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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 3651 - 3700 of 9336 |

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3651. Comment #167616 by Peacebeuponme on April 24, 2008 at 8:03 am

Remnant

Daw 8:12 - christianity is a fairy story.

I win.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

3652. Comment #167619 by gr8hands on April 24, 2008 at 8:05 am

Frankus1122 -- you're welcome. (Atheists really give the most genuine compliments, because theists tend to say "praise god!" as if god had anything to do with the achievements of any human.)

Other Comments by gr8hands

3653. Comment #167621 by Quetzalcoatl on April 24, 2008 at 8:09 am

 avatarRemnant-

Rather than worrying about others state of salvation, I suggest you focus on yours by seeking the truth


You aren't being asked these questions because the posters are concerned about "others state of salvation". You're being asked them to establish what your views are, and to highlight the inconsistencies in said views.

Also:

The question I have for you is why are you concerned about others when you have heard the Gospel and, I assume, have not placed your faith in Christ?


You don't need to be Christian to be concerned about others.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

3654. Comment #167624 by Philip1978 on April 24, 2008 at 8:12 am

 avatarFrom the mouth of Dawkins

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world."

Me too!

Right, I see more Bible quotes are in order!

Zechariah 14 1:2


1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.



Remnant, do you actually take any notice of these bits or is it something you just put down to God having a bit of bad day, not at his Godly best?

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

3655. Comment #167625 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 8:13 am

Re: Comment #167603 by Peacebeuponme on April 24, 2008 at 7:52 am
Me, "If evolutionary theory were true, then morals would be relative to the individual and therefore no one would be in a position to object to another person's standard of morality, or "moral evolution"."

You, "This is the one religious argument I find really bizzare. Are you saying that, if it were shown that there were no objective basis for morality (it has, but I know you don't accept that), you would no longer object to me stealing from you, or attacking you?"

I didn't say that, I said that under the evolutionary premise of survival of the fittest, the robber would just be following evolutionary dictates,taking advantage of his stronger survival skills, and as an evolutionist you would be in no position to condemn him for doing what evolved naturally. You might not like it, but he would just be following evolutionary dictates.

You are also confusing religion with God's plan of salvation. Religion is man's attempt to reach up to God through works. Salvation in Christ is God reaching down to fallen man with a lifeline through love and grace. I can't speak for religion, I serve Christ.

Other Comments by Remnant

3656. Comment #167627 by al-rawandi on April 24, 2008 at 8:15 am

 avatarRemnant,




Answer the following


Please tell us whether you will be drinking poison or handling venomous serpents to prove your loyalty to Christ. It says you can do so without harm in Mark 16:18 and Luke 10:19.

Can you not answer this?

Other Comments by al-rawandi

3657. Comment #167630 by Slippy on April 24, 2008 at 8:18 am

EDIT - Thanks for answering the questions I asked. I appreciate it. Few more for you though on something else you wrote & a couple from your answers to my original questions,

You say If someone has not heard of Christ but because of the God consciousness written in their heats, believes in God and tries their best to live moral lives

How do I find out more about this god consciosness written into the heart?

How do you know that jesus wasn't a nut proclaiming to be the son of / the actual bible god. If, as I am sure the bible states, jesus actually said he was the lord, would this not make bible god angry that people believed him? I was under the impression that if you put faith in something other than bible god it ticked him off a bit.

3647. Comment #167576 by Remnant

Remnant - At this point, sin entered the world. Sin is disobedience to God. God did not force man to be disobedient; man chose disobedience with free will. At this point man's sin nature separated man from God. God had a problem. God is holy and just. Because of his holiness, God cannot allow sin into His presence. His justness demands punishment for sin


If bible god created everything surely he created sin? If not how did it enter the world? Did man create it? if so bible god has to have sin in him as he created man in his own image. why didn't bible god just not make sin? or when he came across it just delete it, surely bible god has some kind of undo button. Is sin just disobedience to bible god? how then is stem cell research now an improved deadly sin? I have not seen anything in the bible relating to stem cell research?

My Gran said that sin comes from a mixture of bats ear and toads nads. You need to simmer it in sea water for several hours and just before it's ready put a pinch of dried skin in, a pinch mind, any more and it turns into something else completly. If you want new and improved sin you have use a pinch of dried fairy skin and leave it a little longer.

In answer to your question about me putting my faith in christ - No, i'm afraid I have not. I am a follower of Gran, the holy mothers mother, the creator of all we see today.

Other Comments by Slippy

3658. Comment #167635 by epeeist on April 24, 2008 at 8:21 am

 avatarComment #167625 by Remnant
I didn't say that, I said that under the evolutionary premise of survival of the fittest, the robber would just be following evolutionary dictates,taking advantage of his stronger survival skills
This is simply nonsense. You really need to find out what "fit" means in biological terms.

Now, you still need to answer some of my questions which you have studiously been avoiding. However, I think Al-Rawandi's question is of higher priority.

So, could you get a friend to post a video on Youtube of you extracting the venom of a snake and drinking it.

Other Comments by epeeist

3659. Comment #167640 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 8:27 am

Re: Comment #167621 by Quetzalcoatl on April 24, 2008 at 8:09 am

"You aren't being asked these questions because the posters are concerned about "others state of salvation". You're being asked them to establish what your views are, and to highlight the inconsistencies in said views."

They are not "my views". I do not determine truth and neither do you. They are God's revelation of truth. All we can do is to find the truth and then conform our lives to that truth.

Me, "The question I have for you is why are you concerned about others when you have heard the Gospel and, I assume, have not placed your faith in Christ?"

You,"You don't need to be Christian to be concerned about others."

I never said one did nor have I said that all atheists are either immoral of do not care about others. In fact, many people that call themselves Christian are immoral and do not care about others. Just because a duck claims to be a whale does not make them one.

The point I was making was that it is a bit of a contradiction and rather irrational for one to believe that God does not exist and then express concern about how that God, that they claim does not exist, deals with humans that they claim he did not create.

If atheists claim to be so rational in their thought, then when they make irrational statements, then they are not immune from questions regarding their reasoning.

Other Comments by Remnant

3660. Comment #167642 by phatbat on April 24, 2008 at 8:29 am

 avatar3647. Comment #167576 by Remnant

Getting back to your robbery analogy, unlike the robber, God is not forcing anybody to do anything against their will. We have complete freedom to accept or reject His plan of salvation.


In that case then the robber is not forcing him either, he is free to choose to live or to die. The Robber is giving him that free choice to make, at least the Robber is letting him know he has the choice in the first place, and what is required of the victim is actualy something he has control over whether to do or not.

Once you have got over the initial issue that the robber is no worse than this god then we can move onto the next problem. Which is that the god doesn't tell each of us we have the choice in the first place (at least the robber does that). He requires us to demonstrate gullibility in order to just believe he is there even though there is no evidence of his existance and a lot of evidence against it. But, but, but it is only through NOT being gullible that we can shield ourselves from believing in other gods and generaly avoid being taken advantage of by conmen. And if we believe in the wrong god then we also go to hell. So we are required to not use the very faculty of incredulity that we have to use in order to get through life not being tricked.

Please do not confuse the 2 aspects to this point remnant. 1st point is that if your imaginary god is not forcing anyone then neither is the robber with a gun. The 2nd point is the arguement of requiring us to be both credulous and incredulous at the same time over many equaly bad god stories all of which having no evidence for them.

An please refrain from listing bible verses, they are not required to deal with this issue of reasoning.

Other Comments by phatbat

3661. Comment #167645 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 8:32 am

 avatarWow debbyo is my hero! Great post!

Other Comments by MaxD

3662. Comment #167646 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 8:36 am

 avatarReverend Dark said of the great perp in the sky:
While conducting the robbery, the perp not only insists he love you, but demands that you declare your love for him; constantly. You would think that a omnipotent, omniscient, entity would be a little more self-actualized than that, but in the words of the late John Belushi, nnnnnoooooooo! This celestial douchebag craves your adulation; he made you, better get down and tell him how wonderful he is


I hasten to add, hoping that it hasn't been added already, this is a classic sypmtom of violent sex offended behavior.

Other Comments by MaxD

3663. Comment #167650 by Frankus1122 on April 24, 2008 at 8:38 am

 avatar

They are not "my views". I do not determine truth and neither do you. They are God's revelation of truth. All we can do is to find the truth and then conform our lives to that truth.


How can you say this in light of the post I made above:





In addition, if God did not exist, there would be no absolute higher moral law and morality would be relative to the individual.



The problem here is related to the problem outlined above. How do you know what god wants? You are sure that your interpretation of your holy book is the correct one, just as everyone who has a different holy book and a different interpretation is sure they are correct. Who is right? You can't rely on your interpretation of your holy book as this would then be allowable to everyone else with a holy book and an interpretation.
This is a problem that you need to address.





If evolutionary theory were true, then morals would be relative to the individual and therefore no one would be in a position to object to another person's standard of morality, or "moral evolution". Anything would be acceptable.



If your interpretation of the Bible is your interpretation of the Bible then everything you said above is also true for you.
Think about it.


Other Comments by Frankus1122

3664. Comment #167651 by Peacebeuponme on April 24, 2008 at 8:38 am

Remnant
I didn't say that, I said that under the evolutionary premise of survival of the fittest, the robber would just be following evolutionary dictates,taking advantage of his stronger survival skills, and as an evolutionist you would be in no position to condemn him for doing what evolved naturally. You might not like it, but he would just be following evolutionary dictates.
You did. You said that without objective morality nobody can object to another's morals. But they can. If I don't like something I can object to it. Whether or not there is some objective standard I would still "comdemn" someone for harming me. There is a reason why we all agree to have laws, so that anybody who carries out harm is kept away from us.

I find it curious that in the absence of objective morality, theists think our only option in dealing with agressors would be to hold our hands up and say "well, that's evolution for you. There's no standard by which we can judge him, so we have to let him carry on."

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

3665. Comment #167652 by DamnDirtyApe on April 24, 2008 at 8:39 am

 avatarYou're very evasive Remnant. People are repeatedly asking you direct questions which you refuse to answer. That's very rude.

Slippy don't even bother arguing with his mumbo-jumbo. He's picking and choosing which bits in the bible he wants to respond to.

I like to pick and choose bits of knowledge myself, however I tend to pick the ones that EVIDENCE SUPPORTS.

Likewise, please don't go off and drink deadly poison: I know we're trying to proove a point by mentioning that bible quote but we don't actually want you to die.

I'm saying that because I'm convinced you might be stupid enough to give it a try. Well, Either that or you're an evasive hipocrite. I may describe you in nicer terms if you choose to answer Al Rawandi's and the others questions. That would be a smarter start.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

3666. Comment #167655 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 8:41 am

 avatar3667. Comment #167640 by Remnant -
The point I was making was that it is a bit of a contradiction and rather irrational for one to believe that God does not exist and then express concern about how that God, that they claim does not exist, deals with humans that they claim he did not create.
We are pointing out how repugnant your made up god is. We are also pointing out that, if he does exist - as you claim - he is a pisspoor communicator.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3667. Comment #167657 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 8:42 am

 avatarEpeeist,
Perhaps you can answer a long standing question I've had rattling around in my head, but never actually took the time to research.
Why are you guys tethered on those lines? And why is the contest more or less linear? (Poke me with no foils I am an ignoramus with regards to this sport!):)

Other Comments by MaxD

3668. Comment #167659 by steveroot on April 24, 2008 at 8:43 am

 avatar
3657. Comment #167610 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 8:01 am

"Our finite minds cannot possibly comprehend the entirety of God's plan."

Ah, yes... the "escape" clause. Useful in any tight situation.
Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

3669. Comment #167660 by Peacebeuponme on April 24, 2008 at 8:43 am

Remnant
The point I was making was that it is a bit of a contradiction and rather irrational for one to believe that God does not exist and then express concern about how that God, that they claim does not exist, deals with humans that they claim he did not create.
Please.

The comments about the logic of a postulated god's actions are there to highlight the absurdity of the proposition.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

3670. Comment #167662 by Frankus1122 on April 24, 2008 at 8:45 am

 avatar

They are not "my views".


But they clearly are your views.



They are God's revelation of truth.


Would that be the revelation of truth that god made to Mohammed?
That truth came after the Jesus truth.
What about Joseph Smith's revelation from the angel Maroni?

Think about it. Answer some questions.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

3671. Comment #167666 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 8:50 am

 avatar3678. Comment #167662 by Frankus1122 -
Think about it. Answer some questions.
Tsk tsk. Now you're asking him to do the impossible. Poor chap, he'll explode if he tries to do either of those things.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3672. Comment #167667 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 8:50 am

Re: Comment #167627 by al-rawandi on April 24, 2008 at 8:15 am
You, "Remnant,

Answer the following


Please tell us whether you will be drinking poison or handling venomous serpents to prove your loyalty to Christ. It says you can do so without harm in Mark 16:18 and Luke 10:19.

Can you not answer this?"

I really do not have the time, nor do I care to answer every off-the-wall claim from the biblically illiterate, especially when it is clear that they are not seeking the truth, just demonstrating their biblical illiteracy in a feeble attempt to mock the Lord. I'll humor you just this one time. I really don't enjoy pointing out your biblical illiteracy.


Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

In these verses, Jesus is instructing His disciples to go forth and spread the Gospel. Jesus is describing certain miracles that would accompany those who believed the gospel. In biblical times, people looked for a sign to confirm their message. Remember the early disciples did not have the Bible. Your mocking question revolves around the question, "Do these signs exist today?" These signs were intended primarily for the apostolic age, before the complete Bible was available in written form. Most of these signs are found in the Book of Acts:
Cast out demons (Act 8:7; Act 16:18; Act 19:11-16).
New tongues (Act 2:4-11; Act 10:46; Act 19:6).
Handle serpents (Act 28:5).
Drink poison without harmful effectsâ€"not recorded in Acts but attributed to John and Barnabas by the church historian Eusebius.
Lay hands on the sick for healing (Act 3:7; Act 19:11; Act28:8-9).
What was the purpose of these miracles? The answer is found in Heb 2:3
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Before the New Testament was available in completed form, men would ask the apostles and others for proof that the gospel was divine. To confirm the preaching, God bore witness with signs and wonders and various gifts of the Holy Spirit. Today we have the complete revelation of God's Word in the Old Testament and the need for signs and wonders in this sense have been supplanted with the confirmation of god's word in the Bible and fulfilled prophecy.

Now, go back to reading your cartoons.

Other Comments by Remnant

3673. Comment #167668 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 8:52 am

 avatarSorry to be peevish but this quote from Remnant really annoyed me.

Again, I do not make the rules, I am but a messenger, a sinners saved by the grace of God. Here is what the bible, the word of God reveals.


The self importance, hidden under a veneer of bullshit humility, revealed in this narcissistic statement is astounding.

"Out of the way, I'm on an errand...for God."
And the theist claims the atheist is self-absorbed.

Other Comments by MaxD

3674. Comment #167670 by Steve Zara on April 24, 2008 at 8:53 am

 avatarComment #167625 by Remnant
I didn't say that, I said that under the evolutionary premise of survival of the fittest, the robber would just be following evolutionary dictates,taking advantage of his stronger survival skills, and as an evolutionist you would be in no position to condemn him for doing what evolved naturally. You might not like it, but he would just be following evolutionary dictates.


No. You clearly have little understanding of how evolution works. In species like ours mass theiving is not an evolutionarily stable strategy. You can't say that "he is following evolutionary dictates".

You are also missing a major point. Evolutionary dictates aren't any basis for ethics. They just happen. They are like gravity, or entropy. There is not the slightest reason why we should approve (or disapprove) of someone doing something because of an evolved tendency.

Comment #167640 by Remnant
I do not determine truth and neither do you. They are God's revelation of truth.


You clearly have a problem then. Because if you don't determine truth, then you can have no idea of the truth or falsehood of what God reveals.

To rely on the revelation of God, you have to determine that what you are dealing with is truly the revelation of God....

Other Comments by Steve Zara

3675. Comment #167671 by gr8hands on April 24, 2008 at 8:54 am

Philip1978: quoting the evil from the bible looks fun. Let me try . . .

Exodus 22:18-20
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Clearly in violation of the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment.

Hey, that was fun!

Other Comments by gr8hands

3676. Comment #167672 by Galactor on April 24, 2008 at 8:54 am

 avatarTo all theists and particularly those from the Expelled website, finally on behalf of all atheists, some admissions. We atheists can no longer keep on lying this way. The arguments and views of a few theistic posters in this thread has just meant that we have to come clean - their logic, reasoning and knowledge is astounding and we are no match for it.

1. we accept that evolution is a lie; all other bits of science that don't contradict God are probably OK though;

2. most of us *do* actually know that God exists (and let's be clear about this, we mean the one and only Christian God - Allah, Zeus and the rest are for us just ways of teasing Christians), i.e., we know he exists, but we just don't like him and therefore we have decided to "pretend" he doesn't exist to really piss him off so that when we all die, endless burning torture awaits us; we're strange like that.

3. we also hope to drag more and more people into the fires of hell so as to really upset God;

4. we accept that ID is sound science even though no-one really knows what it is; ID is the best way we have of explaining the complexity of biological organisms although we are so attached to evolution that we just won't consider alternatives; we're so intransigent like that, aren't we?

5. the film "Expelled" has really got us worried. Finally someone has comprehensively managed to expose us for what we are; Nazis. That's right, we now finally admit that Darwin was himself a Nazi and he invented Darwinism to be able to put an antitheistic philosophy into the world so that we could destroy weak people and live out a worldview that pits the fittest against the weakest

6. most atheists I know eat their babies - certainly other people's babies and I know a few who live nearby to me that wouldn't baulk at a limb or two of their own offspring; this just goes to show how ridiculous the theory of evolution actually is and if you ever needed proof, here you have it.

7. As an atheist, I would just like to admit that atheism is indeed a religion; every night, before I go to bed, I pray to the great Void of Nothingness asking for Him to pervert the minds of those who don't believe in His (and it is definitely a male) non-existence;

8. Also, Richard Dawkins is the atheist Messiah soon to proclaim his earthly embodiment;

So there you are, the cat's out of the bag now. You've found us out with your in-depth probing and consumate knowledge. I begrudgingly congratulate you knowing how pleased Jeebs will be with all of you.

Other Comments by Galactor

3677. Comment #167674 by epeeist on April 24, 2008 at 8:57 am

 avatarComment #167667 by Remnant
I really do not have the time, nor do I care to answer every off-the-wall claim from the biblically illiterate
I would be very careful about making a blanket accusation of people on this site being "biblically illiterate".

You claim to be a "creationist". If I may, I will ask you two questions:
  1. How old do you think the earth is?
  2. Was there a global flood


Other Comments by epeeist

3678. Comment #167675 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 8:59 am

Re: Comment #167655 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 8:41 am

That is the grace of our Lord. He allows you to remain a fool and deny Him if you choose. He will give you the consequences of whatever path you choose.

On the other hand, the false gods and vain philosophies of man that you place your FAITH in, will not be able to help you come judgment day. All they will be able to do is share your accommodations and sorrow.

Don't fret however, God is just and will give you whatever you choose. He will not force Himself or salvation on you.

Why do you whine so much when you are given what you choose?

Other Comments by Remnant

3679. Comment #167677 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 9:00 am

 avatar3680. Comment #167667 by Remnant -
signs were intended primarily for the apostolic age, before the complete Bible was available in written form.


Oh, OK, you must be right. After all, it's written down in a book.

Goes to bookshelf and pulls down 'The Great Alchemical Work of Eirenaeus Philalethes, Nicholas Flamel and Basil Valentine'

Now, where's that method for transmuting lead to gold, it's written down so it must be true....

http://www.crucible.org/practical_alchemy.htm

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3680. Comment #167678 by Steve Zara on April 24, 2008 at 9:01 am

 avatarComment #167675 by Remnant
Why do you whine so much when you are given what you choose?


Because people like you are trying to restrict choice.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

3681. Comment #167679 by gr8hands on April 24, 2008 at 9:03 am

epeeist, #2 has already been answered as "yes", proving complete idiocy.

Other Comments by gr8hands

3682. Comment #167680 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 9:04 am

 avatar3686. Comment #167675 by Remnant -

One day I hope you realise just how full of shit you and your religion are. When that happens, boy, you'll be so embarassed.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3683. Comment #167682 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 9:05 am

Re: Comment #167674 by epeeist on April 24, 2008 at 8:57 am

Comment #167667 by Remnant

Me, "I really do not have the time, nor do I care to answer every off-the-wall claim from the biblically illiterate."

You, "I would be very careful about making a blanket accusation of people on this site being "biblically illiterate"."

I am sorry that you are struggling with comprehension regarding what I wrote. I wrote a direct response to a poster, i did not make an blanket claim, or any claim for that matter, regarding any other poster in my statement.

Are you just being intellectually dishonest again or is this the result of the non-education in the public indoctrination centers?

You, "You claim to be a "creationist". If I may, I will ask you two questions:

1. How old do you think the earth is?
2. Was there a global flood"

I have made no claims on the date of creation. The Bible does not reveal the creation date, nor does it reveal the age of the earth.

Yes there was a global flood.

Other Comments by Remnant

3684. Comment #167684 by The Reverend Dark on April 24, 2008 at 9:07 am

 avatarHey laughing boy,

So you say there was a global flood.

When do you think this event occurred?

I await your answer with unstolen choad.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

3685. Comment #167686 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 9:08 am

Re: Comment #167680 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 9:04 am

One day I hope and pray that you will come to a knowledge of the truth and accept God's gift of salvation in Christ, you will no longer be a lost and will have peace in your heart.

Other Comments by Remnant

3686. Comment #167687 by Corylus on April 24, 2008 at 9:08 am

 avatarRemnant
He will not force Himself or salvation on you.
Where were those verses you quoted all of 10 minutes ago... ah yes...
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
So, while not forcing himself, he is willing to do it by proxy.

Other Comments by Corylus

3687. Comment #167688 by al-rawandi on April 24, 2008 at 9:09 am

 avatarremnant,



How, then, do you determine what is directed strictly at the circle of people around Jesus (Apostles as you call them) and what is directed at all of humanity. Jesus only preached to those around him.

So it is rather convenient that you, or the church, or historians draw these demarcations when he is saying "drink poison", but when it comes to the stuff you can actually do, then he is talking to you. Funny how that works.

I find it amusing to no end that you say "go back to reading cartoons" when you spend your day reading a book that claims the earth is flat, Jesus held stars in his hand, and it is permissible to sell your daughter into slavery. And I am reading cartoons. That truly is the height of arrogance.

And it is furthermore extremely amusing that you claim we are Biblically illiterate (which really isn't true as I received a Catholic HS education) all the while you yourself are so completely illiterate with regards to evolution. No matter how many times you are corrected, or how many times you contradict yourself, no matter how foolish you look, you continue to make the same demonstrably false claims.

I see a man who makes a false claim, then contradicted by evidence retracts the claim, as a man who has the potential for intellectual greatness. I see a man who in the same situation merely adjusts his claim and willfully ignores the evidence as a man destined to a life of intellectual penury.

You sir are the latter... a homonculus in the presence of promethians.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

3688. Comment #167689 by Steve Zara on April 24, 2008 at 9:11 am

 avatarComment #167682 by Remnant

Yes there was a global flood.


Naah, sorry. Impossible. As Billy pointed out there are some very slow growing pine trees that are nearly 10,000 years old. Also, a flood would have killed the Australian stromatolites, which require a very specific salinity and exposure to sunlight.

Just doesn't work. Try again.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

3689. Comment #167690 by Klaatu barada nikto on April 24, 2008 at 9:11 am

 avatarGalactor: Comment #167672

I'm glad you didn't tell the theists about the ciphers from the God Delusion code.

Oh crap!

Other Comments by Klaatu barada nikto

3690. Comment #167691 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 9:12 am

 avatar3691. Comment #167682 by Remnant -
Yes there was a global flood.
A monumentally stupid statement from a monumentally stupid person.

That's not a ad hom - it's a straightforward observation.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3691. Comment #167692 by Frankus1122 on April 24, 2008 at 9:12 am

 avatarFrom Steve:

You clearly have a problem then. Because if you don't determine truth, then you can have no idea of the truth or falsehood of what God reveals.

To rely on the revelation of God, you have to determine that what you are dealing with is truly the revelation of God....


There is a fundamental logical inconsistency with Remnant's thought.
That's why I asked him to think a bit.
It is not very difficult to understand this.
Unless you have closed your mind to the truth.

The question you (and I) have asked must be answered before we can proceed any further.

But Remnant seems to prefer to remain in a fog of fuzzy half-thought.
This is what is so frustrating.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

3692. Comment #167693 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 9:12 am

Comment #167678 by Steve Zara on April 24, 2008 at 9:01 am

Comment #167675 by Remnant

Me, "Why do you whine so much when you are given what you choose?"

You,"Because people like you are trying to restrict choice."

Is that you attempt to restrict choice?

No one is trying to force you to do anything against your free will. I don't have that power. Only God can soften that hardened heart of yours and lead you to salvation.

If anyone is trying to restrict choice, it is atheists like you that try to destroy the faith of other people's children with satan's lies that you believe. You and Eve have a lot in common.

Other Comments by Remnant

3693. Comment #167694 by IDiot on April 24, 2008 at 9:14 am

After seeing the movie, I had no real opinion about Mr. Dawkins here. Being a 16 year old, I didn't believe myself smart enough to critique him. However, after reading this blog, and being referred to as an "IDiot" I find your biased-ness (can't spell that, I know, I'm stupid) and offensive way of refering to anyone who doesn't agree with you repulsive. Did you hear yourself Mr. Dawkins, when you actually said that an Intelligent being could have created life, as long as it wasn't "God".

Other Comments by IDiot

3694. Comment #167695 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 9:14 am

 avatar3693. Comment #167686 by Remnant -

Don't patronise me, you pathetic half-witted ignoramous.

By the way, how's your brother wooter?

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3695. Comment #167696 by al-rawandi on April 24, 2008 at 9:14 am

 avatarirate,




I told lol mahmood, it is an ad hom ("to the man") but it is also a factual observation.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

3696. Comment #167698 by Steve Zara on April 24, 2008 at 9:15 am

 avatarComment #167693 by Remnant
If anyone is trying to restrict choice, it is atheists like you that try to destroy the faith of other people's children with satan's lies that you believe.


You are trying to keep children ignorant in a world which urgently requires people to be educated. That is not just sad, it is dangerous. I would call it wicked.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

3697. Comment #167701 by Quetzalcoatl on April 24, 2008 at 9:17 am

 avatar
If anyone is trying to restrict choice, it is atheists like you that try to destroy the faith of other people's children with satan's lies that you believe. You and Eve have a lot in common


That's why Steve looks so familiar!

Remnant, I've said it before and I'll say it again. You talk rubbish.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

3698. Comment #167702 by irate_atheist on April 24, 2008 at 9:18 am

 avatar3704. Comment #167698 by Steve Zara -

I would go further and call it evil.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3699. Comment #167703 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 9:18 am

Comment #167692 by Frankus1122 on April 24, 2008 at 9:12 am

You,"But Remnant seems to prefer to remain in a fog of fuzzy half-thought."

Thank you your fuzzy half thought but I will pass.

I will stick with the truth of the risen Jesus.

I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Other Comments by Remnant

3700. Comment #167704 by Remnant on April 24, 2008 at 9:20 am

Re:Comment #167701 by Quetzalcoatl on April 24, 2008 at 9:17 am

You, "Remnant, I've said it before and I'll say it again. You talk rubbish."

Thank you for you rubbish but I'll pass.

Other Comments by Remnant
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