Lying for Jesus?Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."
It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.
Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?
3602. Comment #167472 by debbyo on April 24, 2008 at 4:54 am
Sunny in England. Rainy in Australia. On a long weekend. ANZAC day long weekend. But let's not mention the war.3603. Comment #167473 by Slippy on April 24, 2008 at 4:55 am
Remnant,3604. Comment #167475 by The Reverend Dark on April 24, 2008 at 4:57 am
3605. Comment #167477 by Geoff on April 24, 2008 at 5:01 am
And Geoff, send some of the sunshine over here, please :)
3606. Comment #167480 by Philip1978 on April 24, 2008 at 5:06 am
3607. Comment #167484 by Tyler Durden on April 24, 2008 at 5:14 am
3608. Comment #167487 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 5:20 am
3609. Comment #167490 by AllanW on April 24, 2008 at 5:23 am
3610. Comment #167492 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 5:24 am
3611. Comment #167494 by Philip1978 on April 24, 2008 at 5:25 am
3612. Comment #167495 by Roland_F on April 24, 2008 at 5:26 am
3628. Comment #167480 by Philip19783613. Comment #167498 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 5:30 am
3614. Comment #167500 by debbyo on April 24, 2008 at 5:31 am
The Reverend Dark posted:Debbyo, that is a nice take on the idiocy of freewill and god. I think you missed one point.
While conducting the robbery, the perp not only insists he love you, but demands that you declare your love for him; constantly.
3615. Comment #167506 by Geoff on April 24, 2008 at 5:39 am
Bugger me! Twenty minutes later and the sun pops out. Nice work Geoff :)
3616. Comment #167507 by colster on April 24, 2008 at 5:39 am
Steve Zara, "Quantum theory - specifically Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle - states that something can come from nothing."
Remnant, Wrong. You are once again confusing causality with predictability. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle describes our inability to simultaneous predict the speed and location of subatomic particles, for example electrons. It does not prove that the movement of subatomic particles is uncaused. It only describes our inability to predict the speed and location of subatomic particles at any one time. The inability to predict the speed or location of a subatomic particle does not mean that that their movement is uncaused.
3617. Comment #167514 by epeeist on April 24, 2008 at 5:54 am
And if so, how do you reconcile that with people having free will?
Remnant, are you proposing that god wilfully controls the movements of every sub-atomic particle in the entire universe, even those which are billions of light years away from his chosen people?
3618. Comment #167518 by Frankus1122 on April 24, 2008 at 6:07 am
3619. Comment #167523 by debbyo on April 24, 2008 at 6:13 am
It does not prove that the movement of subatomic particles is uncaused. It only describes our inability to predict the speed and location of subatomic particles at any one time. The inability to predict the speed or location of a subatomic particle does not mean that that their movement is uncaused.
3620. Comment #167525 by tulum on April 24, 2008 at 6:16 am
Hi I am a newie and won't be getting involved much here (as i feel overwhelmed by the members knowledge of the bible and science) but just want to say how well you have treated the "fairy/santa "believers on this thread. I mean NOAHS ARK as history!!!!!!!! I haven't got quite as much patience as you lot.3621. Comment #167527 by epeeist on April 24, 2008 at 6:19 am
I am sorry that this is a complete highjack of the thread but I am very proud.I am not sure that it is a complete hijack. We are constantly accused of living miserable, nihilistic lives with no meaning. Personally I think the feeling of joy in helping someone to an achievement is one of the things that gives my life meaning. It sounds as though you have similar feelings.
3622. Comment #167530 by debbyo on April 24, 2008 at 6:25 am
Irate atheist points out:Try having that metaphorical faith gun pointed at your girlfriend/boyfriends head - by their parents - and having to make a 'choice'. Even worse than having it pointed at your own head, I would contend.
3623. Comment #167537 by Frankus1122 on April 24, 2008 at 6:38 am
3624. Comment #167568 by Slippy on April 24, 2008 at 7:06 am
3628. Comment #167480 by Philip19783625. Comment #167576 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 7:13 am
Re: Comment #167455 by debbyo on April 24, 2008 at 4:20 am3626. Comment #167583 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 7:21 am
Re: Comment #167514 by epeeist on April 24, 2008 at 5:54 am3627. Comment #167584 by Steve Zara on April 24, 2008 at 7:21 am
What do you consider tragic about a person wanting to live a moral life in obedience to a God they believe in?
3628. Comment #167585 by Philip1978 on April 24, 2008 at 7:21 am
22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."
23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."
3629. Comment #167590 by gr8hands on April 24, 2008 at 7:25 am
Frankus1122 -- congratulations to your student, and to you as well!!3630. Comment #167592 by Steve Zara on April 24, 2008 at 7:27 am
No, God created the laws of nature at the time of creation which control our natural world.
Current origin of the universe theory conforms with the thought that at the time of the "big bang" the laws of nature began to exist as did space, time, energy, and matter.
If evolutionary theory were true, then morals would be relative to the individual and therefore no one would be in a position to object to another person's standard of morality, or "moral evolution".
3631. Comment #167593 by Tyler Durden on April 24, 2008 at 7:28 am
God created man to have fellowship with Him.Awww, is your God lonely? Or just bored?
3632. Comment #167603 by Peacebeuponme on April 24, 2008 at 7:52 am
RemnantIf evolutionary theory were true, then morals would be relative to the individual and therefore no one would be in a position to object to another person's standard of morality, or "moral evolution".This is the one religious argument I find really bizzare. Are you saying that, if it were shown that there were no objective basis for morality (it has, but I know you don't accept that), you would no longer object to me stealing from you, or attacking you?
3633. Comment #167604 by Frankus1122 on April 24, 2008 at 7:54 am
What do you consider tragic about a person wanting to live a moral life
in obedience to a God they believe in?
To try to avoid lying, stealing, fornication, the use of profanity, lust, adultery, greed, jealousy, etc. trying to live a life helping the less fortunate in society in an altruistic manner. That is not tragic, it is honorable.
In addition, if God did not exist, there would be no absolute higher moral law and morality would be relative to the individual.
If evolutionary theory were true, then morals would be relative to the individual and therefore no one would be in a position to object to another person's standard of morality, or "moral evolution". Anything would be acceptable.
In fact, many of the qualities I listed above are in opposition to the survival of the fittest premise of evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory would reward many of those qualities under the survival of the fittest model.
3634. Comment #167609 by Peacebeuponme on April 24, 2008 at 7:58 am
Frankus1122I'm being simplistic, but altruism seems to have been a pretty successful trait, if you look at where we are as a species.In fact, many of the qualities I listed above are in opposition to the survival of the fittest premise of evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory would reward many of those qualities under the survival of the fittest model.Someone else may be better able to deal with this but I would say you have a limited understanding of our current understanding of moral behaviour in the light of evolutionary forces.
3635. Comment #167610 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 8:01 am
Re: Comment #167473 by Slippy on April 24, 2008 at 4:55 am3636. Comment #167614 by al-rawandi on April 24, 2008 at 8:02 am
3637. Comment #167616 by Peacebeuponme on April 24, 2008 at 8:03 am
Remnant3638. Comment #167619 by gr8hands on April 24, 2008 at 8:05 am
Frankus1122 -- you're welcome. (Atheists really give the most genuine compliments, because theists tend to say "praise god!" as if god had anything to do with the achievements of any human.)3639. Comment #167621 by Quetzalcoatl on April 24, 2008 at 8:09 am
Rather than worrying about others state of salvation, I suggest you focus on yours by seeking the truth
The question I have for you is why are you concerned about others when you have heard the Gospel and, I assume, have not placed your faith in Christ?
3640. Comment #167624 by Philip1978 on April 24, 2008 at 8:12 am
1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
3641. Comment #167625 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 8:13 am
Re: Comment #167603 by Peacebeuponme on April 24, 2008 at 7:52 am3642. Comment #167627 by al-rawandi on April 24, 2008 at 8:15 am
3643. Comment #167630 by Slippy on April 24, 2008 at 8:18 am
EDIT - Thanks for answering the questions I asked. I appreciate it. Few more for you though on something else you wrote & a couple from your answers to my original questions,3644. Comment #167635 by epeeist on April 24, 2008 at 8:21 am
I didn't say that, I said that under the evolutionary premise of survival of the fittest, the robber would just be following evolutionary dictates,taking advantage of his stronger survival skillsThis is simply nonsense. You really need to find out what "fit" means in biological terms.
3645. Comment #167640 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 8:27 am
Re: Comment #167621 by Quetzalcoatl on April 24, 2008 at 8:09 am3646. Comment #167642 by phatbat on April 24, 2008 at 8:29 am
Getting back to your robbery analogy, unlike the robber, God is not forcing anybody to do anything against their will. We have complete freedom to accept or reject His plan of salvation.
3647. Comment #167645 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 8:32 am
3648. Comment #167646 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 8:36 am
While conducting the robbery, the perp not only insists he love you, but demands that you declare your love for him; constantly. You would think that a omnipotent, omniscient, entity would be a little more self-actualized than that, but in the words of the late John Belushi, nnnnnoooooooo! This celestial douchebag craves your adulation; he made you, better get down and tell him how wonderful he is
3649. Comment #167650 by Frankus1122 on April 24, 2008 at 8:38 am
They are not "my views". I do not determine truth and neither do you. They are God's revelation of truth. All we can do is to find the truth and then conform our lives to that truth.
In addition, if God did not exist, there would be no absolute higher moral law and morality would be relative to the individual.
The problem here is related to the problem outlined above. How do you know what god wants? You are sure that your interpretation of your holy book is the correct one, just as everyone who has a different holy book and a different interpretation is sure they are correct. Who is right? You can't rely on your interpretation of your holy book as this would then be allowable to everyone else with a holy book and an interpretation.
This is a problem that you need to address.
If evolutionary theory were true, then morals would be relative to the individual and therefore no one would be in a position to object to another person's standard of morality, or "moral evolution". Anything would be acceptable.
If your interpretation of the Bible is your interpretation of the Bible then everything you said above is also true for you.
Think about it.
3650. Comment #167651 by Peacebeuponme on April 24, 2008 at 8:38 am
RemnantI didn't say that, I said that under the evolutionary premise of survival of the fittest, the robber would just be following evolutionary dictates,taking advantage of his stronger survival skills, and as an evolutionist you would be in no position to condemn him for doing what evolved naturally. You might not like it, but he would just be following evolutionary dictates.You did. You said that without objective morality nobody can object to another's morals. But they can. If I don't like something I can object to it. Whether or not there is some objective standard I would still "comdemn" someone for harming me. There is a reason why we all agree to have laws, so that anybody who carries out harm is kept away from us.
3601. Comment #167466 by AllanW on April 24, 2008 at 4:44 am
And Geoff, send some of the sunshine over here, please :)
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