1. God Hates the World

Comment #52647 by Jackson Ayres on June 27, 2007 at 3:55 pm

Wee Flea,

I will say that I would not feel comfortable posting some of the rude & uncivil comments directed your way. However:
1. It seems a lot of the animosity comes from a history I'm unaware of
2. Rudeness from others doesn't bolster your arguments in any real way
3. I don't feel a need to apologize for others' behavior, or see it as diminishing a perceived "atheist cause."

You seem pretty shaken & angry about some of the reactions you've provoked, but I wonder why you're so surprised. Surely you're aware of the site you're posting on, and that you're the minority. I applaud you having the determination to come here to participate, but please remember you're horribly outnumbered. If I went and posted on a Christian site, I may (or may not) be greeted with profanity, but I'd probably be politely told I was going to Hell or, almost defintely, told condescendingly that I was being "prayed for." For me, that would be more insulting than told to "fuck off," or whatever.

I think the biggest problem with having a productive, civil conversaton can be found within one sentence of yours:

"Even the devil quoted to the Bible when he sought to tempt Jesus in the wilderness!"

What's more, with the irony clearly lost on you, the above quote almost directly followed this:

"What I find extraordinary here is your simplistic naivete."

Please understand that, for rationale, free-thinking people, it is *extremely* difficult to maintain a polite discourse with someone who HONESTLY BELIEVES that a half-man/half-god (yet who is God) born to a virgin with magical healing and transformative powers was tempted by the physical manifestation of evil, a former servant of the omnipotent/omniscent creator of everything who's inexplicably been here (everywhere) forever, found within everything (presumably, also evil), and listens to our private thoughts.

How can one have a rational discussion that does not deteroiate into insults when such nonsense forms the core of your worldview?

You must understand that trying to speak to someone who literally believes such stories (or even considers them anything more than pure fiction) is like banging one's head against a wall. If you haven't seen this great article by S. Harris yet, it might help clarify my point. Please check it out:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-witchcraft_b_53865.html

Lastly, in response to your prior rebuttal of my point that secularism is, in larege measure, responsible for your distinction between "your faith" and WBC: Well, if it's not secularism, than what is it? Harris has a wonderful point when he says that, if you actually read the books (Bible, Qu'ran), God is *not* a moderate. The liberalized, modern version of Christianity that you clearly represent cannot be a result of reading the books more closely and or taking them more seriously. They can only be the product of a more secular, rational (and civilized) mode of thought that questions and challenges the dangers, contradictions, and outright fallacies of religious belief.

~Jack

2. God Hates the World

Comment #51932 by Jackson Ayres on June 25, 2007 at 3:05 pm

If I remember his phrasing correctly, Christopher Hitchens described the late Jerry Falwell as a "conscious charlatan," who didn't truly believe what he preached. Many believe the same description could be given to Phelps--his agenda is mysterious, but it seems more political than religious. In fact, there are persistent rumors (but nothing more than rumors) that he is a closet homosexual, and his entire campaign is nothing more than an example of "protesting too much."

I posted initially to state, for the record, that this sort of nonsense is far from accepted by the majority of Kansas, even the devout ones. Common sense can also lead us to agree with Wee Flea: that this is hardly representative of most Christian Americans. At least the *virulence* of it is not representative. Clearly, the majority of (at least voting) Christian Americans do have a big problem with homosexuality. However, they tend to have a "kinder, gentler" approach than the WBC in spreading their hatred.

I think Dr. Dawkins (or whoever did so) is absolutely justified in posting this video. Even if Phelps is a cynical manipulator, rather than a true believer, many others on this board have pointed out that he has scripture to justify his rhetoric. The Phelps' aren't using a different version of the Bible than any other Christian in this country. The WBC is Christianity stripped of the influence of clear-headed secularism. All religious persons who see this clip and proudly declare that it isn't "their faith," have atheists & secularists to thank for the distinction.
~Jack

3. God Hates the World

Comment #51882 by Jackson Ayres on June 25, 2007 at 1:15 pm

Fedler,

Yeah, Wikipedia got it right.

I grew up attending a Methodist church in Topeka (though pretty much everyone in my nuclear family is now a declared atheist, or so "moderate"/agnostic that they're practically an atheist). Anyway, our pastor would frequently criticize WBC in his sermons. I can't say about Baptist congregations, but, as you discovered, they aren't an "official" congregation. The patriarch, Fred Phelps, is a de-barred lawyer. He created the church to gain tax-exempt status, and I believe all of the members of the church are part of the Phelps family.

4. God Hates the World

Comment #51874 by Jackson Ayres on June 25, 2007 at 12:52 pm

Dr Dawkins & others,

I've been visiting this site for some time, but after seeing this post felt compelled to finally register. I grew up in Topeka, KS (where Westboro Baptist Church is located), although I haven't lived there since I left for college in 2000. Kansas does not have the best reputation for free-thinking, although I will say it is not as bad as many of those who've never been there may think. Still, please be aware that this group IN NO WAY accurately represents Topeka or the rest of Kansas. Other Kansas Christians (for all their MANY faults) in no way support these lunatics. In fact, their disgusting tactics and rhetoric have actually made many religious people in Kansas more compassionate and sympathetic toward homosexuals than they otherwise would be. Thanks for listening & I look forward to participating in the ongoing conversation here.
~Jack