Unlike Others, U.S. Defends Freedom to Offend in Speech
52. Comment #192190 by aegis on June 12, 2008 at 2:30 pm
"Mr. Lewis wrote that there was "genuinely dangerous" speech that did not meet the imminence requirement."53. Comment #192192 by Barry Pearson on June 12, 2008 at 2:31 pm
29A Meaning of "religious hatred":This is all about "intent to stir up religious hatred".
"In this Part "religious hatred" means hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief".
29B Use of words or behaviour or display of written material:
"A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred."
29C Publishing or distributing written material:
"A person who publishes or distributes written material which is threatening is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred".
29D Public performance of play:
"If a public performance of a play is given which involves the use of threatening words or behaviour, any person who presents or directs the performance is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred".
29E Distributing, showing or playing a recording:
"A person who distributes, or shows or plays, a recording of visual images or sounds which are threatening is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred".
29F Broadcasting or including programme in programme service:
"If a programme involving threatening visual images or sounds is included in a programme service, each of the persons mentioned in subsection (2) is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred".
29G Possession of inflammatory material:
"A person who has in his possession written material which is threatening, or a recording of visual images or sounds which are threatening .... is guilty of an offence if he intends religious hatred to be stirred up thereby".
29J Protection of freedom of expression:I love that sentence!
"Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system".
54. Comment #192195 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 2:33 pm
althey should be allowed to protect themselves in a reasonable wayThat's the key issue: what is reasonable. If no-one had guns, would you having one be reasonable? Well, maybe, if you were a 7 stone female and a 15 stone male had just broken into your home. But would you really need an Uzi?
London probably has a well staffed police department,I feel like you have a quaint 'lil' ol' England' picture of London. We don't. A perennial vote winner is to promise more 'bobbies on the beat'. We never get them. Our fuck-arsed government (which I voted for) has come up with the inspired idea of letting untrained members of the public pretend to be police officers by giving them a uniform and calling them 'Community Support Officers'. They are basically jumped-up traffic wardens, with no greater arrest powers than me, but they give the appearance of us having a police presence.
55. Comment #192196 by Eric Blair on June 12, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Let's not take this as the "Canadian view." The tribunal hasn't made its ruling yet and, whatever it concludes, this case will likely go to a "real" court, where the betting is the "freedom to offend" will be ultimately supported. And I think most Canadians would be OK with this … not so if the gavel falls on the side of the aggrieved Muslims.56. Comment #192197 by mordacious1 on June 12, 2008 at 2:34 pm
The only Ammendment to Constitution that I couldn't have put up with, was the 18th. The rest are pretty damn good. As much as people here, like al and falcon, like the Bill of Rights (so do I), my favorite has to be the 14th. This Ammendment has been used to apply the Bill of Rights to the states. It is only recently that we've actually had freedom of speech, Warren Court I believe.57. Comment #192198 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 2:35 pm
58. Comment #192200 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 2:38 pm
al - Don't let one European's crass generalisation based on what they have seen on TV, cause you to respond in similar fashion.59. Comment #192202 by mordacious1 on June 12, 2008 at 2:40 pm
I hope this get rid of these HRC's for good. They've really become a Frankenstein's monster.60. Comment #192205 by Vinelectric on June 12, 2008 at 2:45 pm
61. Comment #192206 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 2:45 pm
62. Comment #192207 by 7Fred7 on June 12, 2008 at 2:45 pm
With all the flack that the US has been taking in recent times, it's a pleasure to see, once again, that its laws are based on rock solid good sense. I've been out of the UK for many years. When I left there was a lot of hoo-haa about something called political correctness. I'm told that has now decended to unprecedented extremes. By all means let societies be bound by law, but never gagged. Freedom of speech, by definition, MUST include the right to offend. Destructive behaviour cannot be tolerated, but the free expression of opinions and ideas is essential.63. Comment #192210 by AutodaFe on June 12, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Oh please, not a Europe versus America slanging match.64. Comment #192213 by mordacious1 on June 12, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Vinelectric65. Comment #192214 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 12, 2008 at 2:53 pm
I don't believe I need to explain my staunchly pro-American stance any further. The defence rests.Americans are far more indiviualistic than Europeans, Europeans tend to look down there nose at Americans, until some thug dictator over runs their country at which point they get very happy at the sight of American flags. Twice American fat lazy losers have come to Europe to trounce some evil ass holes. You're welcome
66. Comment #192215 by kaiserkriss on June 12, 2008 at 2:54 pm
67. Comment #192217 by 7Fred7 on June 12, 2008 at 2:55 pm
63. Comment #192210 by AutodaFeOh please, not a Europe versus America slanging match.
68. Comment #192221 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 2:58 pm
69. Comment #192224 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 2:59 pm
alI am not being crass, but honest.You are not being crass, but you are making generalisations, and you are better than that. Consider:
that was the only reason he doesn't salute a Fuhrer right nowHe of course has also the Russians to thank. And in a smaller measure, the British Army. I don't think you would find many British having anything but the utmost appreciation for the role of the US in WWII, regardless of when they entered. Of course neither you nor I actually fought in that war, so don't really have any pride to take from the situation (Doug Stanhope has a great skit about that)
Europe is a great place, America could learn a lot from Europe..Every culture can learn from every other culture. Well, except North Korea, Burma and Congo...
Thousands of Americans died at Normandy, Anzio, Arden, and numerous other places, defending their common allies in freedom. Now look what these people say, rather impressive, it takes an exceptional ignorance of history combined with an exceptional large ego.We should always salute individuals, of whatever birthplace, who have given everything to protect and support others.
European rifle dropperEvery coutry has its cowards and its great men. The US as much as Europe.
70. Comment #192227 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Honestly, why don't they just import the Mutaween and be done with it? Then we could at least rise up with a clear conscience
71. Comment #192234 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 3:15 pm
72. Comment #192238 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 3:17 pm
alYes the Russian kicked some serious ass, no doubtThey lost 23 million in the war. That number still staggers me when I think about it.
73. Comment #192240 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 3:18 pm
74. Comment #192244 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 12, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Al, I'm just curious, but what the heck were you doing in that hellhole?75. Comment #192246 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 3:25 pm
All I'm saying is if you can prove someone knew that he was lying, and did it intentionally to hurt a group of people, this should be grounds for legal action by members of that group hurt.
Having been to Iceland I know what you mean, but Suffolk is hardly representative of the UK. We do have London, Manchester, Bradford. Every bit as mixed as parts of America. I wouldn't pick a Pennsylvanian amish community as representative of the US.
That is an interesting point. Of course the war was 60 years ago, and guess what? Our younger generation seem increasingly violent (though that may be due to the natural inclination to view current times as worse than past times)
76. Comment #192247 by AutodaFe on June 12, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Al-rawandi77. Comment #192252 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 3:29 pm
I am well aware of the French assistance provided to America. But I get sick of Europeans acting like Americans are accurately represented on "Jerry Spriner". And I notice the accuser, once called on his foolishness, has scurried off. He (alvorin) is also a socialist, of the "Cuba isn't a socialist country" variety.
78. Comment #192253 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 3:30 pm
79. Comment #192265 by Lucas on June 12, 2008 at 3:43 pm
80. Comment #192268 by Goldy on June 12, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Believe me, the seemingly constant insinuations on this board of American backwardness drive me insane. I think at least 50% of my posts here are in defense of America and trying to explain that we really aren't run by evangelical psychos. That's not what I thought I'd be doing when I first joined this site.
81. Comment #192279 by Naturalist1 on June 12, 2008 at 4:27 pm
82. Comment #192290 by Ian H Spedding FCD on June 12, 2008 at 5:26 pm
As another ex-pat Brit, I think it's scandalous that US citizens have had basic rights guaranteed in law since 1787 while Her Majesty's subjects had to wait until the 1990s to get anything remotely equivalent. This is the country that prides itself on being the mother of parliaments.83. Comment #192294 by alovrin on June 12, 2008 at 5:43 pm
And I notice the accuser, once called on his foolishness, has scurried off. He (alvorin) is also a socialist, of the "Cuba isn't a socialist country" variety.
84. Comment #192297 by Tropical Penguin on June 12, 2008 at 5:50 pm
My first post!85. Comment #192299 by trevok on June 12, 2008 at 6:04 pm
The so called "human rights" tribunals in the Canadian provinces are an absolute joke. Basically they exist to dole out special privileges to religious groups. In past rulings they've forced a gym to frost their windows because Orthodox Jews were walking by and seeing women working out was offensive, they've ruled that Sikh kids should be allowed to carry their kirpans to school, despite the fact any similar type of item carried by a non-Sikh would be immediate grounds for suspension, etc. etc.86. Comment #192303 by Opisthokont on June 12, 2008 at 6:08 pm
No-one should ever suffer legal consequences for publishing truth. Period. Any exception to that is a hideous miscarriage of justice.87. Comment #192305 by Goldy on June 12, 2008 at 6:12 pm
88. Comment #192323 by d0ntp4nic on June 12, 2008 at 7:08 pm
What happened to the time tested method of dealing with other people saying things you don't want to hear? Putting your fingers in your ears and humming loudly!89. Comment #192341 by black wolf on June 12, 2008 at 7:49 pm
90. Comment #192355 by asupcb on June 12, 2008 at 8:47 pm
I personally am not even a big fan of libel and slander laws as they tend to be abused, IMO, and create a situation in which people assume that if someone really is lying about someone then they will get sued and if they don't then there must have been some truth to the accusations despite the fact that most libel/slander cases are lost and simply cost large sums of money to lawyers (not that there is anything wrong with being a lawyer, mostly;). Such laws don't really help protect against libel or slander as the definition of being "in the public eye" keeps expanding here anyway, especially with the advent of the growing number of bloggers. Without those laws people would just assume the person making false and/or inflammatory accusations was just lying, exaggerating, or seeking their 15 minutes of fame like a significant minority of Americans try to do. Most people I know have a pretty thick skin and you could still sue for fraud which is basically what libel and slander are. For better or worse you can sue for almost any reason in the US.91. Comment #192358 by The Schuermannator on June 12, 2008 at 9:03 pm
92. Comment #192359 by Goldy on June 12, 2008 at 9:17 pm
I think you are failing to recognize that outlawing guns in America will only leave guns in the hands of those who shouldn't have them in the first place
93. Comment #192363 by prettygoodformonkeys on June 12, 2008 at 9:45 pm
That speech should be part of the school curriculum and then prettygoodformonkeys wouldn't say such silly things.PGFM
"The Holocaust happened. Inciting people to believe other than the historical truth is illegal because it incites people to act on lies"It is illegal in Canada, I never said it was right. The second part of my post just shows the hypocrisy of the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal.
94. Comment #192376 by BeyondBelief on June 12, 2008 at 10:43 pm
95. Comment #192378 by Szkeptik on June 12, 2008 at 11:10 pm
"But even Mr. Lewis, a liberal, wrote in his book that he was inclined to relax some of the most stringent First Amendment protections "in an age when words have inspired acts of mass murder and terrorism." In particular, he called for a re-examination of the Supreme Court's insistence that there is only one justification for making incitement a criminal offense: the likelihood of imminent violence."96. Comment #192393 by Peacebeuponme on June 13, 2008 at 1:25 am
PGFMWhat part of "embarrassed about this law" was confusing?I've just re-read your post, and I must be having a mental block or something, because I still can't see which way it is turning!
97. Comment #192397 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 13, 2008 at 1:40 am
BeyondBelief, in response to:Is it just me, or is there a complete lack of discussion in this article as to whether or not the content of Steyn's article is hate speech.
98. Comment #192406 by DamnDirtyApe on June 13, 2008 at 2:32 am
99. Comment #192415 by mordacious1 on June 13, 2008 at 2:58 am
Whether of not Steyn's article is hate speech was hashed out in another thread on this topic, that's why it was mainly skipped here. This article is titled, "Unlike Others, U.S. Defends Freedom to Offend in Speech". Most posts here are on this topic. Do people have the right not to be offended? In America, no. Elsewhere, it seems like it.100. Comment #192416 by epeeist on June 13, 2008 at 3:01 am
and figured the French army would actually fight back.You need to look at the numbers killed in WWII. France lost 217,600 military personnel and 267,000 civilians, 1.35% of their population. Compare that to the figures that the States lost in WWII, some 130,000 in the European theatre and 1,700 civilians, some 0.32% of the population.
51. Comment #192183 by JLD Calgary on June 12, 2008 at 2:26 pm
I saw a great hour long interview with the "three sock puppets" (the three individuals who are the model Islam spokespersons) and the fellow who wrote the article (probably through this site) debating at the end.At no point did they debate whether the article points where true or not, just that it hurt their feelings that it was being said, and frankly, I've read the piece, it's controversial for sure, but doesn't incite any sort of hatred or violence.
I'm going to be making quite the scene here in Calgary AB if they go through with this horrible misuse of the Human Rights tribunal.
And didn't you just love how the Ontario Human Right's dismissed it, yet still released a non-legally binding verdict statement without even looking at all the facts and going through the process? They should be tarred for that horrible showing of un-professionalism and disgraceful conduct. One should wonder how these people came to be in such a position.
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