supposedly over a hundred million years are not helpful either.


Drop the crocodiles and any other species you might think have not changed in a long time. Even if that were true, it is nothing against the ToE. I posted a blog entry explaining further.

Other Comments by Quine

8753. Comment #207467 by Goldy on July 9, 2008 at 10:39 pm

 avatar
Considering the "mountains of evidence" for evolution

Personal incredulity and speculation do not make evidence.
And are you SURE crocodiles have not changed? Or are you looking at a damn similar animal and making a speculation? Come to think of it, are we so different from chimps? I dare say (and here I speculate) we would be seen as merely another ape. Do you think you are a chimp, Chump?

Other Comments by Goldy

8754. Comment #207560 by Tyler Durden on July 10, 2008 at 2:46 am

 avatar
Mark Smith: Txpiper, any logical arguments for the existence of God yet?
Comment #207455 by txpiper
But personally, I think prophecies, weighed against probabilities, are compelling evidence.
So that's a no then.

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

8755. Comment #207572 by Steve Zara on July 10, 2008 at 2:57 am

 avatartxpiper-
I have no idea.


I thought not.

There is no reasonable answer, just like you don't have one for how all the matter and energy in the universe was supposedly compacted to the size of a nucleus of an atom before the big bang.


It wasn't actually. It was FAR, FAR smaller than that.

Actually, you are completely right here. We don't know. Do you know what that means? It means we aren't in a position to say "God did it".

And, as you now, finally admit, neither are you.

Unless you can say how it happened, you can't make the connection to God.

Your saying that if it can last a million, then 68 million is not a problem. I shouldn't have to point out that the further out you go, the more unrealistic it gets, and vice-versa. In other words, lasting thousands of years is plausible and lasting millions of years is not.


You just don't get it. You are asking us to reject millions of pieces of evidence based on this one. For that to be the case, you would have to definitely limit the time organic material to within 6000 years or so.

As soon as it is allowed to extend past 6000 years or so, your entire justification for using it to back your idea fails completely. This isn't about evolution being right - it is about you being clearly wrong.

I am hardly alone in my opinion. There are lots of bright folks who do not accept the establishment paradigm.


No, you really are virtually alone. Even if hundreds agree with you, it barely registers against the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of scientists who don't.

And there are committed evolutionists whose assessment is much more candid than yours, like this guy in a recent article I posted the link to not long ago:


You aren't answering the question. You can't just cherry pick views to suit your theory, unless you are yourself a trained scientist with a good publication record.

So, please answer the question:

I want to know why you consider that your opinion should be rated above those of Einstein, Dawkins, Watson, Crick, Hawking and hundreds of thousands of others.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

8756. Comment #207589 by irate_atheist on July 10, 2008 at 3:21 am

 avatar8802. Comment #207455 by txpiper -

To summarise Dr. Zara's position in words that even you may be capable of understanding: You are a fuckwit. Get over it.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

8757. Comment #207603 by Tyler Durden on July 10, 2008 at 3:47 am

 avatartxpiper,

Just out of curiosity, how is your "global flood" myth any different to the global flood myth contained within the Sumerian creation myth?

The Sumerian one is older, far older. Yet yours reads almost the same. Replace Ea (or Enki) for Yahweh, and Zi-ud-sura (or Atra-hasis) for Noah.

There's a giant storm, and an ark, and animals. Deities (or a deity) create all animals and human beings, but somehow people anger the god(s), so they decide to wipe out the world with a global flood. Oooh scary!!

A divine being (Morgan Freeman) warns one pious person (Steve Carell) of the impending flood and tells him to build a very large boat, and with it he preserves the animals and mankind from extinction. In the end the god(s) reward him for his actions.

The End.

Once again, Christianity receives zero points for originality.

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

8758. Comment #207789 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 7:18 am

I, for one, am very impressed by your stamina, txpiper. You show the patience of a person with great faith, and I commend you for it.

However, I am a little concerned that you have tied your faith to a literal interpretation of scriptures that, while vetted by God, cannot be perfect since they are written in the language of the fallen.

I would council you to put your faith in the living, loving Christ, and look at the Bible as a glass through which we see darkly. I worry that if you should be persuaded that the earth is billions of years old, you will lose your faith because you put it in a book instead of God Himself. Could you please comment?

~~~

I mean no offense, but your continued stalwart presence here, even after positing that ridiculous ice shield theory, made me think of this inspirational photograph: http://tinyurl.com/67ehmw

Other Comments by Kardashovel

8759. Comment #207799 by Tyler Durden on July 10, 2008 at 7:27 am

 avatarKardashovel,

Assuming this Christ of yours ever existed, and if he were to return (still waiting btw), would he still be 5ft 4in in height, as was the average height of males 2,000 years ago.

Just wondering.

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

8760. Comment #207802 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 7:29 am

Are you saying Jesus was just an average guy, Tyler?

Other Comments by Kardashovel

8761. Comment #207807 by alan baylis on July 10, 2008 at 7:33 am

8802. Comment #207455 by txpiper

That doesn't answer the question, and you know it. I would like an answer please. How does God actually make the creatures?
I have no idea. You guys love to ask this question as if someone is going to tell you He uses a particle accelerator the size of a galaxy. There is no reasonable answer,







Of course there is no reasonable answer in your world-view, except to say that god JUST did it and that's the end of it!

But evolutionary science has reasonable answers to these questions. It also has answers to your questions concerning the purpose of interim parts of organs during evolution, but of course you have to take the trouble to search these answers out.

On another thread there are some of your Muslim counterparts giving us the benefit of their beliefs. They are rather spine chilling I think. Even so I can't see that much difference in their creationist views and yours, except that they are more up front about it than you. Looking at them should remind us that we do not have to look to far to see what the effects are on nations when theism gets the upper hand over reason.



http://richarddawkins.net/article,2833,UPDATED-Venomous-Snakes-Slippery-Eels-and-Harun-Yahya,Richard-Dawkins

Other Comments by alan baylis

8762. Comment #207814 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 7:38 am

I mean no offense, but your continued stalwart presence here, even after positing that ridiculous ice shield theory, made me think of this inspirational photograph: http://tinyurl.com/67ehmw


I suspect that the Reverend Dark would also find the photo very interesting... assuming the photo was taken in the morning, the northbound runner has persevered in spite of his southbound mutton stew having migrated to all points of the compass.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

8763. Comment #207815 by Tyler Durden on July 10, 2008 at 7:38 am

 avatarWell, to be honest Kardashovel, I'm not convinced he ever existed. It's a great story, but, the evidence is weak for Jesus, and every civilsation has some "Messiah" complex/myth.

But I was watching The History Channel last night and they mentioned an archaeological dig going on in Israel at the moment, due to skeletal remains, etc, they can gauge the height of males from that time to approx. 5ft 4in - anyhoo, it made me chuckle.

BTW, do you get your age of the Earth as 6,000 years from Archbishop James Ussher's work?

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

8764. Comment #207816 by hungarianelephant on July 10, 2008 at 7:39 am

 avatarIf he existed, Jesus was a short, ugly guy.

[EDIT - and lest I be rightly castigated for failing to provide a reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_of_Jesus

Wikipedia. What would we do without it?]

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

8765. Comment #207837 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 8:02 am

every civilsation has some "Messiah" complex/myth


And the Jews, like many others, thought that their Messiah would be a fierce liberator and a strong conservative leader.

It's interesting that, on the contrary, Jesus was extremely progressive. And while he did show his anger at the tables of the money changers in the Temple, he was remarkably restrained in the face of persecution and torturous public execution.

I'm going to assume that you've watched the Life of Brian... great movie. Suppose that Jesus' crucifixion, like Brian's, was exploited by men like Reg... do you suppose that the followers would risk death and persecution at the hands of their countrymen and the Romans, to follow Reg's teachings? The Life of Brian ended amusingly, with a flippant musical ditty. But what would have happened next had they continued the script? The formation of the world's most popular religion?

Other Comments by Kardashovel

8766. Comment #207844 by epeeist on July 10, 2008 at 8:07 am

 avatarComment #207816 by hungarianelephant
If he existed, Jesus was a short, ugly guy
and a bit smelly too.

Other Comments by epeeist

8767. Comment #207847 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 8:09 am

Not as smelly as the dude in the photo.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

8768. Comment #207848 by epeeist on July 10, 2008 at 8:13 am

 avatarComment #207847 by Kardashovel

Not as smelly as the dude in the photo. I'm determined to kill this thread.
There are a set of loony Muslims on the "Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya" thread, but I am afraid you might be a bit late to try them out.

Made txpiper look sane.

Other Comments by epeeist

8769. Comment #207851 by Tyler Durden on July 10, 2008 at 8:15 am

 avatar
And while he did show his anger at the tables of the money changers in the Temple
And a fig tree (Mark 11:12-14), allegedly. Strange behaviour for a "messiah" don't you think?

The formation of the world's most popular religion?
Evidence please? Let's not forget the majority of people in those times were ignorant, with no education, and would believe anything you told them, if done with enough authority.

Would you "believe" had your parents not indoctrinated you?

Anyhoo, just wondering about James Ussher and the age of the Earth as being 6,000 years. It's not in the Bible. Yet science tells us otherwise.

Your thoughts?

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

8770. Comment #207859 by hungarianelephant on July 10, 2008 at 8:25 am

 avatar8818. Comment #207837 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 8:02 am
And the Jews, like many others, thought that their Messiah would be a fierce liberator and a strong conservative leader.

It's interesting that, on the contrary, Jesus was extremely progressive. And while he did show his anger at the tables of the money changers in the Temple, he was remarkably restrained in the face of persecution and torturous public execution.

I'm going to assume that you've watched the Life of Brian... great movie. Suppose that Jesus' crucifixion, like Brian's, was exploited by men like Reg... do you suppose that the followers would risk death and persecution at the hands of their countrymen and the Romans, to follow Reg's teachings? The Life of Brian ended amusingly, with a flippant musical ditty. But what would have happened next had they continued the script? The formation of the world's most popular religion?

I think you're asking the wrong question.

If you take the Jesus story at face value, then what you have is a charismatic leader who offered a completely different philosophy, and method of resistance to Rome, from that which was prevalent at the time. When military resistance is so obviously useless, isn't it worth trying something else?

Gandhi found the same popularity nineteen centuries later when he engaged on a remarkably similar project.

It shouldn't be assumed that Reg would have continued to lead the movement after Brian's death. The enthusiasts with the gourd and the shoe might be more likely candidates. And Christianity's eventual move to dominance was born out of Constantine's desperate attempts to keep the Empire together. Then, as now, it was primarily a political project.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

8771. Comment #207862 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 8:26 am

Durden:
I just remembered why I don't talk to you. For the n'th time, at least the second to you, my parents "indoctrinated" me as an atheist.

I do not believe in a 6000 year old earth, dimwit.

And if you need me to dig up evidence that Christianity in it's various forms is the most popular religion in the world, then I'm afraid that I have already wasted too many keystrokes on your drivel. When the time comes, please do not get a driver's license.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

8772. Comment #207870 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 8:34 am

Gandhi found the same popularity nineteen centuries later when he engaged on a remarkably similar project.


Yeah. Note whom he credited for the inspiration.

And Christianity's eventual move to dominance was born out of Constantine's desperate attempts to keep the Empire together. Then, as now, it was primarily a political project.


That is true, hungarianelephant, and a point well taken. But I think that the damage began with Paul.

In any case, it is worth noting that Constantine chose the path of least resistance, and in spite of crucifixions, immolations, and lion feedings, Christianity spread through peaceful fellowship and the charismatic message that Jesus brought to the world. He showed the way, and as usual, we mortals lost the trail while bickering over who gets to wear the pointy hat.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

8773. Comment #207877 by Tyler Durden on July 10, 2008 at 8:45 am

 avatarKardashovel,

So you chose this religion for yourself? My deepest aplogies to your parents. Man, there are easier ways to beat yourself up. Why religion?

No thoughts on the fig tree then?

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

8774. Comment #207880 by irate_atheist on July 10, 2008 at 8:48 am

 avatar8825. Comment #207870 by Kardashovel -

Knob-jockey.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

8775. Comment #207884 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 8:54 am

8827. Comment #207880 by irate_atheist

Turd-burglar.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

8776. Comment #207886 by Elli on July 10, 2008 at 8:58 am

 avatarTyler Durden on July 10, 2008 at 3:47 am:
"...Once again, Christianity receives zero points for originality."

Actually, it is Judaism that receives zero points for originality. Christianity is just leeching on to the Jewish stories. I think a deduction of points is more appropriate. :-p

Other Comments by Elli

8777. Comment #207887 by Tyler Durden on July 10, 2008 at 8:58 am

 avatarAlright, break it up you two :)

Kardashovel,

I worry that if you should be persuaded that the earth is billions of years old, you will lose your faith because you put it in a book instead of God Himself.
This line confused me slightly, apologies. (What's wrong with books?)

Anyway, about that fig tree. Any comment?

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

8778. Comment #207889 by Tyler Durden on July 10, 2008 at 9:01 am

 avatarElli,

I stand corrected, many thanks :)

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

8779. Comment #207891 by irate_atheist on July 10, 2008 at 9:05 am

 avatar8828. Comment #207884 by Kardashovel -

No. You're the one with the mountain of shit.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

8780. Comment #207892 by Gregg Townsend on July 10, 2008 at 9:05 am

 avatarEh? Tyler?

I can't hear you with my fingers in my ears. Speak up my good man.

Kardo,

Rump Ranger.

Other Comments by Gregg Townsend

8781. Comment #207893 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 9:06 am

Elli, I cannot restrain myself from commenting that you have a most captivating avatar.

It seems that when you smile, the world does indeed smile with you.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

8782. Comment #207894 by hungarianelephant on July 10, 2008 at 9:07 am

 avatar8825. Comment #207870 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 8:34 am
In any case, it is worth noting that Constantine chose the path of least resistance, and in spite of crucifixions, immolations, and lion feedings, Christianity spread through peaceful fellowship and the charismatic message that Jesus brought to the world. He showed the way, and as usual, we mortals lost the trail while bickering over who gets to wear the pointy hat.

Suppose we go along with this. How is this different to an argument about the "purest" form of Marxism? How does the effectiveness of the spread of Christianity tell you anything about the truth or otherwise of its content?

Btw, the lion feedings are a myth. There's not a shred of evidence that they ever happened.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

8783. Comment #207896 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 9:10 am

8832. Comment #207891 by irate_atheist

There's no need to tax your formidable intellect coming up with these scathing insults, I_A.

Why not take the easier path and just criticize the points I made in the post that got you all homophobic and bothered (like your friend, Gregg)?

Other Comments by Kardashovel

8784. Comment #207897 by irate_atheist on July 10, 2008 at 9:11 am

 avatar8834. Comment #207893 by Kardashovel -
...I cannot restrain myself...
That much is obvious for all to see.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

8785. Comment #207899 by irate_atheist on July 10, 2008 at 9:15 am

 avatar8836. Comment #207896 by Kardashovel -

Homophobic? You prick. I just envisage you riding around a racecourse on a giant penis, waving to the crowd and looking oh so pleased with yourself...

To address your post:

argumentum ad populum

and

argumentum ad ignorantum

Other Comments by irate_atheist

8786. Comment #207900 by Gregg Townsend on July 10, 2008 at 9:16 am

 avatar
homophobic and bothered (like your friend, Gregg)?


What?

I thought we were passing out compliments.

Sorry. Feel free to ignore my above comments.

Other Comments by Gregg Townsend

8787. Comment #207901 by decius on July 10, 2008 at 9:20 am

 avatarComment #207894 by hungarianelephant

Btw, the lion feedings are a myth. There's not a shred of evidence that they ever happened.


True, although Nero had a brilliant idea, which unfortunately didn't catch up with later rulers. In at least an episode he used christians as combustible for public illumination. It's true that back then the word "christian" meant something different, but equally obnoxious.

Then, if I may publicly commend my namesake myself - emperor Decius launched a full scale persecution- for he predicted that christianity would have precipitated civilisation into chaos and barbarism. Unfortunately, his untimely death in 251 prevented him from accomplishing his noble goal.
He was soft though, he offered plenty of opportunities to the believers to renounce the dangerous christian superstition, before actually punishing them.

Other Comments by decius

8788. Comment #207904 by hungarianelephant on July 10, 2008 at 9:26 am

 avatar8840. Comment #207901 by decius on July 10, 2008 at 9:20 am
Then, if I may publicly commend my namesake myself - emperor Decius- launched a full scale persecution, for he predicted that christianity would have precipitated civilisation into chaos and barbarism.

In which he was, arguably, correct. Unless you want to go with the Gibbon theory that it was all about obsession with sex.

Speaking of gibbons, the fundies on the other thread seem to have gone quiet.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

8789. Comment #207905 by decius on July 10, 2008 at 9:30 am

 avatarComment #207904 by hungarianelephant

I agree with much of Gibbon, but not with that theory of his.

Yeah, probably the muezzin called.

Other Comments by decius

8790. Comment #207906 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 9:35 am

No worries, Gregg.

Suppose we go along with this. How is this different to an argument about the "purest" form of Marxism? How does the effectiveness of the spread of Christianity tell you anything about the truth or otherwise of its content?


Or put another way, by a person that will nurse his hate and anger all the way to the grave:
argumentum ad populum

and

argumentum ad ignorantum


I think that if you follow the recent train of posts, beginning with Tyler's Comment #207815, you will see that I am not attempting to prove the truth of Christianity (whatever that is)... I am merely noting that the growth in popularity, in the face of drastic persecution and threat of death, proves that Jesus' words and approach were remarkably inspiring, and strongly indicates that He existed, whether as God or man.

If it's just a feel-good story, then why risk life and limb? If it was to save their souls in the next life, why choose Christianity instead of Mythraism, for example? After all, that religion encouraged you to kick ass and avoid being slaughtered by your adversaries.

The answer must be that these early Christians believed with all of their heart. ANd it wasn't because it was the state religion or because daddy said so. And it wasn't because Jesus promised to kick Cesar's butt. What does that prove? I don't know. To me it demonstrates the unique power of the Christian message among all other religions, monotheistic or otherwise.

Given that I believe in God for other reasons, it gives me strong affection for the Christian message. That's all.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

8791. Comment #207909 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 9:39 am

True, although Nero had a brilliant idea, which unfortunately didn't catch up with later rulers. In at least an episode he used christians as combustible for public illumination.


Your humor is just a little too dry for me, Decius... but I'm sure you and Stalin would have got on well. Do you praise his works too?

Other Comments by Kardashovel

8792. Comment #207914 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 9:44 am

As for the lions, could you spell it out for me a little?

Lions were routinely used in the "games" in the Colosseum. Christians were routinely persecuted. It does not seem a stretch to presume that they met lions for the pleasure of the sporting public. I don't know this one way or another, but what makes you say it did not happen?

Just curious.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

8793. Comment #207923 by Sciros on July 10, 2008 at 10:01 am

 avatar
I am merely noting that the popularity among early Christians, in the face of drastic persecution and threat of death, proves that Jesus' words and approach were remarkably inspiring, and strongly indicates that He existed, whether as God or man.

It does NOT strongly suggest anything other than that the message a man named Jesus was credited with was inspiring to some people. There's a pretty serious lack of historical evidence (and a lot of contradictory information) for his actual existence as an individual. Some historians suggest he is a sort of amalgam of some self-professed "prophets" that appeared in Judea at the time.

If it's just a feel-good story, then why risk life and limb?
Believing something is true doesn't make it true, no matter how hard one believes it. Also, you can ask this same question of MANY religions; ask it of one you don't "agree with" and you'll hopefully see it does not lend credence to any.

If it was to save their souls in the next life, why choose Christianity instead of Mythraism, for example? After all, that religion encouraged you to kick ass and avoid being slaughtered by your adversaries.
Someone with a better historical background than me can tear this to shreds. But in any case, Christianity survived because Rome LET it survive. If, indeed, it never came to be and in its place a more aggressive, less submissive religion arose, Rome would have stamped it out for good and that'd have been that.

Other Comments by Sciros

8794. Comment #207925 by bugaboo on July 10, 2008 at 10:05 am

8843. Comment #207906 by Kardashovel

The "messages" I think you are referring to (love your neighbour etc)has little to do with Christianity but everything to do with humanity: Be excellent to each other (and party on)
It's a shame that Christians don't listen to some of these teachings but concentrate almost exclusively on sin, damnation and the rest of the hellish bullshit.
Do you really believe that if it were not for this one guy who supposedly lived 2000 years ago there would be no one who thought these were good ideas? How did they know in their hearts that these ideas were good? -because they were human. Why don't you give yourself some credit instead of giving it all to a Jewish zombie?

Other Comments by bugaboo

8795. Comment #207931 by hungarianelephant on July 10, 2008 at 10:13 am

 avatar8843. Comment #207906 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 9:35 am
The answer must be that these early Christians believed with all of their heart. ANd it wasn't because it was the state religion or because daddy said so. And it wasn't because Jesus promised to kick Cesar's butt. What does that prove? I don't know. To me it demonstrates the unique power of the Christian message among all other religions, monotheistic or otherwise.

Given that I believe in God for other reasons, it gives me strong affection for the Christian message. That's all.

Kardashovel, Fair enough, though I'm not sure about "unique". Buddhism would seem to fit into that mould as well.

Of course, if what's important about Christianity is the "message", then the originator of the message is not important. Instead we have something like a working model for looking at politics and morality. That seems to me a project of some merit. But how do you propose (politically) to detach that from the people who insist that there is no other way than that of Jesus?

Concerning the lions, we know a lot of what went on in the Games because it's well documented. If Christians were ever thrown to the lions for sport, then the historians didn't think to mention it. If it was routine, this would be a very surprising omission. The whole thing is just a presumption (your words) - adding the persecution to the lions and coming up with A Suffusion Of Yellow. The idea probably came from the Daniel story. I couldn't say definitively that it didn't happen, just that the evidence is that it is unlikely.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

8796. Comment #207979 by The Reverend Dark on July 10, 2008 at 11:36 am

 avatar

I am merely noting that the popularity among early Christians, in the face of drastic persecution and threat of death, proves that Jesus' words and approach were remarkably inspiring, and strongly indicates that He existed, whether as God or man.


Drastic peresecution? Get a history book. The Roman Empire was hugely tollerant of other religions. Christiantiy caused upset not due to it's theology, but due to the social disorder its adherents called for. Unlike most gods worshipped at the time, and fairly unique, Christianity called for a single, exclusive god. One god. That's it. Our way or the highway. Even the god of the Jews noted that they might have been the chosen people, but they were the chosen people of their god. A exclusive personal arrangement with a non-exclusive god.

Secondly. By your twisted logic AMERICA must be real as a person as Jesus, as it is vastly inspiring, etc. You don't need a person; you just need the idea. Saul of Tarsus never met Jesus, never knew Jesus, never fondled, annointed or did anything stigmata related with Jesus. His documented, conversion was based on the idea of Jesus; with the possibility a little epilepsy thrown in for fits and giggles.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

8797. Comment #207980 by Mark Smith on July 10, 2008 at 11:36 am

txpiper
This verse does not qualify. Nature is not being described in it. Super-nature is.

You are getting desparate. There is absolutely nothing in the text to support your claim. Instead, you make it to shore up biblical inerrancy. The reason you say it isn't describing nature (but this strange thing you call 'super-nature') is you know you can't defend it as a realistic description without conceding Decius's point. Strangely, you do precisely the opposite with Genesis, defending it as realistic even though modern science makes it impossible to do so.

personally, I think prophecies, weighed against probabilities, are compelling evidence

Then you must be a very gullible person. Do you find Nostradamus convincing also?

Other Comments by Mark Smith

8798. Comment #207982 by Elli on July 10, 2008 at 11:46 am

 avatarComment #207979 by The Reverend Dark:
"...a little epilepsy thrown in for fits and giggles"

- love it!

Other Comments by Elli

8799. Comment #208188 by Goldy on July 10, 2008 at 5:24 pm

 avatarKardy, how's tricks? :-)
Christianity - think it was an idea blown out of proportion by some superstitions. That painted slab they found seems to suggest (if it is verifiable) that the ressurrection idea was prevalent). You know how it is - look at how we reacted to the Y2K thing.
Just been to a chiropractor. Not sure if they work, but he did on my spine. I am in pain - but a good, flexible pain :-) Got a cold too - if bio-rhythms are true, mine are as down as one can get!

Other Comments by Goldy

8800. Comment #208274 by Goldy on July 10, 2008 at 7:34 pm

 avatarhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7495961.stm
txty - what fossils can tell us :-)
One thing you never explained...when a species goes extinct, it's gone forever, right? And when it's gone, nothing takes its place, right? Soooooo.....what are your views on the future of the planet?

Other Comments by Goldy
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