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Friday, November 10, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title)

by David Robertson

UPDATE11-15-06: David Robertson has continued his discussion of The God Delusion here:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/novb06.htm

Reposted from:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/nov06.htm

Thaks to James for sending it in.

Dear Dr Dawkins,

Forgive me for writing you but I am really frustrated. You see, I read your book, The God Delusion (great title but of course it does just open itself to the rejoinder in the title above — which I am sure many others will pick up on). There was so much in it that I could identify with and yet so much that was to my mind just simply wrong. I would love to discuss it with you, or with those who are your disciples, but I'm afraid that I am not an Oxford Don, I don't have access to the media you do, and I am not part of the Establishment. Therefore it is very difficult to dialogue about these things. And of course you have stated that you do not discuss with 'fundamentalists' or those who would be stupid enough to disagree with you. Apparently you want 'intelligent' conversation and anyone who believes in revelation or supernaturalism is de facto non intelligent, therefore not worth discussing with. Given that the subject you are so vehement about is the whole question of supernaturalism and whether there is a God or not, do you not think it is kind of loading the dice to only discuss with those who already share your presuppositions?

Anyway although I do not expect you to read this, I am writing it for my own benefit and for the sake of those who having read your book, perhaps share the same frustrations, or maybe have even been influenced or feel threatened by it. Of course I realise that most people who buy your book will already be converts — they already share your faith and will be looking for reassurance or confirmation. Although your book is an evangelistic work, written with the specific intention of converting religious readers to atheists by the time they reach the end, you know as well as I do that the vast majority of people who read it will already be convinced. You are preaching to the choir. This is rather obvious even from the people who write the blurb on the jacket cover, admittedly not normally unbiased objective judges. Stephen Pinker, Brian Eno, Derren Brown and Philip Pullman all wax lyrical about your book — but then they would wouldn't they? Each of them being convinced atheists already and fairly desperate to have their particular belief system endorsed. Pullman wants your anti-faith book to be put into every faith school (nothing like wanting to indoctrinate children is there?). Eno says it is 'a book for the new millennium, one in which we may be released from lives dominated by the supernatural'. Heady stuff. But best of all is Derren Brown who affirms The God Delusion as his 'favourite book of all time'. It is 'a heroic and life-changing work'. He wants those who are 'secure and intelligent enough to see the value of questioning their beliefs will be big enough and strong enough to read this book'.

Well, I have read it. I did expect to be challenged. But actually I was very disappointed. Of course it was well written, very entertaining and passionate. But at an intellectual and logical level it really misses the mark. I'm sorry but I honestly think I could have made a better case for atheism. Most of the arguments are of sixth form school boy variety. And this from the 'one of the worlds' top three intellectuals' (as the book jacket so helpfully reminds us). Is this really the best that atheism has to offer? (Memo to self - why did I once feel so challenged by atheism?). What is disturbing about this is that your fundamentalist atheism will actually be taken seriously by some and will be used to reinforce their already prejudiced anti-religion and anti-Christian stance. Your 'arguments' will be repeated ad nauseum in newspaper letters columns, opinion pages, pubs and dinner tables throughout the land. You will forgive me saying this but it seems remarkably similar to the kind of thing that 'intellectuals' were putting out in 1930's Germany about the Jews and Judaism. Just as the Jews were responsible for all the ills in Weimar Germany, so according to your book religious people are responsible for the majority of ills in today's society. Along with John Lennon you want us to 'imagine' a world with no religion. A world which you claim would have no suicide bombers (I assume it slipped your mind that the majority of suicide attacks have been by the secular Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers?), no crusades, no 9/11, no Israeli/Palestinian wars etc. By the way John Lennon was one of my heroes and I loved Imagine. Then I grew up and realised that it took a great deal of imagination to take seriously a song which spoke of imagining a world 'with no possessions too' written by a man who lived in a mansion and had an abundance of possessions, whilst there were millions dying from lack of resources. It seems to me that your vision/imagination is almost as unrealistic as Lennon's. You want us to imagine that there is no God. And then you do not really address the consequences of such a belief. Of course you have some awareness of what these are. That's why you tell us that although when it comes to biology you are a strict Darwinianist, when it comes to politics, society etc you cannot go that route. Social Darwinianism would bring Hell on earth. I agree with your conclusions — I just find it difficult to follow the logic.

Over the next few weeks I want to write a letter in response to each of your chapters. As you correctly point out each of them deals with issues that are fundamental to our existence, meaning and well being as humans. But let me finish off this introductory letter by looking at a couple of other things you state in your own introduction.

You state that your book is for those who have been brought up in a particular religious faith and now either no longer believe it, or are unhappy in it and want out. You want to raise the consciousness of such people to the extent that they can realise that they can get out. Do you really think that people are that stupid? Do most people not already know that is perfectly possible to leave a religion and not suffer any significant social consequences — at least in non-Islamic countries? I was brought up in a religious home and knew from a very young age that not only was it possible to leave, but that for many people it would be considered normal. Indeed none of my four siblings currently attend Church. In Evangelical Christian terms they would be considered 'backslidden'. But perhaps you are right — maybe they have been raised to a higher consciousness first? I fought my own battles so that I could be free to think for myself. But it was not just, nor even primarily, against the religious teachings of my parents or others (and I did fight against them), but also the patronising expectations of teachers, media and others who just assumed that the only reason anyone would be religious was because of parental influence, brainwashing and a weak mind. You know the real relief came when I realised I could be a Christian and think for myself and seek to make a difference in the world. And that I did not have to buy into the all the quirks and cultural things of religious groups, nor the fundamentalism of the secularists who just knew that they were right.

I cannot think of a single career option in Britain where being an atheist would place you at a disadvantage (unless you are thinking of becoming a bishop — although given the recent history of men like Holloway that does also appear to be a career option for atheists). However there are many people for whom admitting they are 'religious' is a severe block to their career and life. Those who seek to be Christian politicians, singers, businessmen, teachers and social workers often face significant prejudice and irrational fear. It is sometimes advantageous to deny one's faith or even to leave it. Being a Christian is more often than not a stumbling block to one's chosen career path, rather than the other way around.

Of course there are those who belong to cults who exercise a form of mind control tantamount to brain washing but surely even you would not argue that every religious person is in that category — imprisoned in the snare of their own religion until the good knight, Sir Richard Dawkins, rides to their rescue and sets them free?! You seem to think that anyone who is religious is actually at a lower level of consciousness and needs to be set free by becoming an atheist. Of course you offer no empirical evidence for this. Like much of the book it is a presupposition (even a prejudice) which does not appear to be founded on anything other than you would like it to be so. Have you ever thought that there might be many others who are in the opposite position — brought up in an atheistic secular society and discovering that they can actually believe in God? Would you give them the freedom to do so? What would you do if your daughter turned out to be a Bible believing Christian? Would you disown her? Would you even allow her that choice? Or have you done your best to inoculate her against the virus of religion? I remember one young man, highly intelligent, who came to a Christianity Explored group. When he was asked his religious position he said 'I'm an atheist, but I'm beginning to have my doubts'. I laughed. A backslidden atheist! I thought that was quite neat. Maybe there are a lot more of them than you think. You ought to be careful about the raising of consciousness — maybe people will become tired of your modernist certainties and instead find refuge in the clear fresh air of Jesus Christ!

I also smiled when I read your complaint that atheists were persecuted and misunderstood. Apparently you are the new 'gays' who need to 'come out'. Forgive me for saying this but I had not noticed that atheists were particularly silent or poorly represented in British society (or even American). In Britain all our government institutions, media outlets and educational establishments are primarily secularist. The National Secular Society or the British Humanists get a far bigger exposure than the vast majority of Christian churches — despite the fact that most secular societies could fit their members into a phone box. Even when the Prime Minister is asked a relatively innocuous question about whether he prays, his media minder Mr Campbell felt compelled to point out 'we don't do God'. Atheism and secularism are without doubt the prevailing philosophies of those who consider themselves the elite.

You were given the immense privilege of having editorial control of your own TV series 'The Root of all Evil'. Can you tell me when Channel 4 or even the BBC last gave an evangelical Christian the opportunity to produce a film demonstrating the evils of secularism? Do you not think that in an open and democratic society when you are allowed to make a 'documentary' attacking whole groups of people that they should at least be allowed some right of reply? Of course that is not going to happen — because as you well know, those who are primarily in charge of our media outlets are those who share many of your presuppositions and prefer to make programmes which present Christians as either weak ineffective Anglican vicars, or tub thumping American Right Wing Evangelists who want to hang gays. Anything other than this simplistic view would be wrong. It is propaganda — not truth, not reason, not debate and most certainly not fair.

A few weeks ago it was reported that there was a meeting of BBC Executives where some had the gall to challenge the prevailing BBC philosophy. At that meeting it was admitted that the policy of the BBC was that secularism was the only philosophy to which others must eventually come. In other words other philosophies and belief systems can be tolerated but they must never be allowed any real say in the BBC. Some had the audaciousness to suggest that perhaps the BBC should recognise that secularism was a philosophy and not the philosophy. I hope that you will support such pluralistic open-mindedness.

But I suspect that you have written your book, not because atheists are a persecuted minority needing to come out of the closet, but rather because the atheist hegemony is now being challenged from all sides. In fact, having had a century of elitist domination and control many in the Western World are beginning to wake up to the fact that the secular emperor has no clothes. The 20th Century can truly be called the Failed Atheist Century. Can I recommend that you read an excellent book on this subject, written by one of your Oxford colleagues Niall Ferguson, The War of the World (History's Age of Hatred)? He shares your evolutionary secularist presuppositions but his account of the 20th Century is a stunning indictment of the failure of secularism and 'science' to bring peace on earth.

Your book comes across as a desperate attempt to shore up secularism's crumbling defences. To that extent it reminds me a lot of some of us in the Church, who faced with what seems to be overwhelming odds and staring defeat in the face, sometimes issue evangelistic tracts, articles and books which rather than really being aimed at the conversion of unbelievers are really designed to shore up the faith of the faithful. The God Delusion fits nicely into that category. I am sure you will delight your disciples, such as Philip Pullman, establishing what they already believe, but I very much doubt you will make any impact on others who are less fixed in their opinions and who really are seekers after truth. What I do appreciate about what you say is that, unlike the cowards and the lazy who want to deny its existence, you admit that there is such a thing as truth. You may laugh at the idea that the truth is ultimately found in Jesus Christ. However I remain an optimist. I believe not only in truth but also in the power of God and his Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to even the darkest mind. So there is still hope for us both,

Yours etc

David Robertson

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151. Comment #6487 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 1:54 pm

Billy - you're shouting again!

152. Comment #6505 by Anonymous on November 14, 2006 at 3:28 pm

oh no another shouter!

153. Comment #6506 by oj on November 14, 2006 at 3:32 pm

In Comment #6388 by David Robertson he said:

I have read the Selfish Gene and a bit of Darwin. Not convinced by either.

What do you mean by "Not convinced by either"?

If you look at the history of science you will find a lot of "not convinced by"-people. People with power like the Inquisition.

Luckily in 1859 there was no Inquisition in England when Darwin published his famous book.

But in 1632, when Galileo published Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief Systems of the World - Ptolemaic and Copernican - they were active.
As we now, the Inquisition banned the book and ordered Galileo to appear in Rome. Found guilty, Galileo was condemned to lifelong imprisonment.

David, if you invested more in trying to understand the evolution theory, maybe you then would look back on the position you now have as a kind of "Ptolemaic positon"? ... ;-)

While on the "Beagle", Darwin was quite orthodox (perhaps like your own possition now?). He returned from the voyage in 1836 and slowly from there he developed his brilliant theory.

His theory is quite easy to understand while quantum physics is not (as R.D. often say)!

Regards,

Ole

154. Comment #6568 by Jenna on November 15, 2006 at 12:13 am

To answer your question, Heatnzi, according to Christian belief if Hilter, with his dying breath, pronounced Jesus to be his saviour, yes all would be forgiven. On the other hand, someone like Gandhi who worked tirelessly for the poor is not Christian, not matter how good and ethical they are, would wind up in hell. Let me pose a question to the Christians out there: which would you prefere as your neighbour? The Christian pedophile or the atheist would volunteers for Doctors without Borders?Jenna

155. Comment #6583 by Jamie on November 15, 2006 at 2:37 am

"But I suspect that you have written your book, not because atheists are a persecuted minority needing to come out of the closet, but rather because the atheist hegemony is now being challenged from all sides. In fact, having had a century of elitist domination and control many in the Western World are beginning to wake up to the fact that the secular emperor has no clothes. The 20th Century can truly be called the Failed Atheist Century. "

Yeah right, I'm challenged - tremble tremble. It sounds like he is desperately trying to convince himself here. For his information, Musselini was a catholic, Hitler believed in the supernatural, the rise of religious fundamentalists (not just islamic). What about recruitment drives to kill for king and country - and oh yeah god. I think if I did some research into this, I would blow this statement out of the water, and no doubt find plenty of good done by secularists too. It is a trpical non thinking theistic statement. No thought put into it what soever. Maybe he will heed some comments here and realise the need to think - I hope so.
Here is a list of religious cvrime to ponder - genocide, crusades, teaching intolerance of others (very evident in this own prejudiced attack on atheists - respect to Greg btw), demeaning of women, slavery, persecution, emotional abuse (behave yourself or satan will get you kind of stuff). Please anyone, feel free to expand the list. This man is an empty vessel, and as such makes most noise. His views and methods have no bearing on rational thought at all. We should just point out the flaws in his comments, and ignore debateing with him - he does not display the capacity to reach conclusions through reason (Or if he can he has not shown it).
I think he has brought this backlash on himself. If I turned up at his church on sunday, and said that his congregation were a bunch of sheep that put more emphasis on superstition than reason. If I also said that they were brain washed followeres of a false god, and that they were ultimately responsible for all the bad in the world. I would expect a similar (or worse) response. If I turned up at his church and said these are the reasons I have for not believing in God, then I would expect a better response (I hope I would any way)

156. Comment #6586 by Jamie on November 15, 2006 at 2:46 am

Oliver, Your type of remarks are the type I was pointing out. Do not preach! give evidence! Plenty of people have believed that they were living in the end times. They were all wrong. Even the apostles and jesus thought so. Incidentally, jesus says that even he does not know when he will return, only god does.

"Sure, I would also like to live a life without God "

Again you make an assumption that infuriates atheists, and that is that we dont want god to exist. You have no evidence, and many of us have reached the conclusion through science, history and the bible that there is no god. I doubt however there is any point debating with someone like you though, you are a preacher, not a thinker

157. Comment #6603 by melisande on November 15, 2006 at 4:27 am

357. Comment #6505 by Anonymous
"oh no another shouter!"

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the memepool...

:^P

158. Comment #6615 by saneatheist on November 15, 2006 at 5:44 am

Billy Sands asks,
BTW Did you see horizon last night? bit bizzare
Yes I watched it and thought it far more probable than the god story.

159. Comment #6616 by saneatheist on November 15, 2006 at 5:47 am

Sorry, should have said plausible.

160. Comment #6651 by Jonathan Dore on November 15, 2006 at 8:50 am

Nate wrote: "Quit saying this is end timeS! By doing so you LET global warming continue, you LET genocide continue, you LET people starve to death ..." etc.

Quite. This is a point that needs to be made forcefully and clearly, again and again: people with an "endtimes" agenda are a positive menace to life on this planet, and are thus unfit to hold public office. Having such beliefs should disqualify one from positions of public responsibility.

161. Comment #6656 by Fedler on November 15, 2006 at 9:10 am

Thank you, Mr. Robertson, for ending your participation in a classy way. I look forward to your future reviews and engaging constructively going forward.

162. Comment #6663 by oj on November 15, 2006 at 9:30 am

David Robertson

Thanks for all your effort here!

It is a bit strange for me to discuss with ortodox people like you. I'm actually more used to the liberal types.

As a student I wanted to know more about religion, so I signed up for a class, even if I'm an atheist and not member of the Norwegian Church.

The professor was of the ortodox type and after some lessons he asked me to leave his class. "I don't want so many questions about the old and new testament". Since all the other students were Christians, I realised I'd better drop my "religion project" (Btw, for me it was a type of "useless knowledge" in the way Russel describe it in his essay by the same name).

Speaking of liberals:
There is an interesting liberal in USA, John Shelby Spong. He believes the time has come for intelligent Christians to grow up and admit there isn't a personal God of any kind. In other words - no "listener" for these prayers and petitions. ;-)

Spong accept Copernicus, Newton and Darwin and other scientist.

Let me quote from an article by Spong:
Next came Charles Darwin who related human life to the world of biology more significantly than anyone had heretofore imagined. He also confronted the human consciousness with concepts diametrically opposed to the traditional Christian world view. The Bible began with the assumption that God had created a finished and perfect world from which human beings had fallen away in an act of cosmic rebellion. Original sin was the reality in which all life was presumed to live. Darwin postulated instead an unfinished and thus imperfect creation out of which human life was still evolving. Human beings did not fall from perfection into sin as the Church had taught for centuries; we were evolving, and indeed are still evolving, into higher levels of consciousness. Thus the basic myth of Christianity that interpreted Jesus as a divine emissary who came to rescue the victims of the fall from the results of their original sin became inoperative. So did the interpretation of the cross of Calvary as the moment of divine sacrifice when the ransom for sin was paid. Established Christianity clearly wobbled under the impact of Darwin's insights, but Christian leaders pretended that if Darwin could not be defeated, he could at least be ignored. It was a vain hope.

More here:http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong/reform.html

David,

Good luck with your next essay about TGD!

Regards,

Ole

163. Comment #6667 by No More Hornets on November 15, 2006 at 9:52 am

Well, thank Peter Rabbit this thread is finally done.

164. Comment #6668 by saneatheist on November 15, 2006 at 10:02 am

>>Nate, It really is too bad david won't ever read this post, or actually think about these questions. he'll dismiss it as anger,<<

I'll bet he can't resist a sneeky peek.

165. Comment #6676 by Ryan on November 15, 2006 at 10:17 am

"I'm sorry but I honestly think I could have made a better case for atheism."

Really??? In esence he is saying that he can present an argument which disproves god and the benefits of science better than that laid out in TGD, and he STILL believes! How can anyone (including himself) take this guy seriously?

Ryan in Southern California (The Good South)

166. Comment #6703 by John Phillips on November 15, 2006 at 11:49 am

@Jack Sparrow. Don't know if anyone has answered this yet but as it might take me some time to finish reading this thread I thought I might as well put it in now and apologies if someone has already covered it.

The evolution of the eye is not that strange though wondrous and while Dawkins might have started, by the sound of your argument, from a position whereby he appears to make an assumption about the pre-existence of photo-sensitivity without explaining it fully, he had to start the explanation somewhere and unless he was writing a book purely about evolution there is a point where you have to ask how much detail is enough. Obviously, as your attempted refutation of the argument shows, he didn't go back far enough.

However it probably (note the probably, in case you take issue with the use of the word, thinking of myself somewhat a scientist I generally don't work in absolutes only probabilities) started with a cell that had basic light sensitivity in it's makeup and a range of such single and multi cell organisms have recently been discovered with a photosensitive chemical group that in some cases can be visibly seen to react to light by changing colour. Some types use it to orient themselves toward the light as they use the light partially for energy and other types use this light sensitivity for other survival uses and as a catalyst for other internal processes. Some scientists are studying these organisms to see if the chemicals involved can be used for photochemical power generation. This is not that strange as there are a range of naturally occurring materials with varying degrees of photo-sensitivity, usually releasing an electron when one or more photons interact with them and chemistry is basically the swapping or sharing of electrons. The very chemistry that runs our bodies relies on that basic operation.

We have also found multi-cell organisms that have taken the photo-sensitivity a stage or two further to a very crude eye in the sense that it uses a cluster of such single cells to give greater light sensitivity or greater directional discrimination. There are other organisms that fill in the remaining basic steps of the evolution of the eye. From there it is no great leap to see an evolution to the eye we know in all it's variations, all it needs is time. Thus while evolution might have produced a range of 'eyes' or light receptors for different animals the basic premise behind all of them at root is a photochemical reaction. Furthermore, the photosensitive chemicals in these single cell organisms are directly related to the photosensitive chemicals that are in all types of eyes in the animal kingdom.

Thus while you may try to belittle Dawkins' explanation of the eye, all you are actually doing is showing your ignorance of the subject.
Though to be fair to you, the use of the word ignorance above is not meant as an insult, simply that I would not expect anyone but a scientist or someone with a real interest in the subject to perhaps understand the intricacies of all we know so far about living organisms and how it relates to evolution. Nevertheless, the knowledge is there for anyone prepared to do the research. That is the magic, so to speak, of science, in that what one discovers another can confirm or deny through their own research. Thus while I think that the evolution of the eye, in fact all evolution, is very definitely a wondrous process and never ceases to fill me with awe, even more so as we understand it better and better, it is relatively easily explained with ample examples of all the stages required still visible in a range of living organisms.

167. Comment #6712 by Anonymous on November 15, 2006 at 12:12 pm

John, have you seen these articles?

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=24625&in_page_id=34

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17095691&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

jack's strategy is to terminate the arguement of infinate regress by invoking god. This is futile anyway, because even if you did disprove evolution, that does not prove god did it, and there is the who created god arguement that he doesn't think needs any answer other than he always existed

168. Comment #6729 by John Phillips on November 15, 2006 at 12:54 pm

Thanks for the links Billy, I remember reading an article about it a while ago but haven't really looked at it in any detail yet. Only so many hours in a day and I really could do with a minimum 48 hour day. I also noticed later that others like yourself did cover much of what I posted but this thread was such a long one I wanted to get my licks in, so to speak, while I had the time.

I agree with your other point but if they are given the information at least they can't then plead ignorance, what they do with it, well I leave that to them :) But with all the information posted by all about such issues it might just help someone else who is not so sure and might be ambivalent about the complexity argument. So I never consider repeated information or knowledge a problem, as long as it is accurate that is.

John

Robert A. Heinlein:
The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history.

169. Comment #6760 by Riley on November 15, 2006 at 1:54 pm

[Riley wrote:] "How do you even propose verifying or invalidating that which exists outside the realm of human experience?"
[David Robertson wrote:]Firstly I would not declare that because it is outside the realm of human experience then it cannot exist.

You've just changed my words and responded to a strawman argument of your own making.

I never said that something outside the realm of human experience can not exixt. I questioned how you could verify its existence (and thus have a debate).

[David Robertson wrote:]Human experience (whether individually or collectively) cannot be the sole defining characteristic of reality.
Of course you're right again, and this is another irrelevent strawman argument.

[David Robertson wrote:]Secondly I would say that there are many things that scientists accept which are outside the realm of our experience.
Nope. In the end, it always comes down to verification by experiement.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[David Robertson wrote:]I think you are misunderstanding my position on the BBC. As I indicated in the article it was the BBC executives themselves who admitted that there was a cultural bias within the organization towards a secularist, atheistic philosophy as the default philosophy. Please feel free to check it for yourself.

first off, I judge people by their actions, not by what they say. The actions of the BBC programming indicate plentiful pro-faith, God evangelism in its programming. You've yet to show me by comparison more than table-scraps of programming that promotes that non-existance of God.

I checked your claim conmcerning statements of BBC execs and this is what I found: Most BBC executives admitted that "it leaned too strongly towards political correctness, the overt promotion of multiculturalism, anti-Americanism and discrimination against the countryside."

So they're pro-urban, out of touch, over the top liberalism - AND ARE THEMSELVES UNHAPPY ABOUT IT! At best you can claim that they, in an effort to promote multiculturalism, determined to promote the Islamic faith, and have done so at the expense of Christian faith. I agree, very repugnant, but what does favoring Islam over Christianity have to do with promoting atheism!?!?


I give up. Get your facts straight. Do your own research.


--------------

170. Comment #6804 by saneatheist on November 15, 2006 at 4:01 pm

Only so many hours in a day and I really could do with a minimum 48 hour day.

I've borrowed this from another forum, one which I'm sure some of you will be aware of.
http://www.evilbible.com/wforum/index.php?sid=e928a332db5baa1f961355b357d2300d

This elastic definition of a day the fundies use to excuse the creation myth - it's pathetic, isn't it?

Remember, when the bible myth was being concocted, the Israelites had no idea of why a day was as it was. The bible's creation is essentially no more reasonable than the other middle-eastern, graeco-roman, meso-american, egyptian, african and other creations and less convincing than the far-eastern cyclical mytho-histories.

The scientific justification for a (fairly) stable timescale of a day only comes about with the Copernican worldview. Astronomy and Physics now give consistent and irrefutable evidence that the earth has been spinning for billions of years and that the light taken from faraway stars has been travelling for billions more. None of this matters to the fundies, as they claim that god created the world "in medias res" - in the middle of the tale, with a fictional backstory all in place.

So the fundies can claim a "pre-Adam" day is whatever they want to - it doesn't have anything to do with the rational world.
_________________Posted by jd

171. Comment #6817 by Paul Creber on November 15, 2006 at 4:55 pm

A fellow theist by the name of David Robertson claimed in one of his posts on this site that the supernatural is "verifiable and can be the subject of debate".
Please allow me to spell out why this cannot be so.
It just so happens that I am a recent convert to the Church of the Blessed Wednesday. I realise that few of you will have yet heard of this faith so I shall briefly bring you up to speed on its core beliefs.
Our church is part of the radical new UYEC (Ultra Young Earth Creationist) movement. With the divine help of Almighty God and His Blessed Midweek Messenger, we believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. We also believe that the universe was created in its entirety at 3.30pm last Wednesday (GMT).
You may well mock, you Godless bunch, but listen up. We have evidence, yes hard evidence, of the veracity of our beliefs. It comes in the shape of three sacred postcards vouchsafed to the prophet Cyril (my brother-in-law) by the Angel Gabriel while Cyril was supping Guinness at The Traveller's Rest in Barrow-in-Furness.
I have seen these sacred documents, now safely locked away in a shoebox, and can confirm that a translation from the original text, written in Inebriate, clearly states that after creation the Lord God implanted in the human mind the delusion that the Earth, the sun, the moon and stars were of far greater antiquity than is in fact the case. In His divine wisdom, the Lord also provided us with personal memories and written records of events from long ago, which of course never happened. How could they have when the whole thing only started last Wednesday?
We at the Church of the Blessed Wednesday stand by our beliefs and pledge to defend them against all infidel heresy, including anything masquerading on this abominable website as "reason and science".
In our graciousness, we are, however, prepared to enter into dialogue with your members, provided they accept and respect the central truths of our great faith. Please also respect the fact that the faithful will be unable to correspond with you on our Sabbath, which until divine revelation to the contrary, will take place every Wednesday.

Okay, enough of the nonsense. There is in fact a serious lesson to be learned from the above, and it is this: Once you allow the supernatural, you necessarily throw all reason, science and logic out the window. It is nonsense to suggest that reasoned, scientific debate can share a bed with the supernatural. This is simply because at any moment the advocate of the supernatural can merely pull the plug on you and disappear in a puff of smoke.
You may say, of course, that the silly example above is too extreme to have any relevance to anything. But when it comes to the supernatural, the word "extreme" loses all meaning. Just open the Bible or the Koran, and "extreme" supernatural events come tumbling out like conjuror's handkerchiefs. Virgins give birth, men and women come back from the dead, people walk on water, the blind can miraculously see, a one-dollar takeaway meal is transformed into a banquet for thousands (twice), water changes into wine, the sun stops in the sky… need I go on? David Blaine, eat your heart out.
Now I am not saying that the theist is de facto wrong in espousing such beliefs. It was open-mindedness more than anything else that led me to atheism, and my intellectual door remains ajar. What I am saying is that the theist can't have her cake and eat it. She cannot maintain on the one hand that we are all living on a celestial banana – or whatever belief it is that she follows – and on the other insist that reasonable and rational discourse between us is a realistic proposition.
She cannot insist that the laws of physics, chemistry or biology are liable to suspension at any moment if their suspension happens to support her beliefs, and then ask me to fix her car or boil her kettle.
If dialogue means anything, it suggests an openness and willingness to modify or change our beliefs about reality through discourse. As far as I can see, invocation of the supernatural makes such dialogue about as likely as a pedal cycle attempt on the north face of the Eiger.
Such thinking is pernicious for two reasons: Firstly it replaces honest inquiry with dogma, and secondly it rejects rational thought on the grounds of pure bigotry.
Freethinking atheists and agnostics, though they would never claim to have solved - or even addressed – a tiny fraction of the countless puzzles posed by this awesome universe, have at least the honesty to leave their eyes open and take in what is clearly visible.

172. Comment #6818 by Jamie on November 15, 2006 at 5:00 pm

Comment 6816 OOPS, was signed in as my flat mate there, but he's happy to agree with me anyway

173. Comment #6919 by Beth on November 16, 2006 at 7:30 am

Regarding Alex's posting:

He writes: There are many human experiences that are 'real' but which nonetheless beyond lie the ordinary scope of science. One of the most most interesting is the fact that people are instinctively 'religious'. I mean this in its broadest sense.

I strongly disagree with this position. Science is studying religious beliefs, and it is a hotly debated topic whether or not there is any sort of 'instinct' or biological basis for religion. Those of us who work in this area of science tend to be divided on the psychological processes of religion. Is it as Dawkins postulates, religion fits snuggly into a varity of evolved psychological mechanisms (I am in this camp), or did a more specific inclination of religiosity evolve? I strongly suggest you read TGD to further understand the complexities of this issue.

Many people are under the impression that children are prone to magical thinking, but there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that children are taught to think magically. Very young infants show great surprise and delight when the laws of physics or rationality are violated.

You also make the point that all other groups have some sort of religion. This is a technical point, but there is an argument to be made that cosmology is different from what we see as religion. Hunter-gatherer tribes could be said to have a cosmology rather than religious beliefs. Kinship plays a much stronger role in hunter-gatherer groups than does belief in spirits (which are nearly always at worst evil, at best mischievous). Their cosmology simply helps to explain the world as they know it.

Going back to our natural inclination toward religion, I would argue that children form cosmologies, which are very useful for being hijacked by religion.

174. Comment #6955 by Beth on November 16, 2006 at 10:39 am

Robinson writes:

11). Dawkins has also said retorted "It would look better on his CV than mine." This may sound arrogant, " - Yes it does, and it is. But it may be a justified arrogance. I actually understand and accept the 'Dawkins principle' about debating with YEC's. But why does he not debate with anyone else? His fundamental presupposition is not that evolution is true, but that BECAUSE evolution is true there is no God. It is that that he should be prepared to debate.



Sorry - got this one wrong - Dawkins does engage in debates with theists - you might want to check out Time magazine and his debate with Collins - it is listed on the website.

Concerning your closing note:

If Josh sees fit to post my next article on here I promise I will do my best to engage constructively with any who wish to discuss the issues raised in that article.

You are well aware that you were invited to post your new wave of comments onto this forum if you so desired. You don't need Josh to do it for you. So please do not make it appear that it is his responsibility or that he is preventing you from expressing your ideas. Rather cheeky of you isn't it? Honestly David - you ought to apologise.

175. Comment #6959 by Beth on November 16, 2006 at 11:02 am

For those of you following this thread who have not already done so, I suggest going to the website where Robinson's original article was posted
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/nov06.htm

Then find the Youth Page and download 'The Instructor'. It is exactly the sort of mental abuse Dawkins discusses in TGD. The children are asked to draw pictures of animals being slaughtered!!! Oh joy. Lightening and thunder are explained as being praises to god. Lots of science and reason there!

Perhaps Robinson would allow Richard to post one of his articles on the Free Church of Scotland's website. Tit for tat!

176. Comment #6960 by Paul Creber on November 16, 2006 at 11:02 am

Actually, I'm 90 per cent sure that Dawkins didn't say: "It will look better on your CV than mine."
As I recall, he was quoting a colleague, an Australian, I seem to remember.

177. Comment #6971 by Anonymous on November 16, 2006 at 12:06 pm

nice to see you're keeping it classy billy!

178. Comment #6973 by Anonymous on November 16, 2006 at 12:11 pm

more of the same available from the Rev Robertson at www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/novb06.htm
in his new article 'dawkins - A Religious non-believer'.
He's kept his word.

179. Comment #6997 by Nick on November 16, 2006 at 2:34 pm

ADR,
Here is a NASA website with some info on the Big Bang theory, if you're interested...

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bb1.html

180. Comment #7001 by Nick on November 16, 2006 at 2:39 pm

Sorry, this is the index to NASA's Big Bang pages...

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni.html

181. Comment #7004 by Paul Creber on November 16, 2006 at 2:50 pm

Response to ADR
I suppose 99 per cent of the population living in Newton's time believed in the supernatural, understandable perhaps when there was no other apparent explanation for the existence of life.
And don't let's forget Dawkins's insightful observations about the power of parental decrees over children. Irrational or not, they stick with you like glue.

182. Comment #7022 by Fedler on November 16, 2006 at 5:29 pm

Re: Comment #6991 by Azariah de Rossi

"If your really interested in science try an experimentE explode something and see if the result is more orderly than the start. I think not."

ADR, I have to take issue with this statement. In a book by Brian Greene called "Fabric of the Cosmos" he explains this as the well-defined scientific precept of 'entropy', which states physical systems naturally flow from a system of order to disorder (eggs break but never un-break, windows shatter but never un-shatter, etc.). The immense order of the universe at the Big Bang (particles enormously compacted into a relatively small area) exploded and begun the process of general 'unwinding' (a.k.a. expansion) that appears in the cosmos. The cosmos LOOKS uniform and ordered, but, and this is the main point, given the vast hugeness of the universe, the universe is, on the whole, more disordered than ordered when the totality of ALL the known universe is included. The universe is not ordered, it's disordered, and our little planet just happens to appear ordered because that's how we've evolved to make it.

Admittedly, physics doesn't know the conditions of the universe at time zero (just before the Bang), but physicists are working on the problem and I have no doubt an answer will someday arrive. But, entropy proves the universe is currently more disordered than when it started.

183. Comment #7026 by Fedler on November 16, 2006 at 5:48 pm

By the way, the lumpiness of space (i.e. planets, galaxies, etc.) only makes up about 5% of the known universe. Just FYI.

184. Comment #7056 by Anonymous on November 16, 2006 at 11:30 pm

I am sorry that I have to come back on this thread. I had assumed that given the interest in the first article, the responses and those who said that they were looking forward to commenting on the next one, that it would also be placed as an article on the website and so we could begin a separate thread. This would seem to me to make sense given that the current thread is over 400 long and that the purpose of this site is to allow 'a clear thinking oasis'. I had requested that the article be placed as a separate article but apparently this is not allowed. One wonders why? If I was not such a positive thinker I would think that it is because, in the words of the Norwegian football commentator describing his teams glorious victory over England, 'your boys took one hell of a beating!'. This thread is an embarrassment to the atheist cause. I was warned – they will never put the second one up – they don't like anything that makes them look bad. They will say you have the freedom to post on the forum. I said – don't be stupid. They put the first one up – it got a massive response – they are not that insecure. I was wrong.

So back to the posts.


Nate (376) – "It really is too bad david won't ever read this post, or actually think about these questions. he'll dismiss it as anger, attack my questions and how they are phrased and say, "there are many reasons to believe in god" without an ounce of proof, outside of 'the good book'
Reason does not enter into a christian debate. Faith rules the day."

You guys are just like some extreme religious believers. You don't listen, you only accuse and you keep repeating the same mantras 'faith and reason cannot go together'. The problem with your 'debate' is that you set the parameters so that anyone who does not agree with them is automatically dissed. But the partameters themselves are the subject of debate.

Steven (378) – "David Robertson's letter is very long! I read the whole thing and he makes no points that I can argue with really, because he makes no points at all, just a vague sort of rant."

This is a classic example of the point I was making just above. I think the post you are referring to (no. 374) contains about 40 points. The fact that you do not like them or cannot answer them does not entitle you just to describe them as 'a vague sort of rant'.

"Is it wort arguing against him here? Probably not - especially as it's hard to argue intelligently with someone who is just screaming 'Your wrong' in your face."

But that is precisely what I am not doing. I take my time going through each post trying to answer as much as I can. Of course if you want to (or have to) believe that I am just screaming 'your wrong' then I guess you will – that will then of course make it easier for you to dismiss me by stating that you cannot argue intelligently with me. I think that last phrase is obvious.

"There are whole channels in UK and USA dedicated to... er... something. (Though why God needs more than one channel beats me). I look forward to The Athiest Channel"

Indeed. Go ahead and fund one yourselves. Just stop expecting the rest of us as taxpayers to have to fund it through the State, in the same way that you want us to fund atheist schools. By the way the Christian TV channels (at least in the UK) are a disaster for the Gospel. They do a whole lot more harm than you guys do.

Ole (379) - Thanks. You are prepared at least to engage, discuss and think. Not sure that this site will do you much good.

Billy (383) – I know I should not respond to you but the temptation is too much.

"You lot certainly censor and burn books" - Another piece of completely false information. But hey why should truth get in the way of a good rant?

"How do you debate someone who bases their beliefs on no evidence "

That is a very good question. I must admit I am finding it very difficult to debate with atheists. You have such a strong faith and so little evidence.

"What privileged position? And how does TGD threaten my position?"
"Erm, let me see, power, influence, collection money, social standing (news paper colums and local celebrity). If TgD turns folk away, all that will change. Was that so hard to figure out? "

Yes – and very amusing. I have no power, very little influence, I don't get the collection money (I get paid the princely sum of $25,000 per year for working a 60 hour week) and I don't have any newspaper columns etc.

" Also, most people here want to argue their point. You basically retreat into "I know better" or "I right because the bible is right and if that is right, then I am right"

I think anyone reading through this thread would find that I am quite happy to argue my point and that I have not argued that because the Bible is right I am right. You are really struggling Billy with being able to cope with someone who disagrees with you and argue against them.

"Erm, no. Someone else told you that. Do you read the bible this carefully? Hmm. Someone who in your opinion dislikes opposition, has racist qualities (by the way, what do you think of the pope and catholics?) and publishes rubbish ... who does that remind you of - oh yes, the free church!"

Only if you have no knowledge of the Free Church. Keep going you might get something right eventually. I hate racism. As for the pope – he seems a really intelligent guy and personally I like what I know of him. As for catholics I tend to look upon them as human beings and not judge people because of the religion they belong to. I suggest you do the same.

Paul (392) – "Okay, enough of the nonsense. There is in fact a serious lesson to be learned from the above, and it is this: Once you allow the supernatural, you necessarily throw all reason, science and logic out the window. It is nonsense to suggest that reasoned, scientific debate can share a bed with the supernatural. This is simply because at any moment the advocate of the supernatural can merely pull the plug on you and disappear in a puff of smoke."

You guys absolutely amaze me. You say you want intelligent debate etc but you insist on predetermining the result before you even begin. Lets debate whether there is a supernatural God – then you say once you allow the supernatural you necessarily throw our all reason, science and logic, therefore it becomes impossible to debate. Why don't you let people know that and why don't you just spend the time talking to yourselves about how right you are and how stupid everyone else? Sorry – I can see that is precisely what you are doing! By the way I am not the one pulling the plug. Perhaps this site is not as open minded as it would like to think.

Beth (396) – The name is Robertson -

"Sorry - got this one wrong - Dawkins does engage in debates with theists - you might want to check out Time magazine and his debate with Collins - it is listed on the website. "

I would be prepared to admit that I did get this one wrong but I 'm afraid that the evidence is mounting up the other way. It appears to me that the RDF and others is not about debating, finding truth, dialogue etc. It is about propaganda, fighting the good fight (which includes silencing the enemy) and winning the war. You already know the truth so you don't need to debate it. It is fascinating to observe.

"You are well aware that you were invited to post your new wave of comments onto this forum if you so desired. You don't need Josh to do it for you. So please do not make it appear that it is his responsibility or that he is preventing you from expressing your ideas. Rather cheeky of you isn't it? Honestly David - you ought to apologise."

Not at all. Why has my article not been posted? I was not the one who posted the introductory article. It was not Christians who bombarded this site but atheists. The reason it is not being posted is that you do not want it on the front page – you do not want people having access to it. Why? Because this current thread shows atheism in a bad light and that is not what this website is about.

Billy (402) – "Well, I've realised that intellgent discussion is wasted on the fundies mr I dont give my name"

And then you write "His indoctrination manifesto is the TAT, and Robertson is the TIT!" – I guess if that is what you mean by 'intelligent discussion it IS wasted.

Billy – you are priceless! If I invented you I would be accused of exaggerating. By the way thanks for commenting on the second article. I can't really argue with anything you are saying because you will not allow me to. Apparently anyone who believes in a supernatural god is incapable of arguing intelligently – and I would have to agree with you. I am incapable of arguing with such intelligence and wit.

By the way if you want to comment on the article – here it is again http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/novb06.htm

And if you are looking for an ex-Catholic Marxist perspective try this http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html

I think it is wrong in some aspects and it is certainly crueler that I would be – but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

185. Comment #7070 by Paul Creber on November 17, 2006 at 2:08 am

Dear David Robertson,
You misinterpret my central point. In post 392, I went on to say: "I am not saying that the theist is de facto wrong in espousing such beliefs. It was open-mindedness more than anything else that led me to atheism, and my intellectual door remains ajar."
You may for all I know have other ways of reaching out to the supernatural, but, as my example of the Church of the Blessed Wednesday demonstrates, logic and reason are not among them. Invocation of the supernatural frees you by definition to argue with impunity that black is white and caterpillars ride bicycles. Faced with a challenging intellectual dilemma, all you need do is declare: "God did it" and move along to the next question.
You do this very thing in your second post. Whereas the scientist stares in awe at the wonders of nature and starts to address and investigate difficult questions about their origins, you listen to the waves crashing against the walls of the chapel (not for 40 days and nights, one hopes) and arrive at the instant conclusion that the existence of God is intellectually obvious. Do you reach the same intellectual conclusion when those waves become a tsunami, claiming the lives of hundreds of thousands? Or is the pat answer to that: "Satan is obvious"?

186. Comment #7071 by Chris on November 17, 2006 at 2:20 am

Dear David,

I can not speak for those running this site, but I would imagine that the fact that you are intending to write a response to each of the chapters in TGD makes it somewhat impractical to set up a link to each one, I suspect that the reason for the high number of responses to this thread is your willingness to post in it (and very good of you that is too) and conduct a dialogue. Had I been in charge I probably would have given it a new thread but I can certainly understand why they did not, obviously it has nothing to do with the 'hell of a beating' argument, but I suspect you were just being facetious in suggesting this.

I think you have a valid criticism of atheists in that they often tend to assume a superiority of intellectualism and intelligence and this is a false assumption. My experience is that religious beliefs are more a product of environment than of intellect (indeed the fact that beliefs or lack of seem to vary by geography whereas intelligence doesn't would seem to support my assertion), I know my wonderful religious people and my fiancée (who is much smarter than me) is a Christian.

I would like to address the suggestion often presented by those of faith (including yourself) that science itself is a matter of faith or that atheists are just as fundamentalist as the religious. I disagree with this claim, although from reading this thread, there are undoubtedly atheists who do adopt this approach. The atheist position (and this is well explained by Dawkins) is not based on faith because it claims not to KNOW that there is no God or even to KNOW that one is correct in ones beliefs but simply to know that one has taken rational position that is proportionate to the evidence available. That is to say that one has examined the God concept and found that there is insufficient evidence to believe in it (and even less to believe in any particular 'flavour' of God as interpreted by the numerous religions of the world ).

Such an approach does require a level of faith, it requires faith that the scientific method can lead to truth and that the various inputs of ones senses are a fair refection of reality. I can not know that there really is a world out there and that I am not just a 'brain in a jar' and I cannot know that anyone else even exists, only that I exist in some form. I take it on faith that my senses reflect some sort of reality but even this is rational because if I was wrong, it wouldn't matter anyway.

Now bearing in mind that most rational atheists would accept that there is a non-zero (although I think it extremely low) probability of the existence of any one of the many gods that have been proposed by mankind (including the Judeo Christian one) and that the punishment for a lack of faith is essentially infinite in value (eternal damnation), then one might think a rational argument for faith could be made along the lines of Pascal's wager. The key point to which all this rambling leads, is that I can not fake belief, I can fool you and those around me but any God who could see into my soul would know that I was feigning it based on the above mentioned cost benefit analysis. I often wonder how many religious people are hoping that at judgement day, God is unable to see their true feelings.

The conclusion is that atheists are not bad, they have not rejected God, they simply are physically incapable of believing in God anymore than they are capable of believing that 2+2=5. When we atheists look at the religious we see that they have taken the same cost benefit analysis and have identified a different optimal outcome and we reason that they either have access to more evidence than we (and are not sharing it) or that they have made an error in their logical analysis. The latter option seems more likely when we see the oppressive and unreasonable ways in which religion is often taught to people through schools, churches and parents. Indeed many of us were once religious ourselves and generally experienced that as a distortion of the truth.

There is a further issue about why those of us (particular those like Dawkins) are unhappy just to let religion be, the argument there is clear. I just wanted to address the claim that atheism requires faith – technically it does, it requires faith that the sensory inputs are correct, whereas religion requires faith that those inputs are wrong. I see this as fundamentally (excuse the pun) different.

That is all; I would like to thank you for coming on here and engaging in this dialogue,

Regards, Chris

187. Comment #7078 by Chris on November 17, 2006 at 3:41 am

Hi Billy,

Sorry if I am just repeating what has been said before, I was trying to put it a different way that might make more sense to David (or might not). I think one has to be careful in situations like this. Clearly David is not going to be converted to atheism in this discussion and clearly no one here is going to be persuaded to become a Christian if no new evidence is presented.

Nonetheless there are areas where progress can be made, some here might be able to learn that it is erroneous to think Christians are inherently stupid (and this is an important lesson) and David might understand the point about the so called faith in atheism. I hold out no hopes for a conversion but I think David might be persuaded away from towing certain 'party lines' used against atheists.

I think we should try to avoid letting the conversations becoming insulting (not saying you have done this but it has certainly happened in this thread) – this is counterproductive, it just allows the theists to walk away claiming an intellectual victory (whether this has happened or not) and this will inform the opinions of fellow theists about us and will galvanise theists and allow religious leaders to confirm their suspicions about us.

Many times a debate will become futile and it will be clear that nothing can be learned by either party. At this point it is important that we are able to walk away politely saying, "I disagree and there is no point in continuing this". To do anything else will result in the scoring of a political own goal.

I realise many disagree with this, but I am sure that there is value in trying to keep dialogue constructive or not having it at all (this after all is the approach that I think Dawkins goes for).

Chris

188. Comment #7081 by Martin on November 17, 2006 at 4:37 am

Chris,

yes the insults really are flying on this thread. The problem is the half the things one side says, no matter how "neutral" intended are taken as insults by the other side.

It comes down to the fact that us atheists think the bible is a work of fiction, and the theists like Mr Robertson think the bible is the word of god.

The only way any type of progress can be made in the discuss about religion is to accept the bible is in dispute and cannot be used as evidence of anything. I doubt theists would settle for that, as they don't appear to have any other arguments.

Uneducated theists would argue that science is in dispute, and to a point they are correct, it's the nature of science and progress that people disagree with the status quo. What they fail to realise is that the general science, like radiological dating, or evolution or quantum theory are not in dispute, it is the little details that are in dispute.

Theists are not all stupid, most are probably quite intelligent, the place where they are suffering is a combination of nurture, peer pressure.

They have been conditioned from birth, like pavlov's dogs, to see religion as a good thing, to see god as real, the bible as real. This has been reinforced everyday of their life by family, friends, community and of course the church, through services, schooling and television. It is a continuous cycle, everytime someone conditioned like that says "god helped me" or "through god I did blah" they are reinforcing the belief in those around them. It's a trained response, nothing more. If everyone around you still believed Father Christmas was real, people talked about him on TV, and kept reinforcing the view that he really existed, wouldn't you still believe as you did as a child that he was real?

Some people are considerably more risk takers than others, and in truth, leaving religion, even questioning religion is a risk, and in some places in the world a terminal risk. If you doubt god you are told that "this is natural" or "god is testing your faith" and are encouraged to delve even more deeply into religion, all the while the peer pressure and the expectations of those around you are to "find your way back to god". No one wants to be a failure... and not finding your way back to god would be admitting failure to those around you that believe, it's amazing what humans do to avoid looking like a failure.

We all live in comfort zones, and turning your back on something that will put you at odds with everyone you know, even your closest friends and relatives, is most defiantly not in our comfort zone.

I have nothing but profound admiration for those that have turned away from religion despite all the psychological warfare employed against them.

People like Robertson are those that have been conditioned the most. The psychology worked wonderfully and they believe so deeply, so profoundly, that they feel it their duty to make others "see the light". They can still break the conditioning, but for them it is hardest of all, and nothing people like myself could say would be enough. No matter how convincing the evidence, as soon as it in any way questions their belief it is discounted or wrong.

Like pavlov's dogs, if the bell rings there must be food, even if the bowl is empty.

If you question god, you must be wrong, even if the proof is overwhelming.

189. Comment #7088 by oj on November 17, 2006 at 5:20 am

Martin said:

They have been conditioned from birth, like pavlov's dogs, to see religion as a good thing, to see god as real, the bible as real.

Good point. I also think this is why you see a lot of anger in some who "lost their faith".
Like at the Lynchburg Q&A session.

Ole

190. Comment #7092 by Chris on November 17, 2006 at 5:47 am

I have no problem with pointing out the errors in someone's logic and one should not give deference to dogma, I just see a difference between being firm in ones response and being intentionally rude. One must have an eye on the big picture and the objectives which for me are a global move towards secular humanism and rational thinking.

I am sure that there are many many theists who have real doubts within themselves and really only act religious because of some Pascal wager argument or because of social pressure. These people are reachable but only by being very careful, this is a PR battle and there are many elements to it but essentially we need to be clear in what we believe and why (This is what Dawkins is doing so well) and we need to be accessible to those that disagree with us.

Give it time, clear answers to questions will facilitate understanding, insults will just turn people away. I know it can be frustrating but one must think of the bigger picture.

Anyway, I do not particularly wish to draw attention away from the purpose of this thread (The discussion of the articles(s)), I have said my piece on that now, all I ask is that people give this some consideration.

191. Comment #7105 by Anonymous on November 17, 2006 at 7:30 am

192. Comment #7107 by Christopher on November 17, 2006 at 7:49 am

I've been following this thread from the beginning, and thought I would join the fray and add a few thoughts.

Our stance on whether god exists or not is at the very core of our worldview. Thus, we are always biased and subjective when thinking about related issues. We look at everything in the light of our fundamental assumption that god does or does not exist. Thus, none of us are able to look at 'evidence' objectively. Furthermore, though we theoretically accept that we are open to debate and might be wrong, in practice we tend to think that, ultimately, we are correct in our view.

We can find it very hard to understand how others can't 'see the truth'. We think that if only they could somehow just see and understand the evidence in the 'objective' way that we see it, they would also hold the same belief. This means that we find it incredibly hard to understand how others might look at a particular issue claiming to be objective, using reason and evidence, and open to the possibility of being wrong, and yet hold the exact opposite opinion to us (and our response is often "they're wrong, they claim to have used reason etc, yet they disagree with me, so clearly they must not really have used reason etc, even if they think they have")

I was thinking of all this as I read Greg Achilles' post, so I thought I would use some of his statements to illustrate my point. For the sake of simplicity, I have prefixed the statements from his post with 'atheist'.

Atheist: Atheists have come to their conclusions through their own research and investigation of reality using verifiable evidence.
Theist: Theists have come to their conclusions through their own research and investigation of reality using verifiable evidence.

Atheist: …to follow the objective evidence wherever it leads in the search for truth.
Theist: …to follow the objective evidence wherever it leads in the search for truth.

Atheist: Theists often claim that atheists aren't open to being wrong.
Theist: Atheists often claim that theists aren't open to being wrong.

Atheist: It seems to atheists that that is simply logical. So can you see from this why atheists see themselves… as simply following common sense and logic?
Theist: It seems to theists that that is simply logical. So can you see from this why theists see themselves… as simply following common sense and logic?

Atheist: What drives atheists to convince others is, I suspect, simple empathy, a desire to steer people who are lost to the truth, a desire to make the world a better place where humanity is living in reality and is dealing with their problems.
Theist: What drives theists to convince others is, I suspect, simple empathy, a desire to steer people who are lost to the truth, a desire to make the world a better place where humanity is living in reality and is dealing with their problems.

I know that if I read these kinds of statements, I am tempted to think about half of them "yes, that's pretty much correct", and the other half "they say that, but they aren't REALLY following their common sense and logic etc". Add to this the very subjective effect of one's own life experiences, emotions etc, and things become even more difficult.

I guess what I'm saying is that our belief about whether god exists or not isn't as objective, open-minded, rational and evidence-based as we would like to think.

193. Comment #7116 by Paul Creber on November 17, 2006 at 8:17 am

Dear David Robertson
You write: "Faith does not entitle me to argue that black is white or that caterpillars ride bicycles."
Maybe you do not CHOOSE to believe that black is white or caterpillars ride bicycles, but faith ENITLES you to do just that.
It also entitles you to believe that virgins can give birth or the sun can halt in the sky. As a bible-believing Christian, you CHOOSE to believe both notions, which, to the rational mind, are at least as preposterous as caterpillars in the Tour de France.

194. Comment #7128 by Martin on November 17, 2006 at 9:12 am

Martin (429) – Your post is also helpful.

"The only way any type of progress can be made in the discuss about religion is to accept the bible is in dispute and cannot be used as evidence of anything. I doubt theists would settle for that, as they don't appear to have any other arguments."

Not true. I am quite happy to discuss many other things.


Certainly, how can you know that you are worshipping and obeying the will of the correct god or gods?


"Theists are not all stupid, most are probably quite intelligent, the place where they are suffering is a combination of nurture, peer pressure."

This is a patronizing superior comment which, whilst it is undoubtedly true of some theists (and incidentally some a-theists) is not true of all. It assumes (aka TGD) that atheists are generally more intelligent and have 'escaped' to a higher level of consciousness.


Patronising was not my intent, but you are quick to assume insult. I was born in germany, I have German grand parents. I know what it was like in Germany during Hitler's time, I've spoken to my family about it. Hitler was in almost religious terms. His word was truth. He and his Nazi apparatus managed to brainwash large portions of the country in believing what he said was true. Everyone believed him, so when the horror stories of death camp rumours surfaced no one believed them, after all, everyone knew they couldn't be true. Most Germans at that time were good people, and hitler shamelessly and callously used that good nature against them.

I don't consider those Germans (my grand parents) lesser people for not realising what was happening. They were manipulated by a master.

Religion is much the same in my view, only it's been working on humanity for millennia and instead of offering superiority and an empire, the respect that Germany felt it had lost after Versailles, it offers redemption and the prospect of eternal life or rewards. Religion uses exactly the same techniques Hitler used, one could even argue that he learned much from the Catholic church of which he was a devout follower, at least until WWI.


"We all live in comfort zones, and turning your back on something that will put you at odds with everyone you know, even your closest friends and relatives, is most defiantly not in our comfort zone."

Works both ways. Like the son of a well known scientist who came to my church and was threatened with being disinherited if he continued to come!

"People like Robertson are those that have been conditioned the most. The psychology worked wonderfully and they believe so deeply, so profoundly, that they feel it their duty to make others "see the light". They can still break the conditioning, but for them it is hardest of all, and nothing people like myself could say would be enough. No matter how convincing the evidence, as soon as it in any way questions their belief it is discounted or wrong."

What a comforting pseudo psychoanalysis for you. It allows you to dismiss anyone who is against you because obviously if they are stupid enough not to agree with you, and yet appear to be intelligent, they must be brainwashed. I must admit that I did not expect this kind of circular reasoning from intelligent atheists. It really looks as though you will not allow anyone to question your faith. You have no idea who I am, or what I have been through, or the doubts, fears, joys etc that are part of my life and journey. How wonderful for you to be able to live in such a black and white world. Oh to be a fundie….


I am not a fundamentalist, as you have chosen rubber stamp me; showing that if you actually believe what you say about me you are a hypocrite for acting in the same way.

As for my "comforting" psychoanalysis. It's not comforting at all. I find it extremely alarming. These brainwashing techniques what lead to the crusades, the inquisition, the recent terrorists outrages and also things like hitler's regime. The aims and motivations in each case may have been different, but the techniques were the same.

In the end religion (like all psychological tools) is a tool wielded by those in authority, for good or ill. The world would be a much better place without it.

We'd still have the Hitlers that rise to power through their own charisma and power of manipulation, but at least we will have removed a ready made framework for them to use.

While I certainly have no proof of the following assertion, it wouldn't surprise me that is a secular and atheist germany, not brainwashed by the church for generations to believe in authority figures Hitler might well have had a much harder time achieving his ends.

As to me being a fundie...

I don't dogmatically believe in something, anything, unlike yourself. Your unreasoning belief in your deity makes you "faithful" and your refusal to accept that god might not exist makes you dogmatic.

I can't disprove God, any more than I can disprove unicorns or pixies, but I am open to be convinced that he exists. Currently science does a much better job of explaining the universe than religion does.

If this personal god of yours exists, convince me. I'd like you to perform a miracle. I'd like you to pray to God for me (since I don't actually believe there'd not be much point in me doing it would there?) so that tomorrow not a single person dies anywhere in the world. Certainly a selfless request.

God doesn't work that way though does he? The ultimate religious cop-out. When science manages to explain what has always before been "god's work" you just move the goal-post.

195. Comment #7129 by Martin on November 17, 2006 at 9:13 am

apologies.. .the italics went a bit wrong on my last post.

196. Comment #7131 by Fedler on November 17, 2006 at 9:22 am

Mr. Robertson,

Thank you for your rational responses to the more rational, respectful posts. The insults (from both sides) do seem to get in the way, though. I admit surprise that you have continued your postings on this site. I did read your second review (after Josh posted the site here) and thought I detected more "openness" than the first review. I think I still fundamentally disagreed with it, but I appreciated it more than the first review.

Anyway...may I ask one question? You state in your last post that "I believe in God because it is the best rational position proportionate to the evidence offered". May I ask what evidence you refer to?

I hesitated to bring it up, though, because it feels, to me, that there is a basic disagreement on the definition of 'evidence', but I would like to hear what you have to say about your evidence. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or 'back you into a corner', but I honestly would like to know.

I've read Darwin --(I might add it was one of the harder things I've ever read, mainly because of the Victorian style in which it was written, which apparently involves the use of as many run-on sentences as possible) -- as well as Dawkins, and some physics textbooks regarding quantum mechanics, cosmology, the origin of the universe, etc. I've attempted to read some books stating the proof of God (the names and authors escape me at the moment), but I felt the evidence presented in those books was rather vague, or possessed a rather dream-like quality about them that made it hard for me to relate to. Maybe that's a defect in myself (that could be a possibililty, also) or maybe I just read the wrong books. Either way, I'd appreciate hearing what you have to say about the evidence factor (after the weekend, of course).

Kindly...

197. Comment #7133 by Fedler on November 17, 2006 at 9:27 am

Re: Comment #7128 by Martin

"When science manages to explain what has always before been "god's work" you just move the goal-post."

Nice analogy, Martin! I've had the same feeling myself.

198. Comment #7138 by Chris on November 17, 2006 at 10:13 am

It seems quite important to define the term faith. Many here have said that faith is inherently irrational and this draws criticism from theists that this is a fundamentalist position. I think the statement that 'faith is irrational' is correct but that's because of the definition of faith that I use. I suspect that it is the definition of faith that is central to disagreements that go on.

I define faith as follows;

'faith is belief in the face of scant, non existence or contradictory evidence'.

Or

'faith is belief that is disproportionate to the evidence'

These definitions are in line with that found in numerous online dictionaries. But then this is defining faith as irrational (its like saying the Bible is true because its says so in the Bible!). Clearly if someone disputes that faith is irrational then they are not defining it in this way. I asked theists to define what faith means to them before and I usually get a pretty feeble and meaningless answer that sounds like the product of indoctrination;

'faith is life'

'faith is love'

'God is faith'

etc

rather than knock over this particular straw man, I will refer to the definition that I think I pick up by inference from what theists say. This is the idea is faith is 'belief in something that cannot be proved' (and this leads to people saying things like don't you have faith that cars will stop at red lights or that the plane contains fuel). The problem is, that nothing can be