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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 3301 - 3350 of 9339 |

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3301. Comment #166204 by epeeist on April 23, 2008 at 2:01 am

 avatarComment #166196 by Philip1978
I suspect you prefer stories of talking snakes
Please sir, please sir. I like stories about talking snakes. There was this one called Ningizzida in a book called "The Epic of Gilgamesh". He ate from the tree of life and became immortal. He did it when Gilgamesh wasn't looking. Its a very old story, the book I've got said it was written about 2000BC on tablets of stone. Does that make it older than the bible sir?

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3302. Comment #166206 by Quetzalcoatl on April 23, 2008 at 2:05 am

 avatarNothing wrong with talking snakes.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

3303. Comment #166215 by irate_atheist on April 23, 2008 at 2:29 am

 avatarI'm sterblich.

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3304. Comment #166227 by Goldy on April 23, 2008 at 2:50 am

Philip
So let me get this straight, you believe that God took 6 days to create EVERYTHING from scratch, including a human male made from clay and a woman made out of that man's rib.

Not quite. God created men and women on the sixth day. Adam was created AFTER the seventh day and Eve some time after that. God had forgotten rain and had to make it happen after the seventh day too :-) Check it out, all in Genesis. He (God) also refers to other gods - he actually talks to them in a council meeting.
I like Kardy. I said it before and I'll say it again. He is a real mensch! And I'm sterblich (or, as I'd say in my German "I bi sterblich a!" Perils of learning Tirolerisch!)
I'll steer clear of physics. T'was that subject that kept me out of medicine. I think, looking back, it was for the better, but like Kardy's God, I'll never know how that particular universe turned out.
Remnant is deranged. Sorry, mate, you're touched upstairs. Kardy's voices are nothing to your complete lack of logical thought and indeed living. You must be American. Top tip - when in Europe, don't speak. You'll be labelled a nutter. Which, in fact, you are.

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3305. Comment #166238 by BillySands on April 23, 2008 at 3:14 am

 avatar
I never said it wasn't, matey. I said that an unbeliever cannot properly interpret Scripture without guidance from the Holy Spirit.


So, you admit a contradiction. "John" (probably not the real author) makes no mention of needing the holy spirit. Also, his gospel is supposedly a witness accout - no interpretation required - with or with out the holy spirit. The whole point is that this is supposed to be evidence to make you believe. So to say that we need the holy spirit is total rubbish. Which brings us to another thing. How come "the holy spirit" tells different believers different things concerning women priests, gay bishops, bombing Arabs for oil and pre-marital sex?

You have not only proven that, you have also proven that you have a problem with reading comprehension as well.


News to me. I suggest you read my answer again - if your comprehension skills are up to the job. You have clearly demonstrated logic is not your strong point. If you still feel otherwise do provide some evidence.

The truth is not an insult except to one like you that rejects the truth.


Really, and you know the truth how? I suspect if you realised that the truth was that your most cherished beliefs were worthless, would be offended by that.


I have no contempt for unbelievers I pray for them and feel sorry that they choose to remain blind to the truth. I do not send anyone anywhere. You do that by rejecting God's plan of salvation in Jesus Christ. God will reluctantly give you whatever destination you choose. I cannot determine or change your destination, only you can do that through faith in Christ.


Yeah right! You will actually find a few pre-determinist verses in the bible too - so much for consistency! You said that you have preached the gospel (which one?) and our blood was now on our hands as a result - sounds like you think you are sending us to hell.

You, "Do you happen to believe in the flood too?"

Yes


Now I can never take you seriously. There are so many fatal flaws in floodology.

Here's a simple one. Lets assume at a very conservative estimate there are currently 10 million species on the plannet (forget the obvious issue of space for now). Creationists usually boast that the fossil record is 99% incomplete. That means a total of 1 billion species have ever existed (I said it was conservative). Noah is given a week (604800 seconds) to round them up. He is therefore rounding up and placing 1 species on the ark every 600 micro seconds (To indicate how fast that is, if 1 micro second was a second, a second would last about 11 and a half days).

Is Kool aid something that is supposed to be amusingly mature, respectful and witty? Or do only retards get the joke?

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3306. Comment #166241 by Philip1978 on April 23, 2008 at 3:22 am

 avatarepeeist

Well done you, yes, thats right, have a gold star!


The earliest Sumerian versions of the epic date from as early as the Third Dynasty of Ur (2150-2000 BC) and it supposedly tells of a King from 2600 BC which makes it pretty old! Much older than when Genesis was written which was around 1445 B.C. whose author, Moses, has highly dubious and unreliable historical credentials!

Well done!

Philip

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3307. Comment #166243 by epeeist on April 23, 2008 at 3:25 am

 avatarComment #166238 by BillySands
That means a total of 1 billion species have ever existed (I said it was conservative). Noah is given a week (604800 seconds) to round them up. He is therefore rounding up and placing 1 species on the ark every 600 micro seconds
That is one seriously large boat. Built out of wood wasn't it? That would make it a bit larger than this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_(Schooner)

Of course Noah would have been a better boat builder, the Wyoming sank in heavy seas because of its flexure. Wasn't there something about heavy seas during "The Flood"?

And of course, with that much wood one would expect to find some remnants on Mt. Ararat. I know people have looked for them. It isn't as though wood of this age hasn't been found, for example in the Forbidden City in China. I know this isn't particularly good evidence, since China isn't mentioned in the bible.

Oh, I posted this the other day:

The Bible: Because all the works of science are as nothing to the wisdom of a set of cattle-sacrificing primitives who thought all the species of the world lived within walking distance of Noah's house.

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3308. Comment #166245 by BillySands on April 23, 2008 at 3:38 am

 avatar
Of course Noah would have been a better boat builder


Well, he would have to be, Argentinasaurus alone weighed 100 tonnes. Wonder how they stopped the Giganotosaurses from eating them?

Whenever I am on an apologetic web site (or directed to one) the first thing I do is check out what it says about dinosaurs. It tells me instantly if I have strayed on to the nutty side.

I know this isn't particularly good evidence, since China isn't mentioned in the bible.


But ...But.... the olympics, I've seen evidence - I have been fooled by the atheistics baby bombing TV channels! And that "chineese" guy I sometimes have lunch with - Curse you Darwin - NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


Remnant, what were noah's last words?

"Who brought those bloody termites on board?"

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3309. Comment #166250 by irate_atheist on April 23, 2008 at 3:47 am

 avatar11. Comment #166245 by BillySands -

God's last words to Noah, immortalised on film by S. Spielberg, were: 'You're gonna need a bigger boat.'

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3310. Comment #166251 by epeeist on April 23, 2008 at 3:47 am

 avatarComment #166245 by BillySands
Whenever I am on an apologetic web site (or directed to one) the first thing I do is check out what it says about dinosaurs.
My approach is a little more gradual. Lure them in to start with by mentioning the varves in Lake Suigetsu (40,000 counted, one per year). They usually respond with something like Mt. St. Helens laying down multiple varves per year. Then you point out that there are thin and thick varves corresponding to known weather patterns and catastrophic events such as Krakatoa. And how this matches with tree rings. And how it all fits together with ice cores.

They always want to tell me about the unreliability of C14 dating, so I stick to the stuff you can do by simple counting and emphasise the consilience between them. Not only do they have to show why each of the dating methods is wrong, but why they are all wrong by the same amount.

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3311. Comment #166254 by Quetzalcoatl on April 23, 2008 at 3:51 am

 avatarIrate-

God's last words to Noah, immortalised on film by S. Spielberg, were: 'You're gonna need a bigger boat.'


Noah: "But Lord, I built it to your exact specifications!"
God: "Silence! I am the Lord".
Noah: "Yes, I know, but what you said was....aargh!"
(Gets eaten by a Ceratosaurus).
God: "That'll show him".

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3312. Comment #166257 by BillySands on April 23, 2008 at 3:58 am

 avatar
Not only do they have to show why each of the dating methods is wrong, but why they are all wrong by the same amount.


Thats the problem with cretinists, they get it the wrong way round. They go to more and more bizarre lengths to try and fit the facts into their model. I remember someone (probably devolved) dumped a link on the flood that cut out the need to explain all that nasty geology. Their solution was to ignore. It wasn't needed because genesis was written by witnesses (sadly I can hear remnant agreeing).

I also find it funny (in a laugh at them kind of way) that we know the Pharonic line was intact. We know who the Pharoah was at the supposed time, and we know he died well after the supposed event. I cant describe how stupid creotards are. They somehow think that one family on Ararat continued the known world empires and re-populated them almost instantly and re-instated known trade links.

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3313. Comment #166266 by debbyo on April 23, 2008 at 4:24 am

Is it true that the unicorns didn't make it? What about the goblins?

Whoah - they must have had to sedate the Pterodactyls.

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3314. Comment #166272 by Philip1978 on April 23, 2008 at 4:28 am

 avatarI would have put the flying things all on ropes, lift the boat a bit and get out of the worst of the heavy seas! :)

Though Eddie Izzard was right about how the Flying things and the swimming things get out due to a loophole! (Said in the voice of James Mason, who was playing God) Did Noah really have to collect them as well?

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3315. Comment #166274 by epeeist on April 23, 2008 at 4:32 am

 avatarIn the holidays during 6th form I worked on a pig farm. Not a particularly big farm, but the amount of shit we had to shovel each day was significant.

You have to feel sorry for Noah and his few companions having to heave dinosaur turds over the side on a daily basis. Given that he seems to have only sailed around a limited area you would expect to find a significant number of coprolites...

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3316. Comment #166276 by epeeist on April 23, 2008 at 4:36 am

 avatarComment #166272 by Philip1978

Though Eddie Izzard was right about how the Flying things and the swimming things get out due to a loophole! (Said in the voice of James Mason, who was playing God) Did Noah really have to collect them as well?
Well yes, because salt water fish can't live in fresh water and vice versa (in general, there are some that can live in both). So he would have to have had some stonking great aquariums on board as well.

The one that gets me is the fact that while he could take only two (or seven) animals on board then how come these were enough to feed the other animals that need live food.

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3317. Comment #166279 by Brian English on April 23, 2008 at 4:48 am

 avatarIrate_atheist:
I'm sterblich.

My mate Spartacus says I'm Brian. Beat that for an argument to authority. Oh, and all my forms of ID say the same thing (ID != Intelligent Design in this case.) Does that make me a Brian (strong leader in Irish?)

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3318. Comment #166282 by debbyo on April 23, 2008 at 4:59 am

OMFG. Listen to the creativity of Flood apologists :
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/really-a-flood-and-ark


We also find many dinosaurs that were trapped and fossilized in Flood sediment. Widespread legends of encounters with dragons give
another indication that at least some dinosaurs survived the Flood. The only way this could happen is if they were on the Ark.
Juveniles of even the largest land animals do not present a size problem, and, being young, they have their full breeding life ahead of them. Yet most dinosaurs were not very large at allâ€"some were the size of a chicken (although absolutely no relation to birds, as many evolutionists are now saying). Most scientists agree that the average size of a dinosaur is actually the size of a sheep.
For example, God most likely brought Noah two young adult sauropods (e.g., apatosaurs), rather than two full-grown sauropods. The same goes for elephants, giraffes, and other animals that grow to be very large. However, there was adequate room for most fully grown adult animals anyway.
As far as the number of different types of dinosaurs, it should be recognized that, although there are hundreds of names for different varieties (species) of dinosaurs that have been discovered, there are probably only about 50 actual different kinds.


Dragons, mind you, as proof of dinosaurs. This is priceless

Other Comments by debbyo

3319. Comment #166287 by debbyo on April 23, 2008 at 5:06 am

Uh-oh. According to this, birds are in:

The Ark did not need to carry every kind of animal�"nor did God command it. It carried only air-breathing, land-dwelling animals, creeping things, and winged animals such as birds. Aquatic life (fish, whales, etc.) and many amphibious creatures could have survived in sufficient numbers outside the Ark. This cuts down significantly the total number of animals that needed to be on board.


EDIT: oops, forgot the link: same as before: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/really-a-flood-and-ark

Other Comments by debbyo

3320. Comment #166289 by The Reverend Dark on April 23, 2008 at 5:08 am

 avatarThat's not even touching the fact that the story of Noah contains two disparate accounts of the flood (there is duplication throughout) this is a direct result of two traditions (north and south kingdoms) being concatenated into a single account.

Written for men, by men with lots of additional editing by men. The story of Noah is just that a story; it is not a historical account. To take it as anything other than a little morality play (obey or be fucked) takes a case of the galloping stupids.

That remnant, would be you; with your piss-poor knowledge of the bible and the history of the region that spawned the bible.

And for the record, I am not Spartacus.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

3321. Comment #166290 by phasmagigas on April 23, 2008 at 5:08 am

 avatar
You are claiming god does not exist, so prove it.

Simple isn't it.


remnant, you are not realising just how flawed your logic is right now.

I go into a lottery kiosk and say 'hey i got some winning numbers, i won $100'.

the guy says 'ok, lets see the ticket'.

I say 'what! im saying i won $100, i want it'

guy says 'you need the ticket as proof'

I say 'pha, prove that i dont have the ticket!!!'

remnant, does this make things a bit clearer??

whith your logic i should rightly be able to accuse somebody of a crime and unless they can prove they didnt do it then they are guilty, it just doesnt work like that.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

3322. Comment #166292 by irate_atheist on April 23, 2008 at 5:13 am

 avatar3323. Comment #166289 by The Reverend Dark -

Of course you're not Spartacus. Any fool knows that I'm Spartacus.

srsly

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3323. Comment #166293 by phasmagigas on April 23, 2008 at 5:13 am

 avatar
Believe in Zolar. That's called free will. See how far that gets you at judgement day.


that might work with 4 and 5 year old, but not here, pass.

anyway, you came here initially trying to knock evolution, cant you stick to that one? you've gone through the classic whacko sequence of evo>god>scripture>threats of judgement as your position fails.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

3324. Comment #166297 by BillySands on April 23, 2008 at 5:25 am

 avatardebbyo, check this out for evidence of man living with dinosaurs http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/133

The thing that is supposed to be Eryops just cracks me up.

Other Comments by BillySands

3325. Comment #166298 by The Reverend Dark on April 23, 2008 at 5:25 am

 avatarRemnent threatened through inference.

That's called free will. See how far that gets you at judgement day.


More ignorance from laughing boy. Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher. The kingdom of god was coming; soon; within the lifetime of those listening to him. The apocalypse of John continues this line of thought.

Still waiting. Every couple of years another nut-bar starts poncing about the end of days being nigh. They all end up with a case of shattered expectations as nothing comes of it; but that does not stop the next nut-bar from dropping trousers and squeezing out another fresh squirt of 'end-is-near' diarrhea. At the end of the day (not end-of-days) everyone is ankle deep in this stinking, ignorant, fundamentalist, bum-fudge.

So Remnant, dab your starfish clean and go find some small children who might believe your meally mouthed twattery.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

PS: Bartacus! I said my name was Bartacus! Take these nails out!

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

3326. Comment #166302 by phasmagigas on April 23, 2008 at 5:31 am

 avatarthe ark thing.

i challenge any ark believer to do the following thing:

run out to a meadow (a midwest one for arguments sake, thats where i am now) and see how long it takes you (actually they arent even hatched yet so august is a good time, you could find newly hatched in a few weeks if you look VERY carefully) to gather a male Neoconocephalus insiger, a very noisy katydid, you should be able to locate a male by sound quite easily, finding it is a bit trickier. anyway, once hes in the box run around and try to find a female, shes quiet but there should be one or two within a hundered yard circle, then put them together and then find various foods for them, a few flower heads, some seed heads, some smaller insects, get them some water (get ready to clean out their poo every few days), provide the female with an oviposition site (soil or hollow stems, im not sure), get the temp right also. then move onto finding a beetle, thats quite simple, beetles are very easy to find, when you find any given beetle the tricky part is finding another of the same species of the opposite sex and then trying to find its specific foodplant, some species are more picky than others, anyway, repeat this process until you have collected the several 1000 species of insect from a given midwest meadow. You can then start on the nematode worms, oh and the spiders next. Oh, did i need to explain the point i was making?????

yes, it is all rather silly isnt it. id go so far as to say that anybody who argues for the ark is almost a pervert, its a grotesque self indulgence.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

3327. Comment #166307 by phasmagigas on April 23, 2008 at 5:42 am

 avatar
The thing that is supposed to be Eryops just cracks me up.


id say it was closer to Canis.

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3328. Comment #166324 by BillySands on April 23, 2008 at 6:26 am

 avatar
id say it was closer to Canis.


I was thinking more Rattus. You have to laugh. I remember some site http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml
saying that the leviathan of the OT was evidence of dinosaurs. Specifically, they identified it as Kronosaurus (a pliosaur not a dinosaur)

Wonderr how they managed to maintain parasitoids on the ark too. Noah's family must also have been infected with every human specific pathogen too. Wonder how their tissues never turned to mush and bits gropped off of them. Wonder how the syphillis and clamydia never left them sterile?

Other Comments by BillySands

3329. Comment #166342 by gr8hands on April 23, 2008 at 7:08 am

Quick note: amazing that all the marsupials -- not mentioned in the bible, or known about in that part of the world at that time -- somehow managed to be collected by god and driven to the ark, were saved, and then taken back to exist only in Australia. And without being observed by anyone in between, or leaving any carcasses to be found (except in Australia).

Of course, even two young African Bush Elephants, two young African Forest Elephants, and two young Asian Elephants (all different species) would take up some room.

Then there are around 10,000 bird species (only a couple of which are mentioned in the bible or known of in that area), and all the millions of insect species (none of which are mentioned, most of which were not known of in that area).

Yup, once you start doing the math, using reality, actually thinking about it, you can't help but arrive at the conclusion that it isn't true. Those poor creotards are in such denial. They are a danger to themselves and society.

Other Comments by gr8hands

3330. Comment #166345 by Steve Zara on April 23, 2008 at 7:17 am

 avatarOne of the main problems I can see with the flood is the change in salinity of many aquatic environments. Many fish are adapted to only specific osmotic conditions, and all of the extra water, no matter what its composition, would have been a real problem. There would have been considerable mixing of fresh and sea water.

Just my 2c, as they say.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

3331. Comment #166346 by Dr Benway on April 23, 2008 at 7:17 am

 avatarPeople here are too productive. Who can do more than skim all these interesting conversations?
remnant: You are claiming god does not exist, so prove it.
No, we don't know there is no God. We're saying that the proposition "God exists" has not yet been proven. The burden of proof remains upon you, the person claiming that God exists.
I said that an unbeliever cannot properly interpret Scripture without guidance from the Holy Spirit.
The logical consequence of this position is facism, with something like a priestly caste ruling over the unsaved and novice believers. The power of the priestly caste would be unchecked, as there exists no reliable method to corroborate degrees of Holy Spirit guidance.

By insisting that people reason from evidence others can corroborate, we preserve a means to double-check the claims of those in power over us.

Big Science is our best defense against Big Bullshit.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

3332. Comment #166352 by BillySands on April 23, 2008 at 7:26 am

 avatar
One of the main problems I can see with the flood is the change in salinity of many aquatic environments. Many fish are adapted to only specific osmotic conditions, and all of the extra water, no matter what its composition, would have been a real problem. There would have been considerable mixing of fresh and sea water.


Not only that, many species have specific trophic requirements. Some only feed on coral polyps. Such a flood would wipe out coral reefs. Others are Algae scrapers - all that silt covering the food sources. Again, the flood can not account for the species flocks found in the African rift lakes either.

What about the bristle cone pines that are alive today that are older than the flood?

I feel sorry for these floodologists.

Other Comments by BillySands

3333. Comment #166354 by BillySands on April 23, 2008 at 7:33 am

 avatar
The power of the priestly caste would be unchecked, as there exists no reliable method to corroborate degrees of Holy Spirit guidance.


Then they can go to war with another sect who are told to worship slightly differently by the same so called holy spirit.

Other Comments by BillySands

3334. Comment #166355 by Sargeist on April 23, 2008 at 7:34 am

 avatargr8:

There was a letter to one or other of the broadsheets a while back (sorry, cannot recall exactly) that said, essentially, that creationism makes one viable prediction: that the geographic distribution of land animals should be rotationally symmetric about Mount Ararat.

Other Comments by Sargeist

3335. Comment #166357 by epeeist on April 23, 2008 at 7:35 am

 avatarComment #166342 by gr8hands

Yup, once you start doing the math, using reality, actually thinking about it, you can't help but arrive at the conclusion that it isn't true.
You see that's where your problem is, actually thinking about. You just have to have faith.

That naughty Quine gave a creotard the Sorites paradox in another thread (it actually went "whoosh", straight over his head but that is another matter). If one did the same with "The Flood" you have to wonder how many ad hoc explanations they would have to add in before they started thinking "hang on, this is getting silly". We have had the number of animal "kind" (whatever they are), distances, salt/fresh water fish, the amount of dung, food, dinosaurs, physical impossibility of a wooden boat of the size that is needed. There is loads of other stuff as well, source and sink for the water, the amount of water needed, no genetic bottlenecks, no death of corals, no single layer of sediment, no mixture of fossils etc.

Please tell me that sooner or later this will become so overwhelming that they just have to agree that it couldn't have happened. Please.

Other Comments by epeeist

3336. Comment #166360 by Sargeist on April 23, 2008 at 7:37 am

 avatarThere are so many irritatingly smug bloody ways that the goddists can get out of any problems we-who-are-not-entirely-cretinous raise about the flood:

Oh the animals were vegetarians on the ark
Oh, God made it so they didn't need as much food
Oh, God made it so that they didn't need their usual habitats

So many excuses, really, that I am left wondering why God didn't just make all those nasty horrible humans just vanish into thin air. Why all this dicking about with floods, and pillars of salt, and volcanic blah.

One of the main troubles with the god-botherers is that, I think, they actually *lack* imagination. Their God is just a human with the power turned up a bit. cf. my usual comments about the banality of miracles. What's that Jesus? Liquid into liquid again?! Woopee-fucking-do.

Other Comments by Sargeist

3337. Comment #166361 by Quetzalcoatl on April 23, 2008 at 7:37 am

 avatarEveryone-

fot the future: if someone talks about the Flood, first ask them to define what a "kind" is. If time of death doesn't immediately ensue, it will be amusing to watch them flop around struggling to answer.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

3338. Comment #166363 by Remnant on April 23, 2008 at 7:41 am

Re: Comment #166119 by MaxD on April 22, 2008 at 7:02 pm
You, "Um it seems like there is a lot of, um...unsubstantiated...um mindnumbing...er..assumption here."

You, "Actually, I think it is just possible that God is a second cause and that really it was the great mystical Cheeseburger (vastly more powerful than that late appearing douche the FSM) that first caused God."

Is that your "um...unsubstantiated...um mindnumbing...er..assumption here."

Other Comments by Remnant

3339. Comment #166366 by irate_atheist on April 23, 2008 at 7:42 am

 avatar3339. Comment #166360 by Sargeist -
What's that Jesus? Liquid into liquid again?! Woopee-fucking-do
Yeah, I can do better than that. Hell, I can turn water into a solid. I use something called a freezer. Even Jebus didn't have one of those.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3340. Comment #166367 by The Reverend Dark on April 23, 2008 at 7:43 am

 avatarQuetz, it is a nice suggestion, but futile.

When someone talks about the biblical account of the flood, they should be flooded with the facts that make that account impossible. Not improbable. Not unlikely. Impossible.

History, physics and of course, common fucking sense.

They should recieve the enlightening enema of this knowledge; and having recieved that enema, what little is left should be, as Hitchens so eloquently stated, be buried in a matchbox.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

3341. Comment #166373 by irate_atheist on April 23, 2008 at 7:49 am

 avatarRev - Please note, I carry a stack of empty matchbox at all times. Sometimes I use as many as four in a day.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3342. Comment #166376 by gr8hands on April 23, 2008 at 7:51 am

Remnant -- answer the "unicorn" mistranslation question! Feel free to get help from the holy spirit.

Other Comments by gr8hands

3343. Comment #166379 by Remnant on April 23, 2008 at 7:54 am

Re: Comment #166175 by Quetzalcoatl on April 23, 2008 at 12:53 am
You, "Re Remnant's praying-

"there's a particular kind of arrogant self-importance around the notion of praying for someone to see "the truth". As if the simple act of Remnant praying will be enough for God to directly intervene and "open our minds" whereas he wouldn't have before. Remnant, you must have a very high opinion of your importance in the eyes of God."

Not at all, I am just a humble sinner, saved by God's grace, and being obedient to the word of the Lord.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Other Comments by Remnant

3344. Comment #166381 by Philip1978 on April 23, 2008 at 7:56 am

 avatar
The power of the priestly caste would be unchecked


Its true you know, my power has gone unchecked, perhaps its because I spell my surname Priestley! :)


Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

3345. Comment #166382 by gr8hands on April 23, 2008 at 7:57 am

Remnant -- answer the "unicorn" mistranslation question!

Other Comments by gr8hands

3346. Comment #166388 by irate_atheist on April 23, 2008 at 8:03 am

 avatar3346. Comment #166379 by Remnant -

'tard.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3347. Comment #166389 by Remnant on April 23, 2008 at 8:04 am

Re: Comment #166298 by The Reverend Dark on April 23, 2008 at 5:25 am
Me, "That's called free will. See how far that gets you at judgment day."

You, "Remnent threatened through inference."

No, that is not a threat, it is a promise from the Lord. I am but a messenger, relaying the Word of the Lord. Deny or ignore the Lord's promise all you want, you cannot change his truth.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Other Comments by Remnant

3348. Comment #166393 by gr8hands on April 23, 2008 at 8:05 am

Remnant -- answer the "unicorn" mistranslation question!

Other Comments by gr8hands

3349. Comment #166395 by The Reverend Dark on April 23, 2008 at 8:06 am

 avatarHey Renmant,

So laughing boy, you ready to put your money where your mouth is and follow the lordly instructions to the letter?

Zip on to the end of Mark and get yourself some poisonous snakes and drink some deadly poison.

The validity of the last verses of Mark are up in the air, but let's face it, if you buy into the collected arsewipery of the old and new testaments, then poison and snakes are the least of your worries.

You believe in the flood, what's a little poison and snakes as a chaser to your intellectual suicide.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

3350. Comment #166397 by epeeist on April 23, 2008 at 8:08 am

 avatarComment #166379 by Remnant
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Now I don't hate you, but I do want you to do some good to me.

Last night, before I had to go and hit by 3 foot lumps of steel I asked you some questions. Namely, what makes ID science, what does it predict, how can the predictions be tested and falsified, what tests have been made and what were the results.

I have asked you this several times now without receiving an answer.

So in the spirit of "Ask and it shall be given to you" I would you to be so good as to give me the answers I have asked for.

Other Comments by epeeist
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