1. Messiah

Comment #52438 by Thor the Mariner on June 27, 2007 at 3:15 am

Jazz X - To dismiss Derren's act as "lazy trickery" is very ignorant. The guy has worked incredibly hard at developing and perfecting his techniques for years.

"The only people he's hoodwinking are the so-called atheists above me. You're supposed to question nonsense!"

And I do. If you have seen much of Derren's stuff he reguarly reveals the techniques he uses. His most common trick is to drop in relevant words into conversation that plant ideas into people's heads. I dont think he uses actors and i still safely consider myself an athiest.

The "dreadful Heist gig" as you call it explained his techniques throughout the show. He carefully selected just 4 people from a larger group that had already been pre-selected as potentially suseptable and it didnt work on all of those. He bombarded them for days with very specific information and suggestions to get them to act as they did. If it was fake then it's a shame but i don't think any kind of leap of faith is required to belive it was genuine.

Derren never disguises the fact that his skills work best on a certain type of person. The fact that you think you would be immune from his techniques does not mean everyone is.

2. Messiah

Comment #52383 by Thor the Mariner on June 27, 2007 at 12:10 am

Im delighted this has been posted here. I am a massive fan of Derren and have a great respect for the way he has taught himself all those techniques and is a unique showman. Even more pleasing is the way he exposes charlatans from every walk of life.

However, in a similar way that religious people refuse to listen to logic and reason, i have seen people disregard Derren's actions and continue to insist the likes of Colin Fry are genuine as "there is no way he could have known that". Anyway, keep up the entertainment Derren!

3. God Hates the World

Comment #52024 by Thor the Mariner on June 26, 2007 at 12:55 am

Apemanblues - you have made the classic error in thinking that the believer will give straight answers like that.

A more common conversation would be:

Sceptic: Yet, you accept that most of the world is not Christian, right?
Believer: Yes
Sceptic: So most of the world is not 'saved', right?
Believer: Stalin was evil, errr... most of our laws are based on Jewish laws, err... evolution is only a theory... etc etc etc

4. God Hates the World

Comment #52017 by Thor the Mariner on June 26, 2007 at 12:35 am

Mr Flea

I actually think you have a point in part of what you say. I think some of the aggressive and offensive stuff posted is not helpful to debate. Also, this tiny group of small minded bigots singing this sickening stuff have had way too much exposure. I think they've already appeared on a couple of documentaries and they are not typical of mainstream religious views.

But I do think we have a responsibility to expose dangerous hatred like this piece by piece. Ignoring it to protect other religions is not acceptable.

It is getting tiresome to hear the "i dont do what they do so you cant call it religion" type argument. The Phelps could not make it any clearer that they are acting directly due to their religious beliefs.

I also feel slightly embarrassed for you that you keep trying to undermine atheists by using religious terms like 'believers' and 'followers'. You (correctly) think that making atheism appear to be like a religion will make it seem less credible. What does that say about you real views on religion?

5. His word: Attacking religion can seem like breaking a butterfly on a wheel

Comment #51834 by Thor the Mariner on June 25, 2007 at 8:01 am

Yes, I do disagree. The desire to survive is the factor i am really getting at. It's far more primal than our inclination towards philosphy.

6. His word: Attacking religion can seem like breaking a butterfly on a wheel

Comment #51831 by Thor the Mariner on June 25, 2007 at 7:46 am

I simply mean that the promise of eternal life is a more important factor than others such as belonging to a group.

7. His word: Attacking religion can seem like breaking a butterfly on a wheel

Comment #51826 by Thor the Mariner on June 25, 2007 at 6:39 am

"Most people live most of their lives without thinking about their death"

But I think religion plays a huge part in enabling some people to do this! I dont think living past death is at the forefront of every religious person's mind every day. However, i do think that the belief in an afterlife allows some people to not worry about the issue again. Once they buy in to religion then their fear of death disappears and they try not to let it come back.

I am in total agreement with you in the "group mentality" argument as well as the order & hierachy angle. I also think our desire to have explanations for everything means that the all encompassing answer of 'God did it' is very appealing to them, particularly if they struggle to grasp scientific concepts.

However, i dont think these are the things that are as relevant when people's faith is challenged. Giving up their faith is equivalent to giving up eternal life in their own minds.

8. His word: Attacking religion can seem like breaking a butterfly on a wheel

Comment #51818 by Thor the Mariner on June 25, 2007 at 6:04 am

Fair enough Doc.

To be honest i think i might be going a little easy on Baddiel as I still have fond memories of Mary Whitehouse Experience and Fantasy Football.

I think people are annoyed that he is getting paid for writing a few thoughts down without giving it the same kind of attention that the militant atheists on this site do (i include myself in that).

9. His word: Attacking religion can seem like breaking a butterfly on a wheel

Comment #51812 by Thor the Mariner on June 25, 2007 at 5:26 am

I have to say that the article is quite enjoyable and im surprised that it has generated so much criticism. It is a light hearted piece and the fact that the first half consists of (humourous) examples of him being behind the times is a bit of as clue that this isn't fiercely centred around serious religious debate.

However, i know Baddiel is an intelligent guy and to be honest he hits the nail square on the head with religion enabling people "to pretend we never die".

The desire to survive has obvious survival qualities. Religion gives people the belief that they will survive forever. The fact that people cling to something with that promise should not be a surprise. An obvious point perhaps but one that seems to be overlooked.

Furthermore his butterfly analogy is bang on. He is saying that the arguments for religion are so weak that arguing against them is almost too easy, yet the "superstructure" of religion seems almost indestructable as there are billions of people who just will not listen to reason and facts.