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Monday, June 9, 2008 | Reason : Wingnut News | print version Print | Comments

Document Logical Proof of the Existence of a Divine Creator, Why Atheism is Not Logically Sound

by Canada Free Press

Thanks to Clayton Smith for the link.

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/3426

Logical Proof of the Existence of a Divine Creator, Why Atheism is Not Logically Sound

One of the beautiful aspects of self evident truths is that they can be proven on both the simplest and the most complex of levels. By contrast, to make an argument for what is in fact an illogical fallacy, one must use plenty of skill, sophistry and remain beholden to a dogmatic protection of what is really an illogical position.

Yet even after a detailed case is made for the illogical side of the argument, it can instantly be deflated like a balloon with the simplest poke of clear logic. It can also be attacked piece by piece with even greater skill and logic, stemming from a steadfast pursuit of the truth.

Nowhere does the above hold more true than with regard to the existence of a Divine Creator. Proof of a conscious Creator is readily available. The simplest proof (yet one that no atheist has ever been able to counter effectively) is that a universe of this size and magnitude does not somehow build itself, just as a set of encyclopedias doesn't write itself or form randomly from the spill of a massive inkblot.

The atheist, on the other hand, needs to build a plausible case for this irrational scenario. But first, let's examine how irrational it is:

No one in their right mind would claim that 10,000 hundred story buildings built themselves from randomness, even over time. Yet those who doubt the existence of a Creator believe that an entire universe, containing all of the billions of elements necessary for life to form, may have come about without a builder. As such, they give credence to billions of times more coincidences to having come about.

They believe that not only did whole planets appear spontaneously, but also believe that the fact that these planets do not collide as meteors do, that they have gravity, that they contain the proper atmospheric conditions for life to take hold and contain sustenance to sustain this life all happened by mere fluke. Yet the same people would (rightly) denounce as preposterous the notion that the Egyptian pyramids built themselves. They would point to the structure and detailed design of these impressive inanimate objects. Yet they outrageously chalk up to coincidence billions upon billions of times more detail and design in all parts of life found in this universe.

To be sure, someone can build sandcastles in the sky on how the spontaneous coming together of molecules, then turning into bricks, changing further into buildings, culminating in 10,000 perfectly aligned skyscrapers all built with no builder is a plausible scenario. They can form intricate arguments to support this theory. But in the end, the entire proposition remains offensive to logic itself.

While there are complex proofs of the Divine, some dating back to the philosophical writings of Plato and others using modern science, the most clearly logical concepts are all readily apparent and simple. An entire world does not create itself.

Furthermore, proof of a Divine creator can be seen more readily in the small and intricate details of the universe than by considering the enormity of the universe as a whole.

Consider the following:

Even if all the planets somehow formed themselves, all somehow staying in perfect orbit and possessing gravity, even take for granted that all the chemicals needed for life were so how there as well, by sheer happenstance, would it then be possible for billions of species to spontaneously come about, each with a male and female of each kind so that they could exist in the long run?

Even if this were possible, would the simplest of animals have been able to survive were it missing even one essential organ? Would human beings survive if one organ or cavity was missing or displaced, even after somehow being otherwise perfectly formed with no designer? The simple fact is that even if humans were so perfectly formed, if food, water, sunlight or any one of a host of details necessary for life to exist were somehow missing, human life would have lasted on this planet for a maximum of a few days.

The contention of atheists, that life simply adapted to the conditions it found itself in is also irrational, as were this to be the case we'd have animals that could solely subsist on snow and ice in some regions. By contrast, the ability to adapt to small conditional changes is also a fascinating aspect of the body, one that shows that much detail was put into its design.

The central point of the atheist, that all somehow came about randomly through evolution, does not help them either. While a separate column will deal with the scientific arguments for creationism and evolution, the topic is not germane here. Going back to the example of a set of encyclopedias, a set of Britannicas does not write itself, not from one massive ink blot and not starting out as dots, which form letters, which align into perfect phrases, paragraphs, books and sets. In fact, it's even more incredulous to say that they aligned so perfectly, step by step and dot by dot than it is to say that all appeared at once. Yet that's what the atheist contends when he chalks up life's existence to gradual and detailed formation with no Creator at the helm.

However, despite the fact that even after much debate on the issue I have yet to meet an atheist who can make even a feeble argument to counter any of these points, they often feel that such grounded proofs aren't complicated enough. Just as a man who spends years coming up with a thousand reasons why an elephant is really a duck will not be persuaded of his error without first addressing all of his complicated fallacies, so too the atheist's contentions must be addressed in detail. For this reason, we will also address some of the more detailed proofs of the existence of the Divine.

Of the many philosophic and scientific arguments brought forth for the existence of the Divine, three stand out. The anthropic argument contends that the universe is too complex to have no Creator. This is in effect the central point of this column, although explained in a more common manner. The cosmological argument maintains that finite matter (original matter, which was clearly finite) cannot create a universe that is greater than itself. Especially compelling is the teleological argument, that the existence of a Creator can be seen from the fact that the universe works in perfect harmony, as would a giant machine. Gravity, orbits, chemical atmospheres and all other ingredients needed for life to exist come together in unison to allow such existence to happen. An enormous machine that works like clockwork needs to have a Creator.

The atheist would also do well to read Anthony Flew's latest book, "There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind." For decades, Flew was one of the leading proponents of atheism. But he eventually decided to give everything a second look and found that all he'd believed and so vociferously advocated for so long was wrong. Upon real analysis, he found that there is, in fact, proof of the Divine.

THE TRUTH OF OUR SIDE AND THE REAL CHALLENGE TO DEBATING ATHEISTS

But all of these reasons, in reality, are unnecessary. The youngest school child can tell you that a building does not build itself and that, by extension, neither does a universe. And this is the beauty of self evident truths. After all the proofs and reasoning in the world, they remain just as self evident, just as they are also, on the deepest levels, thoroughly profound. Here too, all that is needed to demonstrate proof of a Creator is that the world doesn't create itself, not instantly and not over time. All other issues can then be examined in that light.

However, we must realize that while the sophistry it takes to purport a falsehood can be easily countered, the person who has upheld such notions for decades must have each of his or her counterpoints addressed. This is able to be done smoothly, in light of the inherent logic that necessitates the existence of a conscious Creator, but it must be done thoroughly.

Encouraging atheists to open their minds to pure logic and to possibilities that they hitherto only sought to counter or to avoid on any pretext also involves an emotional challenge for them, as they must open themselves to the possibility of having to shed preconceived notions that they've held firm for decades. And that, rather than facts, is the primary challenge to exposing them to insightful logic. However, if they are willing to address the issue honestly, a search for the truth should be of paramount importance and enough reason for them to take an open look.

NOT RELIGION AND SCIENCE, BUT RELIGION AND SCIENTISTS

Scientists as a whole are increasingly open to the idea of a conscious Creator. They realize that science points to the complexity of the universe, a complexity that dictates the inevitability of a Creator. However, some stick to old ways and old dogmas. A question that arises is why these seemingly logical people possess such illogical beliefs. This fact alone has prevented many from considering the existence of a Creator. But when we understand the reason for their animus to belief, their bias comes to the forefront as opposed to any reasoned argument.

Throughout the 20th century, many scientists were enthralled with the progress that science had made. They mistakenly believed that the physical universe, instead of being a creation, contained all answers in and of itself. Any questions would be resolved by science. To look beyond that was viewed in disdain. The fact that logic necessitates that physical matter must have originated at some point and that a formed universe cannot emerge without a designer was overlooked in the hope that physical science would prove the impossible.

Other scientists, today a greater number than the more dogmatic former group, conceded that there may well be a Creator. But they were wholly disinterested in the subject. They too did not realize that our physical universe points to the fact that it was consciously designed. And many of them had the same rigid disdain for religion as the former.

What's true of both groups is that they refused to consider the subject. As such, their rejection of a Creator does not stem from some well reasoned research or thought, but rather from the absence of such reasoning. Their knowledge of religion and philosophy was on par with their knowledge of economics or any other subject that they had never studied. They knew as much about religion as they knew how to paint a house, the only difference between the two being that had they delved into the former instead of reflexively dismissing it, they would have found it to be of profound logic and give depth to their other areas of study.

But these scientists did not give religious or philosophical questions a moment's notice. And what becomes abundantly clear from their statements on the issue is that they have grave misconceptions about religion, misconceptions that stem from their lack of interest. And while it is their right to do so, reflexively and often emotionally dismissing a belief without giving it a moment's thought isn't logic, but rather the opposite of logic.

To be sure, these scientists are indeed very logical and analytical within their main doctrine. It's just that they refuse to examine that which transcends it. As such, anyone who gives credence their views on this issue should beware, as their opinions do not stem from logic. Scientists who have thought over the issue are generally in agreement on this as well.

THE BIBLE

One cannot conclude a column like this without mentioning philosophical and logical proofs of the Divinity of the Bible, the Torah. To begin with, the Bible is the only book in the history of mankind to make the claim that part of it was given by the Creator in front of an entire nation (of 600,000 families, totaling a few million people).

If someone were to come along today with a book, claiming that its Divine transmission had been witnessed by millions of people, they'd be laughed out of the room. One cannot convince an entire nation, including its greatest analytical thinkers and its most ardent skeptics, that such a transmission occurred and had been witnessed by them when it hadn't. To those who would counter "What if the Bible came along a few hundred years later?" (claiming to have been witnessed a few hundred years back), such a claim would have been met with equal ridicule, just as a book claiming to have been given by the Creator, as witnessed by millions in the 1700s would be met with ridicule today. There would have been a well known history of such a happening. Simply put, a book that claims to have been Divinely given to millions cannot take hold on a widespread level if it is not true.

That's a basic philosophical case. There are also more hard physical reasons that point to the Bible's Divinity. The Bible states in Genesis and in Jeremiah that the stars of the heaven cannot be counted. Scientists believed that the number of stars were only 1,100, those which could readily be seen. The Bible was way ahead of the time it was given and showed knowledge of that which could not have been known or seen by man.

The Bible also attested to the laws of thermodynamics, a field that science only hammered out thousands of years later. The first law of thermodynamics is that the total sum of matter and energy in the universe can never change. Energy can change into matter and vice versa, but their combined sum is always constant. Until this discovery, the Bible's statement that "there is nothing new under sun" seemed like a statement that was ready to be disproven. Reasoning went that somewhere in the universe there must be new energy or matter developing. But there wasn't. Universally accepted science showed us that less than 200 years ago. The Bible told us that about 3,000 years before.

More compelling is the Bible's clear attestation to the second law of thermodynamics (which was originally the first principle of this field, formulated by Sadi Carnot in 1824). This is that physicality becomes increasingly random and broken apart. Psalm 102 speaks of the heavens and the earth perishing and clearly implies a gradual decay, telling us this law well before it was discovered.

It should be noted here, at least for the sake of accuracy, that the Bible also speaks of a new heaven and earth, meaning a newly fortified one, after the Divine presence is revealed. Such a heaven and earth will exist continuously according to most Biblical commentary, but will reveal their Divine Creator within them. Eventual perfection of the world, after we've been given a chance to do our part, is a key tenet of most religion and is the only logical explanation for the Creation of a world in need of perfection. Such an advent also seems closer than ever according to any study of what the Bible says about its occurrence, especially in view of the rapid and radical changes the world has undergone in the last few decades alone. However, the physical universe as it stands now is in a slow state of decay (before it is refortified), a fact that only the Bible knew for thousands of years.

It should be noted that although this column is comparatively lengthy, it is still only a column and barely scratches the surface of the clear proofs that evidence the existence of the Divine and the Divine nature of the Bible, the Torah. The reader is encouraged to study further and to ask questions.


Yomin Postelnik is the President of IRPW, a company that offers business plans, funding advice and facilitation, SBA loan applications, SWOT analyses, bold and effective marketing strategies, general business development and grant writing and research for non-profits and certain qualified businesses. Call today for an initial consultation � (954) 946-4442 or email ypostelnik@InsidersReview.org

Comments 251 - 300 of 376 |

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251. Comment #191115 by Stuart Paul Wood on June 10, 2008 at 8:45 am

Ugh. the longest and most boring joke I've ever read.

I don't believe this is a serious piece. It has to be satire.

Other Comments by Stuart Paul Wood

252. Comment #191119 by MaxD on June 10, 2008 at 8:59 am

 avatarStryer,
Again and for the last time, I do not think faith is reasonable. Not in the slightest. I am saying that the faithful think faith is unnecessary because they have evidence. Go to a creationist website, you see they don't start with the premise of faith-a belief in a concept without benefit of evidence- they cite what they think qualifies as evidence.

I think Phil Rimmer perhaps refined my argument infinitely well with addition of a single word.
"Faith alone cannot sustain itself." Nor can it really win converts.

Styer the fact that you cannot see that most of us agree with your basic point that faith is bad reveals a great deal about you. The fact that you rail and rant and cuss at people who don't entirely agree with your summation reveals a great deal more.

Some of us are just pointing out that there is also another, important component to the story. You however continue to tilt at windmills. I certainly never said the religious had adopted a reasonable position. I certainl don't hold that to be the case. I have gone out of my way to make that clear. My point was that often they think they do hold the rational position, the more evidence based position.

My definition of faith was in most of my posts. Faith is a belief in things unseen, and requires no evidence.
EDIT: It is possible too that we are simply arguing about different things as a few others have suggested.

Other Comments by MaxD

253. Comment #191121 by Frankus1122 on June 10, 2008 at 8:59 am

 avatarComments by leigh,
Thanks. You said exactly what I was thinking.
It is odd that so many seem to understand the point while a small percentage of soaring intellects can't.
No worries. I have faith they will one day see the light.

P.S. Yeah, what MaxD said.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

254. Comment #191128 by phatbat on June 10, 2008 at 9:12 am

 avatar251. Comment #191103 by larhule

Stryer, I dig your Socratic fire. You obviously don't need it but consider this a handful of encouragement for pinning responders to their words! The shit you catch for 'attitude' is totally fruitless and only serves to preserve a cold slate for everyone to hold hands and engage in boring, mass eye rolls in response to another stupid religious treatise.


I don't really understand what this means.

Other Comments by phatbat

255. Comment #191131 by Podaar on June 10, 2008 at 9:19 am

 avatar251. Comment #191103 by larhule
You obviously don't need it but consider this a handful of encouragement for pinning responders to their words!
"What we have here...is failure...to communicate."

I may be way off base here but it looked like what Styrer was doing was 'pinning responders' for HIS words (meaning) not theirs.

Peace all. Faith in gods = bad. Agreed? :)

Other Comments by Podaar

256. Comment #191133 by severalspeciesof on June 10, 2008 at 9:20 am

 avatarStryer, MaxD et.al.

I've got some milk and cookies for all, or a bottle of Guiness for all (take your pick).
I believe you are ALL right, just that everyone seems to be talking past each other. Phatbat and leigh's responses are quite appropriate regarding 'faith/belief' distinctions.

I see the score here as:
Stryer: 1
MaxD et. al. 1 (or more if you count everyone individually)
Theists: 0

I come to this site precisely for the jab/punch/pirouette discussions that have just occurred on this concept of 'faith/belief' issue. Keep it up, it helps to sharpen (for those willing to learn) all our ideas. Just don't get bent too out of shape (stryer) as it then becomes harder to bend back, and can ruin a great mind.

Other Comments by severalspeciesof

257. Comment #191137 by MaxD on June 10, 2008 at 9:26 am

 avatarLeigh,
Excellent points and summary on the faith issue controversy.

I don't really have an idea which part of the faithful mind is more dangerous. The danger certainly has to begin with the indoctination process, every thing seems to build on that. But at somepoint, many of the faithful start talking about evidence, and reasons, delude themselves into thinking they have taken the logical positions.

It seems like they are stuck with their faith claim, whatever it is, and from there seek to make it not a faith claim, but an evidence based claim. However they are not proceeding in spirit of real inquiry, but selective, cherry picking. I think Phil Rimmer is fond of the, "If you go looking for God you will find God, best just to go looking." I think that is it. I could discuss cognitive disonance, and bias but I think other posters have explored that well enough.

EDIT:
Podaar-I agree with your final equation.

Other Comments by MaxD

258. Comment #191138 by irate_atheist on June 10, 2008 at 9:30 am

 avatar192. Comment #190895 by Styrer-
Ok. I state and hold that 'faith is belief without evidence' and you, MaxD, have the utter fucking gall to say, frowningly, that my definition is 'a simplistic critique and missed a huge point'.

The HUGE point I miss is: faithheads mean something different; by faith, they mean they are FUCKING EVIDENCE DRIVEN.

Fuck off, Max. Not a fucking chance.

I could not give a flying FUCK what the 'faith minded' - to whom you grant an extraordinary level of understanding and sympathy in their linguistic plight - think they are doing. OF COURSE they are proceeding by faith alone, and I am tiring of your consistent and despicable apology for them, while you deride MY thoughts here.

MaxD, you've really fucking made a mess on this one.

So what is YOUR definition of 'faith', if you haven't obliterated it entirely?

Styrer
The 'faithful' believe they have evidence. They believe that The Bible (or Koran or Torah or fill in the blank) contains 'evidence'. They believe that (at least some of) the supernatural stories that are in the bible/koran/torah are literally true. (Corpses walking, walking on water, water into wine etc.) They can't grasp the idea that these are myths i.e. fiction. Just because people claim that something happened it doesn't mean that it did. A claim that 500 people saw it does not necessarily mean that 500 people did see it happen.

They then warp other things into 'evidence' for their beliefs. (Ooh, the universe is too complex for me to understand. Ooh, I needed a few quid once and then someone was kind enough to give it to me. Ooh, odd coincidences have happened in my life, the must be for a reason. Ooh, millions believe something, so it must be true)

They really believe they have 'evidence'. The problem is, they don't know evidence from a hole in the ground.

The really ignorant believe what they are told. to believe becuase they are most susceptible to the argument from authority. My dad says this so it must be true. The village elder says...the priest says...the imam says...

In a way, that they believe their faith is based on 'evidence', may be more dangerous than if it were just 'plucked' from the air. One has to show them how their 'evidence' is not evidence at all. Given that in the first instance, they believe a bunch of total bullshit is evidence, this is no easy task.

People are rationalizers. They tend to find reasons to believe what they already believe, not to look for that which questions it. They can be deluded/conned/indoctrinated into believing the 'evidence' for their 'faith' and then reach the wrong conclusion - that their faith is true.

Undoing the damage done by this way of thinking(?)- to even one individual - may take years or even be impossible. To undo the damage done to a whole species, well, you don't often see me proclaiming that the end of religion is nigh.

Steve/Styrer - Given that I'm not known for defending 'faith' or 'religion', whaddya think on my ideas?

Edit: Styrer - are you going to accuse me of being soft on 'faith''?

Other Comments by irate_atheist

259. Comment #191140 by MaxD on June 10, 2008 at 9:32 am

 avatarSeveralspeiciesof,
I thought this too, but that Styer wasn't noticing that there was some truth to the fact that the faithful rarely ever argue from the joys of faith position. They try to marshal (faulty/dishonest/shamefully idiotic-see article above) evidence. This would be good if they actually took the enterprise seriously, but they don't.

Their faith claims seem to be largely about the attributes of god and that said being acts in ways that reward the faithful, that there is a heaven....yada yada, but that they often cite evidence for why they actually believe in a particular god type being at all.

Other Comments by MaxD

260. Comment #191142 by Diacanu on June 10, 2008 at 9:34 am

 avatarRe: post 258.

I gotta admit, I did virtually the same cherry picking when I went through my deism phase.
Fought for that shit like a demon.
But, at least deism has its own built in antivirus, in that it's a path of logic, and enough evidence can jar it loose.
I dunno what it's like to be invested in the whole Jesus/hellfire thing.
It never took with me.
*Shrug*

But yeah, from someone who's tasted a diluted strain of the religion thing, they are cherry picking, they can't deny it.
I've been inside it.
And it's just plain raw stubborn denial that allows them to defend it to the hilt.
I dunno how you break through it, it's a big wall of ego.
Humans despise being wrong.

Other Comments by Diacanu

261. Comment #191148 by FightingFalcon on June 10, 2008 at 9:43 am

 avatarI read for about a minute before wanting to throw my laptop across the room.

What a piece of shit.

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

262. Comment #191150 by Podaar on June 10, 2008 at 9:45 am

 avatarI'm reminded of Sam Harris saying the real problem with Moderates (of any faith) is that they don't really know what it's like to have FULL faith in their own doctrine. That's why they look so surprised when someone flys a plane into a building.

-- Gregg

[edited to clear up stupidness]

Other Comments by Podaar

263. Comment #191152 by sent2null on June 10, 2008 at 9:46 am

 avatarwow...

I knew I was in for a waste of 10 seconds when I got to...

One of the beautiful aspects of self evident truths is that they can be proven on both the simplest and the most complex of levels.


If $hite had a verbal form, that would be it. That whole sentence is such hollow bull that it succeeded in souring my countenance as I clicked down the page angry that I read even a sentence of the tripe. You would think that "writers" of this ilk have absolutely no access to the massive stores of information on the internet.

Especially as it regards, loooooong dead and refuted claims for the existence of a conscious watching deity Like the force, self delusion is strong in so many.

I am done.

Other Comments by sent2null

264. Comment #191153 by MaxD on June 10, 2008 at 9:47 am

 avatarIrate,
I'm neither Steve, nor Stryer,
But I think your post is on point.

Other Comments by MaxD

265. Comment #191154 by severalspeciesof on June 10, 2008 at 9:48 am

 avatarMaxD,

Could it be possible that stryer was responding to the fact that many religious ACT on faith (which is a very dangerous way to act), while you were pointing out the fact that the religious ARGUE through their own concept of evidence, but not faith.
With faith, one cannot argue by it, but can only act by it. That's the dangerous proposition.

Other Comments by severalspeciesof

266. Comment #191155 by bitbutter on June 10, 2008 at 9:52 am

 avatar
The simplest proof (yet one that no atheist has ever been able to counter effectively) is that a universe of this size and magnitude does not somehow build itself


Here's a pretty effective counter: How do you know? (so, do i win anything?)

How many universes have you seen develop? of those, were the ones guided by a divine superpower the most complex/biggest ones? Please share your findings.

Other Comments by bitbutter

267. Comment #191161 by MrPinz on June 10, 2008 at 9:56 am

 avatarHere's the authors e-mail: ypostelnik@gmail.com

Other Comments by MrPinz

268. Comment #191162 by hungarianelephant on June 10, 2008 at 9:57 am

 avatar263. Comment #191150 by Podaar on June 10, 2008 at 9:45 am

Flying a plane into a building is the rational consequence of a (particular) irrational belief system.

Moderates are not rational, by definition. If it were true that Jesus was the son of the creator of the universe, and came to earth for your personal redemption, then the rational thing to do would be to run your entire life around that notion, not just marginalise it to Sunday morning. When pressed, moderates know this. Though of course they have a prepared set of rationalisations.

Maybe this is a good thing.

Where's Bonzai when you need him?

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

269. Comment #191163 by Steve Zara on June 10, 2008 at 9:59 am

 avatarComment #191138 by irate_atheist

Excellent post.

What people confuse, I feel, is "faith", with "hope".

"hope" = I have no evidence, but I really want there to be a God.

"faith" = I have this deep inner feeling that there is a God, and that is evidence

Enough "hope", and you start deluding yourself you have "faith".

But, this still isn't the true "belief without evidence" of the theologists. It is something far worse and more dangerous.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

270. Comment #191168 by Diacanu on June 10, 2008 at 10:08 am

 avatar(Continuing from post 261)

(Browser locked up, needed rebooting, easier to make a sequel, then have people miss an edit after this long)

Now, the need to hang onto these religious ideas in the face of everything, that comes down to ego, but I can't exactly nail down why that's different from the scientific worldview, in that since I've fully adopted it, I don't mind being proven wrong, or if we find new evidence that alters a theory.

Maybe ego really is the factor.

I know that as a deist, I felt like I knew something everyone else didn't, and that I was tapped into the universe because of it.

You get an ego rush like that, of COURSE you'll think the other side is boring, and "soulless", and unenlightened, and drab, and hopeless, and thus fight against it as a worldview.

Christians must have it worse, they think that cosmic high is a PERSONAL force that has things to say to them via their little magic books.

It's like being in Hogwarts, they're so fucking special.

Really hard to let go of that, I guess.
Especially, again, if you see the other side as boring and drab and hopeless.

I think we really need to hammer home that's not only not the case, but the exact opposite.

Science is so much more awsome and transcendant than any of their fairy tales.

I don't know why we can't get that throught to them.

I think it's because of religion co-opting scientific discovery.

I've pointed out the disgusting hypocrisy of this elsewhere.

They were perfectly happy to have bones in their noses, and bang rocks together, and deny the possibility if things like cells and microbes, and then when there was no denying it "oh, how fantastic god is, how complex his creation!".

I think we need to sharpen arguments against this.

Other Comments by Diacanu

271. Comment #191172 by sent2null on June 10, 2008 at 10:12 am

 avatarvertigo25 wrote:

Let's put aside the fact that I've never heard an atheist or scientist claim that the Universe came about randomly from nothing...


I happen to be both so let me be the first. ;) It is a demonstrable fact that some things can indeed come from "nothing". The best example is the zero point energy that is practically seen as the Casimir effect between two plates in *empty space*. The answer comes from realizing that we live in a quantum world, one of probabilities not certainties. The equations that govern particle behavior (to unheard of accuracy)dictate the probable emergence of particle pairs in empty space at zero temperature (absolute zero). Virtual particles they are called, however they can become very real if an event interrupts the annihilation that would normally attend their creation. The problem that people have in understanding the meaning of "nothing" is that the very concept is relative to time and energy because we are embedded in a space time. Thus over sufficiently long or short periods of it the meaning of "nothing" varies. The equations are commutative across energy as long as all the energy of the system is allocated for over any given time of observation. In the case of virtual particle predicted by mathematics, their effects measurable by experimentation, "nothing" depends on when you are doing the observation, pre spontaneous creation? post creation? or post annihilation. The concept of "nothing" is itself transitory. The intrinsic importance of this realization was put home by Steven Hawking when he conjectured his Black Hole radiation theory. It has as a lynch pin the idea of virtual particles undergoing asymmetrical annihilation on either side of a black hole's event horizon as the cause of the eventual dissipation of the black hole.

Another amazing fact, it is believed that the sum total of all energy in the universe is a big fat zero. It is theorized that as the universe expands the existing energy will dissipate to the point that it is on the level of the quantum fluctuations at which point it will be practically "nothing". Us, the Earth , the Carbon, Iron, Oxygen and Nitrogen that make up planets and nebula of the galaxy, the entire universe is nothing more than the remnants of an energy echo sent 13.5 billion years ago in the initial bang. The evolution of the universe is an expression of that energy as it evolves over time, if it is true that the Universe will continue to expand and in fact accelerate with age it will accelerate to a state of "nothing". Over the arch of observation that attended its creation, expansion and evolution and eventual death in a cold whimper it will be conserving energy as over that arc the sum of what was and what was not will still be zero. Incredibly cool isn't it? Recent evidence suggests that our Universe may have been created in a process called Inflation (theorized by Andre Linde in the early 80's) the idea is that our universe is a bubble in an ever roiling multiverse infinitely extended, a white noise of universes being created, evolving and dying forever...not unlike what we see in the zero point energy, an endless roiling of empty space. The beauty of this symmetry of the immensely large and the immensely small is hardly an accident in my view.

So something (virtual particles) can indeed come from "nothing" (empty space) and elicit real effects (Casimir Effect , dissolving black holes) on the Universe. In this, the physics definition of "nothing" is statistically the white noise of the zero point energy, which is as "nothing" as anything can get in space time. When I first learned of this correlation between reality and the equations of quantum mechanics I had one of the most incredible feelings in my life, that the probabilistic equations could give rise to such a prediction (vacuum fluctuations) of the very base nature of space itself was astonishing to me.

Links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_point_energy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_radiation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_fluctuations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commutative_law

Other Comments by sent2null

272. Comment #191175 by Diacanu on June 10, 2008 at 10:19 am

 avatar..son of a bitch, sent2null, your pinky-nail is smarter than me.
8-0

Other Comments by Diacanu

273. Comment #191179 by Steve Zara on June 10, 2008 at 10:26 am

 avatarComment #191172 by sent2null

A wonderful post!

But.. those are still things that happen within our spacetime.

What is truly bizarre are ideas of how our spacetime itself could have arisen from a background that is built of more fundamental units than space and time. I have picked up hints of this work from reading the books of Brian Greene, and there is also the now classic work of Hawking and Hartle.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

274. Comment #191190 by sent2null on June 10, 2008 at 10:57 am

 avatarYes, within space time is an important point to make. The untested ideas of extra dimensions put forward by string theories may throw some interesting twists into the mix but I doubt much would change, energy would simply commute between dimensions and still sum to zero over the properly chosen reference frames. In this case "reference frame" being more than just an Einsteinian "event" (3 space 1 time) but the more inclusive higher dimensional events that may exist. I am awed by the apparent symmetry between energy on large and small scales at least as it would appear if we are to accept inflation (and the idea of an infinite multiverse) as plausible. Many key breakthroughs have been made in physics by observing symmetries and simply filling in the bits theoretically then making predictions that panned out in experiment. The prediction and discovery of the positron by Dirac as well as many later sub atomic particles were done precisely by using theoretical observations from symmetry ...it would be the ultimate coup if we could make such a connection on the scale of eternity (whatever it may be) itself!

I've only read one Greene book (the first) and I don't know a single serious modern science enthusiast that hasn't read Hawking's Brief History of Time at least twice! I am not familiar with Hartle however, what do you recommend? Though I dare say I'd get to reading it this decade if I were to purchase it tomorrow, I am still only on page 77 of The God Delusion!! and I bought the book almost 3 years ago. Busy..busy..busy...

Regards,

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275. Comment #191206 by phil rimmer on June 10, 2008 at 11:31 am

 avatarMax
"If you go looking for God you will find God, best just to go looking."


The original aphorism was the rather theist, "If you go looking for God you will find him". Seek and ye shall find as it were. I choose not to allow the prospect of success to the mono-minded, hence the subtle change-

If you go looking for God, you will find a god. Better to just go looking.

(A little bit of carrot and stick for the spiritually inclined and a suggestion that joining the A-team might actually help them in their quest.)

Other Comments by phil rimmer

276. Comment #191210 by irate_atheist on June 10, 2008 at 11:44 am

 avatar265. Comment #191153 by MaxD -

Oh, Max, I knew you'd agree with me.

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277. Comment #191284 by Count von Count on June 10, 2008 at 1:51 pm

 avatarI built up the stomach to reconsider this article a bit, and found that it reminded me of the following piece of advice from the legendary Jack Handey:

"If you want to be the most popular person in your class, whenever the professor pauses in his lecture, just let out a big snort and say 'How do you figger that!' real loud. Then lean back and sort of smirk."

- Jack Handey

I'm beginning to think that perhaps Yomin Postelnik (the author) heard this quote, and took it seriously!

Other Comments by Count von Count

278. Comment #191298 by Pathfinder on June 10, 2008 at 2:14 pm

Logical proofs... Bible... probability... must exist... incontrovertble mathematical constants....God must exist. Yomin Postelnik contends God must exist because of statistics. Maybe he/she is right.( I think it's "he".) I hear a lot of pseudo-scientific proof from fellow Christians, but I never SEE any. Why?

There's the 747 argument, the fact that all constants are so fine-tuned to make the possibility of random, accidental, chance, springing-into-existence of Life incredibly, impossibly remote, yet we're here, amongst living things, and I see precious little evidence of God apart from my own convictions and visceral response to inexplicable phenomena. Why is that? Free will? Maybe. But i have to say I find the dogmatism of the God-avowers as tiresome as the God-deniers, perhaps even more so.

Yes, I'd like God proved in the lab. " Barely scratches the truth of the Bible... Torah... " Who are we supposed to believe? Should I become a Hasidic Jew, a Muslim, a Bahaiist? Are they all right? When these pseudo-scientific articles plump for ONE over all, then I might take them seriously. Otherwise, no.

Other Comments by Pathfinder

279. Comment #191299 by nrvous on June 10, 2008 at 2:15 pm

 avatarFor some reason 'Logical Proof of the Existence of a Divine Creator...' put me in mind of two things:

1) Douglas Adams' dialog between God and Man ('I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing'...etc.)

2) This scene from The LEague of Gentlemen, in which two door-to-door evangelicals try to scare someone into accepting Jesus by showing her actual 'photographs' of hell.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9dsEcHAoyb4

Other Comments by nrvous

280. Comment #191300 by jenlaferriere on June 10, 2008 at 2:16 pm

 avatarI just hate reading creationists thinking they are speaking cohenrently and intellegently when they don't even understand what they are trying to disprove. So many "arguments" used when trying to discredit and disprove the reason and logic of evolution are a complete misunderstanding of what evolution really is.

Also, since when do atheists believe that the planets formed out of nothing... There was a process and we understand that process, because as atheists, we pride ourselve on knowledge, logic and critical thought. *they should try that sometime* Also, the statement that human missing an argument, makes no sense.... evolution mean that we will have developped everything we need for life.

*this is my first post... couldn't help commenting on this one!

Other Comments by jenlaferriere

281. Comment #191308 by Count von Count on June 10, 2008 at 2:29 pm

 avatarThank you, sent2null, for an excellent and exciting post! I took some quantum physics as an undergrad (I'm currently a PhD student in math), but I never realized the connection between virtual particles and the old "something from nothing" argument.

I had a similar feeling to the one you describe when you realized the connection between reality and the equations of quantum mechanics. It was a few years ago when I read an article about how the universe could be something like a vacuum fluctuation. Suddenly the puzzle seemed to just...fit together.

sent2null-

Since you are a scientist (a physicist, I'm guessing?) and already an atheist, I would suggest putting down "The God Delusion" for awhile and picking up "The Selfish Gene." You might get another "most incredible feeling," as I did, around chapter 3 or 4. It truly is a mind expanding book.

Diacanu-

Clearly sent2null has a very keen acumen about these things, but you deserve some credit too. ;) These things are certainly within your grasp, and mine, to understand. Awe should be an invitation to understand, not an end of a road. =)

jenlaferriere-

Welcome!

Other Comments by Count von Count

282. Comment #191315 by thewhitepearl on June 10, 2008 at 2:40 pm

 avatarLaurie,

EXCELLENT! I'm thrilled to hear you say that. I have to admit to you guys, (Al don't be disappointed) but I'm still working on my response. I have to take it a little bit at a time, it really did give me a headache...

I'm analyzing his article literally line by line. rying to rip him a new one. So that he will never write obscenity like this again without thinking twice about it. Perhaps I'll send it in to the CFP...

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

283. Comment #191319 by nrvous on June 10, 2008 at 2:53 pm

 avatarIt seems on the one hand to be a huge waste of time, but on the other hand this is exactly the kind of article that deserves a cool-headed, line-by-line refutation. Go to it, whitepearl! (And others...)

Other Comments by nrvous

284. Comment #191325 by mordacious1 on June 10, 2008 at 3:09 pm

Ahem...I actually found this article quite useful (read on before sticking a trident in me).

I had lunch with an xian today, who always gives me the blah blah blah crap that they do. So I printed this article and when he started up, I handed it to him and said: "All your arguments are contained in here". He read it and shut up.

We had a peaceful lunch for a change.

Other Comments by mordacious1

285. Comment #191351 by Tawn on June 10, 2008 at 4:31 pm

"an illogical fallacy"

Isn't that a double negative?



It seems no matter how we argue, we never gain ground with some people..

Other Comments by Tawn

286. Comment #191352 by skeptic griggsy on June 10, 2008 at 4:33 pm

 avatarJust another nut! Look at haughty John L. Haught who assails us naturalists for not conceding that there are other venues other than the natural when he has not shown that to be the case. What temerity!
These are bunglers who so fault us for not conceding to their rubbish!

Other Comments by skeptic griggsy

287. Comment #191355 by secondsoprano on June 10, 2008 at 4:44 pm

Is this srsly the best they can do? How very disappointing.

Other Comments by secondsoprano

288. Comment #191361 by sent2null on June 10, 2008 at 5:04 pm

 avatarCount von Count,

thanks for the compliment..it means all the more that you are the PHD candidate in math and not I. Though I came close to getting a degree in physics I instead opted for the more immediately practical (by virtue of its lucrative nature for those of less than brilliant ability in theoretical physics) Electrical Engineering! Okay, my fellow Engineers may want to hoist me to a mast for that statement but I do respect the work of the theoreticians to such a degree as to envy their powers of concentration on these matters. My eyes glaze over after about 30 minutes of staring at wave equations or playing with bra's and ket's in quantum mechanics (how I passed both courses in it is still amazing to me even today 10 years on from the event) My "thing" is engineering, that I get and can do without fatigue for hours on end. Advanced Physics I like to get an understanding of what is going on from the birds eye view and that is good enough for me, the rigors of the details exceed my skill and patience.

What is your concentration for your Phd degree ? it has been a while since I investigated the frontiers of mathematics research.

Other Comments by sent2null

289. Comment #191388 by fizhburn on June 10, 2008 at 7:23 pm

 avatarAlthough it's the real deal, I'm still calling Poe's Law on this drivel.

Edit: sent2null you have inspired me to investigate the (conceptual---my maths proficiency is not up to cosmology snuff) details of current thinking on both vacuum energy and bubble dimensions. Thanks!

Other Comments by fizhburn

290. Comment #191411 by Count von Count on June 10, 2008 at 10:08 pm

 avatarsent2null-

That's great that you are in EE! There seems to be something interesting in the news about work in your subject going on almost every day now. I had a tough time with "bra and ket" notation as well. However, we shouldn't feel too bad about this--as it turns out, Dirac never had a fully rigorous definition of bras and kets. In recent years, people working in functional analysis have come up with some rigorous ad-hoc justifications, but it is not clear that the new definitions are the best fit for what physicists "mean" when they use bras and kets. The situation is analogous to another of Dirac's little gems, namely the Dirac delta 'function,' which is not really a function but a distribution, although the theory of distributions came about 20 or 30 years after the delta function.

I work on the Navier-Stokes equations which govern the way air and fluids flow. Something you mentioned in an earlier post led me to think about a phenomenon in turbulence called an "energy cascade." The idea is that large eddies feed their energy into smaller eddies which in turn feed into even smaller eddies an so on. (You can see this easily by pouring a bit of milk into your coffee, try it, and watch!) The structures start simple and get very complex. It reminded me of the position often stated by Ricard Dawkins that complexity is the end result of simple processes.

What are you working on?

(By the way, for other readers, if you didn't understand something above, don't think it's beyond you! I didn't understand it once either. You are certainly smart enough to understand it; it just takes a bit of learning the vocabulary and concepts, surely within your power. Let's get rid of the idea that science is only accessible to the ultra-smart!)

Other Comments by Count von Count

291. Comment #191415 by irate_atheist on June 10, 2008 at 11:00 pm

 avatarWhy, when I read the title of this, did I think it contained the same intellectual content as, say: Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan?

Other Comments by irate_atheist

292. Comment #191416 by delusionofthespecies on June 10, 2008 at 11:03 pm

I thought everyone would be interested that I recieved a response from Yomin Postelnik regarding an email I sent him in response to his editorial.

His was a blanket response (Dear Sir or Madam) that addressed none of the discussion points I made. I was neither long winded nor did I reference Carl Sagan. I referenced personal opinion, Dr. Sharon Moalem and Dr. Jerry Coyne.

Nor did I call him an idiot. I simply pointed out that his credentials didn't qualify him to call atheism illogical.

Here is his response for those interested:

"Dear Sir or Madam,

I arrived back tonight to a plethora of emails with regard to the column. All of the ones stemming from proponents of atheism were at least the very least extremely rude, usually a sign of not having facts on one side. Others addressed some of the points and while many spun the meaning of some of the text, others did not. However, none addressed the central point of the column, that even if one were to accept evolution, an orderly solar system and a life bastion such as earth do not create themselves and the argument that they did so over time makes it more ludicrous than saying it happened at once. This cannot be countered by pointing to the difference between organic and non-organic beings, as when you boil down to it, organic beings are exponentially more complex and the evolutionist presupposes that they originated, in their first (not primal, but rather their origin) as inanimate forms themselves.

But that is not the point of what I'm writing you.

I would simply ike to remind you that while you may have a question with regard to some issues, it doesn't mean that there are no answers to your contentions. Indeed, after reviewing each and every email I have yet to find a question that does not have an answer, including the points countering the cosmological theory, all of which incorrectly assumed that the Creator is physical, as opposed to the origin of physicality (and, btw, of spirituality). That is a discussion that would involve much theology, and I'm happy to have it, but it will be separate from this response.

Likewise, your citations of Sagan have answers and have been thought out and well considered. As such, the rants that many of you sent, rants that started something like "You, idiot, don are factually wrong as I was well aware of the premises that your side puts forward on the issues. Some of these are dealt with below.

Writing longwinded accusations, peppered with insults, are hardly the hallmarks of logic. In fact, such rigid and dogmatic allegiance to your side is hardly a way to approach logical analysis of any subject and is indicative of an extreme narrow mindedness. I understand the emotional issues with opening yourself up to the possibility of a Creator, but pursuit of the truth should be paramount. I can also assure you, coming from the other side of this, that such fears aren't grounded.

To the few of you who could do no more than write a few baseless insults. One does not do this unless the subject touched a nerve and the argument appears truthful enough to bother them.

Lastly, yes, I disagree with you. However, what I did not do is go onto your blogs, etc. and ask that you be stopped from saying your piece. Many of you haven't done this to me either, but all of you have been condescending while trumpeting a narrow minded point of view as fact.

Below is a debate I had recently with two very eloquent proponents of your side. It should start as an answer to some of the questions some of you put forward.

Sincerely,

Yomin Postelnik"

End transmission.

_____________________________________


He also included emails that he rec'd in response to his editorial in the email. I won't include them here as this is my first post to this forum and I don't want to overstay my welcome.

Thanks!

Delusion of the Species

Other Comments by delusionofthespecies

293. Comment #191417 by MaxD on June 10, 2008 at 11:11 pm

 avatardelusionofthespecies,
Thanks for posting this idiot's response.

Other Comments by MaxD

294. Comment #191418 by irate_atheist on June 10, 2008 at 11:15 pm

 avatar293. Comment #191416 by delusionofthespecies -

Many thanks for posting this 'reply'. I'll just make a couple of comments before going to have breakfast/feed the cat/ go to work etc.
...all of which incorrectly assumed that the Creator is physical,...
What? As opposed to just plain non-existent?
That is a discussion that would involve much theology...
Really? Care to discuss my theory of pink unicorns as well, would you?
To the few of you who could do no more than write a few baseless insults.
Not baseless at all. We have your own writings to base them on!

Edit: Yomin Postelnik -If you're reading this blog, lets see if you can get pass these lemmata to 'prove' your god exists*:

Lemma 1: The Universe was created
Lemma 2: The creator of the universe is an omnipotent, omniscient being
Lemma 3: This being, having created the universe continues to play a part in the development of the universe and all that is in it
Lemma 4: This being is specifically the deity of a particular sect of people living in one small section of one small planet circling around one particular star out of 1011 others in one galaxy out of 1.5*1011 others.
Lemma 5: All of this is documented in a book written approximately 2000 years ago

All the lemmas need to be demonstrated in turn. Once this has been done then you may actually have some claim to the truth of your religion.

* Credit to epeeist for supplying this originally.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

295. Comment #191424 by delusionofthespecies on June 10, 2008 at 11:52 pm

Thanks irate_atheist and MaxD for the quick responses.

Oddly enough, Yomin responded immediately to an email of mine I sent just minutes ago. I'm inching toward sleep and can't process it tonight. It's wrought with great delusion. I wish I had more energy to respond tonight. Keep in mind, most of the response was cut and pasted from responses he must have made to other antagonists. I don't know how to distinguish his cut and pasted remarks on this forum. It's rife with poor logic similar to his initial editorial. Here's what he said (Don't you love that he calls me "honorable?).

"Honorable Sir,

Please understand that I cannot answer every email individually. However, I will answer your points.

a) Credentials matter when applying for a position, not with regard to whether an argument or point of view is sound.

b) Here was my point about the body - No one is saying that I know the reason for every aspect of it. My point is that it's an extremely complex figure that relies on literally billions of interdependent workings to sustain its existence. My point was that were it to have a single extra orifice or to be missing any one of its myriad vital parts, that it could not continue to live. This points to an intelligent Creator.

c) The fossil record lacks transitional fossils. I would encourage you to look at the points mentioned in the debate. Specifically:

. Darwin understood that such fossils were needed to support his entire hypothesis. He felt, however, that such fossils would surely appear over time. But while we've uncovered so many fossils in the last hundred years that we have a true overabundance of them, no conclusive transitional fossils have ever turned up.

Harvard Prof. Steven J. Gould, a man I had a significant amount of personal admiration for despite any scientific differences, had to admit, quote, "the extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology."

The error of the evolutionists can be seen by their study is of the Archaeopteryx, a fossil that had feathers and scales, that evolutionists incorrectly cite as a transitional form. It has fully developed feathers and fully developed scales. This doesn't prove transition at all.

Nothing points to any transformation from scale to feather, like a half-scale for example. The same is true of the oft-mis-cited duck-billed platypus. It has features that are reptilian and some mammalian, but none that show a transition from one to the other. Its reptilian, mammalian and other characteristics are each fully formed and do not show any transition of one to the other. In fact, all of its characteristics are perfectly suited to its unique climate. Furthermore, there's no difference between modern day platypuses and those found in fossils.

The same is true of the hominids. Of the 12 hominids cited by evolutionists, 9 have been documented to be extinct species of ape/monkey with no human characteristics at all. The other 3 are modern day humans with no animal characteristics. So a true half human half ape fossil has never been found. This would be needed to prove gradual evolution. Darwin knew that and may well have given up belief in his theory if he had seen the amount of fossils we've dug up without finding a single conclusive one.

d) The interpretation of hell, according to those who compiled the first commentaries on the Bible, was that while it's severe, it is temporary, transitional and cleansing in nature.

Hope this ads some clarity to my statements. Thank you and if you'd like to continue this discussion feel free,

Yomin Postelnik
IRPW
Business Funding Options
Development and Marketing Solutions
Tel: (954) 946-4442
Fax: (484) 902-4442
ypostelnik@insidersreview.org
www.insidersreview.org

===================

End response.

Other Comments by delusionofthespecies

296. Comment #191430 by Carole on June 11, 2008 at 12:32 am

I posted a (waspish, but polite) comment on his website here
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=28865181&postID=5318482483331515627&page=1
which said he should firstly read some science books, think about it all, form some valid opinions and THEN write articles.

He removed it.
And all the others, except one.

What a pity he's not popping in here for a quick chat.

Other Comments by Carole

297. Comment #191436 by ypostelnik on June 11, 2008 at 1:05 am

Here's a follow up for anyone who truly cares about logic and facts. I won't have much time to post questions but feel free to email me and I'll set a time to speak.

Dear Sir or Madam,



I arrived back tonight to a plethora of emails with regard to the column. All of the ones stemming from proponents of atheism were at least the very least extremely rude, usually a sign of not having facts on one's side. Others addressed some of the points and while many spun the meaning of some of the text, others did not. However, none addressed the central point of the column, that even if one were to accept evolution, an orderly solar system and a life bastion such as earth do not create themselves and the argument that they did so over time makes it more ludicrous than saying it happened at once. This cannot be countered by pointing to the difference between organic and non-organic beings, as when you boil down to it, organic beings are exponentially more complex and the evolutionist presupposes that they originated, in their first (not primal, but rather their origin) as inanimate forms themselves.



But that is not the point of what I'm writing you.



I would simply like to remind you that while you may have a question with regard to some issues, it doesn't mean that there are no answers to your contentions. Indeed, after reviewing each and every email I have yet to find a question that does not have an answer, including the points countering the cosmological theory, all of which incorrectly assumed that the Creator is physical, as opposed to the origin of physicality (and, btw, of spirituality). That is a discussion that would involve much theology, and I'm happy to have it, but it will be separate from this response.



Likewise, your citations of Sagan have answers and have been thought out and well considered. As such, the rants that many of you sent, rants that started something like "You, idiot, don't even know…." are factually wrong as I was well aware of the premises that your side puts forward on the issues. Some of these are dealt with below.



Writing longwinded accusations, peppered with insults, are hardly the hallmarks of logic. In fact, such rigid and dogmatic allegiance to your side is hardly a way to approach logical analysis of any subject and is indicative of an extreme narrow mindedness. I understand the emotional issues with opening yourself up to the possibility of a Creator, but pursuit of the truth should be paramount. I can also assure you, coming from the other side of this, that such fears aren't grounded.



To the few of you who could do no more than write a few baseless insults. One does not do this unless the subject touched a nerve and the argument appears truthful enough to bother them.



Lastly, yes, I disagree with you. However, what I did not do is go onto your blogs, etc. and ask that you be stopped from saying your piece. Many of you haven't done this to me either, but all of you have been condescending while trumpeting a narrow minded point of view as fact.



Below is a debate I had recently with two very eloquent proponents of your side. It should start as an answer to some of the questions some of you put forward.



Sincerely,



Yomin Postelnik



TEXT OF DEBATE:
Yomin,
Thanks for the link to Gateway Pundit. And thanks for clarifying your debate offer.
So, let's talk about an "intelligent creator." I'll abbreviate it "IC" to make typing easier. Do you base your belief in an IC on the complexity of life?
I accept the evolutionist explanation for biological diversity, i.e., speciation, however, evolution has nothing to say about the origin of life on this planet. So I need to know whether you are limiting the discussion to the origin of all life on earth, or whether you wish to include the diversity of species which we observe in our discussion.
I accept the evolutionist explanation for several reasons. One is the fossil record. Two is the distribution of genes in animal DNA. (BTW, did you see the recent articles about the sequencing of the platypus genome? It looks to me like the platypus is a living "transitional" species.)
pb
Comment by Paul B*** " May 28, 2008 @ 10:27 am

Great!
Paul,
We can talk about evolution as well. But the main point is the existence of an intelligent Creator. Specification is just one aspect, but it's a leading one. If we say that order formed out of a primordial pool, without intelligent guidance, we're saying that randomness begot intricate specificity, to the tune of billions upon billions of species, the existence of many being are interdependent. The difference between sudden random creation and evolved devolpment, in essence, would be whether a full set of Encyclopedia Britannicas was formed suddenly with the accidental spill of one massive ink blot or whether spilled ink first started out as dots, then gradually formed as letters and then words, paragraphs, etc. all without intelligent guidance. The latter possibility is even more illogical than the first. And it would be far, far easier for such an encyclopedia set to come about than a universe in which numerous stars and planets must be aligned enough so as not to collide, in which species need food, water, air, sunshine and other elements to survive and just happen to have all of them (if life adapts to the conditions that are prevalent it would have never been able to get off the ground, and many in cold parts could survive on merely snow, etc. - more on that later if you want), and in which each species has the exact organs and cavities that are necessary for life, with even one missing, added or in the wrong place making life unsustainable.
Also, please realize that despite Austin's worry of multiple Yomins (he denies the existence of One Creator but believes in many Yomins and maybe many Austins), it may take 24 hrs, sometimes 48 between responses. Those are the constraints of a kid and business, and are worth it.
By the way, the platypus genome is similar similar to other so-called "transitional" fossil, the Archaeopteryx. That one had fully developed feathers and nothing transitional in nature. A transitional fossil would have half scales and half feathers, etc. What we have instead is a species that's not uniquely mammal or amphibian, but it's not transitional.
By the way, feel free to email me for the global warming links. The 1998 study got a lot of coverage on the BBC in 2006 and wasn't mentioned again in the media for another year, but there are many links to it. That's just the tip of the iceberg (lousy pun intended).
Comment by Yomin Postelnik " May 28, 2008 @ 11:12 am

Yomin,
I think your idea of an IC is based on reasoning (correct me if I'm wrong): life is so fantastically complex, an IC is the only thing we know of that could have caused it. That's a reason, but I don't accept it as fact.
I do not think that life was caused by an intelligent creator. I have seen no evidence to support that idea so I have no good reason to believe it. I haven't seen good evidence for other explanations either. I think the origin of life is a mystery, which may be solved in the future. In the meantime, I am content to let it remain a mystery.
You've probably heard this before but I'll repeat it anyway. If life on earth was created by some being, what caused the creator? If that is a mystery, then a creator being is unnecessary. You are just moving the mystery "back" one level. If you think the creator always existed, I have to ask: how do you come by this knowledge? As far as I can tell, there is no way to know the nature of such a creator.
pb
Comment by Paul B*** " May 28, 2008 @ 12:04 pm

Hi Paul,
I agree with you that the Creator can't be physical and to my knowledge no religion believes in a physical Creator, rather, one that is higher than physicality. All I'm saying is that physicality itself points to the fact that there is an Intelligent Creator, above the physical realm. What that Creator is remains a partial mystery, in as much as we only understand the physical and have an idea of the spiritual and the Creator needs to be higher than both (as physicality cannot emanate from spirituality - more on that later). But one thing is clear. The only way that an orderly universe with some many complex creatures, inter-reliant on each other, can exist is through the act of a conscious Creator. A plane can't build itself, and if it did so piece by piece that would be even more fantastic, much less a whole universe. To look for the answers as to more about this Creator, we need to analyze which texts have a logical source and tradition, and make sense. That's a different subject, but one we should discuss. But that can only be looked at after analyzing the Universe and recognizing that such a vast physicality mandates a conscious Creator.
Comment by Yomin Postelnik " May 28, 2008 @ 5:33 pm

Hi Yomin,

I think that it's a bit premature to talk about the whole universe. The only life we have knowledge about is based on earth, so I will address that.
Yes, life is unimaginably complex. However, I think that scientists, such as biologists and paleontologists, have provided us with reasonable answers to the complexity of life on earth with the the law of evolution. That law also provides good reasons for the facts that lifeforms on earth are highly adapted to their environments and are interdependent with each other. Because those reasons are based on verifiable evidence, I prefer them to those based on an Intelligent Creator.

As to how life originated on earth, it's possible that it's the result of intelligent creation, but IC does not exhaust the possibilities. So, I need a good reason to prefer the IC solution to any of the others. If I said that life came about accidentally, by a fortuitous combination of natural events, you would rightly want me to give you a reason that made sense to you.
Furthermore, if the complexity of life requires an explanation for its origin, I think that an IC would also require an explanation for its origin. The IC you refer to must be complex because you said that it transcends both the physical AND the spiritual.
Paul
Comment by Paul B*** " May 28,