









Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title)102. Comment #6150 by Randy Ping on November 12, 2006 at 10:07 pm
Mark, you are so much more patient and polite than I am capable of being with a wanton fool. I salute you.103. Comment #6151 by Anonymous on November 12, 2006 at 10:28 pm
It would help arguments to be more credible if folk could take the time to get basic facts right.104. Comment #6185 by Aussie on November 13, 2006 at 3:28 am
David,105. Comment #6194 by saneatheist on November 13, 2006 at 4:20 am
I keep seeing references in this debate to "fundamentalist Atheists", if the people making this referernce would check their dictionary, you will see that this is an oxymoron,106. Comment #6197 by Paul on November 13, 2006 at 4:30 am
David Robertson: This is either because he wants to cop out or because he believes not only that evolution is true but also that evolution disproves God. The first is a scientific statement that surely should be up for discussion the latter is a statement that I think is untrue.108. Comment #6201 by saneatheist on November 13, 2006 at 5:14 am
I'm still waiting for a response from Mr Robertson; To this post from William.110. Comment #6205 by Steve on November 13, 2006 at 6:02 am
It is irrelevant what Jesus said if he never existed. Why are you even discussing what is said in the Bible?111. Comment #6219 by Steve on November 13, 2006 at 8:22 am
"I'd rather burn" is not an anti-theistic argument, it is a non-issue. We haven't got past first base here, with no good reason to believe in the existence of the "old book" god there is no need to worry about whether I accept him or not.112. Comment #6226 by CF1 on November 13, 2006 at 9:14 am
Yorker: I share your feelings that you posted (on previous page). I think it was Robert Fulghum who said: "Ever notice how those who are eager to tell you about their religous beliefs have no interest in hearing about yours?"113. Comment #6228 by saneatheist on November 13, 2006 at 9:56 am
Quote To sumarise, japan (secular) lot less murder than god bothering USA Unquote.114. Comment #6237 by Bitterman on November 13, 2006 at 10:49 am
"I'm afraid that you have fallen into the trap of assuming that science and faith in Jesus are de facto opposed. This is not the case. Any more than cooking and faith in Jesus are opposed. You can cook a good meal and not be a Christian, you can be a good scientist and not be a Christian. But you can also be a good scientist and a Christian."115. Comment #6238 by Anonymous on November 13, 2006 at 10:56 am
David responds to a question of mine as follows:116. Comment #6240 by No More Hornets on November 13, 2006 at 10:58 am
Oops.117. Comment #6244 by Isaiah on November 13, 2006 at 11:18 am
I really do not think this debate with Robertson is going anywhere. He is severely outnumbered, and there are so many ideas floating around that he is not going to be able to satisfactorily answer (or show his inability to answer) all of them. So the situation is bad for all sides concerned.118. Comment #6245 by Mike on November 13, 2006 at 11:27 am
Finlay and David Robertson,120. Comment #6256 by No More Hornets on November 13, 2006 at 12:14 pm
Isaiah:121. Comment #6261 by G Bile on November 13, 2006 at 12:27 pm
One could take the position that one should not be concerned with what others do in their Sing and Pray Club (church), Bow and Pray Club (mosque), Shake and Pray Club (synagoge), or where-ever. As long as they don't harm anyone with that behavior, who should care? But, like Dawkins and also Harris state, they DO hurt others, and very much on the basis of their Club-rules.123. Comment #6294 by Fedler on November 13, 2006 at 2:05 pm
I, also, think this thread has become too negative, from both sides.124. Comment #6296 by Anonymous on November 13, 2006 at 2:11 pm
Re: bibles in hotel rooms. The actor Ian McKellan has gone on record as saying that if he is ever in a hotel room that has a Gideon bible in it, then he rips out the pages bearing homophobic texts - Leviticus and stuff like that.125. Comment #6299 by oj on November 13, 2006 at 2:16 pm
David Robertson,126. Comment #6304 by Fedler on November 13, 2006 at 2:37 pm
Thanks, Alex. I, too, have always had doubts I always brushed aside, as if they were someone else's problem. But with my dad's accident, someone else's problem suddenly became my religious crossroads. For me it wasn't so much "Why has god allowed/caused this to happen?", but of a matter of free choice. Thinking of all the myriad of things that had to happen that night in order to get my dad at that intersection at exactly the wrong time, how could this have been a matter of choice, specifically, of 'god's will'? And to say things happened for a reason, implies a conscious decision by someone/something to teach me something by way of my dad being killed. Reason needs to flow FROM someone/something. If god is the kind of being who kills people in order to have some other people learn something, then that's the kind of god I want on my side. That's what started by year-long (so far) struggle with my religion. I've become quite the bookworm this past year reading various books by Dawkins, Sam Harris and others (including their most staunch objectors, aka Michael Behe). I'm currently reading Darwin's On the Origins of Species to get a feel for where the majority of this came from. It's hard reading, but illuminating.128. Comment #6307 by Riley on November 13, 2006 at 3:00 pm
David,129. Comment #6309 by Jonathan Dore on November 13, 2006 at 3:16 pm
David130. Comment #6311 by saneatheist on November 13, 2006 at 3:20 pm
I have just recieved this from an aquaintance in Glasgow who obviousley knows of this guy, so I will take no further part in this debate.131. Comment #6312 by Anonymous on November 13, 2006 at 3:22 pm
Fedler, I confess to having only made several false starts with the Origin. It is hard reading, although its just a matter of Victorian style rather than any inherent difficulty in the ideas portrayed. The Voyage of the Beagle, by the way, is a much easier read. For those interested in the development of Darwin's thought, Janet Browne's two volume biography is superb and may well replace Desmond and Moore's classic. There is though a lot to be said for persevering with the Origin, I guess. I note too that Janet Browne has written a wee book in the 'Books that Shook the World' series (Atlantic) that may well be worth a look. Another useful, if at times difficult book, is Antony Flew's 'Darwinian Evolution'.132. Comment #6315 by Jonathan Dore on November 13, 2006 at 3:28 pm
OJ wrote: "...My anchestor told this man that he had the [Origin of Species]. "You must never tell it to anyone!" said the other man."133. Comment #6331 by Jonathan Dore on November 13, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Gordy M134. Comment #6336 by Fedler on November 13, 2006 at 5:14 pm
Somewhere in TGD I believe Dawkins states something to the effect of "you don't always need to know the details of something to believe/disbelieve its basic beliefs" (I'm largely paraphrasing here. If someone wants me to look it up, I will, but I don't feel inclined to do it now). It doesn't matter what the details are when it's the basic ideas or assumptions that appear to be flawed.135. Comment #6373 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 12:09 am
Mr Robertson on another complicated, difficult issue - the virus of faith?137. Comment #6378 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 12:58 am
Quote:138. Comment #6398 by saneatheist on November 14, 2006 at 4:11 am
Mr Robertson, you are STILL refering to Dawkins as a fundamentalist, please stop it.139. Comment #6406 by Fedler on November 14, 2006 at 4:50 am
Re: Comment #6388 by David Robertson140. Comment #6412 by Mike on November 14, 2006 at 5:34 am
Gordy M - 276141. Comment #6417 by Fedler on November 14, 2006 at 6:13 am
There appears to be an inherent flaw in this thread, which is that believers and nonbelievers have different definitions of 'proof' or 'evidence'. Whereas believers seem to consider 'evidence' of a more metaphysical nature, nonbelievers define 'evidence' as that gained through the traditional scientific method. Therein lies the critical flaw. Until the terms are defined equally to both sides, the quibbling over details is less legit. I'm at work now so I can't expand this further, but that seems to be vital to have true understanding happening on either side of the issue.142. Comment #6426 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 7:16 am
Fedler, thats fair comment. I'm not at work today, so here's my own take.143. Comment #6427 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 7:23 am
david to sane atheist:144. Comment #6431 by Riley on November 14, 2006 at 8:17 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------145. Comment #6447 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 9:57 am
Nate,146. Comment #6452 by Jack Sparrow on November 14, 2006 at 10:14 am
Comment 385 Billy Sands "Why there is no God"147. Comment #6461 by No More Hornets on November 14, 2006 at 11:44 am
David:148. Comment #6473 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 1:06 pm
bj149. Comment #6475 by Navanax on November 14, 2006 at 1:11 pm
David Robertson. May your shit come to life an kiss you.150. Comment #6480 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 1:27 pm
Billy, youre Scottish arent you? (this is just an aside, not really a lot to do with this thread, just that Courier connection) I think there are a lot of Scots on this forum... Land of John Knox and all that....
101. Comment #6131 by Jenna on November 12, 2006 at 7:08 pm
Dear Jack Sparrow,If you're so concerned about evidence (which we all should be) then why, since it is your belief (assuming that you're Christian) that all nonbelievers will go to hell, doesn't God Himself (not Jesus, not some prophet, but the Big Guy Himself) come down and annouce to the world what is the true faith and that He really is everything that the Bible says that He is? Right now, honestly, there is no more evidence to support the God of the Bible than there is to support the Gods of ancient Greeks or Romans. I too have my personnal doubts about spontaneous beginning of the universe. I am open to the concept of a creative force that threw everything into motion. However, as Prof. Dawkins points out, if one believes that the universe is too complicated to exist without a creator then you must admit that any being who could create something so complex must have a creator Himself. Personnally, not to insult you, I find literal belief in myths three thousand years old to be much more naive than exploring scientific concepts with an open mind and finding some truth there. Scientists do not know everything about creation and evolution, nor do theologians. The difference between the two is that scientists are willing to admit their ignorance and work to discover what they do not know while the theologians are perfectly content and even revel in their ignorance. Jenna