Monday, July 7, 2008 | Science : Evolution and Biology | print version

[UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

by Richard Dawkins

In 2006, I was one of tens of thousands of academic scientists all around the world who received, unsolicited and completely free, a huge and lavishly illustrated book called Atlas of Creation by the Turkish Muslim apologist Harun Yahya. The thesis of the book, which was published in eleven languages, is that evolution is false. The main 'evidence' consists of page after page of beautiful photographs of fossil animals, each one accompanied by a modern counterpart that is said to have changed not at all since the time of the fossil. It is a large-format book, a thick coffee-table book with more than 700 high-gloss colour pages. The cost of production of such a book must have been extremely high, and one is bound to wonder where the money came from to produce it and then distribute it gratis in so many copies and so many languages.

sea snake

Given that the entire message of the book depends upon the alleged resemblance between modern animals and their fossil counterparts, I was amused, when I began flicking through at random, to find page 468 devoted to "eels", one fossil and one modern. The caption says,

There are more than 400 species of eels in the order Anguilliformes. That they have not undergone any change in millions of years once again reveals the invalidity of the theory of evolution.

The fossil eel shown may well be an eel, I cannot tell. But the modern "eel" that Yahya pictures (see left) is undoubtedly not an eel but a sea snake, probably of the highly venomous genus Laticauda (an eel is, of course, not a snake at all but a teleost fish). I have not scanned the book for other inaccuracies of this kind. But given that this was almost the first page I looked at . . . what price the main thesis of the book that modern animals are unchanged since the time of their fossil counterparts?

Incidentally, in May 2008 Harun Yahya, whose real name is Adnan Oktar, was sentenced in a Turkish court to a three-year prison sentence "for creating an illegal organization for personal gain."

Postscript added 8th July

I have now looked at some more pages of this preposterous book. The double page spreads on page 54-55, 368-369, and 414-415 are all labelled 'Crinoid', and all purport to show how similar ancient fossil crinoids are to modern ones. Crinoids are stalked relatives of starfish, members of the phylum Echinodermata. The three spreads have almost identical captions. Here's the one on page 54:

The 345-million-year-old crinoid fossil, identical to its living counterparts, invalidates the theory of evolution. Crinoids that have remained unchanged for 345 million years refute the theory of evolution, manifesting the creation of God as a fact.

And all three spreads show a beautiful colour photograph of modern crinoids to illustrate the point. Except that, in all three cases, the modern animal pictured is not a crinoid. It isn't even an echinoderm. It isn't even a deuterostome (the sub-kingdom to which the echinoderms, and we, belong). Zoologist readers will recognize it as a tube-dwelling annelid worm, a sabellid.

On page 402, there are four fossil pictures, correctly labelled Britttlestar. The brittlestars are one of the major classes of echinoderms, others being starfish, sea urchins and crinoids. Once again, we have the standard-issue creationist caption:

This 180-million—year-old fossil reveals that brittlestars have been the same for 200 million years. These animals, no different to those living today, once again reveal the invalidity of evolution.

Here we have not one but two photographs of living animals to illustrate the lack of change since the fossils. One of these modern animals is indeed a brittlestar. The other is a starfish! Member of a completely different class of echinoderms and obviously very different to even the meanest glance.

Finally, PZ has already called attention to this on Pharyngula, but I include a picture for completeness. On page 244, Yahya wishes to say that caddis flies have not changed since some 25-million-year-old insects preserved in amber. Once again, the caption:

These living things have survived for millions of years without the slightest change in their structures. The fact that these insects never changed is a sign that they never evolved.

By now, we have come to expect something pretty good when we look at the photograph of the modern animal. What will the modern 'caddis fly' be? A minnow, perhaps? A garden slug? A king prawn? No, in a way is better than any of these: A fishing lure, complete with prominent steel hook!

I am at a loss to reconcile the expensive and glossy production values of this book with the "breathtaking inanity" of the content . Is it really inanity, or is it just plain laziness — or perhaps cynical awareness of the ignorance and stupidity of the target audience — mostly Muslim creationists. And where does the money come from?

Written especially for RichardDawkins.net

Also see:
'Forbidden Music' post on Yahya
Fishing lure photos taken from Graham Owen Fly Tying

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2251. Comment #216563 by Joe Morreale on July 23, 2008 at 9:45 am

al,

you also got no morals or class, why the stripper when you have whitepearl available?!

Other Comments by Joe Morreale

2252. Comment #216564 by al-rawandi on July 23, 2008 at 9:46 am

Joe,

Send me a private message, but I have a policy that anything stupid you say can and will be used against you and other Muslims wherever the hell I see fit.

Now take a look at my avatar and tell me if I look like the kind of person who gets scared easily?

Drink your camel urine and pipe down and stop being all Super Mario Brothers online.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

2253. Comment #216565 by Hellene on July 23, 2008 at 9:47 am

Mr. Joe Morreale,

I hope this finds you in good health and spirits.

Again let me point out that no one has converted.

On the contrary every one is repulsed.

So again I ask.

What next?

The Poll tax?

Physical Jihad?

And why are you disrespectful of your host country.

Is this the way of Islam?

To bite the hand that feeds you?

Do you daydream about a global Caliphate?

Or perhaps you dream of the next step?

"Freedom or Death ! "

The Hellene

Other Comments by Hellene

2254. Comment #216568 by Joe Morreale on July 23, 2008 at 9:50 am

al,

you look like a fat plum with no balls who does not want to talk on the phone.

The reason is your false confidence will be exposed and your articulacy will count for nothing.

The same goes for 'throwing pebbles at the tide'

Other Comments by Joe Morreale

2255. Comment #216569 by phasmagigas on July 23, 2008 at 9:50 am

interestingly ive only had one personal negative experience of religion in the UK (well a specifically directed one from another person).

i was talking to a muslim guy and in the course of a general conversation he asked if i was religious (hed been talking about islam amazingly enough) anyway i said, no, i dont actually beleive in god.

anyway he suddenly got all crazy and turned from a reasonable nice chap and started sort of side stepping and sticking his chest out and saying 'well that means you dont beleive in allah....' anyway after a bit more from my side he started actually doing the whole gangster thing in front of me, you know the hand gestures like he was almost dancing and his accent changed inrto some strange hybrid of american/pakistani/english, he was saying things like 'well, chooknow its all about allah, right, you know what am sayin' anyway it certainy got his goat up. all rather scary. i just wonder what somebody with his attuitude would have been like with say 10 more similar guys in a country where murder of non believers is more acceptable.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

2256. Comment #216571 by kaiserkriss on July 23, 2008 at 9:52 am

I was having a rough morning UNTIL I found this thread. What an absolute beaut! I have never found myself laughing so much.

Thanks Joe for making me laugh, I never thought people would allow themselves to be humiliated so much. You are indeed a sorry specimen of your humanity and your religion. By the way your comments to Whitepearl are totally offensive and offside and disgusting. jcw

Other Comments by kaiserkriss

2257. Comment #216572 by phasmagigas on July 23, 2008 at 9:52 am

Now take a look at my avatar and tell me if I look like the kind of person who gets scared easily?

big muscle boy blows hotdogs in public, that takes some guts :)

Other Comments by phasmagigas

2258. Comment #216574 by al-rawandi on July 23, 2008 at 9:56 am

Joe,

you also got no morals or class, why the stripper
when you have whitepearl available?!

How do you know anything about my morals?

I got a stripper's number. I never touched her, I kept it to give out to idiots like you.

As for whitepearl, she can certainly defend herself, but it must really bother you that a woman is about 5 times as smart as you are, more articulate, and worst of all probably out of your league.

Why the obsession with whitepearl, can't you pick on some other women. I am sure Dinah would appreciate the attention on the Islam in New York thread.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

2259. Comment #216575 by al-rawandi on July 23, 2008 at 9:58 am

phasmagigas,

It takes a real man to deep throat a chicken apple dog at a crowded BBQ. I dare you to do it!

Other Comments by al-rawandi

2260. Comment #216576 by Joe Morreale on July 23, 2008 at 10:00 am

TAKE NOTE EVERBODY THAT A RUSTIC ITALIAN GARDNER BURIED YOU ALL IN A MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE THAT IS ALL OVER THE SITE FOR ANYONE TO SEE THAT HAS A GRAIN OF SINCERETY AND IS NOT IN SUBMISSION TO THEIR WHIMS/DESIRES AND VAIN WISHFUL-THINKING

IN RESPONSE TO THAT, LITTLE MORE THEN PEBBLE THROWING, MOCKING AND VERBAL ACROBATICS WHICH IS TYPICAL OF ATHEISTS.

THAT IS WHY NO ONE COMES FORWARD ON THE PHONE BECAUSE ARTICULACY WILL COUNT FOR JACK.
YOU DO NOT WANT TO LEAVE YOUR COMFORT ZONES.

SERIOUSLY, NO BALLS

REMEMBER THE NAME MO-REE-AH-LEE,

JOE MORREALE

Other Comments by Joe Morreale

2261. Comment #216579 by Hellene on July 23, 2008 at 10:00 am

Mr Joe Morreale,

"A BELIEVER WILL ALWAYS STRIKE TERROR IN THE HEART OF THE DISBELIEVERS."

Does this mean that you are a terrorist?

Should we refer your Tel# to the Yard or MI-6 ?

Let us know please.

Other Comments by Hellene

2262. Comment #216580 by al-rawandi on July 23, 2008 at 10:01 am

Joe,

Remember the name you-got-fucking-owned.

You are a walking advertisement for apostasy.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

2263. Comment #216583 by Dr Doctor on July 23, 2008 at 10:04 am

I'm wondering about the holocaust denial, is that a crime in the UK?

Other Comments by Dr Doctor

2264. Comment #216584 by phasmagigas on July 23, 2008 at 10:06 am

It takes a real man to deep throat a chicken apple dog at a crowded BBQ. I dare you to do it!

al, im almost offended, thats a dreadful thing to suggest, a CHICKEN APPLE DOG, OMG, a good old fashioned english cumberland sausage would be a more impressive trick, if you see one you will understand why.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00666/cumberland-sausage-_666976c.jpg

Other Comments by phasmagigas

2265. Comment #216587 by Sciros on July 23, 2008 at 10:14 am

I'm wondering about the holocaust denial, is that a crime in the UK?

I'm pretty sure that if it were a crime in the UK, there would be like 1000x more muslims with criminal records than there are now.

Other Comments by Sciros

2266. Comment #216590 by Joe Morreale on July 23, 2008 at 10:16 am

It would not be right if i did not leave you with a final reminder:

GOD HAS CLEARLY SAID THAT THOSE WHO HAVE MADE THEIR WHIMS AND DESIRES THEIR 'GOD' DEGRADE AND RUIN THEMSELVES.

I HAVE YET AGAIN PROVED EVERYTHING I SET OUT TO DO BUT YOU CAN TAKE A HORSE TO THE WATER...

IT IS THEREFORE FOOLISH FOR ME TO CONTINUE ENGAGING WITH THOSE WHO GOD HAS FORSAKEN BECAUSE OF THE DISEASES IN THEIR HEART.

TO THOSE WHO DENY GOD, CREATION, THE SOUL AND THE HEREAFTER

21:30 Do not the unbelievers see how the heavens and the earth were joined together before We cloved them asunder? And we made every living thing out of water. WILL THEY THEN NOT BELIEVE?

39:42 It is Allah that takes the souls of men at death: and those that die not He takes during their sleep: Those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back from returning to life, but the rest He sends to their bodies for a term appointed. VERILY IN THIS ARE SIGNS FOR THOSE WHO REFLECT.

75:3-4 Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones? Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very TIPS OF HIS FINGERS.

4:56 Those who reject Our signs, We shall soon cast into the fire; as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is exalted in power, wise.

REMEMBER THAT YOU HAVE NOT DIED BEFORE SO WHAT IS YOUR BACK UP PLAN?!

Other Comments by Joe Morreale

2267. Comment #216591 by Hellene on July 23, 2008 at 10:16 am

My apologies Mr. Morreale...

Did I "out" you by mistake?

Again I ask.

Are you a terrorist?

Other Comments by Hellene

2268. Comment #216593 by al-rawandi on July 23, 2008 at 10:19 am

Joe,

You didn't include the prescription to drink camel urine. I am disappointed.

Why did your prophet molest children, takes slave, and drink camel piss? Do you do all these things? If not, you are a bad Muslim.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

2269. Comment #216595 by Dr Doctor on July 23, 2008 at 10:19 am

Seeing you like great works of fiction, can I recommend the Frank Herbert Dune series Joe?

Plenty of religious babble in there and it has an excellent plotline. Plenty of battles.

Other Comments by Dr Doctor

2270. Comment #216597 by Tezcatlipoca on July 23, 2008 at 10:19 am

don't forget

6:66 Those named Joe Morreale shall be without women, here or in the afterlife. And in the material world they shall be PWND

Other Comments by Tezcatlipoca

2271. Comment #216599 by thewhitepearl on July 23, 2008 at 10:23 am

probably out of your league

Probably?

Ahh and you are just a clean white sparkly version of class and morality huh? I don't think anyone, including your beloved Nazik would agree that your behavior is classy or moral. I could be wrong. Who knows? It's not like he subsribes to a belief system that is rooted in morality any way.

As for me, I'm not for sell. Not even for your two goats and a chicken. Get the fuck over it. Take your hands out of your pants and dream on.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

2272. Comment #216602 by Hellene on July 23, 2008 at 10:28 am

Mr. Joe Morreale,

This is very important.

Are you going to do physical harm to people or property in the name of your religion?

If you don't answer this question we will assume you have something to hide.

Other Comments by Hellene

2273. Comment #216604 by al-rawandi on July 23, 2008 at 10:30 am

Whitepearl,

Probably.... maybe.... definitely????

*In best Afghan accent*

"I have cousin, live alone, have very much big business. He must need wife, I give you 4 goats, I milk cow and VHS player... you want marry?"

Other Comments by al-rawandi

2274. Comment #216605 by Dr Doctor on July 23, 2008 at 10:32 am

Hmmm.

National stereotypes, classy.

For a while there the moral highground was with you.

Other Comments by Dr Doctor

2275. Comment #216609 by al-rawandi on July 23, 2008 at 10:39 am

Dr. Doctor,

Sacha Baron Cohen and I can draw your ire together.

Calm down.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

2276. Comment #216611 by The Reverend Dark on July 23, 2008 at 10:40 am

Joe brays, sprays, and shuffles off like a gunslinger to change his panties.

TAKE NOTE EVERBODY THAT A RUSTIC ITALIAN GARDNER BURIED YOU ALL IN A MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE THAT IS ALL OVER THE SITE FOR ANYONE TO SEE THAT HAS A GRAIN OF SINCERETY AND IS NOT IN SUBMISSION TO THEIR WHIMS/DESIRES AND VAIN WISHFUL-THINKING

Not exactly you gibbering cretin. The 'rustic Italian gardener' did deliver a pile of shite; but in his quaint, head-up-arse fashion, piled it into the living room, rather than in the garden.

It wasn't even good shite; certainly nothing in there to promote growth.

With a few deft twists of my shovel, I demonstrated, easily, the very poor quality of science that Adnan Oktar and his pack of cretinous dickheads bring to the table. These pissant little fucks wouldn't know a transitional species if it crawled up their personal road to Mecca and commenced having enthusiastic doggy style sex with their livers. They certainly do not know the evolutionary history of starfish, despite using in their argument (in fact the fucktards get it ass-backwards.)

Then you post a phone number that has been disconnected. Bad rustic gardener. No counting to 11 in public, you will be arrested.

So you misogynist fuck. I have to ask. Why the Islamic obsession with virgins? Do you adore purity, or just really dread comparison?

Given that your statements indicate that purity is of no interest to you, that would point to the alternative.

Git.
Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

2277. Comment #216612 by Dr Doctor on July 23, 2008 at 10:42 am

Ah, the resort to "calm down", trying to imply a critic is not calm. Usually guaranteed to cause rage.

No, sorry, resorting to that bit of cheap national stereotyping is weaselly, not to mention irrelevent.

SBC? Is that an argument from authority? Impressed. Not.

Other Comments by Dr Doctor

2278. Comment #216616 by al-rawandi on July 23, 2008 at 10:46 am

Dr. Doctor,

My Afghhan friends laugh pretty hard. I will let them know you are standing in solidarity with them.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

2279. Comment #216633 by thewhitepearl on July 23, 2008 at 11:01 am

Al,

Hmm sounds tempting...Does he own a gas station? And if so..what is he stance on slurpees?

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

2280. Comment #216636 by Tezcatlipoca on July 23, 2008 at 11:03 am

Oh man,

a cherry slurpee would so finish me off. I'm already in a food coma from my bowl of gumbo at lunch. Stop the torture.

Other Comments by Tezcatlipoca

2281. Comment #216641 by al-rawandi on July 23, 2008 at 11:10 am

We went over the various schools of jurisprudence and their positions on slushees/slurpees. It totally depends... if he is Hizari he may well be a slurpee fan. But if he is Deobandi... You may be out of luck.

However, Dr. Doctor is going to rain on our parade now, because we are "stereotyping Afghans".

Other Comments by al-rawandi

2282. Comment #216645 by The Reverend Dark on July 23, 2008 at 11:13 am

Al Notes

However, Dr. Doctor is going to rain on our parade now, because we are "stereotyping Afghans".

But... But... they are warm, and fuzzy, and come in so many colours.

Perhaps it is stereotyping, but now is not the time to look back in angora.

Cheers,
Shayne

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

2283. Comment #216647 by black wolf on July 23, 2008 at 11:15 am

Ach Joe,
you're not doing very well. You're actually doing quite poorly for the purpose you intend. I've read countless posts all over the web from people who made the final step to atheism and away from religion precisely because of people like you. Thank you Joe, keep it up. You're helping atheism in a way we never could. See, people looking for a purpose in life and trying to find God don't like being yelled at, they don't like having random nonsensical verses from old books written by ignorant people shoved down their ears. They want to be convinced. You're doing the opposite. Again, thank you.

Other Comments by black wolf

2284. Comment #216650 by black wolf on July 23, 2008 at 11:19 am

I have an Afghan friend, and he does have a cute accent.
You like-a box for that, eh? You are-a craaazy guy, eh?

Other Comments by black wolf

2285. Comment #216651 by phasmagigas on July 23, 2008 at 11:20 am

National stereotypes, classy.

im all for stereotyping nationalities, or having a dig at one another for benign local peculiarities, eg i can laugh at my US neighbours for their love of horrible pre cooked brats and budweiser light when I know i had exposure to superior fayre in the UK.

sterotyping seems to be such a natural thing to do that i think to actually supress it is damaging. of course its supposed to be done for fun, for laughs, for jokes (massively important to the human psyche)thats where it should stay, actually i notice informal conversations can often be little more than a big string of joking.

further, it happens everywhere, try gong to wales as an english person and not have a laugh with the welsh about stereotypes, if you tried to refrain from that there'd be nothing to do but chase sheep.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

2286. Comment #216660 by Tezcatlipoca on July 23, 2008 at 11:28 am

Phas!

I take great offense at the pre cooked brat comment! On sunday I took uncooked brats, simmered them in beer with onions peppercorns and garlic and then finished them off on the grill. But then again I live in an area contiguous to the Great Lakes. East of the Mississippi and North of the Mason-Dixon line...

p.s. The beer was not bud light!

-edit- baby! the other white meat...

Other Comments by Tezcatlipoca

2287. Comment #216661 by Sciros on July 23, 2008 at 11:28 am

WHY SO SERIOUS??

Oh yeah, Batman line! I win.

No problem with stereotype jokes as long as they don't strike a nerve in a way that's so insensitive as to kill the humor. Sometimes that happens, but in this case I don't think it did.

On sunday I took uncooked brats, simmered them in beer with onions peppercorns and garlic and then finished them off on the grill

No more babysitting for you.

Other Comments by Sciros

2288. Comment #216701 by epeeist on July 23, 2008 at 12:31 pm

Comment #216555 by thewhitepearl

Epeeist,

Do you have that entire list saved somewhere? It seems to get longer and longer everytime you post it.

I just go back to my previous posts and collect the last one.

It gets longer as Jeo (bastard never spells my moniker correctly) doesn't answer yet another question that was put to him.

Other Comments by epeeist

2289. Comment #216712 by Vinelectric on July 23, 2008 at 12:45 pm

Joe Morreale / Khanzee / Clearmind:

Re: 21:30 and 75:3-4.

Have you not noticed that 21:30 contradicts the Big Bang model in every way? Stars are born when gaseous nebulae condense or clump together not "cleft asunder". Planets are born when interstellar dust "comes together" into larger lumps or as by-products of star formation.

The verse seems to imply that the stars and planets were one entity that disintegrated into its constituents. And that is the meaning you give in the translation, not the true meaning according to Muhammad's trusted companions. In fact the true meaning, as I've alreay linked twice before, is more to do with Allah imbuing the (seven) heavens and Earth with the means to support life.

Interestingly, Muhammad's theory turned out to be the exact opposite of what we've come to learn through direct obsrvation and sound scientific reasoning. That should be an embarrasement not something to brag about.

As for 75:3-4, I've already explained to you that the actual meaning, according to Ibn Abbas, (the best man to understand the Quran according to Muhammad himself), is much less impressive and more bizarre than what you've been led to believe.

These verses may cause you to de-convert one day. That will only happen when you learn the language and get to read entry-level Islamic texts for yourself.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

2290. Comment #216713 by Apathy personified on July 23, 2008 at 12:45 pm

Ok, hands up - who's converting to islam now?

Al, haha - you legend (the 'home' and 'office' numbers you provided for joe....)

Other Comments by Apathy personified

2291. Comment #216719 by al-rawandi on July 23, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Was I too hard on Joe?

Other Comments by al-rawandi

2292. Comment #216721 by Tezcatlipoca on July 23, 2008 at 12:53 pm

He will be back. He's not afraid of plums, only prunes...

Other Comments by Tezcatlipoca

2293. Comment #216725 by Brian English on July 23, 2008 at 12:58 pm

Joe:

GOD HAS CLEARLY SAID THAT THOSE WHO HAVE MADE THEIR WHIMS AND DESIRES THEIR 'GOD' DEGRADE AND RUIN THEMSELVES....
TO THOSE WHO DENY GOD, CREATION, THE SOUL AND THE HEREAFTER

Isn't this the same god who hardened our hearts so we would not believe? Not our fault then is it?

Other Comments by Brian English

2294. Comment #216726 by Aztek on July 23, 2008 at 12:59 pm

kaiserkriss: I agree with you to 100%. Joey is hilarious. In a tragic kind of way.

But after 3000 comments of this it is a little boring already. He has been spreading his wisdom in other places too (notice his trademark the "YELLING"):
http://darwiniana.com/2008/07/03/overnight-invasion-from-harun-yahya-group/

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/06/19/harun-yahya-preaches-islam-slams-darwin-and-awaits-jesus/

http://blog.darwincentral.org/2008/05/11/harun-yahya-given-3-year-jail-sentence/

Come on people. Joey is not just a little weird. He is clearly deranged. Not even believers spend so much time rambling on as he does. He will not be convinced about anything you say so how about we just leave him alone in his comfortable world of delusions.

Other Comments by Aztek

2295. Comment #216729 by al-rawandi on July 23, 2008 at 1:01 pm

Brian,

Mun yahda Allahu la Yadal leh, wa mun yadal Allahu la yahda leh

-"Whomever Allah guides to truth there is no error for him and whomever God has led astray there is no guidance for him"

The fatalism of Islam is what makes the calls to convert truly amusing.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

2296. Comment #216731 by Brian English on July 23, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Al, it reminds of certain christian sects that say there are only a few chosen and the rest cannot be saved and it's their fault. Lovely.

Other Comments by Brian English

2297. Comment #216733 by Vinelectric on July 23, 2008 at 1:04 pm

al-rawandi

You've certainly sabotaged his efforts to impress the audience! What face of Islam is this guy promoting by abusing white pearl and talking dirty back to you?

He's either too dumb for you to care or really putting it on.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

2298. Comment #216737 by Vinelectric on July 23, 2008 at 1:07 pm

al-rawandi

The fatalism of Islam is what makes the calls to convert truly amusing.

The mother of all psychological subversion.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

2299. Comment #216741 by al-rawandi on July 23, 2008 at 1:13 pm

Aztek,

If you look at those blogs, Joe has accidentally copied and pasted the

Rank This Comment | Flag as: [troll] [spam] [offensive]

From RD.net into the post. He is such a fucking idiot he doesn't even bother to get his plagarisms right or to disguise them.

Sad sad sad man.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

2300. Comment #216755 by epeeist on July 23, 2008 at 1:32 pm

Comment #216741 by al-rawandi