1. Petition YouTube for Pat Condell

Comment #259215 by GoatBoy36 on October 3, 2008 at 4:56 am

"What a silly comment." Steve Zara.

It was, of course, your very own words, lol .. (comment #258886)

"Shariah courts encourage and help maintain cultural difference. That is the point." Steve Zara, comment #258791

Now that is a silly statement. Allowing a legal system based on Islamic law to flourish within a non-Muslim country is a slippery slope. That is the point. (You believe in slippery slope arguments, don't you? Well there's one.)

"Actually, this is the last place where one would expect to find support for sharia in any form; be it direct, indirect, diluted or even considered as a serious possibility." decius

Well you'd think that, until you actually came on to this site and read some of the utter drivel that passes for "clear thinking".

gb.

2. Petition YouTube for Pat Condell

Comment #258916 by GoatBoy36 on October 2, 2008 at 1:52 pm

nalfashnee,

Exactly. Steve apparently thinks that standing up to Sharia is a slippery slope, when the opposite is true: letting it get a foothold in a non-Muslim country most definitely is.

gb.

3. Petition YouTube for Pat Condell

Comment #258914 by GoatBoy36 on October 2, 2008 at 1:49 pm

Steve,

The point I was trying to make was that Shariah is not based on reason, it is a religious system. I don't think the environment is one where people would feel free to question matters, because parts of Shariah are supposed to be divinely ordained and timeless. It is not a situation about fairness or fact-finding.

gb.

4. Petition YouTube for Pat Condell

Comment #258910 by GoatBoy36 on October 2, 2008 at 1:45 pm

A video for Pat Condell.

5. Petition YouTube for Pat Condell

Comment #258890 by GoatBoy36 on October 2, 2008 at 1:15 pm

"If there are certain principles within Shariah that people consider are beneficial, then they should campaign for those principles to be incorporated into general British law, so they apply, and are available, for everyone." (Steve Zara, comment #258486)


Now that, Steve, is a slippery slope.

6. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257970 by GoatBoy36 on October 1, 2008 at 9:52 am

Steve,

yes, yes, I know all about the old racist/facist angle, I've heard it all before.

It's obvious that you have no intention whatsoever of addressing the points put to you, despite all your fine talk about Western values, one of the most important of those being freedom of speech, something which you obviously do not understand at all.

Read "On Liberty" then get back to me.

It's pathetic, it really is .. what a shower of cowards and hypocrites. You all ought to take a good look at yourselves in the mirror. You especially, "Steve Zara."

But I know fine well that you don't have the guts to do that.

7. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257885 by GoatBoy36 on October 1, 2008 at 8:13 am

As for the analogy. You said that the accusation of guilt by association was like Muslims guilt by associating that those that made the accusation decried. This suggests all Muslims most happily and freely associate with terrorists, and that said individuals have no problem with that. This is false, I think in both cases. That makes the analogy false. Understand now? Mitchell

Meaningless jibber-jabber. You obviously struggle with writing (just read that paragraph again, for goodness sake!), and since you have misunderstood the very simple point I made originally, it appears you have difficulty reading too. I assume English is not your first language. I can't be bothered explaining A, B, C to someone who doesn't have a decent grasp of English. This is a debate board, not a TESOL programme.

8. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257622 by GoatBoy36 on September 30, 2008 at 7:36 pm

Mitchell

Unless you are saying that all muslims have ties to such people, then the analogy is false (your analogy, so don't come back by pointing out that the people on that site are not terrorists. I didn't make the analogy).


What the hell are you talking about, I have to ask?

Jesus, this site is hopeless. It really is. Lots of ego stroking going on, lots of it. People who like the sound of their own voice. Quite educated people too. But education is no guarantee of intellectual courage. You'd think people who supported Richard Dawkins would actually understand what he's about. Maybe they do, but just don't have the intellectual steel to be consistent in their thinking. That's probably the case, I suppose. I'll be generous here ..

9. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257618 by GoatBoy36 on September 30, 2008 at 7:22 pm

Mitchell,

That's a very poor argument. In fact I don't think it's an argument at all.

Frankus 1122,

One of my old philosophy lecturers used to tell us to look for the unspoken premise in anyone's argument. Quite often it proved important (without it the argument was not valid) and quite often it was false!

One of the fundamental premises in Fanusi's many arguments, it has been asserted, is that people who are not themselves vocal supporters of Islamic terrorism, and those who do not practice hate speech, should be treated in the same way as those who do. Guilt by association!

That premise in Fanusi's arguments has been criticised time and time again. Other things which Fanusi said may have been criticised. The length of his hair may have been criticised. The football team he supports may have been criticised. All of this is equally irrelevant to the argument I put forward.

Look at it this way. If people had criticised the conclusion of any of Fanusi's arguments, simply on the basis perhaps that it was not supported by its premises, that would be fine and dandy. (The premises are true, but it does not follow that your conclusion is also true.)

But whenever that premise used in his arguments was declared false, that was a statement of belief by those who did so.

Fanusi's arguments were, apparently, no good because that premise is, so we have been told, false.

To turn around and build one's own argument now using that same premise is, I have argued, not logical. If one believes it to be false, then it won't work in any other argument, even one of your own that you desperately want to work. I might say, especially not in one of your own that you especially want to work. But there it is. Double standards, as I said.

I did send in a post many moons ago to Steve about John Stuart Mill's efforts to draw a line with regards Freedom of Speech. I think if you do a google for Mill and the phrase "corn dealers" you should be able to find that.

gb.

10. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257597 by GoatBoy36 on September 30, 2008 at 6:16 pm

And no one seems to want to acknowledge this, so I'll just post it again.


I agree with al rawandi: all this whooping and a-hollering is just white noise. There is no logically relevant point to be made here.

"While the circumstances of the opponent may not be the issue in a serious argument, calling attention to them may be psychologically effective in winning assent, or in persuading others. But however persuasive it may prove, arguments of this kind are essentially fallacious.

Circumstantial ad hominem arguments are sometimes used to suggest that the opponents' conclusion should be rejected because their judgement is warped, dictated by their special situation rather than by reasoning or evidence. But an argument that is favourable to some group deserves discussion on its merits; it is fallacious to attack it simply on the ground that it is presented by a member of that group and is therefore self-serving. The arguments in favor of a protective tariff (for example) may be bad, but they are not bad because they are presented by a manufacturer who benefits from such tariffs.

One argument of this kind, called "poisoning the well," is particularly perverse. The incident that gave rise to the name illustrates the argument forecfully. The British novelist and clergyman Charles Kinglsey, attacking the famous Catholic intellectual John Henry Cardinal Newman, argued thus: Cardinal Newman's claims were not to be trusted because, as a Roman Catholic priest (Kingsley alleged), Newman's first loyalty was not to the truth. Newman countered that this ad hominem attack made it impossible for him and indeed for all Catholics to advance their arguments, since anything that they might say to defend themselves would then be undermined by others' alleging that, after all, truth was not their first concern. Kingsley, said Cardinal Newman, had poisoned the well of discourse." (Copi & Cohen, Introduction to Logic (11th Ed.), Prentice Hall, pp. 144-145.)

And there it is.

11. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257594 by GoatBoy36 on September 30, 2008 at 6:08 pm

Can I just add here that it is abolutely, breathtakingly HILARIOUS that all these rational free thinkers first criticise the hell out of someone (Fanusi) for advancing an argument that according to them, relies on guilt by association (How many times has Fanusi been told in no uncertain terms by members of this website that not all Muslims can be held responsible for the words uttered by a few?) ..

THEN they go on to do that very thing themselves! Fanusi is a member of a group where OTHERS have said nasty things, and suddenly it is A-OK to practice guilt by association. According to them, Fanusi's as bad as those other people, who they don't approve of ..

Wonderful, just wonderful, lol.. talk about double standards!

12. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257586 by GoatBoy36 on September 30, 2008 at 5:47 pm

Smith,

I posted something earlier on about Steve's views on immigration. He ignored what was said, and when I posted and said that I'd appreciate a response, all he had to say for himself was, "No, sorry."

Here's what I posted (addressed to Steve):

On another thread on this site, I quoted Melanie Phillips, who has argued in her book Londonistan that "the attempt to take over our culture is even more deadly to this society than terrorism." And Bonzai argued that "we must say no to any suggestion of adopting Sharia of any kind, no matter how innocent it may sound. We have to close the door Islamization by stealth." To which you responded, "You may be right." ( source .)

On the same thread, decius wrote that, "I [...] think that by applying the existing laws without favouring any group on the basis of ethnic and religious sensibility, we would easily eradicate the Islamic threat." You responded by saying, "Absolutely. That is the solution." ( source .)

I noted that "the UK government has taken steps to address our situation. There is a long term strategy ("CONTEST") in place which, among other things, seeks to tackle the radicalisation of Muslims in the UK. In light of that, it's now a criminal offence to "directly or indirectly to encourage the commission, preparation, or instigation of acts of terrorism or to disseminate terrorist publications." (Source: Terrorism Act 2006.) There is also a list of "Unacceptable Behaviours" such as fomenting or glorifying violent jihad, or trying to persuade others to commit acts of violent jihad, which can be used to deport people from the UK. (Source: Home Office press release.)

And we are starting to see people being arrested and convicted of terrorism-related crimes: Mohamed Ajmal Khan, Andrew Rowe, Saajid Badat and Kamel Bourgass have all been jailed, to give just a few examples. Interestingly, three young Muslims, Younes Tsouli, Waseem Mughal and Tariq Al-Daour, were recently prosecuted for using the internet to incite terrorism. A CPS lawyer said, "Behind the apparent normality of their daily lives, these young men firmly believed, supported and set about inciting others to follow an extreme ideology of violent holy war against so-called disbelievers."" (Source: Crown Prosecution Service archives.)

There are also people like Abdullah al-Faisal being deported once they have served a prison sentence. You've said that you're for all of this.

It doesn't seem to be enough for you though, for you've also said, "I am NOT for a gentle approach against those who wish to threaten society. I am deeply disappointed that harsher measures aren't taken against those preaching hate, and inciting violence" and "I would restrict any immigration from those who would not subscribe to the culture of human rights of the UK." (source.) You have also said: "Enforce hate speech and incitement laws rigorously and with no pandering to cultures and religions." "Don't allow any new faith schools." (Steve Zara.)

All right then. What is one to make of this? Well, in the first place you agree with Fanusi that we have a problem with Islam, and you prefer a solution which involves depriving some British citizens of their liberty, and in certain cases, of their right to live in this country. Not only that, you believe that some people shouldn't even be allowed into the UK in the first place. And new faith schools are out.

Given your own stated position then, I remain unimpressed by your attempt to argue with me earlier, on the basis that if we allow our government to start taking away people's liberties, we're on the path to disaster. Slippery slope arguments aren't too impressive at the best of times, and I didn't take yours seriously. It's worth pointing out here though, that if you take what you said seriously, if you actually meant what you said, then you're arguing against your own position. Be sure to send in a post later letting everyone know how you've gotten on, once you're done arguing with yourself.

Remembering Mill's argument for freedom of speech, it appears that there isn't too much distance between what you and Fanusi propose in order to combat Islamic radicalism. Fanusi would take away the citizenship of those who engage in behaviour that is not conducive to the public good (as the legislation which you support puts it), which I assume would involve taking away their passport and kicking them out of the country. You would kick such people out of the country, which would involve either taking away their citizenship, or rendering any rights they have as UK citizens null and void, since they couldn't live in this country any more.

To anyone actually being told, "Fuck off and don't come back," the two policies would, I submit to you, seem remarkably similar.

In light of your stated position, how similar it actually is to Fanusi's, and your cordial response to bonzai's suggestion that there should be no Shariah in the UK, I have to say that your continual insults aimed at Fanusi are not only irrelevant, but quite irrational.


gb

13. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256932 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 6:53 pm

al-rawandi, decius, Steve and Titania,

I looked through this whole series of threads, and thought, what can one learn from all this? And I think this fellow said it best right here .. for me anyway, that's the final word. :-)

gb.

14. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256922 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 6:25 pm

al-rawandi, decius, and yes, Steve too.

A must read: Gay Sex and Slippery Slopes.

That guy is an excellent writer. A pleasure to read. Pity the subject matter is so unsettling..

gb.

15. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256905 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 5:37 pm

decius,

"I would suspect anyone's will to participate in a demonstration which is organised by the like of the BNP as a sign of extremism."

Did you check out some of those links? In the words of Willie Nelson and Dyan Cannon, there must be two sides to every story ... (Honeysuckle Rose)

Elderly Anti-Islamisation Activist Beaten Unconscious.

16. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256888 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 4:36 pm

"One of the reasons why hardcore anti-Semites (David Duke would be a case in point) are unreliable allies is that they hate Jews so much that it shuts down the rational parts of their brain and they end up making common cause with Muslims, based on mutual hatred. The same logic applies to hardcore anti-Europeans, of which there are many even at "conservative" websites such as LGF. They have an irrational hatred, a dark cloud in their minds which prevents them from seeing the world clearly. In a way, some LGF-ers thus have more in common with David Duke than they'd like to admit. If mindless anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism should be considered a problem then so should mindless anti-Europeanism." Fjordman, writing on Cologne. (See link in previous post.)

17. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256885 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 4:27 pm

"The U.N. is the only bastion of global negotiation that we have. Instead of the U.S. trying to tear it down at every opportunity, it should (if it were actually concerned with equitability) support the concept of a world parliament." (Laurie Fraser, comment no. 255621, The world according to Hitchens.)


Some Christian beliefs.


I'm curious about the logic being employed here. Since Laurie has said something that someone else entirely, on another website, has portrayed as being a precursor to the end of the world, should we now think of Laurie as a raging, flying haired, wild eyed fundy who thinks that the Left Behind novels are great literature? After all, that other guy, on that other website, said something that would be deeply unpleasant, if it ever came to pass. Just wondering like ..

18. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256883 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 4:19 pm

decius (and al-rawandi),

I take it this is referring to the same event, in a slightly more measured tone than that Emperor gadgie, or whatever he calls himself, used ..


An essay by Fjordman.

Links @ Gates of Vienna.

19. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256744 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 1:09 pm

Fox News: there are a number of nice little video clips on youtube of some of the more attractive female presenters crossing their legs while wearing short short skirts ... search for Fox News upskirt .. just saying ..

20. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256730 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 12:45 pm

Mitchell,

Nevertheless, there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone here from going on to another site and giving that Emperor fellow a piece of their mind. If they genuinely feel that strongly about it.

A couple of mouse clicks, and there you are ...


Steve,

So let's say Jack doesn't support gay marriage, or doesn't really care much about it one way or the other. Well, big deal. It does not follow that Jack is also a racist, an Islamophobe, a facist, or anything else.


All,

To anyone who would try to comment (to me,ha!) about the two issues of gay sex and Islamic doctrine, and in doing so call Fanusi all sorts of nasty names, I suggest you take the following passage on board, which I am absolutely 100% confident that Fanusi would approve of:


"The main reason I'd been glad to leave America was Protestant fundamentalism. But Europe, I eventually saw, was falling prey to an even more alarming fundamentalism whose leaders made their American Protestant counterparts look like amateurs. Falwell was an unsavory creep, but he didn't issue fatwas. James Dobson's parenting advice was appalling, but he wasn't telling people to murder their daughters. American liberals had been fighting the Religious Right for decades; Western Europeans had yet to even acknowledge that they had a Religious Right. How could they ignore it? Certainly as a gay man, I couldn't close my eyes to this grim reality. Pat Robertson just wanted to deny me marriage; the imams wanted to drop a wall on me. I wasn't fond of the hypocritical conservative-Christian line about hating the sin and loving the sinner, but it was preferable to the forthright fundamantalist Muslim view that homosexuals merited death. [...]

The situation was alarming. The very things I most loved about the Netherlands - and about Europe - were the things most threatened by the rise of fundamentalist Islam. Yet the Dutch did nothing. Why did they refuse to deal with something that obviously endangered their freedom? Didn't they see what I did? Didn't they notice the look of rage in the eyes of many Muslim men at the sight of that ultimate spectacle of dishonor - a Dutch woman bicycling to work? Or did they assume that such men, simply by inhaling the damp Dutch air, would somehow magically become open-minded and secular?" ( Bruce Bawer ), While Europe Slept, Broadway, pp. 33-34.)


Why is Fanusi always fighting the same fight as Bruce Bawer on this website? Kind of jars with some of the accusations being bandied around about him lately, doesn't it? Read that article I linked to by Bruce btw, it's excellent (as most of his work is).


I agree with al rawandi: all this whooping and a-hollering is just white noise. There is no logically relevant point to be made here.

"While the circumstances of the opponent may not be the issue in a serious argument, calling attention to them may be psychologically effective in winning assent, or in persuading others. But however persuasive it may prove, arguments of this kind are essentially fallacious.

Circumstantial ad hominem arguments are sometimes used to suggest that the opponents' conclusion should be rejected because their judgement is warped, dictated by their special situation rather than by reasoning or evidence. But an argument that is favourable to some group deserves discussion on its merits; it is fallacious to attack it simply on the ground that it is presented by a member of that group and is therefore self-serving. The arguments in favor of a protective tariff (for example) may be bad, but they are not bad because they are presented by a manufacturer who benefits from such tariffs.

One argument of this kind, called "poisoning the well," is particularly perverse. The incident that gave rise to the name illustrates the argument forecfully. The British novelist and clergyman Charles Kinglsey, attacking the famous Catholic intellectual John Henry Cardinal Newman, argued thus: Cardinal Newman's claims were not to be trusted because, as a Roman Catholic priest (Kingsley alleged), Newman's first loyalty was not to the truth. Newman countered that this ad hominem attack made it impossible for him and indeed for all Catholics to advance their arguments, since anything that they might say to defend themselves would then be undermined by others' alleging that, after all, truth was not their first concern. Kingsley, said Cardinal Newman, had poisoned the well of discourse." (Copi & Cohen, Introduction to Logic (11th Ed.), Prentice Hall, pp. 144-145.)

And there it is.

21. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256656 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 9:58 am

I have a suggestion: you all know about that site now, and you've all read what the other posters (bar Fanusi) have said on there. I mean, you have all read it, haven't you ... surely ...

So unless you secretly all agree with every word that every one of those posters has said .. why don't you all go on to that site and tell them that they're wrong?

There's absolutely nothing stopping any of you. You try to criticise someone else for not doing something .. do it yourselves then.

22. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256545 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 8:20 am

It is a clever and common political tactic. Approval by association. You get to support certain points of view, but you also get plausible deniability about expressing racist views yourself. Steve

Oh nonsense! Maybe he was too busy. Maybe he was posting over here. Maybe there was something on TV. Maybe he just fancied going down the pub for a pint or three. Maybe ... you get the idea.

As Sciros said, a lot of people on this site speak a load of utter shite, and just because you don't take the time to write a post explaining why you disagree with them when they do, it does not follow that you agree with them.

Jesus, guilt by association now, how low can this board go?

23. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256535 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 8:09 am

I remember being at work many years ago when my dad was still alive, and one of the fishermen came in and told me that someone had reversed a fork lift and knocked my dad over in one of the ports down the coast. I laid down my tools and walked out to the firm's van. My apprentice at the time came running out after me and asked where I was going. I told him I was going to PD to find the bastard that had knocked down my dad. My apprentice managed to settle me down, but if he hadn't been there with me, I would have, as Clint Eastwood once said, done "something massive".

To anyone out there I would ask: if a group of any kind, young lassies drinking alcopops, "neds" wearing Burberry jackets, or fellows like those we saw protesting all around the world after the Danish cartoons were published, if any group of people set about your old dad, you'd be mighty upset about it.

Wouldn't you?

Thanking someone for thinking about the welfare of your father is perfectly polite, and anyone who criticises someone for that, or who twists their words to make it seem like anything other than that, is a total jackass. That's all there is about it.

gb

24. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256533 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 8:02 am

Nairb,

Re: comment no. 256515

Oh, come on! You're being completely dishonest there!

gb.

25. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256526 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 7:55 am

decius,

hey, cheers man.

gb

26. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256521 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 7:50 am

"I would be cautious about letting anyone in who had shown signs of being an angry young man from any background. I did not mean to imply that we totally ignore their existing background." Steve.

But this brings us back again to what you said earlier about not being able to accept what people say they believe at face value. If that's in doubt, then how could one know whether to let person A in and refuse entry to person B? They might say, "I'm a good guy really." But how can one tell which, or if either of them, is being sincere? You see the problem I'm trying to bring out here? (I'm sure you do, since after all it's something you argued for earlier.)

gb.

27. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256508 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 7:35 am

decius,

I've been thinking lately about signing up with the OU again, I already have a degree with them & they let graduates pick any course they want, & let you sign on right up till the last minute. Anyway, here's the course I've been looking at:

http://www3.open.ac.uk/courses/bin/p12.dll?C01AA308

28. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256506 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 7:31 am

decius,

Lay those links upon me, brother!

gb.

29. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256500 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 7:25 am

Can I just point out that the post quoted above is not from Fanusi; so far as I can make out, it's from an altogether different person: some Emperor gadgie who doesn't post here at Rd dot net, and who to the best of my knowledge, never has.



Titania,

I think you're limited to five links per post, perhaps you went over that, & the system didn't like it? Also you can make a tidy wee hyperlink in your posts by adding a little bit of code before and after the link itself and the words you want to be highlighted in your post. If you click on the "Comment Posting Guidelines" that'll keep you right in that regard. Hope that helps.

gb

30. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256489 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 7:14 am

decius,

In fact I got so excited with your last post that I'm going to have to go and make a cup of tea and try to calm down. ;-)

That really is the problem, so far as I'm concerned. All the Christians' talk about being punished in the afterlife, well how does that work, exactly? I've got a "soul" have I? A "thinking thing" that's separate from my body? Funnily enough, I can't recall reading about souls in the bible. Where do they come from? Does God have a big cupboard where he keeps spare souls while he's waiting for people to conceive down here on planet Earth? I'm not even going to start, I'm really not. But: If when I die that's it, then the whole Christian (and Muslim) project is nothing but empty words, and they can all take a running jump. No, no, I'm stopping now, and I'm going to put the kettle on ..


Sam harris is studying neurology is he not? If he writes a book on this topic I'll be waiting at Waterstone's door the day it's released. I recall him losing the plot when someone on Bill O'Reilly (I think it was) started going on about free will. Sam tore him to shreds. A fantasy! (Apparently.) All good stuff, as I said, this is the most interesting problem ever: what exactly is going on between our lugs?

gb.

31. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256477 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 7:03 am

decius,

"Also 'consciousness' is very difficult to define, yet we have no reason to doubt its existence."

Actually ...

This is a very interesting problem. Maybe the most interesting problem of all ..

32. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256470 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 6:57 am

decius,

The point I was making is that for all this talk about "human rights" it's remarkably difficult to define the term. A bit like hunting for haggis.

It's kind of like when theists talk about God; when you stop them and say, well define your terms & tell me what you're referring to when you use the term "God," they realise that they haven't really attempted to think about that question before. (We've all read George H. Smith, right?)

I could take your attempt at defining my "human rights" and translate it into talk about what Berlin called "negative freedom" (easily). And as you'll probably know, one of the great defenders of the individual's negative freedom, John Stuart Mill, along with Jeremy Bentham, regarded talk about the existence of natural rights as "nonsense on stilts". (Warburton, "Arguments for Freedom," OU, p. 61.) Are "human rights" any different from "natural rights"? Was Mill wrong? Can we think of human rights in terms of negative freedom? Is is possible to define "human rights" using that concept?

It's an interesting problem.

gb

33. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256461 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 6:48 am

Steve, so angry young males from Muslim backgrounds who have spent time in some of the many "hot spots" around the world before suddently saying they wanted to come and sign on, sorry what was it you said ealier, make your own way, in the United Kingdom, pose exactly the same risk to the people around them as a little old lady from China who's come over to help her family run your local takeaway?

Apart from anything else, it is practially impossible to monitor absolutely everyone who comes into the UK to live. Who's going to do it? Who's going to pay for it?

If you have finite resources, then you have to pick and choose. Who would you monitor, really?

Let's say there's another event like 7/7. We all know it could happen any day. Let's say that has happened. Again.

Who would you choose to monitor? Honestly?

34. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256456 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 6:40 am

decius,

Can you describe one for me, since you seem to think you know not only where such strange beasties reside, but what they are?

I put it to you that going looking for a "human right" is not dissimilar to going on a haggis hunt ..

gb.

35. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256449 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 6:33 am

Steve,

I was talking to a bloke from Pakistan not long ago and he was saying that if he stayed in the UK and worked for, I think it was 3 years, he would then be eligible for a British passport. (Maybe it was 5 years, I can't recall ..)

gb.

36. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256446 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 6:31 am

Laurie,

What is a "human right"? Since you appear to think you know.

Tell me where I can find one. Under the bed maybe? In the boot of the car? Maybe if I take a walk down to the beach later and look under a stone?

gb

37. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256441 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 6:26 am

Steve ma loon,

I'm wondering if you're ever going to address the fact that two of your favourite arguments cancel one another out. You want immigration to the UK to be controlled, and people who don't agree with the basic values of British culture won't get in.

But you've also argued to Fanusi when he cited a poll about what people think, that you can't trust what people tell you they think, & that they could actually believe something else altogether.

So, as I said earlier: how could one implement your proposed immigration limitation policy?

Saying "they should be monitored" doesn't take you out of the thrap you're in, since "monitoring" people who live abroad and who want to come and live in the UK is, to mention just one difficulty, practially impossible.

Letting people come in and then monitoring them, well that's only slightly more practical (but still, I would think, to all intents and purposes impossible to do due to insufficient resources).

And in what way would "monitoring" immigrants be in accordance with their human rights? It all sounds rather sinister ..

There are some problems with your thinking. I've pointed out a lack of consistency in what you've said on this board before, and you made like an ostrich that time. I have to say, I'm expecting more of the same this time around. But maybe you'll surprise me, and actually put your thinking cap on. We'll see.

gb.

38. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256403 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 5:35 am

Pbu_me

Re: comment no. 256286

I believe the actual assertion made was not what you said in your post, but that the contribution to chaos and evil made by the forces of Islam over the last five hundred years has been "huge".

If you wish to debate that, (and you say it can be done) then perhaps you should do so.

Before you try though, can I suggest you read "Empires of the Sea" by Roger Crowley, "The Great Siege" by Ernle Bradford, and "White Gold" by Giles Milton. The first and last books tell (part of) the story of the slavery inflicted by Muslims upon Europeans over a significant part of that five hundred year period. The evil acts perpetrated by them upon their captives are so heinous, it just beggars belief.

I noticed in one of your posts that you mentioned Mormon polygamy. As you probably know, the mainstream LDS fellas would tell you that "real" Mormons don't do that anymore, and it's only the FLDS people who live "the principle".

One interesting comment I came across recently was in "When Men Became Gods" by Stephen Singular, and it appears that within the FLDS community itself, there was a rumour going around (among the women) that Mormon men would fly off on trips to the Middle East to learn from Muslims just how to treat their women!

That's a worthwhile book, but I would definitely have to recommend Jon Krakauer's "Under The Banner of Heaven" as the best introduction to Mormonism, and to the potential dangers of real hardcore religous belief, out there.

gb.

PS. Have you seen "Big Love"? Excellent series.

39. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256373 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 5:08 am

Steve,

Monitor them while they are still abroad?

gb.

40. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256224 by GoatBoy36 on September 29, 2008 at 1:47 am

Might I just mention two of Steve's arguments here. First he has said repeatedly that immigration ought to be limited to those who would respect the culture of the UK, and the citizens of that country.

But he has also argued against Fanusi's citing of polls on the basis that you can't trust people to say what they really believe.

Which makes any kind of formal interviews, or any kind of immigration paperwork at all, for anyone wanting to come here to live, a bit of a waste of time, does it not?

How could the UK make Steve's "limited immigration" policy work then?

gb

41. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256048 by GoatBoy36 on September 28, 2008 at 5:11 pm

Comment no. 256043

Your intellect obviously outstrips everone else's on the board. So please continue to enlighten us all with your pearls of wisdom. I have no doubt that us uneducated folk will find your profound utterances of great value, as we go about our daily lives.

42. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256042 by GoatBoy36 on September 28, 2008 at 5:03 pm

Steve,

No seriously, I mentioned that ethics and citizenship are supposed to be taught in UK schools. I agree with you that this is terribly important, and would add that it needs to be done properly, although it might be hard to define what that means, and would probably be difficult to do as well.

I wonder if it would be possible to find out how "citizenship" is taught in UK schools? It does seem to me that if this was done well, it would have tremendous benefits for the UK in the years to come.

I wouldn't just frame it as an effort to deal with Islam either, we've all seen the teenagers of today acting poorly, gangs on street corners, talk of knives, etc. Could one not say that it would be beneficial for everyone (us oldies and all the young people attending UK schools) if young people were taught what it is to be a good citizen, or more fundamentally, a good person, as they go through school?

43. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256036 by GoatBoy36 on September 28, 2008 at 4:58 pm

comment no. 256002

Do you realise that such a comment speaks to your own level of maturity, and that is all it does?

Maybe you don't, oh well ..

gb

44. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256030 by GoatBoy36 on September 28, 2008 at 4:54 pm

Steve,

What was it again?

gb.

45. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256023 by GoatBoy36 on September 28, 2008 at 4:47 pm

Steve,

comment no. 255996

The argument you just made up may "basically" be that, but it's not one I've put forward. Talk about a straw man.

What I was saying was that we (as in the people living in Britain and the politicians currently, er, running the place) need to put our thinking caps on and try to find a good way forward for the UK.

If we don't, and at some point in the not too distant future we all wake up some fine day and think to ourselves, holy shit man, things have gone too far, there's a mosque down the end of every road and no bacon rolls in the bakers! then it may be that the only people who have any actionable proposals at all are, say, the BNP.

Much better surely, that we all put our thinking caps on now. Seven years plus after 9/11 btw. I think it's about time ..

46. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255995 by GoatBoy36 on September 28, 2008 at 4:23 pm

mordacious,

Diacanu needs to read the golden rule. And grow up some. The minute he starts behaving like a mature adult, I'll treat him like one. But since he insists on behaving like a spoilt little brat ..

And everyone on here chooses to put in their posts, if you're all that bothered about people being "out of line" I suggest you concern yourself more with those who are "out of line" in the first place, rather than those who are responding to their posts. Show some consistency in your thinking. Seeing that would be a nice change around here.

gb.

47. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255992 by GoatBoy36 on September 28, 2008 at 4:21 pm

Get rid of faith schools eventually, but for a start control their intake and monitor what they teach. Ensure lessons on critical thinking, comparative religion and citizenship. - Steve Zara

I seem to remember reading a few years ago about a programme that was running in schools teaching youngsters basic thinking skills (maybe it was in America, I think the person who told me about it lived in the States .. that was about what, 5 yrs ago though, so I'm not sure.. )

I had a look at some sites like teachre dot com a while ago as well, and I think there are now classes in ethics and so forth - I mean it's possible to find that going on in the UK, I think.

And I'm pretty sure that "citizenship" was supposed to be brought into the official curriculum a couple of years ago. I'm not sure how one would qualify to teach that subject, mine you. And I'm not sure how it is, or was, taught. Along with other subjects, in the last half an hour before lunchtime? I can't recall seeing any exams on the subject in its own right ...

gb.

48. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255982 by GoatBoy36 on September 28, 2008 at 4:11 pm

I've made this argument elsewhere as well. In fact I think I read Sam Harris say it: if normal, "mainstream" people & politicians don't come up with an effective approach to the undeniable threat posed by Islamic terrorism, and if they don't quit denying that our culture is also being threatened, then the day will arrive when citizens in Western countries will decide that they do in fact want this problem to be addressed, but there will only be people like the BNP agreeing with them. They'll be the only game in town. What happens then?

49. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255964 by GoatBoy36 on September 28, 2008 at 3:55 pm

decius,

For goodness sake! Who's wearing anything as a badge of honour? The point I was making, and it seems like I'm going to have to make it again, was that you never know who you're talking to on the internet, and if anyone anywhere thinks that tough talk about threatening to kick my ass is going to have any kind of effect on me at all, they're absolutely wrong. I've been in the situation where people have actually tried it, was the point I was making. So anyone saying on the internet that they're going to do that, well as I said, that doesn't exactly make my balls shrivel.

Anyone saying something like that knows fine well they're never going to do it, it's all just words on a screen, and in this particular case it wasn't going to have the person the original comment was aimed at (me) shaking in their boots either. I thought I'd just explain why that was so. So there's absolutely nothing to be gained from it at all.

(If I happened to really be, say, Chuck Liddell (hey we've got a TS pornstar, why not a UFC fighter?) instead of an ex-welder & rugby player, that would have been what I said - I'm a professional fighter - in order to make the same point.)

Get it? If you still don't, then don't bother asking again, because I can't be bothered continually going over the alphabet, so to speak, with adults who are already supposed to be able to read.

Diacanu,

Grow up. Or cut your wrists. You know you want to.


gb.

50. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255853 by GoatBoy36 on September 28, 2008 at 12:25 pm

Re: Comment #255598

hawt4dawk,

It's all right, all over and forgotten about so far as I'm concerned. If you have Scottish ancestors and you do make it over here at some point, I'm sure you'll enjoy it & have a rare old time! :-)

I'm troubled with the whole sleep dep thing as well, it's not good at all. I do all kinds of weird shifts, but the worst is if you're doing a run of overnights and then, bango! you're on earlies again, man that just kills me. I'm really getting too old for that kind of carry on ..

gb.