1. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211379 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 11:52 pm

No dramas epeeist. I'm off on holidays so I probably won't visit the site for a week. I wonder if Joe will still be repeating the same inanities in a week?

2. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211341 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 8:02 pm

Don't look at me. I've given up on the rational debate angle. I reckon it's time to get nasty. :)

3. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211335 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 7:12 pm

The reasonable Brian English has left the building. The current occupier of my brain has this to say:

Kill them all! Let their god sort it out. If it exists.

That felt better. :)

4. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211332 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 7:07 pm

SRWB, are they coming up to you and telling you to believe a cracker is the body of a deity? If so, tell them it's only a cracker.
Is your mission in life to deconvert catholics? Maybe you'd better undermine the beliefs and faith that underpin belief in jeebus crackers.

I give up. Trying to be reasonable sucks. It's must easier being a knee-jerk responder. :)

5. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211330 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 7:05 pm

My little ill thought out rant above has given me an idea.

Let's see:

Unifying the idea of faith with emotional and physical investment.

1. Religious people always talk about having faith. Some describe it as meaning trust. Trust in Jesus.

2. Religious people invest heavily in their particular faith community. This has obvious benefits. Not least of which are community support, identity, belonging and others that contribute emotional pay offs. The costs are pecuniary, physical, temporal, emotional and require one to accept plainly wrong propositions about the world to prove that one is a strong member of the community.

3. What if having faith meant the undeniable emotional pull of not rejecting one's community, the investment one has made in irrational beliefs. Perhaps faith could better be described as fear of loss.

Thoughts?

6. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211326 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 6:57 pm

ed-words hold down alt and type 130 on the numeric key pad.

7. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211324 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 6:56 pm

PsyPro, I don't want to misunderstand you, but are you saying that because some Catholics did something, all Catholics deserve it?
As for the you know it, they know it part. Religious belief works by minimizing truth. It also requires costly investment in the community, i.e. tithing, demonstrating one's humility, weekly religious ceremonies, but especially claiming to believe the irrational. When a person has a lot invested in the community, and the hope of an afterlife, just pointing out that that cracker is no more than a cracker will push them into a corner. They're not just going to give up this investment because you point to the Elephant in the room, and I think it unlikely that driving them away will mollify the strength of their irrational beliefs.

Having said that, PZ will do what he will do, and I trust he'll have it all worked out.

8. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211317 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 6:39 pm

Gregg, you make it sound like a bad thing. :)

QED = Quod erat demonstrandum

The complete phrase is:

Quod erat demonstrandum, demonstratus est.

That which was to be demonstrated, has been demonstrated.

9. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211315 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 6:35 pm

By one sided I assume you're referring to religious characterizations of materialists/atheists/secularists as being amoral and all that? I guess some believers do that, though not all.
The thing is, if we attack them, that'll help their persecution complexes along as well....

10. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211302 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 6:03 pm

I'm all for standing up and arguing against their beliefs, especially in public. I think PZ and Dawkins among others are great at this. I guess I'm only against attacking people instead of beliefs.....

11. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211299 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 6:01 pm

Phil, you do know that on the south Pacific islands where cannibalism was practiced human flesh was called 'long pork' don't you? Because of the similarities in taste.

So, deep fried jeebus cracker may taste like pig.

12. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211298 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 5:59 pm

Dace and troodon. I think you both make good points in demonstrating the absurdity of the belief. If a cracker that's been transubstantiated has no observable differences from one that hasn't, how can one tell? and therefore how does one know there's a difference?

I'm can imagine one reply. you have to have faith....sigh...

13. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211286 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 5:39 pm

If Donohue really believed in transubstantiation he would be demanding scientific tests to prove his case, but he will never do that because he knows the whole concept is complete bullshit. I'm getting so sick of the attempts by religionuts to limit our free speech.

14. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211283 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 5:36 pm

I agree Goldy, but we can rethink our position and retract a statement where went overboard. Or we can act like I do, and dogmatically hold any absurdity once it's been expressed. :)

Poor bastard. The curse of 8teist is a strong one.

15. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211278 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 5:30 pm

Phil, good idea, I see a few minor problems with it. The whole obtaining of skin graft, and the assumption that transubstantiated jeebus tastes like skin graft. But all in all, it may work to convince Catholics that symbolic cannibalism isn't so wonderful.

Is it cannibalism or deity eating?

16. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211277 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 5:29 pm

So, you're saying that debate on an online website is an unguarded moment? I think people getting so angry that they lump a disparate group into one simple label, while understandable, may not be what we're aiming for in an 'oasis of clear thinking'.

Just my 2C.

Don't worry. I'm off on holiday tonight. When I get back in a week, I'm sure I'll be the knee-jerk atheist of old.

17. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211270 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 5:19 pm

Goldy, you seem to be confusing a description with a prescription.
It is natural for humans to generalize (description). It's not necessary that we just assume that's the only way we can act (prescription).

Now, where's my beer?

18. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211266 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 5:14 pm

Goldy, if generalizations cannot but be made, then we're just as irrational as the rest. :D

I know you are against generalizations, so that remark isn't aimed at you. ;)

19. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211261 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 5:07 pm

If Catholics hadn't been so aggressive to Webster Cook then I wouldn't agree with trying to offend them by showing disdain for their crackers,

20. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211257 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 4:55 pm

elad-usa. You've put into words pretty much my point of view. It's about getting people to see the inconsistencies in their world view. Not attacking them or straw-men. Although, now and then, a some well aimed ridicule can work. Just not all the time.

21. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211256 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 4:52 pm

There is a shit load of in-group/out-group stuff going on here. Catholics may have batty ideas, but so does everybody. I think we should treat the majority, who are decent people differently from those who are stark raving bonkers. Of course, if all we do is resort to attacking a billion odd people with the blunt instrument of ridicule. Don't be surprised if our assumption of a single them becomes self-fulfilling.

We can discuss beliefs with the majority who've never thought or justified their beliefs. If they value reason, they'll experience cognitive discomfort and may inch along to our point of view (if we have one.) If we attack their fellow religites, they may just retreat to the trenches to support the brothers.....

22. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211247 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 4:40 pm

Nite Clod.

23. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211246 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 4:38 pm

Gold Radesq, pure gold. :)

24. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211245 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 4:37 pm

Clod, about that aroma-reflexology person for my wayward fingers?

25. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211242 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 4:28 pm

I don't know, Steveroot - It sticks in my craw that religious fanatics get so much license to promulgate absurdities; that we should"respect" their beliefs because it's a religion.

26. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211193 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 2:52 pm

Steve, perhaps you mean casual? Causal doesn't seem to parse well....

27. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211188 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 2:49 pm

Joe after you've debased yourself, perhaps you can find a proof of god for us. If you can do that, then you might convince us. Assuming the proof is convincing.

28. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211179 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 2:44 pm

Agreed, but they do have some respect in their communities. A bit like dotty old aunt Betty who pisses her pants and insults foreigners. Betty won't be left out alone just because we laugh at her. In fact, we could drive those with whom we'd like to convince that Betty best be left in a home to keep Betty by their side if we laugh too much at Betty. After all she's family, just like O'Donahue is Catholic.

That made no sense, but I couldn't stop my fingers!

29. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211170 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 2:39 pm

You're probably right Carto. But there are people who hold that faith trumps knowledge, and it won't work with them.

30. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211161 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 2:35 pm

Joe, the argumentum ad baculum doesn't win anything. It shows that you have no argument. Please prove that god exists and we'll take notice of you. If you can't do this, you're just wasting your own time. So far you've shown nothing. It's sad.

31. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211152 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 2:26 pm

Carto:

There is no way on earth they could be ignorant about the fact that their metaphysical account were not universally held and respected.

32. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211140 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 2:19 pm

Joe, any proof of god yet?

33. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211139 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 2:18 pm

Gregg, I think we're in agreement. I'm just having a period where I'm into the idea of defeating someones beliefs using views they hold instead of just saying their beliefs have been defeated and they should just stop believing....I shouldn't read book on how to argue logically. :)

34. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211125 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 2:11 pm

Joe, who cares what Oktar says? Show that God exists or else nobody will take any notice of you.

35. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211122 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 2:08 pm

Joe, please, there's no science in the Quran. If everybody in the world believed in the Quran it would not make god exist. Either god exists, or god doesn't exist. The Quran has nothing to do with this question. Please show that god exists.

36. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211115 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 2:04 pm

Gregg,

They choose to believe in this absurdity, they should expect to have the piss taken out of them.

37. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211110 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 1:58 pm

Joe, if you can't prove that any god exists then nobody is going to take notice of you. Please be honest and say that you have no proof of gods. The Quran is not proof, it requires a specific god to exist before it is of any value to people who don't believe in it.

38. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211090 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 1:44 pm

Decades ago, I used to be a Catholic. I have to say I never really understood that bit.

39. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211079 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 1:40 pm

Old Kalam. Premise 2 begs the question. Premise 1 is doubtful at best.

40. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211072 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 1:33 pm

Irate, without having read anything and not knowing what the argument is about (as per usual) I'd say Steve is talking about rational debate. In such a debate people start with opposing conclusions and try to convince each other of the truth of their viewpoint. They do this by using propositions that the opponent accepts and logically showing that holding these propositions leads to an absurd conclusion, so the opponent has to readjust his beliefs. What they don't do is walk up and say that conclusion the opponent holds is wrong. That's begging the question.

Of course, if Steve actually holds that a cracker is the flesh and blood of a deity, well, that's just plain fucking crazy!

41. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211059 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 1:21 pm

Joe, there are many books that talk about many gods. They can't all be right. So, we need to prove that your god exists and that he agrees with the Quran before we take any notice of the Quran. So, you have to prove that your god exists first.

Prove it please. :)

42. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211049 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 1:05 pm

Joe, prove God exists. You cannot do this with the Quran as the Quran is just a book. First prove God exists.

43. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211039 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 12:58 pm

My question to the anti-gun crowd, as I have asked over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over is to show me that legal guns are the cause of these high murder rates, or they are intrinsically linked in a way where prohibition would fix it. And finally show me prohibition will work.

44. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210779 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 4:09 am

Thanks Mitchell. I'm still not sure that I want to face earnt super powers, or conferred super powers.

Anyway, I'd say that 2 of 3 posts I make can be skipped over and 50 percent of the rest aren't worth reading.

Well, it's time I went to bed. Night all.

45. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210774 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 4:04 am

Is that why the US has the highest murder rate in the western world? Just asking.

46. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210771 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 4:02 am

Broshiesq, here in Aus, murder rates decline because we have more police. The populace has no access to handguns and stricter control on rifles and shotguns due to a massacre in Tasmania 12 years go. It's strange how you use stats, but tell others off if they use stats, especially a mathematician like Bonzai.....

47. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210769 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 4:00 am

Just noticed your post Steve, and put down a typically brainless comment. :)

48. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210764 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 3:57 am

Super powers can be a great thing, but then again, you might be like the Hulk. It may have been better if you didn't even know I existed, then I probably had more of a chance of living a long life, unless I piss off CD....;)

Peace!

49. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210759 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 3:53 am

Steve, no change on your blog and no comment on mine. What's going on?

50. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210758 by Brian English on July 15, 2008 at 3:52 am

Mitchell, although we've disagreed. In light of your revelation of super powers, I'd just like to say I've always respected you. :)