1. The God Delusion

Comment #229729 by Downunder on August 14, 2008 at 2:00 am

Re Laurie F's 194.
No use blaming deities, they are hard to get out of one's system. The average human mind appears to need them to blame, thank, pray or call out to, as if a God sits on a throne and pulls all the strings with omnipresent hands. I've replaced the label "god" by the label "life" to avoid hanging any human traits on whatever may 'drive' the universe of which we're still guessing about a beginning, but may have no beginning or end but just 'is'.
I won't bore all here but if you want to get my drift just click on the "Other Comments.........." herebelow and scroll all the way back to my first entries in Jun 2007. My idea of "life" still serves me well, is quite pliable, every problem fits-in, death does not worry me. If there is an afterlife, that fits-in too, no problem.

Re Dr Doctor's 202.
If you're sorry about doing something, don't do it. Have you placed yourself on a high chair (judging from your avatar), almost like a deity, with 2 PhD's, God Himself?.

2. The God Delusion

Comment #229688 by Downunder on August 13, 2008 at 11:58 pm

Re mord's 149.
What about me! Will I be blackballed? I'm only 8x10dec's and row a single scull 5k. in 25 min. every 2nd day!
Yes I'm sorry, I have sinned: years of too much cheese, liversausage, bacon and blackpudding. For punishment: had a "genetic" heart attack last year, was re-bored, now kept open by 3 stents. Got me rowing again be it 5k. reduced from 7 k.
A couple of months ago my waterworks blocked. Useful and clever 'relieving' devices those catheters! Prostate required re-boring; biopsy showed no cancer. Urologist said that my expiry date would now beat future cancer in that department.
Am going to eat a little tasty cheese again just to test if the Lipitor pills will control the cholesterol. Life consists of trial and error, R.D. has written books about it and his site keeps the mind amused and active.
Please mordy am I allowed to pop-up just now and again? If I don't behave you can rely on steve z to put me in the corner. Goldy doesn't mind what I do because he also suffers from the permanent upside-down syndrome, a natural affliction from hanging-on the bottom of the globe. It's B-hard to keep your feet on the ground here.
Have fun.

3. The God Delusion

Comment #229593 by Downunder on August 13, 2008 at 8:29 pm

Hi all.
Now and again I look at the home page to see if there is a run and..........this thread stuck out. I might as well not have bothered and am amazed that so many of you fell into the trap of that post # by that poster who I shall not do the pleasure of naming. All the attention of course encouraged him to get some more attention. IMO posters with such a mind are beyond reason. Such minds need psychiatric attention.
BTW it took till post 86 to get off stupid subject. Sorry, I jumped to conclusions, post 104 couldn't think of anything better to do. A pity that, because his earlier post 94 did bring things nicely back to the thread's subject.
Goldy, re pain, try kidney stones!

4. Do stop behaving as if you are God, Professor Dawkins

Comment #228975 by Downunder on August 12, 2008 at 11:35 pm

Re Goldy's post 222.
IMO nw is not trying to say anything but 'demon'strating how bible interpretations can be made to suit one's imagination. I quite enjoyed his/her rantings. The wide spacing promotes fast reading. Josh must be happy with it or he would have interfered.

5. PLEASE WRITE IN SUPPORT OF PZ MYERS

Comment #210098 by Downunder on July 13, 2008 at 11:37 pm

In my opnion:
from reading only the latest couple of comment-pages it seems superfluous to me to write letters to Prof Bruininks. If I were PZ Myers and felt that my superiors were not supporting me, I would not want to stay there.

Referring to the crux of the incident: the use of bread and wine during the ritual of mass; even as a child I took such hocus pocus as symbolic ceremony, not as facts. One was expected to believe it, but I had learned that Santa Claus serves a purpose and that one must not believe anything unless one can understand it. I feel somewhat sorry for student Cook and can only assume that his education has let him down, failed to make him think for himself. He should have learned from history that religious fanatics behave illogically, cause killing and holy wars. However, religions do serve a purpose of guiding the seekers. Again history has it that any leaders, religious, local, state, national or global, may lead us along good or along bad tracks. We have been given brains and a free will to make our own decisions and guide our lives; social services assist the needy.

6. EXPELLED!

Comment #147565 by Downunder on March 20, 2008 at 10:27 pm

ROFLOL!!
Yes please let Prof Richard tell us all about it.

7. Fleabytes

Comment #144036 by Downunder on March 14, 2008 at 11:03 pm

This post's line-up and speed is so awesome!
I just cannot manage to catch up, read the lot to post 1400, then thought to better skip some, started again at post 1700, read to 2750, skipped to 2850, read to 5156 on page 104, had to constrain myself from commenting on many posts but cannot stop myself for this one. I apologise for back tracking but please allow me to say to clearthinker : don't be daft in your reply to Sharon, shielding behind "Science tells us......"! An unborn does NOT have everything that an alive individual has. Something is added at birth to change the unborn-assembly-of-alive-cells and it is not until then that a new individual starts its own earthly sojourn.

8. Fleabytes

Comment #137441 by Downunder on March 2, 2008 at 9:45 pm

Paula Kirby look what you have done! An avalanche of comments, set in motion by your earth shattering review of 4 books and as if that were not enough work, you paged through another six in a sterling effort to reduce belief in fairytales; you're a spoil-sport! Believers are used to mummy-church-fairytales lulling them to sleep; they don't like giving up sucking their conscience-calming religious dummy-thumbs. Theists have been indoctrinated to see the world through coloured glasses, to follow one track or else.......hell-fire.

I started reading this thread when it was already snowballing; revisited briefly whenever time permitted but found it impossible to catch up; each 24 hrs many more comments. I've read up to 659 but curiosity made me jump to read 1400 to 1722. I'd better add my tribute to you now; the thread is likely to close before I'll have caught-up with the last entry.

I add my praises for your fine effort and refer in particular to your spot-on "God is really created in our image." (p12,post586). Yes, Gods are invented by humans, take your pick, a variety of Gods, all with human traits, including magic!

Those who have never "believed" may wonder (like I did) why it has taken me some 70 years to stop going to church? Briefly: because for years I was flat-out making a living and fighting public relations lies. Sitting in a church surrounded by a long-familiar routine, letting the world pass-by is very relaxing; as any one may have seen in TV doc's in retreats by non-believers in monasteries. I gradually dropped my indoctrinated catholic faith when I retired. Now I hav-n't got long to go-to-hell. Letting you know if it is a hot place would be a miracle!

Referring to David R.; the poor fellow has little choice. He is in the religious boat. He either rows in tune or must jump overboard to swim for his life. Having then lost his life-support and (presumably) the financial security of his hard-earned job, he will have to face the reality of having to keep his head above water by earning his daily bread in the rat-race of civilisation. Meantime I think we can help him best by reminding him that it is not us but 'he', who believes things. He has to convince 'us'; we just listen and keep reminding him with logic. Misleading his congregation will eventually stir his conscience.

9. Fleabytes

Comment #134315 by Downunder on February 27, 2008 at 3:16 pm

Diacanu please check your pm

10. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #129994 by Downunder on February 19, 2008 at 9:17 pm

re post 117
How could we know that we will comprehend whatever lies beyond our present horizon of knowledge? We will try, but we may not manage.

11. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #129984 by Downunder on February 19, 2008 at 9:00 pm

re post 114
After 80 years, mankind makes less and less sense to me. As I suggested, ask those who have had their backs against the wall. I'm pleased to see that you realise our knowledge being incomplete. Do you think it is within our intelligence to ever comprehend the *world*, the infinitely large and small universe?

12. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #129973 by Downunder on February 19, 2008 at 8:38 pm

Having quick-read this whole thread, I think that Ian Bamlett's post 52 best sums up the (foregone?) conclusion of such research. Having progressed from cave-dwellers to our more sophisticated times, I also recommend each of you to talk to some returned soldiers who have actually been on the battlefront and experienced the seemingly hopeless situation of bullets, grenades and mortar shells raining down on them. No caves for shelter; the instinctive final lifeline then is a cry-out of "God help me". That has nothing to do with indoctrinated religions, nor with a belief in an afterlife.
IMHO it is a natural instinct, a natural realisation that there is more to life than the human mind comprehends.
Religions are man-made attempts to explain the behaviour of planet earth and its inhabitants. Scientific explanations have been too elitist, have outpaced religions. Whose fault? RD is showing the way.

13. A match made on RichardDawkins.net?

Comment #128358 by Downunder on February 16, 2008 at 8:20 pm

Congrats to you both. How romantic! Wishing you all the happiness of the young at heart.

14. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #123310 by Downunder on February 6, 2008 at 11:26 pm

Further to my faulty posts 1740 I have been in contact with Josh but am awaiting his further emails. I just tried to transfer and enter a new comment but only the first 6 words of the above are from my new comment. the rest I have typed direct on here. On entry to this thread's site the comment appears below the line of all the page #'s. Back to Josh.

15. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #122211 by Downunder on February 4, 2008 at 11:37 pm

Please ignore my post 1740 #122205 which obviously got chopped off. I made several attempts. In addition to "hieroglyphics" replacing any dashes, I don't get any preview either. I'll email Josh.

16. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #122205 by Downunder on February 4, 2008 at 11:19 pm

Re post1673, #121992 from Kardashovel. I have been somewhat following your posts here and noted that you grew up in atheistic surroundings and became religious by listening to your conscience.
How can you or the Pope or any other religious leaders know what their Gods want?
You provided the answer: like you, they follow their conscience. It has evidently not become obvious to you that one’s conscience alone is not reliable? Has it not occurred to you that we are all subject to indoctrination by our environment? Have you considered that the universe, planet earth, natural phenomena, meteors, thunder

17. Pope says some science shatters human dignity

Comment #120509 by Downunder on February 1, 2008 at 9:12 pm

Me thinks (don’t snigger, I find it an effort), the Pope is not alone in confusing “alive” with “having life”.
I do wish science would clarify the “alive” versus “life” difference unanimously, publicly and loudly. It appears obvious to me to believe that one alive cell cannot have life because life would not be so stupid as to occupy an incomplete building.

18. Happy Birthday Josh Timonen!

Comment #119950 by Downunder on February 1, 2008 at 3:48 am

Josh you must have had a happy birthday, warmed by so many thankful worldwide users of your daily efforts. Nice gesture by RD to show us his appreciation of your success with this site. Wishing you many happy years from down under.
BTW,I sent the above some hours ago, repeatedly without success until it went through as “Comment #119657 on 31Jan at 6:02 pm” but I noticed that it had not been given a post #.
On another thread I saw other posters also had some problems which made me check this site again and found that #119657 has indeed got lost somehow. Therefore this repeated even more belated best wishes. Preview is missing.

19. The Pagan Christ

Comment #108987 by Downunder on January 8, 2008 at 4:58 am

Further to Goldy's last para of post 319, the analogy about fire, a good one. I have thought about it: fire is a chemical reaction, flames are light caused by gas changing chemically at high temperatures, using oxygen from the surrounding air, producing heat, Fire is not an abstract!

20. The Pagan Christ

Comment #108979 by Downunder on January 8, 2008 at 4:24 am

Goldy, yes I too have considered the analogy of life in batteries but that was of no help. Battery-life is a potential difference, Voltage, obtained from a chemical reaction when the 2 poles are connected. If the connection is a wire with significant resistance the wire will produce heat and light. The Volts will drop until the connection is removed, the chemical reaction continues for a moment until the Voltage is restored. After a certain usage the chemicals will reach an exhausted stage, etc.,etc. I have thus reasoned that 'life' in animals is not like electricity. The 'life' I denote between dashes is an abstract concept.
Of course I do not know what 'life' is. If I did I would not be writing this!
I am not a biologist, nor a geneticist, I am only a Civil Eng'r who worked with solid matter to create tangible results for all to enjoy. However, I have seen, suffered, enjoyed but also been disgusted with so many bad things done and still being done by humans of all descriptions that I have lost all respect for all religions. I have one huge proviso: the bulk of humans do not know any better because the "leaders" have led them astray and through them their offspring. There are many posters on these RD threads who don't seem to realise how lucky they are to be independent thinkers!
So, I can't stop myself from pursuing the common theme in all : 'life', in humans of all colour and creed, animals, microbes, plants, anything alive.

21. The Pagan Christ

Comment #108908 by Downunder on January 7, 2008 at 11:53 pm

A Happy 2008 to all of you. I had a good start. We had a string of relations for o'nite visits, leaving no time for web discussions; nice break though.
Sorry for being even slower off the mark then usual but thank you (around comments #106745) Steve Zara, Roland F & Goldy for your unanimous opinion, which I'll put in my own words to make sure I got it right: 1. DNA is a molecule, does not have its own 'life', is not about multiplication and does not set-off multiplication of cells, but chemical signals do, which I assume, could sooner or later come from a chemical reaction between the DNA's surrounding requisite matter exposed to the requisite environment.
I sense a gap (not to be filled by Dianelos!) between the cells-in-waiting(=ciw) and the cells-multiplying(=cm). The ciw have their unique DNA, the cm are alive but do not have 'life' because, I suggest from 1. above, that when the DNA of the ciw receives a chemical signal and the cm are reproducing into their respective building blocks as per their DNA code, 'life' has not entered yet, the zygote-fetal phase before birth, awaiting life at birth?
Keep in mind my reasoning that 'life', an abstract, is not "nothing"; 'life' is apparently not made of matter with which we are familiar but we can scientifically test its presence and its absence. 'Life' is the most important concept on earth, all sorts of religions have evolved around it, have been fighting over it since the year dot, but we are putting our thinking heads in the sand and some avoid the subject by offering glib remarks, while religions continue to thrive on their godly interpretations!

22. The Pagan Christ

Comment #107022 by Downunder on January 3, 2008 at 11:28 pm

ReSteve Zara's313.
Can I say then that "viable" denotes DNA is active and "dead" DNA is returning to dust?
I'm familiar with the poultry-meat industry where e.g. a batch of 100,000 eggs is taken from the coolroom and placed in an incubator on a date being a precise # of days prior to the date that a poultry growing farm will be cleaned out and ready to receive a new batch of day-old chicks for growing-out for consumption. From that I assume that the (fertile) eggs are kept in viable condition and have no multiplying cells, no 'life' as yet, while cooled. When placed in the incubator and when temperature etc. have been appropriate, 'life' enters (from wherever) to start the DNA sending its "building code" to start the cells multiplying. Am I correct in this?

Another example to clarify to me when 'life' starts: if I get a packet of cabbage seeds in the shop. I expect those seeds to be viable. From what you have told me now, does it mean that such seeds are only viable if the DNA is 'alive' so that, when the seed falls on the appropriately moist etc. soil, 'life' sets-off the DNA to signal the cells to start multiplying? Could I see if the seed is viable under a microscope, with bisection?

23. Sadly, an Honest Creationist

Comment #106960 by Downunder on January 3, 2008 at 6:44 pm

Diacanu
Yeah, I put a couple of questions in that pm; not for publication, unless you suggest it! 8-)

24. Sadly, an Honest Creationist

Comment #106931 by Downunder on January 3, 2008 at 5:44 pm

Diacanu

I appreciate your frequent and rapid fire posts in many threads but could you, just now&again, give us some positive comments & suggestions to give some idea of what motivates you.

BTW, I sent you a pm on Dec 24 at 16:08; have you read it? I am not aware of your reply.

25. The Pagan Christ

Comment #106425 by Downunder on January 2, 2008 at 10:42 pm

ReTonyA's 307. Do sperm and egg have 'life' themselves or are they alive, kept alive, by sponging on a host with 'life'? It takes concentrated thinking to see the difference. Use your arm as an example, it is alive, chop it off and, unless it has 'life', it will die. If you are quick to have a surgeon sew it back on before it is dead, the 'life' in your body may put the arm back to work. Does your arm have 'life'? No, but it is alive.

Our cells are alive, do not have 'life', sponge on the 'life' instilled in our bodies (no, not just in our heart or just in our brain; 'life' has none of our dimensions). Our alive cells reproduce as per their DNA/building code, each to its prescribed task.

A traffic jam is man-made, is in our dimensions, not an abstract.

Sounds are well explained by physics. No mystery there; no life involved.

I can think of an analogy, which may hang me. Is a fertile chicken-egg alive? I say yes. Does it have life? No. When does it get life then? When the appropriate environment of temperature, environment, turning-at-intervals, etc, are applied, 'life' may enter, the DNA is activated and things start to grow. No umbilical cord to the mother involved in that one (yes I know there is a cord to the yoke). The chick is fending for itself right from "go", breaks its own shell, and comes out in pecking-order.

I am listening, trying hard to have myself tripped up. 'Life' is not the observable condition, alive is the sign of 'life'; being alive is caused by the presence of 'life' keeping the alive 'alive'. 'Life' is not a thing. 'Life' is an abstract, as are love, fear, joy, etc.; are they things?

26. The Pagan Christ

Comment #106379 by Downunder on January 2, 2008 at 7:01 pm

Re 294, Tony A, my reasoning agrees with yours that egg and sperm are alive ( if all is well), but... think about it: have they got 'life' themselves, are they able to exist outside their host, or are they using the 'life' of their host? Host dead= sperm/egg dead. If you agree that you can observe that 'life' is evident, how can you just dismiss the presence of it? It is just kidding yourself, it is illogical to label 'life' as 'nothing' when you have just observed its presence as a fact.

I have emphasised in previous posts that 'life' is an abstract. It is not a component, not made of earthly matter. Life belongs in a different dimension but its presence becomes temporarily a discernable fact to us while 'life' can be sensed in a living body.

Re 295, al-rawandi, I think my reply to 294 hereabove covers your points.

Re 296, Steve Zara. It is very difficult to explain my reasoning. It has taken me a long time to fit, whatever goes on around me, into my reasoning but sofar so good and out went my religious indoctrination. My reasoning has nothing to do with holy books, fairy tales or godly assumptions. I don't blame a God nor do I thank a God. Those books and Gods have evolved over the ages in human brains to explain the behaviour of 'nature'.
Your assumption that the abstract concept 'life' is not real is cluttered by a preconceived concept of what is 'real'. When a medical test confirms the presence of 'life' in a body, do you then say the tests looked for nothing and found nothing? In my reasoning you are erroneously applying the word 'real' to an abstract that belongs to a dimension beyond our dimensions, beyond our mere human comprehension.

The abstracts identity, mind, etc, are instilled/activated and become testable in a body when 'life' enters at birth and disappear beyond our limited dimensional horizons at death. Those abstracts are not 'nothing', they are not figments of our imagination. Previous generations have indoctrinated our minds to label everything with God, supernatural or whatever. Do you agree that there are other dimensions? E.g. take 'infinity'; does it exist, is it an abstract? In which direction would you look for it, etc.?

Steve, I noticed in the "Synthetic DNA" thread that you have quite some bio-science knowledge Did you see my post 21 in there with my opinion that DNA is not 'life', as distinct from being 'alive' to actively apply a "building code" to direct the growth of 'life' cells that are alive as part of a host which has 'life'. I asked in that thread to be corrected if my opinion is wrong but no one said I was.

I was ready to post all the above and found Walk's 298, which is probably answered in the above.
Steve's 300, the water surface patterns are created by the flow velocity; hydraulic explanations are known. In my idea, 'life' is not a flow of energy; 'alive' is, the visible presence.
Al-rawandi's 302; you are as free as I to think whatever suits you, so long as you do not force it as a gospel on others and cause wars with it. Keep talking and thinking! Any ideas you may hear or dream up about an afterlife are pure conjecture because what happens after death is not in our dimension. I could suggest that life resides in the space in us and surrounding us, no dimensions involved; life just IS. I could think of infinitely small, no not even that small, much smaller than we can imagine, no dimension involved.
You did hit a nail on the head; you exposed our human problem: we want to invent answers. Are we now reaching a stage of knowledge that we have become wise enough to try and change all religious thinking. Forget about gods, think about creating peace which is within our dimension and will make our world into a paradise!

I'll post all this (uncorrected) before my other duties call me away.

27. The Pagan Christ

Comment #105900 by Downunder on January 2, 2008 at 5:01 am

Goldy.
I too was led to understand that DNA does not have 'life' but I reason that DNA can become alive if it has been planted in a live cell. At fertilisation, DNA in a cell with 'life' from the father, combines with the DNA in a 'life' cell from the mother to form a new unique DNA, the building code for the fetus, for the future, new unique human. Using your analogy of a house; DNA is like the specification that defines the features of the yet to be completed building.

I believe that organs for transplanting are kept alive by placing them in ice or may be in some other artificial environment. Natural 'life' implies to me: connected to a live body. I could envisage that a heart for transplanting could be connected externally to a carrier's wrist-artery, rather then placed in ice and thus flown by the carrier to the ultimate recipient's hospital in a distant place but I doubt if that heart would survive for such a length of time. I would expect the DNA rejection system to irretrievably damage the heart-cells, apart from the need to disconnect and reconnect twice with different DNAs. But, who knows what future surgery may be capable of?

You say that the fetus is alive. I reason it all depends? If you mean alive in a live but unconscious mother's womb I would label that as naturally alive. However, if the fetus is in a mother who has just died, then I reason that like an organ-transplant the alive yet 'lifeless' fetus would have to be removed quickly and then the crucial moment will arrive. When the doctor delivers the baby from the dead mother's body and not before, we can see if 'life' has indeed entered and the baby's own DNA has been given 'life' to start the new unique human on its way, breathing is one sign.

May be we could compare the fetus's DNA to a new dry car-battery awaiting acid. Before birth the fetus's DNA was using the mother's "electricity" and at birth 'life' is like acid entering the DNA's own new dry battery, which then instantly jumps to life.

The instant of 'life's arrival could be difficult to pinpoint scientifically because I can envisage that nature may well have instilled 'life' before the doctor produced the evidence for all to see. A fetus's heartbeat is no evidence because so long as the fetus is umbilically connected, the fetus's heart beats nicely, has its own rhythm set by its own DNA, using the mother's "electricity" but not the mothers DNA and a dead mother's "electricity" may serve for a while just like the alive cells in an organ transplant.

28. The Pagan Christ

Comment #105858 by Downunder on January 2, 2008 at 1:38 am

Goldy, I've read your 291. Sleep well, see you tomorrow. I'll have to explain more.

29. The Pagan Christ

Comment #105850 by Downunder on January 2, 2008 at 1:15 am

Goldy
My reasoning is based on my understanding that DNA does not have 'life' until it is in a cell that is alive.

My arm is alive but does not have 'life'. An organ removed from a fresh corpse has lost its 'life' but can be kept alive artificially for a limited period to be transplanted into a different body to partake in its 'life'.

My indoctrinated religious beliefs say that a new "soul" is created at the moment of conception, but now I find that nonsense. IMO 'life' does not enter until at birth.

A fetus is indeed alive but....as part of the mother, like her arm. A premature-baby or a caesarean-birth-baby fits my reasoning because like an organ transplant the baby can be kept alive for a while but it must receive 'life' soon to indeed benefit from the subsequent medical attention.

30. The Pagan Christ

Comment #105833 by Downunder on January 1, 2008 at 11:34 pm

re287#105668walk. I suggest (not as a biologist but with my logical mind of a retired civil engineer) that life must come from and go back to somewhere. The bio-science experts argue about DNA creating life. I have questioned on the "Synthetic DNA" thread the difference between creating life and re-programming established life cells, and no one corrected me. The chemical parts are recycled but bio-scientists appear to ignore that while life enters each living thing at some stage, science is very quiet about where life goes to. Please don't confuse the issue by bringing supernatural or intelligent design or God into it; I don't believe in fairy tales.

31. The Pagan Christ

Comment #105148 by Downunder on December 30, 2007 at 6:02 pm

Re284#104922notsobad. Yes, I think our DNA does program the brain to control the growth and the maintenance of our body, auto-controls such parts as heartbeat and breathing, at-will control of limb muscles, etc.

I am not a biologist but I have been given to understand that the zygote starts with its own unique DNA from the new intertwining of the parental DNA and thus develops into a unique fetus. If the fetus is not still-born and has received 'life' at birth, its own DNA program will direct its cells to further develop, but, from now-on the new-born will be subject to the influences of the environment in which it finds itself born.

All this is my own reasoning developed from thinking about why our world is so bad. I became increasingly dissatisfied with religious fanatics, right-to-lifers, anti-abortionists, anti-stem cell, anti-euthanesia, anti-deathpenalty and all the 'thank God' cliques.

32. The Pagan Christ

Comment #105136 by Downunder on December 30, 2007 at 4:57 pm

re 283#104904the great teapot, pleased to see that I do not write in 'double dutch'; and "een zalig uiteinde" to you!

33. The Pagan Christ

Comment #104821 by Downunder on December 29, 2007 at 2:23 pm

Don_Quix. Thank you for your clear and constructive hints.

34. The Pagan Christ

Comment #104567 by Downunder on December 28, 2007 at 7:38 pm

re250&252krisking

You apply blind faith with your free will. If you consider yourself to have above average intelligence (as distinct from a sheep mentality!), I suggest you use it.

First step is: open your eyes. 2nd is; don't believe anything you hear or read until you have given it due thought and consideration. 3rd Now think about the environment in which you have found yourself to be born. Are you a product of that? Do you want to be?

If you are satisfied with the world around you, it is your free will to carry-on with whatever your chosen path is. However, if you feel by indoctrination that you must follow a missionary path and wave some storybooks in front of the innocents, then you show disrespect for the free will of your fellow humans.

I can hear you scream "the bible is not a story book!". Read the 3rd point again. If you had been born and indoctrinated in a Muslim world............., or in a jungle in the back blocks Africa..........? Do you get the drift?
Please do keep posting and discussing so that we all *will* think.

Why am I doing this time-taking posting? Because I find that we live in a bad world, man-made bad, nothing to do with God; if it had, it would surely be a better world. Is that PROOF for you? It has been for me dropping my faith.

My objective here is to encourage listening and discussion with the prime objective to foster peace, starting at home, in widening circles from there. Iraq is far away from home.

When posting my previous one I was astounded how fast most of you move. I am not a typist, worse still, I think slowly and long, have always had difficulty to construct sentences and to find the precise words, which severely handicaps me amongst all you fast workers! Just a poor excuse.

35. The Pagan Christ

Comment #104552 by Downunder on December 28, 2007 at 6:32 pm

Re248#104175notsobad. Thanks for your 2 ref 's, and yes I then did visit "wiki/energy" but found it not relevant for me. I just looked at that video you now gave and (not the video but the fact that you gave it) the penny dropped that you have missed my meaning of "life" as confirmed when I found lower down your "What do you mean by life....".
I'll try and explain. Assuming we are on the same wavelength and have put aside all the various God concepts, I suggest that you now also put aside (not everything, keep an open mind) whatever has been indoctrinated. That is hard, be aware of self-delusion; maintain due respect for scientific facts. My meaning of life in my posts hinges on the difference between "alive" and "life". My arm is alive, a (healthy) fetus is alive, a heart for a transplant is alive,...etc. Now, think about it for yourself, do these have "life", as used for breathing, moving, intellect, conscience, free will,....etc.? "Alive" is from my dimensions, not an abstract concept. "Life" is an abstract, is not from my dimensions. Could we say that hot and cold are in our dimension, while love and fear are not?

36. The Pagan Christ

Comment #104160 by Downunder on December 28, 2007 at 3:03 am

Re243#104100 Radesq I imagine you'll agree that no-one-on-earth can know what happens to our abstract "life" on death. The various religions indoctrinate their followers with their traditional preachings; souls, re-incarnation, etc. I guess that the average human being wants to live a good and honest life and seeks simple guidelines from a spiritual leader, who in turn seeks his guidance from an established religious organisation where tradition invented such things as a soul which is very handy to explain any mystery. People want things like that.
I have pushed aside any religious thoughts by mentally erasing the word God whenever it occurred and replaced it by the word "life". Listening to a sermon or reading anything with the word God and replacing God by life, made nonsense of such religious thoughts. I have specifically noted in my post 240 that we cannot know if there is an afterlife at all. But for myself I reason that our human ideas and questions about the afterlife such as you raised are not likely to be applicable in an infinite dimension.

37. The Pagan Christ

Comment #104101 by Downunder on December 27, 2007 at 10:12 pm

Re211#103817Steve Zara. Thanks for that. Your last 2 sentences "....no natural intent for.....": please correct me if I'm wrong, but are specific male and female body parts not intended and shaped for particular functions? Of course their actual use is guided by the free will of the individuals.

38. The Pagan Christ

Comment #104095 by Downunder on December 27, 2007 at 9:58 pm

Re205#103803Shuggy one negative after another, and while I intentionally avoid names you could not stop yourself to vent your nous. It made me wonder if you are a journo; bingo! The only part that entertained me was your version of a papal sermon but do you realise, "things said in jest"? I wished that all non believers/atheists would aim all their relevant discussions towards obtaining such admissions to reach some common ground and stop fighting!
Re your "Nature does not have intentions", think about it: why is the shape of our nose the way it is; an intended purpose?

39. The Pagan Christ

Comment #104089 by Downunder on December 27, 2007 at 9:36 pm

Re203#103799Don_Quix; agreed and I wonder if the God problem is caused by the apparently widespread human inclination to image a God as having human traits with supernatural powers. In fact, it is rather simplistic to think that we could comprehend a God when we have no divine streak in our DNA to enter the Godly dimension. I have come to a conclusion (while remaining open to better ideas) that the "average" human being has by nature a mass mentality, "man is like sheep". Those who are above average appear to be greedy rather than philanthropically inclined, like playing musical chairs; the bullies are grinners but in the end there is only one winner in the group. Whatever origins we may have evolved from, at our birth each one of us received its own individual life from which our unique individual DNA then developed our intelligence to guide our free will. A concept of God is not instilled with life at birth; God is a human invention imposed by our environment after birth. Indeed history shows different God concepts in different societies. Why have God-concepts eventuated at all? Your guess is as good as mine but one thing is obvious: man has an in-built respect for nature. Most of us just accept what we are brought-up-with to believe. Some feel a need to explain things for themselves, an inborn curiosity; a few go further and try to prove why things are so, science developed.
May I repeat here my reasoning posted in some other RD threads.
We are surrounded by the facts of life; clear and factual evidence of something beyond our dimensions. Life enters all living things at birth and instills different levels of intelligence, ability and responsibility. On death life separates from the body, leaving it to completely disintegrate into its original elements, visible earthly matter, making it rather obvious that the body has only a temporary function, of no further use in the universe, as distinct from life. What is life? We can sense when life enters a new-born at birth and when life departs at death and when something has life. I reason that life must come from "somewhere" and depart to "somewhere". A childish mind believing in magicians may say that things appear from "nowhere" and just disappear to "nowhere". Life is not nothing and, because life is a scientific fact I reason that life is from a dimension beyond that of our dimensions. Life is an abstract comprising the abstracts such as: beauty, love, anger, fear, pain, pleasure, belief, etc., each of which are facts. We experience them as feelings. In my reasoning, life comes into and disappears from our consciousness by temporarily changing from the to us incomprehensible totality of the infinite universe, into an abstract dimensionless, but nevertheless factual presence. Why that is so, I cannot answer because life is beyond our comprehension and intelligence. At the instant of death when "life" departs from our body and "disappears" into whatever dimension in our surrounding universe, all may become clear to us. What will happen after death is pure conjecture. The human invention of an "afterlife" just serves religions as a (somewhat useful) big stick.
A load of bullocks? Any of you who throw that at me should do me the courtesy of posting your explanation of life, putting me on a better path. If you have nothing to offer, why post?

40. The Pagan Christ

Comment #103798 by Downunder on December 26, 2007 at 10:32 pm

Re 183#3103730 Steve Zara. I admire your contributions on the various threads and appreciate your generally wise and calming contents, but every now & again you show to have suffered greatly from being gay. I, as a now fallen Catholic, apologise for the holier-than-thou attitude of the Pope and Cardinals and can only offer the feeble excuse that they are "in the boat, have to row in tune or must jump overboard to swim for their life". One of the major events that made me leave the church, after say 75 years of indoctrination, was when our Melbourne Bishop (now Cardinal in Sydney) on live TV, refused communion to all who wore rainbow sashes during a Sunday morning mass in St Pats Cathedral. The Bishop throwing stones while sitting in a glass house! He must think that he is God to condemn people in public. I accept that gay people have to live their lives, like all of us, within moral bounds. If you don't mind answering, I have wondered for a long time, do you feel that gay is normal or do you feel that it is a natural affliction, say like having to wear glasses or some such? If the latter, and assuming that your surrounding society treats you like any other citizen, do you accept that afflictions impose some limitations, I can think of let's say legal marriage, which seems essentially in conflict with its natural intent? Rest assured, the churches must feel the pressure of so many leaving, the hierarchy will wake up to the fact that "round-earth" concepts work fine and that gay people are not devils. The news media distort the truth by using the easy pickings of bad apples in the society to make news.

41. The Pagan Christ

Comment #103792 by Downunder on December 26, 2007 at 9:51 pm

Re post196#103766 notsobad. I thank you for your 4 ref's, had a quick look but found the much published usual brainwashing opinions based on some facts such as "...very likely due to the observed increase in human greenhouse gas..." and ".....a 90% probability...". Computers are wonderful gadgets but the fact remains: rubbish in, rubbish out. I'll never forget the publicity to blame the flatulence of cows, ROFLOL!
Before I give my opinions herebelow, please note: I concur that in its own interests, mankind would be wise to minimise pollution! I have little respect for politicians who use quick self-serving motives; e.g. our State's power supply has come for many years now mostly from a group of steam driven generating stations. A very dirty burning process using an abundant local supply of browncoal fires their boilers. That local area always has a pollution cloud visible for miles around but the locals don't dare complain because it is part of their daily work environment. The politicians jump on the bandwagon about Global Warming but do nothing about allocating their abundant public funds to up-date/clean-up that burning process. The operation of our sewage treatment systems leaves much to be desired, suffers from bureaucratic incompetence due to lacks politicians. Now back to that Global Warming propaganda.
I accept that the interpretation of recent meteorological records appear to indicate new peaks being set in the relevant archives but I also accept other scientific records which indicate enormous climate changes having occurred long before man's existence. As an ex-catholic I have become very conscious of brainwashing, like the popularised reasoning about the earth's finite natural resources. Of course it is a fact that we live on the defined shape of a globe but the whole truth is that we do not know how much fuel there is apart from what other, as yet unknown types of fuel there may be. The oil companies are the *experts*, I do not believe their self-serving propaganda. I doubt that man is able to disastrously affect the global climate, I wish we could because then we could make it rain when & where we need it. We have become pretty good at weather forecasting but is it 100% reliable? We are mere human beings, have not been very long on this globe, have got only a miniscule lifespan, have we made any significant contribution to the universe sofar? We have as yet not even managed to live in peace, to show mutual respect and support the needy on our globe.
Let us get with it, minimise our own personal pollution before telling others to do so, stop blaming all&sundry in the rest of the world, push your own politicians to remove the pollution pie in our own the sky.

42. The Pagan Christ

Comment #103759 by Downunder on December 26, 2007 at 5:46 pm

Re 176#103716al-rawandi's "can't conceive of a better society." I can think of many improvements. State ownership of essential services: hospitals, water supply, gas, electricity, transport. Wealth: limit CEO's remuneration packages, taxation to limit immorally high incomes. Commerce: eliminate false advertising, excessive profits, screwing suppliers and workers. News media: stop creating news when there is none, stop biassed and emotional reporting. Political bandwagons: Global Warming man-made; where is the proof? (I am not condoning pollution!). Banks: provide service. Cartels are illegal, not OPEC? Religions: preach common sense not dogmas, listen and talk to others', stop fighting, find common ground. TV and entertainment industry: lift the standard.

43. The Pagan Christ

Comment #103679 by Downunder on December 26, 2007 at 1:48 pm

Diacanu I have sent you a pm, please acknowledge receipt.

44. Blair converts to Catholicism

Comment #102918 by Downunder on December 23, 2007 at 11:39 pm

re Epicure's post 11, #102468. It makes me wonder: why so many negative reactions? Whether or not we personally like or dislike Blair, he does have above average abilities and powerful connections. Prof. R.D. could use Blair's networking to arrange a business lunch with the Pope for the 3 of them to discuss the mutual advantages of overhauling the Catholic dogmas with the overall objective of creating some common ground for the world's 4 major religions. Shouldn't we all try to improve the world for ourselves and for our children, rather then just keep throwing stones?

45. Religious Freedom in Military Questioned

Comment #101117 by Downunder on December 19, 2007 at 11:10 pm

Diacanu re my post 21 and your 24 in the "Synthetic DNA" thread, I'm drafting a reply and will send it to you as a pm; it will take me a couple of days. I'll let you know; via whichever RD thread will then show your most recent post.

46. Synthetic DNA on the Brink of Yielding New Life Forms

Comment #99810 by Downunder on December 17, 2007 at 3:32 pm

re John Done's post 14, are you misunderstanding something here, or am I wrong? DNA is *not* life. DNA is a "program" which (as yet) is planted in a life cell to "re-direct" the cell's "life" into a (hopefully) specific direction. Could a relevant expert please verify?

47. THE FOUR HORSEMEN - Available Now on DVD!

Comment #99408 by Downunder on December 16, 2007 at 3:13 pm

re Jayday's 195, thank you. I've googled him now. He appears to be on leave. My email will be awaiting his return.

48. THE FOUR HORSEMEN - Available Now on DVD!

Comment #99204 by Downunder on December 15, 2007 at 11:15 pm

Having quickly read thru these 163 posts sofar, many posters critisise Hitchens opinions etc, duly praise the 4 men and Josh (I add my thanks) but I did not see anyone mention the question (at about 8 min. in the 1st hour) from Prof Dennett: how to trigger the mind of believers away from their beliefs?
Prof D. made me wonder if that is what I, as a "fallen" Catholic, may have been doing gradually since last year. After a long life of religious indoctrination, it takes a lot of soul searching and questioning of religious preaching to get a different perspective. Also the fact that Rome is only one of many religions in a world riddled with beliefs from the proverbial year dot, made me think why? I looked for a common thread in all beliefs and the answer came: life. From then on, whenever the word God appeared, I replaced it by LIFE. It instantly convinced me that God has little to do with running the show. I would like to have Prof D's comment on that, but I doubt that he will read these posts. First I'll await some hopefully constructive posts. (Could not help to find that several of such posters travel on these threads very incognito.)

49. Where Is Atheism When Bad Things Happen?

Comment #99125 by Downunder on December 15, 2007 at 5:00 pm

BMMcArdle's 162; does the existence of life, the *essence* in each of us, require documentary evidence?
steve99's 164; flows of energy maintains it, but what is it?
Not like Fire, which is visible flame from burning gases; extinguish the flames and the gases will fizzle out, etc.
Don_Quix's 161 does not appreciate a background to one's train of thoughts, may like to avoid the total picture and prefer endless arguing about details of whether Gods exist. I have put God aside because I was taught about, but have not been impressed with, his almightiness. I leave the door open for RD and his mates, in case they find godly evidence.

50. Where Is Atheism When Bad Things Happen?

Comment #98882 by Downunder on December 14, 2007 at 8:18 pm

Re Don_Quix's post157, even with your own test kit all you would prove would be that whichever element or bacterium you tested for was present in some density, the concentration of which complying or not complying with some standard. It would not be proof positive that the next glass of water will be safe to drink. At any rate, I only wanted to make the point that it is easier to prove presence, even of God, than absence. All that, is really side tracking about my thoughts on life. LIFE, the most important thing on earth, has over all the generations only been getting attention by various kinds of religions. I think that we have learned a lot from our previous generations and that this generation could do better than just arguing, making war, or as on these RD sites discuss to outwit each other rather than producing some thoughts built on the data gathered so far.
I have asked myself and raised in several RD threads the question where life comes from and goes to. Sofar the only answers have been: life comes passed-on by the parents at conception and on death life disappears. Those answers are childish just like religious answers. It is about time that science produced some facts, not just for science sake but because it will wake up the religious fanatics; like the earth is not flat. Life is not "nothing", life is an observable fact when present and its sudden absence can be observed.
I know, I'm fighting windmills, but someone 's gotta do it.