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Friday, December 22, 2006 | Science : Evolution and Biology | print version Print | Comments

Document The Only One in Step

by Richard Dawkins

I can't find the original volume so I may have got the exact words wrong, but I recall one of those marvellous old Punch cartoons in which every last detail is painstakingly explained. A devoted mother is looking proudly on at a military parade as her son's platoon marches past: "There's my boy, he's the only one in step!" On The Guardian letters page of December 19th 2006, I initiated an exchange about Professor Andrew McIntosh of Leeds university, who has publicly stated that he believes the world is only 6,000 years old, and publicly stated that the theory of evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. Both these beliefs place McIntosh out of step with his scientific colleagues, not just his platoon but the entire regiment – to paraphrase Evelyn Waugh, the whole ruddy division. Amazingly, McIntosh is Professor of Thermodynamics at Leeds, and, equally amazingly, a letter supporting him has now appeared from Professor Stuart Burgess, Head of the Department of Mechanical Engineering at Bristol University . Other letters to the Editor indicate that a distressing number of otherwise knowledgeable and intelligent people have little conception of the enormity of what is being said.

Science doesn't work by vote and it doesn't work by authority. It is possible that Burgess and McIntosh really are the only ones in step, and the whole scientific establishment is flat wrong. Indeed, I shall bias my discussion in their favour by continuing to use that word 'establishment' with all its pejorative overtones of fuddyduddy, stick-in-the-muddy authoritarianism. I like mavericks. I like free spirits who buck the trend and strike out on their own. They are not usually right, but on the rare occasions when they are, they are very right indeed: importantly so, and all power to them. Maybe Burgess and McIntosh are right and all the rest of us – biologists, geologists, archeologists, historians, chemists, physicists, cosmologists and, yes, thermodynamicists and respectable theologians, the vast majority of Nobel Prizewinners, Fellows of the Royal Society and of the National Academies of the world – are wrong. Not just slightly wrong but catastrophically, appallingly, devastatingly wrong. It is possible, and I am going to follow that possibility through to its logical conclusion. I shall not here defend the views held by the scientific establishment. I am among those who have done that elsewhere, in many books. My purpose in this article is only to convey the full magnitude of the error into which, if Burgess and McIntosh are right, the scientific establishment has fallen.

First, the age of the Earth. McIntosh thinks, on bliblical authority alone, that it is less than 10,000 years. We establishment fuddyduddies think, using mutually corroborating evidence from many sources including several different radioactive isotopes in the rocks, that it is about 4.6 billion years. I shall not say here why I think we are right and McIntosh wrong. Instead, I shall simply calculate the magnitude of the difference between the two estimates. We of the 'establishment' think the Earth is 460,000 times older than McIntosh's estimate. It is as though McIntosh estimated the height of a man as 6 feet and then accused the rest of us of believing that the same man was 460,000 times as tall, or 521 miles. Or, looking the other way, it is as though McIntosh looked at the establishment geographers' measurement of the distance from New York to San Francisco and claimed that the true distance from sea to shining sea was 460,000 times smaller, namely about ten yards. Maybe McIntosh is right and all the rest of us wrong. All I have done here is calculate how spectacularly wrong we would be, if McIntosh is right.

Turning now to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, this is a topic on which Andrew McIntosh, as Professor of Thermodynamics at Leeds, might be thought to speak with special authority. He is backed up by Stuart Burgess, Head of Bristol's Department of Mechanical Engineering, which is another subject in which thermodynamics is paramount and central. Both these men have stated their authoritative opinion that the theory of evolution violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Nothing violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The great astrophyisicist Sir Arthur Eddington put it with memorable irony. "If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations – then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation – well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation." It is not for nothing that C P Snow used familiarity with the Second Law as his litmus test of scientific literacy.

The Second Law states that, in a closed system without external energy fed in from outside, entropy always increases. Entropy is often said to mean disorder, but in some ways the word 'mixed-upness' (Willard Gibbs's coining) fits better. A familiar metaphor is that of a library. If the readers in a library always leave books lying around on the tables, or shove them back on the shelves at random, the library will become increasingly disordered. To remain in a state of order, it needs an energetic librarian, constantly working to put books back on their proper shelves, and constantly checking the shelves for misplaced volumes. It is not that libraries have a magnetic attraction or an urgent drive towards a particular goal state called disorder. It is simply that the number of states of a library that we would call disordered is much greater than the tiny minority of states that we would recognize as ordered. There are many more ways of being disordered than of being ordered. No work needs to be done to drive a library toward one of the many states that we call disordered. It will just happen, willy nilly, unless energetic work is done to prevent the otherwise inevitable slide downhill into disorder.

The Second Law recognizes a similar downhill slide towards disorder in any closed system such as the universe, which lacks a source of externally supplied energy. In a local region with externally supplied energy, on the other hand, we may see what look like reversals, but the stress must be on 'local' and 'externally supplied'. Life on Earth may evolve towards greater complexity and increased order, but this is only possible because of a massive transfusion of energy from the sun. To return to the library analogy, natural selection, the nonrandom survival of successful genes in gene pools, could be called the librarian of life. And the energy to power it comes ultimately from the sun. The overall trend of the thermodynamic river is still downhill. But a small tithe of the sun's energy is trapped by plants and used to power a trickle in the reverse direction. This reverse trickle is to be found not only in evolution but in the physiology of every individual organism, and in many chemical reactions. It is like a ram pump, which uses the energy of a flowing river to pump a small quantity of the water uphill.

Once again, it is not my purpose here to argue for the validity of the Second Law. It is undisputed. Nor is it my purpose to defend evolution against the charge of violating it. My purpose is again to convey the sheer magnitude of the error that Burgess and McIntosh are attributing to their hugely more numerous 'establishment' colleagues, who accept evolution and supply cogent arguments against the suggestion that it violates the Second Law. As with the age of the Earth, this is not some minor, recondite dispute among scientists. It is a monumental disagreement. One side or the other has got to be wrong, and not just slightly wrong but catastrophically, ignominiously, disastrously wrong. Evolutionists are accused of believing in a theory that violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If Burgess and McIntosh are right, almost all the scientists in the world should, in Eddington's words, 'collapse in deepest humiliation.' If they are right, evolution has to be ruled out, not because of some evidential problems or deficiencies as is common in science, but for a much more radical reason. Evolution, on their view, is completely and utterly ruled out for the same kind of reason as a patent inspector will reject a design for a perpetual motion machine without even looking at it. We earlier saw that McIntosh is, in effect, accusing the scientific establishment of believing that a man is 521 miles tall. Now we see that he also accuses us of believing something as absurd as that a river will run uphill. Maybe he is right on both counts, but the sheer magnitude of the error attributed to the rest of us should at least give him pause. When I say it is not a minor mistake we scientists are accused of, I am giving a whole new depth of meaning to the word understatement.


Richard Dawkins FRS is the Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. His books include The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker, Climbing Mount Improbable, The Ancestor's Tale and, most recently, The God Delusion.

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201. Comment #22441 by gimlibengloin on February 17, 2007 at 12:21 pm

epeeist (197)

"If this is the case then the Bible needs to be accepted as the ultimate source of truth and the basis of our morality. However, this means accepting it all, not just the bits you like. Cherrypicking is not allowed."

Exactly! I commend you for telling it like it is

"This means accepting that when the Bible was written the Earth was flat and had four corners. It means accepting that at this period the Sun went around the Earth."

Uh, unfortunately this is not correct. What your doing is taking texts out of their literary context and then interpreting them as if they were statements of fact. I should emphasise that creationists do not advocate a literal reading of the Bible as if when Jesus says, "I am the door" he means that he is literally a door with hinges and a lock. One has to read the context. Even today we moderns say, "I'm going to watch the sun RISE/SET". Why do you judge the scripture differently. Isn't it strange that in Gen 1 where we do have a description of a genuine historical event it doesn't refer to the "pillars of the heavens" or the "four corners of the earth"?

Not only this but your guilty of ignoring the many statements in line with science: the earth is suspended on nothing (Job 26:7), the number of stars is equivalent to the grains of sand on the seashore (Gen 13:16 and 15:5 and 22:17), the continents were originally one land mass (Gen 1:9), there are springs on the ocean depths (Job 38:16), dinosaurs walked the earth (Job 40:15-41:34).

"It also means accepting that the Earth is only a few thousand years old. The consequence of this is that it is not just evolution that is wrong, but cosmology, geology, most of physics and chemistry. Essentially it means that the scientific method is invalid."

Again this is incorrect and you havn't understood the difference between empirical science and evolutionary theory. I've noticed that a lot of sceptics on this site are not familiar with the actual biblical, creationist position. This would be like me not being familar with Dawkins books. As a consequence I've dug out two short introductory articles for you and also one list of related articles:

www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/2480

www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/3258/106/

www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/3040/

Regards, GBG

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

202. Comment #22442 by gimlibengloin on February 17, 2007 at 12:35 pm

May I also, rather cheekily, take this opportunity to plug a new book called Deluded by Dawkins? by Andrew Wilson. Its only 112 pages and costs £4.99 and knocks the stuffing out of the Professor's arguments in his The God Delusion. You can buy it from your local Xn bookshop. Happy reading.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

203. Comment #22450 by fonex_86 on February 18, 2007 at 6:16 pm

GBG, I appreciate the links you gave, and have read at least some of them.

I see some problems, though, and I would like to know your opinion:

1. The article, 'It's Not Science', claims that many scientists are 'philosophically ignorant' -- this is rather curious, since, after reading the writer's bio, it appears that he himself has had little philosophical training! Is he one of those 'many ignorant scientists'?

2. As in many other pro-creation (no pun intended) literature, many of those articles are examples of what I call the 'cookie-jar-temptation'. Some people just can't keep their hands out of other people's cookie jars: an (in)famous example of this would be Fred Hoyle -- He was a great scientist, but his field of expertise was astronomy/cosmology, and not evolutionary biology/antropology/geology (or some other field more directly relevant to 'evolution') which he (incorrectly) criticized so vehemently.

3. One of the biggest problems I've always had with creationists is that they never propose a scientfically sound alternative ('God did it' is NO alternative) -- for example, to prove that dinos were 7000 years old, maybe they could theorize that radioactive particles decay differently than currently believed, AND have conclusive evidence to support that theory. So far I have failed to find any such alternative. For an example of valid alternative theories, you should look into the history of the Big Bang vs. Steady-State cosmologies.

I guess that's all for now; hope to get a reply.

Cheers,

fonex_86

Other Comments by fonex_86

204. Comment #22473 by Hoddlwood on February 19, 2007 at 6:26 am

You are absolutely right, Gim. We must not let the fact that no one on has ever replicated Austin's work on Mt St Helens distract us from its obvious certainty. Just because Austin's paper is a single piece of work contradicted by all other scientific research should not allow us to miss the truth. After all, Austin agrees with God's Word, so it must be true.

I see also that we have another piece of evidence to support us: the wood buried in the basalt lava flow. Again, the lack of any replicated measurements on the same area by other scientists should not distract from its obvious congruence with God's Word.

These two anomalies are clear evidence that something is wrong with current theory, and to think they try and pass this off as experimental error, due for example to contamination, that is an inevitable consequence of any complex measurements.

Also I am happy you have brought Russell Humphreys to my attention as many people have said he is an insane, rambling fool for thinking that decay rates were faster during creation week, but have remained constant ever since. Just because the equations that describe the decay have a predictive accuracy of many millions of decimal places should not distract us from the fact the God may have altered them in the beginning to do His Great Work. After all, God can do anything, can't he?*

*(by the way, I won't use the Hourglass analogy when I attempt to convert heathens as they might just laugh at me.)

Additionally we must not allow the possibility that man has occasionally made up fictional creatures blind us to the truth of Angkor. There is just no way a man could have invented such a creature (or even just carved an elephant badly enough for some people to think it looks like a dinosaur). These possibilities contradict the Word of God, so they must be false.

I have no need to converse with you further, as I am now certain of the veracity of the young earth paradigm. To think I once believed that an empirical method generating an immense web of interconnected, mutually dependent, peer-reviewed evidence, providing us with such wonders as medical science or the computer was more reliable than the ancient Word of God?!?!?!

I must have been crazy.

Thanks for your guidance Gim, I shall now go and convert heretics and apostates to the Word of God, preaching hatred for gays (and any other sexual perverts we're not keen on) and love for Jesus!!!

Other Comments by Hoddlwood

205. Comment #22477 by gimlibengloin on February 19, 2007 at 9:41 am

Hoddlwood (204)

"Also I am happy you have brought Russell Humphreys to my attention as many people have said he is an insane, rambling fool for thinking that decay rates were faster during creation week, but have remained constant ever since. Just because the equations that describe the decay have a predictive accuracy of many millions of decimal places should not distract us from the fact the God may have altered them in the beginning to do His Great Work. After all, God can do anything, can't he?"

I'm not exactly sure what work of Dr Humphrey's your actually referring to but I would like to point out that accusations of insanity are often used when the accuser lacks evidence. In the case of Humphreys it obviously needs pointing out that he is a retired nuclear physicist at the prestigious Sandia National Laboratories and has contributed many articles to secular scientific journals as well as receiving awards for scientific excellence.

"Thanks for your guidance Gim, I shall now go and convert heretics and apostates to the Word of God, preaching hatred for gays (and any other sexual perverts we're not keen on) and love for Jesus!!!"

Your being silly, now, aren't you? Nobody on this thread has advocated hatred for gays or "other sexual perverts" and you know it. It has been said that homosexual genital acts are inherently unhealthy and dangerous but thats simply the truth isn't it? the fact is that all people are sinners and in need of God's forgiveness and there are plenty of worse sins than homosexual acts - religious hypocrisy for an example.

Your other points I've answered in one form or another on recent posts.

Regards,
GBG

P.S I think your saying you're bored of this so if you don't respond to this post I will take it that way.
Have a happy life.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

206. Comment #22481 by gimlibengloin on February 19, 2007 at 10:00 am

fonex_86 (203)

f86? No way! Are you the same as epeeist or you're just responding to my post to him/her?


"The article, 'It's Not Science', claims that many scientists are 'philosophically ignorant' -- this is rather curious, since, after reading the writer's bio, it appears that he himself has had little philosophical training! Is he one of those 'many ignorant scientists'?"

Ha, ha, crafty aren't you? I don't know what Dr Batten's philosophical knowledge is like but from the article it appears that he has some. I'm sure you'd agree that its not necessary to have formal training in a subject to be knowledgable about it. After all when Darwin set sail on the Beagle and did his 'groundbreaking' work his only qualification was in THEOLOGY!! Its always rather amusing to hear evolutionists (not yourself by the way, this isn't an attack) critising Dr MacIntosh of leeds Uni for his lack of biological qualifications or the biologist Phillip Bell for only having an undergraduate degree in Zoology when you consider Darwin's. However, whats important essentially is the person's intellectual acumen. Everybody respects patrick Moores views on astronomy even though he's 'only' an amateur.

"As in many other pro-creation (no pun intended) literature, many of those articles are examples of what I call the 'cookie-jar-temptation'. Some people just can't keep their hands out of other people's cookie jars: an (in)famous example of this would be Fred Hoyle -- He was a great scientist, but his field of expertise was astronomy/cosmology, and not evolutionary biology/antropology/geology (or some other field more directly relevant to 'evolution') which he (incorrectly) criticized so vehemently."

Again, the same point could be made. I've often thought that evolutionists use the (sometimes only alleged) lack of certain qualifications as an excuse to ignore what the person's saying. In regard to Hoyle he was on of the greatest mathematical physicists ever. Therefore, in regard to his ability to state the true probability of random formation of molecules and the first cell I would say he was eminently qualified.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

207. Comment #22484 by gimlibengloin on February 19, 2007 at 10:09 am

fonex_86 continued

"One of the biggest problems I've always had with creationists is that they never propose a scientfically sound alternative ('God did it' is NO alternative) -- for example, to prove that dinos were 7000 years old, maybe they could theorize that radioactive particles decay differently than currently believed, AND have conclusive evidence to support that theory. So far I have failed to find any such alternative. For an example of valid alternative theories, you should look into the history of the Big Bang vs. Steady-State cosmologies."

Well, firstly one would have to know your criteria for judging something as "scientifically sound". The American geneticist and evolutionist Richard Lewontin stated explicitly that "we cannot allow a Divine foot in the door" because we have an "a priori commitment to materialism". Now if thats your position then obviously one couldn't provide a scientifically satisfactory version of creationism.

However, I agree that the notion that dinosaurs are only 6,000 years old is not subject to scientific proof. Theres no way of proving it and I don't know of a creationist who would argue that it is. However, they would argue that there are certain features prevalent in objects known to be designed which we also see in dinosaurs and other organisms. Therefore, it is possible to say they were designed. Similarly it is possible to use the Bible as a metanarrative to see how well it explains life, the universe, and everything?

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

208. Comment #22493 by Hoddlwood on February 19, 2007 at 2:11 pm

You're right Gimwhateverurcalled, I am bored.

Nothing you have said is representative of the evidence. Indeed the sheer volume and frequency of your posts implies an obsessive nature (e.g. your interest in 'homosexual genital acts') on your part. I can therefore not win a 'debate' with you as you can only 'see' that which you want to.

I don't wish you a happy life.

Other Comments by Hoddlwood

209. Comment #22498 by gimlibengloin on February 19, 2007 at 2:28 pm

Hoddlwood (208)

"Indeed the sheer volume and frequency of your posts implies an obsessive nature (e.g. your interest in 'homosexual genital acts') on your part."

But I'm merely responding to you, woody. You/and other atheists have brought the issue up not me. If you insist on making silly accusations about "hatred for gays" (which you also made against Mr Packer) it is clearly you who have the obsession and only you know why.

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210. Comment #22552 by Hoddlwood on February 19, 2007 at 2:57 pm

Gim,
It was Packer who mentioned intolerance towards homosexuality first, not me (I know not why). I was insulted by his homophobia, and general bigotry. You were quick to chip in that homosexuality is a perversion. Look back at the earlier posts and see. I find that, and virtually everything you say, offensive.

Good bye.

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211. Comment #22563 by gimlibengloin on February 19, 2007 at 3:32 pm

Hoddlwood (210)

"You were quick to chip in that homosexuality is a perversion"

Not at all, dude. NoLongerHaveBelief (150) brought up the issue of homosexuality WITH ME to which I DID NOT RESPOND.

Then NoLongerHaveBelief brought it up again (157)to which I did respond (166).

So I wasn't quick to "chip in" as you put it.

Now your gonna accuse me of being too slow to respond aren't you?

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

212. Comment #22626 by Hoddlwood on February 20, 2007 at 6:10 am

NoLongerHaveBelief does not speak for me, we 'athiests' are not part of a team. We think for ourselves, rather than follow an old, dusty, work of fiction...sorry, I mean Word of God.

Regardless Gim, it's over. For the sake of sanity I concede. You win, you're right. The world is 6,000 years old, dinosaurs walked with humans, God created light from darkness (contrary to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics) and gays will rot in hell. May I also add that women should know their place as well? Actually, don't answer that as I don't care.

You can now go and tell all your friends (do you actually have any?) that you 'beat' the Athiests in 'debate'.

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213. Comment #22633 by epeeist on February 20, 2007 at 3:58 am

 avatarComment #22441 by gimlibengloin
Uh, unfortunately this is not correct. What your doing is taking texts out of their literary context and then interpreting them as if they were statements of fact.

You cheer me on for saying you can't cherry-pick, then you immediately claim that part of the text has a "literary context". Either you are cherry picking or you are demoting the bible to my status 2, i.e. the word of god as (mis-) interpreted by man.

As for Leviathan, is this the same monster that "Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth." You want him as a dinosaur, fine. But you have to accept the breathing fire bit as well.

Again this is incorrect and you havn't understood the difference between empirical science and evolutionary theory.

You must be joking. I actually have a Ph.D. in physics (and have been on summer schools with Peter Atkins, but that is another matter) and have lectured on the different interpretations of the philosophy of science between the Vienna school and Popper.

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214. Comment #22835 by gimlibengloin on February 23, 2007 at 2:03 pm

epeeist (213)

"You cheer me on for saying you can't cherry-pick, then you immediately claim that part of the text has a "literary context". Either you are cherry picking or you are demoting the bible to my status 2, i.e. the word of god as (mis-) interpreted by man."

I'm really not sure what you mean here.

"As for Leviathan, is this the same monster that "Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth." You want him as a dinosaur, fine. But you have to accept the breathing fire bit as well."

Again, I agree. The Bombardier Beetle is an example of an organism that ejects hot, noxious vapours from its body. We have other organisms that are capable of creating electrical charges. So why not with this creature in Job?

"I actually have a Ph.D. in physics (and have been on summer schools with Peter Atkins, but that is another matter) and have lectured on the different interpretations of the philosophy of science between the Vienna school and Popper."

In which case I'm honoured to be responding to you on this thread.
Nevertheless, it is the case that evolutionary theory is not the same as emprical science. Talking about alleged historical events that can't be observed, verified, repeated etc is not the same as the hardheaded scince that is used when getting rockets into space.
We didn't observe (for example)the evolution of reptiles into birds, we haven't repeated it in the laboratory, and even allowing for a few alleged transitions the fossil record is exceedingly poor. We don't observe such macro processes today nor living transitions/lineages.
Thus evolutionary theory is outside the scientific method and, in fact, I believe Mr Popper acknowledged that though he may have backtracked due to peer pressure.

Regards, GBG

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215. Comment #22932 by Dimitar on February 24, 2007 at 5:25 pm

GBG,
I have some questions for you:

1. Do you know of any secular scientists (i.e. most of them) that agree with you on this definition?

Only you, and other creationists, seem to define science like this. It is not for the religious to define science, it is for scientists. Yours is a religiously inspired definition.

2. If science cannot work in the way you say, why do Creationist websites publish papers that attempt to mimic the scientific model?

You say science cannot work on the past and yet you also claim there is a 'scientific' case for 6,000 year old creation; sounds a little hypocritical to me.

3. What evidence do you have for Popper's doubts about evolution?

4. What evidence do you have for the fact that he changed his mind due to 'peer pressure'?

Amongst what I know of Popper was that he was of a strong mind, and he if believed something then no amount of 'peer pressure' would change that; only a sound argument for the alternative. The mere notion of this is laughable. If he did change his mind he did it because he realised he was wrong. Assuming he thought evolution was unscientific in the first place, something of which I am yet to be convinced.

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216. Comment #23403 by gimlibengloin on February 28, 2007 at 1:16 pm

Dimitar
(215)

Heres a quote for you from Wikipedia on the Scientific Method:-

"The scientific method involves the following basic facets:

Observation. A constant feature of scientific inquiry.
Description. Information must be reliable, i.e., replicable (repeatable) as well as valid (relevant to the inquiry).
Prediction. Information must be valid for observations past, present, and future of given phenomena, i.e., purported "one shot" phenomena do not give rise to the capability to predict, nor to the ability to repeat an experiment.
Control. Actively and fairly sampling the range of possible occurrences, whenever possible and proper, as opposed to the passive acceptance of opportunistic data, is the best way to control or counterbalance the risk of empirical bias.
Falsifiability, or the elimination of plausible alternatives. This is a gradual process that requires repeated experiments by multiple researchers who must be able to replicate results in order to corroborate them. This requirement, one of the most frequently contended, leads to the following: All hypotheses and theories are in principle subject to disproof. Thus, there is a point at which there might be a consensus about a particular hypothesis or theory, yet it must in principle remain tentative. As a body of knowledge grows and a particular hypothesis or theory repeatedly brings predictable results, confidence in the hypothesis or theory increases.
Causal explanation. Many scientists and theorists on scientific method argue that concepts of causality are not obligatory to science, but are in fact well-defined only under particular, admittedly widespread conditions. Under these conditions the following requirements are generally regarded as important to scientific understanding:
Identification of causes. Identification of the causes of a particular phenomenon to the best achievable extent.
Covariation of events. The hypothesized causes must correlate with observed effects.
Time-order relationship. The hypothesized causes must precede the observed effects in time."

For you to ask for a secular scienntist who agrees that evolution is unscientific is a little naive, surely. However, you can see for yourself that evolutionary claims do not meet the previous criteria for science.
However, one will get secular scientists who will admit that their rejection of Divine influence in the areas of scientific investigation is based on bias. The american evolutionist and harvard University geneeticist Richard Lewontin admitted that secular scientists create a methodology of scientific research that enables them to produce the results they want to find because they "cannot allow a Divine foot in the door".

I don't believe that one can scientifically demonstrate that the earth is only 6,000 years old. I do believe that there is much scientific evidence that suggests the earth is far too young for evolution eg earths magnetic field, salt in the oceans, unwinding of galaxcies, human population size. I do think that the 'science' of historical reconstruction ie evolution or creation is not in the same realm as relativity or the laws of thermodynamics or the rotation of the earth.

I'll get back to you in a few days about Popper

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

217. Comment #23404 by gimlibengloin on February 28, 2007 at 1:23 pm

Dimitar

Here you are, a link on Popper:

www.creationism.org/csshs/v02n4p20.htm

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218. Comment #23416 by DerrickB on February 28, 2007 at 1:51 pm

grimlibenglion

Come on. This is just getting silly.
Please see
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_5_28/ai_n6194235:

Perhaps the best-known philosophical criticism of evolution was put forth by Karl Popper, who once claimed that "Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research program" (Unended Quest, 1976). Popper famously retracted his comments once it was explained to him that there was quite a bit more to the theory than he had understood from a cursory examination of the subject: "I have changed my mind about the testability and logical status of the theory of natural selection; and I am glad to have an opportunity to make a recantation" (Dialectica 32:344-346).

Your cursory understanding of science and ever more pathetic and erroneous attempts to justify the unjustifiable are becoming very tedious.

At least you are providing wonderful evidence of the nature and consequences of the God Delusion.

Other Comments by DerrickB

219. Comment #23420 by DerrickB on February 28, 2007 at 2:13 pm

and if anyone is interested in the Bombardier Beetle and why grimlibenglion mentioned it:

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3955_issue_03_volume_2_number_1__2_21_2003.asp#The%20Bombadier%20Beetle%20Myth%20Exploded

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220. Comment #23512 by gimlibengloin on March 1, 2007 at 11:14 am

DerrickB

"Popper famously retracted his comments once it was explained to him that there was quite a bit more to the theory than he had understood from a cursory examination of the subject: "I have changed my mind about the testability and logical status of the theory of natural selection; and I am glad to have an opportunity to make a recantation" (Dialectica 32:344-346)."

I wonder if you've even paid attention to the thread, DB. The retraction of Popper is the very issue. It seems strange that Popper would come out with such a clear case against the scientific credibility of Darwinism and then suddenly retract without providing a detailed critique of his former position. The Australian geneticist (a non-creationist) Michael Denton states, "The transformation of darwinian theory into dogma is evidenced also by the hostility that is directed towards the dissidents from orthodoxy"
The american darwinist and atheist Michael Ruse has acknowledged his suspision that the principle inventor of the MRI was denied the Nobel prize because of his opposition to evolution and there is a case in the US at the moment over bias against such "disidents"

So its your ignorance that is coming out here.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

221. Comment #23513 by gimlibengloin on March 1, 2007 at 11:19 am

"and if anyone is interested in the Bombardier Beetle and why grimlibenglion mentioned it:"
You see, DB this is further proof that you're not paying attention. I didn't mention the B Beetle because I coonsider it a knockdown argument against evolution (though it is) but because Prof McIntosh has spent THREE YEARS researching it (the same length of time for a PhD) and this proves that he has biological credentials. I suggest that when reading the position of those you disagree with you at least do read them correctly not skim read them.

Regards, GBG

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222. Comment #23514 by BaronOchs on March 1, 2007 at 11:32 am

 avatarGood article about Bombadier Beetles here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bombardier.html

Other Comments by BaronOchs

223. Comment #23515 by BillySands on March 1, 2007 at 11:36 am

 avatarGBG,
I really am getting tired of your misinformed attacks on evolution. Where do you get this rubbish from? I'm still waiting for a detailed refutation of bird dinosaur liks from you. Would it not be fair to say that the only reason you have a problem with it is because it is non biblical? Your mind is therefore closed and I personally dont see any point continuing any discussion with you. There are plenty of transitional fossils, life does not appear suddenly, we have DNA evidence from LINES and SINES, we have pseudogenes, we have horizontal transfer, gene duplications, convertion of processed pseudogenes etc etc. And despite that, you would rather believe a book (which most certainly does say the earth is flat). In fact, you believe in a god you have never seen or heard. How is your bible any different to the koran? It is so full of errors, look at how hard you have to defend it. It is no different to the koran in that respect. At least we both agree that is not a divenely inspired book.

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224. Comment #23516 by BillySands on March 1, 2007 at 11:44 am

 avatarBaronOchs,
GBG and other IDist like to simply look at life and go "wow, that is really complex, it can only be gods work".
I have suggested he reads about opsin gene evolution and "fossil" genes in the past. He has a closed mind and despite the overwhelming evidence, he sticks to this delued and misinformed mantra of "no transitional fossils exist", "a fly produces a fly" etc. He either is not listening, or has decided evolution is wrong, and nothing is going to change his mind. Personally i think that is his loss. i think understanding molecular evolution makes organisms that much more wonderful.

Other Comments by BillySands

225. Comment #23529 by Dimitar on March 1, 2007 at 1:16 pm

Indeed, it is very silly. We are defining science by Wikipedia now, are we? Really GBG, surely you can do better than that?

You neglected to mention that Wikipedia goes on to say: "These activities do not describe all that scientists do but apply mostly to experimental sciences (e.g., physics, chemistry)."

So, not only do you use Wikipedia to define scientific method (something no credible person would ever do) but you neglect to quote the part that says that its own definition is limited. Indeed by your definition, even Astronomy is not a science, as it does not allow experimentation and can only describe the past. Just because one cannot repeat a supernova doesn't make it an unscientific observation. Your definition of science is immature, narrow and a little stupid.

Also your hyperlink does not seem to mention Popper's U-turn; why is that? Why does it labour a point that has since been recanted by the person who made it? Is this not a little economical with the truth? I thought that Christians considered that lying is a sin? What a shameful, propagandist link.

I can see now that Popper did once doubt evolution (See, GBG, how I changed my view in the light of new evidence, can you?). But he changed his mind so we can safely cast his original doubts to the dustbin; caused as they were by his misconceptions regarding the nature of evolutionary theory. Unless you can find evidence that it really was down to "peer pressure"?

Interestingly, you ignore that fact that even 'real' science (by your definition, of course) has provided evidence of an old earth. After all, the equations of quantum mechanics are incredibly predictive about radioactive decay. Richard Feynman likened their accuracy to being able to measure the size of the USA with an error margin of a hairs breadth. The SAME theoretical framework gives us an estimate of the age of the earth in the billions of years, not thousands. So even the scientific method you support does not provide evidence to correlate with your 'theory'.

You also said: "Richard Lewontin admitted that secular scientists create a methodology of scientific research that enables them to produce the results they want to find because they "cannot allow a Divine foot in the door"."

This is a shameful out-of-context quotation. "Enables them to produce the results they want to find"??? These are YOUR words, not his. Another example of a Creationist being less than truthful. Presumably you'll recant this sin before getting into heaven?

Other Comments by Dimitar

226. Comment #23694 by gimlibengloin on March 2, 2007 at 5:37 am

Billy

"There are plenty of transitional fossils, life does not appear suddenly,"

Sorry, but the experts say otherwise. Darwin admitted it in the Origin and in 1979 Colin Patterson admitted that the situation was even worse because previous cases eg the horse had been rejected. In 1979 Steven Stanley admitted what I've quoted either on this thread or the Christadelphian thread ie NO TRANSITIONS and the Noveber 2004 edition of National Geographic said 99.9% of the fossil evidence for evolution can't be found.

"we have DNA evidence from LINES and SINES, we have pseudogenes, we have horizontal transfer, gene duplications, convertion of processed pseudogenes etc etc."

None of these explain the origin of new characteristics and new information though. Its no good pointing to instances of rearrangement and reoccurence of existing information and using this as evidence for a process that claims to bring it into being in the first place. HAVE YOU READ THAT SPETNER/MAX DEBATE YET.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

227. Comment #23697 by gimlibengloin on March 2, 2007 at 5:47 am

Dimitar

"You neglected to mention that Wikipedia goes on to say: "These activities do not describe all that scientists do but apply mostly to experimental sciences (e.g., physics, chemistry)."

Thats my point EVOLUTION IS NOT EXPERIMENTAL SCIENCE AND THEREFORE ACCUSATIONS THAT CREATIONIST REJECTION OF EVOLUTION MEANS THEY REJECT THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD IS MISPLACED.

In regard to Popper he was a leading philosopher of science and therefore his views had to be taken seriously. Since we know he made a case against Darwinism as science which he subsequently retracted WITH NO DEMONSTRATED GOOD REASON we are entitled to belabour the point.

I too change my views and am not closed minded though I have come to fixed views on some things. I have often changed my doctrinal views as a result of reading christian scholars and I have also been impacted by some questions that Billy Sands and Brian have raised. I do admit that I'm not at all convinced by evolution and thats because (1) it contradicts scripture (as Billy admits) and (2)I've read Dawkins, Gould, Mayr PLUS the creationists ReMine, Spetner, and Sarfati PLUS the ID'ers Johnson, Behe PLUS the sceptical Michael Denton AND I THINK EVOLUTION IS CACK.

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228. Comment #23700 by gimlibengloin on March 2, 2007 at 5:54 am

Dimitar

"You also said: "Richard Lewontin admitted that secular scientists create a methodology of scientific research that enables them to produce the results they want to find because they "cannot allow a Divine foot in the door"."

This is a shameful out-of-context quotation. "Enables them to produce the results they want to find"??? These are YOUR words, not his. Another example of a Creationist being less than truthful. Presumably you'll recant this sin before getting into heaven?"

Since you've already admitted that you've had to change your view somewhat in regard to Popper I would have thought you might be a little more careful. Lewontin said (to be exact):

"we are forced by our a priori adherence to materialism to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations no matter how counterintuitive no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute for we cannot allow a Divine foot in the door"

NOTE: Lewontin says that secular scientists CREATE a METHOD that PRODUCES THE RESULTS THEY WANT TO FIND namely MATERIAL EXPLANATIONS.

So no I don't think I will be recanting before I get to heaven

Regards, GBG

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

229. Comment #23703 by epeeist on March 2, 2007 at 6:09 am

 avatarComment #22835 by gimlibengloin
Nevertheless, it is the case that evolutionary theory is not the same as emprical science. Talking about alleged historical events that can't be observed, verified, repeated etc is not the same as the hardheaded scince that is used when getting rockets into space.

You are suddenly strong on the need for empiricism. Excellent, a definite improvement.

So, lets see some hard empirical evidence for your alleged historical creation and intelligent design that has been observed, verified and repeated.

Oh - and the bible isn't it. As you confirm, it is all "literary and historical context".

Other Comments by epeeist

230. Comment #23731 by Dimitar on March 2, 2007 at 9:22 am

GBG,
You typed a lot, but said very little:

"Thats my point EVOLUTION IS NOT EXPERIMENTAL SCIENCE AND THEREFORE ACCUSATIONS THAT CREATIONIST REJECTION OF EVOLUTION MEANS THEY REJECT THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD IS MISPLACED."

Er…no. Your point was "that evolutionary claims do not meet the [Wikipedian] criteria for science" (GBG, Comment #23403). I pointed out that Wikipedia acknowledged that the definition is narrow and does not include all scientists' work, as well as it being a poor source in the first place. You then ignored all of this to make a spurious remark using excessive capitals. You said that evolution was not scientific; it is. That is the point I was making. I couldn't care less whether you reject the scientific method or not, but you definitely do not understand it.




"In regard to Popper he was a leading philosopher of science and therefore his views had to be taken seriously. Since we know he made a case against Darwinism as science which he subsequently retracted WITH NO DEMONSTRATED GOOD REASON we are entitled to belabour the point."

What is your evidence that he 'demonstrated no good reason'? I've asked for this three times, please answer.




"I too change my views and am not closed minded though I have come to fixed views on some things."

Let me get this straight. Your mind is not closed, but you have fixed views on some things? Am I alone in seeing a contradiction here?




"I do admit that I'm not at all convinced by evolution and thats because (1) it contradicts scripture (as Billy admits) and (2)I've read Dawkins, Gould, Mayr PLUS the creationists ReMine, Spetner, and Sarfati PLUS the ID'ers Johnson, Behe PLUS the sceptical Michael Denton AND I THINK EVOLUTION IS CACK."

Thanks for this reasoned response: you've read some stuff, evolution contradicts scripture and it is cack. Great, that is very insightful.



RE: Lewontin,

""we are forced by our a priori adherence to materialism to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations no matter how counterintuitive no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute for we cannot allow a Divine foot in the door"
NOTE: Lewontin says that secular scientists CREATE a METHOD that PRODUCES THE RESULTS THEY WANT TO FIND namely MATERIAL EXPLANATIONS."

Where does he mention that he creates a method to "produce results he WANTS to find"? He actually says that an adherence to materialist method produces materialist results; much in the same way that a theological approach (e.g. ID) produces theological results.

Newton may have been religious, but he was a NATURAL philosopher, not a supernatural one. He got 'materialist' results too (although I prefer the term NATURAL). It amazes me that Creationists keep using the Lewontin quote as 'evidence' for something that even devout Christian scientists like Newton have always acknowledged: Science has ALWAYS been naturalistic.

Lewontin is not saying that methods are massaged to get desired results; he is saying that science, BY DEFINITION, is not concerned with the supernatural, just the natural. Put it like this: there is a material world out there and we want to know how it works. If we want to know how the supernatural world works, how do we go about it? You Creationists often criticise science for being 'materialist', but never seem to outline what a spiritual (?) or supernatural (?) science would 'look like'. Why not? Is it because such a concept is, to use your terminology, cack?


"So no I don't think I will be recanting before I get to heaven"

You are right here, you are not a sinful liar, just a deluded, ignorant fool.

Other Comments by Dimitar

231. Comment #23739 by Mikado on March 2, 2007 at 10:44 am

I have just one question to any creationists: Explain the human teeth, why did god love dentists so much that he/she/it did not provide us with a better set of teeth?

Other Comments by Mikado

232. Comment #23887 by gimlibengloin on March 3, 2007 at 11:19 am

Dimitar (230)

"Er…no. Your point was "that evolutionary claims do not meet the [Wikipedian] criteria for science" (GBG, Comment #23403). I pointed out that Wikipedia acknowledged that the definition is narrow and does not include all scientists' work, as well as it being a poor source in the first place. You then ignored all of this to make a spurious remark using excessive capitals. You said that evolution was not scientific; it is. That is the point I was making."

If you follow the thread you will note that this goes back to epeeist (197) who asserted that to reject the claim for the earth being billions of years old means the rejection of evolution AND CHEMISTRY, PHYSICS, AND THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD. I've asserted that this is incorrect because evolutionary theory does not conform to the scientific method. Your post was a response to MY REPLY TO EPEEIST and in 225 you said,

'You neglected to mention that Wikipedia goes on to say: "These activities do not describe all that scientists do but apply mostly to experimental sciences (e.g., physics, chemistry)."'

DOH!!!

"What is your evidence that he 'demonstrated no good reason'? I've asked for this three times, please answer."

Well, my evidence for it would be that he failed to demonstrate any good reason for his change of mind. If you dispute this then provide the evidence.

"Let me get this straight. Your mind is not closed, but you have fixed views on some things? Am I alone in seeing a contradiction here?"

If you read my post you will see that I'm responding to the insinuations made by you (225)and Billy (224)that my mind is effectively closed. To admit that I have fixed views on some things is no different to anybody and is no contradiction.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

233. Comment #23888 by gimlibengloin on March 3, 2007 at 11:27 am

Dimitar (230)

"Where does he mention that he creates a method to "produce results he WANTS to find"? He actually says that an adherence to materialist method produces materialist results; much in the same way that a theological approach (e.g. ID) produces theological results.

Newton may have been religious, but he was a NATURAL philosopher, not a supernatural one. He got 'materialist' results too (although I prefer the term NATURAL). It amazes me that Creationists keep using the Lewontin quote as 'evidence' for something that even devout Christian scientists like Newton have always acknowledged: Science has ALWAYS been naturalistic.

Lewontin is not saying that methods are massaged to get desired results; he is saying that science, BY DEFINITION, is not concerned with the supernatural, just the natural. Put it like this: there is a material world out there and we want to know how it works."

Lewontin said, "It is not that the methods and the institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world but on the contrary that we are forced by our a priori adherence to materialism...etc"

Lewontin admits that scientific methods do not necessitate that people like himself and Sagan (whose book he was reviewing) produce material explanations. Instead because they had an A PRIORI belief in materialism and because they can't allow a Divine foot in the door THEREFORE they create a methodolgy that produces results in accord with their materialistic bias.

Sorry D but you're wrong.

"You are right here, you are not a sinful liar, just a deluded, ignorant fool."

How charming. Are you Hoddlwood in disguise?

Regards, GBG

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

234. Comment #23963 by Dimitar on March 3, 2007 at 7:15 pm

GBG,
You seem to have your wires crossed.

I asked you whether anyone in the world of science (by secular I did not mean atheist, just not religiously influenced, like you) agreed with your definition of science. Your response was to paste in Wikipedia and then say that evolution does not agree with it and by implication it is not science. I responded that a) wikipedia is a shit source b) this shit source also included a crucial caveat that you ignored and therefore is not even representative of ALL science. You have not really answered this point. The fact is that only religiously inspired creationists think of science like you do. Scientists do not agree. It is a bit like an atheist telling a priest what religion really should be like, "Forget faith, Father. Use evidence!"

You accuse science of being materialist and having materialist assumptions. This is not denied; it is because science has ALWAYS been about the material world. Living things are part of the material world and evolution is a brilliant 'materialist' description of the 'material' evidence. Fossils are real, rocks are real, and genes are real. They exist, and therefore fall under 'materialist' explanations. I should mention that the term 'materialist' is meaningless to me as I consider EVERYTHING to be 'material'. So I don't really see what your point about Lewontin is. What would science be if it did not have this 'a priori' assumption that you Creationists hate? It would be a religion.

You can't have an open mind with 'fixed views on some things'. It is oxymoronic. If you can't even see this contradiction then you are probably just moronic.

RE: Popper – it was YOU that said he relented possibly due to 'peer pressure' (rather than reason). Why should I do the homework to research a claim that YOU made? If you make a claim, then support it with evidence. Otherwise don't say anything at all.
Regards,
Dimitar

Other Comments by Dimitar

235. Comment #24010 by Dimitar on March 4, 2007 at 6:45 am

GBG,
I have decided on reflection, to do your homework for you. Here is a quote from Popper BEFORE his 'recantation':

"And yet, the theory [Natural Selection] is invaluable. I do not see how, without it, our knowledge could have grown as it has done since Darwin. In trying to explain experiments with bacteria which become adapted to, say, penicillin, it is quite clear that we are greatly helped by the theory of natural selection. Although it is metaphysical, it sheds much light upon very concrete and very practical researches. It allows us to study adaptation to a new environment (such as a penicillin-infested environment) in a rational way: it suggests the existence of a mechanism of adaptation, and it allows us even to study in detail the mechanism at work. And it is the only theory so far which does all that."

So it seems that even though he had doubts that it was properly scientific, he did not think it without value in a scientific sense. This is interesting when you compare his view on theism as an explanation of adaptation which he said "was worse than an open admission of failure, for it created the impression that an ultimate explanation had been reached".


So even when Popper doubted evolution (although actually it was just Natural Selection he doubted not the whole theory) he still thought it had immense practical use as a theory that was far in excess of theism. Theism, on the other hand he dismissed outright. It is interesting then that you should use him as 'evidence' for the 'unscientific' nature of evolution when he would have poured even more scorn on your creationist 'science'.

So if you are to use Popper to cast doubt on evolution you should also use him to doubt the value of theism as an explanatory theory. It is interesting that you ignored this. The usual cherry-picking Creationist out-of-context quote mining.


Regarding his recantation, Popper said:

"I have changed my mind about the testability and logical status of the theory of natural selection; and I am glad to have an opportunity to make a recantation... The theory of natural selection may be so formulated that it is far from tautological. In this case it is not only testable, but it turns out to be not strictly universally true. There seem to be exceptions, as with so many biological theories; and considering the random character of the variations which natural selection operates, the occurrence of exceptions is not surprising." (Popper, "Natural Selection and the Emergence of Mind," _Dialectica_ 32(1978):339-355; quotations are from pp. 344-346)




"It does appear that some people think that I denied scientific character to the historical sciences, such as palaeontology, or the history of the evolution of life on Earth. This is a mistake, and I here wish to affirm that these and other historical sciences have in my opinion scientific character; their hypotheses can in many cases be tested." (Popper, Letter to _New Scientist_, 87(1981):611)

You may not agree with him, but I see no evidence of 'peer pressure' here. You just don't have the evidence to support your views GBG. This is why I called you foolish (and I am not alone in this judgement, it seems); you seem to ignore the facts in pursuit of supporting your own preconceptions. Presumably this is a consequence of having a mind that is fixed in some areas?

Other Comments by Dimitar

236. Comment #25354 by gimlibengloin on March 12, 2007 at 1:12 pm

Dimitar

"You have not really answered this point."

Not so. I have answered but you're not listening. I asserted that evolution wasn't the same as the hard-headed science involved in sending rockets into space etc ie repeatable, verifiable, testable science. You implicitly acknowledged this when you stated that the wikipedia quote refers to chmistry and physics.


"You accuse science of being materialist and having materialist assumptions. This is not denied; it is because science has ALWAYS been about the material world. Living things are part of the material world and evolution is a brilliant 'materialist' description of the 'material' evidence. Fossils are real, rocks are real, and genes are real. They exist, and therefore fall under 'materialist' explanations. I should mention that the term 'materialist' is meaningless to me as I consider EVERYTHING to be 'material'. So I don't really see what your point about Lewontin is. What would science be if it did not have this 'a priori' assumption that you Creationists hate? It would be a religion."

Sorry you're wrong again and this is pure sophistry. Stating that science deals with the material is not the same as the materialist assumptions that lewontin admits he holds. he is admitting that he has an a priri bias against non-materialist explanations for the material world.
lewontin is talking about "materialist explanations" not material phenomena. PAY ATTENTION!!!

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

237. Comment #25356 by gimlibengloin on March 12, 2007 at 1:19 pm

Dimitar

"Fossils are real, rocks are real, and genes are real. They exist, and therefore fall under 'materialist' explanations."

However, Lewontin said, "It is not that the methods and the institutions of science somehow compel us to accept A MATERIAL EXPLANATION OF THE PHENOMENAL WORLD but on the contrary that we are forced by our a priori adherence to materialism...etc"

You should be a Buddhist, mate. Arguing that the material eg "fossils" are their own material "explanation" is akin to the buddhist scholar Dr Rahula's belief that 'the thought itself is what thinks'[?????].

in regard to Popper I'm going to have to get back to you on him because my I'net connection keeps breaking down. It could be a few days or a few weeks.

regards, GBG

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

238. Comment #25362 by BaronOchs on March 12, 2007 at 2:48 pm

 avatarGimli isn't the most important thing making a model that explains the phenomena at hand and that really makes testable predictions? If moving away from materialist assumptions (whatever that means) might allow a good model that really explains something then that theory and its distinct metaphysics should stand up for itself in a peer reviewed journal.

In reality all materialism means is explaining the universe on its own terms. This perhaps gets the point across:

"Because Darwin's principles of explanation are immanent, functional and "historical" they really illuminate the mutual adaptation of insect and orchid, the stag's antlers and the peacock's courtship. By contrast Paley's view of nature . . .is strangely uninformative. Paley claims there is a benevolent world-making and world-directing providence. Can we then specify what the purpose of cosmic history is and predict the next few turns in the plot? - Of course not. Can we at least say for sure that nothing very nasty is going to happen to us? -No. Here is an attractive, edible-looking berry . . .can I safely predict from the theory of the Great Designer's benevolence that this berry will turn out to be nutritious? -I certainly cannot. Then just how informative is Paley's theory?"

~Don Cupitt, Taking Leave of God, SCM Press 1980


Other Comments by BaronOchs

239. Comment #25602 by Dimitar on March 14, 2007 at 9:28 am

GBG,
"I asserted that evolution wasn't the same as the hard-headed science involved in sending rockets into space etc ie repeatable, verifiable, testable science. You implicitly acknowledged this when you stated that the wikipedia quote refers to chmistry and physics."

I never said that evolution was the same as rocket science (or physics). I just said that that they are BOTH science. The Wikipedian definition is too narrow. That was my point. You just fail to acknowledge that. You define repeatability, verifiability and testability only as that which applies to physics. The scientific community does not agree with you. Some parts of the religious community do, however. Hence my request for evidence of scientists (who are not religiously influenced) who agree with you that science is defined as narrowly as you do. You have not answered this point, you have ignored it.


"lewontin is talking about "materialist explanations" not material phenomena. PAY ATTENTION!!!"

I am; I don't see a distinction. Science looks for material explanations of material phenomena. If you want to make non-materialist (ie supernatural) explanations it CEASES TO BE SCIENCE. That is the point Lewontin is making. There is no evidence for non-material explanations. All you have is an absence of a material explanations in some cases that you wish to insert God into. This is not science. Never has been.
Newton never worked like this, Faraday never worked like this, and obviously Darwin never worked like this. That is why they are called scientists, not priests.

You seem to want a redefinition that no one else agrees with. Can I suggest the same applies to religion? I resent that fact that religion has an 'a priori' assumption that there is NO material explanation for the world. Perhaps religion should ditch the assumption that God definitely exists and start entertaining the possibility that he does not. Until you do this then science has no need to change in its assumption.

This is not to suggest parity between these two approaches because, as BaronOchs points out, science is useful. It makes predictions that can be tested against future observations. What is the use of religious views in this regard? What predictions does your creation 'science' make? None.


"You should be a Buddhist, mate. Arguing that the material eg "fossils" are their own material "explanation" is akin to the buddhist scholar Dr Rahula's belief that 'the thought itself is what thinks'[?????]."

Do you actually read what I write? Given there is no evidence of a non-material (or supernatural?) world why should I maintain an assumption that such a thing exists? The material world however is choc full of evidence for its existence. Not only that our 'materialist' explanations are useful in predicting future observations in the material world. This is something you just ignore with respect to evolution. Thankfully most others do not.

Your mind is in no way open. It is fixed.

Other Comments by Dimitar

240. Comment #26948 by gimlibengloin on March 22, 2007 at 1:20 pm

BaronOchs (and Dimitar)
(238 & 239)
"its distinct metaphysics should stand up for itself in a peer reviewed journal."

True, but who are the editors of these peer reviewed journals and what is their attitude towards non-materialistic explanations? As I've already pointed out just previously it is even admitted by Darwinists like Michael Ruse that there is a bias against creationists and Iders a bias that prevents them from receiving their just rewards. In fact only a few weeks ago on this site there was a thread discussing the controversy over an American geology student who has obtained a PhD despite being a creationist (he managed to hide his beliefs). An American astrophysicist Dr Jason Lisle who graduated summa cum laude in physics and astronomy still had to write technical articles espousing creationism under a pseudonym 'Robert Newton' because of this prejudice.
For proof see

www.souder.house.gov/_files/IntoleranceandthePoliticizationof ScienceattheSmithsonian.pdf

www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1784/

However, the fact remains that there are world-class scientists out there who are creationists and who are making significant contributions to science AND who are making such contributions as an outcome of their creationism. For example the Los Alamos geophysicist Dr John Baumgardner who created a computer system TERRA to model plate techtonics a system that is now being used by NASA. In fact NASA regard his work so highly they are allowing him to spend 50% of his time on creationist research.
See

http://globalflood.org/papers/geophysicsofgod.html


Don Cupitt's assertions are not really helpful. He claims,

"Because Darwin's principles of explanation are immanent, functional and "historical" they really illuminate the mutual adaptation of insect and orchid, the stag's antlers and the peacock's courtship."

But at least on the evidence of this quote he doesn't explain how Darwinism "illuminates" nor as to how its illumination contrasts with the Design Argument.
One doesn't need Darwinism to do such illuminating and on the evidence of Richard dawkins attempts in Climbing Mt Improbable it singularly fails.

He questions whether creationism enables us to

"specify what the purpose of cosmic history is and predict the next few turns in the plot? ….[or] say for sure that nothing very nasty is going to happen to us?"

However, all too many evolutionists will admit that there is no such purpose within a Darwinian framework - we are simply here and we have to make the best of it. Neither does Darwinism enable us to "predict the next few turns in the plot" because no one ultimately has a clue what random mutation and natural selection are going to do.

Dimitar (239)

"I never said that evolution was the same as rocket science (or physics). I just said that that they are BOTH science"

What, in the sense that astrology and astronomy are both science you mean?

However, if you want an authority whose opinions are not derived from a religious base then how about the Australian geneticist and Senior Research scientist at Otago University in New Zealand Dr Michael Denton

"philosophers and historians of science will probably be debating the nature of the Darwinian revolution for years to come, but whatever their final verdict on this event, the facts themselves were not sufficient to compel belief in the continuity of living nature or to establish beyond reasonable doubt that the whole drama of life on earth was generated by the sorts of random processes responsible for microevolution on the Galapagos Islands.
As the years passed …and as evolution became more and more consolidated into dogma, the gestalt of continuity imposed itself on every facet of biology. The discontinuities of nature could no longer be perceived. Consequently debate slackened and there was less need to justify the idea of evolution by reference to the facts.
Increasingly, its highly theoretical and metaphysical nature was forgotten, and gradually Darwinian concepts came to permeate every aspect of biological thought so that today all biological phenomena are interpreted in Darwinian terms and every professional biologist is subject throughout his working life to continued affirmation of the truth of Darwinian theory.

It is not surprising that…many biologists are confused as to…its metaphysical basis……Richard Dawkins…is emphatic, for him,

'The theory is about as much in doubt as the earth goes around the sun'.

Now of course such claims are simply nonsense. For Darwin's model of evolution…….BEING BASICALLY A THEORY OF HISTORICAL RECONSTRUCTION..IS IMPOSSIBLE TO VERIFY BY EXPERIMENT OR DIRECT OBSERVATION AS IS NORMAL IN SCIENCE….MOREOVER, THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION DEALS WITH A SERIES OF UNIQUE EVENTS, THE ORIGIN OF LIFE, THE ORIGIN OF INTELLIGENCE AND SO ON. UNIQUE EVENTS ARE UNREPEATABLE AND CANNOT BE SUBJECTED TO ANY SORT OF EXPERIMENTAL INVESTIGATION….THEIR CAUSATION CAN, STRICTLY SPEAKING, NEVER BE SUBJECT TO SCIENTIFIC VALIDATION. Furthermore, not only is the theory incapable of proof by NORMAL SCIENTIFIC MEANS, the evidence is…far from compelling

It is ironic to reflect that while Darwin once considered it heretical to question the immutability of species, NOWADAYS IT IS HERETICAL TO QUESTION THE IDEA OF EVOLUTION."

- Evolution: A Theory in Crisis pp74-76 (my emphasis)

Regards, GBG

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241. Comment #27281 by BaronOchs on March 23, 2007 at 5:45 pm

 avatarOnce again thankyou for your response Gimli. The recurring theme here seems to concern the falsifiability, or otherwise of evolution.

Talk origins have this little piece going over the basics but their article needs expanding on so I will do so here.

Evolution postulates the common ancestry of all organisms. If any organisms are said to share common ancestry it would follow that they would share similarities in their DNA sequence. Not only that, you'd expect evidence of this in quite idiosyncratic non-consequential parts of the sequence. In other words you'd expect some similarity in junk DNA. As it happens this is the case. This diagram shows shared elements of junk dna between organisms sharing common ancestry.

I just made a falsifiable evolutionary claim which hasn't been falsified.

Now I'm not sure how i'm supposed to demonstrate that the reason creationism doesn't make scientific journals is because it just doesn't cut it, not because of some materialist conspiracy. At any rate I can point out the claims of creationists and IDers have been taken seriously by scientists and answered in books like this.

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242. Comment #27286 by BaronOchs on March 23, 2007 at 6:14 pm

 avatarRegarding the comment I quoted regarding "the next few turns in the plot of cosmic history" I see now this is ambiguous language. All that is meant is Science can actually predict the fate of the universe and elements within it. For instance we can make detailed models about the life-cycles of stars or predict the fact that the Andromeda galaxy will eventually collide with the Milky Way.

Equally evolution would allow you to make predictions as to what will occur in given scenarios. You can also identify recurrent themes, things that because of their usefulness can be expected to be stumbled upon again and again. Daniel Dennett calls these "Good Tricks"

But these are just series of events resulting from the interaction of natural forces, there is no plot or meaning to it, and sorry if the language used suggested otherwise.

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243. Comment #27287 by BaronOchs on March 23, 2007 at 6:30 pm

 avatar
But at least on the evidence of this quote he doesn't explain how Darwinism "illuminates" nor as to how its illumination contrasts with the Design Argument.
One doesn't need Darwinism to do such illuminating and on the evidence of Richard dawkins attempts in Climbing Mt Improbable it singularly fails.


I would care to see an example of just one observed phenomena, our understanding of which is illuminated by the design argument.

You claim Dawkins fails in Climbing Mt Improbable; please either substantiate that claim, citing relevant passages of the book, or abandon it.

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244. Comment #27349 by gimlibengloin on March 24, 2007 at 7:32 am

Dimitar (239)

"I don't see a distinction. Science looks for material explanations of material phenomena. If you want to make non-materialist (ie supernatural) explanations it CEASES TO BE SCIENCE. That is the point Lewontin is making. There is no evidence for non-material explanations."

What Lewontin was saying and what I am pointing out is that that very definition "science looks for material explanations of material phenomena" is based upon what Lewontin terms "an a priori adherence to material causes" because he "cannot allow a Divine foot in the door".
This is the point.
Its no good you and your like-minded brethren complaining about creationists not publishing their theories in the scientific journals because as Lewontin has stated (and as you will see further on 2 of the 3 web addresses I gave in my previous post) the evolutionary priesthood won't ALLOW A DIVINE FOOT IN THE DOOR.
Lewontin is admitting that this definition of science is not based on empirical fact nor on the requirements of the "methods and institutions of science" but rather upon a prior commitment to material explanations. What you have to understand is that its not so much the facts that are being questioned but the presuppositions. This was one of the points made on the website I previously gave on the geophysicist Dr Baumgardner and his computer program TERRA. The computer program can depict a mechanism for Noah's Flood or it can depict the standard evolutionary scenario. IT ALL DEPENDS UPON THE ASSUMPTIONS YOU START OFF WITH AND THE MATHEMATICAL FORMULAE THROUGH WHICH THOSE ASSUMPTIONS ARE EXPRESSED. Stephen hawking acknowledged, "We are not able to make cosmological models without some admixture of ideology"

BaronOchs (241-243)

Some good points there B.O. I'll get back to you hopefully before the end of the day as I've got to dig out my copy of Climbing Mt Improbable.

Regards GBG

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245. Comment #27372 by gimlibengloin on March 24, 2007 at 8:56 am

BaronOchs (243)

OK, you wanted me to substantiate what I said about Climbing Mt Improbable.

On pp118-121 Prof Dawkins discusses the evolution of whales and sea-cows from land mammals. He writes,

"Fifty million years ago, the ancestors of whales and seacows (dugongs and manatees) were land dwelling mammals…..The ancestors of these and all other land dwelling mammals had been, much earlier still, sea dwelling fish. The return to the water by the whales and the dugongs was a homecoming".

Lets stop here for the moment to point out a few things. Note Dawkins claim "the ancestors……had been, much earlier still, sea dwelling fish". What the wily doctor is doing here is trying to convince you (the reader) that there was something inherently normal about land mammals returning to the sea and he does this by emphasising that according to the theory they had 'Once upon a time' had ancestors who were FISH. He also does it by claiming "the RETURN to the water by the whales and the dugongs was a homecoming".
Of course, the whales and the dugongs never did "return" to the water. Even if evolution was true they never returned to the water. What he should more truthfully have said is "the return to the water by the LAND MAMMALS was a home coming". But, of course, if he said that then it would undermine his attempt to fool the reader into believing the 'normality' of such a 'return' and it would emphasise just how idiotic is the theory that states that creatures as marvellously adapted to the oceans could have derived from four-legged land animals.

He continues,

"As always, we can be sure that it took place gradually. They took to the water, perhaps at first just to feed like a modern otter"

Again this is mere rhetoric designed to sooth away and lingering doubts in the reader. Modern otters are actually perfectly adapted for life in the water and on land. The land animals that whales allegedly descended from were not and in evolutionary texts they are depicted as akin to dogs.

"Nevertheless, they bear numerous reminders of their land dwelling ancestors"

Of the alleged "numerous reminders" Dawkins gives TWO:

"Whales breathe air, for their landlubber ancestors lost the use of their gills"

Talk about a circular argument.
Dawkins second evidence is that "all mammals, whales and seacows included, have traces of gills in the embryo: unmistakable vestiges of their remote past in the water"

This, of course, raises the uncomfortable question which Dawkins formulates as,
"When land animals return to the water…why don't whales and sea-cows regrow gills and lose their lungs?"

A very good question I'm sure you'll agree, Baron Ochs. What is the Professor's response?

"Perhaps they could have reformed them and come into line with the fishes, dusting off the embryonic vestiges of their ancient gills. BUT THAT WOULD HAVE MEANT A MASSIVE SHAKE UP OF THEIR BODILY INFRASTRUCTURE….it cannot be said too often that Darwinian theory DOES NOT ALLOW for getting temporarily worse in quest of a long-term goal".

If it wasn't for the fact that thousands of people are actually taking this nonsense seriously it would be funny. What is the evolution of fishes into amphibians if not a "massive shake up of bodily infrastructure?" What is the evolution of land mammals into whales if not a "massive shake up of bodily infrastructure?" Why does evolution allow for organisms to evolve gills, lungs, hearts, genitalia, legs, arms but it doesn't allow land mammals which according to Dawkins already have a head start by virtue of their 'gill remnants' to reform them?

Note that Dawkins says evolution "does not allow" for this. That's rather definite wouldn't you agree? On p123 he writes, "To say it again, going down the slopes of Mount Improbable is NOT ALLOWED by natural selection". That's also rather definite isn't it? However, one paragraph later on the same page Dawkins says occasionally it does reverse course.
THIS ISN'T SCIENCE. IT IS UNTESTABLE, UNFALSIFIABLE AND IS MERE STORYTELLING. THE REALITY IS THAT EVOLUTION CAN DO WHATEVER THE STORYTELLER REQUIRES IT TO DO AT ANY ONE TIME. A BIT LIKE SUPERMAN

When discussing the plaice, sole, and flounders (pp122,123) he writes,

"No sane creator……..would have conceived on his drawing board the absurd distortion of the head needed to bring both eyes round to one side of the body"

Please note that Dawkins has to engage in some 'poisoning of the well' before he gives his explanation:

"Plaice and sole are all twisted round because of their history; BECAUSE THEIR ANCESTORS LAY DOWN ON ONE SIDE"

Oh yeah, and pigs might fly. This is the evolutionists alternative to design – fish lay down on their side scraping their eyeballs in the sea floor until natural selection said, "I've had enough of this silliness" and decided to shift its eye round to the other side. And we can presume that they all lay down on the same side??????? But note also that it wouldn't just require a moving of the eye but also the structure of the fish.
BUT NEVER FORGET BARON OCHS

"EVOLUTION DOES NOT ALLOW FOR GETTING TEMPORARILY WORSE IN PURSUIT OF A LONG TERM GOAL"

regards, GBG

PS What I've given here is a motivation for others to read Dawkins critically and in doing so to find many more examples of fanciful story telling in his works.

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246. Comment #27391 by BaronOchs on March 24, 2007 at 11:00 am

 avatarGimli you claim Dawkins uses rhetoric. Yes he does use some rhetoric I'll agree with you so far. You claim however that his ideas are so absurd a good dose of rhetorical sugar is needed to help the evolutionary medicine down. Here we disagree.

It is the idea land mammals may have become Whales and Dugongs that you claim is self-evidently absurd.

You ask why didn't they re-evolve gills?
There's no reason why they couldn't have it's just not that probable. The jump from gills to lungs in the first place was no doubt improbable, but not impossible. The fact is it only had to happen once. (Consider the mudskipper or the climbing perch for examples of fish who have managed to re-adapt to land.)

In which case it's not very likely to happen the other way or happen again. It could do though and if you want an example of a difficult trick pulled off more than once take the stick insects that re-evolved wings.

So I maintain the-land-mammals-that-evolved-into-whales could have re-evolved gills, it just wasn't very likely. It was far easier for them to make do with the respiratory system they had and get used to holding their breath.

This isn't ridiculous at all, just think Penguins dwell on land but can stay under water for 22 minutes. If the necessary evolutionary pressure was applied why couldn't they increase by small increments the amount of time they do spend under water until they end up spending no time on land?
at the same time it's not hard to see how any respectable duck could become like to a penguin if under the necessary pressures. Neither is it hard to envisage a crow say becoming ducklike. Thus you can see a nice line of stepping stones from a creature that doesn't dwell in water at all to one that does. And why couldn't some land mammals some time in history do the same and end up becoming whales?

As for the fish laying down on one side the benefits of doing so must have outweighed the adverse effects enough for it to be workable in the first place. From that point on those slightly better adapted, i.e. withs eyes slightly (it only need be ever so slightly)to one side were more likely to survive, wind the clock on and you've got flounders etc as they are today. As for the eyes evolvoing to one side not the other it only needs a trend towards a particular side to emerge in the first place and one thing will lead to another.

I hope that goes some way to answering your points.

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247. Comment #27987 by gimlibengloin on March 27, 2007 at 1:55 pm

Baron Ochs (246)

"So I maintain the-land-mammals-that-evolved-into-whales could have re-evolved gills, it just wasn't very likely. It was far easier for them to make do with the respiratory system they had and get used to holding their breath"

Hi Baron Ochs,

I have to say I appreciate your tone and the way in which you respond to posts you disagree with. It isn't always easy to maintain one's 'cool' on forums such as this but you're doing admirably.

The problem with your statement as far as i can see is that by you're own admission its very liberal. They could have re-evolved gills but it wasn't likely even though the stick insects wings are an example of flight evolving again. But not only with the stick insects. Birds, bats, insects are all examples of convergent evolution where the unlikely has happened several times. Or take the eye. Evolutionists believe that the eye has evolved independantly around FORTY TIMES!!
Therefore why couldn't the whales have re-evolved their gills especially with a head start?. Please note also that it was Dawkins who raised the question rather than me

"As for the fish laying down on one side the benefits of doing so must have outweighed the adverse effects enough for it to be workable in the first place. From that point on those slightly better adapted, i.e. withs eyes slightly (it only need be ever so slightly)to one side were more likely to survive, wind the clock on and you've got flounders etc as they are today. As for the eyes evolvoing to one side not the other it only needs a trend towards a particular side to emerge in the first place and one thing will lead to another."

I agree that the benefits must have outweighed the disadvantages IF evolution is true. But what the good Doctor fails to demonstrate is any rigid criteria. Evolution is just far too malleable. If the fishes that allegedly laid down on one side had some benefit in doing so, what was it? Why didn't they just act in the way that was most beneficial to their structure?

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248. Comment #28008 by BaronOchs on March 27, 2007 at 3:00 pm

 avatarJust a quick response to your last post Gimli. Yes I suppose you have a point I was presenting a rather liberal view of evolution. I can tighten it up a little by pointing out evolution will probably do things the easiest way it can. In other words adaptations that will lead to greater expense in energy or potential survival disadvantages will be negatively selcted for if easier paths are available. Like adapting the lungs instead