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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 2201 - 2250 of 9339 |

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2201. Comment #162854 by MPhil on April 17, 2008 at 3:00 pm

 avatarI'm sorry fdi50 - but I don't buy into your superficial attempt at wanting to understand this seriously.

All the points you list are textbook ID/creationaism propaganda and have been dealt with time and again.

Best examples:
-"element of faith" - absolutely not. It's application of the scientific method, no faith at all required. Evolution is as well established as anything in biology. And that's saying a lot

-Thermodynamics: The principles of thermodynamics apply to closed systems - such as the universe as a whole. The entropy in a closed system will rise - the disorder will rise. For disorder to remain constant or decrease, the system has to receive energy from outside. The earth is not a closed system. Ever heard of this thing called "sun"? Huge, constant infusion of energy every day.

-Your guess is as good as mine. Again, absolutely not. The scientific method, peer review - nothing will survive in a well-maintained scientific community that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Science constantly seeks to disprove its theories - making the tests harder - thus, theories can be improved, or completely wrong theories abandoned.
Parsimony prior knowledge and logical inference lead to the formation of hypotheses from data. These are then subjected to scrutiny, the hardest tests possible.
No wild guessing involved.
And the guess of a non-scientist is certainly not as good as that of a scientist when it comes to science.
What would you say is the value of the fine-structure constant alpha - without looking up the science? Would you even come up with the idea? I doubt it.

I advise you to look up more detailed answers to your questions at talkorigins.

Especially the FAQ and the Index should be of help to you. That is if - contrary to my assumption - you want to learn and not just post propaganda and attempt to strengthen your preconceived idea.

http://www.talkorigins.org/

Other Comments by MPhil

2202. Comment #162861 by BillySands on April 17, 2008 at 3:28 pm

 avatarFDI,
I dont for one second believe you are genuine here. You seem to think evolution is a law. I dont think you know what you mean about increasing the genetic code.

Anyway, how about duplication and mutation of opsin genes?
What about a gene which makes animals sprout extra fingers when it is shortened Like ALX-4.
How about the constant transfer of genes between species by horizontal gene transfer?

Other Comments by BillySands

2203. Comment #162874 by Goldy on April 17, 2008 at 3:59 pm

Micro-evolution is testable, provable and observable, but can the same be said for Macro-evolution?

What is macro-evolution but micro-evolution taken to greater lengths? Evolution has occurred for a long long time (well, unless you're YEC, in which case you have absolutely no idea about anything).
If you concede that micro-evolution occures AND that it can be seen, you are conceding that macro-evolution occurs too.
For proof, you may have heard about these things called fossils. You may also have read something about DNA and the similarities between different species indicating they have evolved away from each other but not as far as they have evolved away from other species (say, for example, whales, hippopotami and dogs).
It is so breathtakingly simple a concept I can't see where the problem lies...

Other Comments by Goldy

2204. Comment #162884 by Goldy on April 17, 2008 at 4:06 pm

Going back to kiwis (I'm late, I know, but hey, I live with the damn things (sort of...) so my time zone is out compared to the rest of the world's (it seems). Have you seen the size of the eggs they lay? Compared to the actual bird? Now that's what I call packaging!

Other Comments by Goldy

2205. Comment #162894 by Diacanu on April 17, 2008 at 4:18 pm

 avatarGoldy-


It is so breathtakingly simple a concept I can't see where the problem lies...


Politics.

The maco-micro evolution divide exists only as a debate wedge dreamed up by creationists.

It's another gap to stuff God/Jesus into with a plunger.

Other Comments by Diacanu

2206. Comment #162898 by Goldy on April 17, 2008 at 4:24 pm

Diacanu, I think politics might be one answer, sheer utter total mentally gobshiteful fuckwittery is closer to the real answer.
Honestly, who the hell can differentiate between mico-evolution and macro-evolution? Probably the same people that can't figure out if one can take a step, one might just about be able to walk. You either walk or step, in their view.
Breathtaking inanity!
If only I could have their way of thinking - I'd be able to eat curry all night wahing it down with pint after pint of beer. Stands to reason, I'd either fart or shit - follow-through after a fart would never exist!

Other Comments by Goldy

2207. Comment #162914 by Zaphod on April 17, 2008 at 4:52 pm

 avatarFDI,

Bacteria routinely transport plasmids(pieces of DNA) to each other all the time. Giving the recipient more genetic code.

Also look up a type of mutation called an insertion mutation.

Definition - Insertion mutation is a mutation caused by the insertion of at least one extra nucleotide base in a DNA sequence. a type of mutation where part of a genetic sequence is added to a chromosome, causing a frameshift in the genetic information on that chromosome.

For another response to your claim see talkorigins.org as always.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html

Other Comments by Zaphod

2208. Comment #162920 by Frankus1122 on April 17, 2008 at 4:55 pm

 avatarDiacanu,

PM for you in a minute.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

2209. Comment #162966 by Diacanu on April 17, 2008 at 6:14 pm

 avatarGoldy-


...sheer utter total mentally gobshiteful fuckwittery...


Well, that's politics for you.
:P

Other Comments by Diacanu

2210. Comment #162974 by SharonMcT on April 17, 2008 at 6:29 pm

 avatarGoldy:

It's called a shart, as in "I just sharted". ;)

Other Comments by SharonMcT

2211. Comment #162985 by Foster Zygote on April 17, 2008 at 6:51 pm

I haven't read through all 45 pages of comments, so perhaps someone else has mentioned this: I found it rather odd that Ben Stein's narrative should make such histrionic mockery of the Cairns-Smith abiogenesis hypothesis by commenting "MUD???". Aside from the logical fallacy of an argument from personal incredulity, it strikes me that more than a few creation mythologies, including those of the Abrahamic tradition, make mention of earth as the material from which humans were formed. I wonder if any of the writers of Expelled would have the same reaction reading the book of Genesis.

Other Comments by Foster Zygote

2212. Comment #162999 by Goldy on April 17, 2008 at 7:49 pm

Aaah, Diacanu and Sharon, what can I say! I laughed so hard I almost did shart!
Zaphod
Definition - Insertion mutation is a mutation caused by the insertion of at least one extra nucleotide base in a DNA sequence. a type of mutation where part of a genetic sequence is added to a chromosome, causing a frameshift in the genetic information on that chromosome.

I do believe we are absolutely chokka full of viral insertions. There was a lecture here (I missed it) where it was shown that one could track prehistoric epidemics by the DNA remnants left behind in our genome.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/11/991110062023.htm
http://geneticsevolution.suite101.com/article.cfm/viral_genes_in_human_genome

Other Comments by Goldy

2213. Comment #163004 by Kardashovel on April 17, 2008 at 7:59 pm

What you think I think: http://youtube.com/watch?v=qmVn6b7DdpA

What I think you think: http://youtube.com/watch?v=qefgOPS3rS8

Other Comments by Kardashovel

2214. Comment #163028 by rebelest on April 17, 2008 at 9:06 pm

Kardashovel,

I have been reading the "Irrational Atheist" thread for the last few days (as you know there are over 2000 posts on that thread, inc.the alternate) and came across your posts that mentioned your conversion from atheist to Christian.

At one point you mentioned being raised in an atheist family and I think that you even said that your grandparents were atheists-correct me if I'm wrong.

You also said that you would go into your conversion story but at the time you didn't want to get into it as you didn't have the time, long story...

I've been looking for this conversion story of yours and haven't been able to find it...and a lot of time has passed and you have posted a lot of material.

Have you posted this conversion story? Maybe I have missed it, if so, could you direct me to what thread it is in? If not, would you please tell us about your conversion?

I find them to be fascinating-I think most people do and as you are probably aware RDNet has a forum thread of theist to atheist conversion stories-Convert's Corner. I don't know if your conversion story would be appropriate for that thread but as you are aware most of the threads get so far off topic that I don't think it would matter if you posted it in this one.

Other Comments by rebelest

2215. Comment #163030 by Kardashovel on April 17, 2008 at 9:23 pm

Have you posted this conversion story?


It's a moving target. I'm posting it as we go.

What's your story, rebelest?

Other Comments by Kardashovel

2216. Comment #163083 by Quetzalcoatl on April 18, 2008 at 1:15 am

 avatarOff topic-

Having read RM's insults yesterday I composed a response criticising what he had said. This morning I received an e-mail from David Robertson telling me that my response will not be displayed, in the interests of keeping the thread "on topic". I appreciate that not everyone here cares about this, but for those who might be interested, my response to RM's original post can be found here:

http://musingsofastrangemind.blogspot.com/2008/04/irate-response.html

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2217. Comment #163088 by Brian English on April 18, 2008 at 1:29 am

 avatarHey Quetz.

I read your comment earlier on the FCOS site. I get where you're coming from. I asked Richard about it earlier today. I explained that folks here were pissed off that he generalized about many if not all on this site, etc.

Anyway, apparently his conversion is real. Strange, but that doesn't bother me (so long as he doesn't try to convert me), being religious isn't so bad, otherwise I'd have to disown all my mildly religious family. What bothers me somewhat is the broad stroke of labeling many on this site.

Anyway, you make your bed and you lie in it. Peace.

Other Comments by Brian English

2218. Comment #163092 by Quetzalcoatl on April 18, 2008 at 1:34 am

 avatarBrian-

apparently my response appeared on FCOS then disappeared while I was asleep. Very odd.

I had been giving RM the benefit of the doubt, having realised that by "well-balanced" he could have meant "unbiased". But when in a later comment he used the phrase "psychologically well-balanced", it was obvious what he had meant.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2219. Comment #163093 by Steve Zara on April 18, 2008 at 1:40 am

 avatar
What is macro-evolution but micro-evolution taken to greater lengths?


The macro/micro evolution distinction is confusing. My sense of what macro-evolution is supposed to be is some significant change in a single generation. That does happen! Polyploidy - duplication of the entire genome - is common in plants, and a new species can arise from a single copying error. Most large-scale changes are a problem, as they move an organism far from the naturally selectected phenotype of the parents, but polyploidy seems to be a common exception to this rule.

What we should be talking about is the matter of single or multiple copying errors or mutations. The argument against macromutation is that it would require co-ordinated gene changes to get a whole new species, and so this can't happen in nature. Polyploidy indicates that we can get macromutation (and new species) through a single mutation.

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2220. Comment #163094 by Brian English on April 18, 2008 at 1:41 am

 avatarYeah. I asked him by the way if he thought I was barking mad. I've commented on this site for a year I suppose. I think his out is that he didn't say all regular posters were unbalanced. As you commented, that doesn't change the suggestion that all or most here on the site are unbalanced.

I should add that I find chatting with him on messenger to be enjoyable. I guess I'm an unbalanced man-slut. ;)

Other Comments by Brian English

2221. Comment #163096 by Quetzalcoatl on April 18, 2008 at 1:43 am

 avatarBack on topic-

Steve, you make an interesting point about what macroevolution is. I had always thought of macroevolution being the term for significant changes accumulating in an organism over a period of time as a consequence of microevolution.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2222. Comment #163098 by Steve Zara on April 18, 2008 at 1:51 am

 avatarComment #163094 by Brian English

Even though I have been commenting, I think we should put the Richard M business aside. It is understandable to feel a bit hurt when someone like that "changes sides" and slags us all off, but, really, does it matter that much? I don't think so. Also, it does give perhaps un-earned publicity to one person. Anyway, that is just my thoughts.

On the other hand, any subject which leads Brian to post does have an advantage!

This business of generalising about atheists is common, and has turned up in a place that was unexpected for me. I have been having a formal debate (my next response up soon) with a theologist. I assumed we were on good terms, but then he goes and blogs about "atheists sneering about faith", in the context of his wife having been ill (but fortunately fine now) during her recent pregnancy. He may choose to believe God helped his famility, but I would give all the praise to doctors. However, to leverage that for an attack on "atheists" was pretty awful emotional manipulation. In a friendly manner, I objected to this, but got back the reply that I was an unusual exception, and anyway he was talking about the "Dawkins" types.

Maybe we need some kind of classification of atheists, so we can use the "not my kind of atheism" excuse? (I am not an atheist of species Atheistus Dawkinsii) Or perhaps not...

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2223. Comment #163101 by Steve Zara on April 18, 2008 at 1:57 am

 avatarComment #163096 by Quetzalcoatl

I think it is more like this: What appears in many cases to be macroevolution - a sudden appearence of a new species out of nothing - is actually considerable microevolution happening very fast. The ID'ers claim is that microevolution is not the kind of mechanism that can lead to new species, no matter how much of it occurs. This is clearly nonsense, even without mechanisms such as polyploidy.

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2224. Comment #163103 by clodhopper on April 18, 2008 at 2:03 am

 avatarComment #163083 by Quetzalcoatl
Having read RM's insults yesterday I composed a response criticising what he had said.


Quetz: Effort appreciated but I don't think it's worth it. Having 'converted' Richard will now be mirroring the behaviour of his new mentor in order to get more strokes and approval. I think it's probably best to let them get on with it.

Just my opinion though.

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2225. Comment #163104 by Brian English on April 18, 2008 at 2:04 am

 avatar
It is understandable to feel a bit hurt when someone like that "changes sides" and slags us all off, but, really, does it matter that much?


It is. And it doesn't hurt (me) that much. As much as I like the net and it frustrates me severely (hence my near absence from RD.net) at times it's not my life so I don't take it personally (unless extremely drunk and that wears off quickly.)

Steve, before I disappear did you read my question about Goedel and his attempt to prove the non-existence of time using relativistic space-time?

Other Comments by Brian English

2226. Comment #163106 by Quetzalcoatl on April 18, 2008 at 2:11 am

 avatarClodhopper-

you're probably right. It just pissed me off, is all. I think unless something really significant happens, I'm going to leave it alone now.

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2227. Comment #163107 by epeeist on April 18, 2008 at 2:13 am

 avatarComment #163104 by Brian English

Steve, before I disappear did you read my question about Goedel and his attempt to prove the non-existence of time using relativistic space-time?
Didn't he consider the whole universe as rotating? Given this you could travel along a spiral path and return before your time of your departure.

Other Comments by epeeist

2228. Comment #163108 by Brian English on April 18, 2008 at 2:16 am

 avatar
Didn't he consider the whole universe as rotating? Given this you could travel along a spiral path and return before your time of your departure.

Yes. And that was the Goedel universe. Apparently it is one group of "workings" of relativistic equations (it has the same laws of nature as our universe too). Then he did a modal "thingy" to say that what is possible in the Goedel universe is possible in all universes. Thus there is no past, present of future because all times are reachable. And as Einstein said, time is a persistent illusion. What bugs me most (and I suck at logic, math and philosophy) is the modal argument. It seems to have the same weight as the ontological argument.....

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2229. Comment #163110 by clodhopper on April 18, 2008 at 2:19 am

 avatarOh I expect they'll mount a pincer attack when they get bored with each other.....:-(

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2230. Comment #163111 by irate_atheist on April 18, 2008 at 2:19 am

 avatar2225. Comment #163098 by Steve Zara -

I regret to say, and please don't be offended, but your friend may well be a pillock.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2231. Comment #163113 by clodhopper on April 18, 2008 at 2:23 am

 avatarComment #163107 by epeeist
Given this you could travel along a spiral path and return before your time of your departure.


MMmmm. On the one hand getting home before you've left for work would be very nice but coming before the foreplay is over could be somewhat frustrating.

Other Comments by clodhopper

2232. Comment #163115 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:33 am

Reports of my death were greatly exaggerated. I'm back, as I said I would be, to answer questions that were posed to me before I went to bed (after staying up until 3:40 am, by the way). I'm not sure if I'll have time to get to them all tonight, as it's after 2 am right now, but I'll try.

OK, the first thing that a couple people asked was for me to give examples of the high and mighty attitude I claimed to see on this board. Well, let me start by pointing out the tone of pretty much the entire article these posts are under. Richard Dawkins comes across as an arrogant, bitter, and condescending man. An example of that (besides the slogan of the board):

"He [Ben Stein] certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough."

Of course, there's also the fact that he implies that people who believe in God are insane...

Now, getting to comments by actual posters (without naming names):

"I thought this movie would be good for a laugh, but apparantly [sic] not."

"I can't say this surprises me. I do want to see this movie, mostly out of morbid curiosity... mostly to laugh at the idiocy of the far right"

"Ah, I've been waiting for this all weekend. What a lovely snort of derision in the face of these increasingly desperate and absurd buffoons."

"Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree there, sport. These pitiful lying asshats deserve nothing but sarcasm, mockery and ridicule. They're not worth anything else. They're mendacious morons and to give them the slightest respect is to unjustifiably dignify their bullshit and thus help perpetuate it. Wise up."

OK, I think I've demonstrated that there's a noticeable amount of condescension going on here. Most of you are keeping things civil, and some even lighthearted/funny (like irate_atheist), but it only took sifting through a couple pages to gather those things. I don't have all night to gather a more *scientific* basis for my claim, but that's what I have given the time constraints. I'd also like to add that implications that I was stumped by this pretty simple question seem condescending to me.

Anyway, please have a little understanding of why I couldn't (and can't) stay too long here. It doesn't mean that I'm trying to hit-and-run, but that I'm working while I obtain a master's degree, and I don't have very much free time.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2233. Comment #163117 by BillySands on April 18, 2008 at 2:37 am

 avatarQuetz

This morning I received an e-mail from David Robertson telling me that my response will not be displayed, in the interests of keeping the thread "on topic".


Interesting. It was definately there last night!
Since only moderated comments appear, someone must have OKed it only for Robertson to censor it. Why does that not surprise me? Booooo! Bad Dave! Silencing your critics cos you cant cope no doubt!

Steve


The macro/micro evolution distinction is confusing. My sense of what macro-evolution is supposed to be is some significant change in a single generation. That does happen!


There are documented cases of multicellularity evolving in species of single celled algae in the presence of predatory rotifers. I dont know anything of the genetics of it though, but in terms of whether large phenotypic changes can occur suddenly or not, we dont need a mechanism.
There are also dolphins with 4 flippers. http://www.smh.com.au/news/science/fourfinned-dolphin-an-evolutionary-throwback/2006/11/05/1162661544728.html
Or chickens producing teeth http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=mutant-chicken-grows-alli

Again, the mechanism is not important, these changes can and do happen. When a cretinist talks of increased information, he is using a straw man as he somehow thinks a functional camera eye should evolve in one generation by accident. As with some examples I have given earlier (AbdA) increased "information" can also reduce complexity - but still alter body plans.
It is a load of bollocks which keeps getting repeated. They seem to think that if there is no evidence for incresed information, that some how invalidates macro evolution. It is a clear misunderstanding of how evolution works(although I suspect many dont want to understand).
At best all that could be said is that there is gap in our knowlegde - that invalidates nothing.
However, there is no gap. I doubt any of the fundies will read this, but here are some known mechanisms.

Genome duplication
Pseudogene generation
convertion of processed pseudogenes
Gene duplication
Duplication and transposition
Horizontal gene transfer
Nucleotide insertion
Crossover errors at meiosis
Retroviral insertion.

I notice FDI has not been back - no suprise there!

Other Comments by BillySands

2234. Comment #163118 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:39 am

To Quetzalcoatl on post 2056 --

It's my belief that when atheists attempt to "convert" people to their beliefs, which some undeniably do, they are depriving people of a real meaning to their existence, whether that meaning is true or not.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2235. Comment #163119 by Brian English on April 18, 2008 at 2:39 am

 avatar
"He [Ben Stein] certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough."

Mount everest certainly can't be chosen for its ease of climb, not its temperate clime, nor its lack of fame (heavens,no), and its treacherous ascent, dangerous ravines, innocent of ease and luxury. I suppose that makes it a challenge for conveying the idea of adventure, so maybe that was qualification enough.

I guess Everest is a bitter, condescending mountain the way it doesn't let men climb it with ease. Just because someone calls a spade a spade doesn't mean they're bitter.

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2236. Comment #163120 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:42 am

Diacanu (2058) --

Can you really call writing books, painting a painting, etc., a meaning for your *existence*? They're things you can derive pleasure out of, but on a deeper level, they don't explain why we're here. If one is an atheist, they can't logically think we exist for a reason, can they?

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2237. Comment #163121 by Brian English on April 18, 2008 at 2:44 am

 avatar
If one is an atheist, they can't logically think we exist for a reason, can they?

Could you give a (universal/theistic) reason for existing that is logical and doesn't beg the question?

Other Comments by Brian English

2238. Comment #163122 by Brian English on April 18, 2008 at 2:45 am

 avatarOK, I'm getting no Goedel love. Fair enough. Thanks for your help Epeeist.

See you guys the next time I see you guys. :)

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2239. Comment #163123 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:46 am

Greyman (2059) --

"It does not follow that some higher power exists because people hope for a continued existance."

Yes. I never remotely implied anything contrary to that. What I did say is that such beliefs bring fulfillment to many people, whether they are accurate or not.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2240. Comment #163124 by irate_atheist on April 18, 2008 at 2:48 am

 avatar2235. Comment #163115 by Egomaniac -
Most of you are keeping things civil, and some even lighthearted/funny (like irate_atheist)...
You clearly haven't read many of my posts. Can we add pisspoor researching to your list of skills.

And as for:
Anyway, please have a little understanding of why I couldn't (and can't) stay too long here. It doesn't mean that I'm trying to hit-and-run, but that I'm working while I obtain a master's degree, and I don't have very much free time.
Please don't tell us it's in theology, the biggest non-subject of all time.

Furthermore: 2237. Comment #163118 by Egomaniac -

What are these 'beliefs' of which you write? Atheism = non-belief in gods.

And as for "...depriving people of a real meaning to their existence, whether that meaning is true or not." I think we can reasonably deduce from this single statement that if we gave you an enema, you could be buried in a matchbox.

Don't bother responding. Your reply won't be worth the paper it's not written on.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2241. Comment #163125 by Philip1978 on April 18, 2008 at 2:48 am

 avatarEgomaniac

I think the words you are looking for are "De-convert people from their beliefs", atheists do not believe in atheism.

"depriving people of a real meaning to their existence",


That's a rather grand statement to make, are you saying my life has no significant meaning unless I believe in a god? I have a cup of Tea on my desk right now, that's significant to the meaning of my life! :)

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

2242. Comment #163126 by Steve Zara on April 18, 2008 at 2:50 am

 avatar
OK, I'm getting no Goedel love.


?

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2243. Comment #163127 by irate_atheist on April 18, 2008 at 2:51 am

 avatar2244. Comment #163125 by Philip1978 -

I haven't 'called' him yet, but it's certainly heading that way.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2244. Comment #163128 by Roland_F on April 18, 2008 at 2:52 am

2197. Comment #162783 by MPhil
What shall I say - I study under a professor who holds a chair where the catholic church needs to give its okay for the candidate to fill it - a chair in philosophy, not theology mind you. ... in a country where "Reverence for god" is the highest goal of education - as laid down in the constitution.

Hallo Michael, unfrei im Freistaat Bayern ?!

reminds me about a book "introduction of Logic" (Corazon L. Cruz) the only one I could find in the Catholic country I am residing currently.

preface: [It is my hope that while students learn the principles of correct reasoning .... It is my hope, too, that they grow in wisdom, aware of the intimations of love of God and their fellowmen in and between the lines]

And the content goes like this:
Universal quantifiers [Every sunrise is a beautiful gift of God, Prayer is the lifting of one's mind and heart to God]
Obversion : [No uncharitable person is a true lover of God]

Enthymeme Syllogism: [God is the supreme good, therefore God is infinitely loveable]

And so on, I really prefer the Boolean logic from my applied informatics study compared to this.
So your Philosophy study is similar then ?

Other Comments by Roland_F

2245. Comment #163129 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:52 am

Roland_F (2062) --

"Must be a very sad existence to life only in the hope of an afterlife, regret each thought about joy just in the hope for an better afterlife rather than enjoying the here and now : the only life you have."

Why would you presume that this is necessarily the case for people who believe in a higher power (or powers)? Is it inconceivable that such people could actually enjoy their lives despite believing in said power(s)?

"This hope of a better afterlife is just the 'opium for the poor' to bear the suppression of the ruling cleptocrats and clerics."

Only poor people hope for an afterlife?

"Learn about Hinduism and Buddhism, their central Karma function is working without a God as all knowing judge to decide the level of rebirth."

I'm aware of the Buddhist position on God, and I find it illogical. Many Buddhists do too, and there is no general agreement on the involvement of a higher power (or lack thereof). You're mistaken about Hinduism holding that higher powers have no bearing on the process.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2246. Comment #163130 by phatbat on April 18, 2008 at 2:53 am

 avatarComment #163115 by Egomaniac

"He [Ben Stein] certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough."


He's reviewing the film and like any bad film it will get bad reviews. After the way RD was treated being tricked into it by the man he's being 'condescending' about isn't a bad thing - he deserves whatever RD says about him. He is famous for having that voice anyway. He clearly shows a lack of reasoning skills by drawing comparisons with Nazi germany etc. And he clearly has a lack of scientific knowledge as demonstrated by his allegence to ID. This is a non point.


"I thought this movie would be good for a laugh, but apparantly [sic] not."


You really should name who it is. But what's wrong with this - he is stating that from the info given it is apparently not worth seeing for a laugh. It is not condescending to find it funny to watch some non scientists running around thinking they've found some great contraversy within science when they haven't.

Condescension is not always a bad thing if the target of the condescension is deserving of it and probably far more than condescension.

I think your attitude in your first post below indicated that you were looking down on the atheists for not being as moraly exemplary as you who would never do that to anyone.

Bravo, my fellow atheists! Let's all give ourselves a big pat on the back for our intellectual superiority over the masses of peons that share our meaningless existence, yet like to delude themselves into thinking life is about anything more than self-praise and the belittling of inferiors!


They are not inferior completely or any less deserving of human rights, they are just demonstrating a complete lack of reasoning skills while at the same time thinking they are. They are making a judgement on scientific issues with absolutely no scientific knowledge, thinking they know better than 99% of the scientific community, thats arrogance, they made no effort to try and understand where the ID ideas fall down - they just lied and tricked their way into people like RD's time and made a film like this. This deserves condescension anyway. Try and defend their point instead of just coming out with holier than thou ad homs like that.

Other Comments by phatbat

2247. Comment #163131 by Philip1978 on April 18, 2008 at 2:53 am

 avatarIrate

After checking the Tea leaves, I think you will "call" very soon!

Philip :)

Other Comments by Philip1978

2248. Comment #163132 by Steve Zara on April 18, 2008 at 2:54 am

 avatarComment #163120 by Egomaniac

What I don't understand is why people can't be mature enough to find their own personal meanings for life. I use the analogy of a prison. People in prison are given "meaning" to their lives: they are told what to do and when to do it, and someome watches over them all the time. But wouldn't you rather be free to choose what to do?

Eternal life, if you believe in it, is nothing to do with with meaning. It gives people hope. The idea of having eternal life does not help people answer the question of what they should be trying to achieve during their mortal lifespan.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2249. Comment #163133 by Quetzalcoatl on April 18, 2008 at 2:55 am

 avatarEgomaniac-

It's my belief that when atheists attempt to "convert" people to their beliefs, which some undeniably do, they are depriving people of a real meaning to their existence, whether that meaning is true or not


I wouldn't put it like that, for several reasons. Firstly, there are no "atheist beliefs". Atheism is a lack of belief in God. That's all you "need" to be an atheist. But let's not get side-tracked.

Your comment is interesting, in that it suggests that only religion can give people a true meaning for their existence. That raises the question: religion in general, or just the one that you believe in?

Philip-

I have a cup of Tea on my desk right now


Me too! I predict they will be delicious and thirst-quenching.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2250. Comment #163135 by epeeist on April 18, 2008 at 2:57 am

 avatarComment #163115 by Egomaniac
Of course, there's also the fact that he implies that people who believe in God are insane...

Shorter OED gives "insane" as:

adjective 1 in or relating to an unsound state of mind; seriously mentally ill.
While "delusion" is given as
noun a belief or impression that is not in accordance with a generally accepted reality.
You will note that the two are quite different in meaning. Either you are letting your presuppositions influence your interpretation or guilty of committing the fallacy of equivocation.


Now, getting to comments by actual posters (without naming names):

"I thought this movie would be good for a laugh, but apparantly [sic] not."
You say you were redirected here from the "Expelled" site. Does that mean you are a follower of ID?

What you have to realise is that ID is simply not science. It fulfils none of the requirements pieced together by scientists and philosophers of science in the past centuries. Claiming it is science is dishonest. Further, many (all?) the personal reports of people being dismissed from posts for being proponents of ID have been shown to be incomplete or wrong. The interviews with PZ and RD were done under false pretences, another piece of dishonesty.

As you will have noticed the film has also purportedly used material which they plagiarised or for which they have not obtained permission to broadcast. This is theft.

Hence the negative comments about the film and its proponents on this site.

And it isn't just this site. Go and read the reviews from other places, such as Fox news. A compilation can be found at www.expelledexposed.com

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