A Teacher on the Front Line as Faith and Science Clash152. Comment #237852 by severalspeciesof on August 27, 2008 at 10:05 am
I don't think you can (1) disprove the existence of something claimed to exist.
153. Comment #237857 by Sciros on August 27, 2008 at 10:14 am
I don't think you can (1) disprove the existence of something claimed to exist.
154. Comment #237859 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 10:22 am
155. Comment #237860 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 10:28 am
156. Comment #237862 by root2squared on August 27, 2008 at 10:43 am
157. Comment #237863 by SteveN on August 27, 2008 at 10:47 am
If left in that context, with no other information, you are correct. But with a specific enough context, with enough information, you CAN disprove the existence of something.
158. Comment #237865 by Sciros on August 27, 2008 at 10:52 am
If the instructor is in the classroom, he should point out that he is not supposed to allow his personal belief (or non-belief, for that matter) to interfere his teaching, and that he is willing to tell them his opinion and discuss all the relevant issues that his students are concerned with in a non-teaching setting, like after class. Emphasize that he will be honest to them by then, but in a classroom he should obey Rule 2. (By the way, I did criticize in an earlier post Mr Campbell for not doing so but sneaking in his belief (NOMA) into his class.)
In the after class setting, let's suppose you and your concerned family members are now in my office. So, what do you wanna know, Johnny? Which issues are bothering you?
I'd rather alienate students than teach a contaminated version of evolution which undermines science. Mainly because this would be doing a great disservice to the intelligent students in the class who are now being taught at the LCD.
Any encroachment of religion in science class should not be put up with. If it alienates the students who are arrogant enough to spout nonsense on a topic they know nothing about, well, we do need our minimum wage workers, don't we? No offense to them btw. Unless they do deny evolution.
The failure of such students to learn evolution is solely the responsibility of their parents/churches, not the teacher's.Teachers are not ultimately responsible for the success or failure of any student, but those whose students fail to learn may as well not be teachers at all. Maybe they should be the minimum wage workers you mention. Teachers are there to provide our children with as good an education as possible, and I find inability to teach a subject "on principle" to be, well, "educational treason" whether that principle is theistic or secular. "I refuse to teach evolution because my convictions are at odds with it" is to me ultimately as irresponsible as "I cannot adequately teach evolution because my convictions are at odds with effective teaching methods."
159. Comment #237868 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 11:04 am
160. Comment #237873 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 11:12 am
161. Comment #237877 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 11:21 am
162. Comment #237878 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 11:22 am
"Can anybody think of a question science can't answer?"
"Are there invisible pink unicorns?" shot back a boy near the window.
"Good," said Mr. Campbell "...Can't test it. Can't prove it, can't disprove it. It's not a question for science."
163. Comment #237880 by Sciros on August 27, 2008 at 11:23 am
164. Comment #237886 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 11:28 am
165. Comment #237890 by Quine on August 27, 2008 at 11:32 am
166. Comment #237891 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 11:33 am
I'd rather alienate students than teach a contaminated version of evolution which undermines science.
Any encroachment of religion in science class should not be put up with. .
167. Comment #237894 by Sciros on August 27, 2008 at 11:35 am
168. Comment #237896 by beeline on August 27, 2008 at 11:36 am
For (1), I invite you to reread the relevant post (118. Comment #237711). I think you missed "so defined" in your first perusal.
169. Comment #237905 by root2squared on August 27, 2008 at 11:46 am
This is wrong on both counts. You're not contaminating evolution -- Stephen Jay Gould did not study a "contaminated" version of evolution. What you're doing is shrinking religion's realm, pushing it far enough out of the domain of biology as to have students be comfortable with understanding evolution who are reluctant to do away with their theism altogether. At worst, you are "contaminating" fundamentalist religion.
The second count you're wrong on is that this approach undermines the education of the atheist students (not "intelligent" -- there are many stupid atheists out there, as we are all aware). It doesn't. Those students don't become deist or whatever on account of the instructor invoking NOMA in the classroom. The classroom material is not changed or "dumbed down" to accomodate anyone.
Yes, let's deny children education on principle! If they're too stubborn to learn about evolution without being told that it doesn't force them to atheism, then they don't deserve to learn about evolution. Minimum wage workers, nice. Keep them stupid and keep them poor. I STRONGLY disagree with your stance on this, and I find it indefensible.
Teachers are not ultimately responsible for the success or failure of any student, but those whose students fail to learn may as well not be teachers at all. Maybe they should be the minimum wage workers you mention. Teachers are there to provide our children with as good an education as possible, and I find inability to teach a subject "on principle" to be, well, "educational treason" whether that principle is theistic or secular. "I refuse to teach evolution because my convictions are at odds with it" is to me ultimately as irresponsible as "I cannot adequately teach evolution because my convictions are at odds with effective teaching methods.
What part of "science cannot disprove god" undermines evolution?
170. Comment #237909 by epeeist on August 27, 2008 at 11:53 am
Also, the definition of the properties of the dragon is not complete (and will never be complete), and this is what protects the 'existence of God - he cannot be defined. It's why in several sects you aren't even allowed to mention His name or depict Him - because you may not deign to define him. Science has no tools to deal with this kind of sliding, infinite-regression non-rationality, so it shouldn't even try. It's a waste of time.You might not be able to provide an empirical disproof, but this does not mean to say that it is a waste of time.
171. Comment #237912 by Quine on August 27, 2008 at 11:55 am
Quine, the question at hand is how to approach those students who actually need to be warmed up to the idea of evolution, rather than just "not driven away." The question of how to deal with students who have been indoctrinated against understanding evolution, let alone accepting it.
172. Comment #237913 by irate_atheist on August 27, 2008 at 11:56 am
It's why in several sects you aren't even allowed to mention His name or depict Him - because you may not deign to define him. Science has no tools to deal with this kind of sliding, infinite-regression non-rationality, so it shouldn't even try.I disagree. The twelve-bore, for example, is a very good tool.
173. Comment #237915 by irate_atheist on August 27, 2008 at 11:59 am
174. Comment #237918 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 12:01 pm
175. Comment #237922 by root2squared on August 27, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Yes, let's deny children education on principle! If they're too stubborn to learn about evolution without being told that it doesn't force them to atheism, then they don't deserve to learn about evolution. Minimum wage workers, nice. Keep them stupid and keep them poor. I STRONGLY disagree with your stance on this, and I find it indefensible.
176. Comment #237924 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 12:07 pm
177. Comment #237925 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 12:11 pm
178. Comment #237932 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 12:31 pm
179. Comment #237933 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 12:33 pm
180. Comment #237939 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 12:45 pm
181. Comment #237943 by Bonzai on August 27, 2008 at 12:52 pm
QuineNOMA can be applied when the deity or deities are of the non-interacting kind (in there with the pink unicorns). However, as soon as there is any interaction attributed to the supernatural, NOMA goes by the way
182. Comment #237948 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 12:58 pm
183. Comment #237949 by Quine on August 27, 2008 at 1:00 pm
184. Comment #237955 by Bonzai on August 27, 2008 at 1:04 pm
QuineHaving said that, I do not think Gould is being treated unfairly because he knew perfectly well that no religion practiced on this earth was in that class.
185. Comment #237982 by root2squared on August 27, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Please explain what part of Campbell's approach will leave students with a half-baked understanding of evolution?
Is it evolution = strong atheism or nothing?
What if your religion posits that an alien planted the first replicating cell on earth 6 billion years ago and then left it do run its course? What part of that belief system will limit in any shape form or fashion your ability to accept and understand every facet of evolution?
186. Comment #237994 by Sciros on August 27, 2008 at 1:35 pm
I thing NOMA is completely incorrect. By not refuting anything supernatural in a science class you are indirectly undermining science.
This means that the students who are not religious nutcases may suffer because now they think it is ok to fill in gaps with "God did it".
Evolution is just one scientific theory, and it should be taught as one. You don't have angels moving around atoms to support the theory of gravity, do you? So the scientific method is being contaminated.
I find it morally indefensible that you would be willing to allow not only the propogation of a meme that is so harmful to society, but to actually allow it to infect others too, simply so that some arrogant parents' children have a half baked understanding of evolution.
187. Comment #237995 by Quine on August 27, 2008 at 1:35 pm
But in a science class, if religion is put forth as an explanation for anything it should be treated with exactly the same disdain that any scientific theory with zero evidence is treated.
188. Comment #237999 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 1:37 pm
189. Comment #238021 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 2:01 pm
[Campbell] "Science explores nature by testing and gathering data," he said. "It can't tell you what's right and wrong. It doesn't address ethics. But it is not anti-religion. Science and religion just ask different questions."
"Can anybody think of a question science can't answer?"
"Is there a God?" shot back a boy near the window.
"Good," said Mr. Campbell, an Anglican who attends church most Sundays. "Can't test it. Can't prove it, can't disprove it. It's not a question for science."
190. Comment #238043 by Quine on August 27, 2008 at 2:25 pm
... but he was saying that they should.
191. Comment #238058 by root2squared on August 27, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Science classes are intended to teach the material that is in their curricula. That curricula does not, in general, include explicitly refuting religious doctrine. The directives aren't something like "while teaching evolution, be sure to point out at least 10 inconsistencies in the Bible."
So you are saying it is the burden/responsibility of the science teachers to undo religious indoctrination.
You may say that the idea of NOMA doesn't actually go together with an "interventionist god," and you would be right -- but the idea of NOMA is indeed that god is NOT interventionist. When the teacher invokes NOMA, he is advocating at worst a much... milder form of religion than what fundamentalist students were brought up with.
Are you joking? To begin, you have no evidence to show that students of any religious inclination, including none at all walk away from biology class with a "half-baked understanding of evolution" when NOMA is invoked (which I think it is in very, very many classrooms). Furthermore, you've got a pretty tall order to fill when you claim that NOMA is "a meme so harmful to society." In addition, you have no evidence to suggest that a science teacher invoking NOMA causes it to "infect others" when those others aren't even more religious to begin with. And finally, what is with the whole "arrogant parents" deal? If anyone here is arrogant, it's mister "we need minimum wage workers after all."
192. Comment #238069 by root2squared on August 27, 2008 at 2:44 pm
I was just trying to be funny with the "I missed the post" comment... didn't mean to be disrespectful. Perhaps we're slightly misaligned on the argument. Edit: My whole point is that PZ was wrong in criticizing Campbell for his soft, chicken-hearted (in PZ's opinion) tactics.
193. Comment #238088 by Sciros on August 27, 2008 at 3:04 pm
No, I did not say that. You are putting up strawmen. However, if a student says in a science class that god started evolution, the teacher has to disagree because from a scientific view, this claim has zero evidence. Again, this is where religion encroaches on science.
This is complete and utter nonsense. By merely acknowledging that god is non-interventionist, you are implicitly acknowledging that god exists. And how on earth can you claim that if god exists, he doesn't intervene? After all, religion says he always does. This is a direct conflict. This means you have introduced the possibility of god in science. Just saying he does not intervene is too foolish an argument to address. You can't make up arbitrary rules that are in anyway touch upon science.
194. Comment #238149 by Bonzai on August 27, 2008 at 4:24 pm
root2squareYou are teaching science. If you allow supernatural explanations to intersect with the natural domain of science, you are teaching science incorrectly.
151. Comment #237848 by beeline on August 27, 2008 at 9:37 am
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/08/dnc_provides_evidence_for_gods.php
:-D
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