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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure — that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 3601 - 3650 of 9309 |

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3601. Comment #167466 by AllanW on April 24, 2008 at 4:44 am

 avatarEntirely agree debbyo; well said.

And Geoff, send some of the sunshine over here, please :)

Other Comments by AllanW

3602. Comment #167472 by debbyo on April 24, 2008 at 4:54 am

Sunny in England. Rainy in Australia. On a long weekend. ANZAC day long weekend. But let's not mention the war.

Other Comments by debbyo

3603. Comment #167473 by Slippy on April 24, 2008 at 4:55 am

Remnant,

I have a few questions for you if you're still around and will do me the courtesy of answering.

I have read the majority of your posts on this thread and as you seem to be the authority on how bible god works you should be able to answer no problem.

You say in one of your posts that bible god will deliver what we choose and that we must choose bible god in order to get some of the good stuff after we die. My questions are based upon this premise.

What happens to anybody who does not know about the bibles god (tribes people, deaf, dumb & mute people etc)? Will they die and get a shock to find that they are going to be cast into the eternal fires of hell because they didn't accept that jesus was resurrected?

What happens to all other believers?(non bible god believers)

What happens to all the people who died before jesus? they couldn't have accepted that he was resurrected could they, what happens to them? Are they just really unlucky and have to burn? can't be just, fair and loving that can it?

I only ask because these are genuine worries for me. I hate to think that some poor tribesman who has no concept of how loving and just bible god is, is going to burn in hell for eternity when he doesn't even know the rules. Can god not pop a bible down to him so he has a fighting chance?

Other Comments by Slippy

3604. Comment #167475 by The Reverend Dark on April 24, 2008 at 4:57 am

 avatarDebbyo, that is a nice take on the idiocy of freewill and god. I think you missed one point.

While conducting the robbery, the perp not only insists he love you, but demands that you declare your love for him; constantly. You would think that a omnipotent, omniscient, entity would be a little more self-actualized than that, but in the words of the late John Belushi, nnnnnoooooooo! This celestial douchebag craves your adulation; he made you, better get down and tell him how wonderful he is.

Fortunately gods (all gods) are imaginary; until proven otherwise. A proof that is certainly not forthcoming from any of the gibbering taints that have infested the site of late.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

3605. Comment #167477 by Geoff on April 24, 2008 at 5:01 am

 avatar3623. Comment #167466 by AllanW

And Geoff, send some of the sunshine over here, please :)


Will do; it's on the way!

Please acknowledge receipt..

Other Comments by Geoff

3606. Comment #167480 by Philip1978 on April 24, 2008 at 5:06 am

 avatarSlippy

I would like to add to that by asking just which particular ordination of Christianity is right?
From:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_different_types_of_Christianity_are_there


* Churches without sacramental Ordination
* ** Protestant
o *** Lutheran (Minor Exception)
Presbyterian
Methodist
o Anabaptist
o *** Baptists
Pentecostals
Brethren
Amish
o Non-Trinitarians
o *** Universalists
Unitarians
Quakers
* Restorationists
* ** Church of Jesus christ of Latter Day Saints (The Mormons)
o Jehovahs Witnesses
o Charismatics
o Christadelphians
* Episcopalian
* ** Anglicans, Episcopal churches, etc
* Catholic
* ** "Roman" Catholic (Western Rite Catholicism)
o *** Sedevacantists
Those who follow Anti-popes
Old Catholics
Catholics who Follow the Pope
o Eastern Orthodox (under the Patriarch of constantinople)
o *** Greek Orthodox
Russian Orthodox
Serbian Orthodox
et cetera
o Coptic (Under pope
* Gnostic or Esoteric Christianity


Then you have of course the number of Bible translations

http://www.internetdynamics.com/pub/vc/bibles.html

Which one is the right Bible to read?

Its all too confusing for me! Think I might stick to being the atheist I always have been, its easy to understand - I don't believe in gods!

:)
Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

3607. Comment #167484 by Tyler Durden on April 24, 2008 at 5:14 am

 avatar*peeks out from behind the sofa*

Is he still here?
Answered any questions yet?

:-)

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

3608. Comment #167487 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 5:20 am

 avatar3621. Comment #167455 by debbyo -

Try having that metaphorical faith gun pointed at your girlfriend/boyfriends head - by their parents - and having to make a 'choice'. Even worse than having it pointed at your own head, I would contend.

These days when I see certain people, I just smile at them and remember my beloved Shakespeare:

Richard III - "I can smile, and murder whilst I smile."

Metaphorically speaking, of course.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3609. Comment #167490 by AllanW on April 24, 2008 at 5:23 am

 avatarBugger me! Twenty minutes later and the sun pops out. Nice work Geoff :)

Other Comments by AllanW

3610. Comment #167492 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 5:24 am

 avatar3629. Comment #167484 by Tyler Durden -

"You're gonna need a bigger sofa."

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3611. Comment #167494 by Philip1978 on April 24, 2008 at 5:25 am

 avatarAh so thats what Father Dougal Maguire is doing in your avatar picture!

Other Comments by Philip1978

3612. Comment #167495 by Roland_F on April 24, 2008 at 5:26 am

3628. Comment #167480 by Philip1978
You fogot the Carpocratians, an early Christian sect, considered pederasty to be a virtue and Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 AD - 215 AD) complained about their versions of Mark's Gospel which told of Jesus's homosexual exploits with young boys!
Or possible their ended up into todays Catholic church with this pederast drive "no child left behind".

Other Comments by Roland_F

3613. Comment #167498 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 5:30 am

 avatar3634. Comment #167495 by Roland_F -

Weeeeell, they purport to be the one true church of christ...

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3614. Comment #167500 by debbyo on April 24, 2008 at 5:31 am

The Reverend Dark posted:
Debbyo, that is a nice take on the idiocy of freewill and god. I think you missed one point.
While conducting the robbery, the perp not only insists he love you, but demands that you declare your love for him; constantly.


Yes, I was going to add that if he asked me to bow down and kiss his boot, I would choose to do that rather than lose my head. But then I found the whole idea of forced adoration just too repellent to explore. How could you love someone who is threatening to torture you if you don't love him? If it's a bit of short-term fawning for long-term gain, then they should own up. Or will that give the game away and then god will know that they are just pretending to like him to get to heaven. On the other hand, if their love is sincere and they really do love someone who is threatening to torture them, then they are in an abusive relationship and should get out now. The fact that the relationship is an imaginary one should make it easy.

Other Comments by debbyo

3615. Comment #167506 by Geoff on April 24, 2008 at 5:39 am

 avatar3631. Comment #167490 by AllanW

Bugger me! Twenty minutes later and the sun pops out. Nice work Geoff :)


No problem! Just keep praying to me...

The impossible I do at once; miracles (like bringing sunshine to Manchester) take a little longer!

Other Comments by Geoff

3616. Comment #167507 by colster on April 24, 2008 at 5:39 am

Steve Zara, "Quantum theory - specifically Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle - states that something can come from nothing."

Remnant, Wrong. You are once again confusing causality with predictability. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle describes our inability to simultaneous predict the speed and location of subatomic particles, for example electrons. It does not prove that the movement of subatomic particles is uncaused. It only describes our inability to predict the speed and location of subatomic particles at any one time. The inability to predict the speed or location of a subatomic particle does not mean that that their movement is uncaused.


Remnant, are you proposing that god wilfully controls the movements of every sub-atomic particle in the entire universe, even those which are billions of light years away from his chosen people? What mechanism does he use? Like some infinite puppet-master? Is that what string theory is all about?

Other Comments by colster

3617. Comment #167514 by epeeist on April 24, 2008 at 5:54 am

 avatarComment #167507 by colster

Remnant, are you proposing that god wilfully controls the movements of every sub-atomic particle in the entire universe, even those which are billions of light years away from his chosen people?
And if so, how do you reconcile that with people having free will?

And you might also add in, dying in "natural" disasters.

Other Comments by epeeist

3618. Comment #167518 by Frankus1122 on April 24, 2008 at 6:07 am

 avatarepeeist,
I am glad to see you here.
The other day you were "chuffed", I believe was the word used to describe your feeling of pride, at the success of your fine fencers.
Congratulations again.

I know the feeling you had as I am still a bit high from one of my students receiving an award from the Lieutenant Governor (Queen's representative in Ontario) yesterday.
My student won first place for his age category in an art competition with over 1400 participants.
It was a pretty big deal with Senators and MPs in attendance at the awards ceremony.
I am sorry that this is a complete highjack of the thread but I am very proud.
I think epeeist justified his bragging with a claim that some of his boys could be used as muscle against unruly trollers.
Perhaps my boy could draw a picture for the trollers incapable of understanding the words we write.
I'll post photos for anyone interested as soon as I can.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

3619. Comment #167523 by debbyo on April 24, 2008 at 6:13 am

It does not prove that the movement of subatomic particles is uncaused. It only describes our inability to predict the speed and location of subatomic particles at any one time. The inability to predict the speed or location of a subatomic particle does not mean that that their movement is uncaused.

Scott Bidstrup's symptoms of the religious mind virus (I haven't read it closely yet) lists "(5) The dissociation of the ideas in the mind of the believer from the reality he sees all around him." Looking at the above quote, you can see how the ideas in this mind and reality are not on first-name terms. And all attempts to encourage a friendship have utterly failed. Reality is his gun to the head. It's telling him that "one day you will die".

Other Comments by debbyo

3620. Comment #167525 by tulum on April 24, 2008 at 6:16 am

Hi I am a newie and won't be getting involved much here (as i feel overwhelmed by the members knowledge of the bible and science) but just want to say how well you have treated the "fairy/santa "believers on this thread. I mean NOAHS ARK as history!!!!!!!! I haven't got quite as much patience as you lot.
PS Thanks to Remnant for giving me a good laugh.

Other Comments by tulum

3621. Comment #167527 by epeeist on April 24, 2008 at 6:19 am

 avatarComment #167518 by Frankus1122
I am sorry that this is a complete highjack of the thread but I am very proud.
I am not sure that it is a complete hijack. We are constantly accused of living miserable, nihilistic lives with no meaning. Personally I think the feeling of joy in helping someone to an achievement is one of the things that gives my life meaning. It sounds as though you have similar feelings.

Anyway, just to show you how fast these guys move, here is a short clip - http://www.nw-fencing.org.uk/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=73&page=view&catid=8&PageNo=1&key=2&hit=1

Other Comments by epeeist

3622. Comment #167530 by debbyo on April 24, 2008 at 6:25 am

Irate atheist points out:
Try having that metaphorical faith gun pointed at your girlfriend/boyfriends head - by their parents - and having to make a 'choice'. Even worse than having it pointed at your own head, I would contend.


You're right, I hadn't thought of that. Possibly because I didn't raise my children with any faith. I would have thought, though, that if you didn't believe yourself, then you wouldn't feel you were risking your children's (or partner's)eternal life. You would only worry surely if you doubted your atheism (an agnostic atheist?).

Edit. Sorry, for some reason I thought you said "children". It's late and I'm going to bed.

Other Comments by debbyo

3623. Comment #167537 by Frankus1122 on April 24, 2008 at 6:38 am

 avatarHere is the link to a photo of my student and the Lieutenant Governor and his wife.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25951175@N05/2438008309/

Other Comments by Frankus1122

3624. Comment #167568 by Slippy on April 24, 2008 at 7:06 am

3628. Comment #167480 by Philip1978

Aaawwwww.

He'll never answer now. For the sake of the question I'll keep it simple. The bible in question is Remnants bible. Remnants very own print. If Remnant has several bibles then I'll accept his favourite.

I'm all giddy with anticipation.

Other Comments by Slippy

3625. Comment #167576 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 7:13 am

Re: Comment #167455 by debbyo on April 24, 2008 at 4:20 am
Your "robbery" free will analogy is based on several false premises. You are assuming that man is good, you are assuming God is forcing one to accept Him, you are assuming God is evil as in the robber, etc. As an aside, your analogy is also a contradiction of a premise of evolutionary theory, that being descent through natural selection and survival of the fittest. Without God's moral law, the robber is just taking advantage of a premise of evolution, survival of the fittest. Without God's moral law, morality becomes relative. The robber's actions are simply relative to his moral standards. Your moral standard may be different, but how can you hold the robber to your standards? If moral standards are simply the result of evolution, then the robber and your standards are just determined by different evolutionary forces. In addition, I must ask, why are you concerned about ultimate judgment from a God that you believe does not exist? Why are you concerning yourself with an eternal life that you do not believe exists? These are contradictions and are evidence that you may harbor some doubt bout the certainty of your beliefs. If you truly believe that all there is is this natural world, then these things should be of no concern to you.
God did not create man in a fallen state. When God created man, He created man in His image. Man was good. God created man to have fellowship with Him. You are also assuming that man is good.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
God loved man and wanted man to love Him but He also wanted that love to be out of choice, free will. True love can only originate out of free will. Forced love is not love. God gave man a free will rather than forcing man to love Him by denying man a free will. God did not want false robotic love. We express our love for God by obedience to His commands.
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
God gave man one command that being to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The problem arose when satan deceived Eve, and Adam was then also deceived.
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
They trusted in satan, not in God and bought into the deception that they would and could "be as gods".
At this point, sin entered the world. Sin is disobedience to God. God did not force man to be disobedient; man chose disobedience with free will. At this point man's sin nature separated man from God. God had a problem. God is holy and just. Because of his holiness, God cannot allow sin into His presence. His justness demands punishment for sin. He would not be just if He did not punish sin. So God had this problem, man chose separation from Him. God, as Creator would be perfectly just in destroying His entire creation. God owes us nothing. But God loved His creation so much and wanted a way that fallen man could be reconciled with Him, a holy and just God that He implemented a divine plan. He loved man so much that he came to earth, manifested as Jesus, His only Son and lived a sinless life, and suffered and died as a propitiation, a payment for man's sin, past present, and future. Man's free will prevents Him from living a sinless life. All men are sinners, even those that accept Christ as their Savior. I am a sinner. No one can live a sinless life. The difference is, that those that have accepted Christ are counted righteous based on their faith in Christ and his sacrifice. Doe that mean that once saved, one can go on intentionally sinning. No. Obedience to God means trying to live a life of obedience to His will. True saving faith results in a spiritual rebirth and a desire to be obedient to the Lord. This does not mean that a saved Christian will not slip up but it should be an exception rather than the rule. If one claims to be a Christian but lives in complete and willful disobedience to God and lives a life of intentional sin, then there is a very high probability that they did not experience true salvation and rebirth. All those that accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior are counted righteous in front of God through Christ's sacrifice. Salvation is by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Many has a free will to accept or reject this plan of salvation. God does not force anyone to accept His free gift. Those that accept it have eternal life. Those that choose to reject it choose their own destiny, eternal separation from God. God is just in that he will give us what we choose.

Getting back to your robbery analogy, unlike the robber, God is not forcing anybody to do anything against their will. We have complete freedom to accept or reject His plan of salvation. We can choose eternal fellowship with H, or eternal separation from Him. God's plan of salvation is a life raft from our fallen state. We are already lost because we are fallen and our sin nature and free will prevents us from living a sinless life. What god has done, out of love for His creation, is provide a life raft, a way out of our lost position. We do not have to accept it. It is our choice. God respects our free will choice and will honor that choice what ever that may be. That is true love and true justice.
Rather than complain about the life raft, we should be thankful that God loves us enough, and that through His mercy and grace, has provided us with a method of redemption which he had no obligation to do. He did it out of love because God is love.
Finally, you wrote, "I know they want to save us. But lordy, it's hard not to want to save them sometimes. It's tragic."

What do you consider tragic about a person wanting to live a moral life in obedience to a God they believe in? To try to avoid lying, stealing, fornication, the use of profanity, lust, adultery, greed, jealousy, etc. trying to live a life helping the less fortunate in society in an altruistic manner. That is not tragic, it is honorable. In addition, if God did not exist, there would be no absolute higher moral law and morality would be relative to the individual. If evolutionary theory were true, then morals would be relative to the individual and therefore no one would be in a position to object to another person's standard of morality, or "moral evolution". Anything would be acceptable. In fact, many of the qualities I listed above are in opposition to the survival of the fittest premise of evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory would reward many of those qualities under the survival of the fittest model.

Other Comments by Remnant

3626. Comment #167583 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 7:21 am

Re: Comment #167514 by epeeist on April 24, 2008 at 5:54 am

"Remnant, are you proposing that god wilfully controls the movements of every sub-atomic particle in the entire universe, even those which are billions of light years away from his chosen people?"

No, God created the laws of nature at the time of creation which control our natural world. Current origin of the universe theory conforms with the thought that at the time of the "big bang" the laws of nature began to exist as did space, time, energy, and matter.

Other Comments by Remnant

3627. Comment #167584 by Steve Zara on April 24, 2008 at 7:21 am

 avatarComment #167576 by Remnant
What do you consider tragic about a person wanting to live a moral life in obedience to a God they believe in?


Because the only "evidence" for such a God is that person's own internal feelings and their beliefs about the feelings of others. This means people are taking as definite some very dodgy sources of morality. This leads to some very problematic definitions of "moral", which can include slavery, the oppression of women and homosexuals, genital mutilation and so on.

There is not the slightest bit of evidence that there is any objective and independent standard of morality, and yet religion causes people to confidently claim that they know the divine and absolute truth based on nothing more than old scribblings and gut feelings. That can be very dangerous.

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3628. Comment #167585 by Philip1978 on April 24, 2008 at 7:21 am

 avatarCool MORE Bible Quotes!


As promised:

Judges 19 Verses 22:24

22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."


What a lucky bunch of ladies, both raped, one killed but at least the house guest was ok! Sweet Loving Lord at work again!

STOP QUOTING THE BLOODY BIBLE!

Slippy, am so sorry, I didn't mean to ruin it all for you! :)

Philip

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3629. Comment #167590 by gr8hands on April 24, 2008 at 7:25 am

Frankus1122 -- congratulations to your student, and to you as well!!

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3630. Comment #167592 by Steve Zara on April 24, 2008 at 7:27 am

 avatarComment #167583 by Remnant
No, God created the laws of nature at the time of creation which control our natural world.


What mechanism did he use to create these laws?

Current origin of the universe theory conforms with the thought that at the time of the "big bang" the laws of nature began to exist as did space, time, energy, and matter.


No. Most physicists believe that there is an independent foundation of the laws of nature which is not dependent on the Universe, or on time, or on God. Examples of such foundations are String Theory and Loop Quantum Gravity.

If evolutionary theory were true, then morals would be relative to the individual and therefore no one would be in a position to object to another person's standard of morality, or "moral evolution".


No. Evolutionary theory requires that groups of inidviduals of a species get along with each other to a certain degree. Behaviour patterns can be inherited, and have to compete with other possible behaviour patterns. This leads to evolutionarily stable strategies, such as forms of co-operation.

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3631. Comment #167593 by Tyler Durden on April 24, 2008 at 7:28 am

 avatarComment #167576 by Remnant
God created man to have fellowship with Him.
Awww, is your God lonely? Or just bored?

Got any evidence of this, or do you claim to actually know the mind of your God??

How do you know your God did not "create" humans as some kind of sick experiment? We could all be just ants in his giant ant-farm.

You're simply using Wishful Thinking to make your "case". You don't have any evidence for what you say or posit, nada, zip, zero, so you simply type what you hope is true.

Are you 12 years of age?

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3632. Comment #167603 by Peacebeuponme on April 24, 2008 at 7:52 am

Remnant
If evolutionary theory were true, then morals would be relative to the individual and therefore no one would be in a position to object to another person's standard of morality, or "moral evolution".
This is the one religious argument I find really bizzare. Are you saying that, if it were shown that there were no objective basis for morality (it has, but I know you don't accept that), you would no longer object to me stealing from you, or attacking you?

(btw - when it comes to things that don't cause me or others harm, I am in no position to object to another's activities, from a moral standpoint. The trouble with religion is that it always wants to interfere.)

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3633. Comment #167604 by Frankus1122 on April 24, 2008 at 7:54 am

 avatar

What do you consider tragic about a person wanting to live a moral life


Nothing

in obedience to a God they believe in?


Which God? There are many different gods and many different interpretations of what those god believe is moral behaviour. There is quite a difference of opinion in the Christian church, as Philip has pointed out.


To try to avoid lying, stealing, fornication, the use of profanity, lust, adultery, greed, jealousy, etc. trying to live a life helping the less fortunate in society in an altruistic manner. That is not tragic, it is honorable.

Okay.



In addition, if God did not exist, there would be no absolute higher moral law and morality would be relative to the individual.

The problem here is related to the problem outlined above. How do you know what god wants? You are sure that your interpretation of your holy book is the correct one, just as everyone who has a different holy book and a different interpretation is sure they are correct. Who is right? You can't rely on your interpretation of your holy book as this would then be allowable to everyone else with a holy book and an interpretation.
This is a problem that you need to address.



If evolutionary theory were true, then morals would be relative to the individual and therefore no one would be in a position to object to another person's standard of morality, or "moral evolution". Anything would be acceptable.

If your interpretation of the Bible is your interpretation of the Bible then everything you said above is also true for you.
Think about it.


In fact, many of the qualities I listed above are in opposition to the survival of the fittest premise of evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory would reward many of those qualities under the survival of the fittest model.


Someone else may be better able to deal with this but I would say you have a limited understanding of our current understanding of moral behaviour in the light of evolutionary forces.


And gr8hands: Thanks.

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3634. Comment #167609 by Peacebeuponme on April 24, 2008 at 7:58 am

Frankus1122
In fact, many of the qualities I listed above are in opposition to the survival of the fittest premise of evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory would reward many of those qualities under the survival of the fittest model.
Someone else may be better able to deal with this but I would say you have a limited understanding of our current understanding of moral behaviour in the light of evolutionary forces.
I'm being simplistic, but altruism seems to have been a pretty successful trait, if you look at where we are as a species.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

3635. Comment #167610 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 8:01 am

Re: Comment #167473 by Slippy on April 24, 2008 at 4:55 am
You, "You say in one of your posts that bible god will deliver what we choose and that we must choose bible god in order to get some of the good stuff after we die. My questions are based upon this premise.

You asked, "What happens to anybody who does not know about the bibles god (tribes people, deaf, dumb & mute people etc)? Will they die and get a shock to find that they are going to be cast into the eternal fires of hell because they didn't accept that jesus was resurrected?"

Our finite minds cannot possibly comprehend the entirety of God's plan. I am not stating that I do. No one does and no one will until He returns. God's thoughts and ways are higher than our thoughts and ways. That being said….

You are assuming that there are "good people" that are not deserving of death. The Bible teaches that all have sinned and are deserving of death. All people are accountable to God whether they have "heard about Him" or not. The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature, Romans 1:20 and in the hearts of people, Ecclesiastes 3:11.
If someone has not heard of Christ but because of the God consciousness written in their heats, believes in God and tries their best to live moral lives, God will, in His power bring someone to share the Gospel to that person. We cannot know how God will deal with every situation but God is just and is love and He, being all-powerful will insure that his will is done and will deal with each situation based on his mercy, grace, and goodness.

The question I have for you is why are you concerned about others when you have heard the Gospel and, I assume, have not placed your faith in Christ? Also, why would you be concerned about others' relationship to a God I assume, you do not believe exists?

You asked, "What happens to all other believers?(non bible god believers)"

Again, I do not make the rules, I am but a messenger, a sinners saved by the grace of God. Here is what the bible, the word of God reveals.

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
You asked, "What happens to all the people who died before jesus? they couldn't have accepted that he was resurrected could they, what happens to them? Are they just really unlucky and have to burn? can't be just, fair and loving that can it?"

Since the fall of man, the basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ. No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that one pivotal event in the history of the world. Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saints.

God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation. Those that died before Christ but had faith in God and were obedient to Him, before God's revelation in Christ are saved by their faith in God, based on His revelation to them and therefore justified through Christ's sacrifice. Christ died for all sins, past present, and future.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

The requirement for salvation has always been faith.

You, "I only ask because these are genuine worries for me. I hate to think that some poor tribesman who has no concept of how loving and just bible god is, is going to burn in hell for eternity when he doesn't even know the rules. Can god not pop a bible down to him so he has a fighting chance?"

God is in control and His will, will be done. Rather than worrying about others state of salvation, I suggest you focus on yours by seeking the truth. If you are truly concerned about the salvation of others, then accept Christ and help spread the Gospel to those that are troubling your heart.

Other Comments by Remnant

3636. Comment #167614 by al-rawandi on April 24, 2008 at 8:02 am

 avatarSteve,




Well done sir, well done.


Why is it so hard for people to understand that "morals" as we know them exist because co-operation helps propel society forward. However a balance between this and a degree of individualism and initiative is the best for society.

Morals ARE a product of our evolution. Societies that get along better, flourish. Those that fight unendingly... well fight unendingly.

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3637. Comment #167616 by Peacebeuponme on April 24, 2008 at 8:03 am

Remnant

Daw 8:12 - christianity is a fairy story.

I win.

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3638. Comment #167619 by gr8hands on April 24, 2008 at 8:05 am

Frankus1122 -- you're welcome. (Atheists really give the most genuine compliments, because theists tend to say "praise god!" as if god had anything to do with the achievements of any human.)

Other Comments by gr8hands

3639. Comment #167621 by Quetzalcoatl on April 24, 2008 at 8:09 am

 avatarRemnant-

Rather than worrying about others state of salvation, I suggest you focus on yours by seeking the truth


You aren't being asked these questions because the posters are concerned about "others state of salvation". You're being asked them to establish what your views are, and to highlight the inconsistencies in said views.

Also:

The question I have for you is why are you concerned about others when you have heard the Gospel and, I assume, have not placed your faith in Christ?


You don't need to be Christian to be concerned about others.

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3640. Comment #167624 by Philip1978 on April 24, 2008 at 8:12 am

 avatarFrom the mouth of Dawkins

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world."

Me too!

Right, I see more Bible quotes are in order!

Zechariah 14 1:2


1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.



Remnant, do you actually take any notice of these bits or is it something you just put down to God having a bit of bad day, not at his Godly best?

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

3641. Comment #167625 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 8:13 am

Re: Comment #167603 by Peacebeuponme on April 24, 2008 at 7:52 am
Me, "If evolutionary theory were true, then morals would be relative to the individual and therefore no one would be in a position to object to another person's standard of morality, or "moral evolution"."

You, "This is the one religious argument I find really bizzare. Are you saying that, if it were shown that there were no objective basis for morality (it has, but I know you don't accept that), you would no longer object to me stealing from you, or attacking you?"

I didn't say that, I said that under the evolutionary premise of survival of the fittest, the robber would just be following evolutionary dictates,taking advantage of his stronger survival skills, and as an evolutionist you would be in no position to condemn him for doing what evolved naturally. You might not like it, but he would just be following evolutionary dictates.

You are also confusing religion with God's plan of salvation. Religion is man's attempt to reach up to God through works. Salvation in Christ is God reaching down to fallen man with a lifeline through love and grace. I can't speak for religion, I serve Christ.

Other Comments by Remnant

3642. Comment #167627 by al-rawandi on April 24, 2008 at 8:15 am

 avatarRemnant,




Answer the following


Please tell us whether you will be drinking poison or handling venomous serpents to prove your loyalty to Christ. It says you can do so without harm in Mark 16:18 and Luke 10:19.

Can you not answer this?

Other Comments by al-rawandi

3643. Comment #167630 by Slippy on April 24, 2008 at 8:18 am

EDIT - Thanks for answering the questions I asked. I appreciate it. Few more for you though on something else you wrote & a couple from your answers to my original questions,

You say If someone has not heard of Christ but because of the God consciousness written in their heats, believes in God and tries their best to live moral lives

How do I find out more about this god consciosness written into the heart?

How do you know that jesus wasn't a nut proclaiming to be the son of / the actual bible god. If, as I am sure the bible states, jesus actually said he was the lord, would this not make bible god angry that people believed him? I was under the impression that if you put faith in something other than bible god it ticked him off a bit.

3647. Comment #167576 by Remnant

Remnant - At this point, sin entered the world. Sin is disobedience to God. God did not force man to be disobedient; man chose disobedience with free will. At this point man's sin nature separated man from God. God had a problem. God is holy and just. Because of his holiness, God cannot allow sin into His presence. His justness demands punishment for sin


If bible god created everything surely he created sin? If not how did it enter the world? Did man create it? if so bible god has to have sin in him as he created man in his own image. why didn't bible god just not make sin? or when he came across it just delete it, surely bible god has some kind of undo button. Is sin just disobedience to bible god? how then is stem cell research now an improved deadly sin? I have not seen anything in the bible relating to stem cell research?

My Gran said that sin comes from a mixture of bats ear and toads nads. You need to simmer it in sea water for several hours and just before it's ready put a pinch of dried skin in, a pinch mind, any more and it turns into something else completly. If you want new and improved sin you have use a pinch of dried fairy skin and leave it a little longer.

In answer to your question about me putting my faith in christ - No, i'm afraid I have not. I am a follower of Gran, the holy mothers mother, the creator of all we see today.

Other Comments by Slippy

3644. Comment #167635 by epeeist on April 24, 2008 at 8:21 am

 avatarComment #167625 by Remnant
I didn't say that, I said that under the evolutionary premise of survival of the fittest, the robber would just be following evolutionary dictates,taking advantage of his stronger survival skills
This is simply nonsense. You really need to find out what "fit" means in biological terms.

Now, you still need to answer some of my questions which you have studiously been avoiding. However, I think Al-Rawandi's question is of higher priority.

So, could you get a friend to post a video on Youtube of you extracting the venom of a snake and drinking it.

Other Comments by epeeist

3645. Comment #167640 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 8:27 am

Re: Comment #167621 by Quetzalcoatl on April 24, 2008 at 8:09 am

"You aren't being asked these questions because the posters are concerned about "others state of salvation". You're being asked them to establish what your views are, and to highlight the inconsistencies in said views."

They are not "my views". I do not determine truth and neither do you. They are God's revelation of truth. All we can do is to find the truth and then conform our lives to that truth.

Me, "The question I have for you is why are you concerned about others when you have heard the Gospel and, I assume, have not placed your faith in Christ?"

You,"You don't need to be Christian to be concerned about others."

I never said one did nor have I said that all atheists are either immoral of do not care about others. In fact, many people that call themselves Christian are immoral and do not care about others. Just because a duck claims to be a whale does not make them one.

The point I was making was that it is a bit of a contradiction and rather irrational for one to believe that God does not exist and then express concern about how that God, that they claim does not exist, deals with humans that they claim he did not create.

If atheists claim to be so rational in their thought, then when they make irrational statements, then they are not immune from questions regarding their reasoning.

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3646. Comment #167642 by phatbat on April 24, 2008 at 8:29 am

 avatar3647. Comment #167576 by Remnant

Getting back to your robbery analogy, unlike the robber, God is not forcing anybody to do anything against their will. We have complete freedom to accept or reject His plan of salvation.


In that case then the robber is not forcing him either, he is free to choose to live or to die. The Robber is giving him that free choice to make, at least the Robber is letting him know he has the choice in the first place, and what is required of the victim is actualy something he has control over whether to do or not.

Once you have got over the initial issue that the robber is no worse than this god then we can move onto the next problem. Which is that the god doesn't tell each of us we have the choice in the first place (at least the robber does that). He requires us to demonstrate gullibility in order to just believe he is there even though there is no evidence of his existance and a lot of evidence against it. But, but, but it is only through NOT being gullible that we can shield ourselves from believing in other gods and generaly avoid being taken advantage of by conmen. And if we believe in the wrong god then we also go to hell. So we are required to not use the very faculty of incredulity that we have to use in order to get through life not being tricked.

Please do not confuse the 2 aspects to this point remnant. 1st point is that if your imaginary god is not forcing anyone then neither is the robber with a gun. The 2nd point is the arguement of requiring us to be both credulous and incredulous at the same time over many equaly bad god stories all of which having no evidence for them.

An please refrain from listing bible verses, they are not required to deal with this issue of reasoning.

Other Comments by phatbat

3647. Comment #167645 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 8:32 am

 avatarWow debbyo is my hero! Great post!

Other Comments by MaxD

3648. Comment #167646 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 8:36 am

 avatarReverend Dark said of the great perp in the sky:
While conducting the robbery, the perp not only insists he love you, but demands that you declare your love for him; constantly. You would think that a omnipotent, omniscient, entity would be a little more self-actualized than that, but in the words of the late John Belushi, nnnnnoooooooo! This celestial douchebag craves your adulation; he made you, better get down and tell him how wonderful he is


I hasten to add, hoping that it hasn't been added already, this is a classic sypmtom of violent sex offended behavior.

Other Comments by MaxD

3649. Comment #167650 by Frankus1122 on April 24, 2008 at 8:38 am

 avatar

They are not "my views". I do not determine truth and neither do you. They are God's revelation of truth. All we can do is to find the truth and then conform our lives to that truth.


How can you say this in light of the post I made above:





In addition, if God did not exist, there would be no absolute higher moral law and morality would be relative to the individual.



The problem here is related to the problem outlined above. How do you know what god wants? You are sure that your interpretation of your holy book is the correct one, just as everyone who has a different holy book and a different interpretation is sure they are correct. Who is right? You can't rely on your interpretation of your holy book as this would then be allowable to everyone else with a holy book and an interpretation.
This is a problem that you need to address.





If evolutionary theory were true, then morals would be relative to the individual and therefore no one would be in a position to object to another person's standard of morality, or "moral evolution". Anything would be acceptable.



If your interpretation of the Bible is your interpretation of the Bible then everything you said above is also true for you.
Think about it.


Other Comments by Frankus1122

3650. Comment #167651 by Peacebeuponme on April 24, 2008 at 8:38 am

Remnant
I didn't say that, I said that under the evolutionary premise of survival of the fittest, the robber would just be following evolutionary dictates,taking advantage of his stronger survival skills, and as an evolutionist you would be in no position to condemn him for doing what evolved naturally. You might not like it, but he would just be following evolutionary dictates.
You did. You said that without objective morality nobody can object to another's morals. But they can. If I don't like something I can object to it. Whether or not there is some objective standard I would still "comdemn" someone for harming me. There is a reason why we all agree to have laws, so that anybody who carries out harm is kept away from us.

I find it curious that in the absence of objective morality, theists think our only option in dealing with agressors would be to hold our hands up and say "well, that's evolution for you. There's no standard by which we can judge him, so we have to let him carry on."

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