1. Christopher Hitchens on BookTV

Comment #67795 by Jacob on September 4, 2007 at 8:37 pm

Did anybody happen to write down the list of books Hitchen's has enjoyed?

I was able to get the author list as:

• George Eliot
• George Orwell
• Martin Amis
• Kingsley Amis
• Ian McEwan
• Salman Rushdie
• Colm Tóibín
• Karl Marx
• Richard Dawkins
• P.G. Wodehouse
• Evelyn Waugh
• Paul Scott
• James Fenton
• James Joyce
• Conor Cruise O'Brien
• Vladimir Nabokov
• Saul Bellow

2. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9936 by Jacob on November 26, 2006 at 2:13 pm

DingoDave,

I see what you're saying, but you're still avoiding the main fact here: you believe you have a better understanding of the Scripture than men and women who are paid to study it. You swear by your "studies" when they are extremely biased in one direction, so much that you visit and recommend sites like "Fundies Say the Darndest Things!" (that one still blows mind...). By the way, Richard Carrier's main arguments can be found on www.INFIDELS.com and you accuse my references of being biased? That's comical! You deny that Christians faced much persecution at all when evidence points the other way. You deny God is a loving God when all the evidence points against you. You seem to ignore the overwhelming evidence against your agruments so I am not going to continue this discussion because it will lead us nowhere. It takes alot of assuming and speculation to give your arguments any ground. I'm sorry if the Wake Forest was "biased" but every other source I have used has been unbiased. And my point on that is these professor's are paid to research and study the Bible, thats it! But the study you do in your free time has proven wrong everything they say? This is unbeliveable. The Bible states how Jesus wasn't concerned with riches and neither were His disciples, but you say they were. Jesus said the two greatest commandments are love, you say no that everything surrounds Hell. Historical documnets besides the Bible speak of Christian persectuion, you deny it happened and that it was exaggerated. You're so anti-Christian it's hard to take anything you say seriously DingoDave! Everything is a conspiracy in the Christian faith evidently. But like I said, I'm not going to continute this discussion. I have stated what the Bible says and how it refutes your claims against it. And whether or not you want to believe it DingoDave, God does love you! Although we have had disagreements, I am pleased to have been able to meet someone new and discuss important topics with you. I will be praying that stuff goes well for you and your family sir and I wish you the best, thanks again for the conversation!

3. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9719 by Jacob on November 25, 2006 at 4:49 pm

DingoDave,

Jesus was walking on the water and called Peter out to Him. Peter started to but got nervous and doubted. When the disciples were with Christ on the boat and they thought they were going to drown in the storm, they were terrified and Jesus rebuked them for doubting Him. When the disciples tried to drive out demons they couldn't and Jesus said it was because they still lacked in faith. I am by no means helping to make your point. Doubting is a common attribute especially when it is something miraculous it would appear. Yes they had seen Him do amazing things, but to raise yourself from the dead? Needless to say this is a little tougher of a feat than feeding thousands of people. Jesus did tell the disciples what was going to happen, but they couldn't totally grasp it. From the perspective of history it's easy for us to say, "Oh if it was me I would of totally gotten it!" just like you have. I don't think it's that easy for you to put yourself in the shoes of a disciple in that time and say what you would or wouldn't of done.

So you think Jesus didn't expect to fail? Hmmm…most scholars who again are paid to study the Bible as their occupation would disagree with you. When Jesus spoke of bringing a kingdom he was referring to a spiritual kingdom. This is most likely why Judas handed Him over, to "force the hand of God into action". The idea is that Jesus had been doing His work for over three years and there was still no sign or intention that He was ever going to challenge Rome and be the militaristic Messiah that many hoped He would be, defeating Rome and restoring Israel to it's former state. In fact, when questioned, He told people to give to Caesar what was Caesar's and give to God what was God's (speaking of taxes). That doesn't sound like a man bent on overthrowing Rome and Caser to me, does it to you?

Jesus and His disciples were not concerned with money. They may have had some little money that was given to them to help them out, but not much money by any means. They did not care about their own material wealth. In Jesus' famous Sermon on the Mount He says, "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal." Matthew 6:19. When the rich man wanted to follow Jesus, he was told by Christ this: "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:20-24. Notice Jesus didn't say give your money to us, He said give it to the poor. And let's read on to hear what the disciples said about their possessions: "When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, 'Who then can be saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.' Peter answered him, 'We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?'" So they left everything for the sake of Christ, but suddenly they become money obsessed liars who perpetuate a lie to gain something they used to think nothing of?
I have read theories on how they may have mistaken his resurrection, but I will read and research again. And if you recall, every single resource I have used has been the Bible or an unbiased resource such as Wake Forest University's site or Wikipedia.com. I find it very amusing that you direct me to use unbiased sources when you suggest I check out "Fundies Say the Darndest Things!"
He appeared to over 500 people after His resurrection but again, it's in the Bible and you don't trust it so I can't discuss that point with you.
Why wasn't Christianity wiped out? Believers held secret meetings. The Ichthys, or fish, was a sign early Christians used to scratch on rocks on in the ground to show where a meeting would be held. Here is more information on it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_fish#Christian. This is one way to show how believers lived on during persectuion. Also, I'm interested in finding out your unbiased resource as to reliablity that Christians weren't facing Roman persecution. I have heard quite the contrary. Nero blamed the great fire of Rome on Christians. Christians were told to burn incense to Roman gods or face imprisonment, exile, or execution. Here is the section from Wikipedia: "The first documented case of imperially-supervised persecution of the Christians in the Roman Empire begins with Nero (37-68). In 64 A.D., a great fire broke out in Rome which destroyed vast portions of the city and economically devastated the Roman population. Nero, whose sanity had long been in question, was widely suspected of having intentionally set the fire himself. In his Annals, Tacitus, states that "to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace" (Tacit. Annals XV, see Tacitus on Jesus). By implicating the Christians for this massive act of arson, Nero successfully capitalized on the already-existing public suspicion of this religious sect and, it could be argued, exacerbated the hostilities held toward them throughout the Roman Empire. Forms of execution used by the Romans included systematic murder, crucifixion, and the feeding of Christians to lions and other wild beasts. Tacitus' Annals XV.44 record: "...a vast multitude, were convicted, not so much of the crime of incendiarism as of hatred of the human race. And in their deaths they were made the subjects of sport; for they were wrapped in the hides of wild beasts and torn to pieces by dogs, or nailed to crosses, or set on fire, and when day declined, were burned to serve for nocturnal lights." This continued all the way to the reign of Constantine in 313.
So in conclusion, I'm not sure where you get the idea that Christians weren't really persectued. I'm pretty sure I could find that information on the same site that I could learn about how the Holocaust never really happened either! And the idea that the apostles were money hungry? I have no idea where you can even play around with that notion considering it goes against their beliefs.

4. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9699 by Jacob on November 25, 2006 at 3:31 pm

DingoDave,

I didn't suggest the dictionaries ae wrong did I? I said that he brings punishment on people who sinned. No need to re-read your comment, I saw it the first time. And like I said, not all translations have "evil" but instead "disaster".

5. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9691 by Jacob on November 25, 2006 at 2:54 pm

DingoDave,

He causes and inflicts punishment. If you don't pull things out of context and read the whole story you see they are punishments for people sinning. And again, in translations it says a better translation would be "disaster" rather than "evil"...but regardless of the translation I get your point. All I'm saying is that if you continue to take things out of context, then you don't see the purpose for these punishments.

6. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9680 by Jacob on November 25, 2006 at 2:18 pm

Exodus 4:11 Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
> This came after Moses told God he was worried and that he shouldn't speak in front of Pharaoh because he was a bad orator. This statement was showing Moses that He was going to be given help by the very person who created speech, so no need to worry. Read everything in Exodus 4:10-12.

Lamentations 3:38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and EVIL come?
> This shows that no matter what happens, whether God or bad, God is not "surprised" by it; He is in control. Read everything in Lamentations 3:30-38 and you will see that, "Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men."

Isaiah 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, and I am the Lord, who does all these things.
> This again shows God's authority over all things both good and bad. Read everything in Isaiah 45:1-8.

Amos 3:6 Does EVIL befall a city, unless Yahweh has done it?
> Once again, God is in control of both. And when you look at it, he doesn't just out of nowhere bring calamity upon these towns, he warns people to change their ways. In the nest verses that were left out it says, "Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets." Nineveh, Sodom and Gomorrah…all of these cities were told to change their sinful ways. Read everything in Amos 3.

Jeremiah 11:11 Therefore, thus says Yahweh, Behold, I am bringing EVIL upon them which they cannot escape; though they cry to me, I will not listen to them.
> God didn't bring disaster without reason. Judah and Jerusalem had broken a covenant with God and turned from him, rejected him, and did evil things. This was a punishment for sin, not just a decision on a whim to harm people. Read everything in Jeremiah 11:1-13

2 Chronicles 34:24 Thus says Yahweh, Behold, I will bring EVIL upon this place and upon its inhabitants, all the curses that are written in the book which was read before the king of Judah.
> Again, the people did evil and this was a punishment for sin. Also, in the verses coming up, God says to those that followed Him and loved Him he would spare from any such disaster since they weren't sinful. Read everything in 2 Chronicles 34:23-28.

2 Kings 21:12 Therefore thus says Yahweh, the god of Israel, Behold, I am bringing upon Jerusalem and Judah such EVIL that the ears of every one who hears of it will tingle.
> Read the verse before it and you will see why God brought disaster. "The LORD said through his servants the prophets: "Manasseh king of Judah has committed these detestable sins. He has done more evil than the Amorites who preceded him and has led Judah into sin with his idols." Not only did he sin worse than the pagan nations, but he led others into sinning also.

I just wanted to show the whole context that these verses come from. When you single them out, it makes it look like God does all of these disastrous things without rhyme or reason, just cause He feels like it. And in many versions, it says a better interpretation is "disaster" instead of evil, but you're right - in the old King James it has it as evil. But again, just providing the context!

7. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9654 by Jacob on November 25, 2006 at 11:57 am

DingoDave,

If Peter and Christ's disicples understood what Christ meant so very well, why would Peter try to stop Christ? Peter said, "Never Lord! This shall never happen to you!" If he really understood everything so well, why would he be telling Jesus that this can't happen? Christ even told Peter that he had in mind the things of men instead of the things of God, showing what his mind was focused on. If he REALLY understood all of this, why would he be freaking out if he knew Christ would return anyways in just three days? Why would they be heartbroken and greatly distressed if they thought He would be raised again on the third day? If I really understood what He meant, I would've been sad that he would be hurt and killed, but overjoyed knowing He would overcome death! See what I mean? Why would they be distressed, heartbroken, and trying to tell Him not to go to Jerusalem if they really understood Him clearly like you say they must have?

Your explanation on why they would follow their own farce religion makes no sense to me. So OK, they did it to make money. They lied to make money. And this lie leads to them being presectued by both the Jewish leaders and the Roman Empire. But they loved money so much, they keep on teaching this false religion even though they had been threatened to stop or be arrested and killed. This doesn't fly! Especially when you consider who the apostles were...they were poor men who followed Christ around for 3 years! They had no values or possessions! So suddenly they decided to go against everything Jesus had taught, fake His ressurection, lie to people to get money from them, all while being put to death and persectued by Jewish leaders and Romans? Hmmm...

8. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9475 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 9:48 pm

Joad,

I'm not looking for meaning outside of my life and that's why I chose Christianity. And to answer your question, no I wouldn't look for another belief. If Christ and God were totally proven to be 100% false than I wouldn't need to find something else to believe in.

9. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9446 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 7:53 pm

Because it is definitely a good one! Hard to imagine what I would of done...

10. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9444 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 7:46 pm

But I do see your point and thank you for putting thought and such into answering the question.

11. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9440 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 7:17 pm

DingoDave,

I see what you were saying. But this is why it would seem the disciples were so confused. They had seen Jesus do the miraculous, and now all of a sudden He was being arrested. They thought He was the coming Messiah who would rescue them and give them independence from the Roman Empire. But now, all of this was crashing down…Jesus was being arrested and was going to be tried to be put to death. They had seen Him do all of these signs and wonders, so why and how could He be arrested? And honestly, it would be hard in that position that Peter was in. Your leader is being tried and condemned to die and now there seems to be a "witch hunt" for His followers. Someone says that you have been seen with Him and that you're one of his followers. You see your leader who is now beaten and bruised and waiting for His death, and you can tell me that you would stand up and say, "Yes! I was with Him!"? That is very honorable DingoDave, because it would definitely be a hard thing to do! And also, it wasn't Peter's ear. Peter cut off one of the guards ears; it was the guard who had his ear healed.

And you have to understand, even though this took place long ago, these disciples were just human like you and me. They had seen their leader do great things, but now He had been beaten and arrested and condemned to death. They were scared and confused! If you were in the same situation, wouldn't you of been confused? I know I would of! But this is what is so miraculous…watching the change in Peter. Jesus is arrested and Peter is denying Christ so that He also won't be condemned to death. After the Resurrection and seeing Jesus alive again, Peter preaches in Jerusalem to the very people who condemned Christ to death with strength, bravery, and passion! The power of the risen Jesus gave Him the confidence to do this. People will die for what they believe to be true, but they won't die for what they know is false. If Peter had never seen a risen Jesus, why would he follow Him all the way to his own eventual death?

But that question doesn't hold water, because I don't believe you give the Bible any historical accuracy if I remember right. But anyways, that is what I believe was going through Peter's head and what would of gone through just about anyone's. I just don't see why early Christians would make things up to "sell" their faith if they knew it to be a farce, especially considering the heavy persecution on the early Christians. Why would they follow their own fabricated lies all the way to the point of death?

12. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9429 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 6:41 pm

Joad,

So you're telling me what I think and what I would do? If there was no God and I knew it for a fact beyond a shadow of a doubt, then no I wouldn't "search" for something else. Don't flaw your agrument by telling me what I will and will not do.

You try to make your beliefs sound grand and noble - "Atheism views man as a full vessel overflowing with meaning." You try to make mine sound empty and hopeless - "Theism views man as an empty vessel seeking fullfillment." In Christianity, I don't view myself as a worthless being that is not special and has no meaning. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I'm so valuable and full of meaning that Jesus died for me! I was bought at a high price, the life of Jesus Christ. I have an ABUNDANCE of meaning in this world!

Don't tell me where debating begins, tell the others on here who wish to falisfy the Bible in order to justify their feelings towards Christianity. And why does it only belong in Vacation Bible School? Does atheism only belong to be debated at certain places and nowhere else?

13. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9417 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 5:41 pm

Joad,

If I had 100% proof that there was no God and Christianity was a myth, and I knew this to be true beyond a shadow of a doubt, I think it's safe to say I wouldn't follow something I knew to be a farce. If you knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that there was a God who loved you and died for you, you wouldn't change your beliefs at all? Well, I mean you would some because if you knew there's a God you can't be an atheist! But I don't really get what your saying I don't think...I'm "debating" because there have been false statements made about the Bible. Is that an OK answer? I wouldn't be "debating" anything if people would just simply not believe in God. That is their choice, even if I wish it were different. It's just the fact that it has been taken to the level of trying to call God an egocentric terrorist that relishes sending people into hellfire I can't take.

14. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9411 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 5:33 pm

Ok well that's good to know! I was worried you meant it in another way...but I do see how being an atheist in our society is difficult for you. But I'm glad to know you haven't been insulted or any of the such by Christians...that is one of the most annoying things that I cannot stand!

15. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9379 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 4:07 pm

befuddled,

OK, I see what you are saying now! Yes, I'm sorry that it is tough for you to live in this world as an atheist. Some of the people and it may even be the majority of people who treat you bad are people who call themselves Christians. This makes me so upset because Christ specifically said, "Love your neighbor as yourslef". Some people get it confused and think it says, "Love fellow Christians as yousrelf, but show disdain for theose who disagree". This is wrong! I believe we are ALL loved and prized by God and He wants us to love all. I am very sorry if you have taken heat or persecution by people who align themselves with Christ...He doesn't condone that AT ALL!

16. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9369 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 3:31 pm

And I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving by the way!

17. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9368 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 3:29 pm

befuddled,

I know you don't believe in Jesus as God or anything like that, but this is the one reason I see that "this one Christian god seems to have stuck". Peter and other Christians were preaching in the streets, procaliming Christ as risen God and Lord. They were arrested and brought before the Sanhedrin. There they continued to say what they had been about Jesus. When the Sanhedrin heard what they had said, they wanted to kill Peter and the apostles. This is what then happened:

"When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. Then he addressed them: 'Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.' His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ."

The whole story in better context is found in Acts 5:17-42. I don't know if this has helped you any, but to Christians, this is why we believe it is still around today. Hope I helped shed light on what we believe sir!

18. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9359 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 3:01 pm

DingoDave,

More info from an unbiased resource as to Jesus and His ministry:

"His teachings centered around unconditional self-sacrificing God-like love for God and for all people. During his sermons, he preached about service and humility, the forgiveness of sin, faith, turning the other cheek, love for one's enemies as well as friends, and the need to follow the spirit of the law in addition to the letter."

Not a thing on Hell is mentioned. This isn't from Billy Graham's website or Joel Osteen, this is from Wikipedia so it doesn't have a biased viewpoint, like the rest of my resources. Here's the rest of the article if you'd like to read it. What I spoke of is included under "Ministry":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#Life_and_teachings.2C_as_told_in_the_Gospels

19. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9352 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 2:45 pm

asdf,

Yes, I think we agree. People will do something and then go to the Scriptures for proof to back them up. Instead, they should look at the Scriptures first to see what it says on the matter before they do something.

20. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9349 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 2:36 pm

DingoDave,

Keep believing what you want. But don't ignore God's love so you can justify your animosity towards Him and Christian beliefs. Honestly, I don't know why we continue to have this conversation...you won't accept what the Bible says over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again - God is love! He says He is, His prophets say He is, His Son says He is, His disciples say He is, His giving of Himself show He is...you just don't want to believe it! I still haven't heard you comment about the Wake Forest class. You are saying you're studies prove wrong what practically every theologian and other people who do this for a job have found out. You're studies can prove wrong men and women who teach at universities on the subject. These professors are wrong; you are right. That is arrogance DingoDave, and you don't have much evidence to support your belief. This is because you ignore the main message of Christ and the Bible! How you can read the Bible and only see a terrorist God who relishes sending people to Hell is beyond me...

21. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9341 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 2:17 pm

asdf,

Sorry, but websites named www.INFIDELS.org and www.GODISIMAGINARY.com don't exactly promote an unbiased viewpoint! Yes, there are some passages that look like contradictions. Most of the time it's because they are taken out of context or it is a very small difference between the two.

Just because God is love doesn't mean He doesn't have other characterisitcs...holy, just, faithful, loving...there is more to Him. And yes, EVERYONE can twist the Scripture so it fits them. Or they can interpret differently. What I was saying is that in saying God is focused on Hell and he enjoys sending people there isn't interepting the Bible differently, it is flat out false.

22. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9338 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 1:57 pm

DingoDave,

You don't get the idea at all...the whole reason we are even saved from Hell is because of God's love for us! And just because you choose to ignore the vast majority of the Bible doesn't make it go away either. And I haven't ignored Hell...in fact in our posts, I agreed Jesus speaks on it. You can't see past your own idea of who God is to the point that you only focus on certain parts of the Bible.

Of course salvation is a main focus of the Bible, because if you don't accept God, then you don't accept what the Bible says with authority. All you see is salvation from Hell, which is a great gift from God, no doubt! But do you know why we were saved from Hell? BECAUSE GOD LOVED US! Please read through these so you can see what is said throughout the whole Bible, Old to New Testament:

Exodus 15:13 "In your unfailing LOVE you will lead the people you have redeemed. In your strength you will guide them to your holy dwelling."
Exodus 34:5-7 "Then the Lord came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the Lord. And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in LOVE and faithfulness, maintaining LOVE to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished."
Leviticus 19:18 "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but LOVE your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."
Numbers 14:19 "In accordance with your great LOVE, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now."
Deuteronomy 7:8 "But it was because the Lord LOVED you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt."
Deuteronomy 23:5 "However, the Lord your God would not listen to Balaam but turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the Lord your God LOVES you."
Psalm 6:4 "Turn, O Lord, and deliver me; save me because of your unfailing LOVE."

Psalm 11:7 "For the Lord is righteous, he LOVES justice; upright men will see his face."

Psalm 33:22 "May your unfailing LOVE rest upon us, O Lord, even as we put our hope in you."

Psalm 57:10 "For great is your LOVE, reaching to the heavens; your faithfulness reaches to the skies."

Psalm 86:5 "You are forgiving and good, O Lord, abounding in LOVE to all who call to you."

Psalm 86:15 "But you, O Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in LOVE and faithfulness."

Proverbs 3:12 "…because the Lord disciplines those he LOVES, as a father the son he delights in."

Proverbs 16:6 "Through LOVE and faithfulness sin is atoned for."

Isaiah 61:8 "For I, the LORD, LOVE justice; I hate robbery and iniquity. In my faithfulness I will reward them and make an everlasting covenant with them."

Lamentations 3:22 "Because of the Lord's great LOVE we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail."

Lamentations 3:32 "Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing LOVE."

Jonah 4:2 "He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in LOVE, a God who relents from sending calamity."

Micah 6:8 "He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to LOVE mercy and to walk humbly with your God."

Matthew 5:44 "But I tell you: LOVE your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."

Matthew 19:19 "Jesus replied, 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and LOVE your neighbor as yourself.' "
Matthew 22:25-30 "One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' Jesus replied: LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: LOVE your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Mark 12:33 "To LOVE him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to LOVE your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Luke 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: LOVE your enemies, do good to those who hate you."

Luke 6:32 "If you LOVE those who LOVE you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' LOVE those who LOVE them."

Luke 6:35 "But LOVE your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked."

John 3:16 "For God so LOVED the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

John 13:1 "It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having LOVED his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his LOVE."

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: LOVE one another. As I have LOVED you, so you must LOVE one another."

John 13:35 "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you LOVE one another."

John 15:9 "As the Father has LOVED me, so have I LOVED you. Now remain in my LOVE."

John 15:17 "This is my command: LOVE each other."

Romans 5:5 "And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his LOVE into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us."

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own LOVE for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Romans 8:35 "Who shall separate us from the LOVE of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?"

Romans 8:39 "…neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the LOVE of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I Corinthians 13 "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not LOVE, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not LOVE, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not LOVE, I gain nothing. LOVE is patient, LOVE is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, and it keeps no record of wrongs. LOVE does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres. LOVE never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and LOVE. But the greatest of these is LOVE."

1 Corinthians 16:14 "Do everything in LOVE."

2 Corinthians 13:11 "Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, and live in peace. And the God of LOVE and peace will be with you."

2 Corinthians 13:14 "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the LOVE of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who LOVED me and gave himself for me."

Galatians 5:6 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through LOVE."

Galatians 5:14 "The entire law is summed up in a single command: "LOVE your neighbor as yourself."
Galatians 2:3-5 "All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great LOVE for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."
Ephesians 3:18 "…may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the LOVE of Christ."
Colossians 3:14 "And over all these virtues put on LOVE, which binds them all together in perfect unity."
2 Thessalonians 2:16 "May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who LOVED us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope."
2 Thessalonians 3:5 "May the Lord direct your hearts into God's LOVE and Christ's perseverance."
1 Timothy 1:14 "The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and LOVE that are in Christ Jesus."
Hebrews 6:10 "God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the LOVE you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them."

Hebrews 12:6 "…because the Lord disciplines those he LOVES, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

James 2:8 "If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "LOVE your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right."

1 Peter 3:8 "Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, LOVE as brothers, be compassionate and humble."
1 Peter 4:8 "Above all, LOVE each other deeply, because LOVE covers over a multitude of sins."

1 John 2:5 "But if anyone obeys his word, God's LOVE is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him."

1 John 3:1 "How great is the LOVE the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him."

1 John 3:11 "This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should LOVE one another."

1 John 3:16 "This is how we know what LOVE is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers."

1 John 3:17 "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the LOVE of God be in him?"

1 John 3:18 "Dear children, let us not LOVE with words or tongue but with actions and in truth."

1 John 4:9 "This is how God showed his LOVE among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him."

1 John 4:10 "This is LOVE: not that we LOVED God, but that he LOVED us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins."

I John 4:16-19 "And so we know and rely on the LOVE God has for us. God is LOVE. Whoever lives in LOVE lives in God, and God in him. In this way, LOVE is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the Day of Judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in LOVE. But perfect LOVE drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in LOVE. We LOVE because He first loved us."

2 John 1:6 "And this is LOVE: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in LOVE."

Jude 1:21 "Keep yourselves in God's LOVE as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life."

Revelation 1:6 "To him who LOVES us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen."

Revelation 3:19 "Those whom I LOVE I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent."

How can you honestly say with sincerity that love is not the main selling point of the Bible? I think just these few of the hundreds of verses in the Scripture denounce your claim. And according to Jesus, the most important thing in the Bible is to love God with your all and to love others. In fact, He says ALL the Law and Prophets hang on those commands. Not a THING about Hell is mentioned!

23. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9313 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 12:04 pm

DingoDave,

Yes, and I'm sure they've taken the very "best" that Christianity has to offer. Everyone focuses on the Ted Haggard's and neglects people like the Rick Warren's who are great men. And you can honestly tell me that there is no Christian bashing on a website called, "Fundies Say the Darndest Things!" If I would visit it, I woulnd't find anything that is bashing Christianity? If I wouldn't than I'm sorry, but it sounds hard to believe considering the title of the page.

Again, you've lost credibility with me. You poke fun at my beliefs because your agruements can't hold up to what the Bible really says. This must be why you result to using that website to act like we're all the same, because you can't defend your stance. I use nothing but the Bible and totally unbiased research. You can't say the same.

So your studying, from an unbiased viewpoint, led to this: "Christianity is all wrong. All that is talked about in here is a God who is evil and only wants to send people to Hell for not trusting in Him. Not only do I not believe in God anymore, but I'm going to make fun and ridicule those who do". This is unreal! You read the Bible, studied it, and discovered that it REALLY says God is a terrorist that relishes in the thought of tormenting people in Hell? Did you read the article I sent to you about the Wake Forest class? I'm sorry, but there is no way that if you read the Bible honestly you will come to the conclusion you did. What kind of church did you attend? Most churches I have ever been to encourage their people to read the Bible for themselves to get closer to God, not to take the pastor for what they say. It is just unbelieveable that you read the Bible and got out of it what you claim to have read. I've said it so many times, but if you don't want to believe in God then don't. You don't have to. He made you so you can choose to believe in Him or not. But don't try to twist the Bible so it fits your belief of who God is.

24. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9306 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 11:25 am

DingoDave,

I don't want to seem like I'm "picking on you", but I am just so confused by what you believe and how it conflicts with the Bible. It goes against everything it says. This is why I am just so confused about the things you say.

25. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9302 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 11:14 am

DingoDave,

If you oppose the idea of Hell so very much and think it is vile, cruel, and detestable - why do you seek it out so much in Scripture? You search for those verses of Scripture that talk of Hell...in fact I believe those are the only kinds of Scripture I've heard you even refer to. I may be wrong, but you seem to dwell on that topic more than any other of the Bible. It just seems odd that someone who can't even imagine the horrors of Hell is at the same time looking for refernces of it and it alone in Scripture, thus ignoring all of the messages of God's love. Hell is not supposed to be the selling point of Christianity...a personal relationship with your Creator who loves you is!

26. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9282 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 10:36 am

asdf,

OK...I'm sorry it just didn't and doesn't make to much sense to me. So sorry again, I was just wanting to make sure I understood you right.

27. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9276 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 9:59 am

DingoDave,

I don't plan on visiting that website. It looks to be just another Christian hate/bashing website, so I don't need to see it. In all of my arguements and stances, I have used nothing but the Bible and unbiased resources, and not once made fun or poked fun at your beliefs. You can't say the same. The best you can do is, "Fundies Say The Darndest Things". So not only did you lose faith in Christ, you enjoy going to sites that seem to bash Him and His followers? Wow...your feelings towards Christians is such that it wouldn't be a shock if you've had a bad history with some. I know you'll say, "Oh all Christian's say if you've lost the faith you must of had a bad encounter with bad Chrisitans" but you didn't just lose faith in God, you now ridicule those who follow Him.

28. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9273 by Jacob on November 24, 2006 at 9:51 am

asdf,

What do you mean? You think he meant everything literatly? I find that very hard to believe. And yes, I think He's ashamed of what some are doing in "His name", but not most Christians. Not everything was metaphors and such for Him. He did teach in parables but not all the time. He said he would be arrested and murdered. He was arrested and murdered. He siad He would rise again. He rose again. Those are literal, not just metaphors or the like. If you study the Bible, you would see that He does want us to take care of each other and our envirnoment, but He also called all of us to do more in life than just that. Just look at the Great Comission in Matthew 28:18-20 for example. "Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Jesus spoke in parables and metaphors at times, but not all the time.

29. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9184 by Jacob on November 23, 2006 at 9:46 pm

Christianity has one "Founding Father" - Jesus. Origen didn't "invent" Christianity. And I didn't say he was wrong in his thinking did I? I said it seemed like Jesus meant it in a different way, considering He didn't even hold his closest of friends to this idea of chopping off body parts. Same with Thomas, who doubting Him. Jesus didn't tell him to cut off his head because he doubted Christ either. Here is information on Origen's castration: "According to some traditions, he carried this to such an extent that, fearing that his position as a teacher of women as well as men might give ground for scandal to the heathen, he followed Matthew 19:12 literally and castrated himself; this action, if accurately reported, was likely partly influenced, too, by his belief that the Christian must follow the words of his Master without reserve. Later in life, however, he saw reason to judge differently concerning his extreme act. The historical accuracy of this supposed castration has been doubted by some scholars. It has been postulated that this story was circulated by Origen's rivals in an effort to lessen his importance or to otherwise sully his reputation." Even he later in life, judged what he did differently. And many Biblical scholars and others see this not as meaning a literal castration, but to live single and not marry.

Yes, he did live closer to Christ than I did...that is a pretty obvious fact. But He lived over a hundred years after Christ (Origen was born around 185). So he lived much further away from Christ than Peter and Thomas. So isn't it more likely that those who were with Christ would have a better understanding of what he meant than somone who lived a hundred years later? I'm just saying it seems that the evidence points to Christ not literatly wanting humans to cut off their limbs.

30. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9134 by Jacob on November 23, 2006 at 6:20 pm

I didn't realize saying that you must of agreed with me since you didn't answer the question was giving you a hard time. Yes, I saw what you said about the early Christians chopping off body parts. I don't believe that was necessary, but they did do it. They took what Jesus said totally 100% literal evidently. I don't know exactly if you were asking a question or a statement. It just doesn't look like Jesus meant it to be taken literatly, but instead to be taken as you might as well not have an eye if all that it causes you to do is sin.

31. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9119 by Jacob on November 23, 2006 at 5:30 pm

What is funny about that? Why do we crack you up? Am I wrong in saying that? I believe Jesus is quoting as saying, "No one comes to the Father except through me". He did make the claim that He alone is the way of salvation. Once again, you don't have a point to back up your stance, all you say is that ours are comical. This makes you look foolish. Do you mind if I send your arguements into, "Atheists Who Have No Idea What They Are Talking About"? See! That just sounds dumb! You make yourself sound like a child when you say things like that.

32. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9103 by Jacob on November 23, 2006 at 4:24 pm

mikejswalker,

You're right, it is hard to compare any choice to that of following God or not, I was just attempting to try to put it in perspective. Like I said earlier, that is a good question and not one that is very fun to think about! But when you follow the Bible, you can't take out what you don't like and add what you do, so I have to take God at His word. Even on the tough stuff! But I hope that I gave you a Christian perspective…sorry if it didn't help any! Hope you had a good Thanksgiving sir!

33. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9101 by Jacob on November 23, 2006 at 4:23 pm

DingoDave,

I "overused" sir because I dind't want to write out DingoDave every time I spoke. That is how I talk in general. Sorry if I seemed rude, but it wasn't meant to be that way. And by calling me Ted Haggard when he has recently been found out to be in trouble and such, you should be able to see why that was something that bothered me. And you have said I am a "drowning man" so why should I not think that you were attacking me again?

My lack of understanding is truly breathtaking? DingoDave, you're the one over looking the main points of the Bible! But yes, I see what point you're trying to make. You believe that John meant what he wrote, but that he was incorrect. God is truly not love. So John, the writer of that book doesn't know what God was truly like but you do? If you can't believe him and that his beliefs were right, than why should you believe the writers of those verses in Leviticus that you used. Maybe they thought and really believed that God was truly an evil, overbearing tyrant but in reality He was loving. Do you see what I mean? You say that you believe the authors meant what they wrote. It may have not been true, but they thought it was. But then you give off the impression that John is incorrect but that the writer of Leviticus and Deuteronomy verses is correct. So basically, you're saying John is wrong in his view of God and so are the writers who believe God is loving. Everyone who believes god to be corrupt is correct though? That is unreal to me!

I wasn't telling you what you think. If it came off that way I am truly sorry because I don't want to seem like I can read people's minds. You said God was a terrorist. And I said I can almost see what you have done in your studies. And by your viewpoint it is showing it to be very possible that you wanted to incriminate God from the beginning. Maybe you didn't but DingoDave and if so I'm sorry. But wow, you're telling me you started to study the Bible totally unbiased and you got the impression that He is an evil tyrant? That's not the impression that a class of students studying "Love in the Bible and Other Ancient Texts" got out of it. Wake Forest University professor Fred L. Horton Jr. has his students study the Bible and other ancient texts to look at love. This is a man who has a degree in Biblical studies, he does this for his job. This is what he says:

"What we discover in these readings is that the Bible is unique," says Horton, Albritton Professor of the Bible at Wake Forest. "It describes the principal relationship between God and the world, and the world to God, as love. In other ancient texts we read about how people served deities out of a sense of fear or duty, not love."

His job is to study the Bible. He gets paid to do this. But you're studies prove wrong a man who has a degree in this field and teaches it at a university? This is just odd to me. Here is the rest of the article if you choose to look at it and read it for yourself. http://www.wfu.edu/wfunews/2002/020602b.html

I already replied to you're calling the sacrifice of Jesus absurd. You must of totally skipped over it, like you all of the love on the pages of the Bible. He died because, "Sin comes with a cost – payment. Again, you reap what you sow. If there is sin, it MUST be atoned for. This is why Jesus came and died for us. No one else has ever lived a perfect life. Only Christ. The blood of a total innocent cancels out the sin…He was the only one able to do this for us! He is THE WAY to atonement for all of mankind, once and for all. Again, if it's barking mad, I don't know how to help you. His love for us is indescribable so I'm not sure how to put it into words for you to explain." God is just so if people sin it has to have payment for it. God cannot just overlook it, He is holy and just. For Him to just ignore sin and say, "Oh it's OK", is for him to contradict Himself. If you understand the nature of God it is not a hard concept to grasp. He died for us because sin has to be atoned for.

If God were all-powerful, what would He done about sin then? You say since he is all-powerful, He wouldn't need to do this "sending people to hell". Then OK, what should He of done? Make it so no one can sin? Then we are all mindless robots who aren't able to choose anything. Should He just ignore sin so that no one has to answer to their choices in life? Then God contradicts Himself because He is just and can't just ignore sin. What should He have done then?

34. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9036 by Jacob on November 23, 2006 at 9:39 am

mikejswalker,

I'm not sure exactly what the question was but I htink it was, "If you were in heaven and your kids were going to go to hell then what would we do?" First off, I don't know who it works so I don't even know if we'll watch them "go on a lift". What I do know is this - there is no choice on what I would do. I would be absolutely heartbroken, but it was their choices they made on earth. At my church there is a family that are friends of ours. The youngest boy has been in and out of juvie and just recently is now under arrest with complicity to commit murder charges. He is only 15. He didn't kill the other person, but he was with the man who did. When they are in court, the mom and dad will have no say what happens over there son. He made his own choices in life. She wishes she coudl swap with her son but she can't, it was HIS choice and HE has to take the consequences of that choice. The will be no smiling about what the decision is it if it is a bad one, but it doesn't change the fact that there is nothing she can do about it. It was his choice.

I hope that helped and maybe answered it a little for you from a Christian point-of-view. That is a good question, and a heart wrenching one to think about...

35. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #9034 by Jacob on November 23, 2006 at 9:25 am

DingoDave,

Sorry if I call you sir. I do it out of respect but evidently you do not like it so I will quit. And no need to attack me by comparing me to Ted Haggard. Again, attacking the person just makes you look bad since your stance in unreasonable. Let's focus on our beliefs and leave the character judgements and attacking out of it, alright? If I want to be called names I can go visit my 8 year old cousin. This is a discussion group and a "clear thinking oasis", so let's try to refrain.

I wanted to stop this discussion because your bias and hatred towards God is so evident it totally twists the way you look at the Bible that you leave the vast majority of it out, but I can't just let you attack God and the Bible when you use faulty reasoning.

You say you take the Biblical authors at the word. In fact, you say you give them the courtesy of taking them at your word. In your very next post, you then reject the author John and say he is lying with the statment, "God is love". Don't you see the absurdity in that? You are contradicting yourself by not taking them at what they say!

You say that the Bible describes God as a tyrant and a terrorist. Evidently you have just read certain parts of the Bible. I can almost see exactly what you have done. You got an idea that God is a bad guy, so you went to look for evidence to back that theory up. You didn't go at it with, "I want to see who the Bible says God is". There is no way you went at your studying with that viewpoint! If so, then you wouldn't have reached this conclusion!

What I am saying is that the Bible is the story of God's pursuit of a prodigal people. While we were sinning and doing awful things, God still loved us. So much in fact that Jesus came and died for us that we could have eternal life if we choose to accept that gift! How is that hate? That is the greatest love story I can think of!

36. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8937 by Jacob on November 22, 2006 at 10:25 pm

DingoDave,

That is the easy way out sir. Just say I'm the one who is descending into madness so you don't have to answer my questions. I answered everyone of your questions logically with words from the Bible. You seem to have some kind of agression and hate towards Christianity which greatly discredits your arguments. You routinely pick out what you want to hear from the Scripture, ignoring it's main message so you can justify your beliefs. You say I rationalize and use verses that I want to hear? Sir, you are in the wrong. If you honestly studied the Bible and were being honest, you would see the loving naure of God that is all over pages of the Scriptures.

And I didn't realize I needed help sir. I appreciate your "concern", but don't need it. I have Christ and that is what I need. I don't seek your approval.

Desparation is not my action, but it seems like it is yours sir. You desperately seek to find more verses on Hell and hate so you can try to rationalize your beliefs. If you don't want to believe in God, then don't. But DO NOT continue to use things out of context just so you can feel OK about your beliefs. That right there is truly desperate. I feel for you that it has come to this for you...that you feel the need to try to make the Bible into something it is not. It is saddening and I will be praying that you will be able to see God for all that He really is!

I do agree that they meant what they wrote. I didn't say otherwise. And you do make assumptions sir. You say you take them at their word, correct? Then why do you reject John when he says, "God is love." You say this is false. Again, you are contradicting yourself and not making sense. You don't believe the Bible. So don't. But don't continue this petty argument that you have constructed in a poor manner.

It's amazing...all seem to be the same and use the same tactic. When someone can't prove their stance to be true, they attack the other person. Saying I am a "drowning man"...attacking me as a person because your stance can't stand up against the Bible. I have heard that before...like I said it's all the same. A futile attempt to discredit the other person.

This will be my last post to you sir. You seem to be some hardened towards God, no matter what the truth is you will not change your mind. Also, you seem to be hardened towards me. Questioning my salvation, attacking me as a person...there is no need for me to hear this anymore. I haven't made "my" point - the Bible has just proven itself in our discussion. And I'm sorry, your arguements don't hold up. But regardless, you won't change. I'm sorry to hear that. I wish you all the better and hope that somewhere in life you are able to see God for what he is...a personal God who loves you deeply sir! Again, I hope you have a wonderful Thankgiving and I will be praying for you that you will have a long, blessed life. Good night.

37. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8935 by Jacob on November 22, 2006 at 10:00 pm

Randall,

It's great to hear your input. I'm a Protestant Christian. I don't know if you have heard of Free Methodist either, but it is not as big as some denominations such as Baptist or Lutherans. How long have you been in the church? Born and raised or came to faith later? I was grown up in a Christian home but didn't come to faith till later. Well, just saying hello and once again I enjoy hearing your input, along with all the other people in here. Discussion like this is great because it is focusing on what is really important!

38. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8930 by Jacob on November 22, 2006 at 9:07 pm

Comment #138 is mine. I forgot to add my name. My apologies!

39. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8759 by Jacob on November 22, 2006 at 8:11 am

"We condoned slavery.."

Of course, this was a mistype. I meant "We did not condone slavery."

40. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8756 by Jacob on November 22, 2006 at 8:02 am

Me and the 2.1 billion Christians (I had the number wrong earlier with 1.2) are all brainwashed according to your theory? We all just listen to what we hear and don't read the Bible for ourselves? Sorry, but again that is a weak argument. I have not been brainwashed. I read the Bible and study it for myself. If you would have a totally unbiased reader look at the life and ministry of Jesus and ask which topic he hit on more, love or Hell, what would they say? And be honest with yourself; don't let your presumptions sway what you think. You KNOW what they would say – love is what Christ is about. Just because you don't want to believe it doesn't mean you can have your own interpretation. I could say the same thing – that you've been brainwashed away from Christianity by bashers who oppose any kind of belief system. So don't use the old "brainwash" excuse, I've heard that already and it's weak.

And yes, you questioned my salvation. Plain and simple. Yes you can say "According to what the Bible says…" but the fact is still the same that you an unsure whether I'm saved or not. But it's ok; we need not talk about it anymore. I have died to myself and am alive in Christ so we can let that be, case settled!

Christ died for us because of his unconditional love for us. It wasn't his duty or job to save us and die for us. And did these firemen have people persecuting and cheering when they were dying? It's a totally different scenario…you can't compare what Christ did for us to what a fireman does. While they are heroic and great men, they are totally different than Christ. Also, Jesus didn't "go on to become ruler of the Universe," He already held that title.

No, I didn't ignore those verses. In fact, I even told you I agreed that Christ did speak of Hell, but it paled in comparison to His talking of love. You seem to be ignoring the MULTITUDE of those verses. You haven't remarked on them once, at least I don't remember, so if you did I'm sorry. You continue to focus on Hell, seeming determined to justify your belief that God is all about Hell. And I told you how I found that, BibleGateway.com. Type in a word and it conducts a search of every verse that contains it. For "Hell": 14 and for "Love" 697. I realize what you're saying and when you look at the verses you have it seems to be a lot. But it is not compared to the other things Christ teaches of. Again, just have an unbiased reader look at Jesus' ministry and have them tell you what he focuses on. Guarantee it wouldn't be Hell, and I think you know that too.

Not once did I imply that the Roman soldiers were in heaven. Don't try to imply things and make assumptions. You have a nasty habit of doing that. While He was on the cross, He said, "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do". You taught the Bible evidently so you should know this passage. They didn't ask for His forgiveness, but He was showing His love for them and expressing that even though they were sinning, He loved and cared about them.

Again your trying to say that about 99% of Christians are brainwashed into thinking God loves them and isn't like an abusive parent? Again, this is weak! To believe that is to go against everything in the Bible! "And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God and God in him." I John 4:16 – God is love! God is NOT an abusive parent. Sir, if you don't think there is a God then fine! But again, don't contort Him so it will justify your belief! My stance and that of most Christians needs no such contorting – it states things clear and simple! We don't have to make assumptions that even though God is love and he does all these things that show he is love, he is actually an evil, abusive parent in the sky.

"Then why did Jesus feel the need to threaten people with Hell if they didn't practice good works towards their fellow man?" Well I can ask right back, "Why did he say that belief in Him is the only way to God?" Works don't get your salvation, but they do please God. He created all of us equal so when we treat each other with mutual respect, realizing how important all of us are, he is pleased and happy with us. He wants to see all of mankind love and treat each other as they would want to be treated.

Again, I can't keep saying this so it's the last time. Hell is there because it needs to be. For every choice there is a consequence, or as the Bible puts it, "The wages of sin is death." Hell is there as the alternative to heaven. If you choose to sin and never accept what God has done for you, than you will get what you "wanted", so to speak. God always gives us choices. And I already told you the thing about the body parts. It's better to not have that part of the body if all it does it cause you to sin and do harm. And what about my question? If Jesus is literately endorsing and telling people to cut off body parts, why did he not tell Peter to cut of his tongue for lying and denying Christ?

Sir, I understand what you are saying. You had faith in God. You then did some studying and feel away from the faith because what you read didn't make sense to you. I totally get that. When I do not understand something, I also study it out. I don't just hear something and take it as truth. I study it out. I have had questions too. When God made the universe, he made rules and laws that are engrained in it. These laws fall in line with his personality and his character. God is just. If there is sin, it must be atoned for. It He would have made it so there would be no penalty, it would go against Himself. To atone for sin once and for all, He had to live a perfect life on earth because He is the only one capable of doing it. He was the only one to be able to qualify for the final atonement.

Like I said earlier, what we do in live echoes in eternity. We can choose to accept Heaven or reject it. Hell is never ending, but Heaven is too. Trust me, I do see the difference. So does my associate pastor whose mother died when she had never had faith in Christ as far as he knows. I know how it works. And you make it sound like God is the one stoking the fire and adding wood. This is not Biblical. Hell is essentially the absence of God, He is not there. He's not sitting there watching people burn and just soaking it in. And why is this an outrage? Everything else in life has a cause and effect, a "reap" and "sow" law. If you sin and never accept forgiveness, than that is your choice. You reap what you sow. If EVERYONE got into heaven, sinners and nonbelievers and believers alike, that would make less sense. I hate the thought of people and loved ones I knew who never were saved. Don't continue to remind me please. I understand how it works.

The reason there are so many sects is because people take things out of context and twist things are to fit what they want to believe. They don't just read and understand. They have to make it so it fits they're life so they can justify what the want to believe. I have had conversations with people who say they only follow Christ and reject the Old Testament. They do this even though Jesus Himself says he came to fulfill the Old Testament, not to destroy it. People hear what they want to hear and read what they want to read. You obviously don't want to believe God has a single bit of goodness in Him. This is why you focus only on hell and haven't acknowledged His love at all, which is ALL over the Bible. It is not controversial, especially on the point of salvation. In Acts, Peter said when referring to Jesus that, "There is no other name by which men are saved." Don't know about you, but that sounds pretty clear to me.

And no, as long as Randall confessed His sins, claims Jesus Christ as his risen Lord, and accepts his gift of salvation, he will be saved – and from the sounds of it He has done all of this. The Bible doesn't beat around the bush…the plan for redemption is the most clear of any belief system.

Free Methodists started in 1860. We broke off because churches had a "pew tax" so you had to rent where you sat. Also up to this point slavery was still legal. We believed both to be wrong before God and that it was unjust to our fellow man. We let the poorest of the poor sit wherever they wanted, even in the front where this was usually reserved for the rich and prominent in most churches. We condoned slavery and pushed for its abolishment, which came soon with President Lincoln. Today we follow the same teachings and know that salvation comes from nowhere else but Christ. We shun no one, and accept all. I'm very proud of my church and my Christian heritage.

"I have never met a Christian who would admit that he might not be saved. Yourself included." I didn't say they'd admit they weren't saved. In fact, I said they would claim otherwise. Sir, you KNOW when you have truly accepted the love of Jesus Christ. It's not a "guess" and a "hope I make it" – you KNOW if you're right with God or not. Don't use one set of verses that are taken out of context to disprove someone's salvation. That's the whole reason there are different sects!

P.S. I don't plan on debating whether or not Hell is Christ's main focus anymore. You continue to ignore and ignore all of the love in the Bible. You are focusing on Hell, and you can't even acknowledge the presence of love. I shouldn't of even answered again in this argument because it is so overwhelmingly clear that your claim is not true. Feel free answer back with more evidence for your claim if you would like, but the fact still remains. Just cause you don't want to believe what the Bible says doesn't make it false. And I wasn't brainwashed into thinking that, all I had to do was pick up a Bible and READ it!

41. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8623 by Jacob on November 21, 2006 at 8:58 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity - Read the section under salvation. The majority and all of the main "sects" agree that Jesus Christ is the way to salvation.

42. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8622 by Jacob on November 21, 2006 at 8:55 pm

And what is the main basis in all sects? Faith and belief is Jesus Christ is THE way to heaven!

43. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8614 by Jacob on November 21, 2006 at 8:41 pm

The text does not say that at all. Jesus says that if your hands or feet or eyes cause you to sin, it is better to chop them off and throw them away than for them to cause you to be thrown into Hell. Plain and simple.
I'll post it again for you to take another look at.
Here it is.

If Jesus did not mean it in this way, than please answer my question. Why didn't He tell Peter to cut off his tongue for lying? Or cut out Thomas' brain for doubting Him? He was saying it in the way that if something causes you to sin, than flee from it. If your eyes cause you to do harm, then it would be better if you didn't have any.

44. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8612 by Jacob on November 21, 2006 at 8:37 pm

We see what you mean, but we are showing you what the Bible and Christ are saying! Read the whole set of verses and they say, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?". See what He says? "...but only he who does the will of my Father." People will say and claim their Christians and claim it even though in their hearts they know they are not truly saved. Jesus says that He is the way to God. Choose Him or not. He is not saying you have to guess if you're saved, the road to salvation is CLEARLY paved.

45. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8603 by Jacob on November 21, 2006 at 8:11 pm

That's totally fine! :-) Don't sweat it!

46. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8599 by Jacob on November 21, 2006 at 8:00 pm

Thanks for the help Randall you have good insight! I on the other hand evidently am not getting my point across! And my name is Jacob for the record, just to clear up confusion! :-)

Sir, as I said earlier, I didn't know if I misunderstood you or not. And this is just my point I was trying to make. Jesus died for His blasphemy of calling himself God. That's what it says in the Bible. I'm not drawing assumptions saying that I know for a fact Jesus never said it but that someone later added it and had Him "say" it in their book. When you draw assumptions like that then it shows a biased viewpoint. I believe it because it says it, I don't have to assume something.

Yes, I have read those verses. Many times as a matter of fact. But you are selecting a small few for your argument that the main focus of Christ is not love, but to stay out of hell at all costs. I typed in a search on www.BibleGateway.com for Hell. 14 matching verses came up. How many for love? 697. Please, do it for yourself and don't take my word on it. You may want to believe that God is all about hate and Hell so go ahead and believe that, but don't try to justify that by using the Bible because it's not a good argument. So I'm done talking about whether or not Hell is the main focus. We've been "debating" a topic that is illogical because the answer is clear – "And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God and God in him." I John 4:16

Works aren't the way to stay out of Hell, acceptance and love for Christ is. Works aren't done out of fear of hellfire, they are done out of love and respect I have for my fellow man because I realize how precious and important every living person is. And Jesus is not telling us that we must cut of arms and legs if you sin. If you read the whole thing and the context He is saying that if would be better to have no eyes at all if all they are going to do is cause harm. Peter sinned when he lied and denied Jesus three times. Yet Christ didn't tell Peter to cut off his tongue since he sinned with it, did He?

Me asking you about the Bible is a common tactic? Well I keep asking if you read the Bible because that is a common tactic of those against the Bible. They act like they know all about the Bible so it gives them some kind of "credibility". And I wonder about you since you have so greatly missed the point of the Gospel. You know what that means? "Good news" is what Gospel means…not "Hey! Believe in Me or Burn in Hell."

Why did God create Hell? Because He is just. If people decide to follow their own way and never confess their sins which EVERYONE has, then they have to take the consequences of their choice. If God would let everyone get by with a "Get out of Jail Free Card", than He would not be righteous and just. It would go against His nature and very character. Everyone reaps what they sow.

And I would agree that God seems crazy to me too. That He would love us even in our darkness, worst moments is crazy. And coming to earth even though He knew he would be killed by the very people he loves? And then forgiving his murderers while He hangs on the cross? You're right…he definitely is crazy.

Sin comes with a cost – payment. Again, you reap what you sow. If there is sin, it MUST be atoned for. This is why Jesus came and died for us. No one else has ever lived a perfect life. Only Christ. The blood of a total innocent cancels out the sin…He was the only one able to do this for us! He is THE WAY to atonement for all of mankind, once and for all. Again, if it's barking mad, I don't know how to help you. His love for us is indescribable so I'm not sure how to put it into words for you to explain.

Did you totally ignore the verse from the Bible? Romans 5:7-8, "Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." He loved us even in our sin and died for us. You say he doesn't have love no matter what? Than why did he forgive his murders while He hung on the cross? And no, you're not to torture your Son, but God doesn't torture us either. You don't seem to want to understand me at all sir. And you believe the vast majority of the 1.2 billion Christians of the world think he is a monster? Of course…that makes perfect sense now! He is such an evil being that He loved us so much He came and died so that we could choose to live in eternity with Him. What an evil madman! And you say Christians have a relationship with God like and abusive parent? Every church I've been to (which is A LOT, my father was the superintendent for all Free Methodist churches in Ohio) would contend that fact with you sir, as well as the vast majority of born-again believers. Where you're getting your statistics is illogical…all of this is just guessing. You guess that Christians don't really love God, you assume they actually are just afraid of him. Do me a favor and go to 3-5 churches and take a poll: Do you love God or are you just terrified of Him? Come back with the results because I would be interested to hear what your findings would be.

I would think you're questioning my salvation because of this:
>"Are you questioning whether I am saved or not?"
>Yes. But don't blame me, blame Jesus.
I didn't write it sir, you did. So if you wonder why I would think that, look no further because it's pretty clear what you said. Christianity is the only main religion with a clear basis for salvation. Jesus is the way to heaven. We can have security in our salvation, not strive to just do good works and hope for heaven. Good works don't get you there, and how do you know if you've been "good" enough? You can't! Romans 10:9 says, "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." It's not a guessing game. If you HONESTLY believe in Christ and love Him, you make heaven. Jesus is talking about hypocrites who didn't actually love and know Him as their savior. Which is why He said, "I never knew you". But I don't have to worry about that! Jesus is my Savior and friend so again, doubt my salvation if you want…I'm not seeking your "OK" because Christ already has given my His!

47. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8470 by Jacob on November 21, 2006 at 10:49 am

In your comment you said that Jesus never claimed to be God, but that an anonymous writer did. Jesus did claim to be God in the Bible and this is what led to His murder. The vast majority of historians say that Jesus actually lived and was killed. But the word of professionals in their field isn't good enough to some so I don't know if you agree with that or not.

Sir, I never said Jesus never talks about hell did I? I said that he did not talk about it often compared to the rest of His ministry. If you would try to find verses on loving God or helping the poor and needy, you'd find MUCH more than you would on hell. I NEVER said he doesn't talk of it at all, I said that it pales in comparison to the rest of His ministry. His ministry was focused on two main things, and both can be found in the same place, Matthew 22:37-40. "Jesus replied, 'Love the Lord your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All of the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'" This is the focus of Christ's ministry, not hell! Not once does it say, "Thou shalt strive to keep thy butt out of Hell," it is all about love…that is the whole centerpiece of the Bible! And yes life is brief, but not a dress rehearsal and that's all…what we do in this life echoes on forever into eternity. Hell does not "trump" love… the Bible says, "Love conquers all"…if this is so than how could Hell trump it? It doesn't! That's why!

And you said that God is willfully inflicting Hell on people as if He enjoys it? What kind of Bible have you been reading sir? You seem to read of an impersonal God who does not love but just relishes the thought of tormenting people. This is in contrast to the God of Christianity. If He loves sending people to hell, why would he give up his only Son to die for these people so they can have an eternity with Him if they choose it? Your argument doesn't seem to make sense so maybe I'm misunderstanding it.

You're attempting to compare Stalin to God? I would be intrigued to find out how you got this idea of God. Here is the difference to me. Did Stalin create those people he wants to trust in him and love him? Does Stalin truly love them no matter what they decide? Does Stalin love these people no matter what they do? Would Stalin give his life away and die so that those people could live? The Bible says in Romans 5:8-9, "Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!" God's wrath is his holiness because sin equals death...it is a law like the law of gravity. The Bible says, "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our lord." I don't think your Stalin holds up to the God of Christianity. While I see your point, it is not one that matches up with our God. Maybe in some other belief system it would be more practical.

And while you're being extremely judgmental by claiming to know whether I am saved or not, that is all right. That's your opinion, how wrong it may be. I have been a born again Christian for going on 7 years now and I pray and talk with my God everyday. I love Him with my whole heart and I try to be as Christ-like as possible so people can see how much Christ loves them by what he has done through me. Continue questioning God and the existence of Christ and whether I'm saved or not…He made us so we're able to do that!

48. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8331 by Jacob on November 20, 2006 at 10:05 pm

What I just gave you is evidence. How do you prove someone lived other than through archaeology and historical documentation? What kind of "contemporary evidence" do you want? I showed you an UNBIASED source that shows answers and shows that the majority of all historians agree He lived. And the key word there is unbiased...I checked out your resource and it definitely cannot say the same due to the fact that it is a "Christian bashing" site. If I would of used a Christian site for my argument, you would've pushed it aside. And please don't be so focused on way you don't listen to facts...you've got trained professionals in their fields saying there is proof of a historical Jesus and you can still say they are wrong and don't know what they're talking about. And I do not understand what your last question is? Why don't amputees get their prayers answered? Last time I checked, I'm not God! :-) I can't tell you why or why not on a subject like that...for me to attempt it would be for me to figure out the mind of God which in the Bible it says are far greater than our ways. But it is a good question and I wish I knew...that is if I understood the question right!

49. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8325 by Jacob on November 20, 2006 at 9:42 pm

So even though the vast majority or scholars and historians today believe He actually lived your still at all swayed? You still think there was no Jesus? If so then you evidently have better information and training than trained specialists who would differ with you. This is exactly what I mean. You wanted sources, so I give sources and its not enough STILL.

And I don't follow Apollonius because there's not good evidence. The historical records of him I greatly question. See! That is not a good argument yet you use it against Jesus. It is just blind hope because you don't want to agree with what the majority of historians have discovered - that he was a real man. You know, just to admit he lived doesn't mean you have to believe He was God. I guarentee some of those historians don't. But the reason I don't follow Apollonius is because the evidence around him is weak compared to that of Jesus and he doesn't even come close to Christ, which again if you would look on some resources is true. Why is it so hard to admit the historicity of Jesus?

50. Richard Dawkins and the "new atheists" come to America

Comment #8313 by Jacob on November 20, 2006 at 9:02 pm

"A small minority of scholars and authors question the historical existence of Jesus, arguing for a completely mythological Jesus."

Most of these scholars and historians DO NOT deny a historical Jesus so please show me your reference saying against this stance. Please read through everything too. While some question, the majority agree HE DID LIVE. They don't all agree of His deity, but they agree on his existence. So there you go, I have given you ANOTHER thing now! But i have a feeling this won't be good enough either...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus