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Sunday, August 24, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document A Teacher on the Front Line as Faith and Science Clash

by NY Times

Thanks to alykaystati for the link. See PZ Myers post about this article as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/24/education/24evolution.html?_r=1&ei=5070&emc=eta1&oref=slogin

A Teacher on the Front Line as Faith and Science Clash
By AMY HARMON

ORANGE PARK, Fla. — David Campbell switched on the overhead projector and wrote "Evolution" in the rectangle of light on the screen.

He scanned the faces of the sophomores in his Biology I class. Many of them, he knew from years of teaching high school in this Jacksonville suburb, had been raised to take the biblical creation story as fact. His gaze rested for a moment on Bryce Haas, a football player who attended the 6 a.m. prayer meetings of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes in the school gymnasium.

"If I do this wrong," Mr. Campbell remembers thinking on that humid spring morning, "I'll lose him."

In February, the Florida Department of Education modified its standards to explicitly require, for the first time, the state's public schools to teach evolution, calling it "the organizing principle of life science." Spurred in part by legal rulings against school districts seeking to favor religious versions of natural history, over a dozen other states have also given more emphasis in recent years to what has long been the scientific consensus: that all of the diverse life forms on Earth descended from a common ancestor, through a process of mutation and natural selection, over billions of years.

But in a nation where evangelical Protestantism and other religious traditions stress a literal reading of the biblical description of God's individually creating each species, students often arrive at school fearing that evolution, and perhaps science itself, is hostile to their faith.

Some come armed with "Ten questions to ask your biology teacher about evolution," a document circulated on the Internet that highlights supposed weaknesses in evolutionary theory. Others scrawl their opposition on homework assignments. Many just tune out.

With a mandate to teach evolution but little guidance as to how, science teachers are contriving their own ways to turn a culture war into a lesson plan. How they fare may bear on whether a new generation of Americans embraces scientific evidence alongside religious belief.

"If you see something you don't understand, you have to ask 'why?' or 'how?' " Mr. Campbell often admonished his students at Ridgeview High School.

Yet their abiding mistrust in evolution, he feared, jeopardized their belief in the basic power of science to explain the natural world — and their ability to make sense of it themselves.

Passionate on the subject, Mr. Campbell had helped to devise the state's new evolution standards, which will be phased in starting this fall. A former Navy flight instructor not used to pulling his punches, he fought hard for their passage. But with his students this spring, he found himself treading carefully, as he tried to bridge an ideological divide that stretches well beyond his classroom.

A Cartoon and a Challenge

He started with Mickey Mouse.

On the projector, Mr. Campbell placed slides of the cartoon icon: one at his skinny genesis in 1928; one from his 1940 turn as the impish Sorcerer's Apprentice; and another of the rounded, ingratiating charmer of Mouse Club fame.

"How," he asked his students, "has Mickey changed?"

Natives of Disney World's home state, they waved their hands and called out answers.

"His tail gets shorter," Bryce volunteered.

"Bigger eyes!" someone else shouted.

"He looks happier," one girl observed. "And cuter."

Mr. Campbell smiled. "Mickey evolved," he said. "And Mickey gets cuter because Walt Disney makes more money that way. That is 'selection.' "

Later, he would get to the touchier part, about how the minute changes in organisms that drive biological change arise spontaneously, without direction. And how a struggle for existence among naturally varying individuals has helped to generate every species, living and extinct, on the planet.

For now, it was enough that they were listening.

He strode back to the projector, past his menagerie of snakes and baby turtles, and pointed to the word he had written in the beginning of class.

"Evolution has been the focus of a lot of debate in our state this year," he said. "If you read the newspapers, everyone is arguing, 'is it a theory, is it not a theory?' The answer is, we can observe it. We can see it happen, just like you can see it in Mickey."

Some students were nodding. As the bell rang, Mr. Campbell stood by the door, satisfied. But Bryce, heavyset with blond curls, left with a stage whisper as he slung his knapsack over his shoulder.

"I can see something else, too," he said. "I can see that there's no way I came from an ape."

Fighting for a Mandate

As recently as three years ago, the guidelines that govern science education in more than a third of American public schools gave exceedingly short shrift to evolution, according to reviews by education experts. Some still do, science advocates contend. Just this summer, religious advocates lobbied successfully for a Louisiana law that protects the right of local schools to teach alternative theories for the origin of species, even though there are none that scientists recognize as valid. The Florida Legislature is expected to reopen debate on a similar bill this fall.

Even states that require teachers to cover the basics of evolution, like natural selection, rarely ask them to explain in any detail how humans, in particular, evolved from earlier life forms. That subject can be especially fraught for young people taught to believe that the basis for moral conduct lies in God's having created man uniquely in his own image.

The poor treatment of evolution in some state education standards may reflect the public's widely held creationist beliefs. In Gallup polls over the last 25 years, nearly half of American adults have consistently said they believe God created all living things in their present form, sometime in the last 10,000 years. But a 2005 defeat in federal court for a school board in Dover, Pa., that sought to cast doubt on evolution gave legal ammunition to evolution proponents on school boards and in statehouses across the country.

In its wake, Ohio removed a requirement that biology classes include "critical analysis" of evolution. Efforts to pass bills that implicitly condone the teaching of religious theories for life's origins have failed in at least five states. And as science standards come up for regular review, other states have added material on evolution to student achievement tests, and required teachers to spend more time covering it.

When Florida's last set of science standards came out in 1996, soon after Mr. Campbell took the teaching job at Ridgeview, he studied them in disbelief. Though they included the concept that biological "changes over time" occur, the word evolution was not mentioned.

He called his district science supervisor. "Is this really what they want us to teach for the next 10 years?" he demanded.

In 2000, when the independent Thomas B. Fordham Foundation evaluated the evolution education standards of all 50 states, Florida was among 12 to receive a grade of F. (Kansas, which drew international attention in 1999 for deleting all mention of evolution and later embracing supernatural theories, received an F-minus.)

Mr. Campbell, 52, who majored in biology while putting himself through Cornell University on a Reserve Officers Training Corps scholarship, taught evolution anyway. But like nearly a third of biology teachers across the country, and more in his politically conservative district, he regularly heard from parents voicing complaints.

With no school policy to back him up, he spent less time on the subject than he would have liked. And he bit back his irritation at Teresa Yancey, a biology teacher down the hall who taught a unit she called "Evolution or NOT."

Animals do adapt to their environments, Ms. Yancey tells her students, but evolution alone can hardly account for the appearance of wholly different life forms. She leaves it up to them to draw their own conclusions. But when pressed, she tells them, "I think God did it."

Mr. Campbell was well aware of her opinion. "I don't think we have this great massive change over time where we go from fish to amphibians, from monkeys to man," she once told him. "We see lizards with different-shaped tails, we don't see blizzards — the lizard bird."

With some approximation of courtesy, Mr. Campbell reminded her that only a tiny fraction of organisms that ever lived had been preserved in fossils. Even so, he informed his own students, scientists have discovered thousands of fossils that provide evidence of one species transitioning into another — including feathered dinosaurs.

But at the inaugural meeting of the Florida Citizens for Science, which he co-founded in 2005, he vented his frustration. "The kids are getting hurt," Mr. Campbell told teachers and parents. "We need to do something."

The Dover decision in December of that year dealt a blow to "intelligent design," which posits that life is too complex to be explained by evolution alone, and has been widely promoted by religious advocates since the Supreme Court's 1987 ban on creationism in public schools. The federal judge in the case called the doctrine "creationism re-labeled," and found the Dover school board had violated the constitutional separation of church and state by requiring teachers to mention it. The school district paid $1 million in legal costs.

Inspired, the Florida citizens group soon contacted similar groups in other states advocating better teaching of evolution. And in June 2007, when his supervisor invited Mr. Campbell to help draft Florida's new standards, he quickly accepted.

During the next six months, he made the drive to three-day meetings in Orlando and Tallahassee six times. By January 2008 the Board of Education budget had run out. But the 30 teachers on the standards committee paid for their own gasoline to attend their last meeting.

Mr. Campbell quietly rejoiced in their final draft. Under the proposed new standards, high school students could be tested on how fossils and DNA provide evidence for evolution. Florida students would even be expected to learn how their own species fits into the tree of life.

Whether the state's board of education would adopt them, however, was unclear. There were heated objections from some religious organizations and local school boards. In a stormy public comment session, Mr. Campbell defended his fellow writers against complaints that they had not included alternative explanations for life's diversity, like intelligent design.

His attempt at humor came with an edge:

"We also failed to include astrology, alchemy and the concept of the moon being made of green cheese," he said. "Because those aren't science, either."

The evening of the vote, Mr. Campbell learned by e-mail message from an education official that the words "scientific theory of" had been inserted in front of "evolution" to appease opponents on the board. Even so, the standards passed by only a 4-to-3 vote.

Mr. Campbell cringed at the wording, which seemed to suggest evolution was a kind of hunch instead of the only accepted scientific explanation for the great variety of life on Earth. But he turned off his computer without scrolling through all of the frustrated replies from other writers. The standards, he thought, were finally in place.

Now he just had to teach.

The Limits of Science

The morning after his Mickey Mouse gambit, he bounced a pink rubber Spalding ball on the classroom's hard linoleum floor.

"Gravity," he said. "I can do this until the end of the semester, and I can only assume that it will work the same way each time."

He looked around the room. "Bryce, what is it called when natural laws are suspended — what do you call it when water changes into wine?"

"Miracle?" Bryce supplied.

Mr. Campbell nodded. The ball hit the floor again.

"Science explores nature by testing and gathering data," he said. "It can't tell you what's right and wrong. It doesn't address ethics. But it is not anti-religion. Science and religion just ask different questions."

He grabbed the ball and held it still.

"Can anybody think of a question science can't answer?"

"Is there a God?" shot back a boy near the window.

"Good," said Mr. Campbell, an Anglican who attends church most Sundays. "Can't test it. Can't prove it, can't disprove it. It's not a question for science."

ryce raised his hand.

"But there is scientific proof that there is a God," he said. "Over in Turkey there's a piece of wood from Noah's ark that came out of a glacier."

Mr. Campbell chose his words carefully.

"If I could prove, tomorrow, that that chunk of wood is not from the ark, is not even 500 years old and not even from the right kind of tree — would that damage your religious faith at all?"

Bryce thought for a moment.

"No," he said.

The room was unusually quiet.

"Faith is not based on science," Mr. Campbell said. "And science is not based on faith. I don't expect you to 'believe' the scientific explanation of evolution that we're going to talk about over the next few weeks."

"But I do," he added, "expect you to understand it."

The Lure of T. Rex

Over the next weeks, Mr. Campbell regaled his students with the array of evidence on which evolutionary theory is based. To see how diverse species are related, they studied the embryos of chickens and fish, and the anatomy of horses, cats, seals and bats.

To simulate natural selection, they pretended to be birds picking light-colored moths off tree bark newly darkened by soot.

But the dearth of questions made him uneasy.

"I still don't have a good feeling on how well any of them are internalizing any of this," he worried aloud.

When he was 5, Mr. Campbell's aunt took him on a trip from his home in Connecticut to the American Museum of Natural History in New York City. At the end of the day, she had to pry him away from the Tyrannosaurus rex.

If this didn't hook them, he thought one Wednesday morning, admiring the cast of a T. rex brain case he set on one of the classroom's long, black laboratory tables, nothing would. Carefully, he distributed several other fossils, including two he had collected himself.

He placed particular hope in the jaw of a 34-million-year-old horse ancestor. Through chance, selection and extinction, he had told his class, today's powerfully muscled, shoulder-high horses had evolved from squat dog-sized creatures.

The diminutive jaw, from an early horse that stood about two feet tall, offered proof of how the species had changed over time. And maybe, if they accepted the evolution of Equus caballus, they could begin to contemplate the origin of Homo sapiens.

Mr. Campbell instructed the students to spend three minutes at each station. He watched Bryce and his partner, Allie Farris, look at the illustration of a modern horse jaw he had posted next to the fossil of its Mesohippus ancestor. Hovering, he kicked himself for not acquiring a real one to make the comparison more tangible. But they lingered, well past their time limit. Bryce pointed to the jaw in the picture and held the fossil up to his own mouth.

"It's maybe the size of a dog's jaw or a cat's," he said, measuring.

He looked at Allie. "That's pretty cool, don't you think?"

After class, Mr. Campbell fed the turtles. It was time for a test, he thought.

'I Don't Believe in This'

Bryce came to Ridgeview as a freshman from a Christian private school where he attended junior high.

At 16, Bryce, whose parents had made sure he read the Bible for an hour each Sunday as a child, no longer went to church. But he did make it to the predawn meetings of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, a national Christian sports organization whose mission statement defines the Bible as the "authoritative Word of God." Life had been dark after his father died a year ago, he told the group, but things had been going better recently, and he attributed that to God's help.

When the subject of evolution came up at a recent fellowship meeting, several of the students rolled their eyes.

"I think a big reason evolutionists believe what they believe is they don't want to have to be ruled by God," said Josh Rou, 17.

"Evolution is telling you that you're like an animal," Bryce agreed. "That's why people stand strong with Christianity, because it teaches people to lead a good life and not do wrong."

Doug Daugherty, 17, allowed that he liked science.

"I'll watch the Discovery Channel and say 'Ooh, that's interesting,' " he said. "But there's a difference between thinking something is interesting and believing it."

The last question on the test Mr. Campbell passed out a week later asked students to explain two forms of evidence supporting evolutionary change and natural selection.

"I refuse to answer," Bryce wrote. "I don't believe in this."

Losing Heart

Mr. Campbell looked at the calendar. Perhaps this semester, he thought, he would skip over the touchy subject of human origins. The new standards, after all, had not gone into effect. "Maybe I'll just give them the fetal pig dissection," he said with a sigh.

It wasn't just Bryce. Many of the students, Mr. Campbell sensed, were not grasping the basic principles of biological evolution. If he forced them to look at themselves in the evolutionary mirror, he risked alienating them entirely.

The discovery that a copy of "Evolution Exposed," published by the creationist organization Answers in Genesis, was circulating among the class did not raise his flagging spirits. The book lists each reference to evolution in the biology textbook Mr. Campbell uses and offers an explanation for why it is wrong.

Where the textbook states, for example, that "Homo sapiens appeared in Africa 200,000 years ago based on fossil and DNA evidence," "Exposed" counters that "The fossil evidence of hominids (alleged human ancestors) is extremely limited." A pastor at a local church, Mr. Campbell learned, had given a copy of "Exposed" to every graduating senior the previous year.

But the next week, at a meeting in Tallahassee where he sorted the new science standards into course descriptions for other teachers, the words he had helped write reverberated in his head.

"Evolution," the standards said, "is the fundamental concept underlying all biology."

When he got home, he dug out his slide illustrating the nearly exact match between human and chimpanzee chromosomes, and prepared for a contentious class.

Facing the Challenge

"True or false?" he barked the following week, wearing a tie emblazoned with the DNA double helix. "Humans evolved from chimpanzees."

The students stared at him, unsure. "True," some called out.

"False," he said, correcting a common misconception. "But we do share a common ancestor."

More gently now, he started into the story of how, five or six million years ago, a group of primates in Africa split. Some stayed in the forest and evolved into chimps; others — our ancestors — migrated to the grasslands.

On the projector, he placed a picture of the hand of a gibbon, another human cousin. "There's the opposable thumb," he said, wiggling his own. "But theirs is a longer hand because they live in trees, and their arms are very long."

Mr. Campbell bent over, walking on the outer part of his foot. He had intended to mimic how arms became shorter and legs became longer. He planned to tell the class how our upright gait, built on a body plan inherited from tree-dwelling primates, made us prone to lower back pain. And how, over the last two million years, our jaws have grown shorter, which is why wisdom teeth so often need to be removed.

But too many hands had gone up.

He answered as fast as he could, his pulse quickening as it had rarely done since his days on his high school debate team.

"If that really happened," Allie wanted to know, "wouldn't you still see things evolving?"

"We do," he said. "But this is happening over millions of years. With humans, if I'm lucky I might see four generations in my lifetime."

Caitlin Johnson, 15, was next.

"If we had to have evolved from something," she wanted to know, "then whatever we evolved from, where did IT evolve from?"

"It came from earlier primates," Mr. Campbell replied.

"And where did those come from?"

"You can trace mammals back 250 million years," he said. The first ones, he reminded them, were small, mouselike creatures that lived in the shadow of dinosaurs.

Other students were jumping in.

"Even if we did split off from chimps," someone asked, "how come they stayed the same but we changed?"

"They didn't stay the same," Mr. Campbell answered. "They were smaller, more slender — they've changed a lot."

Bryce had been listening, studying the hand of the monkey on the screen .

"How does our hand go from being that long to just a smaller hand?" he said. "I don't see how that happens."

"If a smaller hand is beneficial," Mr. Campbell said, "individuals with small hands will have more children, while those with bigger hands will disappear."

"But if we came from them, why are they still around?"

"Just because a new population evolves doesn't mean the old one dies out," Mr. Campbell said.

Bryce spoke again. This time it wasn't a question.

"So it just doesn't stop," he said.

"No," said Mr. Campbell. "If the environment is suitable, a species can go on for a long time."

"What about us," Bryce pursued. "Are we going to evolve?"

Mr. Campbell stopped, and took a breath.

"Yes," he said. "Unless we go extinct."

When the bell rang, he knew that he had not convinced Bryce, and perhaps many of the others. But that week, he gave the students an opportunity to answer the questions they had missed on the last test. Grading Bryce's paper later in the quiet of his empty classroom, he saw that this time, the question that asked for evidence of evolutionary change had been answered.

Comments 151 - 200 of 303 | | View Alternate Comment Thread

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151. Comment #237848 by beeline on August 27, 2008 at 9:37 am

 avatarAnd in related god-proving news, this:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/08/dnc_provides_evidence_for_gods.php

:-D

Other Comments by beeline

152. Comment #237852 by severalspeciesof on August 27, 2008 at 10:05 am

 avatar
I don't think you can (1) disprove the existence of something claimed to exist.


If left in that context, with no other information, you are correct. But with a specific enough context, with enough information, you CAN disprove the existence of something.

[Edit] Maybe the word 'information' should read 'description'

Other Comments by severalspeciesof

153. Comment #237857 by Sciros on August 27, 2008 at 10:14 am

 avatar
I don't think you can (1) disprove the existence of something claimed to exist.

Perhaps Guglielmucci had cancer after all!!

Other Comments by Sciros

154. Comment #237859 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 10:22 am

 avatarSciros,

When the instructor is asked to affirm or deny the existence of God:

If the instructor is in the classroom, he should point out that he is not supposed to allow his personal belief (or non-belief, for that matter) to interfere his teaching, and that he is willing to tell them his opinion and discuss all the relevant issues that his students are concerned with in a non-teaching setting, like after class. Emphasize that he will be honest to them by then, but in a classroom he should obey Rule 2. (By the way, I did criticize in an earlier post Mr Campbell for not doing so but sneaking in his belief (NOMA) into his class.)

In the after class setting, let's suppose you and your concerned family members are now in my office. So, what do you wanna know, Johnny? Which issues are bothering you?

-------------------------

Sciros: "Okay, you teach me false logic, I'll teach you grammar."

You have the right attitude already.

Other Comments by Smith

155. Comment #237860 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 10:28 am

 avatarbeeline,

Apologies accepted.

Other Comments by Smith

156. Comment #237862 by root2squared on August 27, 2008 at 10:43 am

 avatarI'd rather alienate students than teach a contaminated version of evolution which undermines science. Mainly because this would be doing a great disservice to the intelligent students in the class who are now being taught at the LCD.

Any encroachment of religion in science class should not be put up with. If it alienates the students who are arrogant enough to spout nonsense on a topic they know nothing about, well, we do need our minimum wage workers, don't we? No offense to them btw. Unless they do deny evolution.

The failure of such students to learn evolution is solely the responsibility of their parents/churches, not the teacher's.

Other Comments by root2squared

157. Comment #237863 by SteveN on August 27, 2008 at 10:47 am

 avatarSeveralspeciesof wrote:
If left in that context, with no other information, you are correct. But with a specific enough context, with enough information, you CAN disprove the existence of something.

Exactly! This is the point I was trying to make in my post (#237806) about the elephant in the room.

Other Comments by SteveN

158. Comment #237865 by Sciros on August 27, 2008 at 10:52 am

 avatarRE: Smith's post:
If the instructor is in the classroom, he should point out that he is not supposed to allow his personal belief (or non-belief, for that matter) to interfere his teaching, and that he is willing to tell them his opinion and discuss all the relevant issues that his students are concerned with in a non-teaching setting, like after class. Emphasize that he will be honest to them by then, but in a classroom he should obey Rule 2. (By the way, I did criticize in an earlier post Mr Campbell for not doing so but sneaking in his belief (NOMA) into his class.)

You seem to be implying that a "classroom setting" (as you define it) is to be the determinant of whether the teacher makes an attempt to establish a ground from which his/her students are comfortable with trying to learn evolution. During class hours, he/she must be "intellectually honest to him/herself" and make no compromises to get students like Bryce (from the article) to accept that it is okay to move forward with understanding evolution. And outside of class hours, the teacher can then say whatever.

I'm not sorry to say that this is nonsense, hypocrisy, and irresponsibility all rolled into one. For your alternative to be even close to as effective at making the maximum number of students understand evolution as Campbell's approach, you must assume that all students that take issue with evolution on the basis of their religious indoctrination will make the effort to reconcile these differences with the teacher outside of class hours. This assumption has no basis in fact; indeed the evidence is stacked very much against it, as in by far the majority of cases not all students struggling with class material spend any time outside of class with the instructor in an attempt to understand it, let alone accept it. Some do; not all.

In the after class setting, let's suppose you and your concerned family members are now in my office. So, what do you wanna know, Johnny? Which issues are bothering you?

So the teacher has restrictions on what to say "during class hours" to his/her students but not outside of them? This is on what grounds, exactly? The teacher is still the teacher, and the student is still the student. If you think the teacher is not responsible, or in any case not held responsible, for what he/she says to a student outside of class hours, then you're wrong. There is no such thing as a "non-teaching setting" when a student comes to an instructor with questions/concerns about class material. So your arbitrary delineation of when a teacher should be able to say certain things with regards to class material is in practice meaningless and at best can hope to accomplish as much as Campbell's approach.

To make this fully clear, consider an analogous scenario in which a biology instructor is required to teach evolution but doesn't believe it himself. The instructor, according to your rules, would say "I will only discuss scientific material in class, but if you want to know of my honest view on it all please see me outside of class." Well, the only reason this is more innocuous than the teacher just outright saying everything he really thinks about evolution right then and there in the classroom is that not all students will visit him after class to hear him preach about God. This is reality. It is reality for the same reasons that your approach of "talk to me after class if you have concerns" will keep more students alienated and unable to come to terms with evolution than with Campbell's "get through to students while in the classroom" approach.

Moving on to root2squared's post:
I'd rather alienate students than teach a contaminated version of evolution which undermines science. Mainly because this would be doing a great disservice to the intelligent students in the class who are now being taught at the LCD.

This is wrong on both counts. You're not contaminating evolution -- Stephen Jay Gould did not study a "contaminated" version of evolution. What you're doing is shrinking religion's realm, pushing it far enough out of the domain of biology as to have students be comfortable with understanding evolution who are reluctant to do away with their theism altogether. At worst, you are "contaminating" fundamentalist religion.

The second count you're wrong on is that this approach undermines the education of the atheist students (not "intelligent" -- there are many stupid atheists out there, as we are all aware). It doesn't. Those students don't become deist or whatever on account of the instructor invoking NOMA in the classroom. The classroom material is not changed or "dumbed down" to accomodate anyone.

Any encroachment of religion in science class should not be put up with. If it alienates the students who are arrogant enough to spout nonsense on a topic they know nothing about, well, we do need our minimum wage workers, don't we? No offense to them btw. Unless they do deny evolution.

Yes, let's deny children education on principle! If they're too stubborn to learn about evolution without being told that it doesn't force them to atheism, then they don't deserve to learn about evolution. Minimum wage workers, nice. Keep them stupid and keep them poor. I STRONGLY disagree with your stance on this, and I find it indefensible.

The failure of such students to learn evolution is solely the responsibility of their parents/churches, not the teacher's.
Teachers are not ultimately responsible for the success or failure of any student, but those whose students fail to learn may as well not be teachers at all. Maybe they should be the minimum wage workers you mention. Teachers are there to provide our children with as good an education as possible, and I find inability to teach a subject "on principle" to be, well, "educational treason" whether that principle is theistic or secular. "I refuse to teach evolution because my convictions are at odds with it" is to me ultimately as irresponsible as "I cannot adequately teach evolution because my convictions are at odds with effective teaching methods."

Other Comments by Sciros

159. Comment #237868 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 11:04 am

 avatarbeeline: "I don't think you can (1) disprove the existence of something claimed to exist. And I don't think you can (2) equate the meaninglessness of the claim as disproof either."

For (1), I invite you to reread the relevant post (118. Comment #237711). I think you missed "so defined" in your first perusal.

For (2), I simply did not do that. Please check the second possibility in (142. Comment #237814).

beeline: "Point 2 is exactly what NOMA addresses - you can't make any logical certainties around a 'meaningless claim'..."

It seems to me you misconstrue NOMA. But that's not my business any more...

Other Comments by Smith

160. Comment #237873 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 11:12 am

 avatarSciros,

I think I'm very clear by stating the premise:

"When the instructor is asked to affirm or deny the existence of God:"

I invite you to calm down, and maybe we can start anew?

Other Comments by Smith

161. Comment #237877 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 11:21 am

 avatarSciros,

Only the first two quotes of your post (159. Comment #237865) are mine.

Personally, I'm okay to be critizised for what I said. I take that it's only a careless mistake?

Other Comments by Smith

162. Comment #237878 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 11:22 am

 avatar
"Can anybody think of a question science can't answer?"

"Are there invisible pink unicorns?" shot back a boy near the window.

"Good," said Mr. Campbell "...Can't test it. Can't prove it, can't disprove it. It's not a question for science."


I switched the subject from god to the IPU, because I think they're the same thing in the context of this discussion.

These silly little magic beings, in a very practical sense, really are NOT a question for science, IMO. Sure science could waste valuable resources and minds trying to disprove IPU's, but why bother? Obviously, Campbell's personal god (if he has one at all - going to church most Sundays is certainly not proof that he's a theist) must be this type of god or he would not be teaching evolution. Anyone who believes in evolution strongly enough to put his life and career on the line certainly doesn't believe in the kind of god that science can touch (yet).

I think that people who persist in saying hat Mr. Campbell is wimping out under the pretense of NOMA are failing to see the forest for the trees and should be ashamed for picking on him for his very vague reference to NOMA. (I'm still not convinced that his response to the "is there a god?" question is the same NOMA we're arguing here anyway).

If you insist that high school science teachers can and should challenge the existence of this extremely impotent deity, then I feel that you are being too greedy and unrealistic.

NOMA is a multifaceted topic and to insist that everyone should agree that NOMA has no business in a high school biology class is very nearsighted, IMO.

Other Comments by bamafreethinker

163. Comment #237880 by Sciros on August 27, 2008 at 11:23 am

 avatarSmith, that premise was merely an example I gave of certain subjects that are "difficult" for a teacher to answer honestly in class, as it may alienate (if only partially) a fraction of the class. You're right that such a question should be set aside for a time where the instructor risks alienating as few students with the answer as possible. (Although it should be noted that the answer will circulate among other students; they always inevitably do.)

However, there are certain questions that, if answered in a particular way, will actually keep students from getting alienated. The question, "is it true that evolution disagrees with religion?" is such a question. By invoking a concept like NOMA in class, the teacher is able to prevent the maximum number of students with these concerns from being alienated and helps them move closer to being comfortable with the reality of evolution. By the way, and this is probably important to note, I do not know of any evidence that suggests invoking NOMA compromises the education of deist/atheist/agnostic students. If they are not atheist but accept evolution, they have clearly accepted something like NOMA already. If they are atheist, a concept like NOMA will not be sufficient to either shake their convictions nor their confidence in the instructor. So, it's a low-risk, high-reward approach that maximizes the number of students that are able to understand the valuable and important concept of evolution. Given this, I think criticisms of the approach are short-sighted.

EDIT: I should make more clear who I am quoting and responding to, perhaps. In any case it is safe to assume that the person I am quoting is the person I am responding to, and I haven't mixed them up ^_^ So, where I quote you, I respond to you. And where I quoted root2squared, I responded to root2squared. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

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164. Comment #237886 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 11:28 am

 avatarSteveN and severalspeciesof,

I've a feeling that somehow "you can't prove a negative" has become a dogma of sort. I'd blame Bertrand Russell for that.

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165. Comment #237890 by Quine on August 27, 2008 at 11:32 am

 avatarNOMA can be applied when the deity or deities are of the non-interacting kind (in there with the pink unicorns). However, as soon as there is any interaction attributed to the supernatural, NOMA goes by the wayside.

IMHO, teachers should simply state the fact that the evidence we find is not consistent with (insert ref to religious text here). This is not the same as telling a student that his/her religion is wrong, and in some cases may cause a student to look into the origin of the religious text in question to try to resolve the inconsistency.

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166. Comment #237891 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 11:33 am

 avatarComment #237862 by root2squared

I'd rather alienate students than teach a contaminated version of evolution which undermines science.


What part of "science cannot disprove god" undermines evolution?

.
Any encroachment of religion in science class should not be put up with. .


What part of "science cannot disprove god" encroaches upon science class (in any meaningful way)?

So alienating the students who didn't believe in evolution to start with so that the students who already understand it don't have to hear "Science can't disprove god" is the best approach - priceless!

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167. Comment #237894 by Sciros on August 27, 2008 at 11:35 am

 avatarQuine, the question at hand is how to approach those students who actually need to be warmed up to the idea of evolution, rather than just "not driven away." The question of how to deal with students who have been indoctrinated against understanding evolution, let alone accepting it.

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168. Comment #237896 by beeline on August 27, 2008 at 11:36 am

 avatarSmith wrote:
For (1), I invite you to reread the relevant post (118. Comment #237711). I think you missed "so defined" in your first perusal.


I don't see how 'so defined' allows it to be a disproof of existence. A particular property failing to be apparent is not disrpoof of its existence as a property, nor of the entity to which it has been ascribed. Again, absence of evidence is not proof of absence.

Also, the definition of the properties of the dragon is not complete (and will never be complete), and this is what protects the 'existence of God - he cannot be defined. It's why in several sects you aren't even allowed to mention His name or depict Him - because you may not deign to define him. Science has no tools to deal with this kind of sliding, infinite-regression non-rationality, so it shouldn't even try. It's a waste of time.

Every who encountered the dragon claimer would come to the same conclusion: it's a waste of time asking any more questions because the answers will be the same. This is not disproof, though, which is why it's so frustrating, and why the playground tease is so effective: "I know secret X" ... "Tell me" ... "No" ... "You don't know it!" ... "Yes I do" ... and so on.

Have I missed the point? I'm not sure I understand your interpretation of NOMA otherwise.

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169. Comment #237905 by root2squared on August 27, 2008 at 11:46 am

 avatar
This is wrong on both counts. You're not contaminating evolution -- Stephen Jay Gould did not study a "contaminated" version of evolution. What you're doing is shrinking religion's realm, pushing it far enough out of the domain of biology as to have students be comfortable with understanding evolution who are reluctant to do away with their theism altogether. At worst, you are "contaminating" fundamentalist religion.

The second count you're wrong on is that this approach undermines the education of the atheist students (not "intelligent" -- there are many stupid atheists out there, as we are all aware). It doesn't. Those students don't become deist or whatever on account of the instructor invoking NOMA in the classroom. The classroom material is not changed or "dumbed down" to accomodate anyone.


I thing NOMA is completely incorrect. By not refuting anything supernatural in a science class you are indirectly undermining science. This means that the students who are not religious nutcases may suffer because now they think it is ok to fill in gaps with "God did it". Evolution is just one scientific theory, and it should be taught as one. You don't have angels moving around atoms to support the theory of gravity, do you? So the scientific method is being contaminated.

Yes, let's deny children education on principle! If they're too stubborn to learn about evolution without being told that it doesn't force them to atheism, then they don't deserve to learn about evolution. Minimum wage workers, nice. Keep them stupid and keep them poor. I STRONGLY disagree with your stance on this, and I find it indefensible.

Teachers are not ultimately responsible for the success or failure of any student, but those whose students fail to learn may as well not be teachers at all. Maybe they should be the minimum wage workers you mention. Teachers are there to provide our children with as good an education as possible, and I find inability to teach a subject "on principle" to be, well, "educational treason" whether that principle is theistic or secular. "I refuse to teach evolution because my convictions are at odds with it" is to me ultimately as irresponsible as "I cannot adequately teach evolution because my convictions are at odds with effective teaching methods.


It's not a matter of principle. It's a matter of the quality of the education. By allowing superstitious nonsense to go unchallenged, you are lowering standards. This is not fair to other students.

Also, I'm not the one keeping them Stupid and Poor. Their parents are. I find it ridiculous to thrust the child's responsibility on teachers. This is why we have so much censorship: Because of lazy parents who do not want to take responsibility for their children.

bamafreethinker
What part of "science cannot disprove god" undermines evolution?


See above bit above not refuting supernatural nonsense in science class

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170. Comment #237909 by epeeist on August 27, 2008 at 11:53 am

 avatarComment #237896 by beeline
Also, the definition of the properties of the dragon is not complete (and will never be complete), and this is what protects the 'existence of God - he cannot be defined. It's why in several sects you aren't even allowed to mention His name or depict Him - because you may not deign to define him. Science has no tools to deal with this kind of sliding, infinite-regression non-rationality, so it shouldn't even try. It's a waste of time.
You might not be able to provide an empirical disproof, but this does not mean to say that it is a waste of time.

Look for posts by MPhil and Steve Zara's debate with Bnonn Tennant for some disproofs of gods with logically inconsistent properties. The demonstration that the Trinity is logically contradictory is particularly nice. This is on Steve's blog (http://zarbi.livejournal.com/?skip=100 will get you close). There is also a nice post by MPhil that shows that the idea of omnipotence is fairly iffy too.

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171. Comment #237912 by Quine on August 27, 2008 at 11:55 am

 avatarComment #237894 by Sciros:
Quine, the question at hand is how to approach those students who actually need to be warmed up to the idea of evolution, rather than just "not driven away." The question of how to deal with students who have been indoctrinated against understanding evolution, let alone accepting it.


I start from the "not driven away" position. Yes, I would like to get to the "warmed up" area, however, I am very reluctant to support anything that involves telling half truths, or dodging difficult questions to get there. The three most important words on this subject are "tell the truth." This is why I stress consistency or non consistency with evidence as the supportable truth that establishes the necessary relationship of trust.

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172. Comment #237913 by irate_atheist on August 27, 2008 at 11:56 am

 avatar169. Comment #237896 by beeline -
It's why in several sects you aren't even allowed to mention His name or depict Him - because you may not deign to define him. Science has no tools to deal with this kind of sliding, infinite-regression non-rationality, so it shouldn't even try.
I disagree. The twelve-bore, for example, is a very good tool.

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173. Comment #237915 by irate_atheist on August 27, 2008 at 11:59 am

 avatar171. Comment #237909 by epeeist -

Besides which, the statement that it's end-to-end bollocks, often clinches the argument.

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174. Comment #237918 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 12:01 pm

 avatarComment #237905 by root2squared

Oh... I didn't realize that we had already proven that god does not exist. Sorry, I must have missed the post on RD.net : )

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175. Comment #237922 by root2squared on August 27, 2008 at 12:04 pm

 avatarSciros

Yes, let's deny children education on principle! If they're too stubborn to learn about evolution without being told that it doesn't force them to atheism, then they don't deserve to learn about evolution. Minimum wage workers, nice. Keep them stupid and keep them poor. I STRONGLY disagree with your stance on this, and I find it indefensible.


I find it morally indefensible that you would be willing to allow not only the propogation of a meme that is so harmful to society, but to actually allow it to infect others too, simply so that some arrogant parents' children have a half baked understanding of evolution.

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176. Comment #237924 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 12:07 pm

 avatarSciros,

My laptop got unplugged, and I have to retype everything again. It'd take awhile.

Meanwhile, I wanna point out that I never say "NOMA compromises the education of deist/atheist/agnostic students." This may be someone else's stance. (I saw a lots of "compromise" floating around in the last page.) I criticize Mr Campbell for bringing his personal belief (NOMA) into classroom. Surely, you are free to criticize me for doing just that!

----------------------

beeline,

It seems that we are talking thru each other. Let's NOMA ourselves on this issue.

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177. Comment #237925 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 12:11 pm

 avatarComment #237922 by root2squared

Please explain what part of Campbell's approach will leave students with a half-baked understanding of evolution?

Is it evolution = strong atheism or nothing?

What if your religion posits that an alien planted the first replicating cell on earth 6 billion years ago and then left it do run its course? What part of that belief system will limit in any shape form or fashion your ability to accept and understand every facet of evolution?

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178. Comment #237932 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 12:31 pm

 avatarSciros,

I thought you are into that teacher-student game. And so I started with my post (155. Comment #237859). I even called you Johnny!

Well, it turned out you are not and took my said post as an omni-reply to all your concerns. I can see why you get a little bit emotional at some point in your reply.

To make it clear, I'm not a practical cat, just someone who values principles first. Maybe it turns out my Rules 1-4 are just some impractical bullshit at the end.

To preempt you from assigning positions to me that are not actually mine, and hence saving me from responding to them, I would sincerely suggest you to run the following thought experiment: (1) Imagine you are a teacher that upholds the four rules that I promulgated in the last page. (2) See how far you can get.

Yours Truly

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179. Comment #237933 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 12:33 pm

 avatarCampbell is apparently trying his best to teach evolution the best he can with what he's got. It seems that some posters will only be happy if he (and the rest of high school teachers) also becomes an evangelical atheist and tells the religious kids that science has destroyed all forms of religion. Do you guys really think this is practical - or just the way you wish it was? Are you not okay with people who want to hang on to a deistic god if it makes them happy? Will you not rest until every human on the planet is a full-blown, I-know-there-is-no-god atheist? A religion that is totally harmless to society and science should be a person's own business. Most people who understand and accept evolution are well on there way to becoming a harmless. pro-science, productive member of society. Campbell's way of handling his class is an extremely important first step in deconstructing the harmful parts of religion.

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180. Comment #237939 by Smith on August 27, 2008 at 12:45 pm

 avatar"some posters" ... interesting!

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181. Comment #237943 by Bonzai on August 27, 2008 at 12:52 pm

Quine

NOMA can be applied when the deity or deities are of the non-interacting kind (in there with the pink unicorns). However, as soon as there is any interaction attributed to the supernatural, NOMA goes by the way


It seems that you (and some others) and I have a different understanding of NOMA.

To my mind NOMA requires religion to hold up its end of the bargain as well. As soon as it intrudes into the realm of science,i.e, making any statement about the natural world it oversteps its very tiny "magisteria". In that way I don't see it as a kind of appeasement to religion like many here do, but drawing a line in the sand.

To truly follow NOMA, religion would have to be so castrated that it can only talk about things which have absolutely no relevance in this world.

I think Gould is being treated very unfairly on this site by Dawkins partisans.

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182. Comment #237948 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 12:58 pm

 avatarSmith,

"some posters..."

I know that was lame, I didn't want to miss anyone or include anyone by mistake : )

This seems to be a principle vs practical issue and in principle I guess I'd agree with you (and the others : ) for the most part - I just don't think it's practical.

I have really enjoyed the discussion BTW.

Bama

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183. Comment #237949 by Quine on August 27, 2008 at 1:00 pm

 avatarBonzai, I agree with you on the theoretical scope of NOMA as you stated. That is why I allow it for the invisible pink unicorn class. Having said that, I do not think Gould is being treated unfairly because he knew perfectly well that no religion practiced on this earth was in that class.

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184. Comment #237955 by Bonzai on August 27, 2008 at 1:04 pm

Quine

Having said that, I do not think Gould is being treated unfairly because he knew perfectly well that no religion practiced on this earth was in that class.


I am not aware that he said any religion actually fulfills its end of the deal, but he was saying that they should.

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185. Comment #237982 by root2squared on August 27, 2008 at 1:26 pm

 avatarbamafreethinker

Please explain what part of Campbell's approach will leave students with a half-baked understanding of evolution?

Is it evolution = strong atheism or nothing?

What if your religion posits that an alien planted the first replicating cell on earth 6 billion years ago and then left it do run its course? What part of that belief system will limit in any shape form or fashion your ability to accept and understand every facet of evolution?


You keep ignoring my main point. Of course science cannot disprove god's existence. Only an idiot would think that.

My main point is when you're teaching evolution, you're also teaching the scientific method. You are teaching science. If you allow supernatural explanations to intersect with the natural domain of science, you are teaching science incorrectly.

If for instance in phsyics class a student says he/she believes that the movement of atoms are regulated by invisible angels, then according to you, the teacher should say, yes that's certainly possible. And yes, theoretically, it is. This is the teapot thing. The question is how much of this kind of nonsense are you going to put up with?

By allowing for explanations such as "God started evolution" you are making science which is something of clarity and beauty into 'a pick and choose' thing. If God started evolution, can he not also interfere in it? So maybe those "gaps" in the fossils are because god intervened. This is the kind of thinking that should never originate from a science class. As professor Dawkins himself says, the question of whether god exists is a scientific one.

This is what I mean by half-baked evolution, one that can be changed at will by supernatural beings.

I am not advocating evangelical atheism in class. But in a science class, if religion is put forth as an explanation for anything it should be treated with exactly the same disdain that any scientific theory with zero evidence is treated.

If you respond, please address my main concern as I have outlined instead of insulting comments such as "Oh... I didn't realize that we had already proven that god does not exist. Sorry, I must have missed the post on RD.net : )"

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186. Comment #237994 by Sciros on August 27, 2008 at 1:35 pm

 avatar
I thing NOMA is completely incorrect. By not refuting anything supernatural in a science class you are indirectly undermining science.

Science classes are intended to teach the material that is in their curricula. That curricula does not, in general, include explicitly refuting religious doctrine. The directives aren't something like "while teaching evolution, be sure to point out at least 10 inconsistencies in the Bible."

This means that the students who are not religious nutcases may suffer because now they think it is ok to fill in gaps with "God did it".

So you are saying it is the burden/responsibility of the science teachers to undo religious indoctrination.

Evolution is just one scientific theory, and it should be taught as one. You don't have angels moving around atoms to support the theory of gravity, do you? So the scientific method is being contaminated.

To say that religion does not contradict evolution means that given religion as the teacher understands it, evolution falls outside its domain. Nothing supernatural is invoked while teaching evolution, period.

I don't know how much clearer this fact can be: invoking NOMA takes religion out of the picture, not the other way around.

Do you think that when a teacher says "religion and science are mutually exclusive" (NOMA) that means he is allowing for a supernatural origin of life or a supernatural driver for gene selection? Of course not! All NOMA serves to do in such cases is keep students from feeling "threatened by atheism" while studying evolution and other scientific concepts.

You may say that the idea of NOMA doesn't actually go together with an "interventionist god," and you would be right -- but the idea of NOMA is indeed that god is NOT interventionist. When the teacher invokes NOMA, he is advocating at worst a much... milder form of religion than what fundamentalist students were brought up with.

I find it morally indefensible that you would be willing to allow not only the propogation of a meme that is so harmful to society, but to actually allow it to infect others too, simply so that some arrogant parents' children have a half baked understanding of evolution.

Are you joking? To begin, you have no evidence to show that students of any religious inclination, including none at all walk away from biology class with a "half-baked understanding of evolution" when NOMA is invoked (which I think it is in very, very many classrooms). Furthermore, you've got a pretty tall order to fill when you claim that NOMA is "a meme so harmful to society." In addition, you have no evidence to suggest that a science teacher invoking NOMA causes it to "infect others" when those others aren't even more religious to begin with. And finally, what is with the whole "arrogant parents" deal? If anyone here is arrogant, it's mister "we need minimum wage workers after all."

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187. Comment #237995 by Quine on August 27, 2008 at 1:35 pm

 avatarComment #237982 by root2squared:
But in a science class, if religion is put forth as an explanation for anything it should be treated with exactly the same disdain that any scientific theory with zero evidence is treated.


It is, actually, worse than that. Part of science is the quest to find out how much of the world can be explained without recourse to the supernatural. Keeping to the evidence is necessary at every step to answer this. Some people criticize science for rejecting the supernatural, but do not understand that we want to find out how far we can get before something comes up that cannot be from natural causes.

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188. Comment #237999 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 1:37 pm

 avatarBonzai

I agree, and my main argument has been this: The god that Campbell says cannot be tested, proven, disproved, etc., is the kind of god that NOMA becomes valid when applied, and that Campbell is essentially NOT playing the NOMA card as comprehensively as some are implying, IMO.

Campbell's god is obviously different (more Spinoza's-like) than the god of the fundies in his class or he would be one of them.

Science may prove that god doesn't exist, but if god-believers sit around with their fingers in their ears and refuse to use their brains, science will be as impotent (in their case) as their god. You can't just insist that people use their brains - they need guidance and training - especially those who have grown up indoctrinated the way many have (believe me... I know!) Throw them in the deep end and they will likely sink. If Campbell does his job, there will be fewer Idiots in this world, thanks to him!

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189. Comment #238021 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2008 at 2:01 pm

 avatarroot2squared

Where does Campbell leave the door open for "guided" evolution?

I read nothing in the article that leads me to think that?


[Campbell] "Science explores nature by testing and gathering data," he said. "It can't tell you what's right and wrong. It doesn't address ethics. But it is not anti-religion. Science and religion just ask different questions."

"Can anybody think of a question science can't answer?"

"Is there a God?" shot back a boy near the window.

"Good," said Mr. Campbell, an Anglican who attends church most Sundays. "Can't test it. Can't prove it, can't disprove it. It's not a question for science."


This is a live, real-time discussion. Campbell didn't have time to think exactly what he was going to say, proof-read his responses, and change it to cover all the possible bases.

Where exactly do you think Campbell went wrong?

I was just trying to be funny with the "I missed the post" comment... didn't mean to be disrespectful. Perhaps we're slightly misaligned on the argument. Edit: My whole point is that PZ was wrong in criticizing Campbell for his soft, chicken-hearted (in PZ's opinion) tactics.

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190. Comment #238043 by Quine on August 27, 2008 at 2:25 pm

 avatarComment #237955 by Bonzai:
... but he was saying that they should.

"Should'a, would'a, could'a"; when I first read your comment I thought that it sounded like a couple of business partners who had just signed a non competition agreement, and one turns to the other and says, "to keep your end of the deal, you should shoot yourself in the head."

However, now that I think about it, I am seeing that you may have a very good idea as applied to the actual situation in which the religious folks keep bringing up Gould and NOMA. What if, every time they do, we did let them know that to keep their end they would have to take all interaction with the real world out of their teachings? No six day creation, no A&E + talking snake, no great flood, no parting of the Red Sea, etc. What would they do? I suspect they would quietly drop NOMA. Then Gould could rest in peace and we would not have to have this discussion again and again.

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191. Comment #238058 by root2squared on August 27, 2008 at 2:37 pm

 avatarSciros

Science classes are intended to teach the material that is in their curricula. That curricula does not, in general, include explicitly refuting religious doctrine. The directives aren't something like "while teaching evolution, be sure to point out at least 10 inconsistencies in the Bible."


Very funny. But science classes are also meant to teach the scientific method and science. So an evolution class has to include not only an understanding of evolution i.e the mechanism, but also the way you arrive at an understanding of the mechanism, i.e the scientific method.


So you are saying it is the burden/responsibility of the science teachers to undo religious indoctrination.

No, I did not say that. You are putting up strawmen. However, if a student says in a science class that god started evolution, the teacher has to disagree because from a scientific view, this claim has zero evidence. Again, this is where religion encroaches on science.

You may say that the idea of NOMA doesn't actually go together with an "interventionist god," and you would be right -- but the idea of NOMA is indeed that god is NOT interventionist. When the teacher invokes NOMA, he is advocating at worst a much... milder form of religion than what fundamentalist students were brought up with.


This is complete and utter nonsense. By merely acknowledging that god is non-interventionist, you are implicitly acknowledging that god exists. And how on earth can you claim that if god exists, he doesn't intervene? After all, religion says he always does. This is a direct conflict. This means you have introduced the possibility of god in science. Just saying he does not intervene is too foolish an argument to address. You can't make up arbitrary rules that are in anyway touch upon science.

Are you joking? To begin, you have no evidence to show that students of any religious inclination, including none at all walk away from biology class with a "half-baked understanding of evolution" when NOMA is invoked (which I think it is in very, very many classrooms). Furthermore, you've got a pretty tall order to fill when you claim that NOMA is "a meme so harmful to society." In addition, you have no evidence to suggest that a science teacher invoking NOMA causes it to "infect others" when those others aren't even more religious to begin with. And finally, what is with the whole "arrogant parents" deal? If anyone here is arrogant, it's mister "we need minimum wage workers after all."


No, I usually post my jokes in the humor forum. I did not mean NOMA is a meme harmful to society, but religion is. To repeat for the 3rd time, it is not merely important that students learn how evolution works, but also the underlying mechanism used in learning this.

If you are a parent who claims to know the exact nature of the universe and have an imaginary friend and are going to argue against scientists who spend their life studying, doing research, then you are arrogant. How is that not clear? How am I more arrogant than someone who claims to know everything without any evidence. Is it not a fact of life that some people are stupid. It is sad, but they are. Stating this fact does not make me arrogant. And I did say the parents were arrogant, not the students, who have been merely brainwashed. But if you are old enough to have children, and you still are going to teach your students creation, then yes, you are arrogant and stupid, and it is likely that their children will not have too bright a future.

If you respond, do let me know if you're a religious person. If so, I don't think there is any point in our having a discussion.

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192. Comment #238069 by root2squared on August 27, 2008 at 2:44 pm

 avatarbamafreethinker

I was just trying to be funny with the "I missed the post" comment... didn't mean to be disrespectful. Perhaps we're slightly misaligned on the argument. Edit: My whole point is that PZ was wrong in criticizing Campbell for his soft, chicken-hearted (in PZ's opinion) tactics.


In that case, I apologize. I thought you meant it as a put-down.

In any case, I did mention in my first post itself, that I do not blame the teacher because it's a scary situation for him; he could get fired for saying anything against religion.

My main argument was something quite different as you can seem from my last post to you.

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193. Comment #238088 by Sciros on August 27, 2008 at 3:04 pm

 avatar
No, I did not say that. You are putting up strawmen. However, if a student says in a science class that god started evolution, the teacher has to disagree because from a scientific view, this claim has zero evidence. Again, this is where religion encroaches on science.

I think we're speaking at cross-purposes, then. You say teachers should disagree with religion. Well, they do when confronted with it, but they do it in as non-threatening a way as they can. So indeed they usually say "there is no evidence for X" rather than "religion is bullshit gwarrr!" ^_^ I understood what you wrote as saying that teachers are responsible for making such statements even unprovoked.

This is complete and utter nonsense. By merely acknowledging that god is non-interventionist, you are implicitly acknowledging that god exists. And how on earth can you claim that if god exists, he doesn't intervene? After all, religion says he always does. This is a direct conflict. This means you have introduced the possibility of god in science. Just saying he does not intervene is too foolish an argument to address. You can't make up arbitrary rules that are in anyway touch upon science.

I don't think you know what the idea of non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA) is. NOMA does NOT reconcile well with anyone's religious stance except maybe that of deists. NOMA explicitly states that god has no place in science. Seriously I don't understand why you're arguing against the stance that religion should not encroach on science (NOMA) in the way that you are. The concept of NOMA's effect on classrooms with religious children is, if anything, beneficial, and this can be demonstrated.

By the way it should probably be clear that I am not a religious person, nor do I think that NOMA actually makes sense, because the domain of science is, in a way, *everything* and that leaves *nothing* for religion. 0% and 100% don't overlap indeed but it's not a very useful philosophy. (You don't even really see NOMA in practice ever since religion invariably makes claims about reality, and let's face it: reality is entirely within the domain of science.) But the concept of NOMA does promote the idea that if a god even exists, it is so non-interventionist that religion does not end up at odds with any scientific learning for all intents and purposes.

It sounds to me that you feel threatened by the concept of NOMA, or that you think science is, but if you actually understood what NOMA is, I don't think you would feel that way. NOMA, if anything, takes religion out of the picture.

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194. Comment #238149 by Bonzai on August 27, 2008 at 4:24 pm

root2square

You are teaching science. If you allow supernatural explanations to intersect with the natural domain of science, you are teaching science incorrectly.


How does NOMA allow supernatural explanations to intersect with science??!! "NO" in NOMA means "Non Overlapping", as in mutually exclusive. This means exactly that religion has no place in science.

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