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Thursday, June 12, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Unlike Others, U.S. Defends Freedom to Offend in Speech

by NY Times

Thanks to Wesley Scott for the link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/us/12hate.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Unlike Others, U.S. Defends Freedom to Offend in Speech


The British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal will soon rule on whether the cover story of the October 23, 2006, issue of Maclean's magazine violated a provincial hate speech law.



VANCOUVER, British Columbia — A couple of years ago, a Canadian magazine published an article arguing that the rise of Islam threatened Western values. The article's tone was mocking and biting, but it said nothing that conservative magazines and blogs in the United States do not say every day without fear of legal reprisal.

Things are different here. The magazine is on trial.

Two members of the Canadian Islamic Congress say the magazine, Maclean's, Canada's leading newsweekly, violated a provincial hate speech law by stirring up hatred against Muslims. They say the magazine should be forbidden from saying similar things, forced to publish a rebuttal and made to compensate Muslims for injuring their "dignity, feelings and self-respect."

The British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal, which held five days of hearings on those questions here last week, will soon rule on whether Maclean's violated the law. As spectators lined up for the afternoon session last week, an argument broke out.

"It's hate speech!" yelled one man.

"It's free speech!" yelled another.

In the United States, that debate has been settled. Under the First Amendment, newspapers and magazines can say what they like about minorities and religions — even false, provocative or hateful things — without legal consequence.

The Maclean's article, "The Future Belongs to Islam," was an excerpt from a book by Mark Steyn called "America Alone" (Regnery, 2006). The title was fitting: The United States, in its treatment of hate speech, as in so many other areas of the law, takes a distinctive legal path.

"In much of the developed world, one uses racial epithets at one's legal peril, one displays Nazi regalia and the other trappings of ethnic hatred at significant legal risk, and one urges discrimination against religious minorities under threat of fine or imprisonment," Frederick Schauer, a professor at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, wrote in a recent essay called "The Exceptional First Amendment."

"But in the United States," Professor Schauer continued, "all such speech remains constitutionally protected."

Canada, England, France, Germany, the Netherlands, South Africa, Australia and India all have laws or have signed international conventions banning hate speech. Israel and France forbid the sale of Nazi items like swastikas and flags. It is a crime to deny the Holocaust in Canada, Germany and France.

Earlier this month, the actress Brigitte Bardot, an animal rights activist, was fined $23,000 in France for provoking racial hatred by criticizing a Muslim ceremony involving the slaughter of sheep.

By contrast, American courts would not stop a planned march by the American Nazi Party in Skokie, Ill., in 1977, though a march would have been deeply distressing to the many Holocaust survivors there.

Six years later, a state court judge in New York dismissed a libel case brought by several Puerto Rican groups against a business executive who had called food stamps "basically a Puerto Rican program." The First Amendment, Justice Eve M. Preminger wrote, does not allow even false statements about racial or ethnic groups to be suppressed or punished just because they may increase "the general level of prejudice."

Some prominent legal scholars say the United States should reconsider its position on hate speech.

"It is not clear to me that the Europeans are mistaken," Jeremy Waldron, a legal philosopher, wrote in The New York Review of Books last month, "when they say that a liberal democracy must take affirmative responsibility for protecting the atmosphere of mutual respect against certain forms of vicious attack."

Professor Waldron was reviewing "Freedom for the Thought That We Hate: A Biography of the First Amendment" by Anthony Lewis, the former New York Times columnist. Mr. Lewis has been critical of efforts to use the law to limit hate speech.

But even Mr. Lewis, a liberal, wrote in his book that he was inclined to relax some of the most stringent First Amendment protections "in an age when words have inspired acts of mass murder and terrorism." In particular, he called for a re-examination of the Supreme Court's insistence that there is only one justification for making incitement a criminal offense: the likelihood of imminent violence.

The imminence requirement sets a high hurdle. Mere advocacy of violence, terrorism or the overthrow of the government is not enough; the words must be meant to and be likely to produce violence or lawlessness right away. A fiery speech urging an angry mob to immediately assault a black man in its midst probably qualifies as incitement under the First Amendment. A magazine article — or any publication — intended to stir up racial hatred surely does not.

Mr. Lewis wrote that there was "genuinely dangerous" speech that did not meet the imminence requirement.

"I think we should be able to punish speech that urges terrorist violence to an audience, some of whose members are ready to act on the urging," Mr. Lewis wrote. "That is imminence enough."

Harvey A. Silverglate, a civil liberties lawyer in Cambridge, Mass., disagreed. "When times are tough," he said, "there seems to be a tendency to say there is too much freedom."

"Free speech matters because it works," Mr. Silverglate continued. Scrutiny and debate are more effective ways of combating hate speech than censorship, he said, and all the more so in the post-Sept. 11 era.

"The world didn't suffer because too many people read 'Mein Kampf,' " Mr. Silverglate said. "Sending Hitler on a speaking tour of the United States would have been quite a good idea."

Mr. Silverglate seemed to be echoing the words of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., whose 1919 dissent in Abrams v. United States eventually formed the basis for modern First Amendment law.

"The best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market," Justice Holmes wrote.

"I think that we should be eternally vigilant," he added, "against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe and believe to be fraught with death."

The First Amendment is not, of course, absolute. The Supreme Court has said that the government may ban fighting words or threats. Punishments may be enhanced for violent crimes prompted by racial hatred. And private institutions, including universities and employers, are not subject to the First Amendment, which restricts only government activities.

But merely saying hateful things about minorities, even with the intent to cause their members distress and to generate contempt and loathing, is protected by the First Amendment.

In 1969, for instance, the Supreme Court unanimously overturned the conviction of a leader of a Ku Klux Klan group under an Ohio statute that banned the advocacy of terrorism. The Klan leader, Clarence Brandenburg, had urged his followers at a rally to "send the Jews back to Israel," to "bury" blacks, though he did not call them that, and to consider "revengeance" against politicians and judges who were unsympathetic to whites.

Only Klan members and journalists were present. Because Mr. Brandenburg's words fell short of calling for immediate violence in a setting where such violence was likely, the Supreme Court ruled that he could not be prosecuted for incitement.

In his opening statement in the Canadian magazine case, a lawyer representing the Muslim plaintiffs aggrieved by the Maclean's article pleaded with a three-member panel of the tribunal to declare that the article subjected his clients to "hatred and ridicule" and to force the magazine to publish a response.

"You are the only thing between racist, hateful, contemptuous Islamophobic and irresponsible journalism, and law-abiding Canadian citizens," the lawyer, Faisal Joseph, told the tribunal.

In response, the lawyer for Maclean's, Roger D. McConchie, all but called the proceeding a sham.

"Innocent intent is not a defense," Mr. McConchie said in a bitter criticism of the British Columbia law on hate speech. "Nor is truth. Nor is fair comment on true facts. Publication in the public interest and for the public benefit is not a defense. Opinion expressed in good faith is not a defense. Responsible journalism is not a defense."

Jason Gratl, a lawyer for the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association and the Canadian Association of Journalists, which have intervened in the case in support of the magazine, was measured in his criticism of the law.

"Canadians do not have a cast-iron stomach for offensive speech," Mr. Gratl said in a telephone interview. "We don't subscribe to a marketplace of ideas. Americans as a whole are more tough-minded and more prepared for verbal combat."

Many foreign courts have respectfully considered the American approach — and then rejected it.

A 1990 decision from the Canadian Supreme Court, for instance, upheld the criminal conviction of James Keegstra for "unlawfully promoting hatred against an identifiable group by communicating anti-Semitic statements." Mr. Keegstra, a teacher, had told his students that Jews were "money loving," "power hungry" and "treacherous."

Writing for the majority, Chief Justice Brian Dickson said there was an issue "crucial to the disposition of this appeal: the relationship between Canadian and American approaches to the constitutional protection of free expression, most notably in the realm of hate propaganda."

Chief Justice Dickson said "there is much to be learned from First Amendment jurisprudence." But he concluded that "the international commitment to eradicate hate propaganda and, most importantly, the special role given equality and multiculturalism in the Canadian Constitution necessitate a departure from the view, reasonably prevalent in America at present, that the suppression of hate propaganda is incompatible with the guarantee of free expression."

The United States' distinctive approach to free speech, legal scholars say, has many causes. It is partly rooted in an individualistic view of the world. Fear of allowing the government to decide what speech is acceptable plays a role. So does history.

"It would be really hard to criticize Israel, Austria, Germany and South Africa, given their histories," for laws banning hate speech, Professor Schauer said in an interview.

In Canada, however, laws banning hate speech seem to stem from a desire to promote societal harmony. While the Ontario Human Rights Commission dismissed a complaint against Maclean's, it still condemned the article.

"In Canada, the right to freedom of expression is not absolute, nor should it be," the commission's statement said. "By portraying Muslims as all sharing the same negative characteristics, including being a threat to 'the West,' this explicit expression of Islamophobia further perpetuates and promotes prejudice toward Muslims and others."

A separate federal complaint against Maclean's is pending.

Mr. Steyn, the author of the article, said the Canadian proceedings had illustrated some important distinctions. "The problem with so-called hate speech laws is that they're not about facts," he said in a telephone interview. "They're about feelings."

"What we're learning here is really the bedrock difference between the United States and the countries that are in a broad sense its legal cousins," Mr. Steyn added. "Western governments are becoming increasingly comfortable with the regulation of opinion. The First Amendment really does distinguish the U.S., not just from Canada but from the rest of the Western world."

Comments 51 - 100 of 141 |

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51. Comment #192183 by JLD Calgary on June 12, 2008 at 2:26 pm

I saw a great hour long interview with the "three sock puppets" (the three individuals who are the model Islam spokespersons) and the fellow who wrote the article (probably through this site) debating at the end.

At no point did they debate whether the article points where true or not, just that it hurt their feelings that it was being said, and frankly, I've read the piece, it's controversial for sure, but doesn't incite any sort of hatred or violence.

I'm going to be making quite the scene here in Calgary AB if they go through with this horrible misuse of the Human Rights tribunal.

And didn't you just love how the Ontario Human Right's dismissed it, yet still released a non-legally binding verdict statement without even looking at all the facts and going through the process? They should be tarred for that horrible showing of un-professionalism and disgraceful conduct. One should wonder how these people came to be in such a position.

Other Comments by JLD Calgary

52. Comment #192190 by aegis on June 12, 2008 at 2:30 pm

"Mr. Lewis wrote that there was "genuinely dangerous" speech that did not meet the imminence requirement."

Why do I think that he might fail to include nearly every evangelical christian sermon ever in this "genuinely dangerous" speech?

Other Comments by aegis

53. Comment #192192 by Barry Pearson on June 12, 2008 at 2:31 pm

 avatarThe devil (ha!) is in the detail. Here is the (recent) law in the UK.

Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/ukpga_20060001_en_1
(incorporating section 29 into The Public Order Act 1986, from October 2007):

Summary:
29A Meaning of "religious hatred":
"In this Part "religious hatred" means hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief".

29B Use of words or behaviour or display of written material:
"A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred."

29C Publishing or distributing written material:
"A person who publishes or distributes written material which is threatening is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred".

29D Public performance of play:
"If a public performance of a play is given which involves the use of threatening words or behaviour, any person who presents or directs the performance is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred".

29E Distributing, showing or playing a recording:
"A person who distributes, or shows or plays, a recording of visual images or sounds which are threatening is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred".

29F Broadcasting or including programme in programme service:
"If a programme involving threatening visual images or sounds is included in a programme service, each of the persons mentioned in subsection (2) is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred".

29G Possession of inflammatory material:
"A person who has in his possession written material which is threatening, or a recording of visual images or sounds which are threatening .... is guilty of an offence if he intends religious hatred to be stirred up thereby".
This is all about "intent to stir up religious hatred".

Now for free speech:
29J Protection of freedom of expression:
"Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system".
I love that sentence!

In other words, you can be as abusive as you like about Islam, (or Christianity, or atheism), or the practices of such people, as long as you don't stir up hatred of adherents of these en masse. You can say "Islam is total garbage and promotes beating of wives and praying 5 times a day is stupid", but you can't say "you must hate all Muslims" (or "you must hate all atheists"). It isn't against the law to upset or offend religious people.

Has the UK got the balance right? How does this compare with Canada?

Other Comments by Barry Pearson

54. Comment #192195 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 2:33 pm

al
they should be allowed to protect themselves in a reasonable way
That's the key issue: what is reasonable. If no-one had guns, would you having one be reasonable? Well, maybe, if you were a 7 stone female and a 15 stone male had just broken into your home. But would you really need an Uzi?
London probably has a well staffed police department,
I feel like you have a quaint 'lil' ol' England' picture of London. We don't. A perennial vote winner is to promise more 'bobbies on the beat'. We never get them. Our fuck-arsed government (which I voted for) has come up with the inspired idea of letting untrained members of the public pretend to be police officers by giving them a uniform and calling them 'Community Support Officers'. They are basically jumped-up traffic wardens, with no greater arrest powers than me, but they give the appearance of us having a police presence.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

55. Comment #192196 by Eric Blair on June 12, 2008 at 2:34 pm

Let's not take this as the "Canadian view." The tribunal hasn't made its ruling yet and, whatever it concludes, this case will likely go to a "real" court, where the betting is the "freedom to offend" will be ultimately supported. And I think most Canadians would be OK with this … not so if the gavel falls on the side of the aggrieved Muslims.

The key issue here is that the author and magazine are being held responsible for the possible actions of someone reading the article. This is not the same as consciously inciting hatred (or even being "complacently indifferent to reactions that might be reasonably expected," if that's a valid legal concept).

EB

Other Comments by Eric Blair

56. Comment #192197 by mordacious1 on June 12, 2008 at 2:34 pm

The only Ammendment to Constitution that I couldn't have put up with, was the 18th. The rest are pretty damn good. As much as people here, like al and falcon, like the Bill of Rights (so do I), my favorite has to be the 14th. This Ammendment has been used to apply the Bill of Rights to the states. It is only recently that we've actually had freedom of speech, Warren Court I believe.

I know, off topic, sort of.

Other Comments by mordacious1

57. Comment #192198 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 2:35 pm

 avataralvorin,







No no, you are right, all Americans are exactly like the ones on those shows.


Your insight into the matter is, once again, priceless.... And by priceless, I mean worth nothing.

Americans are far more indiviualistic than Europeans, Europeans tend to look down there nose at Americans, until some thug dictator over runs their country at which point they get very happy at the sight of American flags. Twice American fat lazy losers have come to Europe to trounce some evil ass holes. You're welcome.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

58. Comment #192200 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 2:38 pm

al - Don't let one European's crass generalisation based on what they have seen on TV, cause you to respond in similar fashion.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

59. Comment #192202 by mordacious1 on June 12, 2008 at 2:40 pm

I hope this get rid of these HRC's for good. They've really become a Frankenstein's monster.

Other Comments by mordacious1

60. Comment #192205 by Vinelectric on June 12, 2008 at 2:45 pm

 avatarThoughtsonCommonToad and al-rawandi

So according to the first Ammendment, Muslims have a right to say all those things you complain about?

Doesn't make sense. Freedom of expression has to have its limits. The Europeans are always a step ahead in the Enlightment process.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

61. Comment #192206 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 2:45 pm

 avatarPeace,





I am not being crass, but honest.



America has been a friend to Europe and happy to stand up and have American soldiers die to maintain freedom in Europe... however imperfectly we did it. And then I get this ass clown making crass generalizations about the country that was the only reason he doesn't salute a Fuhrer right now. It is rather amusing, in a sad pathetic way.

Europe is a great place, America could learn a lot from Europe... but some of the people there have a memory of about 5 minutes and an ego the size of German Panzer division.


Thousands of Americans died at Normandy, Anzio, Arden, and numerous other places, defending their common allies in freedom. Now look what these people say, rather impressive, it takes an exceptional ignorance of history combined with an exceptional large ego.


And I am damn proud of my individualism, and I don't always subscribe to Falcon's "animated" rhetoric, but you will have to pry my individualism from my lifeless hand. And so I get real annoyed when some European rifle dropper launches into an arrogant rant.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

62. Comment #192207 by 7Fred7 on June 12, 2008 at 2:45 pm

With all the flack that the US has been taking in recent times, it's a pleasure to see, once again, that its laws are based on rock solid good sense. I've been out of the UK for many years. When I left there was a lot of hoo-haa about something called political correctness. I'm told that has now decended to unprecedented extremes. By all means let societies be bound by law, but never gagged. Freedom of speech, by definition, MUST include the right to offend. Destructive behaviour cannot be tolerated, but the free expression of opinions and ideas is essential.

Other Comments by 7Fred7

63. Comment #192210 by AutodaFe on June 12, 2008 at 2:46 pm

Oh please, not a Europe versus America slanging match.

So much for fraternity then.

Other Comments by AutodaFe

64. Comment #192213 by mordacious1 on June 12, 2008 at 2:49 pm

Vinelectric

Muslims say what that we complain about? Yes, they can "say" pretty much anything that isn't otherwise outlawed. They cannot say "I'm going to overthrow the government" for example. But if they want to SAY, "Women should be stoned for doing (whatever), yes, why shouldn't they say it? I wish they'd say it more so, people can find out who they really are.

edit: I can tell this is going to be a long, long thread.

Other Comments by mordacious1

65. Comment #192214 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 12, 2008 at 2:53 pm

I don't believe I need to explain my staunchly pro-American stance any further. The defence rests.

Americans are far more indiviualistic than Europeans, Europeans tend to look down there nose at Americans, until some thug dictator over runs their country at which point they get very happy at the sight of American flags. Twice American fat lazy losers have come to Europe to trounce some evil ass holes. You're welcome


Hey, not all of us, al, not all of us. Then again, I'm probably just an American who got born somewhere else by mistake.

Barry Pearson I think you've got that wrong. This law specifically was introduced to prevent criticism of Islam. You see, they hauled Nick Griffin of the BNP up before one of these tribunals on 'race hate' charges, and he made the point that Islam isn't a race. So they pushed this monstrosity through.

Now I don't like Nick Griffin, but that's not what this is about. I have no problem with him stating whatever his case is, as long as I have the right to say what I think about him - or anyone else, or any idea, in any place, at any time.

I don't like these Mandarins saying that I cannot criticise what I like, when I like, how I like. And I really don't like seeing laws that, all b.s. aside, are intended to protect Islam. Honestly, why don't they just import the Mutaween and be done with it? Then we could at least rise up with a clear conscience.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

66. Comment #192215 by kaiserkriss on June 12, 2008 at 2:54 pm

 avatarJLD

I'll be joining you. I sent a letter off to my MP (Diane Ablonczy)last week asking for the official position of her government on the HRT and the right to feel offended.

I just hope this episode ends up before a proper Judge and gets laughed out of court. It is just unfortunate that in the mean time ordinary citizens without the deep pockets of Mcleans Magazine will be in a similar position to defend themselves against such garbage. jcw

Other Comments by kaiserkriss

67. Comment #192217 by 7Fred7 on June 12, 2008 at 2:55 pm

63. Comment #192210 by AutodaFe
Oh please, not a Europe versus America slanging match.

No such thing AutodaFa. I'm a UK citizen (in Thailand), and I despair at what I see happening back there. Fraternity is in good shape. It's the laws that are shaky.

Other Comments by 7Fred7

68. Comment #192221 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 2:58 pm

 avatarAutodaFe,







I have nothing in common with someone dumb enough to watch "The Biggest Loser" and assumes this is the real "America". It is "Clear Thinking Oasis", says it right there at the top, too bad we don't have a screening process.


That is like me taking Amy Winehouse and saying "look at those Brits".

All this after I had to put up with his confused and rambling defense of some vague "socialism". Blech....

Other Comments by al-rawandi

69. Comment #192224 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 2:59 pm

al
I am not being crass, but honest.
You are not being crass, but you are making generalisations, and you are better than that. Consider:
that was the only reason he doesn't salute a Fuhrer right now
He of course has also the Russians to thank. And in a smaller measure, the British Army. I don't think you would find many British having anything but the utmost appreciation for the role of the US in WWII, regardless of when they entered. Of course neither you nor I actually fought in that war, so don't really have any pride to take from the situation (Doug Stanhope has a great skit about that)
Europe is a great place, America could learn a lot from Europe..
Every culture can learn from every other culture. Well, except North Korea, Burma and Congo...
Thousands of Americans died at Normandy, Anzio, Arden, and numerous other places, defending their common allies in freedom. Now look what these people say, rather impressive, it takes an exceptional ignorance of history combined with an exceptional large ego.
We should always salute individuals, of whatever birthplace, who have given everything to protect and support others.
European rifle dropper
Every coutry has its cowards and its great men. The US as much as Europe.

Overall though, my experience of this site is that we ain't much different.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

70. Comment #192227 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 3:07 pm

 avatarFanusi,



Honestly, why don't they just import the Mutaween and be done with it? Then we could at least rise up with a clear conscience




I have actually been harrassed by Mutawa'in, not pleasant... thugs, nothing more.




Peace,


Yes the Russian kicked some serious ass, no doubt. And the British mounted the bravest defense of a homeland I could imagine. America would have been wise to enter the war sooner, but we were trying to mind our own business and figured the French army would actually fight back.... but realizing the Germans were not Algerian women and children, were helpless to stop them (Attack on their colonial efforts, don't get ruffled).

I am proud that Americans have had the courage to face down evil, even though we have done some pretty terrible things overseas, to largely innocent people.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

71. Comment #192234 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 3:15 pm

 avatarI've never understood the hoopla surrounding WWI and WWII.

We owe a great deal to France, Spain and the Netherlands for our freedom here in America. Consider WWI and II us simply paying back the debt that we owed. No use getting into a pissing contest about a war that none of us were involved in.

However, I will thank Al for saying that I have animated rhetoric =)

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

72. Comment #192238 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 3:17 pm

al
Yes the Russian kicked some serious ass, no doubt
They lost 23 million in the war. That number still staggers me when I think about it.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

73. Comment #192240 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 3:18 pm

 avatarFF,






I am well aware of the French assistance provided to America. But I get sick of Europeans acting like Americans are accurately represented on "Jerry Spriner". And I notice the accuser, once called on his foolishness, has scurried off. He (alvorin) is also a socialist, of the "Cuba isn't a socialist country" variety.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

74. Comment #192244 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 12, 2008 at 3:21 pm

Al, I'm just curious, but what the heck were you doing in that hellhole?

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

75. Comment #192246 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 3:25 pm

 avatar
All I'm saying is if you can prove someone knew that he was lying, and did it intentionally to hurt a group of people, this should be grounds for legal action by members of that group hurt.


Fortunately, emotionally hurting someone in American society is not a crime.

Now, if I go around my office saying that a co-worker is a whore who prostitutes herself, I can be held accountable for that. However, if I go around my office saying that Islam is a religion that promotes terrorism, that's protected free speech. Granted, I can be fired from my job because the Constitution does not protect your employment in a company. So I could be fired but I couldn't be taken for court for any crime. I would be expressing an opinion - if I "hurt" anyone in the process, then they'll just have to get over it.


Having been to Iceland I know what you mean, but Suffolk is hardly representative of the UK. We do have London, Manchester, Bradford. Every bit as mixed as parts of America. I wouldn't pick a Pennsylvanian amish community as representative of the US.


True. But overall I'd still have to say that the UK is a much more homogeneous society than America, with exceptions such as London and Manchester. However, that pretty moves proves my point about diversity causing friction and greater chances of violence. Why is London more dangerous than Suffolk? Possibly because London is one of the most diverse cities in the world? Or because of socio-economic reasons that just makes cities more dangerous in general? Either way, my experiences have led me to believe that *in general*, the UK is more homogeneous than America. I say that with a huge grain of salt because there are some extremely homogeneous areas of America in the heartland.


That is an interesting point. Of course the war was 60 years ago, and guess what? Our younger generation seem increasingly violent (though that may be due to the natural inclination to view current times as worse than past times)


Following WWI, you saw the "Never Again" crowd take over in Europe. After their failure to prevent WWII - mankind's most terrible conflict - I think very strong anti-violence campaigns took over in Europe for good. Two disastrous wars within 20 years can have a lasting impact on the psyche of an entire continent. The UK lost an entire generation of men in the First World War alone. Societies don't easily recover from that quickly, or at all.

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

76. Comment #192247 by AutodaFe on June 12, 2008 at 3:26 pm

Al-rawandi

I take your point, ahem especially regarding Amy Winehouse.

Other Comments by AutodaFe

77. Comment #192252 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 3:29 pm

 avatar

I am well aware of the French assistance provided to America. But I get sick of Europeans acting like Americans are accurately represented on "Jerry Spriner". And I notice the accuser, once called on his foolishness, has scurried off. He (alvorin) is also a socialist, of the "Cuba isn't a socialist country" variety.


And to those assholes I simply point to things like the Phoenix Mars landing. I will gladly go toe-to-toe with anyone who claims that the American people are fat dumb and lazy who just watch American Idol all day.

But I won't stoop to their level and degrade an entire continent of people.

Believe me, the seemingly constant insinuations on this board of American backwardness drive me insane. I think at least 50% of my posts here are in defense of America and trying to explain that we really aren't run by evangelical psychos. That's not what I thought I'd be doing when I first joined this site.

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

78. Comment #192253 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 3:30 pm

 avatarFanusi,





I wouldn't call it a hell hole. I had a great time with friends, and for the most part you are left alone, it is surprisingly libertarian in some ways.

I was visiting there for a number of reasons, mostly academic. But like I said, in the privacy of spacious beach front homes on the Red Sea more fun has never been had!

Other Comments by al-rawandi

79. Comment #192265 by Lucas on June 12, 2008 at 3:43 pm

 avatarPeace - Nah, I sort of thought you were kidding. Almost deleted my post, but I figured I'd leave it in case somebody actually did think otherwise.

Other Comments by Lucas

80. Comment #192268 by Goldy on June 12, 2008 at 3:56 pm

 avatar
Believe me, the seemingly constant insinuations on this board of American backwardness drive me insane. I think at least 50% of my posts here are in defense of America and trying to explain that we really aren't run by evangelical psychos. That's not what I thought I'd be doing when I first joined this site.

Jealousy, old boy, jealousy! ;-)
Personally, most of the English I know actually live anywhere but England (like me :-D). Of the ones that still lag in Blighty, one has a mother from Arkansas and the other was almost a New Zealander (parents succumbed to parental pressure not to emigrate).
All countries in the west have a great debt to each other. The US is, I believe, greatly derived from immigrants of European extraction. Europe has accepted greatly from US technology and know how and has learnt and used the US for it's own furtherment.
Like it or not - we're family ;-) And they do say families bicker...

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81. Comment #192279 by Naturalist1 on June 12, 2008 at 4:27 pm

 avatarThought I would repost my response to a recent previous thread on this same MacLeans article. This is serious stuff here in Canada. I would also point out that these various "Tribunals" have a 100% conviction rate at both the provincial and federal levels! Thats right....no one has ever walked away from one of these things after being accused unscathed.
This still stands:
This is Rex Murphy..one of our most respected journalists weighing in on the topic. He has this segment every thursday night on The CBC National News. He takes aim at the various Canadian Human Rights tribunals specifically pointing out that these actions are FREE of charge (taxpayer funded)to the plantiff and ruinously expensive for the defendant. His target is the vary Mark Steyn/McLeans Magazine action at issue here.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xaQiGnR2Xw0

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82. Comment #192290 by Ian H Spedding FCD on June 12, 2008 at 5:26 pm

As another ex-pat Brit, I think it's scandalous that US citizens have had basic rights guaranteed in law since 1787 while Her Majesty's subjects had to wait until the 1990s to get anything remotely equivalent. This is the country that prides itself on being the mother of parliaments.

Now we have the European Convention on Human Rights incorporated into British law so everything is fine, right? The hell it is. It didn't stop the police threatening action against someone wearing a T-shirt that said "Bollocks to Blair" or carrying a placard that called Scientology a cult. A T-shirt slogan, for God's sake? That's the sort of thing that happens when you don't have a freedom spelled out clearly in statute law. It even happens when you do - sort of - if people have become so apathetic about their rights that they no longer bother standing up for them.

The only legitimate basis for any restrictions on freedom of expression is to prevent actual harm being done to the rights and interests of others. Simply stating opinions that others find offensive or even hateful is not enough.

As for the right to bear arms, one of the advantages of living in the US is that I can now pursue my interest in firearms and shooting in a way that is simplyimpossible now in the UK. I have absolutely no interest in shooting any living thing but I would like to try my hand at shooting at targets and clay disks with a variety of guns. The situation in the UK is now so absurd that the host of the 2012 Olympic Games had to grant a special exception to its draconian laws to allow the shooting events to be held there. It woudn't relax them for the British pistol-shooting team, though. They still have to practice abroad.

Maybe some day the British people will stand up and demand that the insufferably smug and arrogant ruling elite provide a written guarantee of all the rights to which they are entitled. I'm not holding my breath, though.

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83. Comment #192294 by alovrin on June 12, 2008 at 5:43 pm

And I notice the accuser, once called on his foolishness, has scurried off. He (alvorin) is also a socialist, of the "Cuba isn't a socialist country" variety.


Well well, did I say something to upset you?

And just to correct you again, I am not a "socialist" of your Cuban kind. This makes you at best a person with a reading disability, or a liar.
By the way your education ideas... suck.
Unions blah blah evil blah blah

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84. Comment #192297 by Tropical Penguin on June 12, 2008 at 5:50 pm

My first post!

Just wanted to point out that comparing America to "Europe" is like comparing one apple to an apple tree. With all due respect to the American free speech, my impression is that the Scandinavian countries in Europe have more free speech than any other country in the world, including the USA. I confess I expected many US publications to reprint the now infamous "Danish cartoons", but very few did. Rather disappointing considering the freedom to do so by law. On the question of free speech, I look at Denmark as the nation clearly in the lead.
Cheers

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85. Comment #192299 by trevok on June 12, 2008 at 6:04 pm

The so called "human rights" tribunals in the Canadian provinces are an absolute joke. Basically they exist to dole out special privileges to religious groups. In past rulings they've forced a gym to frost their windows because Orthodox Jews were walking by and seeing women working out was offensive, they've ruled that Sikh kids should be allowed to carry their kirpans to school, despite the fact any similar type of item carried by a non-Sikh would be immediate grounds for suspension, etc. etc.

I've got a few articles on my site about this and these "human rights" courts: www.blogisdead.net

The tone of this article is too congratulatory to the US. The US may have legal protections of freedom of speech, but as Alexis de Toqueville pointed out, in practice it has even less freedom of speech due to the tyranny of the majority. If everyone thinks the same thing anyway, then sure you can legally protect freedom of speech, because any dissent will be socially attacked. No need to resort to the legal system. But legal protections in the US are being eroded, you can see this with people getting FBI visits for critiquing american foreign policy or for wearing anti-war t-shirts. In terms of real freedom of speech, it's often most prevalent in places with severe legal restrictions on it, because people know the official story is a load of crap. If people think there is no official story, they're more likely to swallow it hook line and sinker, like a good number of Americans do.

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86. Comment #192303 by Opisthokont on June 12, 2008 at 6:08 pm

No-one should ever suffer legal consequences for publishing truth. Period. Any exception to that is a hideous miscarriage of justice.

As for gun laws, I am very happy not to feel like I need to own a gun for personal protection. I think it a preposterous notion that guns should be necessary for personal security. Those defenders of the US Constitution's Second Amendment who posit this seem to want to recreate the lawless culture of the pre-twentieth-century frontier. I want no part of that.

But it has been pointed out that the Second Amendment was actually intended as a guarantee that the people should be able to resist and rebel against their own government. This was meant to insure that the Revolutionary War that started the country's independence was in principle possible to happen again. However, there are a number of factors behind the Revolutionary War that made it an outlier. Most civil uprisings have not gone well for anybody. The conditions under which American independence was established are nowhere in evidence in that country today. As far as I can tell, the Second Amendment is thus a dangerous anachronism that should be scrapped.

I should mention that I am not opposed to all gun ownership. Target shooting and hunting are not unreasonable activities. But I do not think it acceptable to give up expectations of one's physical safety, and that does not mean requiring a deadly weapon in order to assure it.

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88. Comment #192323 by d0ntp4nic on June 12, 2008 at 7:08 pm

What happened to the time tested method of dealing with other people saying things you don't want to hear? Putting your fingers in your ears and humming loudly!

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89. Comment #192341 by black wolf on June 12, 2008 at 7:49 pm

 avatarAs a German, I like to say that I have great respect for the free speech laws you have in America. No buts. They work.
The only thing our laws prevent is neo-nazis making much money on merchandise. People who want to still get their flags and propaganda DVDs and Mein Kampfs from neighboring countries. The extremists still get their votes in (racking in as much as 26% of the votes in some communal elections locally).
The best times fundies and extremists ever had was when they were the only ones allowed to spew their ideologies from the pulpits and lecterns, and Joe Public was expected to shut up.
I can understand the gut reaction by many who wish the extremists would shut up and the law would enforce that. But it doesn't solve the problem.
The nazis came to power because greedy industrialists, monarchists and other anti-democracists thought they could use them as sockpuppets. Italian fascism came to power because the government was too feeble to oppose their formation of armed militias. Religious extremists come to power because extra-national secret services and global power players think they can use them as sockpuppets. The best way to expose that kind of scheme is free speech and free publication. Strike them hard when they start forming militias. Gagging them by law doesn't help, it only deafens the noise until something blows up.
Let the fundamentalists alienate the moderates, let the embarassment lie open for everyone to see. The pc and happy-clappy crowd pretend fundamentalists are just a fringe minority, or that opponents misrepresent their views. When free speech allows those views to be seen for the frothing, raving insanity they are, the Three Apes will no longer be able to maintain their hypocrisy or lose the last shred of credibility they so proudly claim in public.

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90. Comment #192355 by asupcb on June 12, 2008 at 8:47 pm

I personally am not even a big fan of libel and slander laws as they tend to be abused, IMO, and create a situation in which people assume that if someone really is lying about someone then they will get sued and if they don't then there must have been some truth to the accusations despite the fact that most libel/slander cases are lost and simply cost large sums of money to lawyers (not that there is anything wrong with being a lawyer, mostly;). Such laws don't really help protect against libel or slander as the definition of being "in the public eye" keeps expanding here anyway, especially with the advent of the growing number of bloggers. Without those laws people would just assume the person making false and/or inflammatory accusations was just lying, exaggerating, or seeking their 15 minutes of fame like a significant minority of Americans try to do. Most people I know have a pretty thick skin and you could still sue for fraud which is basically what libel and slander are. For better or worse you can sue for almost any reason in the US.

As for yelling "Fire!" in a theater there is still no need for criminal prosecution. Anyone injured could sue the person who yelled it for fraud and the owner of the business could also sue for damages. If the person couldn't pay then they would have to declare bankruptcy at the very least. Besides how often does this actually happen? I've seen situations where fire alarms have gone off and people just basically ignore them and then get up and leave rather peacefully when asked to do so.

Fighting words are a little bit different because you are threatening someone else with bodily harm but even then I don't support their criminal prosecution so long as violence does not actually ensue in which case they would be prosecuted with assault in any case. It is also hard for me to want to prosecute people who advocate (not use) rebellion and terroristic tactics because that would mean the people who founded America would fall into the same category as they used tactics which our government now refers to as terrorism and they incited hatred against George III. Whether someone is a terrorist or a freedom fighter usually depends on whose side you're on.

I don't need the government to protect me from offensive and inflammatory language, only violence from my fellow human beings. Being gay and atheist living in the South though I guess I'm just used to such things. I believe good ideas can win if they are allowed to and the people with those good ideas are willing to stand up and fight to spread those ideas.

As for gun violence in the US most of it occurs due to drug prohibition. The US murder rate has more than doubled since we began its prosecution back in the late 60's and it has shot up to levels even greater than those associated with alcohol prohibition. Drug prohibition needs to end. The "War on Drugs (and our rights)" has done little more than allow the government to violate our rights and cause violence and poverty on a massive scale. Drug prohibition is just another stupid way in which people try to perfect other human beings at the barrel of a gun. The US now has more than 1% of its population in prison and most of that has to do with Drug Prohibition. If all drugs were legalized things would be crazy for like 5-10 years but the violence levels would return to pre-prohibition levels within that same time frame just like with alcohol. People would still get addicted to drugs (like they do now) but it is 7 times cheaper to get people treated than to throw them in jail for such a non-crime. Drug prohibition has also had no effect on usage rates except perhaps an increase in more dangerous drugs like meth and crack which were originally designed to be cheaper versions of other substances such as cocaine. Ending Drug Prohibition would not solve every problem but it would allow our society to begin to deal with problems such as the cycle of poverty in poor communities, especially the black community which accounts for 63% of all convictions due to racism, more effectively.

Edited: For Grammar

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91. Comment #192358 by The Schuermannator on June 12, 2008 at 9:03 pm

 avatarOpisthokont -

I think you are failing to recognize that outlawing guns in America will only leave guns in the hands of those who shouldn't have them in the first place. It saddens me to feel the need to resort back to such simple rhetoric as "Guns don't kill people, people kill people," but it's solid logic.

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92. Comment #192359 by Goldy on June 12, 2008 at 9:17 pm

 avatar
I think you are failing to recognize that outlawing guns in America will only leave guns in the hands of those who shouldn't have them in the first place

I belive this is what happened in the UK after Dunblane.
Odd, eh, how criminals never seem to follow the laws in great detail...

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93. Comment #192363 by prettygoodformonkeys on June 12, 2008 at 9:45 pm

 avatarpeacebeuponme:
That speech should be part of the school curriculum and then prettygoodformonkeys wouldn't say such silly things.
PGFM
"The Holocaust happened. Inciting people to believe other than the historical truth is illegal because it incites people to act on lies"
It is illegal in Canada, I never said it was right. The second part of my post just shows the hypocrisy of the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal.

What part of "embarrassed about this law" was confusing?

Fuck.

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94. Comment #192376 by BeyondBelief on June 12, 2008 at 10:43 pm

 avatarIs it just me, or is there a complete lack of discussion in this article as to whether or not the content of Steyn's article is hate speech.

There's a lot of talk about different national standards on hate speech, but I don't think I saw the specific claims being made against Steyn's article. Show me the hateful speech.

Same can be said about the first 50 comments...

[edit] Wouldn't you know it... post #51 makes roughly this same point.

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95. Comment #192378 by Szkeptik on June 12, 2008 at 11:10 pm

"But even Mr. Lewis, a liberal, wrote in his book that he was inclined to relax some of the most stringent First Amendment protections "in an age when words have inspired acts of mass murder and terrorism." In particular, he called for a re-examination of the Supreme Court's insistence that there is only one justification for making incitement a criminal offense: the likelihood of imminent violence."

This is basically giving up and handing victory to the terrorists.

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96. Comment #192393 by Peacebeuponme on June 13, 2008 at 1:25 am

PGFM
What part of "embarrassed about this law" was confusing?
I've just re-read your post, and I must be having a mental block or something, because I still can't see which way it is turning!

If the the part you have requoted above is the key element, then I owe you an apology for misinterpreting.

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97. Comment #192397 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 13, 2008 at 1:40 am

BeyondBelief, in response to:

Is it just me, or is there a complete lack of discussion in this article as to whether or not the content of Steyn's article is hate speech.


Okay:

a) No, his article isn't hate speech
b) The point is that these 'hate speech' laws are cretinous.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

98. Comment #192406 by DamnDirtyApe on June 13, 2008 at 2:32 am

 avatarDammit, we need the political will in the UK to reclaim freedom of speech. We're such a corporate police these days state its sickening.

China is starting to look like it might eventually have MORE freedom than us. CHINA.

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99. Comment #192415 by mordacious1 on June 13, 2008 at 2:58 am

Whether of not Steyn's article is hate speech was hashed out in another thread on this topic, that's why it was mainly skipped here. This article is titled, "Unlike Others, U.S. Defends Freedom to Offend in Speech". Most posts here are on this topic. Do people have the right not to be offended? In America, no. Elsewhere, it seems like it.

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100. Comment #192416 by epeeist on June 13, 2008 at 3:01 am

 avatarComment #192227 by al-rawandi
and figured the French army would actually fight back.
You need to look at the numbers killed in WWII. France lost 217,600 military personnel and 267,000 civilians, 1.35% of their population. Compare that to the figures that the States lost in WWII, some 130,000 in the European theatre and 1,700 civilians, some 0.32% of the population.

Nobody disregards the contribution of the States during WWII, but to be frank I get fairly pissed off when it is used to malign others who suffered much more both in terms of casualties and devastation.

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