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Thursday, March 1, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document The Dawkins Confusion: Naturalism ad absurdum

by Alvin Plantinga

Reposted from Christianity Today:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2007/002/1.21.html
Thanks to Dave Berton for sending this in.

Richard Dawkins is not pleased with God:

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction. Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic-cleanser; a misogynistic homophobic racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal….

Well, no need to finish the quotation; you get the idea. Dawkins seems to have chosen God as his sworn enemy. (Let's hope for Dawkins' sake God doesn't return the compliment.)

The God Delusion is an extended diatribe against religion in general and belief in God in particular; Dawkins and Daniel Dennett (whose recent Breaking the Spell is his contribution to this genre) are the touchdown twins of current academic atheism.1 Dawkins has written his book, he says, partly to encourage timorous atheists to come out of the closet. He and Dennett both appear to think it requires considerable courage to attack religion these days; says Dennett, "I risk a fist to the face or worse. Yet I persist." Apparently atheism has its own heroes of the faith—at any rate its own self-styled heroes. Here it's not easy to take them seriously; religion-bashing in the current Western academy is about as dangerous as endorsing the party's candidate at a Republican rally.

Dawkins is perhaps the world's most popular science writer; he is also an extremely gifted science writer. (For example, his account of bats and their ways in his earlier book The Blind Watchmaker is a brilliant and fascinating tour de force.) The God Delusion, however, contains little science; it is mainly philosophy and theology (perhaps "atheology" would be a better term) and evolutionary psychology, along with a substantial dash of social commentary decrying religion and its allegedly baneful effects. As the above quotation suggests, one shouldn't look to this book for evenhanded and thoughtful commentary. In fact the proportion of insult, ridicule, mockery, spleen, and vitriol is astounding. (Could it be that his mother, while carrying him, was frightened by an Anglican clergyman on the rampage?) If Dawkins ever gets tired of his day job, a promising future awaits him as a writer of political attack ads.

Now despite the fact that this book is mainly philosophy, Dawkins is not a philosopher (he's a biologist). Even taking this into account, however, much of the philosophy he purveys is at best jejune. You might say that some of his forays into philosophy are at best sophomoric, but that would be unfair to sophomores; the fact is (grade inflation aside), many of his arguments would receive a failing grade in a sophomore philosophy class. This, combined with the arrogant, smarter-than-thou tone of the book, can be annoying. I shall put irritation aside, however and do my best to take Dawkins' main argument seriously.

Chapter 3, "Why There Almost Certainly is No God," is the heart of the book. Well, why does Dawkins think there almost certainly isn't any such person as God? It's because, he says, the existence of God is monumentally improbable. How improbable? The astronomer Fred Hoyle famously claimed that the probability of life arising on earth (by purely natural means, without special divine aid) is less than the probability that a flight-worthy Boeing 747 should be assembled by a hurricane roaring through a junkyard. Dawkins appears to think the probability of the existence of God is in that same neighborhood—so small as to be negligible for all practical (and most impractical) purposes. Why does he think so?

Here Dawkins doesn't appeal to the usual anti-theistic arguments—the argument from evil, for example, or the claim that it's impossible that there be a being with the attributes believers ascribe to God.2 So why does he think theism is enormously improbable? The answer: if there were such a person as God, he would have to be enormously complex, and the more complex something is, the less probable it is: "However statistically improbable the entity you seek to explain by invoking a designer, the designer himself has got to be at least as improbable. God is the Ultimate Boeing 747." The basic idea is that anything that knows and can do what God knows and can do would have to be incredibly complex. In particular, anything that can create or design something must be at least as complex as the thing it can design or create. Putting it another way, Dawkins says a designer must contain at least as much information as what it creates or designs, and information is inversely related to probability. Therefore, he thinks, God would have to be monumentally complex, hence astronomically improbable; thus it is almost certain that God does not exist.

But why does Dawkins think God is complex? And why does he think that the more complex something is, the less probable it is? Before looking more closely into his reasoning, I'd like to digress for a moment; this claim of improbability can help us understand something otherwise very perplexing about Dawkins' argument in his earlier and influential book, The Blind Watchmaker. There he argues that the scientific theory of evolution shows that our world has not been designed—by God or anyone else. This thought is trumpeted by the subtitle of the book: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe without Design.

How so? Suppose the evidence of evolution suggests that all living creatures have evolved from some elementary form of life: how does that show that the universe is without design? Well, if the universe has not been designed, then the process of evolution is unguided, unorchestrated, by any intelligent being; it is, as Dawkins suggests, blind. So his claim is that the evidence of evolution reveals that evolution is unplanned, unguided, unorchestrated by any intelligent being.

But how could the evidence of evolution reveal a thing like that? After all, couldn't it be that God has directed and overseen the process of evolution? What makes Dawkins think evolution is unguided? What he does in The Blind Watchmaker, fundamentally, is three things. First, he recounts in vivid and arresting detail some of the fascinating anatomical details of certain living creatures and their incredibly complex and ingenious ways of making a living; this is the sort of thing Dawkins does best. Second, he tries to refute arguments for the conclusion that blind, unguided evolution could not have produced certain of these wonders of the living world—the mammalian eye, for example, or the wing. Third, he makes suggestions as to how these and other organic systems could have developed by unguided evolution.

Suppose he's successful with these three things: how would that show that the universe is without design? How does the main argument go from there? His detailed arguments are all for the conclusion that it is biologically possible that these various organs and systems should have come to be by unguided Darwinian mechanisms (and some of what he says here is of considerable interest). What is truly remarkable, however, is the form of what seems to be the main argument. The premise he argues for is something like this:

1. We know of no irrefutable objections to its being biologically possible that all of life has come to be by way of unguided Darwinian processes;

and Dawkins supports that premise by trying to refute objections to its being biologically possible that life has come to be that way. His conclusion, however, is

2. All of life has come to be by way of unguided Darwinian processes.

It's worth meditating, if only for a moment, on the striking distance, here, between premise and conclusion. The premise tells us, substantially, that there are no irrefutable objections to its being possible that unguided evolution has produced all of the wonders of the living world; the conclusion is that it is true that unguided evolution has indeed produced all of those wonders. The argument form seems to be something like

We know of no irrefutable objections to its being possible that p;Therefore p is true.

Philosophers sometimes propound invalid arguments (I've propounded a few myself); few of those arguments display the truly colossal distance between premise and conclusion sported by this one. I come into the departmental office and announce to the chairman that the dean has just authorized a $50,000 raise for me; naturally he wants to know why I think so. I tell him that we know of no irrefutable objections to its being possible that the dean has done that. My guess is he'd gently suggest that it is high time for me to retire.

Here is where that alleged massive improbability of theism is relevant. If theism is false, then (apart from certain weird suggestions we can safely ignore) evolution is unguided. But it is extremely likely, Dawkins thinks, that theism is false. Hence it is extremely likely that evolution is unguided—in which case to establish it as true, he seems to think, all that is needed is to refute those claims that it is impossible. So perhaps we can think about his Blind Watchmaker argument as follows: he is really employing as an additional if unexpressed premise his idea that the existence of God is enormously unlikely. If so, then the argument doesn't seem quite so magnificently invalid. (It is still invalid, however, even if not quite so magnificently—you can't establish something as a fact by showing that objections to its possibility fail, and adding that it is very probable.)

Now suppose we return to Dawkins' argument for the claim that theism is monumentally improbable. As you recall, the reason Dawkins gives is that God would have to be enormously complex, and hence enormously improbable ("God, or any intelligent, decision-making calculating agent, is complex, which is another way of saying improbable"). What can be said for this argument?

Not much. First, is God complex? According to much classical theology (Thomas Aquinas, for example) God is simple, and simple in a very strong sense, so that in him there is no distinction of thing and property, actuality and potentiality, essence and existence, and the like. Some of the discussions of divine simplicity get pretty complicated, not to say arcane.3 (It isn't only Catholic theology that declares God simple; according to the Belgic Confession, a splendid expression of Reformed Christianity, God is "a single and simple spiritual being.") So first, according to classical theology, God is simple, not complex.4 More remarkable, perhaps, is that according to Dawkins' own definition of complexity, God is not complex. According to his definition (set out in The Blind Watchmaker), something is complex if it has parts that are "arranged in a way that is unlikely to have arisen by chance alone." But of course God is a spirit, not a material object at all, and hence has no parts.5 A fortiori (as philosophers like to say) God doesn't have parts arranged in ways unlikely to have arisen by chance. Therefore, given the definition of complexity Dawkins himself proposes, God is not complex.

So first, it is far from obvious that God is complex. But second, suppose we concede, at least for purposes of argument, that God is complex. Perhaps we think the more a being knows, the more complex it is; God, being omniscient, would then be highly complex. Perhaps so; still, why does Dawkins think it follows that God would be improbable? Given materialism and the idea that the ultimate objects in our universe are the elementary particles of physics, perhaps a being that knew a great deal would be improbable—how could those particles get arranged in such a way as to constitute a being with all that knowledge? Of course we aren't given materialism. Dawkins is arguing that theism is improbable; it would be dialectically deficient in excelsis to argue this by appealing to materialism as a premise. Of course it is unlikely that there is such a person as God if materialism is true; in fact materialism logically entails that there is no such person as God; but it would be obviously question-begging to argue that theism is improbable because materialism is true.

So why think God must be improbable? According to classical theism, God is a necessary being; it is not so much as possible that there should be no such person as God; he exists in all possible worlds. But if God is a necessary being, if he exists in all possible worlds, then the probability that he exists, of course, is 1, and the probability that he does not exist is 0. Far from its being improbable that he exists, his existence is maximally probable. So if Dawkins proposes that God's existence is improbable, he owes us an argument for the conclusion that there is no necessary being with the attributes of God—an argument that doesn't just start from the premise that materialism is true. Neither he nor anyone else has provided even a decent argument along these lines; Dawkins doesn't even seem to be aware that he needs an argument of that sort.

A second example of Dawkinsian-style argument. Recently a number of thinkers have proposed a new version of the argument from design, the so-called "Fine-Tuning Argument." Starting in the late Sixties and early Seventies, astrophysicists and others noted that several of the basic physical constants must fall within very narrow limits if there is to be the development of intelligent life—at any rate in a way anything like the way in which we think it actually happened. For example, if the force of gravity were even slightly stronger, all stars would be blue giants; if even slightly weaker, all would be red dwarfs; in neither case could life have developed. The same goes for the weak and strong nuclear forces; if either had been even slightly different, life, at any rate life of the sort we have, could probably not have developed. Equally interesting in this connection is the so-called flatness problem: the existence of life also seems to depend very delicately upon the rate at which the universe is expanding. Thus Stephen Hawking:

reduction of the rate of expansion by one part in 1012 at the time when the temperature of the Universe was 1010 K would have resulted in the Universe's starting to recollapse when its radius was only 1/3000 of the present value and the temperature was still 10,000 K.6

That would be much too warm for comfort. Hawking concludes that life is possible only because the universe is expanding at just the rate required to avoid recollapse. At an earlier time, he observes, the fine-tuning had to be even more remarkable:

we know that there has to have been a very close balance between the competing effect of explosive expansion and gravitational contraction which, at the very earliest epoch about which we can even pretend to speak (called the Planck time, 10-43 sec. after the big bang), would have corresponded to the incredible degree of accuracy represented by a deviation in their ratio from unity by only one part in 10 to the sixtieth.7

One reaction to these apparent enormous coincidences is to see them as substantiating the theistic claim that the universe has been created by a personal God and as offering the material for a properly restrained theistic argument—hence the fine-tuning argument.8 It's as if there are a large number of dials that have to be tuned to within extremely narrow limits for life to be possible in our universe. It is extremely unlikely that this should happen by chance, but much more likely that this should happen if there is such a person as God.

Now in response to this kind of theistic argument, Dawkins, along with others, proposes that possibly there are very many (perhaps even infinitely many) universes, with very many different distributions of values over the physical constants. Given that there are so many, it is likely that some of them would display values that are life-friendly. So if there are an enormous number of universes displaying different sets of values of the fundamental constants, it's not at all improbable that some of them should be "fine-tuned." We might wonder how likely it is that there are all these other universes, and whether there is any real reason (apart from wanting to blunt the fine-tuning arguments) for supposing there are any such things.9 But concede for the moment that indeed there are many universes and that it is likely that some are fine-tuned and life-friendly. That still leaves Dawkins with the following problem: even if it's likely that some universes should be fine-tuned, it is still improbable that this universe should be fine-tuned. Name our universe alpha: the odds that alpha should be fine-tuned are exceedingly, astronomically low, even if it's likely that some universe or other is fine-tuned.

What is Dawkins' reply? He appeals to "the anthropic principle," the thought that the only sort of universe in which we could be discussing this question is one which is fine-tuned for life:

the anthropic answer, in its most general form, is that we could only be discussing the question in the kind of universe that was capable of producing us. Our existence therefore determines that the fundamental constants of physics had to be in their respective Goldilocks [life-friendly] zones.

Well, of course our universe would have to be fine-tuned, given that we live in it. But how does that so much as begin to explain why it is that alpha is fine-tuned? One can't explain this by pointing out that we are indeed here—anymore than I can "explain" the fact that God decided to create me (instead of passing me over in favor of someone else) by pointing out that if God had not thus decided, I wouldn't be here to raise that question. It still seems striking that these constants should have just the values they do have; it is still monumentally improbable, given chance, that they should have just those values; and it is still much less improbable that they should have those values, if there is a God who wanted a life-friendly universe.

One more example of Dawkinsian thought. In The Blind Watchmaker, he considers the claim that since the self-replicating machinery of life is required for natural selection to work, God must have jumpstarted the whole evolutionary process by specially creating life in the first place—by specially creating the original replicating machinery of DNA and protein that makes natural selection possible. Dawkins retorts as follows:

This is a transparently feeble argument, indeed it is obviously self-defeating. Organized complexity is the thing that we are having difficulty in explaining. Once we are allowed simply to postulate organized complexity, if only the organized complexity of the DNA/protein replicating machine, it is relatively easy to invoke it as a generator of yet more organized complexity… . But of course any God capable of intelligently designing something as complex as the DNA/protein machine must have been at least as complex and organized as that machine itself… . To explain the origin of the DNA/protein machine by invoking a supernatural Designer is to explain precisely nothing, for it leaves unexplained the origin of the Designer.

In Darwin's Dangerous Idea, Daniel Dennett approvingly quotes this passage from Dawkins and declares it an "unrebuttable refutation, as devastating today as when Philo used it to trounce Cleanthes in Hume's Dialogues two centuries earlier." Now here in The God Delusion Dawkins approvingly quotes Dennett approvingly quoting Dawkins, and adds that Dennett (i.e., Dawkins) is entirely correct.

Here there is much to say, but I'll say only a bit of it. First, suppose we land on an alien planet orbiting a distant star and discover machine-like objects that look and work just like tractors; our leader says "there must be intelligent beings on this planet who built those tractors." A first-year philosophy student on our expedition objects: "Hey, hold on a minute! You have explained nothing at all! Any intelligent life that designed those tractors would have to be at least as complex as they are." No doubt we'd tell him that a little learning is a dangerous thing and advise him to take the next rocket ship home and enroll in another philosophy course or two. For of course it is perfectly sensible, in that context, to explain the existence of those tractors in terms of intelligent life, even though (as we can concede for the moment) that intelligent life would have to be at least as complex as the tractors. The point is we aren't trying to give an ultimate explanation of organized complexity, and we aren't trying to explain organized complexity in general; we are only trying to explain one particular manifestation of it (those tractors). And (unless you are trying to give an ultimate explanation of organized complexity) it is perfectly proper to explain one manifestation of organized complexity in terms of another. Similarly, in invoking God as the original creator of life, we aren't trying to explain organized complexity in general, but only a particular kind of it, i.e., terrestrial life. So even if (contrary to fact, as I see it) God himself displays organized complexity, we would be perfectly sensible in explaining the existence of terrestrial life in terms of divine activity.

A second point: Dawkins (and again Dennett echoes him) argues that "the main thing we want to explain" is "organized complexity." He goes on to say that "The one thing that makes evolution such a neat theory is that it explains how organized complexity can arise out of primeval simplicity," and he faults theism for being unable to explain organized complexity. Now mind would be an outstanding example of organized complexity, according to Dawkins, and of course (unlike with organized complexity) it is uncontroversial that God is a being who thinks and knows; so suppose we take Dawkins to be complaining that theism doesn't offer an explanation of mind. It is obvious that theists won't be able to give an ultimate explanation of mind, because, naturally enough, there isn't any explanation of the existence of God. Still, how is that a point against theism? Explanations come to an end; for theism they come to an end in God. Of course the same goes for any other view; on any view explanations come to an end. The materialist or physicalist, for example, doesn't have an explanation for the existence of elementary particles: they just are. So to claim that what we want or what we need is an ultimate explanation of mind is, once more, just to beg the question against theism; the theist neither wants nor needs an ultimate explanation of personhood, or thinking, or mind.

Toward the end of the book, Dawkins endorses a certain limited skepticism. Since we have been cobbled together by (unguided) evolution, it is unlikely, he thinks, that our view of the world is overall accurate; natural selection is interested in adaptive behavior, not in true belief. But Dawkins fails to plumb the real depths of the skeptical implications of the view that we have come to be by way of unguided evolution. We can see this as follows. Like most naturalists, Dawkins is a materialist about human beings: human persons are material objects; they are not immaterial selves or souls or substances joined to a body, and they don't contain any immaterial substance as a part. From this point of view, our beliefs would be dependent on neurophysiology, and (no doubt) a belief would just be a neurological structure of some complex kind. Now the neurophysiology on which our beliefs depend will doubtless be adaptive; but why think for a moment that the beliefs dependent on or caused by that neurophysiology will be mostly true? Why think our cognitive faculties are reliable?

From a theistic point of view, we'd expect that our cognitive faculties would be (for the most part, and given certain qualifications and caveats) reliable. God has created us in his image, and an important part of our image bearing is our resembling him in being able to form true beliefs and achieve knowledge. But from a naturalist point of view the thought that our cognitive faculties are reliable (produce a preponderance of true beliefs) would be at best a naïve hope. The naturalist can be reasonably sure that the neurophysiology underlying belief formation is adaptive, but nothing follows about the truth of the beliefs depending on that neurophysiology. In fact he'd have to hold that it is unlikely, given unguided evolution, that our cognitive faculties are reliable. It's as likely, given unguided evolution, that we live in a sort of dream world as that we actually know something about ourselves and our world.

If this is so, the naturalist has a defeater for the natural assumption that his cognitive faculties are reliable—a reason for rejecting that belief, for no longer holding it. (Example of a defeater: suppose someone once told me that you were born in Michigan and I believed her; but now I ask you, and you tell me you were born in Brazil. That gives me a defeater for my belief that you were born in Michigan.) And if he has a defeater for that belief, he also has a defeater for any belief that is a product of his cognitive faculties. But of course that would be all of his beliefs—including naturalism itself. So the naturalist has a defeater for naturalism; natural- ism, therefore, is self-defeating and cannot be rationally believed.

The real problem here, obviously, is Dawkins' naturalism, his belief that there is no such person as God or anyone like God. That is because naturalism implies that evolution is unguided. So a broader conclusion is that one can't rationally accept both naturalism and evolution; naturalism, therefore, is in conflict with a premier doctrine of contemporary science. People like Dawkins hold that there is a conflict between science and religion because they think there is a conflict between evolution and theism; the truth of the matter, however, is that the conflict is between science and naturalism, not between science and belief in God.

The God Delusion is full of bluster and bombast, but it really doesn't give even the slightest reason for thinking belief in God mistaken, let alone a "delusion."

The naturalism that Dawkins embraces, furthermore, in addition to its intrinsic unloveliness and its dispiriting conclusions about human beings and their place in the universe, is in deep self-referential trouble. There is no reason to believe it; and there is excellent reason to reject it.

Alvin Plantinga is John A. O'Brien Professor of Philosophy at the University of Notre Dame.

1. A third book along these lines, The End of Faith, has recently been written by Sam Harris, and more recently still a sequel, Letter to a Christian Nation, so perhaps we should speak of the touchdown triplets—or, given that Harris is very much the junior partner in this enterprise (he's a grad student) maybe the "Three Bears of Atheism"?

2. Although Dawkins does bring up (p. 54), apparently approvingly, the argument that God can't be both omniscient and omnipotent: if he is omniscient, then he can't change his mind, in which case there is something he can't do, so that he isn't omnipotent(!).

3. See my Does God Have a Nature? Aquinas Lecture 44 (Marquette Univ. Press, 1980).

4. The distinguished Oxford philosopher (Dawkins calls him a theologian) Richard Swinburne has proposed some sophisticated arguments for the claim that God is simple. Dawkins mentions Swinburne's argument, but doesn't deign to come to grips with it; instead he resorts to ridicule (pp. 110-111).

5. What about the Trinity? Just how we are to think of the Trinity is of course not wholly clear; it is clear, however, that it is false that in addition to each of the three persons of the Trinity, there is also another being of which each of those persons is a part.

6. "The Anisotropy of the Universe at Large Times," in M. S. Longair, ed., Confrontation of Cosmological Theories with Observational Data (Springer, 2002), p. 285.

7. John Polkinghorne, Science and Creation: The Search for Understanding (Random House, 1989), p. 22.

8. One of the best versions of the fine-tuning argument is proposed by Robin Collins in "A Scientific Argument for the Existence of God: The Fine-Tuning Design Argument," in Michael J. Murray, ed., Reason for the Hope Within (Eerdmans, 1999), pp. 47-75.

9. See my review of Daniel Dennett's Darwin's Dangerous Idea in Books & Culture, May/June 1996.

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1. Comment #23522 by WoodyUK on March 1, 2007 at 12:56 pm

From about unguided darwinian process downwards it just spirals into pretty spectacular idiocy

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2. Comment #23523 by ScienceBreath on March 1, 2007 at 12:58 pm

I think you incorrectly closed the emphasis tag just after "tour de force".

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3. Comment #23525 by Aaron on March 1, 2007 at 1:05 pm

 avatarDid Alvin Plantinga write all this to just show he read the book and didn't understand the arguments made in it? Maybe the next book Professor Dawkins writes should be a The Coloring Book Version of The God Delusion For Theists.

Other Comments by Aaron

4. Comment #23526 by GBile on March 1, 2007 at 1:06 pm

Could it be that his mother, while carrying him, was frightened by an Anglican clergyman on the rampage?

Alvin Plantinga, "a contemporary American philosopher of frisian descent", this is the kind of arguements you bring into this discussion ??

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5. Comment #23527 by Aerik on March 1, 2007 at 1:07 pm

I really wish these foolish Christian essayists would read and listen to the quote more carefully. The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction. One can not make an enemy out of something for which he has no belief. Alvin Plantinga is clearly one of those Christians who refused to believe people who do not believe in a god actually exists. Either that, or he does not care how he misrepresents. Right there, in the opening paragraph, you can tell there is little substance to be had in this essay. Need I go on?

I might as well. Most of the rest of this essay talks about how things that act like machines must really be machines, "organized complexity" construed to be "specified complexity"... all bunch of pseudo-scientific dribble that, once again, clearly exposed Intelligent Design for old fashioned Evangelical Christian Creationism. This is not so much an attempt to disprove atheism as it is an argument for Intelligent Design that argues evolution leads to atheism.

What a nincompoop.

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6. Comment #23530 by Yorker on March 1, 2007 at 1:23 pm

 avatarIf there really was a God my first prayer would be that He save us from the haverings of "Philosophus Idioticus" of the Plantinga breed. Right off the bat this nonsense was predictable...ahh what's the point, I'm not going waste my time discussing this fool, he's clearly B.E.R. (Beyond Economical Repair)

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7. Comment #23531 by fonex_86 on March 1, 2007 at 1:26 pm

What really ticks me off is the arrogance with which these brain-dead theologians attempt to blast away evolution. You don't like evolution, fine -- but instead of proposing an alternative theory, these deluded fools try to choke their three-word solution down our throats: "God did it".

But then again, the more essays like these come out, the more our purpose is served; I mean, just look at the ad hominems and circular arguments, not to mention phony references and out-of-context quotations.

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8. Comment #23535 by Roll on March 1, 2007 at 1:36 pm

It is almost unbelievable how much energy is wasted attempting to perpetuate this bollox.

Several notable theologians quoted: God is not complex, has no moving parts, is spirit, so is simple. Therefore God does not have to be more complex than that he created. Thanks, just brilliant! Having pointed that out to me, I just know all my education has been nothing but a sham.

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9. Comment #23539 by Bremas on March 1, 2007 at 1:40 pm

Anyone else remember the Bugs Bunny cartoon where Bugs is supposed to be Columbus and he tells the King of Italy(I think) that the world is round. The king pulls out a large wooden mallet, says "the earth is flat", hits Bugs over the head and continues "like your head".

I've had that scene going thru my head for months. Any psychiatrists out there....does that mean anything?

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10. Comment #23540 by mikkala on March 1, 2007 at 1:46 pm

Honestly everyone, I completely lost track. I was distracted by the babbling, double-talking, theology jive. Shortly after I started, I discontinued.

It's like, I'm supposed to learn a new language, so I'll understand this joker. Anyone else?

Thanks RD

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11. Comment #23542 by rcphelan on March 1, 2007 at 1:57 pm

I don't agree that energy is wasted in reading this, it is the emotional roller coaster of delight at the high humor of it, only to come crashing down in despair with the thought of all those poor philospohy students being taught by the Plantingas of the world. He certainly should know a sophomoric argument well enough. It reminds me of the following logic:

God is an atheist (as to his creator).
I am an atheist.
Therefore, I am like God.

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12. Comment #23543 by MarcusA on March 1, 2007 at 1:58 pm

"The naturalism that Dawkins embraces, furthermore, in addition to its intrinsic unloveliness and its dispiriting conclusions about human beings and their place in the universe..."

This quote sums up Alvin Plantinga's argument. He finds Dawkins' ideas emotionally objectionable. Therefore he must reject them. It's the typical theistic nonsense appealing to human emotion. If this was the 15th century Alvin Plantinga would be arguing that the Sun orbits around the Earth.

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13. Comment #23544 by charlesj on March 1, 2007 at 1:59 pm

 avatarFrom the Article:

"Dawkins is not a philosopher (he's a biologist)"

I basically lost interest at that point. Anyone who fails to recognize the fact that in one sense or another we're all philosophers is displaying ignorance of what philosophy is. Calling Dawkin's a non-philosopher is even worse, however, because science is basically applied philosophy!

I kept reading a little further, but stopped when he got the analogy of walking to his boss and telling him that his boss was about to give him a $50,000 raise. The reasoning he put forth was that since there wasn't any evidence, he had no reason not to believe. It's a good point, but poorly implemented, and not exactly applicable in this situation. All the boss had to do was say, 'no, that's not true.' There's your goddamned evidence!

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14. Comment #23545 by mr gollo on March 1, 2007 at 2:03 pm

One of the (many) things I do not understand about these "refutations" agains Dawkins, is the theme that he is saying the god of the bible is not something to be admired, as if for the first time, as if it is something of his own singular personal revelation, and a result of some childhood catastrophy, some event so traumatic as to turn him against all that is "good and holy".

In The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine wrote; "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.

We scarcely meet with anything, a few phrases excepted, but what deserves either our abhorrence or our contempt, till we come to the miscellaneous parts of the Bible."

Can these two similar scathing views exist both from a deist, and an atheist, hundreds of years apart, be some quirk of fate, some shared childhood trauma? Or can it attributed to a critical observation and study over time of the book itself and all it contains? We seem to be seperated in two different camps, argueing over fiction or documentary, with the documentary side claiming the first edition as infallable with DVD extras.

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15. Comment #23546 by Thelonious on March 1, 2007 at 2:03 pm

 avatarThis quote reveals quite a bit: "the theist neither wants nor needs an ultimate explanation of personhood, or thinking, or mind"

Stupefying! Stultifying!

In his favor (nit-picky pet-peeve territory) he actually uses 'question-begging' correctly which almost no one seems to any more.

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16. Comment #23548 by mikkala on March 1, 2007 at 2:07 pm

The title is a joke. Right?
Confusion was certainly, an underlying standard, for the comprehensibility.

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17. Comment #23550 by bitbutter on March 1, 2007 at 2:09 pm

 avatar
According to his definition (set out in The Blind Watchmaker), something is complex if it has parts that are "arranged in a way that is unlikely to have arisen by chance alone." But of course God is a spirit, not a material object at all, and hence has no parts.
Roll's sentiment seconded, i could hardly believe my eyes. this is a classic!

Explanations come to an end; for theism they come to an end in God.

.. and for those of us with less of a horror of uncertainty they come to an end in 'I don't know'.

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18. Comment #23552 by toomanytribbles on March 1, 2007 at 2:12 pm

 avatar
Well, no need to finish the quotation; you get the idea. Dawkins seems to have chosen God as his sworn enemy. (Let's hope for Dawkins' sake God doesn't return the compliment.)

you can't choose as an enemy someone who does not exist. he obviously cannot grasp the concept.

this poor man is living in fear and it's not helping his writing. what a boring essay. the babbling lost me as well.

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19. Comment #23554 by stevencarrwork on March 1, 2007 at 2:14 pm

Plantinga's arguments are pretty bad.

A Christian Evangelical Professor, Professor Greg Welty sent me an email once, confirming that Plantinga's defense to atheistic arguments could also be used to show that it is logically consistent to believe that people really only have one leg, even though our memory and senses tell us that almost everybody has two legs.

Plantinga comes up with some lovely stuff in his essay.

He says mind is organised complexity, and so the mind of God doesn't need explaining.

Anybody care to come up with a raft of theologians saying Dawkins is wrong because God is simple to contrast with Plantinga saying Dawkins is wrong because God is complex?

Plantinga asks 'Why think our cognitive faculties are reliable?'

Answer. They aren't always reliable.

Plantinga complains that if evolution is true, our sense would not be reliable.

I guess the answer to this is literally staring him in the face.

Plantinga wears glasses, because his eyes have been designed by natural selection and are not always reliable.

You've got to love people who say that only a God could have designed such a complex thing as a human body, and then have to put on their reading glasses to read out the works telling them how God designed us.

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20. Comment #23555 by MIND_REBEL on March 1, 2007 at 2:14 pm

 avatarWhat crap. That guy lacks even a basic sense of logic and reason. He owned himself, so i won't even bother.

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21. Comment #23556 by bitbutter on March 1, 2007 at 2:20 pm

 avatar
Well, of course our universe would have to be fine-tuned, given that we live in it. But how does that so much as begin to explain why it is that [our universe] is fine-tuned?

[slaps forehead] Although he's certainly aware of it, this passage demonstrates a failure to come to grips with the anthropic principle; which is a shame because it's a beauty.

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22. Comment #23557 by stevencarrwork on March 1, 2007 at 2:24 pm

Plantinga writes 'If this is so, the naturalist has a defeater for the natural assumption that his cognitive faculties are reliable - a reason for rejecting that belief, for no longer holding it.'

Plantinga just blew my irony-meter to pieces!

Plantinga himself, of course, maintains that it is possible that there are supernatural beings who are highly motivated to attack our reasoning and senses, and are perfectly capable of doing so.

Somebody who claims that it is possible that there are demons has no right whatever to believe anything that he himself says, because for all Plantinga knows, he might be possessed by a demon.

If naturalism is self-defeating (which it isn't) , supernaturalism is self-defeating in spades as even the Bible claims God deceives people (2 Thessalonians 2:11)

Natural selection was not the tool by which we developed a belief in natural selection, so Plantinga's argument makes as much sense as claiming that we should not believe we can play golf, because natural selection has not made us totally reliable golf-players.

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23. Comment #23558 by Seti on March 1, 2007 at 2:30 pm

 avatarSorry, once you've read a few of these they get kinda boring. Couldn't be *rsed to finish it. Was it any good?

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24. Comment #23559 by burkbraun on March 1, 2007 at 2:32 pm

"But from a naturalist point of view the thought that our cognitive faculties are reliable (produce a preponderance of true beliefs) would be at best a naïve hope. The naturalist can be reasonably sure that the neurophysiology underlying belief formation is adaptive, but nothing follows about the truth of the beliefs depending on that neurophysiology."

This quote, from late in the piece, is an interesting one to refute. This was what the Enlightenment was all about, after all- discovering methods of perceiving and understanding the empirical world that rise above the limitations of our immediate senses. Whether it is methods of closely calibrating instruments, or of developing whole new senses of perception, or of sceptically considering as many relevant hypotheses as possible, the enlightenment was founded on replacing freely imaginative conceptions of our world with empirically-based ones.

Our senses are evidently adapted to our immediate outer world, but not to our inner world. Introspection, which is one of the main supports of religion, is horrible at gathering knowledge of how our minds work- to whit, we still do not really know how our minds work, and all the meditation in the world will not tell us. Incidentally, the counter-hypothesis that our perceptions are true apriori (via some attenuated image of god) has been demolished by modern neuroscience if not before, so if that were an argument that this author is trying to slip in, it is also feckless.

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25. Comment #23561 by thegashman on March 1, 2007 at 2:38 pm

 avatarall that effort, and as well as failing to unravel Dawkins' arguments, he's still unable to produce any evidence of a God...

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26. Comment #23563 by Quine on March 1, 2007 at 2:39 pm

 avatarOver time, we see the continuing pattern of religious apologists retrenching as if each advance of knowledge doesn't really render their position simply bunk. The world was found not to be flat. The sun was found to not actually move in the sky. The planets were not held in orbit by the "pushing" of angels. Species were found to have evolved over time. The earth was found to be billions of years old, not created in 6 days. The nature of life was found to be held in the genetic structure of DNA. In each case, the religious believers have had to back up and cook up some way their deity could have made it look this way.

The essay above shows the next trench they are trying to hold. This is the improbability of life and fine tuning argument. As with all the other trenches overrun in the past, they are going to loose this one as well. The reason they have held on is the basic difficulty of the human mind to work with vast size, distance and time. One of the lingering difficulties of all religions is the question of why their deity made such a large universe, when the whole morality play of their scripture requires only this tiny dot of a planet (in fact only a small part of the landmass on this tiny dot)?

The human mind is also not intrinsically equipped to ponder extreme probabilities. Extreme populations interact with extremely small probabilities, such as the situation in which people try to guess the lottery numbers. After a time, someone (but not you) does guess the numbers. If you use the religious argument dismissing the anthropic principle, you have to conclude that each lottery winner was given the numbers because the chance of hitting by "random" is too "fined tuned." You won't hit the lottery, but someone will, and from the view of that someone, it's a miracle.

Being has the feeling of a miracle. It is an unimaginably vanishing probability that each of us exists at all, and in this here and now, versus some other. It is winning the lottery. We do not get a feeling for the improbability of our universe because we cannot see all the others. This is equivalent to the time when people did not see that the earth was round, and small in the cosmos. The process of carbon chemistry based life happens here because it can happen here, but only after some number of suns have gone through their whole "life" cycles to give us the carbon to start. Getting enough molecules of carbon chemistry together to start replication, again, is winning the lottery. There is just no way to get the human mind around a couple of billion years of molecules bouncing off each other trying to guess the lottery numbers.

I am, actually, encouraged to see the religious apologists dig in at this argument. They cannot help that we keep seeing farther and farther into the cosmos, and back in time. The vastness itself answers the question.

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27. Comment #23567 by mikkala on March 1, 2007 at 2:41 pm

When did Nature become a bad thing, in which to place our belief? Theology is remarkably fantastical isn't it? It makes naturalism sound so bush league.

It would be nice, if it were practical to place our belief in fantasy. However this is supremely impractical. Thus we must recognize nature for what it is.

And theology, for what it is. Bush League.

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28. Comment #23568 by steve99 on March 1, 2007 at 2:43 pm

 avatarMy goodness. That was positively painful to read. I recently read "How Mumbo-Jumbo Conquered the World" by Francis Wheen, which contains a hilarious discussion of deconstructionism. I was reminded of this when I read above:

"According to classical theism, God is a necessary being; it is not so much as possible that there should be no such person as God; he exists in all possible worlds. But if God is a necessary being, if he exists in all possible worlds, then the probability that he exists, of course, is 1, and the probability that he does not exist is 0. Far from its being improbable that he exists, his existence is maximally probable."

This is nothing more than word-play, which the author, I am sure, thinks is clever. I can, of course, simply define God as an unecessary being, and with a simple flip of 1's and 0's, prove he does not exist (perhaps I should label this 'classical atheism' to make it seem more authoratative).

And, I am astonished that someone who is supposed to be a philosopher does not understand the principle of parsimony. If evolution can be understood assuming it is blind, then it is excessive to say the least to assume a designer when one is not needed.

The fine-tuning argument was not one of his best either. After all, the universe isn't quite as good as it might have been. If it were me, I would have made stars live longer (I mean, ours is middle aged already!) and cut back on those pesky asteroids that cause so much trouble every now and then.

Strangest of all, I felt, was attempts to argue that God need not be complex. A strange term for an entity that would understand how to guide the evolution of millions of species.

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29. Comment #23569 by Jeebus on March 1, 2007 at 2:44 pm

Terrible arguments to a man. For shame Alvin Plantinga, for shame...

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30. Comment #23570 by the great teapot on March 1, 2007 at 2:45 pm

I have not read the above article fully as I am getting bored with reading the same old arguments, but one thing I do notice is that atheists are increasingly being attacked for being philisophical light weights for trusting common sense over deep philosophical logic.
The bolt hole that religion seems to be cowering in is - nothing can be proven, admitting that religion is actually not verifiable logically, but nothing else can be proven either therefore any single claim to "truth" is as good as any other (pink unicorn included.)
How many religious people do they believe actually think like that. Most think God is a thinking being in the sky. If Moses came down from the mountain and said "hey, I've got these rules but the best we can say for them is the're as equally as likely or unlikely to be as true as anything else so it really is down to personal interpretation" do you think we would have a judeo-christian god still today

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31. Comment #23571 by tk on March 1, 2007 at 2:47 pm

 avatarI would like to ask Prof Plantinga, or whomever could possibly offer a reply, why does he refer to God using `He'? Is he sure that God is male? I once asked a Muslim about this and he started cursing me. When I pointed out to him that, by referring to Allah as `He', he implicitly implied that Allah has male genitals, he told me that I was a sinner. When I pointed out to him that I only concluded this because he told me that Allah was a man, he started shouting and cursing. I would very much like to ask Prof Plantinga the same question. What could he reply? Perhaps that we do so as a custom? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to refer to God neutrally? Well, `It' could be more appropriate but perhaps not so acceptable by theists--understandably so. Therefore why don't they change the language in order to refer to God by a pronoun different from He/She/It?

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32. Comment #23572 by MarcusA on March 1, 2007 at 2:49 pm

God has created us in his image, and an important part of our image bearing is our resembling him in being able to form true beliefs and achieve knowledge.


If this statement is true then God must be as complex as we are. And therefore his existence is improbable.

Why is it that theists always argue against themselves?

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33. Comment #23574 by Bremas on March 1, 2007 at 3:03 pm

Hey tk post 31,

Next time you do that, could you get it on tape and send it to me.

Thank-you in advance.

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34. Comment #23575 by Bob Johnson on March 1, 2007 at 3:05 pm

To #23544 indeed my reading of Dr. Dawkin's vita shows a "Doctor of Philosophy" earned over 40 years ago.

And if as the author suggests a "smarter-than-thou tone," I must ask why would I wish to read from people dumber than me? (Oops, I just did!)

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35. Comment #23577 by the great teapot on March 1, 2007 at 3:06 pm

surely God does not achieve knowledge-
that would imply god was not always all knowing.

By the way tk - regarding gods genitals, if I am created in Gods image - he is hung like a hamster.
I hope your creator was more more gifted than mine.

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36. Comment #23578 by bitbutter on March 1, 2007 at 3:10 pm

 avatar
Extreme populations interact with extremely small probabilities, such as the situation in which people try to guess the lottery numbers. After a time, someone (but not you) does guess the numbers. If you use the religious argument dismissing the anthropic principle, you have to conclude that each lottery winner was given the numbers because the chance of hitting by "random" is too "fined tuned." You won't hit the lottery, but someone will, and from the view of that someone, it's a miracle.
thanks quine: this is a useful 'down to earth' illustration of the mistake. I'll be using this lottery analogy.

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37. Comment #23579 by fonex_86 on March 1, 2007 at 3:24 pm

Hmm, I can imagine an ad on this genital thing already...

Extend your p*n*s! Recent faith-based negotiations has struck a deal with Yours Truly to share the secret of His (Omni-)Potency with us mere mortals! Other benefits include [edited out due to tasteless comment]! All this for the unbelieveable price of... your soul! YES, all you need is to BELIEVE!!!

So call 1-000-I-BELIEVE today, to get your FREE* OmniPotence starter pack!
(Long-distance/International Charges may apply)

*S&H and Unspecified charges (like donations to Benny Hinn Ministries) may apply

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38. Comment #23580 by Roll on March 1, 2007 at 3:33 pm

Which god had the biggest penis? I need to know before I decide the correct religion for me...

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39. Comment #23582 by Janus on March 1, 2007 at 3:36 pm

 avatarHere's a fairly good discussion of Plantinga's points at the Internet Infidels discussion boards:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=198169

Other Comments by Janus

40. Comment #23583 by Quine on March 1, 2007 at 3:46 pm

 avatarOn probability analogies, it is also useful to consider a show on which they gather the top 100 lottery winners to talk about their experiences. The probability that 100 people in the same room have all guessed the numbers is truly small. So small it just could not have happened. This is analogous to the natural selection of mutations in evolution. It works with those who have already won the lottery, so it seems so improbable. Each mutation does not happen to those who did not live to get to the point where it could happen. Believers bemoan that we non believers do not get the nectar of devotion; I bemoan that they don't learn enough about real nature to get the awesome grandeur of the cosmos.

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41. Comment #23585 by Corylus on March 1, 2007 at 3:47 pm

 avatarScientists tend to snicker at philosophers, and vice versa.

Speaking as someone more au fait with philosophy than science (i.e. by Plantinga's exacting standards someone who has studied it at higher than sophomore level) I have a tendency to defend philosophers from such attack.

The problem I say is that scientists and philosophers often speak at cross-purposes: the confusion lies is in the language that they use, not the issues they speak about. The very fact that both disciplines question everything gives them so much in common, and gives them so much to learn from each other.

Well, I'm sorry, I not going to wade in on Plantinga's side here. He couches one of his arguments in a classic 'logical' format. Be warned, non-philosophers. When philosophers do this they are either about to set out an argument clearly and beautifully; or they are about to talk bollocks. Two guesses which I think this is (OK, for you relativists out there, I'll give you three!)

" 1. We know of no irrefutable objections to its being biologically possible that all of life has come to be by way of unguided Darwinian processes;

and Dawkins supports that premise by trying to refute objections to its being biologically possible that life has come to be that way. His conclusion, however, is

2. All of life has come to be by way of unguided Darwinian processes.

It's worth meditating, if only for a moment, on the striking distance, here, between premise and conclusion. The premise tells us, substantially, that there are no irrefutable objections to its being possible that unguided evolution has produced all of the wonders of the living world; the conclusion is that it is true that unguided evolution has indeed produced all of those wonders. The argument form seems to be something like

We know of no irrefutable objections to its being possible that p; Therefore p is true."

Right, what don't I like about this:

1) This man's grammar is absolutely abysmal: it took me four readings to get to grips with his argument: the point of appealing to logic is that you state your premises (or the premises that you are attacking) clearly.
2) This brings me to the next problem, it is difficult to assess what exactly Plantinga means by "p" - it is considered good manners in logic lay out what each letter you use is actually a short form for. (I will presume though that he means the viewpoint that God does not exist)
3) This person has either, not understood Dawkins' argument, or is wilfully misconstruing it. The title of the Chapter in question is "Why there is almost certainly is no god". What part of this statement implies "p is true??" The word "almost" isn't generally used in logic – and for bl**dy good reason. (I say "generally" as I have never heard it used, and cannot discount the possibility that it might have been: one must be careful not to reach unjustified conclusions, after all).
4) This theological appeal to logic reminds me of the postmodernists who use equations to bolster their arguments, the gullible read them and say "wow, I cannot understand this equation the author must be really smart and really right" not considering the possibility that:

a) the author does not understand the equation either, or
b) the equation has absolutely no bearing on the question at hand.

BTW: I strongly suspect that this is what is happening with Plantinga's glowing endorsement of Hawking: I will leave that to the physicists on this board to address (I, unlike Plantinga, know when I am out of my league: I feel this keenly reading some of the scientists posting here).

The main point for this long post - apologies to anyone I have bored - is to make the point that this article's "philosophy" is not even 'sophomore' level. Incidentally, what hideous intellectual snobbery to assess thinkers by how many years of formal study into a subject they have completed: surely either they are right or they are not. N.B. It is telling that Plantinga attacks Dawkins' philosophical credentials but ignores Dennett's. If Dawkins' philosophy is so bad, how is that he reaches the same conclusions as Dennett? Is Dennett's philosophy 'sophomore' as well?

Scientists, let loose the dogs of war against this idiot: I for one will not stand in your way.

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42. Comment #23587 by Caesar Best on March 1, 2007 at 3:49 pm

These people are starting to wear me out, they choose religion over science, but still they try to use science (and wrongly so) to try and prove their point. Personally I respect the hardcore, stubborn bible thumpers more than that type of nutjob. Am I the only one that got a headache from reading his fucking bullshit?

Other Comments by Caesar Best

43. Comment #23589 by Janus on March 1, 2007 at 3:54 pm

 avatarWell, the thread I've posted above is pretty long, so here's the heart of my (small) contribution. I don't feel comfortable copy/pasting the posts of other people.




(about Plantinga's assertion that God is simple because theologians define Him as such):

Theologians also say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are "one, but distinct". Does that mean we should simply accept this without argument and move on?

Yes, it's their belief, so we have to accept what they tell us about their God, but only as long as their description remains logical, and consistent with what we know about the universe.

A truly simple entity would be perfectly homogenous, and would do nothing except exist. A fundamental particle such as an electron is probably a good example. Not only is it not made of parts, there is nothing going on inside the electron. A single electron, isolated from everything else, won't do anything. It needs other particles (and space bigger than itself) to interact with in order to have a function.

A mind can't logically be simple in that sense, because one of the defining characteristics of "mind" is that it can keep thinking even without stimuli, even in complete isolation. A mind, by definition, does more than exist.
Also, a mind is a process, which means that at the very least it or parts of it must be able to shift from one state to another, and it must include data storage of some kind (what we call memory); both of these things necessitate complexity.

The notion that a mind can be simple dates back to a time when no one had any idea how a mind works and what a mind is. That some people haven't caught up in the 21st century is no excuse to still think of a mind as some sort of fuzzy ghost-like thing.


(about Plantinga's assertion that God can't be said to be _improbable_):

I agree that this part of Dawkins' argument is flawed, so I won't defend it. God can't be said to be improbable in the same sense that getting a total of 18 when throwing three dice is improbable. This is definitely The God Delusion's greatest weakness.


(about Plantinga's arguments against the multiverse hypothesis):

First: I don't see why it's so "striking" that the universal constants have the values they have, if there is a multiverses. The hypothesis states that there are lots of universes, most not favorable to life, some favorable, and by the anthropic principle we have to be one of the favorable universes, since we're here talking about it. What's the problem? Unlike the God hypothesis, the multiverse hypothesis only necessitates the positing of things similar to a thing that we know is possible because we know it exists: a universe. And also, if we accept that complex things require explanations, the multiverse hypothesis puts an end to the infinite regress of "This complex thing (the universe) must have been created by a complex intelligence (God), but then this complex intelligence must have been created by another complex intelligence, etc." As far as we know, a universe at its "beginning" is a relatively simple thing (perhaps fundamentally simple). Once the fine-tuning has been explained, the regress is ended.

Second, I find it hilarious that Plantinga can say something like, "It still seems striking that these constants should have just the values they do have; it is still monumentally improbable, given chance, that they should have just those values".

Monumentally improbable? And here I thought that something can only be said to be improbable if the arrangement of particles or parts it's made of is extremely unlikely? What "parts" are the so-called laws that rule universe made of, pray tell? If chance and improbability don't apply to God, what makes you think they apply to the universe as a whole (as opposed to what's in it)?

If you believe that complex entities like God can "just exist", then God is superfluous. The universe can just as easily "just exist", and we don't need to explain its so-called fine-tuning.


(summary of my position):

A mind is complex by definition, therefore explaining complexity by saying it was designed by a complex intelligence isn't an explanation at all, and if a mind can "just exist", than so can the universe, and we don't need God (or the multiverse) to explain its fine-tuning.

Either God doesn't exist, or he exists and he's superfluous.


(my counter-argument to a poster's argument that it's not possible to speculate about the nature of God's mind):
Posted by Philo_66:
Let me see, God does not exist, but if he did he'd have to be really really complex. Huh? If that ain't just more theology, I don't know what theology is. Such a belief certainly isn't based on empirical evidence. Show me the God that is so complex.

I'm not talking about God, I'm talking about minds. It's theists who define God as an intelligent entity, not me. I'm just taking the definition as it's given to me.

Posted by philo_66:
To refute by saying "show me the simple God then" is just confirming the emptiness of your own argument. If it can't be believed because it can't be shown, then there's no reason to believe the "complex God" theory either.

Actually, it's "show me a simple mind, then". Or even, "describe to me how a simple mind would work, conceptually". Or even, "define the word 'mind' in such a way that it doesn't imply complexity".






So, basically, I agree that Dawkins is wrong about God's improbability, but the fact remains that God is a much worse explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe than the multiverse. Even if God exists, he's not needed to explain anything. As Dawkins himself has said, "At the very least, I have turned the theistic fine-turning argument on its head". So he has.

Other Comments by Janus

44. Comment #23591 by Stewart on March 1, 2007 at 4:02 pm

I confess defeat. I couldn't finish it. Life is too short to waste on the ramblings of Alvin Plantinga. Got as far as his attack on unguided Darwinian evolution. There's plenty of evidence for evolution and none that it's guided, nor that there is a god, so how dare he pretend the only argument for evolution is "We know of no irrefutable objections to its being possible?" And where precisely does he get his knowledge of possibly non-complex spiritual beings from?

There are poor arguments and weak arguments and unconvincing arguments and sometimes, no matter how generous one wants to be, one has to say straight out that there is also unadulterated crap and its author, this time around, is Alvin Plantinga.

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45. Comment #23593 by Toivo on March 1, 2007 at 4:06 pm

Perhaps relevant to Plantinga's arguments and theologians in general, there's a way of doing mental gymnastics by "putting the cart before the horse".

E.g. Talking about natural selection and evolution. If you first assume absolutely true/believe fully without any doubt/have as an absolute starting point that humans have developed in the course of evolution by natural selection and that such process had no particular reason or tendency to produce the ability to form reliable/accurate/likely beliefs, then you can't help but realise that most if not all of the things you think you know are not knowledge at all but some "adaptation" that you have no reason to think had some connection to reality. I.e. you start with scientific results and use those to evaluate how good your ability to form good/accurate/reliable beliefs is. But how do you know those scientific results? They are a part of your good/accurate/reliable beliefs. In other words, you are shooting yourself in the foot by using the "knowledge-derivation mechanism" to undermine the "knowledge-derivation mechanism". It's like logically proving logic doesn't work, or proving scientifically that science doesn't work.

The "right" way to think about these things is of course put "the horse before the cart", i.e. start with the "knowledge-derivation mechanism", which is kind of the definition of knowledge, so it doesn't have properties like true/false or doubt, and then go on to scientific results.

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46. Comment #23597 by Homo economicus on March 1, 2007 at 4:19 pm

 avatarWell having read it the argument seems to go on name calling and arguments that just make no point whatsoever. As irritating reading as when you cut up chillies then make love without first washing your hands.

Watch a child dying of leukaemia and then tell me that we should be pleased with God.

I do not see any evidence that there is a super being that consciously created the universe. If God does exist one worthy of worship? With Fry and Hitchins on that one.

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47. Comment #23600 by perkyjay on March 1, 2007 at 4:38 pm

I would characterise it, quite simply, as philosophical gobbledygook. Notre Dame has gone down several notches in my estimation since reading this.

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48. Comment #23601 by Toivo on March 1, 2007 at 4:49 pm

And what's this thing with fine-tuning? Ok, so we've discovered various constants and so on that if they were a little different, then life/human life/ Richard Dawkins/ this webpage wouldn't exist. Well, what kind of values did we expect for fundamental constants? We could have "worked backwards" and given something like probability distributions or educated estimates as to the values of those constants, given what we know about the universe, without actually going out there and measuring/directly determining the constants. So, once measured, the values of the constants wouldn't surprise us at all (since e.g. human life exists, we can already guess some range where some constants must lie). In this way, there's no improbable accidents or unexplainable mysteries, and no fine-tuning.

Also, fine-tuning seems to be obsessed with human life or life at all. Why? We could as well say that since the website http://richarddawkins.net exists, then some property of atoms and matter had to be "just right" and some fundamental constants had to be "just right" to bring about http://richarddawkins.net. Indeed, this proves irrefutably that the universe was designed for http://richarddawkins.net. Ergo, there exists an Internet God that really loves and cares about this site and had a great urge to create a universe with this site in it. Similarly, the universe is also designed for Mount Everest, a certain crater on the Moon, a certain gas cloud floating in space, comets, the red spot on Jupiter, and the crunching sound cereals make when eaten, each with its own god.

Alternatively, we don't know any general law or explanation for the fundamental constants (yet), and it's completely fallacious (argument from ignorance) to infer any sort of agency, purpose, intent etc. of the universe because of this, no matter how comforting that might be.

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49. Comment #23602 by Graham on March 1, 2007 at 4:55 pm

 avatarI had a look to see what kind of a magazine Christianity Today magazine is. I see it is the publication started by Billy Graham. I noticed an interesting difference in their beliefs compared to many evangelicals.

For example employees of Trinity Western University here in BC are required to sign a statement saying:

"In the bodily resurrection of the dead; of the believer to everlasting blessedness and joy with the Lord, of the unbeliever to judgment and everlasting conscious punishment."

Whereas Christianity Today say they believe:

"the bodies of the dead shall be raised. The righteous shall enter into full possession of eternal bliss in the presence of God, and the wicked shall be condemned to eternal death."

Interesting that the "wicked" now get only death, not "conscious punishment" and no mention of "non-believers". I wonder if one can be a "rightous" sceptic :)

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50. Comment #23603 by Graham on March 1, 2007 at 5:09 pm

 avatarThe starting premise of "TWO DOZEN (OR SO) THEISTIC ARGUMENTS" Lecture Notes by Alvin Plantinga:

"...theistic belief does not (in general) need argument either for deontological justification, or for positive epistemic status, (or for Foley rationality or Alstonian justification)); belief in God is properly basic."

http://www.homestead.com/philofreligion/files/Theisticarguments.html

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