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Friday, November 10, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title)

by David Robertson

UPDATE11-15-06: David Robertson has continued his discussion of The God Delusion here:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/novb06.htm

Reposted from:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/nov06.htm

Thaks to James for sending it in.

Dear Dr Dawkins,

Forgive me for writing you but I am really frustrated. You see, I read your book, The God Delusion (great title but of course it does just open itself to the rejoinder in the title above – which I am sure many others will pick up on). There was so much in it that I could identify with and yet so much that was to my mind just simply wrong. I would love to discuss it with you, or with those who are your disciples, but I'm afraid that I am not an Oxford Don, I don't have access to the media you do, and I am not part of the Establishment. Therefore it is very difficult to dialogue about these things. And of course you have stated that you do not discuss with 'fundamentalists' or those who would be stupid enough to disagree with you. Apparently you want 'intelligent' conversation and anyone who believes in revelation or supernaturalism is de facto non intelligent, therefore not worth discussing with. Given that the subject you are so vehement about is the whole question of supernaturalism and whether there is a God or not, do you not think it is kind of loading the dice to only discuss with those who already share your presuppositions?

Anyway although I do not expect you to read this, I am writing it for my own benefit and for the sake of those who having read your book, perhaps share the same frustrations, or maybe have even been influenced or feel threatened by it. Of course I realise that most people who buy your book will already be converts – they already share your faith and will be looking for reassurance or confirmation. Although your book is an evangelistic work, written with the specific intention of converting religious readers to atheists by the time they reach the end, you know as well as I do that the vast majority of people who read it will already be convinced. You are preaching to the choir. This is rather obvious even from the people who write the blurb on the jacket cover, admittedly not normally unbiased objective judges. Stephen Pinker, Brian Eno, Derren Brown and Philip Pullman all wax lyrical about your book – but then they would wouldn't they? Each of them being convinced atheists already and fairly desperate to have their particular belief system endorsed. Pullman wants your anti-faith book to be put into every faith school (nothing like wanting to indoctrinate children is there?). Eno says it is 'a book for the new millennium, one in which we may be released from lives dominated by the supernatural'. Heady stuff. But best of all is Derren Brown who affirms The God Delusion as his 'favourite book of all time'. It is 'a heroic and life-changing work'. He wants those who are 'secure and intelligent enough to see the value of questioning their beliefs will be big enough and strong enough to read this book'.

Well, I have read it. I did expect to be challenged. But actually I was very disappointed. Of course it was well written, very entertaining and passionate. But at an intellectual and logical level it really misses the mark. I'm sorry but I honestly think I could have made a better case for atheism. Most of the arguments are of sixth form school boy variety. And this from the 'one of the worlds' top three intellectuals' (as the book jacket so helpfully reminds us). Is this really the best that atheism has to offer? (Memo to self - why did I once feel so challenged by atheism?). What is disturbing about this is that your fundamentalist atheism will actually be taken seriously by some and will be used to reinforce their already prejudiced anti-religion and anti-Christian stance. Your 'arguments' will be repeated ad nauseum in newspaper letters columns, opinion pages, pubs and dinner tables throughout the land. You will forgive me saying this but it seems remarkably similar to the kind of thing that 'intellectuals' were putting out in 1930's Germany about the Jews and Judaism. Just as the Jews were responsible for all the ills in Weimar Germany, so according to your book religious people are responsible for the majority of ills in today's society. Along with John Lennon you want us to 'imagine' a world with no religion. A world which you claim would have no suicide bombers (I assume it slipped your mind that the majority of suicide attacks have been by the secular Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers?), no crusades, no 9/11, no Israeli/Palestinian wars etc. By the way John Lennon was one of my heroes and I loved Imagine. Then I grew up and realised that it took a great deal of imagination to take seriously a song which spoke of imagining a world 'with no possessions too' written by a man who lived in a mansion and had an abundance of possessions, whilst there were millions dying from lack of resources. It seems to me that your vision/imagination is almost as unrealistic as Lennon's. You want us to imagine that there is no God. And then you do not really address the consequences of such a belief. Of course you have some awareness of what these are. That's why you tell us that although when it comes to biology you are a strict Darwinianist, when it comes to politics, society etc you cannot go that route. Social Darwinianism would bring Hell on earth. I agree with your conclusions – I just find it difficult to follow the logic.

Over the next few weeks I want to write a letter in response to each of your chapters. As you correctly point out each of them deals with issues that are fundamental to our existence, meaning and well being as humans. But let me finish off this introductory letter by looking at a couple of other things you state in your own introduction.

You state that your book is for those who have been brought up in a particular religious faith and now either no longer believe it, or are unhappy in it and want out. You want to raise the consciousness of such people to the extent that they can realise that they can get out. Do you really think that people are that stupid? Do most people not already know that is perfectly possible to leave a religion and not suffer any significant social consequences – at least in non-Islamic countries? I was brought up in a religious home and knew from a very young age that not only was it possible to leave, but that for many people it would be considered normal. Indeed none of my four siblings currently attend Church. In Evangelical Christian terms they would be considered 'backslidden'. But perhaps you are right – maybe they have been raised to a higher consciousness first? I fought my own battles so that I could be free to think for myself. But it was not just, nor even primarily, against the religious teachings of my parents or others (and I did fight against them), but also the patronising expectations of teachers, media and others who just assumed that the only reason anyone would be religious was because of parental influence, brainwashing and a weak mind. You know the real relief came when I realised I could be a Christian and think for myself and seek to make a difference in the world. And that I did not have to buy into the all the quirks and cultural things of religious groups, nor the fundamentalism of the secularists who just knew that they were right.

I cannot think of a single career option in Britain where being an atheist would place you at a disadvantage (unless you are thinking of becoming a bishop – although given the recent history of men like Holloway that does also appear to be a career option for atheists). However there are many people for whom admitting they are 'religious' is a severe block to their career and life. Those who seek to be Christian politicians, singers, businessmen, teachers and social workers often face significant prejudice and irrational fear. It is sometimes advantageous to deny one's faith or even to leave it. Being a Christian is more often than not a stumbling block to one's chosen career path, rather than the other way around.

Of course there are those who belong to cults who exercise a form of mind control tantamount to brain washing but surely even you would not argue that every religious person is in that category – imprisoned in the snare of their own religion until the good knight, Sir Richard Dawkins, rides to their rescue and sets them free?! You seem to think that anyone who is religious is actually at a lower level of consciousness and needs to be set free by becoming an atheist. Of course you offer no empirical evidence for this. Like much of the book it is a presupposition (even a prejudice) which does not appear to be founded on anything other than you would like it to be so. Have you ever thought that there might be many others who are in the opposite position – brought up in an atheistic secular society and discovering that they can actually believe in God? Would you give them the freedom to do so? What would you do if your daughter turned out to be a Bible believing Christian? Would you disown her? Would you even allow her that choice? Or have you done your best to inoculate her against the virus of religion? I remember one young man, highly intelligent, who came to a Christianity Explored group. When he was asked his religious position he said 'I'm an atheist, but I'm beginning to have my doubts'. I laughed. A backslidden atheist! I thought that was quite neat. Maybe there are a lot more of them than you think. You ought to be careful about the raising of consciousness – maybe people will become tired of your modernist certainties and instead find refuge in the clear fresh air of Jesus Christ!

I also smiled when I read your complaint that atheists were persecuted and misunderstood. Apparently you are the new 'gays' who need to 'come out'. Forgive me for saying this but I had not noticed that atheists were particularly silent or poorly represented in British society (or even American). In Britain all our government institutions, media outlets and educational establishments are primarily secularist. The National Secular Society or the British Humanists get a far bigger exposure than the vast majority of Christian churches – despite the fact that most secular societies could fit their members into a phone box. Even when the Prime Minister is asked a relatively innocuous question about whether he prays, his media minder Mr Campbell felt compelled to point out 'we don't do God'. Atheism and secularism are without doubt the prevailing philosophies of those who consider themselves the elite.

You were given the immense privilege of having editorial control of your own TV series 'The Root of all Evil'. Can you tell me when Channel 4 or even the BBC last gave an evangelical Christian the opportunity to produce a film demonstrating the evils of secularism? Do you not think that in an open and democratic society when you are allowed to make a 'documentary' attacking whole groups of people that they should at least be allowed some right of reply? Of course that is not going to happen – because as you well know, those who are primarily in charge of our media outlets are those who share many of your presuppositions and prefer to make programmes which present Christians as either weak ineffective Anglican vicars, or tub thumping American Right Wing Evangelists who want to hang gays. Anything other than this simplistic view would be wrong. It is propaganda – not truth, not reason, not debate and most certainly not fair.

A few weeks ago it was reported that there was a meeting of BBC Executives where some had the gall to challenge the prevailing BBC philosophy. At that meeting it was admitted that the policy of the BBC was that secularism was the only philosophy to which others must eventually come. In other words other philosophies and belief systems can be tolerated but they must never be allowed any real say in the BBC. Some had the audaciousness to suggest that perhaps the BBC should recognise that secularism was a philosophy and not the philosophy. I hope that you will support such pluralistic open-mindedness.

But I suspect that you have written your book, not because atheists are a persecuted minority needing to come out of the closet, but rather because the atheist hegemony is now being challenged from all sides. In fact, having had a century of elitist domination and control many in the Western World are beginning to wake up to the fact that the secular emperor has no clothes. The 20th Century can truly be called the Failed Atheist Century. Can I recommend that you read an excellent book on this subject, written by one of your Oxford colleagues Niall Ferguson, The War of the World (History's Age of Hatred)? He shares your evolutionary secularist presuppositions but his account of the 20th Century is a stunning indictment of the failure of secularism and 'science' to bring peace on earth.

Your book comes across as a desperate attempt to shore up secularism's crumbling defences. To that extent it reminds me a lot of some of us in the Church, who faced with what seems to be overwhelming odds and staring defeat in the face, sometimes issue evangelistic tracts, articles and books which rather than really being aimed at the conversion of unbelievers are really designed to shore up the faith of the faithful. The God Delusion fits nicely into that category. I am sure you will delight your disciples, such as Philip Pullman, establishing what they already believe, but I very much doubt you will make any impact on others who are less fixed in their opinions and who really are seekers after truth. What I do appreciate about what you say is that, unlike the cowards and the lazy who want to deny its existence, you admit that there is such a thing as truth. You may laugh at the idea that the truth is ultimately found in Jesus Christ. However I remain an optimist. I believe not only in truth but also in the power of God and his Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to even the darkest mind. So there is still hope for us both,

Yours etc

David Robertson

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101. Comment #6131 by Jenna on November 12, 2006 at 7:08 pm

Dear Jack Sparrow,
If you're so concerned about evidence (which we all should be) then why, since it is your belief (assuming that you're Christian) that all nonbelievers will go to hell, doesn't God Himself (not Jesus, not some prophet, but the Big Guy Himself) come down and annouce to the world what is the true faith and that He really is everything that the Bible says that He is? Right now, honestly, there is no more evidence to support the God of the Bible than there is to support the Gods of ancient Greeks or Romans. I too have my personnal doubts about spontaneous beginning of the universe. I am open to the concept of a creative force that threw everything into motion. However, as Prof. Dawkins points out, if one believes that the universe is too complicated to exist without a creator then you must admit that any being who could create something so complex must have a creator Himself. Personnally, not to insult you, I find literal belief in myths three thousand years old to be much more naive than exploring scientific concepts with an open mind and finding some truth there. Scientists do not know everything about creation and evolution, nor do theologians. The difference between the two is that scientists are willing to admit their ignorance and work to discover what they do not know while the theologians are perfectly content and even revel in their ignorance. Jenna

102. Comment #6150 by Randy Ping on November 12, 2006 at 10:07 pm

Mark, you are so much more patient and polite than I am capable of being with a wanton fool. I salute you.

103. Comment #6151 by Anonymous on November 12, 2006 at 10:28 pm

It would help arguments to be more credible if folk could take the time to get basic facts right.

David has been referred to several times as Mr Robinson when his name is Robertson. This simple mistake suggests that some have not even read his original article in any depth and therefore can not be clear of what they are arguing against.

Terri clearly states that he is not a christian yet Billy (201) claims 'I know a few christians like you'.

Come on people if you want to be taken seriously you need to raise the standard! Discussion involves listening as well as talking. Otherwise you are guilty of the arrogance so many of you claim Mr Robertson diasplays.

104. Comment #6185 by Aussie on November 13, 2006 at 3:28 am

David,

10 out of 10 for stamina and persistence.

Sorry I could not keep my promise to give you some assistance. This antipodean time zone is a bit of a handicap. Anyway you seem to be doing quite well on your own.

However, careful you don't end up with repetitive strain injury - not only in the upper limbs but also in the brain.

When you need a break from all this you are welcome to drop in to my house for some tea and cakes but make sure your wear your carefully polished shoes. I would also be interested to listen to one of your sermons at some stage.

Don't be overly concerned at the level of anger that you have correctly observed in my fellow atheists. In common with other people subjected to trauma a significant number of them are recovering from severe psychological damage inflicted by encounters with more extreme versions of "Christianity" which I am sure you abhor as much as I do.

I was one of the more fortunate recipients of a fairly mild religious education that I look back on now as not being entirely negative. Strangely I have even developed an ongoing interest in the history of the early Christian church.

Successful people have always fascinated me and no matter what you believe you have to acknowledge that Jesus was perhaps the most successful person who ever existed (or didn't exist). What I am intrigued about is why he was so successful. Was it that the whole Jesus story was inherently such a good yarn or was it that his marketing department over the succeeding few centuries developed a winning recipe that made it so successful.

Perhaps there is something there that we could learn.

105. Comment #6194 by saneatheist on November 13, 2006 at 4:20 am

I keep seeing references in this debate to "fundamentalist Atheists", if the people making this referernce would check their dictionary, you will see that this is an oxymoron,
As is "religious education".

David Robertson said in an earlier post that religion was on the rise, well not where I live i'm pleased to say.
There are more derelict Churches/Kirks here than anywhere else in Britain, obviously people here must have been religious at some time, but then saw the light; you can't drive more than three or four miles without seeing a delapidated god house.

I live in a comunity of 300 people, the Kirk is a few hundred yards down the road and I can tell you,when the shop opens at 3pm on sunday, there are far more cars there than there are at the Kirk for the morning service, and of the handfull of folk that do attend I would say their average age would be 70.
Does society need religion? definitely not.
Here in Shetland we have almost zero crime, granted there is a little bit of trouble in Lerwick on Saturday nights, but there is no mugging, no housbreaking, there has never been a single case of car theft, and as far as I know I don't think there has ever been a murder.
All this in a community that mostly rejects religion.
Also, there are no faith schools here, which is probably the best thing of all.

106. Comment #6197 by Paul on November 13, 2006 at 4:30 am

David Robertson: This is either because he wants to cop out or because he believes not only that evolution is true but also that evolution disproves God. The first is a scientific statement that surely should be up for discussion – the latter is a statement that I think is untrue.

Paul: The former is always up for discussion, that is how science works. However, in terms of evidence, evolution is one of the most strongly supported scientific theories that we have, and so far no plausible challenging theories have been put forward (ID is not a scientific theory).

Turning to the latter point, Dawkins doesn't say that evolution disproves God, only that it is another factor that makes God very unlikely. It is impossible to disprove God, as Dawkins states repeatedly, often citing Russell's teapot and the flying spaghetti monster as similarly unlikely.

David Robertson: And I think Dawkins refusal to allow that to be questioned is a cop out, cowardly and insufficient. But it please his disciples. (although not all atheists who find his mocking, confrontational and fundamentalist style a little embarrassing).

Paul: The problem with proposing evolution in a debate with a creationist is that some of the theory and supporting proofs can be hard to explain succintly to a non-technical (and usually polarised) audience. Creationists bring up false disproofs such as bombadier beetles, flagella, dates of fossils, etc because they are quick points to make, and sound convincing to the uninitiated. The debunking of these falsehoods requires the audience to understand basic evolutionary theory, radiometric dating, etc. As the pro-creationist side of the usual audiences for these debates tend not to have read anything on evolution besides "monkeys grew up", answers must be long winded and often lose the audience before getting to the point.

The whole aim of the ID lobby is for ID to be seen as a plausible alternative to evolution, and ID vs evolution debates propagate this view. Dawkins and others are right not to allow themselves to be used in this way.

107. Comment #6198 by oj on November 13, 2006 at 4:31 am

David Robertson,

I asked you a question about evolution. (120. Comment #5958)
Maybe you overlooked it, so here it is again:

How do you look at Darwin and the theory of evolution ?

Kind regards,

Ole

108. Comment #6201 by saneatheist on November 13, 2006 at 5:14 am

I'm still waiting for a response from Mr Robertson; To this post from William.
Comment No 5795.
JESUS LIED ABOUT PRAYER:

>>John 14:13-14 "And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it." <<

>>John 16:23-24 "On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you. Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete."<<

>>Matthew 21:21-22 "And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

109. Comment #6203 by Karen on November 13, 2006 at 5:33 am

This sort of commentary completely embodies the irrational, sick mind that often comes from theism. 'Nuff said!

110. Comment #6205 by Steve on November 13, 2006 at 6:02 am

It is irrelevant what Jesus said if he never existed. Why are you even discussing what is said in the Bible?

Even if good evidence for Yahweh/Jesus/whatever's existence were forthcoming I would still have nothing to do with him. I'd rather burn.

111. Comment #6219 by Steve on November 13, 2006 at 8:22 am

"I'd rather burn" is not an anti-theistic argument, it is a non-issue. We haven't got past first base here, with no good reason to believe in the existence of the "old book" god there is no need to worry about whether I accept him or not.

There is no good reason to believe in the old book god if the old book is itself such rubbish. If it were written by whatever created the Universe (if anything did) it would be similar in nature to the created world, i.e. rational, consistent, verifiable etc.

Things created by the same agency resemble each other.

112. Comment #6226 by CF1 on November 13, 2006 at 9:14 am

Yorker: I share your feelings that you posted (on previous page). I think it was Robert Fulghum who said: "Ever notice how those who are eager to tell you about their religous beliefs have no interest in hearing about yours?"

I too have tasted the frustration of trying to reason with christians, but I'm starting to wonder now if we are expecting too much. Perhaps we should think of it as just "planting seeds".

I didn't drop my silly, childish christian beliefs overnight, it took many experiences, conversations, thoughts, books, etc, to wake up.

113. Comment #6228 by saneatheist on November 13, 2006 at 9:56 am

Quote To sumarise, japan (secular) lot less murder than god bothering USA Unquote.

The trouble with religious nuts, is they think they can do anything they like so long as they say sorry to the sky fairy, they will be forgiven.
If young men that strap bombs to their bodies realized they were only going to spread their bits all over the place,and not go to a paradise full of eager virgins, then they wouldn't doit WOULD THEY?

114. Comment #6237 by Bitterman on November 13, 2006 at 10:49 am

"I'm afraid that you have fallen into the trap of assuming that science and faith in Jesus are de facto opposed. This is not the case. Any more than cooking and faith in Jesus are opposed. You can cook a good meal and not be a Christian, you can be a good scientist and not be a Christian. But you can also be a good scientist and a Christian."

Science has peeled away a lot of the reasons for belief David. In my case enough for belief to no longer be possible. In the future I suspect more of the fanciful scaffolding will be pulled down. In that situation will it still be possible to remain both a scientist and a Christian?

115. Comment #6238 by Anonymous on November 13, 2006 at 10:56 am

David responds to a question of mine as follows:

You wrote "By the way, David, how do you explain the cannibalistic part of your religion: eating the flesh and drinking the blood of your god. Don't try to weasel out of this by saying it's symbolic. Even if it is, it's still pretty disgusting, don't you think?" - I find it fascinating how history repeats itself – the early Christians were also accused of cannibalism. They were of course thrown to the lions. What do you want to do to me? By the way it is symbolic. Anyway what do you care? Surely we are just a bunch of molecules eating another bunch – what would be wrong with that?!"

Yes, David, we are a bunch of molecules. Is this your idea of a reductio ad absurdum zinger? Surely, YOU must think that your particular bunch of molecules is endowed with a soul. So how does your soul justify the cannibalistic practice of chomping on Jesus bits? Aren't there better ways of communing with your imagined god. And throwing you to the lions does sound like a good suggestion, although only symbolically, of course. Real lions are endangered;I would not want to upset their gastric systems.

David, you responded to another one of my posts:

"The bottom line for believers is: Reason is not a necessary element of faith." Wrong. Wrong . Wrong. The bottom line for atheists is that they must believe that reason is not a necessary element of faith. For me reason is an essential element of faith because faith must be in someone or something. And because God has made us in his image as rational and reasonable creatures. Although this board is also proving the Christian teaching that that image has become perverted and corrupted!

Your asserting that you use reason is not actually the same thing as using reason. Surely the collection of molecules that calls itself David Robertson has enough reason to realize that. Your rationales come from the bible and from what "god says." I don't remember the biblical god placing a really high premium on our ability to think; it seems that he's mostly concerned with our ability to kowtow.

And I repeat my previous question: Why use the bible as your authority? Why not use the Iliad, or Grimm's Fairy Tales, or the Story of Peter Rabbit?

116. Comment #6240 by No More Hornets on November 13, 2006 at 10:58 am

Oops.

I got so caught up in responding to David that I forgot to include my info in post 235.

Sorry, David and all.

117. Comment #6244 by Isaiah on November 13, 2006 at 11:18 am

I really do not think this debate with Robertson is going anywhere. He is severely outnumbered, and there are so many ideas floating around that he is not going to be able to satisfactorily answer (or show his inability to answer) all of them. So the situation is bad for all sides concerned.

Anyway, I think we can drop the whole "Dawkins is afraid to confront his adversaries" thing.

What if Dawkins was afraid to confront someone like McGrath in a face-to-face debate? What would that mean?

Well debates are not always won on the merit of a position's truthfulness or logic, but they are often won on the merit of ones rhetorical skill. I'm sure Dawkins would not want to have an issue he cares about this much misrepresented by a botched PR session.

So is Dawkins trying to silence his opponents? Is he in some state of denial? Hiding the facts? Look around, he has three articles called "The Dawkins' Delusion" on his very own website. If someone like McGrath had something coherent and damning to say about "Dawkins' Delusion," he had an entire article to express himself in a convincing and logical manner. The fact that Dawkins is willing to post McGrath's article here shows that Dawkins is not all that impressed with his arguments anyway.

Why would someone want to waist their time debating an OEC anyway? They have nothing to bring to the table, and their position is unfalsifiable. If you demonstrate that the foundation of their Christian faith (The Bible) is scientifically and morally flawed, then they tell you that you are interpreting the Bible wrong, you are Bible illiterate, and that the Bible is not meant to be taken literally during that one particular passage. Or they are going to begin some tired "regression" argument (Yet again, unfalsifiable), plugging a Bronze Age myth into the unknown.

Until you people actually have some sort of empirical evidence for the supernatural (I pray to Allah for fire in test tube A, and fire appears in test tube A…), I do not see where you can get off calling Atheists irrational…

118. Comment #6245 by Mike on November 13, 2006 at 11:27 am

Finlay and David Robertson,
You both have a personal relationship with god and, I presume Jesus. You are therefore convinced of of his reality to you even if you struggle with the problems of the trinity. Neither of you can however provide any objective evidence for that relationship or for your particualr brand of religion. This is the central point of Richard Dawkins current book.

Dawkins is at pains to point out that one cannot prove a negative but goes to considerable lengths to explain the improbability of a divine entity. He also provides persuasive evidence that blind belief in the subjective and unprovable is potentially dangerous to ourseles and society.

One can readily explain the mechanism for the general physiology of the 'relationship' you describe. It is a product of the workings of the brain. There is some interesting work coming out which demonstrates that religious experience. love and some other strong emotions are associatied with marked activity in the temporal lobes of the brain. Temporal lobe epilepsy is caused by overactivity of this part of the cortex and is also associated with religious experiences.

The brain is just like the computer I am using at this moment but with very many gigabytes more power. Our emotions and thoughts are then products of our 'wiring' and programming. The electrical currents are generated by known chemical reactions. The product being pecieved in our conciousness, cf the computer screen.

The main difference between religious revelation and science is that the latter is independent of this subjectivity and is the result of objective evidence. It is also prone to change as further evidence is obtained,

119. Comment #6247 by Anonymous on November 13, 2006 at 11:35 am

This is a good little snippet I've borrowed from another site (evilbible.com)

"When I was young, I used to pray every night for a new bike; I never got one, so I stole one and asked god to forgive me".

120. Comment #6256 by No More Hornets on November 13, 2006 at 12:14 pm

Isaiah:

Everything you say is correct. I've actually expressed a similar opinion earlier.

However, I do believe I understand why so many of us are spending our time confronting David.

It's entertaining. For those of us in the U.S., at least, we don't get many opportunities to debate with non-fundamentalists. The so-called religious left often works politically with atheists, and our shared goals of continued separation of church and state make many of us (not me, however, as you may have guessed)overly polite with one another. Here on this website, on the other hand, we have a chance to be as snide --on both sides -- as we'd like. As far as sarcasm goes, David gives as good as he gets.

I think we should give him lots of credit for steadfastness in believing that he can change minds. Most of us atheists realize that he can't. Nor can we, for that matter. But in this thread, at least, we are all rubbing our hands in glee at the rare chance to confront -- in words, sometimes even impolite ones -- a person with conflicting beliefs.

And there's another, perhaps more important reason for the continuation of this thread. To repeat a truism that has been stated many times above: It is still relatively rare to find a professed atheist in Christian America. Yet, Dawkins's book is a best-seller here. Other writers (like Dennett and Harris, for example) have also published thoughtful volumes propounding atheism. Susan Jacoby and Jennifer Hecht gave us histories of Freethinkers and Doubt," emphasizing the fact that there's a long tradition of nonbelief. We are slowly becoming a vocal minority -- looked down on as quaint or quirky, to be sure -- but we are getting our ideas out there. Every voice counts. While I'm confident that we can't change the minds of people like David Robertson, who have bought into the god culture, we may at least show some nascent or timid atheists that they're not alone.

And, finally, let's face it: any theocrat who occupies him- or herself with responding to all of our arguments is probably too busy to fly a plane into a building.

121. Comment #6261 by G Bile on November 13, 2006 at 12:27 pm

One could take the position that one should not be concerned with what others do in their Sing and Pray Club (church), Bow and Pray Club (mosque), Shake and Pray Club (synagoge), or where-ever. As long as they don't harm anyone with that behavior, who should care? But, like Dawkins and also Harris state, they DO hurt others, and very much on the basis of their Club-rules.
Mr. Robertson actually reads our responses and answers them to. I appreciate this very much because something like a real discussion is going on here.
So I wonder whether Mr. Robertson has an opinion on the matter of 'Man as a sinner'.
The Christian 'package deal', as far as I understand, goes like this: Adam and Eve, freshly created, became sinners (by eating an apple !?). This was real bad, so not only they had to move, but they had to wear clothes as well. And: all of their offspring (by default) became sinners too! So now every human being, 80 years, 40 years or ONE DAY old is a sinner. Sinners are not worthy of going to heaven, where they would be reunited with their loved-ones and live (be ?) happily forever (and ever and ever and ....). That sounds tough. So Jesus showed up, got crucified, and provided a means for redemption. Join the cause and Up you go.
Christians take this very seriously. One problem they have with evolution is that there is no Adam and Eve this way, so no apple-eating, no sin (unfortunately the clothes did actually make it). This would make Christ appearance rather inconsequential. Of course this has been repaired by explanations, which perhaps only theologians can understand and the 'Sin-circle' is still very much believed in.
Now the serious part of my comment: It is my opinion that considering human beings, from day 1, as a sinner is an inexcusable insult to humanity. Nobody is born as a sinner, and most people will NOT become one during their lifetime. Maintaining this name-calling in religious talk hurts people, impaires their wellbeing and degrades them in an unwarranted way. So I think that Dawkins and many others are right in their questioning of religion on basis of the apparent harm that they do.
Mr Robertson ... ??

122. Comment #6274 by Anonymous on November 13, 2006 at 1:01 pm

He's stupid man

123. Comment #6294 by Fedler on November 13, 2006 at 2:05 pm

I, also, think this thread has become too negative, from both sides.

However, Mr. Robertson states in comment #212 that "My article is a letter review of the introduction to The God Delusion." I have to admit I was interested in following this thread, specifically what Mr. Robertson had to say, but once I read that, my heart sank. It frustrates me that we've wasted a lot of time "debating" (sometimes rather negatively) with Mr. Robertson, who never even read the book. I think some good dialogue (not shouting) has been exchanged and much could be learned from what has been written. I haven't felt compelled to enter it myself since I don't feel I can contribute scholarly with some of the specific points being raised (I'm more of a "big brush stroke" kind of person). I've struggled with my religion ever since my dad was killed a year ago by a drunk driver and I've struggled with "finding comfort" through god (finding meaning for my dad's accident, etc.), but I'm beginning to feel if I take 'god' out of the equation, his death becomes easier to accept. I came to this site hoping to read some guidance that may help me toss off the shackles of religion, and I think I have to an extent. However, for me it takes away some of the legitimacy of this particular thread knowing one side has not read the book.

124. Comment #6296 by Anonymous on November 13, 2006 at 2:11 pm

Re: bibles in hotel rooms. The actor Ian McKellan has gone on record as saying that if he is ever in a hotel room that has a Gideon bible in it, then he rips out the pages bearing homophobic texts - Leviticus and stuff like that.

McKellan is gay of course.

Actually, rather than removing it, or censoring it McKellan style, a case can actually be made for leaving flyers in it containing info from sites like www.skepticsannotatedbible.com Now theres a fascinating website for those that dont know of it!

Almost as good as www.landoverbaptist.org (possibly the funniest place on the internet....)

125. Comment #6299 by oj on November 13, 2006 at 2:16 pm

David Robertson,

Sorry , I overlooked your answer to me. Have read it now. Here are some comments:

You said: I do believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient.

I see, but do you find any evidence in the text that God is what you say?

If you read the bible as book and not as a scripture, you should see that nothing in it indicate any omniscience. All text indicate that it was written a long time ago by ordinary men (no women writer there).

Imagine if the bible had given the ratio of Pi to 3.14159265 instead of 3.1?
(The Egyptians had approximated Pi to a few decimal places centuries before the bible was written!!)

Then you say: I know very little about the theory of evolution and cannot really judge.

Ok, maybe you should do something about that?

Btw, here is a funny history from my own family. In the late 1800 an ancestor of mine was very interested in Darwin's theory. He bought "The Origin of the Species" and studied it. There was no other he could discuss it with. But at one time he met a man that in some sentences revealed that he knew about Darwin. My anchestor told this man that he had the book. "You must never tell it to anyone!" said the other man. That was the "Zeitgeist" in the North of Norway in the late 1800. Luckily things have changed.

Btw, David, you can find Darwin online here: http://darwin-online.org.uk/

And Dawkins book "The Selfish Gene" is available in a new edition from online bookstores like Amazone etc.

Regards and
good luck with studying the evolution theory!

Ole

126. Comment #6304 by Fedler on November 13, 2006 at 2:37 pm

Thanks, Alex. I, too, have always had doubts I always brushed aside, as if they were someone else's problem. But with my dad's accident, someone else's problem suddenly became my religious crossroads. For me it wasn't so much "Why has god allowed/caused this to happen?", but of a matter of free choice. Thinking of all the myriad of things that had to happen that night in order to get my dad at that intersection at exactly the wrong time, how could this have been a matter of choice, specifically, of 'god's will'? And to say things happened for a reason, implies a conscious decision by someone/something to teach me something by way of my dad being killed. Reason needs to flow FROM someone/something. If god is the kind of being who kills people in order to have some other people learn something, then that's the kind of god I want on my side. That's what started by year-long (so far) struggle with my religion. I've become quite the bookworm this past year reading various books by Dawkins, Sam Harris and others (including their most staunch objectors, aka Michael Behe). I'm currently reading Darwin's On the Origins of Species to get a feel for where the majority of this came from. It's hard reading, but illuminating.

127. Comment #6306 by Fedler on November 13, 2006 at 2:54 pm

Sorry, I meant to say "If god is the kind of being who kills people in order to have some other people learn something, then that's NOT the kind of god I want on my side."

Damn fat fingers!

128. Comment #6307 by Riley on November 13, 2006 at 3:00 pm

David,

Retort 1:[David Robertson wrote:] "Dawkins is a fundamentalist because in effect he does not allow that any other position than his own could possibly be reasonable. "

Dawkins does not allow that any another position which is lacking the support of scientifically valid evidence and reason, could possibly be reasonable. This is the very definition of what "reasonable" is.

In this sense, he is fundamentalist in his insistance to science and reason, but here the use of the term "fundamantalist" is an oxymoron, since the very definition of "fundamentalism" is assering something as true even when evidence and/or reason suggests otherwise.

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Retort 2:
[David Robertson wrote:] "The more I go on the more I realize that he is behaving like [a fundamentalist] – writing books for the benefit of his own followers, seeking to win people to the cause, [etc . . .]"

I understand where you are comming from, and I don't want to debate semantics, but this makes Dawkins "evangelical", not "fundamentalist".

In the same way that I would not wish to confuse "secular" with "atheism", I believe it unfair to confuse "evangalism" with "fundamentalism" (even though it may be true that most evengelicals are also fundamnetailsts).

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Retort 3:
[David Robertson wrote:] "[...]I have been involved with many debates and know the score. What Dawkins does in Lynchburg is not a debate nor an engagement with people.[...] "

You make excellent observations here. But they are characteristically different from the portrayal you make of Dawkins in your article.

In your article, you do not criticize Dawkins for refusing to participate in formal debates. You claim Dawkins refuses to even "discuss with " those who would be stupid enough to disagree" with him.

The Lynchburgh Virginia audience had the opportunity, and often took advantage of it, to ask follow-up questions to the answers that Dawkins' gave (how can you claim with integrity that they didn't ?). Say what you want about Liberty 'Univiersity' but its debate teams are arguably the best in the United States (famously competing and beating teams from Harvard and Yale). Formal debate is what this school lives for, and while this wasn;t a formal deabte in Lynchburgh, you should not doubt for one second that the students and faculty that showed up from Liberty, took ample time to prepare and compare notes about the questions and follow-up questions they would ask. Easily mocked you say? These people are representative of millions of evangelicals in the United States - in fact as memebers of Liberty, they are arguably among the best and brightest of the group.

You make Dawkins sound like he insulates himself from criticism and his critics, which from what I observe, couldn't be further from the truth. If he were, he would have steered his book tour away from Liberty University, instead of directly toward it.

Why doesn't Dawkins debate you? My guess, is that if Dawkins were to debate someone, no matter what the subject, the most basic first requirement would be that each side of the debate present scientifically valid evidence to be debated.

It is a non-starter to present the the super-natural as evidence. The super-natural, is by its nature not verifiable and as such can not be debated.

This is should be considered the primary reason why he doesn't formally debate you or anyone else on matters of faith. The other reasons you state for why he doesn't debate are additional negative implications he wishes to avoid; for you to site those anselary reasons without siting the primary reason, is a serious oversight on your part.

Since you describe his unwillingness to formally debate you and others as a key criticism, in the future I would expect that you will include this essential point among your other characterizations of Dawkins' reasons for not formally debating you or others.

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Retort 4:
[David Robertson wrote:] Yes – faith without reason and evidence is dangerous and stupid. I would totally agree with that.

I'm very very happy to hear you agree. I know some who would preach that faith requires abandoning reason.

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Retort 5:[David Robertson wrote:] Interesting that you think secularism and atheism are entirely unconnected. I must ask the National Secular Society in Britain why they then promote only atheism.

No doubt groups can be (and often are), both secular and atheist. They can also be secular and Christian as is Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, whose Executive Director is a Christian minister.
see: Retort 2

No doubt, many (most?) Christian organizations hate to see secularism in places where it matters (like government and media) because secularism requires a neutral position, a "we don't know" default position on matters of faith - instead of an uncritical acceptance toward the faith of their choice, which so many of them are accustomed (at least in the U.S.).

Thank god for the meager amount of secularism(neutrality) that does exists.


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Retort 6:[David Robertson wrote:] I have deliberately tried not to [cherry pick convenient facts]. Which is why I have spent so many hours going through all this stuff. Please let me know where I have gone wrong and which inconvenient facts I have ignored.

Ignoring my list of BBC programs provided me my first clue that you must be cherry picking your facts.

But, admittedly, it's intrinsically difficult for me to point out the facts that you have cherry picked, because you don't actually present many facts to back up your statements. I assume you to be an honest person and so I also assume that you do gather facts before forming your conclusions. However, since the overwhelming majority of the facts I and others have collected and presented on this board undermine nearly all of your assertions, I assume that you must be cherry picking.

Here are two of the most blatant examples of factual claims you have made:
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Faulty Factual Claim #1:"the BBC would not allow for one minute anyone to make a programme defending the existence of God". This, simple claim, is made in addition to your very lengthy general characterization of BBC programming as being unfairly skewed in favor of atheism.

I wasn't sure myself (being from the U.S.), so I took about 5 minutes online and checked the BBC programming guuide. This will be my third time siting what I found:

The BBC Presents!: "Humphrys in Search of God": a multipart series containing several hours of leading religious figures defending the existance of God to an atheist."

But for those who want to dispose of the secular BBC approach altogether in favor of some full-on "Jesus is Lord!" affirmation, there seems to be no shortage of it on BBC programming:


"In Praise of God", seems to jump straight past the question of God to the praising of Him!!

"Unitarians explain their faith" . . . more of the faithful defending the existance of their version of God maybe ?

"Sunday Worship" this doesn't sound like a documentary ABOUT worship does it? my guess is, it's the actual worship itself.

"Prayer for the Day" day after day after day . . . how long do you suppose this type of programming has run on the BBC? My guess: years and years and years.



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Faulty Factual Claim #2 Atheists are not "particularly silent or poorly represented in British society (or even American)". Far from it, you claim that there exists an "atheist hegemony".

I can't speak much for the British society, but Atheists in American society, according to a recent poll (http://www.asanet.org/page.ww?section=Press&name=Atheists+Are+Distrusted), are more "distrusted" than any other minority group, including gays. We wish we could be possessing the relative hegemony commanded by those lucky enough to be gay in America. Unlike gays: in the U.S., there is not a single polititian in higher office that dares to publicly express even thoughtful doubt about the existence or non-existance of god.

It's worth repeating again the 1987 quote from then incumbent Vice President George H. W. Bush, during his successful campaign to be the 41st Preident of the United States, and also not that since 1987, attitudes toward atheism have gotten worse in the U.S. :
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."


Add to these faulty factual assertions about Dawkins being unwiling to "discuss" (your word) matters with people that disagree with him (does he shun discussion with the Bishop of Catebury?), and your unsupported presumption that atheism is an essential part of secularism (despite the existence of numerous prominent secular organizations that are run by Christians and other theists - most notably: Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Lead by a Christian minister, it is an organization founded in no small part by religious leaders from minority faiths (Jews, Hindus, Muslims, and small Christian sects) who organized themselves fro the sole purpose of promoting secularism in the U.S.).



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129. Comment #6309 by Jonathan Dore on November 13, 2006 at 3:16 pm

David

Since you're exercised by RD's refusal to debate, here's an article he wrote giving a fuller statement of his stance on the subject: http://pages.sbcglobal.net/amun_ra/

A later version of the article, including his draft of the joint letter he proposed publishing with Stephen Gould to outline his reasons publicly, can be found in "A Devil's Chaplain".

130. Comment #6311 by saneatheist on November 13, 2006 at 3:20 pm

I have just recieved this from an aquaintance in Glasgow who obviousley knows of this guy, so I will take no further part in this debate.

"That David Robertson is as daft as a brush. I'm amazed he gets so many letters published in the papers."

131. Comment #6312 by Anonymous on November 13, 2006 at 3:22 pm

Fedler, I confess to having only made several false starts with the Origin. It is hard reading, although its just a matter of Victorian style rather than any inherent difficulty in the ideas portrayed. The Voyage of the Beagle, by the way, is a much easier read. For those interested in the development of Darwin's thought, Janet Browne's two volume biography is superb and may well replace Desmond and Moore's classic. There is though a lot to be said for persevering with the Origin, I guess. I note too that Janet Browne has written a wee book in the 'Books that Shook the World' series (Atlantic) that may well be worth a look. Another useful, if at times difficult book, is Antony Flew's 'Darwinian Evolution'.

The problem of suffering is, I think, too easily dismissed by some christians. It was a problem that troubled Darwin, not least when his 12 year old daughter died. Interestingly, he was troubled too by parasitism. Darwin was a bit of an expert on the liver fluke and could not see how a benevolent god could be responsible for such an obnoxious organism. The usual christian response is that death and suffering (and presumably the parasitical habits of the liver fluke) are a result of the fall. Aside from the fact that the fossil record proves that death and disease has always accompanied life, an appeal to the fall fails to answer the question, Whence the liver fluke? Are we to say parasitism did not exist until a few thousand years ago and that befor then liver flukes and their ilk lived happy and contented lives only benefitting the rest of creation suddenly somehow transforming habits when man fell? Of course, some creationists argue in precisely this way in that they would insist, for example, that tigers and other carnivores ate only grass prior to the fall. The alternative is that God created liver flukes in all their grossness and notwithstanding the bible's insistence to the contrary is ether directly or indirectly the cause of death and suffering. In another place, Mr Robertson insisted that God did not create the AIDS virus. Who did? Where did it come from? It is not sufficient to argue that 'it came about as the fall' since then either god continues to create (despite the bible's insistence that he ceased prior to this) or else the devil is responsible for the AIDS virus, i.e the devil has powers of creation, something which again would seem inadmissable in biblical terms. It seems simpler to me to just accept that death and suffering are just a fact of life, that there is no overriding purpose: we are simply the products of random events. The strength of the theory of evolution is that it is able to explain how random events can give give rise to complexity and the appearance of order. This outlook gives no comfort in the religious sense, but does help us nonetheless to come to terms with suffering and death. Death is just a fact of life; indeed, life as we experience it depends precisely on the fact of death. There is no meaning; there is no need to look for it. Our existence in this world is the result of chance and chance will take us out of it.

The other point you raise is also important, namely that many of those posting in this thread indicate little or no understanding of the theory of evolution and yet presume to critise it. As I have continued to labour, it is only once you actually begin to properly understand what Darwin was saying that you realise how radical it is - and how catastrophic for religious belief.

I wish you well in your search for answers to what are, when all is said and done, difficult questions.

Alex

132. Comment #6315 by Jonathan Dore on November 13, 2006 at 3:28 pm

OJ wrote: "...My anchestor told this man that he had the [Origin of Species]. "You must never tell it to anyone!" said the other man."

Reminds me of the priceless comment of the Bishop of Worcester's wife on hearing about "The Origin of Species" for the first time (a line that almost sounds scripted by Oscar Wilde, except it actually happened): "Let us hope it is not true -- But if it is, let us pray that it does not become generally known."

Come to think of it, that could stand as an honest precis of most fundamentalist thinking in the US today...

133. Comment #6331 by Jonathan Dore on November 13, 2006 at 4:39 pm

Gordy M

Your post 6321 is a familiar argument, easily answered. Propositions about the honesty, trustworthiness etc. of real, physical flesh-and-blood people are ones to which we bring the evidence of our senses. You judge whether someone saying "I love you" means it by assessing their actions, their attitudes towards you, the way they look at you, their tone of voice in talking to you, and how they respond to *your* tone of voice, looks, attides, actions etc. In other words, you rely on *evidence*. Because these are real, flesh-and-blood people, this evidence is actually available to your senses, and if tested over a long enough time, for someone you spend a lot of time with, it is very hard to get such judgements wrong. For the same reason, the evidence is also available to other people, and their assessments can be a valuable check on your own.

None of this is available when talking about supposed supernatural entities such as god. Different people assign completely different, sometimes mutually contradictory, properties and characteristics to god (e.g. Mr A. thinks he loves sinners, but Mr B thinks he wants them to be painfully put to death), merely on the basis of intuitions that have no basis in the evidence of their senses, but are pure rationalizations based on the supposed authority of some particular bronze-age text. The mutual contradiction is a good hint that the being to which these characteristics are ascribed actually exists only in the heads of the people ascribing them. That is why "faith" in god means belief *without* evidence, which makes it fundamentally different from the faith in another person that you refer to in your examples, which *is* based on evidence. Likewise, the cross-checking of your perceptions against someone else's is not available when talking about "god", since you cannot point to god and say "see how he looked at/talked to me? Isn't that evidence that he loves me?" Your only sensation of god takes place, by definition, entirely within your own head, and nothing that you experience or assess there can be cross-checked by another person. Again, this is a good indication that what we are talking about is confined to our own brains and, unlike the trustworthiness of firemen, say, has no connection to a reality outside them.

For a fuller exploration of the issue, see Dawkins's essay "Good and Bad Reasons for Believing", in his book "A Devil's Chaplain".

134. Comment #6336 by Fedler on November 13, 2006 at 5:14 pm

Somewhere in TGD I believe Dawkins states something to the effect of "you don't always need to know the details of something to believe/disbelieve its basic beliefs" (I'm largely paraphrasing here. If someone wants me to look it up, I will, but I don't feel inclined to do it now). It doesn't matter what the details are when it's the basic ideas or assumptions that appear to be flawed.

135. Comment #6373 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 12:09 am

Mr Robertson on another complicated, difficult issue - the virus of faith?

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2006/07/25/newsstory8579896t0.asp

136. Comment #6374 by oj on November 14, 2006 at 12:14 am

David Robertson (and others).

An excellent guide to understanding evolution theory is this book:

Daniel C. Dennett: "Darwin's Dangerous Idea"
(Subtitle: Evolution and the Meaning of Life)

Ole

137. Comment #6378 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 12:58 am

Quote:

if you find one, run down to the reception and exlaim "I wanted to alert you that I have come across an extremely obscene book in my room, which contains genocide, incest, rape and mass murder."

ROFL!!!

Actually, theres another aspect as well. If its the King James Version, its got the word "piss" in it.

Try this:

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=piss&version1=9&searchtype=all

Bet they dont do those passages in Sunday School. Wonder why? Is it not supposed to be "inspired" and "inerrant"

2 Tim 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

ALL Scripture? Including references to "drinking piss" Yet these bible thumpers would get all upset if you said you were into watersports porn! Mind you they probably secretly watch it themselves......

138. Comment #6398 by saneatheist on November 14, 2006 at 4:11 am

Mr Robertson, you are STILL refering to Dawkins as a fundamentalist, please stop it.
Fundamentalism; A belief in the literal truth of the bible, koran, etc.

139. Comment #6406 by Fedler on November 14, 2006 at 4:50 am

Re: Comment #6388 by David Robertson

Mr. Robertson, you state:

Feeler (262) – "It frustrates me that we've wasted a lot of time "debating" (sometimes rather negatively) with Mr. Robertson, who never even read the book. "

I don't know where you got this idea from. I have read the book – at least four times."

First, it's Fedler, not Feeler. However, I was referring to your comment #212 in which you state your initial review of the TGD was a letter review of the introducrtion only. If you thought I meant the Bible, then no, that's not what I meant. I was referring to your inital review, which started this whole thread. If you now have read TGD at least four times, then thank you for your efforts.

140. Comment #6412 by Mike on November 14, 2006 at 5:34 am

Gordy M - 276

I am afraid you have missed the point of my argument and, to mix metaphors are comparing apples with oranges.

The central point is that the vast edifices of organised religion are built on a demonstrable web of subjective myths around the central improbability of an omnipotent 'being'.

I have given a little evidence of the actual nature of the religious experience some feel. You are of course right that no other individual can be certain of another's expressed love and so on. People can cheat and some more than others. If you were to read the Selfish Gene you would learn of interesting experiments and observations that other species behave very much as ours does in terms of domestic fidelity. This however has absolutely no bearing on the theory, fabric and organisation of religions.

Nor does the imperfections of medicine, which is firmly based on science. Medical and engineering gains are all based on sound objective science. There are also many more gains to be achieved as our scientific knowledge grows from new experimental evidence.

Science drives the modern world and it is all evidence based and this is THE point. Subjective emotions may make us feel good but they have little measurable impact on how a society works.

I would urge you to read both the Selfish Gene which is a vey accessible book on evolutionary science as well as TGD. The latter uses all the tools of a good author to make his points about religion. But try and read it objectively and without emotion though is is attacking the position I presume you hold.

I migh add that. like Dawkins, I was reared an Anglican but gave it up when I realised it was all based on mirrors, myth and shadows

141. Comment #6417 by Fedler on November 14, 2006 at 6:13 am

There appears to be an inherent flaw in this thread, which is that believers and nonbelievers have different definitions of 'proof' or 'evidence'. Whereas believers seem to consider 'evidence' of a more metaphysical nature, nonbelievers define 'evidence' as that gained through the traditional scientific method. Therein lies the critical flaw. Until the terms are defined equally to both sides, the quibbling over details is less legit. I'm at work now so I can't expand this further, but that seems to be vital to have true understanding happening on either side of the issue.

142. Comment #6426 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 7:16 am

Fedler, thats fair comment. I'm not at work today, so here's my own take.

I think that both types of evidence are apposite, that there is no dichotomy. In other words, I think we should take account not only of evidence obtained from the so-called 'hard' sciences, but also from the 'softer' disciplines such as psychology and sociology, which is something John Polokinghorne stresses in his 'Belief in God in an Age of Science'. In particlular, Polkinghorne is interested in the origin of such concepts as mind or reason, purpose, value and hope. He argues that these are characteristically human traits and that in order to understand who we are and how we got here we need to conisider these data as much a apart of the equation as, say, genetic similarities between ourselves and other species. Polkinghorne is, of course, a christian, although he does accept evolution as a valid explanation for at least some aspects of our nature and is, to that extent, a theistic evolutionist. (For this reason some of our fundi friends would repudiate his claim to be an evangelical). The question for a consistent darwinian is, Can evolution through natural selection explain the traits I mentioned, or does one need to invoke the idea of skyhooks?

A critique of the idea of mind - for Polkinghorne the fact that the universe is intelligible and appears to make some sense - is to be found in any critique of the anthropic principle, namely that it is no less probable that the universe is finely tuned to us than that we are finely tuned to it. In other words, the universe makes sense to us precisely because we could not have evolved in any other type of universe.

Perhaps more difficult to explain are humnan aspirations for meaning and the fact that as Gordy M suggests, some people at least find it difficult to live with the alleged sterility and coldness of atheism. I think there are two things that can be said (I'm sure there are plenty others that I havent thought about) First, the fact that atheism may be difficult does not mean that it is false. Conversly, of course, the fact that religion is in some sense 'easier' or more comforting does not make it true. If we want to find 'meaningful' meaning, then we would want to base it, surely, on something that is demonstrably correct rather than something we might feel a prior wish to be correct. But this doesn't answer the question, Why are we so bothered about meaning in the first place?

So secondly, Polkinghorne - and most christians, theistic evolutionist or not - would argue that our search for meaning comes from god, althought Polkinghorne does not argue that the 'evidence' of our search for meaning proves god. Rather he argues that an antecedent acceptance of the validity in belief in god makes sense of this evidence. Personally, and if I'm honest, I'm not entirely sure why we crave this meaning: it is a part of the data for which I, as yet, have no completely satisfacory answer. I think there is more to it than that religion (which deals with meaning) provides social cohesion. Others may be able to shed some light. Nonetheless, I would note two things. First of all, darwinians have provided explanations, or part explanations at least,for other uniquely human traits such as morality - traits that theists argue cannot be explained by anything other than an appeal to god. Dawkins deals with this in Chaptr 6 of TGD. Another useful resource here is Matt Ridly on The Origin of Virtue.

Secondly, I would again argue that difficulties with a theory such as evolution in relation to certain data (in this case how to explain certain psychological and sociological aspects to humanity) do not necessarily mean that the theory is seriously flawed since further reflection my yield appropriate answers. I would argue that all we can do is work with what we know to be highly probably true and empirically testable. We can demonstrate that evolution is highly probably true and we can argue that it provides an explanation for certain data that on the face of it might otherwise have needed a supernatural explanation. Again, the problem appears to be that some christians assume that darwinism does no take these kinds of questions seriously and has no answers for them. This is not the case.

Alex

143. Comment #6427 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 7:23 am

david to sane atheist:

"Is this really the standard you want us to aspire to as 'sanity'? A friend who 'obviously' (why obviously?) knows. You have heard a bit of gossip from a friend and on that basis you are going to withdraw from the discussion"

Hmmm, see where you are goming from here. I know a guy who claims to know a book written by another guy that he doesnt know. It contains unicorns, talking serpents, sea monster stomach holidays, dead people coming back to life and a talking Donkey. He lives by this book. Surely you must agree that he is mad.

144. Comment #6431 by Riley on November 14, 2006 at 8:17 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[Riley wrote:]"It is a non-starter to present the super-natural as evidence. The super-natural, is by its nature not verifiable and as such can not be debated. "
[David Robertson replied:] Nonsense. I think the supernatural is verifiable and can be a subject of debate.

Prove it. How do you even propose verifying or invalidating that which exists outside the realm of human experience?

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[David Robertson wrote:]It really does not work because of course in theory there are plenty of things that are provable but maybe not by humans and not just now.

EXACTLY!!! There is no point debating things which are beyond current human ability to prove or disprove.
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[David Robertson wrote:]The claims about the BBC still stand. Usually the religion presented on them is the most insipid and dead kind and is a real gift to atheists!

You can't defend your position as a matter of fact. You're opinion of the faith and faith practices of others has no bearing on your claim that the BBC promotes atheism and marginalizes theism (unless you are claiming these worshipers are not true theists? - is that your claim???) The facts are, measured in terms of number and frequency of programs on the BBC, unrefutable. If I'm wrong, show me the list of programs on the BBC (their frequency and number) that actively promote the non-existance of God - and we can compare. This is an opportunity to resolve a possible misunderstanding and disagreement! What a great opportunity.
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[David Robertson wrote:]I accept what you say about the difficulties of being an atheist in the US. Perhaps you will also recognize the difficulties of being a bible believing Christian in the UK?
I've never made any claims about what it is like to be a bible believing Christian in the UK. On the other hand, you have made wildly off-the-mark claims about atheism in the U.S.. So this reply of yours is a complete non-sequitor. However,given how irresponsible you are at gathering and checking your facts, I definitely wouldn't accept your characterizations about the UK based on your word alone.


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145. Comment #6447 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 9:57 am

Nate,
"you are so sure your faith is based in Reason and proof. Where? That's all an athiest wants! You have provided none"

I'll let you into a little secret, he has none. There is also no santa claus, but dont let that slip either.

eileen, Dawkins is so right about the god of the bible when he says "The God of the old testement is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homphobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."
He also promotes slavery, forces people into cannabalism and accepted the sacrifice of jephthahs daughter. What a bastard eh! The resaons xians give for justfying these atrcocities is rooted in cloud cuckoo land. People are sheep and will follow anything - depressing really

146. Comment #6452 by Jack Sparrow on November 14, 2006 at 10:14 am

Comment 385 Billy Sands "Why there is no God"

Billy,

Billy: "I am not introducing a new word. What I am saying is that they must have been made together in gen 1 because after all the other animals, the gods said let us make people (that's plural)…….the logical conclusion can only be that they were made together".
Billy: "gen 2 is very clear they were made separately, with the animals in between and not before as in gen 1"

(Just as a side issue here, Do you have a reason for rendering Elohim as "gods" in the context of gen 1 and is there a Hebrew scholar who agrees with this rendering?)

If you read Gen 1:26-30 again you should notice that v26 "Let us make man…" (man=adam NOT people and is a masculine SINGULAR noun) refers to God's purpose not the act itself. The act itself is in v27 "God created MAN in His own image, in the image of God He created HIM; male and female he created them". Maybe you could demonstrate why this rules out the order of the creation of the man and woman in Gen 2. In fact v27 puts man first and refers TO HIM TWICE BEFORE MENTIONING THE WOMAN (I'm using capitals for emphasis not volume by the way).

Gen 2 does NOT say they were made separately "with the animals in between" AS OPPOSED to Gen 1 (I use Gen 1 to designate 1:1-2:3) but it informs us as to what the LORD God did within the garden. You only see a contradiction because you refuse to recognise the different context in Gen 2 in contrast to Gen 1. Surely you agree that the creation of the animals in Gen 2 takes place WITHIN THE GARDEN and AFTER the creation of Adam but prior to the woman? Surely you also agree that in Gen 1 it takes place before the creation of the man and woman? There fore since it is crystal clear that the STATED CONTEXT is different it is impossible to demonstrate or even justify the notion of a contradiction. Only if the contexts were the same would there be an argument for a contradiction. The fact is only if one assumes that Gen 1 derives from a different source can one justify the notion of discrepancy. Your assuming a different origin and then deriving a contradiction whereas if you follow the natural progression of the text without such an assumption you obtain no contradiction.

CAN YOU PROVE THAT THE ORDER OF CREATION IN GEN 1 INHERENTLY RULES OUT A FURTHER CREATION OF THE ANIMALS IN THE GARDEN IN GEN 2?
CAN YOU DEMONSTRATE THIS BY ADHERING SOLELY TO THE PROGRESSION OF THE TWO TEXTS WITHOUT BRINGING IN ANY ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT DIFFERENT SOURCES.

"The point still stands. She did not [know] the difference between right and wrong, so it doesn't really matter what she did. Punishment was unjust. There is no case for defence".

You are wrong. Her knowledge wasn't even an issue. God said, 'Don't eat that fruit'. Did she understand that? Clearly , yes. God said, 'If you eat it your dead'. Did she understand that? Again, yes. God didn't cut them off from life for their understanding or lack of it. He judged them for disobeying a command that they did understand but which they chose to disobey anyway. In fact surely this is the point. Sin or wrongdoing is disobeying the will of God. They didn't know the difference between good and evil but they did know what 'don't eat that fruit' meant. And yet they ate it. And then they did know good and evil. I repeat God judged them for disobeying a command which they understood and therefore there is no issue of injustice. A command was given to them and the consequence of disobedience was made known to them. Yet they disobeyed. It is Adam and Eve who had no defence
(Besides God clearly has no obligation to grant everlasting life to anyone. God withheld access to life which they had no inherent right to anyway).
Note also that it was when Adam ate the fruit that it says "THEN the eyes of both of them were opened" which leads naturally to your further dispute.

"1 Tim 2:24 makes it clear that sin entered through the womans action……..I suggest you read it".

Already have so there. And I stick by what I previously said because your just being niggly. In fact you even acknowledged what I said by saying, "True, but". HA! If its "true" then there's no reason for any "but".
See also last sentence of previous point. The fact that it was on Adam's eating that their eyes were opened validates the apostles point in Romans 5.

"I'll go with the normal definition [of fruit], as I have no reason to believe otherwise".

I admit you have a point here and I'll concede this one. It probably was strained exegesis on my part. I have the outline of a response but I'll get back to you on it.

Regards, Jack

147. Comment #6461 by No More Hornets on November 14, 2006 at 11:44 am

David:

Your smug, lazy answers do not address my serious questions. I will take your responses one by one.
Again your understanding of Christianity is a bit off. We don't 'chomp on Jesus' bits'!"
How then do you explain the various substantiations, trans- and con-? What's the point of communion, which asks worshippers to partake of foodstuffs, if not for the ingesting of bits of the godhead, either real or symbolic? Why would any non-primitives want to EAT their god? And what is the final destination of the wine and wafer? Holy shit!

I don't remember the biblical god placing a really high premium on our ability to think; it seems that he's mostly concerned with our ability to kowtow. " I guess you should improve your memory. Take another look in the Bible and you will find that it teaches that we are made in the image of God with the ability to be 'logos' – logically, thinking, rational creatures. We are to question, explore and develop our minds.
My memory is fine, thanks. Saying that we are made in the image of God won't cut it, because he is not represented as a rational being. Could you give SPECIFIC examples in the bible of god saying that humans ought to think? Then, if you can find any such examples, can you compare the number of them with the number of times god says we should worship and/or follow him BLINDLY?

"And I repeat my previous question: Why use the bible as your authority? Why not use the Iliad, or Grimm's Fairy Tales, or the Story of Peter Rabbit?" Ah – the old ones are always the best ones. Why is it that some atheists repeat ad nauseum the same old clichés as though they were devastating pearls of wisdom? The answer to your question is to be found in the texts themselves, read them and I guess you will be able to work out the difference (unless of course you are just making a cheap debating point that you heard someone else make – and you really cannot distinguish between the Bible and Peter Rabbit!).
It's easy to dismiss "the old ones" without actually answering them. Perhaps YOU can work out the difference between the bible and Peter Rabbit, but I can't. So why don't you help me out? Without using the bible itself in a self-referential way, can you spell out why I should take it as a greater authority than ANY other book. As far as I'm concerned, Peter Rabbit makes much more sense because its main character is based on a real creature.

"I think we should give him lots of credit for steadfastness in believing that he can change minds." Please don't give me credit for something that is not true. I do not believe that I can change minds. I do however have this insane belief in the rationality of human beings and that somehow the truth will out.
All right, I withdraw the credit I gave you. Perhaps the only honest word in that response is "insane." Can you demonstrate your own rationality WITHOUT quoting from the bible?

148. Comment #6473 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 1:06 pm

bj

Rev Robertson gets a mention in this article - there is also a picture of him:

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2006/07/25/newsstory8579896t0.asp

Now there is actually a fascinating little connection here. That article appleared in "The Courier" (gets referred to simply as the Dundee Courier) - a fairly typical, Scottish locally based paper, an easy read with a broad appeal) Now, the Courier is owned by the publishing giant D C Thomson - Guess who the wife of the Deputy Chairman and Chief Exec of DC Thomson is?

Ans: Claire Enders, one of the Trustees of the RDF!!!!

http://richarddawkins.net/foundation,trustees

Man, this is an absoultely rivetting thread this one. I've wasted HOURS poring over it!

149. Comment #6475 by Navanax on November 14, 2006 at 1:11 pm

David Robertson. May your shit come to life an kiss you.

I'm impressed that some of the people here bother to debate this Robertson nincompoop. He is is clearly out of his mind and beyond reason and logic.

If you do debate him, stop respecting his delusions, however eloquent he puts them, and please approach him with the scorn and contempt that he deserves.

Dawkins refuses to debate this sort of weirdness because it gives the person with the sick mind the impression that there really is something to debate.

150. Comment #6480 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 1:27 pm

Billy, youre Scottish arent you? (this is just an aside, not really a lot to do with this thread, just that Courier connection) I think there are a lot of Scots on this forum... Land of John Knox and all that....

DC Thomson also publish the "People's Friend" - a story magazine for older women - well, REALLY old women. The sort of women you find in churches... Anyway, I heard that DC Thomsons policy on magazine illustrations stated that if there was ever to be a picture of a woman holding a baby, then the left hand WITH RING was to be clearly visible.....

OK, thats the light relief over, back to the cock pit, you folks...
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