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Monday, October 27, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments |

Document Children need to be sprinkled with fairy dust

by Libby Purves, Times Online

Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/libby_purves/article5019221.ece

When we are young we use our fantasy world of magic and myth to grapple with fears about life, death and danger

I had made a resolution not to type the words “Richard Dawkins” ever again. Last time I tried remonstrating, quite mildly, with that honest atheist, he went ape and accused me of acquiring my views “over canapés” in “Islington and Hampstead Garden Suburb”. As a peace-loving woman I told my computer to issue a siren alert if ever I got as far as “Dawk-”. It has failed. Here we go again: but this time in pure approbation.

We owe Professor Dawkins a debt of gratitude for the latest cultural can of worms he has prised open. Under the misleading headline in another newspaper of “Dawkins warns over ‘pernicious' fairy tales”, we learn that he is writing a book for children explaining how scientific thinking contrasts with myths, and that he plans to look at the effect of books and stories about spells and wizards. Look at the matter, please note: not condemn Harry Potter and Santa unheard. “I don't know what to think about magic and fairy tales,” he says thoughtfully. “It is anti-scientific - whether that has a pernicious effect, I don't know... many of the stories I read in childhood allowed the possibility of frogs turning into princes. Whether that has a sort of insidious effect on rationality, I'm not sure. Perhaps it's something for research.”

Excellent. He wants children to “look at evidence”, but is willing to do the same himself, and accepts that reading about frog princes didn't ruin his career as a biologist by making him spend fruitless decades in the lab, pointing wands at frogs.

When he does start on the literature of fairytales, scanning Bettelheim's The Uses of Enchantment, Otto Rank's study of hero myths, Buhler's analysis of the psychological connection between developing imagination and fairytales, Jockel on symbolism and the rest, he will look at their theories and case studies with scientific interest. Biologists and psychologists don't always get on all that well, but there is an intelligent literature on the subject, worth reading.

On the whole, serious students of child development conclude that far-fetched magical stories play an important part in the developing mental life of young children; and that normal children easily distinguish stories from reality. When, aged three, you talk to your teddybear, you do not really expect an answer. But it's still fun. When you tremble with fear at the wolf's approach, safe on your mother's lap, you are preparing yourself to face real fears and trials with calm. Healthy children enjoy sentences beginning “Let's pretend...”. Some of their pretences are bloodcurdling, but a normal child knows what's real. “Bang, you're dead,” said one of mine, adding “Not really dead, just bang dead.”

The questing scientist will learn still more by meeting actual children, parents, and children's authors such as Philip Pullman who - while famously tough on bossy clerics - values myth and fairytale highly and never hesitates to introduce an armoured polar-bear into his narrative. There are certainly a lot of cultural influences and interdicts tangled up in traditional myths and fairytales, and some are dated, sexist, cruelly moralistic or vengeful. But parents and societies can choose whichever magical tales suit their values. It is not the magic itself which does damage. And children - intensely attuned to the human need for comfort and fantasy - tend these things themselves. One boy of nine confided to his mother before Christmas that he had actually sussed Santa, “But I don't think Dad's quite ready to know that I know, so don't tell him.”

The reason I am delighted at Professor Dawkins' investigation, therefore, is that I am pretty sure his intelligence will bring him to the same conclusion as the psychologists: that a bit of magic and fantasy in childhood is useful and helps you to grapple with your fears about life, death, peril and chance. It may even (to be flippant for a moment) serve to keep future laymen's minds open to the more provable marvels of science. If you've played at invisible fairy-dust, you may have acquired the kind of counter-intuitive mental flexibility required to accept what goes on in the Large Hadron Collider.

The uses of enchantment and myth need to be reiterated and examined because there is a worrying modern tide of thought that says that children must be allowed only dull bald truth. One online essayist, typical of many, writes: “If I have children I shall spare them such nonsense. It's not just the happily ever after element that's damaging... we are civilised societies in a quest for advancements in science and technology. We need to eradicate superstitions. Children should learn that only through hard work, perseverance and patience do their dreams come true - not magic.”

I wouldn't hire her as a babysitter. Not if she can't understand that luck and chance exist as much as just deserts, and that the courage of the seventh son or the gentle powerlessness of Cinderella might inspire a child to effort and kindness rather more effectively than her dreary sermonising.

Others excoriate poor old Santa - ultimate symbol of a jokily benign universe - and worry that Harry Potter makes children believe in spells and hexes. Very patronising, that: especially when the same adults flock to films about James Bond, who never existed and whose faux-tech gadgets wouldn't work any better than a wand and broomstick. They probably also enjoy a rush of irrational pleasure when watching a really good close-up conjurer “doing” impossible things - pushing bottles through tables and cigarettes through coins. We know it's not real and yet we see it: thus we are temporarily released from the iron corset of reason, even as we laugh at ourselves for being fooled. Feels good.

Magic is useful. Myths are helpful, pointing at truths which are all the deeper for not being literal. Neither is a threat to scientific understanding. Let children cast off their clouds of glory at their own pace. In Christina Hardyment's history of childcare writing, Dream Babies, I found this marvellous line from a 1903 book on the nursery craze: “There are unhappy children who are studied all day long, who must perforce and in gangs shape something out of grey India rubber, and sit at a table to do it. What do they know, poor things, of the joys and terrors to be found in a dwarf-infested shrubbery, just at sunset, on a chill October day...?”

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1. Comment #272062 by Ian Edmond on October 27, 2008 at 12:24 am

 avatar"Last time I tried remonstrating, quite mildly, with that honest atheist, he went ape [...]"

Let us remind ourselves that the last time she "tried remonstrating" with Richard, she said, about the fossil-hunting school trip in the first part of The Genius of Charles Darwin:

"The moment one of them found an ammonite on the beach, Professor Dawkins demanded instant atheism."

Which was an outright falsehood.

Other Comments by Ian Edmond

2. Comment #272065 by Adrian Bartholomew on October 27, 2008 at 12:35 am

 avatarQuote: there is a worrying modern tide of thought that says that children must be allowed only dull bald truth.

The above is the entire problem. Fairy tales and stories are great but the TRUTH about the REAL WORLD should never be seen as DULL!

Other Comments by Adrian Bartholomew

3. Comment #272067 by Lumifish on October 27, 2008 at 12:40 am

 avatarI'm generally inclined to agree with this. Science fiction was always my first love, but I used to be quite fond of high fantasy, and even as a small child it never occurred to me that it was representative of the real world. Later on I would often have a great deal of fun trying to invent scientific models to explain the unusual physical behaviours of these alternate universes. Good fantasy settings generally do not disagree with the scientific method, just the particular environment in which that method is applied.

That said, there does exist a number of children that actually believe in the existence of certain fantasy universes. But in my opinion that is no more reflective of the genre itself than 'quantum healing' is of quantum mechanics. Children should be taught general skepticism, but that does not preclude interactions with far-fetched fiction (indeed, it is often useful to have a standard by which to judge the patently false!).

Other Comments by Lumifish

4. Comment #272068 by Laurie Fraser on October 27, 2008 at 12:45 am

 avatarThis woman is a complete fuckwit. That's all I need to say.

Other Comments by Laurie Fraser

5. Comment #272073 by DanDare on October 27, 2008 at 12:56 am

 avatarI quickly progressed from Santa to Peter Pan and then on to "Have Space Suit, Will Travel". I have an active fantasy life as well as an inspired imagination. I never had a moment of disillusionment when I left Santa behind.

I think examination of the roll fantasy and imagination plays in both our development and adult lives is a great idea. It may show ways to enhance our appreciation of exciting and wonderful reality.

Other Comments by DanDare

6. Comment #272074 by Dr Doctor on October 27, 2008 at 1:05 am

 avatarI suspect that her original byline for her last article on Dr Dawkins was "The Nutty Professor" and she was told to change it to "naive".

She obviously thinks she has a position whereby she has a right to remonstrate. This arrogance is funny enough, but for her then to use the description of Dr Dawkins response shows exactly how much it got to her.

The woman is a fool, and a fraud.

Other Comments by Dr Doctor

7. Comment #272075 by Richard Dawkins on October 27, 2008 at 1:06 am

 avatarThe day after my valedictory Simonyi Lecture, I gave an interview to Channel Four news. The interviewer asked me my view on whether fairy tales might have a pernicious effect on the educational development of children (I can’t remember his exact words, but that was the gist). My answer – that I didn’t know, and it would be interesting to do research on the question – was picked up by the Daily Telegraph (referring to me as Professor Hawkins) and it is presumably this account, or a similar one, that Libby Purves has read:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/3255972/Harry-Potter-fails-to-cast-spell-over-Professor-Richard-Dawkins.html

There are times when intuition and anecdote are not good enough, and we have to turn to research. Most people have an intuitive answer to the question of whether the death penalty deters murder. And to the question of whether violence on television, or in computer games, begets violence in real life. Our intuitions on such matters could be right, could be wrong, and different people have opposite intuitions. The only way to decide is by research.

Same thing for fairy tales. Libby Purves’s intuition is that they are a good thing. My anecdotal experience of my own childhood points me towards the opposite intuition. Whether I actually believed in spells and magic wands and Genies of the Lamp, I can’t remember. But I do remember spending a lot of time at my infant school trying to call down supernatural forces to protect me from bullies. I had a distinct mental image of a large black cloud with a human face, which would swoop down out of the sky and deal with the bully. I can’t be sure that a diet of Grimm and Hans Anderson predisposes children to such futile imaginings, but at very least it seems plausible enough to be worth researching. Similarly, my intuition suggests that a diet of wizards and magic, where anything can change, at the shake of a wand, into anything else, might predispose a child to lazy habits of thought, avoiding the urge to question how and why things really happen. This is emphatically not true, by the way, of good science fiction, which respects scientific principles and never resorts to lazy magic tricks.

I might add – although I didn’t in the interview – that I find it plausible that early exposure to supernatural magic might predispose a child to religious indoctrination. What, after all, is the difference between Jesus walking on water, or turning water into wine, and a witch turning a prince into a frog? But, I hasten to add, Libby Purves might be right. Such magic spell stories might be a valuable, even essential, part of a child’s imaginative development. Both points of view are defensible in the absence of evidence, and research is the only way to decide between them.

In response to my modest suggestion for research, to answer a question to which I don’t know the answer, the Telegraph prints a couple of letters under the heading “Fundamentalist Dawkins”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/10/27/nosplit/dt2701.xml#head2
One of these letters, by a David A Robertson of Dundee, begins,
Richard Dawkins is sounding more like a religious fundamentalist every day, and wants to investigate whether reading Harry Potter books will have a ‘pernicious effect’ upon children.
It is the mark of a fundamentalist to know the answer to a question in the absence of any research on it. How very revealing, that a call for open-minded research to answer an open – and quite interesting and important – question should be damned as ‘fundamentalist’.

Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

8. Comment #272079 by Thor'Ungal on October 27, 2008 at 1:20 am

 avatarComment #272067 by Lumifish

I agree. I think the main thrust of the concern Dawkins might have is that magical thinking in escapism might leak into general society. Skepticism is probably key here but society in general doesn't seem to respond positively to this idea.

I personally find fantasy (and to some extent science fiction) to be of enormous value. Part of the reason for this is that it provides a toy universe with different rules to stew over. It allows ones lateral thinking to play with problems outside normal intuition. I have not heard personally of anyone that has taken these toy universes as real. If anything the fictional existence of such alien universes reminds us of how little of it is true.

The problem seems to stem more over with how we form real beliefs. Too often we take it on face value. We trust our gut feelings or circum to wishful thinking. If we like it and it sounds kind of plausible we accept it (and fail to critically investigate).

To make things worse none of us is immune to this kind of fuzzy thinking. Just think how many times you hear otherwise rational people railing against GM foods (regardless of the research). Or even us (myself included) reading an article critical of Dawkins or the new atheist movement and respond viscerally rather than absorbing criticisms and sorting the wheat from the chaff to improve our strategies.

I don't like the tone of this article but I must admit it make some valid points (many of which I'm sure Dawkins must already realise).

Edit: Bleeding typical, I finish typing and my post appears right after Richard's. I appear to have oversimplified the issue enormously; the above response seems fairly apt.

Other Comments by Thor'Ungal

9. Comment #272080 by Lorne Oliver on October 27, 2008 at 1:22 am

I feel that imagination is a necessary thing for children and the fairy tales that we learned helped provide a background against which we can separate science from fantasy. We tend to think in comparison-contrast and having elements of magic and fairy tale as a child allow adolescents and adults a safe repository for other myths like Jesus, Odin, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

And Richard, please do not strap on a vest of books and explode in a furry of science in the lobby of Hogwarts. Fundamentalist or not, we still need you.

Other Comments by Lorne Oliver

10. Comment #272081 by Apathy personified on October 27, 2008 at 1:27 am

 avatarI think that most of the myths and stories are good for kids as it probably helps them develop their imaginations (as RD said).
The clear differences between say 'Harry Potter', 'His Dark Materials' and the religious books are that
A) Harry Potter and His Dark Materials are better written, and
B) Stories and myths are told to the children as such, stories. Whereas religious books are told as 'the truth' to be accepted no matter what.

You can enjoy reading the myths without believing a word of it and I guess that most kids understand that. It doesn't work that way with the insidious scriptures like the bible.

Richard,
I'd be careful quoting 'DAR', as he has an uncanny ability to float in, like a bad smell, when his name is mentioned.

Other Comments by Apathy personified

11. Comment #272082 by Laurie Fraser on October 27, 2008 at 1:28 am

 avatarGood post, Richard - it is quite OK (in my opinion) to tell fantasy and fairy stories to children as long as they are grounded in reality in the rest of their lives. Gradually, they begin to discriminate between fact and fantasy, and work out for themselves where the line is drawn. When my son was three, he said to me "Dad, is Santa real or not?" I had to answer truthfully. He said "Good. I thought so." The point is, he was ready for the truth. Just about every child can handle the truth, as long as they are secure in all of the other important areas in life. Why we would foist some evil religious idiocy upon them, to boot, is beyond my ken.

All of that is anecdotal, of course; you are right to suggest that research is needed to ascertain what the reality is.

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12. Comment #272083 by Laurie Fraser on October 27, 2008 at 1:30 am

 avatarAp - I was just thinking about you and left a message on your blog - spooky, huh?

Other Comments by Laurie Fraser

13. Comment #272085 by MartinSGill on October 27, 2008 at 1:32 am

 avatarThe difference between childhood myths and fairytales is that we stop pretending (in many cases never even start) that they are in any way based on reality or fact.

Even Santa, once figured out, is acknowledge as a myth.

The danger comes when we refuse to accept myth and fairytales as such; which is where religion comes in.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

14. Comment #272086 by Richard Dawkins on October 27, 2008 at 1:32 am

 avatar
I feel that imagination is a necessary thing for children and the fairy tales that we learned helped provide a background against which we can separate science from fantasy.
Yes, that's what you feel. Maybe I feel the same, maybe I feel differently, I'm not sure. But my point is, WHO CARES what I feel, or what you feel? This is an answerable question, and my feelings and your feelings should be superseded by research on real children.

Richard

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15. Comment #272087 by Jesse. on October 27, 2008 at 1:35 am

If I might add a hypothesis to such research: it is possible that reading fantasy and fairy tales inoculates one against future religious indoctrination. After reading enough fairy tales you might more easily recognize the bible/torah/koran/... for what it is: fantasy, and badly written at that.

Other Comments by Jesse.

16. Comment #272088 by SteveN on October 27, 2008 at 1:38 am

 avatar
One of these letters, by a David A Robertson of Dundee, begins...


Richard, was your choice of wording a deliberate, albeit oblique, put-down or did you genuinely not recognise the name of this 'flea' author and frequent participant here? Just interested.

SteveN

Other Comments by SteveN

17. Comment #272089 by Laurie Fraser on October 27, 2008 at 1:40 am

 avatarComment #272086 by Richard Dawkins

Just what we'd expect from a bloody scientist, Richard! :)

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18. Comment #272090 by Chris_The_Positivist on October 27, 2008 at 1:41 am

I am sick of this term 'fundamentalist' being banded about. Atheist fundamentalist.. lots of people I'm sure either don't understand what a fundamentalist is (or an atheist for that matter) and simply squark what they have heard from the stupifyingly pathetic literature, or their own religious community. That man from Dundee, is another example, eager to misunderstand and so make the outrageous comparison of calling a child 'English' to calling a child Christian or Muslim.

I'm quite sure one has more basis in reality than the other.

Other Comments by Chris_The_Positivist

19. Comment #272092 by Diacanu on October 27, 2008 at 1:43 am

 avatarJesse-

That was my experience as a kid.
Bible stories couldn't contend with Star Wars, and Hulk.
:P

Other Comments by Diacanu

20. Comment #272094 by Lumifish on October 27, 2008 at 1:45 am

 avatar
it is possible that reading fantasy and fairy tales inoculates one against future religious indoctrination.

A 'fantasy as immunization' analogy to go with the 'religion as virus' one? I like that =)

This is an answerable question, and my feelings and your feelings should be superseded by research on real children.

Dawkins is right, as usual. I am curious as to how such research would be done, though; given how pervasive fiction of all kinds is in our society, wouldn't it be kind of difficult to put up adequate controls to test any hypothesis about the effects of fantasy, harmful or otherwise? 'Correlation != causation' would seem likely to apply to many of the results, too.

Other Comments by Lumifish

22. Comment #272096 by Laurie Fraser on October 27, 2008 at 1:48 am

 avatarHi Diacanu - Still, RD's argument is entirely sound (of course) - the only way to test this is to test it, with controls, in a longitudinal study that looks at children's evolving belief systems when exposed to fairy stories. A hard business, though - what sort of "controls" could (or should) be placed upon such a procedure? Maybe Richard might like to elaborate on how such an experiment would be conducted. I, for one, am intrigued by this. It could be ground-breaking research, if conducted well.

Other Comments by Laurie Fraser

23. Comment #272098 by Jesse. on October 27, 2008 at 1:55 am

Comment #272094 by Lumifish

It might be difficult but it's not impossible. You don't have to control for every possible exposure to fantasy that the controlgroup gets.

You just read fantasy stories at bedtime to one group for say, a year, and other types of stories to the controlgroup. Presumably the uncontrolled 'daytime' fantasy exposure in the two groups would be the same and so cancel eachother out. The hard part would be getting the parents to cooperate in such a study.

Other Comments by Jesse.

24. Comment #272099 by Sigmund on October 27, 2008 at 1:56 am

 avatarIn my opinion the value of fantasy figures, such as Santa, is not in the fact that children will come to believe in 'magic', but rather in the fact that they will gain something through the later realization that their initial belief was untrue.
It is important for children to grow up knowing that they will be told some things that are untrue, even by people speaking with the sincerest of voices. This linking of supernatural/magic with pure imagination is an important defence against religious notions that are based on the same level of evidence as the tale of the three little pigs (the holy trinity of fairytale land).

Other Comments by Sigmund

25. Comment #272100 by sunbeamforjesus on October 27, 2008 at 1:58 am

How on earth can this woman earn a living as a journalist?Is she really expecting Richard to suggest the Bash Street Kids produce truancy or antisocial behaviour,or Dennis the Menace encourages bullying because he gives Cuthbert a hard time?
Get real woman, fiction has a hugely valuable place in developing imagination and constructive writing.The fact is some fiction can be scary to kids but one should just explain that it is only for the thrill of reading.When you inculcate fear into a child because you claim the fiction is true that is an entirely different matter and one that Richard will no doubt address.
Go back to your rosary you stupid cow!

Other Comments by sunbeamforjesus

26. Comment #272101 by Chris Davis on October 27, 2008 at 1:58 am

 avatarKids can do fantasy without help. When I was approximately 0, I learned - probably from my scientist mum - that diamonds were formed by pressure on coal. So I put a lump outside and placed a brick on it.

I knew it wouldn't be enough to make a diamond, but I hoped for some less valuable intermediate - I had in mind a chocolate bar.

Two days later, no change. I learned something about reality - without a feeling of betrayal, because nobody had lied to me.

CD

Other Comments by Chris Davis

27. Comment #272103 by Lumifish on October 27, 2008 at 2:02 am

 avatarComment #272098 by Jesse.

Yeah-- you'd need a fairly large sample size to overcome the many complicating variables, and controlling/observing that many families to an acceptable level of accuracy would be a real logistical pain..

I suddenly have a whole lot more respect for experimental psychology.

Other Comments by Lumifish

28. Comment #272106 by Jesse. on October 27, 2008 at 2:12 am

Comment #272103 by Lumifish

-chest swells-

Yeah, we've got a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

Comment #272092 by Diacanu
That was my experience as a kid.
Bible stories couldn't contend with Star Wars, and Hulk.
:P


I was a huge comic book fan myself when I was a kid. Also Terry Pratchett's bromeliad trilogy an later Tolkien where great. Oh, how I'd like to have read Harry Potter as a kid. Kid's have it all these days.

Other Comments by Jesse.

29. Comment #272107 by Ian (South Africa) on October 27, 2008 at 2:12 am

 avatarAs a child I remember reading or having read to me books and stories like the Water Babies, The Magic Faraway Tree, the Noddy and Big Ears books et al. I know I never confused them with reality but they did engender some great daydreams and playing at being the characters.

On an anecdotal level they certainly helped to expand my imagination and gave me a desire to explore between the covers of other books both fantasy and science fiction.

Being brought up as catholic it also seemed to me as a child that these stories put the bible stories into context and I thought of them in the same way, in that I thought that the adults were pretending the bible stories were real in much the same way that they pretended that Santa was real.

It was only when I went to high school (Christian Brothers College) that I realized that the adults had confused fantasy with reality and that I was in the evil mirror image of Hogwarts where all the teachers were teaching an evil mythology based on pain and retribution.

Other Comments by Ian (South Africa)

30. Comment #272108 by Christopher Davis on October 27, 2008 at 2:18 am

 avatarOne thing that is important not to overlook is that children who enjoy reading tend to become adults who enjoy reading.

Up until the age of 25, most of the books I read were fiction. Now I mainly read books on science, history, and politics, and I dare say I am far more educated today than I would have been if I never learned to enjoy reading as a child.

My point is that any scientific study designed to assess the effects of reading fairytales would have to also take into account, and control for, the effects of reading in general.

Also, I do still throw in some fiction...I just finished John Irving's "A Prayer for Owen Meany" a couple of weeks ago and, even though it has serious religious overtones, I recommend it highly. I find that good fiction improves my mood and general view on life.

Other Comments by Christopher Davis

31. Comment #272109 by scottishgeologist on October 27, 2008 at 2:19 am

 avatarSome fairy tales are quite barabaric. I remember reading Rumpelstiltskin as a child and being quite fascinated (maybe I should have been horrified) at him flying itno a rage and ripping himself in two. Of course modern versions are completely sanitised - last time I read it old Rumpy stamped a hole in the floor and simply disappeared into it.

And of course there is that other book of fairy tales that has that hideous story about the concubine being raped to death and then cut in 12 pieces, the women and children of Daniels accusers beig ripped to bits by lions and of course the horrible fate of the kids who called Elijah a slaphead....

Actually, in a way fairy tales could be useful. Stories about Santa, the Tooth Fairy and so on. Kids eventually grow up to realise that these are just tales, that they were lied to about Santa. Maybe that other black sombre looking book - you know the one that threatens you with eternal fire if you tell lies - maybe thats just a lot of fairy tales as well.

:-)
SG

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32. Comment #272110 by Laurie Fraser on October 27, 2008 at 2:22 am

 avatarIan, Christopher and SG - you all speak truth. Wise heads on such young bodies - *sigh*

Other Comments by Laurie Fraser

33. Comment #272111 by gcdavis on October 27, 2008 at 2:22 am

 avatarThis is one of the few times that I disagree with Richard. Imagination is one of the defining human characteristics; if imagination had been constrained by reason humankind would not have developed very far. An essential component of imagination is fantasy, you have only to listen to young children at play to realise that. Most children start off by blurring the boundary between fantasy and reality but gradually the distinction between the two becomes clear.

Imagination is an ingredient in all endeavours, whether an author writing a novel, a scientist making those links that have not been thought of before or even a footballer visualising the situation before taking a penalty. Imagination is essential to the enjoyment of fiction and drama. As adults we are able to suspend disbelief for the period of watching a movie and then return to the rational world.

So let your kids indulge their fantasies, even join in with them, and don’t be afraid that they will end up irrational zombies, mine haven’t

Other Comments by gcdavis

34. Comment #272113 by Corylus on October 27, 2008 at 2:29 am

 avatarFor a long time I was fine with fairy tales, but not with Santa.

Children do understand what ‘Let’s pretend’ is about. It is true that working out stories can not only exercise the mind, but also help children work through conflicts in a safe way (e.g. play therapy). Fine. I was surrounded by story books as soon as I could sit up and I wouldn't have missed reading them for the world.

Santa though is an outright lie. Children really are taught that he is real – this raised my hackles because I hate lies. Then I considered the possibility that Santa has a very special purpose all of his own.

He teaches is us is that adults (even the kindest and most loving ones) sometimes lie. These lies can be with the very best of intentions and often the result of simply being human, but lies are not just restricted to those that would harm. A grim lesson, but you have to take it on board at some point.

N.B. This theory is simply from my gut and thus based on my faulty institution only (I am aware I have a cynical bias :-), but I do think it is worth considering.

That said though, should I deign to grace the gene pool with future offspring, I don’t think I will do Santa, for the simple reason that I will want the credit for spending all of my hard earning pennies on presents. Story books will abound though.

Other Comments by Corylus

35. Comment #272120 by Ian (South Africa) on October 27, 2008 at 2:37 am

 avatarChristopher, you make a very valid point about the child reader becoming the adult reader. It was certainly the case with me. and my reading very much tracks with yours, although I really can't handle Irving.

I heard a couple of years ago about books on sceptical thinking written for the young reader. Does anybody know of these books as I would like to acquire them for my kids.

I'm extremely pleased that Richard is writing a book for kids and it will certainly be in my library. I would love to see a list of books for kids on sceptical thinking and science etc. I'd send them to my brother in law for his newborn in return for the kids bible and bible stories he sent for my first one 2 years ago.

Other Comments by Ian (South Africa)

36. Comment #272123 by Quetzalcoatl on October 27, 2008 at 2:38 am

 avatarMy parents did the whole Santa thing, but rather half-heartedly in retrospect. I suspect it was more a convenient device to get my sister and I into bed on Christmas Eve, rather than have us bouncing around with excitement for half the night.

That being said: I used to think that I wouldn't tell my children about Santa, but I'm not really sure now.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

37. Comment #272125 by AllanW on October 27, 2008 at 2:43 am

 avatarThis issue of fantasy/reality and how human capacities to deal with the two are honed or blurred is an interesting area for further research (precisely Richard's point). Anecdotal evidence is worthless here and I agree with earlier posters that the research will be very difficult to set up, complicated to isolate and measure in any satisfying way.

But it's typical of the religious mindset (Purves and the Wee Flea demonstrate it perfectly) that their own personal views give them certainty about this obviously unanswered question.

Comment #272111 by gcdavis on October 27, 2008 at 2:22 am
'Most children start off by blurring the boundary between fantasy and reality but gradually the distinction between the two becomes clear.'
'As adults we are able to suspend disbelief for the period of watching a movie and then return to the rational world.'

I think it's precisely because those two statements are demonstrably false for some people that the research is needed.

Other Comments by AllanW

38. Comment #272126 by Christopher Davis on October 27, 2008 at 2:44 am

 avatarIan,

Skeptic Magazine has a section titled "Jr. Skeptic" in every issue.

"Owen Meany" is the first book I've read by Irving, so I can't speak for any of his other books. Plus, being here in Afghanistan for the last 8 months has led to my reading a lot worse...mainly due to availability. I also read "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren. That that is something that I don't reccommend anyone read.

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39. Comment #272128 by mixmastergaz on October 27, 2008 at 2:46 am

 avatarOf course, Richard is quite right to question how useful personal, subjective speculation is in assessing the influenece of magical stories on young minds. But this doesn't stop us speculating. To add my own tuppence worth, I'd say they enriched my childhood and sparked a layman's interest in science and history. I don't believe, for me personally, that I became more credulous as a result of reading such things. On the contrary, I think they heightened my awareness of the extent of belief in 'nonsense' amongst otherwise respectable adults. I can still remember my shock at meeting proper grown-ups who spoke seriously about ghosts, ESP, UFOs etc. I can vividly recall being appalled at an English teacher in my secondary school who wasted my and my classmates' time 'teaching' us about the 'predictions' of Nostradamus! I'd be surprised if any research into this matter were to conclude that fantasy stories were either wholly positive or negative. It seems very likely to me that different people will respond differently to different stories. But, of course, this is mere conjecture and I'd be very interested to see the results of any research.

I can't resist commenting on the unnecessary bias present in the Telegraph’s piece. What a nasty man that Richard Dawkins must be! Why he even objects to those wonderful Harry Potter books that have encouraged so many young people, otherwise alienated from reading, to read. Apparently he intends "to warn them against believing in anti-scientific tales". This is totally unfounded and seems to be a deliberate distortion. Decca Aitkenhead appears to be up to the same thing in her Guardian piece, repeating the crap about Peter Kay, but negelecting to mention that that particular storm in a teacup was deliberately whipped-up by the Guardian. I know these may seem like pedantic quibbles, but it seems to me it would be just as easy to get these things right. I think it's regrettable that even quality newspapers can't resist adding their own spin to even the most seemingly inconsequential news reporting.

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40. Comment #272129 by JAMCAM87 on October 27, 2008 at 2:51 am

 avatarI have been given my fair share of contempt from friends for expressing my contempt for religion. The whole "militant" atheist thing is really catching on.

Atheism is beginning to suffer from bad publicity just like the feminists did and still do.

So where is all this bad publicity coming from? Mainly the newspapers I think. Journalists are so incredibly reactionary and even the more liberal papers constantly attack Richard and atheism. Writers like Madelien Bunting et al. in the guardian are particularly bad.

I think underlying it is also a contempt for Darwinism and for science. In their minds Darwinsm = social darwinism. The fallacy that Darwinism does not give an account of the origin of morality needs to be put right once and for all.

I suspect they feel intimidated by Richard as well. He makes them come across as incredibly stupid.

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41. Comment #272137 by Matt H. on October 27, 2008 at 3:02 am

 avatarDavid Robertson is obsessed with Richard isn't he? I'll bet £10 he writes another flea book by the end of 2009. It'll probably be titled, "Fundamentalist Dawkins: How open-mindedness is sweeping the country, and how we can stop it".

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42. Comment #272140 by scottishgeologist on October 27, 2008 at 3:07 am

 avatarMatt7895

Actually, I think all this obsession will cause him to flip.....

He'll either end up in th nut-house, have an epiphany moment and end up on "our side.......:-OOOO)

Or else go mad , like Rambo, and self-publish a book called "Dawkins F*cking Delusion - How an Atheist Fundamentalist changed the way I obsess...)

:-)
SG

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43. Comment #272143 by Ian (South Africa) on October 27, 2008 at 3:08 am

 avatarThanks Christopher I shall check that out.

I haven't read Owen Meaney but I did try a couple of his others and I wasn't captivated to say the least.

I know that when you are on deployment books are like hens teeth and you guard them with your life, I hope that you can find a fix of the good stuff now and then.

I'm just about to re-read The Ottoman Centuries by Lord Kinross a great read the first time around it seems suitably apropos in todays world.

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44. Comment #272145 by Dr Doctor on October 27, 2008 at 3:09 am

 avatarThere is something deeply repressed about his obsession.

There is also something desperate about his evangelising, almost like he was trying to convince himself...

But it is a shock to realise that the religious cannot differentiate between research and assertion.

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45. Comment #272147 by mordacious1 on October 27, 2008 at 3:17 am

 avatarJust woke up in the middle of the night so I thought I'd check in.

Libby Purves...A hack who makes a living by writing something controversial about important people, just to get a rise of of her readers. It is bottom-of-the-barrel journalism and should be ignored.

Richard's suggestion on research into the effects of fairy tales...great idea, let's not assume they are harmless, because:

Fairy tales...Can be fun stories for children, but many were originally written to scare them into behaving a certain way (children who wander into the woods get eaten by wolves). Many were written to teach valuable lessons (kindness, etc.) and may be OK. Richard's point about making religion more acceptable to children (edit) is also valid, although I found that if you don't pull the religious trigger, then fairy tales can re-enforce disbelief.

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46. Comment #272148 by NakedCelt on October 27, 2008 at 3:17 am

My sister and her husband are teaching their children that everyone plays a game at Christmas where you pretend Santa Claus is real. That seems to me much the best way of doing it; lets the kids in on the fun without spoiling the joke. Her eldest (five years old as of this writing) certainly seems to find it intensely amusing.

I don't believe serious ethnographic research has ever been done specifically on child beliefs. Probably because the ethnographic method entails first immersing yourself in the subjects' social world, which an adult researcher obviously could not do in a group of children.

Research absent, I suspect (but wouldn't dream of claiming as fact) that those who've grown up with fairy tales, who've been encouraged to imagine worlds different from the real one, are better equipped to tackle questions like "Why is the real world the way it is, and not like the stories?"

I should also point out that the association of fairy tales with children is an unusual feature of our society, not a universal.

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47. Comment #272150 by AllanW on October 27, 2008 at 3:21 am

 avatarComment #272145 by Dr Doctor on October 27, 2008 at 3:09 am
'But it is a shock to realise that the religious cannot differentiate between research and assertion.'

That, for me, is at the root of the difference between reason/rationality and supernaturalist outlooks. It's the willingness to instinctively accept personal assertion or personal anecdote before ever considering an objective way to uncover facts. It gets worse when, having accepted some sort of personal assertion as binding, anyone else who comes along and mildly suggests there might be a way of working towards some objectivity is denounced as a fundamentalist ...

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48. Comment #272151 by Mark Barratt on October 27, 2008 at 3:24 am

 avatarComment #272087 by Jesse. on October 27, 2008 at 1:35 am

If I might add a hypothesis to such research: it is possible that reading fantasy and fairy tales inoculates one against future religious indoctrination. After reading enough fairy tales you might more easily recognize the bible/torah/koran/... for what it is: fantasy, and badly written at that.


This describes my experience exactly.

I've always thought that the hatred certain fundies appear to have for fantasy stories other than THEIR one stems from the realisation that the more fantasy a kid is exposed to the more easily they'll be able to spot that religious fairy tales are just another fantasy. It's a well-founded fear.

I imagine it must be difficult to convince a kid that, of the two important fantasy figures that Christmas is based around, Santa is fictional but Jesus Christ is real. I certainly see no difference between them, and regarding Santa as fictional in no way hurts any lessons that can be drawn from stories involving him.

Indeed, considering figures like Santa and Jesus to be real would actually get in the way of the morals of stories involving these characters by causing readers to focus on inconvenient details such as contradictions to the detriment of the point of the story. Such problems can be ignored in stories that are admitted fictions and the moral can be received without difficulty. As long as the moral is fairly clear, which is a discussion for another time.

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49. Comment #272153 by Quetzalcoatl on October 27, 2008 at 3:25 am

 avatar
It's the willingness to instinctively accept personal assertion or personal anecdote before ever considering an objective way to uncover facts.


Few seem to realise that there is nothing wrong with accepting personal assertion, as long as you realise that said assertion is only relevant to said person, and thus cannot be expected to translate into an objective assessment of things in general. Something else that needs to be emphasised as much as possible, I think.

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50. Comment #272154 by NakedCelt on October 27, 2008 at 3:30 am

Richard,
...my intuition suggests that a diet of wizards and magic, where anything can change, at the shake of a wand, into anything else, might predispose a child to lazy habits of thought, avoiding the urge to question how and why things really happen.
I don't think I've ever read a fantasy story where "anything can change, at the shake of a wand, into anything else" -- except for a deliberately bad one written by Isaac Asimov to illustrate that very point. A story where the hero could fix anything without effort would fall apart as a story. Magic may be real in fantasy stories, but it's seldom easy and never without consequences.

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