1. Logical Proof of the Existence of a Divine Creator, Why Atheism is Not Logically Sound

Comment #190744 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 9, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Blew it in the opening paragraphs.

Nowhere does the above hold more true than with regard to the existence of a Divine Creator. Proof of a conscious Creator is readily available. The simplest proof (yet one that no atheist has ever been able to counter effectively) is that a universe of this size and magnitude does not somehow build itself, just as a set of encyclopedias doesn't write itself or form randomly from the spill of a massive inkblot.


From a universe of hydrogen to the most complex organisms on earth, we actually have a damn good idea how that process unfolded. No God required, the universe is entirely self assembling, and we have the evidence to prove it. Jackass.

2. Churchgoing on its knees as Christianity falls out of favour

Comment #177371 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 9, 2008 at 1:46 am

15. Comment #177304 by Robert Maynard on May 8, 2008 at 10:28 pm
1.96 million Muslims today, in a country of 58.8 million people. 2.6 million in 2050?
Oooga-booga-boo! I'm so scared!

I share your terror Robert, these numbers are absolutely chilling!! Thank goodness Fanusi and other similarly concerned citizens are stridently sounding the alarm at every opportunity, people need to be warned of this pending apocalypse!

3. Get out of here, atheists!

Comment #156769 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 8, 2008 at 8:38 am

169. Comment #156752 by Calilasseia on April 8, 2008 at 8:20 am

I've certainly emailed it around ... hopefully a boss will see it. Galling to see that much concentrated bigotry, hatred and willful ignorance in a person installed in a position of significant authority. Just beyond the pale.

4. Get out of here, atheists!

Comment #156748 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 8, 2008 at 8:18 am

my letter ....

Rep. Davis - Following in the bullet riddled footsteps of Sally Kern

Is this individual simply clueless about the consitution? No American is obliged to swear allegiance to any God to have their rights protected, and some tens of millions don't. I hope a bunch of them express themselves forcefully in the next election.

As for her absurd comments about Lincoln, I trust you've already set Rep. Davis straight? She is not just a bigot, but an ignorant bigot, but then, has there ever been any other kind? What a lethal cocktail. A disgrace to her office, the democratic party and a jaw dropping embarrasment to the United States.

Rep. Davis should resign if she cannot defend and respect all of her constituents equally.

5. Get out of here, atheists!

Comment #156735 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 8, 2008 at 8:06 am

My contribution to the fray :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtPhqUj5VvY

6. Beware the Believers

Comment #154606 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 3, 2008 at 1:49 pm

Kardashovel: And some cultures' moral norms, religious or otherwise, are abominable.

You'll probably find that there is some confusion here about how one treats insiders and outsiders. Most societies are fairly decent to their insiders, its the outsiders that really get the hammering, and that frankly, hasn't changed all that much, although the circles of inclusion are getting bigger. That is a plus.

Whenever you hear "do unto others", or variations on that theme, the "others" in question are invariably "our" others.

7. Beware the Believers

Comment #154588 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 3, 2008 at 1:29 pm

These days, very few pay attention to their pastor, which is just as well because very few pastors are worth listening to. On the other hand, religion was quite successful at bringing about prohibitions against infanticide, organized charity, and guarantees of free will, free speech, and equality in the eyes of the law. You know... civilization.

Well I can agree with the first part, but I take issue with the latter. Religion certainly has some utility, and if nothing else it's great at ensuring it survives, but as regards its total contribution to human well being, I think you'd be hard pressed to make a decent case for breaking even.

Antibiotics alone, have improved and prolonged the lives of billions.

8. Beware the Believers

Comment #154575 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 3, 2008 at 1:15 pm

Is this true, Blacknad? If so, why would you even read his stuff? The man is repugnant.

Theodore Beale (that name just isn't used enough!) has been pimping his absurd little book, and trying to ramp up traffic to his blog for sometime now. He has said some crazy stuff, but his acknowledgement that if he really believed God wanted him to kill his own children, he would, surely takes the cake.

http://www.unscrewingtheinscrutable.com//node/1178?q=log/node/1178&q=node/1178

Personally, I don't think he believes a word of the crap he spouts. He's a wannabe Ann Coulter/D'Souza. Basically intelligent enough to know better, but also intelligent enough to realise there is a massive ready made constituency of morons for the milking.

The christian scene is lousy with these characters, the credulity on offer practically demands it.

9. Beware the Believers

Comment #154566 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 3, 2008 at 1:01 pm

From Vox Day's blog - very interesting:

Oh I doubt it.

10. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #154056 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 2, 2008 at 1:17 pm

Just FYI sometimes I have a hard time taking you seriously when I look at your avatar. ;-)


Ah yes .... the "Horn of Gondor" ... :-)

11. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #154046 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 2, 2008 at 12:56 pm

What about Iran... Do you consider it a democracy?

Not really. They are not quite a theocracy either though, and they have all the structures in place to become a genuine democracy very quickly. Although its clear the theocrats have a strangehold on the democrats, the last decade has proven that beyond a doubt.

And how will you be able to exclude China

How are they excluded from the EU, or the UAE? It's an exclusive club, with rules for joining. Once it gets started, especially if the pot is sweetened for smaller, poorer democracies, the UN will simply be hollowed out. A formal declaration of death wouldn't even be required.

Now Saudi Arabia? That will piss them off, and if we still need oil, no one will want to piss them off.

Pissed off with a club that has the bulk of the economic clout of the planet? I don't think that will do them much good, and I suspect they are going to see their leverage erode as the drive for alternates and efficency gets underway. If only Bush had spent the 3 trillion on fusion power:-(

One point that occurs to me as regards China or indeed any non-democratic nation. They could be allowed to join, as long as they allowed free and fair elections, as determined by several independent international bodies, to the global parliament.

It seems odd, totalitarian locally, but democratic globally, however as long as the regime cannot influence the global election, or those elected ... could be just the trojan horse to get them onboard for real?

12. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #154040 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 2, 2008 at 12:41 pm

645. Comment #154037 by al-rawandi on April 2, 2008 at 12:33 pm
avatarThe UN seems as useful as a poopy flavored lolly pop.

Now it is, because the nation states have undermined the processes agreed at the end of WWII, and the structures are terribly unrepresentative given the economics and demographics we see today.

However, the idea of the UN is laudable, but it was flawed from the outset.

I've come to favour a core of democratic countries (EU, Americas, India etc.), with a population weighted parliament as a replacement.

Bare minimum requirements to join would be some recognisably democratic system, thats it. We could start with 60% of humanity represented from day one.

13. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #154036 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 2, 2008 at 12:32 pm

International social contracts perhaps...

I think these are vulnerable to abuse by the stronger parties, but it's certainly better than nothing.

We have had a global economy for decades now, the first serious draft of global environmental legislation is on the table, but what are the global political instruments we have at our disposal?

The UN? The security council? I think that horse has run its last race .... we need something new that reflects the depth and breadth of human interaction and integration in the 21st century.

14. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #154029 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 2, 2008 at 12:23 pm

638. Comment #154003 by Gymnopedie on April 2, 2008 at 11:26 am

I don't believe anyone is denying that many muslims say, endorse and occasionally act on stupid and appalling belief systems.

To get a fully rounded grasp of the problem, these beliefs have got to be placed in a context of capacity to follow through. As is no doubt clear, I think the capacity to follow through as distinct from aspiration is sorely lacking. Which is of course, a very good thing indeed.

The real issue is what is the correct response, within our societies to this problem? I think Al's suggestions are a good framework. Additionally though, we need more than national laws, we need binding global laws to ensure war criminals, terrorists and extremists of every stripe simply have nowhere left to hide.

The pivotal point here though is law, agreed, respected and enforced.

15. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153890 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 2, 2008 at 7:28 am

Well before y'all go down the road of ideal citizenship laws, could someone please clarify present European laws? If one is born in a European country, is one automatically a citizen of that country?

It differs from state to state. If both parents are citizens, or perhaps just your mother, then you are generally ok.

Also if you are a citizen of one EU country, you can work and live in any other, so in practical terms citizenship is defacto extended to you.

There have been efforts to harmonize citizen laws to prevent some states becoming target points of entry. Hence the "Fortress Europe" talk of recent years.

16. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153870 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 2, 2008 at 7:00 am

I liked Dr. Brenway's post on the idea of citizenship. What do you think, should place of birth be enough to determine citizenship?

What post was that?

17. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153855 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 2, 2008 at 6:49 am

596. Comment #153851 by al-rawandi on April 2, 2008 at 6:46 am

Well you may not have referred to me, and I may not have said it, but I was thinking it, and it coloured my posts, and I was way off base:-) Apologies.

Peace it is.

18. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153847 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 2, 2008 at 6:43 am

593. Comment #153841 by al-rawandi on April 2, 2008 at 6:36 am

So I got labeled "A right wing fanatic". A man who is voting for Obama, who supports socialized medicine, who supports and end to foreign military aggression, who supports tax relief for the middle class and poor, who supports clean energy, and who has voted for Democrats his entire life....

Oh you are diabolical ....

As you know Al, I misplaced my head last night. Can I just say ... I finally found it!!!

You'll never guess where it was ...

19. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153769 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 2, 2008 at 3:16 am

I would have thought that the real problem with having a significant unintegrated number is that it will turn into a Lebanon / Balkans type situation - i.e. one doesn't have Sharia, but one does have extreme tribalism, inter-tribal violence and a general breakdown in the rules of society. A further example (though it wasn't entirely religion based) would be the revolts in the Banlieues of French cities.

I agree that these are problems, certainly, and it would be foolish to simply ignore them.

My main effort in this thread has been to try and get people to have a sense of perspective about the scale of the threat, and not to fly off the handle every time some egregious, turd like element of islamic society bobbles to the top of our global pond.

This stuff is happening. We know that, getting all freaked out by individual anecdotes is not helpful. It also doesn't help to characterise the threat of Islam as existential, this is just plain wrong for a variety of reasons which I've posted, and this meme engages our most basic fight or flight instincts. At that stage discussion is out the window.

Al's presentation of the threat dropped my IQ a couple of notches, but what he thinks we should actually do about it is fairly reasonable.

Lets discuss it and form our opinions, but lets also remember that neurologically, we are little more than souped up chimps. A perceived existential threat is going to cause people to do, say and endorse some fairly stupid and hideous stuff, it always does.

20. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153525 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 2:29 pm

Not to be bitchy, but maybe if you had paid attention to my posts in defense of al-rawandi, you would have seen sooner that he is not the "Fanusi" you were making him out to be.

I'm sure you're right.

21. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153512 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Me too, I am afraid. I have found this thread really disheartening. It has tarnished this site for me somewhat.

Oh you should see the old AGW threads. Before everyone realised its absolutely 100% happening. What fun we had.

I was going to bed ... really a word of encouragement ... well maybe.

There are only two sane people in the world, me and you ... and I can't be that certain about you.

Thus it has ever been, and thus it will continue:-)

Richard ... you are a very "bad man":-)

22. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153502 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 2:10 pm

People need to look at what I am saying before they suggest I am the next Adolf Eichmann.

I have done this before, and I apologise. This is a long thread and I have not read everything on it.

It's just ..... some awful thing happens in Saudi, or Iran and "our" extremists come barrelling out of the woodwork baying for (generally arabic) blood.

I mistook you for one of these, and I genuinely think there is a lesson in there for you too. I hope our fragile truce can withstand that much forthright commentary?

I think best to head off to bed now ... g'night all, it's been real, even the strawmen:-)

23. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153495 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 2:02 pm

You're kidding, right?

Of course ....

24. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153491 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 2:01 pm

497. Comment #153481 by al-rawandi on April 1, 2008 at 1:54 pm

OK. I'm clearer on your position, and I jumped in with fists flying before having a full grasp of your modest proposals.

There was some comment about cruise missiles I think, but lets put that down to enthusiasim.

I still have some issues with the scale of the threat you perceive and what I consider to be the reality, however the very limited and focused action you propose in the context of civil law seems fine.

Fuck. What was all that about?

25. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153483 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 1:55 pm

I said foreign nationals, who can be shown in a trial with representation, as supporters of shariah and terrorism should be deported. All native born people should be dealt with within the framework of domestic laws, given due process

Alright ... ok ... deep breaths.

I had not seen that, or forgotten it, or was in denial about it. It sounds pretty reasonable to me. I think it's your vitriol thats setting me off. Seriously. Which is why you should try moderating your language, and back off savaging people so readily.

26. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153475 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 1:49 pm

Anna meant the general targeting of Muslims.

Yes. I know that and I also think that isn't what you meant. So I clarified it.

Still, since we are talking about it. Do you advocate the expulsion of muslims based on their sect? Feel free to be expansive.

27. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153469 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 1:45 pm

I am not suggesting Joe Six Pack do anything.

But I am suggesting that your vitriol, tone and overall ... I'm sorry ... sense of near hysteria is dangerous, especially to the uninformed.

Your position seems to distill out to this.

A tiny minority of obscure cultists in the islamic world, perhaps as many as 7 people, represent the greatest threat humanity has ever seen. We have to get these people and stop them.

It just seems internally incoherent is all.

Sorry Steve ... not helpful:-/

28. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153457 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 1:39 pm

Only Fanusi advocated deportation en masse. al-rawandi said that those who can be demonstrably shown to support shariah...I don't think this qualifies as targeting people if it is demonstrable...correct me if I'm wrong.

I got the impression that those listed qualify by definition.

29. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153445 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 1:28 pm

I am going to have to ask you to be honest. Please stop lying. I am not painting with a broad brush. That is a pretty narrow brush.

Be assured my lying is inadvertent. The broad brush I refer to is the scale of the threat, not the specific islamic sects being ... I don't know ... targeted for deportation?

Besides, as you note, the finer distinctions are lost on amature dabblers like myself. How likely is it that "Joe Sixpack" will be able to tell a Wahabbist from a Sunni once your "To the Walls!!!" has them all fired up?

We need to be very, very careful about how we discuss this or ... what am I saying ... nearly 100,000 innocent people are dead already because of a failure to carefully consider. Lets just shoot for not adding to that total.

30. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153442 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 1:21 pm

462. Comment #153435 by Nairb on April 1, 2008 at 1:16 pm

Funny:-) Yet true. Quite the best kind of funny there is:-)

31. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153438 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 1:18 pm

People killed by Global Warming: 0.

Actually I think that one could be argued .... :-/

32. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153433 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 1:15 pm

Will do in about an hour when I get off of work. I can't get YT here.

In a nutshell :

1) The west has all the money, weapons and political power. Really. We do.
2) Muslims are not some kind of monolithic borg. Turkey and Indonesia for example, while not perfect, are fairly secular. Turkey may even join the EU. The demographic change is hopelessly exaggerated, France is the only country in a union of nearly 500 million people that is within a generation of 50% muslim. EU muslims make up about 5% of the total poplation. You'd think it was at least 30 wouldn't you? Nope FIVE.
3) The threat of intermittent terrorism, perhaps for decades, is real, but an ACB attack is very, very, improbable. The Iranian theocrats are the only ones capable, and they have shown themselves to be as cynical, rational and survival oriented as any political class on the planet. They are unlikely to launch a first strike, even if they could. If they did it would be hideous curtains for them (I expect).
4) The absolute worst case scenario imaginable, an ACB attack on a western city, does not in any event, represent an existential threat to western civilisation or the enlightenment.
5) We are winning the war of ideas already. The spike in fundamentalism is an allergic reaction certainly, but the pace of technological change is eroding all this nonsense as we speak.

Oh dear that was actually quite long. Oh well.

33. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153411 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 1:00 pm

Touching anectdote.

Not just that. A real flesh and blood guy, with a family, all of whom risk being tarred with the brush you are currently wielding. EVEN THOUGH I AM NOW QUITE CONVINCED THAT THIS IS NOT YOUR INTENTION.

We need to choose our words carefully. Me too. People are frightened, and when people are frightened, they don't dispatch their militaries on missions of mercy.

34. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153399 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 12:50 pm

So you simply can't break down to "Who right now believes this exactly". That is too simplistic.

But we know it's less than 50% and more than 20% say?

My point is merely this. If France is 50% muslim in 2050, only about 25% of the population will endorse sharia. Note these are worst case scenarios, 40 years of the current pace of change is likely to knock the sharp edges off Islam.

Here is a mail from a muslim who saw one of my vids on YT.

It's a bit long ... bit it does a good job of showing me chatting amiably but openly with the "other" side, as well as showing a really interesting response.

I've pondered what you said for a while.... particularly this...

"Clearly there are a variety of ways of interpreting something as convoluted as the Koran. My recommendation for Muslims remains, to find some way to crowbar the Koran into a moderate framework that sees women as equals, allows apostates to go their way without being beheaded and simply becomes acclimatised to a blaspheming secular society that cares nothing for your holy book or morals."

And, just hang on a cottonpickingminute... I think I am the embodiment of what you say Islam should be. If Islam does not believe women and men are equals, this is only in as far as 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus'. My wife is my equal in every way. She has her own job, she wears western clothes - although yes, she is what you could call 'modest'. She has her own money (because, dammit, she earns more than me) and an understanding of the family finances. I don't tell her what to do, as that would earn me The Look That Can Bore Through Your Heart At 50 Paces, and I like sleeping on the couch as much as you do.

Beheading apostates? Well, http://www.apostatesofislam.com/apostates.htm gives me the (probably false) names and e-mail addresses of apostates. Why am I not hunting these people down and beheading them? Simple. It is not required of a Muslim to do so. But don't take my word for it. Go watch probably the most respected Muslim on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X28J8-xt6hU. I think it was that great prophet of Islam, Jesus (pbuh), who said something along the lines of, 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'. And I can't say I disagree with that.

As for becoming acclimatised to a blaspheming secular society that cares nothing for your holy book or morals. I was born and bred in the UK. Lived my whole life here, along with 50% the Muslim citizens of the UK, according to the last census anyway.

I also reject the idea that Muslims should live in a country and not respect it's laws, as I'm sure do the vast majority of Muslims who do respect UK laws. When I vote, I vote over issues like the tax burden, health, education, crime, and, more so lately, foreign policy. I can honestly say I've never wondered who to vote for in order to get Sharia Law implemented. That said, I cannot deny that my morals stem from my Muslim beliefs, so perhaps unconsciously, Islam guides me somewhat in my political opinions...

I suspect I'm part of a generation that is going to effect the kind of 'changes' you want to see, but I don't see it as chainging, I see it as getting back to the way things should be. By living my life the way I do, I think I'm setting some sort of example to other Muslims. Ha! How's that for neo-jihadi-fundamentalism!!!

Take care, and thanks, writing this stuff helps me understand it better for myself!

35. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153391 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 12:43 pm

424. Comment #153383 by annabanana on April 1, 2008 at 12:38 pm

Muslim extremists cannot actually acheive their goals.

What has led you to come to this conclusion? I am genuinely interested. I'm not asking rhetorical questions here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tSeonq9lVM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0lRffYTStw

Sorry to dump these on you, but that is really the whole story, and easier than typing it all up again. Let me know what you think:-)

36. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153385 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 12:38 pm

Well to apply your foolish logic... How many will support Shariah in 2050?

Seriously, lets run with this. Honest no jibes, no sniping. I'm with Steve.

What is the rough % of muslims that support Sharia in France today?

37. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153379 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 12:35 pm

Fascism and Communism are life systems. They compete for ideological capital. The groups I speak of are systems of death. You will join them or die. Really.

I don't see that as relevant. Here is why. Muslim extremists cannot actually acheive their goals.

This is why all the analysis of the koran, the fatwas that are issued and what some guy said to you on a bus, just doesn't matter.

When you review the relevant strengths of the parties, it's no contest.

Concentrate on the good stuff you are suggesting, but lay off the scaremongering. All it does is encourage the worst sort of visceral reactions, even in fairly normal people, and it is not encouraging anyone to assist the downtrodden and oppressed of the world.

38. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153375 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 12:29 pm

By about 2050, at least those are the predictions of those versed in demographics.

Actually you'll find the YT I posted makes this exact point.

That is 40 years away, and I believe the projection is for the population to be about 50% Muslim. Aside from the fact that a lot can happen in 40 years, how many muslims in France currently support Sharia law?

39. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153369 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 12:26 pm

Any reason you've ignored my last couple of questions?

I was typing:-) Let me have a look and get back to you?

40. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153364 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 12:23 pm

As for Iran. Where did I say "Nuke them before they nuke us".

You didn't say those exact words, no. I was reacting to this :

"Then there is Iran getting nuclear weapons and ending their period of taqiyya and hitting Tel Aviv and Haifa with a couple of warheads. "

This seems a clear attempt to scaremonger, especially given what Iran and western security services have said about Irans capability.

I would suggest engagement, I would suggest support for democracy, and end to sanctions of Iran, a settlement to the Israel Palestine issue. But even after all that there may well be an enormous threat. I suggest we do something, instead of sitting about playing world of war craft.

Well I'm all for that, too, but we don't need to amplify the actual threat out of all proportion to make that case. I apologise if I misrepresent the actions you'd like to take, really. I guess if I actually believed the stuff you seem to believe, a pre-emptive nuclear strike might appear appealing. Maybe I'm projecting.

The west has all the money, weapons and the political power. The enlightenment has survived fascism (close call), communism (longer running, but not as close) and now what? Less than 10 attacks on Western soil in 5 years? This is the great threat?

Lets do all the right things, but for the right reasons.

41. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153351 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 12:15 pm

So I would say certainty is about 100%.

When?

42. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153335 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 11:58 am

I never advocated war or invasion. Not once. In fact I have been a constant critic of the Iraq War. I never suggested disregarding human rights. All my proposals involved due process. But please don't let facts get in the way of making your point.

Did I mention you in that post, was it addressed to you? It's not always about you Al.

I am thrilled you advocate due process. So do I.

43. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153333 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 11:55 am

393. Comment #153328 by al-rawandi on April 1, 2008 at 11:48 am

Then there is Iran getting nuclear weapons and ending their period of taqiyya and hitting Tel Aviv and Haifa with a couple of warheads.

This merely a variation of the ticking bomb argument with regard to torture. You are suggesting we take concrete action, to prevent a nebulous maybe.

Really, it's hardly more sophisticated than we need to nuke them before they nuke ... someone.

It's not unlike pascals wager. The possible downside of option A (Hell/an ABC attack) is so horrific, that no matter how unlikely, we default to option B (God/Attack them first).

44. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153329 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 11:48 am

By the way, Muslims brag amongst themselves about how France will be a Muslim country shortly. FYI.

I don't doubt it. Again though, how likely is this?

I don't believe every single stupid or terrifying thing I hear. I assign probabilities. What do you do?

45. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153327 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 11:46 am

But this is not the big issue! I believe Brian is right about the numbers give or take an order of magnitude. The big issue is the creeping loss, through accommodation, of freedom, democracy, human rights, creativity, happiness.

Spot on. This is the real challenge, and it isn't one that can be solved through war or invasion.

I'm all for movies like Fitna, I'm a massive fan of Pat Condells and I'm all for "telling it like it is". This however, does not include running scared, or being stampeded into massive human rights violations based on the mirage of a pending global islamic takeover. Sorry.

It is interesting that the most invested on both sides share the same delusion though. "Their" extremists think they can do it, and so do "ours". Both are obviously wrong.

46. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153322 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 11:41 am

I was wrong however, as an Atheist, you would be given a chance to convert, and failing that... beheaded. I apologize for overstating my case. Atheists have no place in Muslim society. Nor do polytheists.

That is not what you said. Here it is again.

"You can also choose to pay the jizya, or let them kill you."

That choice is not relevant to me. It doesn't exist now, and given even the most dire demographic predictions, it us unlikely to exist in my lifetime.

Thats all I'm saying.

47. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153319 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 11:36 am

Brian is telling me I don't know what I am talking about.

You seem well versed in Islamic law. Bully for you. However, unless it has some heft behind it, some means of becoming law in the western world, its relevance is about as meaningful as a comprehensive grasp of iChing or astrology.

All this talk of death, splattered toddlers and the imposition of shariah is designed with a single purpose in mind. Not yours neccesarily, but it is a classic meme you'll surely agree? It's purpose is to demonise and frame the "other".

The reality is this. Westerners have all the money, weapons and global political power. That is unlikely to change anytime soon.

I'd be happy to chat about the way forward once you've managed to achieve a measure of objectivity, you seem much to close to the subject for the moment.

48. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153307 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 11:20 am

The Jizya is an aspect of Shariah. It is an aspect which those who have advocated the overthrow of Non_Muslim regimes have said would be imposed once shariah is imposed.

It was not demonstrably false. The only thing demonstrable is your absolute ignorance on the matter.

I'm sorry to harp, but you are unlikely to make much progress convincing anyone of anything if you simply say things that any objective observer can see are clearly wrong.

As it happens I'm aware of Jizya (what semi literate Atheist isn't these days?), but I'm not subject to it, and given that Europe and the US possess the bulk of the worlds weapons and money, it seems unlikely that I will be subject to it anytime soon.

I'd also add, that since I've said almost nothing on the subject (other than noting not being subject to it or Islamic law in general), I fail to see how you could conclude that I'm ignorant about it. This seems to be something of a pattern ...

At a minimum, you've overstated the case surely?

49. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153276 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 10:36 am

You should believe that they are serious about killing you and imposing shariah. You can be sure they would like to die in the process.

I am sure some of them are. My point is you made an observation that was demonstrably false.

I do not have to choose anything with respect to Islam, I do not have to pay any tax. Do you understand now that your statement was in fact false, and merely an endorsement of anothers delusion?

50. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153269 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2008 at 10:29 am

That's true. You can also choose to pay the jizya, or let them kill you.

Thats not true either. Just more emotive fluff. There are real problems, real challenges why must you exaggerate?