1. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163216 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 4:29 am

OK, it's now almost 4:30 in the morning, and I need to go. Good night, everybody.

2. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163215 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 4:28 am

Roland (2271)

"Focusing on some hypothetical afterlife is distracting the here and now, the only life you have, and times run out and you wasted all your free time with prayer and feeling guilty of sins. And you waste a lot of sacrifices of llambs, rice bowls or whatever, which you could better use to feed your starving kids rather than the street dogs and rats."

I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous. You think that really applies to anybody who believes in a higher power?

"No I said for a BETTER afterlife as the current life in poverty, starvation and suppression is not very satisfying.
So instead of 'opium' maybe better call it valium for the poor masses. When you visit India with around half billion people living below the poverty line , you will see that this Hinduism and the hope for a better afterlife as rich person is just calming down social unrest, similar in Christian third world countries or the Christian history of the dark ages.

So to join both statement you might only feel better to bear your current low life based on the hope of a better afterlife."

And would you want to take that hope away from them? Or are you somehow going to solve their problems, and make that hope unnecessary?

3. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163211 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 4:23 am

Vaal (2269) --

You would prefer that I pretend to know something I have no way of knowing? And you call my statements inane?

4. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163210 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 4:21 am

phatbrat (2265) --

If not for a higher power to create souls, then souls must create themselves, correct? I don't have that much confidence in myself, to think that I'm powerful enough to have created my own soul.

5. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163208 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 4:18 am

Steve (2264)

I'll give you an explanation for how God created matter out of nothing as soon as you give me an explanation for how matter created itself. It's a paradox, and it gets us nowhere.

6. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163206 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 4:15 am

irate (2260)

Actually, you should work on your fact-checking skills -- he made the claim that people who believed in a higher power were throwing their lives away.

7. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163201 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 4:12 am

epeeist (2257) --

Do you think that there cannot be such a thing as a truth for which supporting facts cannot be found?

8. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163199 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 4:10 am

Epeeist (2253) --

If that's the definition of "delusional" you've chosen to use, then you've undermined Dawkins, as the fact is, belief in a higher power is a generally accepted reality.

9. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163192 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 4:05 am

Quetzalcoatl (2252)

"Your comment is interesting, in that it suggests that only religion can give people a true meaning for their existence. That raises the question: religion in general, or just the one that you believe in?"

You sure come to a lot of incorrect conclusions -- I have made no claim of religion having anything to do with this.

10. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163190 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 4:03 am

Steve (2251) --

I am free to choose what to do, because I don't think that what I think is right and what God would think is right are at odds with each other.

Well, in the larger sense, perhaps the idea of eternal life isn't itself the meaning of life, but it does give some people a context of what they should work towards in life.

11. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163184 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:54 am

Phatbat (2249) --

I understand that Ben Stein's movie is probably deserving of some criticism (I myself see it's shaky on a number of things).

I think you're a little premature in asserting that ID is completely devoid of merit. While I believe in evolution, I also find it to be astoundingly difficult to believe that the first form of life could have assembled itself randomly. The first form of life would need the incredible luck of not only being able to sustain itself somehow, but to randomly contain the correct genetic sequence (and the means to use it) for another form of life that would also be capable of sustaining itself and reproducing itself. I don't see how anybody could shoot down the idea that a higher power got involved at that point, unless you operate under the assumption (for some reason) that there is no such power.

As for my first post -- well, I wasn't saying that you all are my intellectual inferiors... but some of you clearly presume that I, and people like me, are beneath you (not you in particular -- you've been quite decent). My point was simply an observation of some of what I see going on here... it had nothing to do with how moral I think I am.

12. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163172 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:40 am

Philip (2244) --

Sorry, I don't mean to insult anybody... I'm sure most atheists find happiness their lives. But in a grand sense, an atheist must think they exist for no real reason, which I find very disheartening.

13. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163168 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:37 am

irate (2243)

No, it's not remotely connected to theology.

You say atheism is non-belief in God(s)... what I am using as a definition is that atheism is disbelief in God(s). It is therefore the belief that there is no God (or gods).

14. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163164 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:31 am

Brian (2240)

"Could you give a (universal/theistic) reason for existing that is logical and doesn't beg the question?"

Perhaps we exist because a higher power wills it. Perhaps this higher power finds enjoyment or fulfillment in watching its creations.

15. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163162 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:28 am

Sorry if I missed any posts directed to me, but I'm skipping ahead to tonight's comments, for now...

To Brian (2238) --

Is it really the typical behavior of a person who is not bitter towards another person to criticize every little detail about them?

16. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163160 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:20 am

Vaal (2089) --

"Ah, please advise us what you will be doing for eternity in the afterlife. I would be very interested to know. And what age do you go to the afterlife at, the age you died, or as a youngster. What ages will your parents be? Will you be married for eternity, or like the Muslims are you going to have non stop sex with 72 virgins for ever?"

How would I know? Perhaps it's whatever you want it to be, assuming the powers that be feel you deserve a reward.

"So, you need the threat of eternal damnation otherwise you will be out raping, looting and in the case of the insane, flying planes into buildings. What a sad indictment of humanity. It is a wonder how our species managed to survive all those tens of thousands of years before the advent of the despotic Abrahamic desert God."

I don't; some do. I think almost everybody behaves differently when they know somebody is watching. Have you ever driven over the speed limit, only to slow down when you see a police car? Most people do (including myself). I would never rape, murder, etc., even if I was an atheist, and I could never get caught, and I'm fairly sure just about all of you are the same way, but not everybody is that way.

"I would say quite an accurate characterization. as evidenced by your own post."

What an odd definition of "evidence" you have...

17. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163150 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:09 am

Steve Zara (2070) --

Well, how would I, or anybody, understand such a mechanism?

If you allow the theoretical existence of a being that could create matter out of nothing, and could create a soul (which is a necessary component of an afterlife), I think you have to concede that this being would also likely be able to create and manage an afterlife, correct?

18. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163144 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:05 am

Diacanu (2069) --

First of all, why would following such a thing, which you call a lie, necessarily amount to throwing away one's life?

Will any lie do? That depends on how damaging the lie is. You seem to presume that belief in a higher power is always very damaging. Prove it.

19. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163136 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:57 am

Greyman (2067) --

"So it doesn't matter what anyone believes as long as persuing it provides a sense of fulfillment?

Fair enough. I'll continue to believe truth matters and find fulfillment in it's persuit though."

OK, I can respect that. I don't think this is a matter where truth can be proven factually, though, so you may end up having to go with what you think is best for you, if you ever want to settle on anything.

20. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163129 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:52 am

Roland_F (2062) --

"Must be a very sad existence to life only in the hope of an afterlife, regret each thought about joy just in the hope for an better afterlife rather than enjoying the here and now : the only life you have."

Why would you presume that this is necessarily the case for people who believe in a higher power (or powers)? Is it inconceivable that such people could actually enjoy their lives despite believing in said power(s)?

"This hope of a better afterlife is just the 'opium for the poor' to bear the suppression of the ruling cleptocrats and clerics."

Only poor people hope for an afterlife?

"Learn about Hinduism and Buddhism, their central Karma function is working without a God as all knowing judge to decide the level of rebirth."

I'm aware of the Buddhist position on God, and I find it illogical. Many Buddhists do too, and there is no general agreement on the involvement of a higher power (or lack thereof). You're mistaken about Hinduism holding that higher powers have no bearing on the process.

21. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163123 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:46 am

Greyman (2059) --

"It does not follow that some higher power exists because people hope for a continued existance."

Yes. I never remotely implied anything contrary to that. What I did say is that such beliefs bring fulfillment to many people, whether they are accurate or not.

22. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163120 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:42 am

Diacanu (2058) --

Can you really call writing books, painting a painting, etc., a meaning for your *existence*? They're things you can derive pleasure out of, but on a deeper level, they don't explain why we're here. If one is an atheist, they can't logically think we exist for a reason, can they?

23. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163118 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:39 am

To Quetzalcoatl on post 2056 --

It's my belief that when atheists attempt to "convert" people to their beliefs, which some undeniably do, they are depriving people of a real meaning to their existence, whether that meaning is true or not.

24. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163115 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:33 am

Reports of my death were greatly exaggerated. I'm back, as I said I would be, to answer questions that were posed to me before I went to bed (after staying up until 3:40 am, by the way). I'm not sure if I'll have time to get to them all tonight, as it's after 2 am right now, but I'll try.

OK, the first thing that a couple people asked was for me to give examples of the high and mighty attitude I claimed to see on this board. Well, let me start by pointing out the tone of pretty much the entire article these posts are under. Richard Dawkins comes across as an arrogant, bitter, and condescending man. An example of that (besides the slogan of the board):

"He [Ben Stein] certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough."

Of course, there's also the fact that he implies that people who believe in God are insane...

Now, getting to comments by actual posters (without naming names):

"I thought this movie would be good for a laugh, but apparantly [sic] not."

"I can't say this surprises me. I do want to see this movie, mostly out of morbid curiosity... mostly to laugh at the idiocy of the far right"

"Ah, I've been waiting for this all weekend. What a lovely snort of derision in the face of these increasingly desperate and absurd buffoons."

"Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree there, sport. These pitiful lying asshats deserve nothing but sarcasm, mockery and ridicule. They're not worth anything else. They're mendacious morons and to give them the slightest respect is to unjustifiably dignify their bullshit and thus help perpetuate it. Wise up."

OK, I think I've demonstrated that there's a noticeable amount of condescension going on here. Most of you are keeping things civil, and some even lighthearted/funny (like irate_atheist), but it only took sifting through a couple pages to gather those things. I don't have all night to gather a more *scientific* basis for my claim, but that's what I have given the time constraints. I'd also like to add that implications that I was stumped by this pretty simple question seem condescending to me.

Anyway, please have a little understanding of why I couldn't (and can't) stay too long here. It doesn't mean that I'm trying to hit-and-run, but that I'm working while I obtain a master's degree, and I don't have very much free time.

25. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162530 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:43 am

It's 3:40 in the morning where I live, believe it or not. Unfortunately, I don't have the ability to go without sleep entirely. Good night. Celebrate my going away until I come back tomorrow, if it makes you feel better.

26. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162526 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:38 am

clodhopper --

How unlike an atheist, making up your mind before the facts were all in.

27. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162525 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:36 am

Diacanu --

How do you know they threw their lives away, even if it was a lie? What if pursuing that lie that they believed in made their lives more fulfilled?

28. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162522 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:33 am

Vaal --

Who said anything about a harp and a cloud?

As for being good simply so you can be rewarded in the afterlife -- well, I never said that was my motivation. It undoubtedly keeps a lot of people in check, though. Yes, some do use this mentality to justify suicide bombings, but by and large, this way of thinking benefits the world as a whole.

As for your whole last paragraph... what a horrible mischaracterization of the lives of people who believe in the afterlife.

29. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162514 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:27 am

Steve Zara --

The mechanism in my mind is that a higher power manages those processes.

Do you have a different explanation?

30. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162512 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:24 am

epeeist --

I was linked here by the site for Ben Stein's movie.

Now, what was that challenge you had for me, again? Can you please restate it, remembering I'm an American and unfamiliar with sailing terminology?

31. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162508 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:21 am

Quetztalcoatl --

I don't consider an atheist's existence to be meaningless. Why would I?

If you believe that we are here for no reason, where is the meaning in your existence?

I'm looking to find specific examples of the behavior I'm referring to (which I did see, believe it or not), but this thread is huge and I'm a little short on time, as it's late here. I will get back to you on that, though.

32. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162494 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:07 am

Steve Zara --

Is there any other conceivable mechanism for such a thing to happen? A person must think very highly of themself if they believe they have the power to do such things without the aid of some greater spiritual force.

Regarding "hope" vs. "meaning" -- this hope is what lends the meaning. What's your issue with that?

33. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162492 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:04 am

Diacanu --

Whether it is so or isn't so (which nobody can know for certain), it gives meaning to people's existences nonetheless.

34. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162490 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:01 am

Billy --

Are you trying to figure out where I'm from? I'm actually an American, if you must know.

35. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162488 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:58 am

epeeist --

Can you please restate the challenge -- I'm not sure I understand your meaning.

36. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162482 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:49 am

Steve Zara --

The notion of a continued existence after death, along with the idea that the manner in which one's life has been lived will influence the level of quality of said existence adds meaning to many people's lives.

The idea that people will be reunited with loved ones who have passed on adds great meaning to people's lives.

Neither of these seems possible without the existence of some higher power, does it?

37. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162475 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:43 am

Styrer --

Physician, heal thyself.

38. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162473 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:41 am

Quetzalcoatl --

You have a skewed interpretation of what is and is not obvious. It was mere hyperbole.

Do you think the notion that some people here seem to enjoy looking down on others is absurd?

39. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162468 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:33 am

Epeeist -- everybody has to start somewhere, don't they?

40. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162464 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:30 am

Quetzalcoatl -- I was unaware that commentary on the tone of many people here was beneath your involvement. I apologize, oh Great One.

41. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162454 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:16 am

Bravo, my fellow atheists! Let's all give ourselves a big pat on the back for our intellectual superiority over the masses of peons that share our meaningless existence, yet like to delude themselves into thinking life is about anything more than self-praise and the belittling of inferiors!