Skip to Main Content (access key 1)
Skip to Search (access key 2)
Skip to Search GO (access key 3)
Skip to comments (access key 4)
Skip to navigation (access key 5)
Skip to top of page (access key 6)
Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 4351 - 4400 of 9336 |

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

4351. Comment #168891 by Dr Benway on April 25, 2008 at 12:37 pm

 avatarPart of the standard mental status exam involves a statement about the patient's capacity to appreciate analogies, similarities, and abstractions. So the doctor might ask, "Mr. X, what do you think this saying might mean: 'People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.'"

I remember during my med student days my surprise at this response: "Well you don't thow stones because you don't want to break the glass."

People who look normal, make upper middle class incomes, and generally function fairly well, can be quite concrete. It's a shocking thing to realize.

Listen to the SciAm interview with Mark Mathis. Note his difficulty appreciating analogies and abstract arguments. Link here

This is part of what we're up against: brain damage.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

4352. Comment #168892 by ipashchuk on April 25, 2008 at 12:38 pm

riandouglas: ... I don't deny, I simply see no reason to believe in existence.


Ah, but what leads you to believe that there is no reason to believe in the existence of a deity?

Other Comments by ipashchuk

4353. Comment #168894 by Quetzalcoatl on April 25, 2008 at 12:40 pm

 avatarAny answer to the Flood questions yet?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

4354. Comment #168895 by riandouglas on April 25, 2008 at 12:42 pm

 avatar
ipashchuk: Ah, but what leads you to believe that there is no reason to believe in the existence of a deity?

Lack of evidence. Logical inconsistencies. Oh, and probably the initial reason - lack of need.

Anyone: Flood questions answered?

Other Comments by riandouglas

4355. Comment #168897 by Geodesic17 on April 25, 2008 at 12:43 pm

This is part of what we're up against: brain damage.


I don't know what is the source of the seeming inability to think in more than 2 dimensions. But I am inclined to agree that some people just aren't as smart as others.

Other Comments by Geodesic17

4356. Comment #168898 by Dr Benway on April 25, 2008 at 12:43 pm

 avataripashchuk, we don't say "God does not exist."

We say, "The proposition, 'God exists' has not yet been proven."

HTH

Other Comments by Dr Benway

4357. Comment #168899 by gr8hands on April 25, 2008 at 12:43 pm

I saw an article I thought germane to this should-have-been-terminated discussion:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080425/lf_nm_life/usa_harvard_dc

David Rockefeller donated $100 Million to Harvard. This would be included in the charitable giving report because Harvard is a 501(c)(3), but I don't think you would consider it a charitable organization.

Donations like this skew the numbers a bit, don't you think?

Better to check with the Chronicle of Philanthropy or Giving USA for somewhat better numbers, although they frequently make the same mistake.

However, they are clear that the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation gives out much more than any religious foundation. The Red Cross certainly does more good internationally than any particular religious group I can easily think of . . . And don't forget that they do so without forcing any religion down anyone's throat.

Of course, there's a billion non-religious people out there: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Yes, total dollars going to charity from atheists outweighs total dollars going to charity from theists.

Oops, gotta get back to class.

Other Comments by gr8hands

4358. Comment #168901 by Tyler Durden on April 25, 2008 at 12:45 pm

 avatarDr. Benway,

It's also the Cognitive dissonance that theists show on a daily, no, hourly rate, that really gets to me. No matter what you can show them through evidentiary means, they will somehow manage to twist it around, or simply ignore it, in order to hang onto their beliefs.

All the while keeping their head in the sand, or in the clouds.

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

4359. Comment #168903 by Geodesic17 on April 25, 2008 at 12:45 pm

There is a book by the pioneer of multiple intelligences that advocates that what every child deserves from an education is an understanding of classical music, evolution, and the moral lessons learned from the holocaust. I wish I could remember the name of the book at the moment. But the point is that it would promote a well rounded brain.

Other Comments by Geodesic17

4360. Comment #168904 by al-rawandi on April 25, 2008 at 12:47 pm

 avatarDr. Benway,



There are many aspects to intellect.

Mathematical,
Abstract,
Social


Some people lack one of these. And some people (*ahem* Remnant *ahem*) lack them all.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

4361. Comment #168905 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 12:48 pm

 avatarDo you guys think my your mama crack drove TruthID away?

Other Comments by MaxD

4362. Comment #168906 by Tezcatlipoca on April 25, 2008 at 12:49 pm

 avatarMaxD,

perhaps he/she realized that they had to run home to their mama...

Other Comments by Tezcatlipoca

4363. Comment #168908 by Steve Zara on April 25, 2008 at 12:49 pm

 avatarIt has been quite a good day in some respects. I have been productive work-wise, and I have won 3 out of 4 games of chess against my husband. The latter is good, as he is considerably brighter than I am, even though somewhat younger. I mentioned my discussions here with people such as Remnant. His view was insightful:

There is no point in discussion. Remnant and those like him are simply not rational. They don't accept rational standards of discussion or thought. They aren't actually insane, but they aren't prepared to play by any rules that challenge their beliefs.

I was pretty depressed by this, but I had to agree. Debating with those like Remnant is a waste of time and effort. Dr B's rules should apply. Three attempts to get them to answer questions, then they should be flagged as troll and ignored.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

4364. Comment #168910 by ipashchuk on April 25, 2008 at 12:50 pm

riandouglas: Lack of evidence.


What kind of evidence are you looking for?

Logical inconsistencies.


How so?

Oh, and probably the initial reason - lack of need.


Do you need a logical explanation though?

Other Comments by ipashchuk

4365. Comment #168911 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 12:51 pm

 avatarI am not sure I can get on board with this multiple intelligences thing. Its all more or less correlated. Intelligent people are simply intelligent people.

Futher the categories for Multiple intelligences is continuting to swell.

Other Comments by MaxD

4366. Comment #168912 by Dr Benway on April 25, 2008 at 12:51 pm

 avatarHave you noticed the creationist's frequent problem distinguishing a strawman representation of his position, verses a reasoned consequence of his position?

For example:

You say, "If the Bible is literally true and the OT laws apply to us today, we're duty bound to stone people for breaking the Sabbath. That's outrageous and inhumane!"

The creationist replies, "That's a strawman! God is not inhumane!"

Other Comments by Dr Benway

4367. Comment #168913 by riandouglas on April 25, 2008 at 12:54 pm

 avatar
Al: Some people lack one of these. And some people (*ahem* Remnant *ahem*) lack them all.

I think remnant has decent distract intelligence. They've been able to distract the conversation away from actually answering anything of note.

Remnant: Thesis concerning the reconciliation of the geoligical column and associated fossils with a world wide flood available anytime soon?

Other Comments by riandouglas

4368. Comment #168915 by Steve Zara on April 25, 2008 at 12:54 pm

 avatarComment #168892 by ipashchuk

Ah, but what leads you to believe that there is no reason to believe in the existence of a deity?


Which deity? What are its characteristics? How can we test for those?

Other Comments by Steve Zara

4369. Comment #168916 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 12:54 pm

 avatarRemnant certainly dropped lots of perspiration into his key board feverishly fretting about imagined strawmen.

Other Comments by MaxD

4370. Comment #168917 by riandouglas on April 25, 2008 at 12:57 pm

 avatar
MaxD: Remnant certainly dropped lots of perspiration into his key board feverishly fretting about imagined strawmen.

Well, given his slavish conviction to the reality of the imaginary, he's likely trying to clean the straw up, or use it to soak up the sweat.

Remnant: Flood?

EDIT: That sentence almost makes sense. Maybe I should get some sleep? Nah, I'll have to catch up on 10 pages here if I do.

Other Comments by riandouglas

4371. Comment #168918 by righton on April 25, 2008 at 12:59 pm

I am going to get killed for this but, I am a Yankees fan. Have been since I was 10, explains my collection of over fifty Don Mattingly cards.

Other Comments by righton

4372. Comment #168921 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 1:03 pm

 avatarDr. Benway!
I think another part of the disconnect at least on Remmynant was his inability to believe that people could remain unconvinced of God's existance with out willful rebellion.

He/she desperately needs that to be so or the picture of God as a merciful, just loving character implodes. Creation can not hide God's existence or They (trinities mind your step)would then have a hand in our unjust damnation.

I think that is a big part of his/her need to be right on this point about the obviousness of creation. All the other ignorance could be remedied were not for the fact they are incapable of imagining a different point of view. He couldn't even see the point of my story concerning the flood. It was a simple regression into absolutes from scripture. He has assiduously avoided my first borne of Egypt arguments because they also damn the character of God.
Remmynant does not want to say "Those babies were trash and have no right to live unless God want's them too." That is too much the petulant child to imagine in so grand a being as God.

Other Comments by MaxD

4373. Comment #168924 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 1:06 pm

 avatarIts not that its the Yankees that I give you a look askance righton, its that it is baseball.

Other Comments by MaxD

4374. Comment #168926 by riandouglas on April 25, 2008 at 1:07 pm

 avatar
ipashchuck: What kind of evidence are you looking for?

What do you have? If I can assume you're a believer, what evidence made you believe?
ipashchuck: Logical inconsistencies How so?

All religious books are internally inconsistent. An omni-everything god is not logical. The trinity is not logical. problem of evil.
ipashchuck: Do you need a logical explanation though?

I need the explanation to make sense. If someone claims access to that which no greater can be imagined, and then I find the belief is worthy of ridicule, I'm not likely to believe am I?

Remnant: Finished with the flood thing?

Other Comments by riandouglas

4375. Comment #168927 by Dr Benway on April 25, 2008 at 1:08 pm

 avatar
ipashchuk: What kind of evidence are you looking for?
The onus is on the person making the positive claim to defend that claim.

The default position, "claim X has not been proven" requires no defense.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

4376. Comment #168928 by ipashchuk on April 25, 2008 at 1:08 pm

Dr. Benway: You say, "If the Bible is literally true and the OT laws apply to us today, we're duty bound to stone people for breaking the Sabbath. That's outrageous and inhumane!"

The creationist replies, "That's a strawman! God is not inhumane!"


I think Jesus made a good point after writing something in the sand, "Those of you who are without sin, throw a stone" at the woman caught in adultery. As you know, all of them walked away... So, if the Bible is taken literally based on its full counsel, stoning someone is not logical because we are all guilty. So, yes, it is a strawman...

Other Comments by ipashchuk

4377. Comment #168930 by Dr Benway on April 25, 2008 at 1:10 pm

 avatar^ipashchuck, you missed this bit: "and the OT laws apply to us today."

Other Comments by Dr Benway

4378. Comment #168931 by riandouglas on April 25, 2008 at 1:10 pm

 avatar
MaxD: I think another part of the disconnect at least on Remmynant was his inability to believe that people could remain unconvinced of God's existance with out willful rebellion.

It might be the lack of sleep talking, but it seems that quoting the bible is akin to asking someone "What's 2 2?" - the truth of the biblical statements should be/are obvious, and yet we still do not worship. Therefore we must be denying Yahweh (or whoever) willfully.

Other Comments by riandouglas

4379. Comment #168932 by Steve Zara on April 25, 2008 at 1:11 pm

 avatarComment #168928 by ipashchuk

Are you here to debate based on science and reason, using the rules those require, or are you going to quote the bible?

Other Comments by Steve Zara

4380. Comment #168933 by The Reverend Dark on April 25, 2008 at 1:12 pm

 avatarIpashchuk.

One problem. The story of the woman taken in sin is not in the earliest manuscripts, it is a much later addition.

While it is a great story, it really doesn't belong in the synoptics.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

4381. Comment #168934 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 1:12 pm

 avatarRiandouglas,

That seems to be the way it is used isn't it?
They can't even accept their book is a cobble that could be wrong, and actually is internally inconsistent.

Other Comments by MaxD

4382. Comment #168935 by Remnant on April 25, 2008 at 1:13 pm

Comment #168862 by The Reverend Dark on April 25, 2008 at 12:10 pm


You, "It is dichotomies such as this that make you such a pusillanimous little airbag."

Is that your pusillanimous ruling?

By the way, those that have avatars like yours sometimes do that to compensate for their emasculated status or other impairment. Sort of like a comb-over or rug. What's your reason?

Other Comments by Remnant

4383. Comment #168937 by riandouglas on April 25, 2008 at 1:14 pm

 avatar
Dr Benway: The onus is on the person making the positive claim to defend that claim.

The default position, "claim X has not been proven" requires no defense.

To be fair(ish), ipashchuck is trying to word things in a way that implies it's me/us making a claim, and asking what evidence we would like. Thanks for calling him/her/it on it

I should leave the calls for Remnant to answer questions until it is actually active, I suppose...Nah
Remnant: Flood hypothesis?

Other Comments by riandouglas

4384. Comment #168938 by Quetzalcoatl on April 25, 2008 at 1:15 pm

 avatarRemnant-

roughly when was the Flood again?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

4385. Comment #168939 by Dr Benway on April 25, 2008 at 1:16 pm

 avatarIsn't Reverend Dark's avatar a dog looking out a window?

Other Comments by Dr Benway

4386. Comment #168940 by riandouglas on April 25, 2008 at 1:17 pm

 avatar
MaxD: That seems to be the way it is used isn't it?
They can't even accept their book is a cobble that could be wrong, and actually is internally inconsistent.

That might be akin to going into set theory or peano arithmatic (or however it's done) to prove the "2 2=4" statement.
Who in the general public even knows there is a way to do that, let alone could follow along.

Remnant: Flood?

Other Comments by riandouglas

4387. Comment #168941 by Shaden on April 25, 2008 at 1:18 pm

 avatarRemnant,
By the way, those that have avatars like yours sometimes do that to compensate for their emasculated status or other impairment. Sort of like a comb-over or rug. What's your reason?


Way to take the high road there Remnant. Tell me again why I would want to become more like you? I think Jesus should look for a new spokesperson.

Other Comments by Shaden

4388. Comment #168942 by Steve Zara on April 25, 2008 at 1:18 pm

 avatarComment #168935 by Remnant

So, when did this flood happen?

Other Comments by Steve Zara

4389. Comment #168943 by riandouglas on April 25, 2008 at 1:19 pm

 avatar
Dr Benway: Isn't Reverend Dark's avatar a dog looking out a window?

Ah, but the dog is obviously lacking in vurility.

Remnant: Got an update on the flood yet?

EDIT: Remnant, it wasn't nice to draw attention to Rev Darks problem like that. He was a victim of a sorcerer in the "Penis panic" mentioned earlier, and could not afford to pay to have his manhood returned

Other Comments by riandouglas

4390. Comment #168944 by al-rawandi on April 25, 2008 at 1:21 pm

 avatarSteve,



I find it difficult to believe your husband is smarter than you.

How much younger is he... if you don't mind me asking?



righton,


Yankees? I can forgive this, since we are both baseball fans. I played for the greatest American League team ever.... The Tampa Bay Devil Rays. I left the organization post haste.

They actually beat the Yankees quite regularly, usually when Kasmir was pitching.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

4391. Comment #168945 by Geodesic17 on April 25, 2008 at 1:21 pm

Remnant was commenting on atheists picking apart words. I'm wondering if he sees words as fixed objects.

Other Comments by Geodesic17

4392. Comment #168947 by The Reverend Dark on April 25, 2008 at 1:28 pm

 avatarRemnant didn't bother answering the question put to him.


Is that your pusillanimous ruling?

By the way, those that have avatars like yours sometimes do that to compensate for their emasculated status or other impairment. Sort of like a comb-over or rug. What's your reason?


It is my ruling sir, but it is hardly pusillanimous; You see, I answer the questions put to me insteal of prevaricating and waffling like the IHOP (badly and covered in unhealthy things.)

So when do you think Noah's flood occured there Remnant? More pusillanimous prevaricating on your part or are you going to give us an approximate date for this event that you believe in.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

PS: Oh, and the reason for my avatar? It is a nice picture of my dog watching squirrels. You can find a picture of me on this site if you are so inclined.

PPS.
Riandouglas

Ah, but the dog is obviously lacking in vurility.

I'll tell him you said that. I think he will be very hurt.

For the record I fear not the african penis ooga-booga any more than I fear the biblical god to hell ooga-boog. It takes a small, scared, mind to believe in such things without evidence.

My wife does occasionally shrink my penis though; by bouncing energetically on it. It recovers quickly enough though, and no money changes hands.

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

4393. Comment #168950 by Remnant on April 25, 2008 at 1:29 pm

Comment #168847 by Diacanu on April 25, 2008 at 11:54 am

You, "Religious thought crime is superstition, and putting thought crime into practice as a concept by prosecuting it is totalitarian fascist tyranny."

You should do some political research before flapping. If you look at the "thought crime" legislation that has been recently proposed, you will find it coming from the secular left.

Other Comments by Remnant

4394. Comment #168951 by Radesq on April 25, 2008 at 1:29 pm

 avatara-r

I thought Kasmir only beat up on the Red Sox?

I think I remember Rev. Dark asking Remnant about the flood like a week ago...you guys are still waiting for an answer. That guy is a waste of keystrokes. I don't see Epeeist still going at him (at least on this page)I think it might be long past time to declare victory and move on.

Other Comments by Radesq

4395. Comment #168952 by Steve Zara on April 25, 2008 at 1:30 pm

 avatarComment #168944 by al-rawandi

8 years. He has just hit 40.

There are different kinds of smartness. My husband is far better at logic and reason. I am far more intuitive. We write software together. He is better at designing things. I am better at debugging - I can feel where something is likely to be wrong.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

4396. Comment #168955 by Geodesic17 on April 25, 2008 at 1:32 pm

You should do some political research before flapping. If you look at the "thought crime" legislation that has been recently proposed, you will find it coming from the secular left.


Works cited, please.

If you are arguing that keeping ID out of science class is under this category, then that is silly. Please ellaborate.

Other Comments by Geodesic17

4397. Comment #168958 by Remnant on April 25, 2008 at 1:33 pm

Comment #168947 by The Reverend Dark on April 25, 2008 at 1:28 pm

Sir, I have asked dozens of questions that are not responded to.

I realize that the secular left is fascist, demanding, and intolerant in beliefs but you do not dictate to me when or what I have to respond to.

Other Comments by Remnant

4398. Comment #168959 by Quetzalcoatl on April 25, 2008 at 1:33 pm

 avatarRemnant-

When was the Flood again?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

4399. Comment #168964 by riandouglas on April 25, 2008 at 1:37 pm

 avatar
Remnant: Sir, I have asked dozens of questions that are not responded to.

Perhaps because you've refused to indulge in the normal give and take which this sort of "debate" takes.
Also, you might want to list those questions, as I don't remember any going unaddressed - the other side to you being bombarded by questions by lots of "us" is that most of yours are likely to be answered due to there being lots of "us".

Remnant: Have you tested your flood hypothesis yet? How did it turn out?

Other Comments by riandouglas

4400. Comment #168965 by Geoff on April 25, 2008 at 1:37 pm

 avatar4371. Comment #168908 by Steve Zara
It has been quite a good day in some respects. I have been productive work-wise, and I have won 3 out of 4 games of chess against my husband. The latter is good, as he is considerably brighter than I am, even though somewhat younger. I mentioned my discussions here with people such as Remnant. His view was insightful:

There is no point in discussion. Remnant and those like him are simply not rational. They don't accept rational standards of discussion or thought. They aren't actually insane, but they aren't prepared to play by any rules that challenge their beliefs.


reminds me of this quote:

"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."

- Scott D. Weitzenhoffer


Other Comments by Geoff
Reload Comments | Back to Top


Comment Entry: Please Login

Register a new account

Username:

Password: