









Lying for Jesus?Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."
It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.
Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?
1402. Comment #160677 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 9:16 am
1403. Comment #160678 by hungarianelephant on April 14, 2008 at 9:16 am
If the advice concerns me, I should listen to my voice; if it concerns you, listen to your voice. If it is a source of conflict, then discuss and justify based on laws, conventions, and ethics...
1404. Comment #160679 by sschaller on April 14, 2008 at 9:17 am
While the current battle resembles the proverbial "cat fight," the issue was, at one time, about open discussion. The issue is not whether one idea has scientific merit - and therefore should be included. The issue is - let us openly discuss ideas to see if they have scientific merit.1405. Comment #160683 by Steve Zara on April 14, 2008 at 9:21 am
Simply put, the only reason to prevent the ID proponents from bringing their evidence is that we would be afraid of what they have to say. Fearing the challenge to our ideas is explicitly counter-scientific. The whole point of science is to challenge currently accepted ideas by reviewing the best-available evidence carefully and methodically.
1406. Comment #160684 by The Reverend Dark on April 14, 2008 at 9:23 am
1407. Comment #160686 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 9:26 am
1408. Comment #160698 by Frankus1122 on April 14, 2008 at 9:45 am
1409. Comment #160710 by MaxD on April 14, 2008 at 10:03 am
This isn't surprising since you all have already dismissed, a-priori, the potential existence of well over half of the total realm of creation (there is so little we puny humans actually DO know, married as so many obviously are to the "god" of the 3 pounds of greyish mush in their skulls)...
Lack of, or not believing in faith is every bit as much a demonstration of "faith" as faith itself.
BTW: just saying by way of EXAMPLE: I've noticed similar behavior on the part of 8-10 year old children - that wonderful age where they are approaching the "so called age of reason", but not yet fully integrating all aspects of emotional and intellectual health and maturity necessary to not suddenly give way to emotional and/or irrational outburts and/or mental fugues...
Perhaps if you all wanted to truly be treated with the respect you all so obviously and desperately crave, you should at least try using NICE WORDS! Such constant sourness is most unappealing to the vast majority of civilized and polite people.
1410. Comment #160711 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 10:03 am
I was basically good without God for over thirty years.1411. Comment #160714 by MaxD on April 14, 2008 at 10:08 am
1412. Comment #160717 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 10:11 am
The claim, which many here are debating, is that agnostics cannot have any objective basis for morality... be that as it may, that does not imply that an agnostic cannot be good.1413. Comment #160721 by Geoff on April 14, 2008 at 10:18 am
The Scientific community has two options:
(snip)
2. Discuss the Evidence -
Tell Intelligent Design proponents to "Prove It." If they have anything legitimately scientific to offer, the scientific community would benefit. If not, they will simply dig their own graves. They will not even have the benefit of whining that they are not allowed at the table.
(snip)
Let's see what they have, and let the facts speak for themselves.
1414. Comment #160752 by Vaal on April 14, 2008 at 11:10 am
The Scientific community has two options:
1. Silence Opponents -
Shut out all debate on the subject, just as Galileo was silenced when suggesting radically different ideas to the standard accepted theories
1415. Comment #160755 by Bonzai on April 14, 2008 at 11:17 am
So let's say ID is given equal time. What do they have to teach other than saying Darwinism is wrong?1416. Comment #160758 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 11:21 am
I came here to a) learn where you all are coming from, b) to posit some questions that just might get some of you thinking in broader terms, and c) to try and be reasonable..Always glad to learn something new and to have my horizons broadened. What do you want to talk about?
1417. Comment #160759 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 11:22 am
What do they have to teach other than saying Darwinism is wrong?
1418. Comment #160763 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 11:24 am
1419. Comment #160769 by alan baylis on April 14, 2008 at 11:28 am
1371. Comment #160614 by Quetzalcoatl1420. Comment #160773 by Bonzai on April 14, 2008 at 11:33 am
epeeist,.. enough about the philosophy of science to know that Intelligent Design isn't science (though you would want a professional philosopher like MPhil, Quine or Spinoza if you want more depth).
1421. Comment #160775 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 11:36 am
I am being generic here, so don't take it as trying to characterise your father. Fencing in the States used to be crap, but like a lot of other countries they have bought in East European coaches as the Soviet Union collapsed and their game has improved enormously, they are now winning gold medals at world level. This is especially true for women's sabre where a Russian called Nazlymov is in charge.
My father was a quite good fencer at University here in the US. I don't know if that is comparable to English fencing.
1422. Comment #160816 by navyjake95 on April 14, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Dude...just read your article, and I must say - you're clearly "unnerved" about something. It's been my experience (for 50 years), that people who behave like you did (in your article), do so because they're deeply afraid of Jesus.1423. Comment #160821 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Why should Dude be afraid of a possibly non-existent preacher from an iron age Semitic tribe?
Dude...just read your article, and I must say - you're clearly "unnerved" about something. It's been my experience (for 50 years), that people who behave like you did (in your article), do so because they're deeply afraid of Jesus.
To quote another poster from this site - "Well, I'll think of you the next time I am having a shit, the effect will be the same"
I'll pray for you - In spite of hatred and name-calling. God loves you dude!
1424. Comment #160822 by BillySands on April 14, 2008 at 12:37 pm
It sounds like Dawkins is about to believe in God. He's so angry and defensive.
1425. Comment #160825 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 12:41 pm
1426. Comment #160832 by Steve Zara on April 14, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Does anyone here know of a poster called "Dude"?
1427. Comment #160852 by alan baylis on April 14, 2008 at 1:30 pm
As a layman who has a passion for natural history and a deep curiosity about how things came to be the way they are, I have been drawn to this site.1428. Comment #160862 by Vaal on April 14, 2008 at 1:44 pm
1429. Comment #160882 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Personally I take my mother's attitude. To paraphrase her, everyone brings joy to the site, some when they arrive, some when they leave.
The guy will come back, once all the important issues have been forgotten, then we will be at square one again. I doubt he will be broadening anything save my definition of annoying.
1430. Comment #160886 by Steve Zara on April 14, 2008 at 2:15 pm
So Steve, did your partner start calling you "Cobber" when he came back from Oz? :-)
1431. Comment #160904 by Goldy on April 14, 2008 at 2:32 pm
It's been my experience (for 50 years), that people who behave like you did (in your article), do so because they're deeply afraid of Jesus.
God loves you dude!
1432. Comment #160915 by Goldy on April 14, 2008 at 2:40 pm
I was basically good without God for over thirty years.
I am now basically good with God.
I don't know any serious person (Christian or otherwise) that would assert that one cannot be good without God.
1433. Comment #160947 by Quine on April 14, 2008 at 3:12 pm
epeeist
,.. enough about the philosophy of science to know that Intelligent Design isn't science (though you would want a professional philosopher like MPhil, Quine or Spinoza if you want more depth).
No you don't. "Professional" philosophers have a tendency to be tricked by their own words. You don't need to know the big words to make a sound argument. Kant said such and such, according to so and so doctrine blah blah are basically invoking authorities to cover the lack of argument,--though often done just as a way to show off, in that case they are unnecessary distractions.
Often such doctrines are accompanied by defiant attacks on the scientific establishment. Science is said to be in the hands of vested interests. Now there have indeed been vested interests that have blocked progress; so such attacks can strike a responsive cord. But there seems to be no end to how far such accusations can go. Not long ago there was a pamphlet available that "proved" π to be expressible as a fraction. The scientific aristocracy, so it claimed, had had its purposes in suppressing this result. But now, for a small price, the truth was out.
When it is a mathematical truth that is assailed there is likely to be a definitive way of settling the issue; so, happily, it is with π. For many doctrines, though, there is this protective argument: you (pointing to the follower of the scientific establishment) can't disprove it! And to be sure, many of these theories that lie on or beyond the fringe of believability cannot be definitively shown to be wrong. Indeed many of them are cast in terms that are so cloudy that it is hard to know what would count as a refutation of them; for they are not intelligible in the first place. And here the naivete of the believer may blend with his instinct for giant-killing. He thinks that the fact that his belief can't be knocked all the way over is additional ground for embracing it; and he may rejoice in finding that all the mighty scientists can't put him down. A victory, of sorts, over those in power.
1434. Comment #160964 by Jon_Sociologist on April 14, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Comment #159761 by phil rimmer:
Jon
Intentions- Admirable.
Methods- Weird.
Negotiators don't shoot at (well intentioned) vigilantes when they've gone a little gun crazy.
1435. Comment #161047 by MaxD on April 14, 2008 at 5:29 pm
1436. Comment #161071 by alovrin on April 14, 2008 at 6:18 pm
demonstrates the ability to speak in complete sentences and not act like a total asshole.
1437. Comment #161116 by secondsoprano on April 14, 2008 at 8:35 pm
So Steve, did your partner start calling you "Cobber" when he came back from Oz? :-)
Not in front of me, fortunately.
1438. Comment #161118 by secondsoprano on April 14, 2008 at 8:44 pm
Comment #160816 by navyjake95 on April 14, 2008 at 12:27 pm
It's been my experience (for 50 years), that people who behave like you did (in your article), do so because they're deeply afraid of Jesus.
1439. Comment #161142 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 11:29 pm
We have the same thing here, with football (soccer) swamping virtually everything else.
I think part of the reason for this is that two sports dominate here in the states and they occupy all the major talent
Also did David Robertson or Artful ever offer a satisfactory answer to the metaphor questions?You need to ask?
1440. Comment #161192 by Galactor on April 15, 2008 at 2:42 am
I should say, Dawkins does believe in God, he just calls God "evolution." Evolution belongs in the same category as God. He can't prove evolution and he can't hand me evolution. Evolution does not exist in the material world. It exists only in Dawkins mind. If you would all quit believing in evolution it would cease to exist.
Evolution does not exist in the material worldis laughable. It shows you up as a backward ignoramus.
Not having belief or knowledge in something does not affect to the slightest degree the fact that this something may or may not be true.
If we stop believing in gravity then gravity will no longer exist.
Sometime in the future, someone will discover a new fact about the way nature works. That we do not know, yet, what this fact is, does not mean to say that it does not exist.
1441. Comment #161270 by Styrer- on April 15, 2008 at 4:52 am
Comment #160677 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 9:16 am
Styrer,
David Robertson has still refused to answer my question regarding the FCOS creed which states "pre-ordained damnation" as an article of faith.
I admire your persistence, but the man is slimey.
1442. Comment #161272 by Bonzai on April 15, 2008 at 5:02 am
Quinedid something bad happen to you as a child at the hands of a philosopher, perhaps a Jesuit?
1443. Comment #161282 by Kardashovel on April 15, 2008 at 5:41 am
Alovrin, if ignorance is bliss then your life must be like a non-stop orgasm.1444. Comment #161287 by Steve Zara on April 15, 2008 at 5:51 am
Why are you so fascinated with me?
1445. Comment #161299 by mmurray on April 15, 2008 at 6:23 am
Dr. Dawkins asserts that Evolution has been definitively proven, yet many prominent Evolutionists disagree on key points, or do not yet have tenable answers for fundamental questions.
Intelligent design proponents suggest they can bring scientifically supportable theories to the table that address these questions.
When we refuse to allow credentialed scientists at the table because we believe in a flat earth, we risk becoming scientific dinosaurs because the facts will eventually come out, and we will be left behind.
1446. Comment #161300 by Bonzai on April 15, 2008 at 6:23 am
if ignorance is bliss then your life must be like a non-stop orgasm.
1447. Comment #161305 by hungarianelephant on April 15, 2008 at 6:28 am
1448. Comment #161308 by Kardashovel on April 15, 2008 at 6:33 am
Can I ask how you don't know that the voice or dialog isn't with telepathic aliens?
1449. Comment #161311 by irate_atheist on April 15, 2008 at 6:37 am
1450. Comment #161312 by Kardashovel on April 15, 2008 at 6:43 am
So what you're basically espousing is almost a traditional liberal (in its original meaning) secular position.
Presumably, based on your earlier posts, you think there is a difference between someone who takes a position because of deeply felt conscience, and someone who does something just because he feels like it. Assuming you can properly distinguish between the two [sidenote - Tony Blair?], and assuming that there is a conflict with someone else, do you think the conscience-position should carry any particular weight? If so, why and if not, why not?
1401. Comment #160676 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 9:15 am
It shows. God bless you.
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