451. Christopher Hitchens on Real Time with Bill Maher

Comment #138037 by black wolf on March 3, 2008 at 7:26 pm

- the actual role of the Anglican Church in ending Apartheid you assert Hitchens omits, Mr. Gottlieb? I'll tell you: just about none. There were a few or a few handful of clerics (Tutu f.i.) who joined or founded groups opposed to the government, and were often violently suppressed. The Anglican Church didn't even figure as an organization until after Apartheid had been abolished. The system fell because of unrest, bombings and international economic sanctions. In comparison, the AC was a no-show. Do some research next time please, Mr. Gottlieb.

-""On the True Doctrine: A Discourse Against the Christians" was written in 178 A.D. by Celsus, an eclectic follower of Plato. The Christian deity, Celsus proclaimed, is a contradictory invention. He "keeps his purposes to himself for ages, and watches with indifference as wickedness triumphs over good," and only after a long time decides to intervene and send his son: "Did he not care before?"" An intelligent and accurate statement by an early critic, Mr. Gottlieb, after you throw another pointless "militant atheist" at the modern authors.

- Hume refutes the Watchmaker analogy, and he didn't like dogmatists and intolerant zealots, ok. "Hume never tried to topple all the supporting pillars of religion at once." Gottlieb would prefer no such attempts be made today either. Newsflash for Mr. Gottlieb: The world's knowledge has increased tremendously since Humes' time, and the actual and potential threat from religious zealotry has also. Should we be tolerant of the intolerant? Mr. Gottlieb apparently implies that since logic doesn't faze the religious, we shouldn't bother trying that or anything else until they go away. But Gottlieb doesn't want them to go away at all.

- look how those militant atheists ignore the tremendous religious resistance to the Nazis. Well actually, ignoring something that is laudable but insignificant isn't that much of a misrepresentation, especially when compared to the false assertions you are throwing around paragraph by paragraph, Mr. Gottlieb. Critics of Church history have found that religious resistance to the Nazis was marked by adaptation and agreement to Nazi policy.
The quote Gottlieb brings up to assert the contrary, ""It is striking how many protests against and acts of resistance to atrocity have . . . come from principled religious commitment."" by Glover, is an interesting one. As I don't know the book, I have researched to find the full quote and context. I have found this:

http://www.boundless.org/2000/features/a0000386.html
Focus on the Family
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/arn/pearcey/np_centuryofcruelty1299.htm
Discovery Institute
http://www.sydney.catholic.org.au/Archbishop/Addresses/2005921_1181.shtml
Archdiocese of Sydney

Every single time someone brings this quote up, it is on an apologetic and blatantly obviously biased site. Furthermore, commenters on similar sites use this quote without citation marks - plagiarism. Curiously, the omitted part in the middle of the quote is never included by any of them. This should raise some suspicions in the mind of the observant reader. I don't need to point out that the DI or the CC are not exactly renowned for their honesty in the past, do I? Oh, just did. By the way, the Archdiocese deletes the omission marks completely, thus misrepresenting an already mined quote. Did you copy and paste that quote, or did you dig the shaft yourself, Mr. Gottlieb?

- I have no idea what the last paragraphs of the article are for. Yes, atheists have different views depending on their professions, an inclinination to faith may or may not be hard-wired into the brain, and atheism may or may not be spreading globally. The last bits come across as somewhat condescending, implying naiveté on the atheist's side, which would be in tune with the previous parts of the article, so that's what I suppose it is.

452. Christopher Hitchens on Real Time with Bill Maher

Comment #138036 by black wolf on March 3, 2008 at 7:26 pm

Have a look at this article for a more balanced view of the state of things.

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2007/05/21/070521crbo_books_gottlieb

Pretty unimpressive. I wrote a long review of the article, but failed to save it before my browser crashed. *sigh*
Here's the short version:
-Gottlieb repeatedly uses the word 'militant' describing the outspoken 'new' atheists, deliberately as a derogative term to implicitly lump them in with terrorists or violent zealots

- what Gottlieb omits is that the circumcision study he mentions summarizes its results by stating "Despite the encouraging new statistics, Auvert, the study leader, warns that his report is far from the final word. "It's too early to say male circumcision should be integrated in a plan to fight the spread of HIV, because the study has only been done in one place."", "Health experts also worry that many men might think circumcision will completely protect them from AIDS, causing them to take increased risks in their sex lives."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0726_050726_circumcision_2.html
"But Tom Elkins, Senior Policy Officer at the National AIDS Trust warned: "There is a real danger in sending out a message that circumcision can protect against HIV. This is not the case and could lead to an increase in unprotected sex."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6176209.stm

- Gottlieb is also ignorant of the causes of the Northern Ireland conflict. Contrary to what he asserts, the groups and individuals who first started the violence were religious and did so because they were segregated by settlement into denominational areas. The Penal Laws first and foremost restricted religious minority rights in order to enforce Anglican rule. The fault lines of the ensuing conflict ran exclusively along religious divisions. Harris and Hitchens are correct; religion causes divisions and encourages other divisions subsequently.

- regarding Harris: "...if he is right, why did Al Qaeda not arise, say, three hundred years ago, when the Koran said exactly what it says now?"
A breathtakingly stupid rhetorical question from Gottlieb. There were suicide attacks throughout the history of warfare and assassination, but only today can terrorists possess weapons capable of inflicting losses on a ratio of 1:200 or more. From Samson to the Crusades to the Belgian Revolution, Gottlieb favors to ignore all this in favor of scoring a cheap point and misses. Additionally, regarding the same statement, he ignores the fact that 300 years ago, Islam was economically and scientifically about on par with the West, and since then has continuously lost ground. It is losing out on its central promise, World Domination and paradise on earth as a consequence of that - a fact that hugely increases the likelihood of drastic measures.

-"But, in 1998, a fifth of non-Christians in America told a poll for Newsweek that they, too, expected Jesus to return. What does Harris make of that?" Why should Harris care. This is irrelevant to his point, namely that it is the fundamentalists, not the non-Christians, who look forward to this event and the promised carnage and genocide that follows

- "And there's a dreamy incoherence in their conviction that moderate forms of religion somehow enable fundamentalist zeal and violence to survive. Are we really going to tame the fervor of an extremist imam's mosque in Waziristan by weakening the plush-toy creed of a nondenominational church in Chappaqua?" Incoherent dreamery? Yes, on your part, Mr. Gottlieb. You are the one who dreams that throwing another ridiculous rhetorical question at your readers is an argument. And then you even answer your bogus question correctly: "If there were no religion, it's true, neither house of worship would exist." What was your point again? Oh yes, that Harris and Dawkins are wrong in asserting that without religion, religion wouldn't cause fanaticism. WTF?

453. Christopher Hitchens on Real Time with Bill Maher

Comment #137885 by black wolf on March 3, 2008 at 2:43 pm

Are you sure Buddhists don't have anything like fatwa's for cartoons that mock their mediative tradition?? ;-)

I'm sure there's some way to project some bad karma their way, if you meditate hard enough.

454. US Treaty with Tripoli

Comment #137877 by black wolf on March 3, 2008 at 2:40 pm

since there isn't a word for addressing more than one person directly.

Have you heard of "Hey, everyone"? :)

TL;DW
short for 'too, long, don't write' in teh internets

I think the two terms can be used with the same level of bigotry and malice, or at least could, especially in your country.

not as well as *shudder* Liberal

455. Darwin's dangerous idea

Comment #137533 by black wolf on March 3, 2008 at 5:19 am

Religious people breeding profusely 'for Jezus or Allah' will eventually mean less science, less advanced technology, prayer instead of medicine and so on.

You did miss something. In the world today, prosperous and scientifically / technically advanced nations will always subsidize those who are underdeveloped. Educationally challenged and less enlightened countries will always receive the fruits of reason and rational thinking basically for free, because certain nutjobs are willing to let their own population starve just to let their ideology survive. Which then survives because the population gets food and medicine from outside the country for free, and is too weak to revolt for all the foreseeable future.

456. Darwin's dangerous idea

Comment #137530 by black wolf on March 3, 2008 at 5:12 am

Unless, of course, the margin of ignorance between the US and Bulgaria and Slovenia widens, which isn't impossible: in 1993, the Iron Curtain had recently fallen and both were former Communist countries. Now, both are members of the EU and (in all likelihood) benefiting from EU structural and cohesion funds, which could plausibly lead to better education in these countries. I don't see much that encourages me to believe that education might have improved in the US since 1993.

A decline of communism as a governing ideology has lead to an increased influence of religion in every country affected. I can't tell how large the effect actually is, but there are recurring news where churches and religious groups do attempt to influence public opinion, legislation and freedom of speech and expression in most former communist block countries.
However, from what I see in former East Germany, the restrictions on religious expression and activity under Communism have lead to a steep decline in interest for religious matters in the population. Churches are struggling to survive everywhere; not to be confused with the physical buildings of historical value.
I'm very glad that we have a scientist as chancellor, and many scientists in political office.

457. Fleabytes

Comment #135662 by black wolf on February 29, 2008 at 7:35 am

But, as you and I are well aware, the book itself is factually incorrect and self-contradictory. Hardly suggests the prior requirements are going to be met, does it?

But can't you see it must contradict itself and be false occasionally? If it were all 100% correct, how would we have the choice of refuting the wrong parts and picking the nice cherries? Without the choice, we can't have free will. The more errors we can find in the book, the more it proves how much God loves us.
Got it now?
Or do we need to call in the Inquisition?

458. Fleabytes

Comment #135431 by black wolf on February 29, 2008 at 12:37 am

Will someone please fill me in on the Christian response to this because I have no idea really what their answer would be.

I really don't either - I looked at a multitude of theology sites and sermons, and just about every answer is different. Basically, the idea is that man needed to be sinful in order to understand good and evil (they assert that man knew better from worse before that). Because God wants love for everything, but man needs to be free (because God loves him so) to choose, he needs the ultimate choice to redeem himself, by accepting Christ. That's all. The interpretative and contradicting bits in between are left to faith and individual understanding. Adam and Eve, by the allegorical account, were just the easiest way those desert people could imagine to explain this stuff.

459. Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts

Comment #135162 by black wolf on February 28, 2008 at 3:50 pm

from Goldy's link:
"No," one of the boys replied, "because honour matters even more than religion."
and
One Muslim community leader told me that if he could talk to those boys, I met at the shopping mall, he would explain to them in no uncertain terms that killing one's own sister - or anyone for that matter - has nothing to do with being a good Muslim.

Apparently some people are missing the point. The only concept these youth answer to is archaic honor and respect. These themes are incidentally very common in German rap music by immigrant descendants. As that one guy says, it's the only thing they've got left. They don't care for religion much, except where it confirms their view without restricting their lifestyle. They don't care for the law either, because the law takes their right to hang around wherever they wish, publically humiliate girls and women, graffiti, drug dealing and petty crime. I know many of these allegations sound like bigotry, but that is how very many of these guys spend their days, and what I know from personal experience.
What they do respect are stronger guys (that's why very many are into martial arts), elder brothers, fathers. Many can't speak or write proper German or Turkish, so once they start dropping out of school early, more follow and there's no turning back. Some can be hopefully brought to a decent education and job training individually, but that takes weeks and months of effort, and the youth offices just don't have the budget or personnel to accomplish that with all of them.
Seemingly also more and more Germans from the condo areas join them in their perception of Ghetto Glory and 'us vs. everyone else' idealization.

460. The Giant Tortoise's Tale

Comment #134005 by black wolf on February 27, 2008 at 6:15 am

'now that is a very good question, please come back when you have a good answer, i'd be interested to know, maybe you could ask your pastor, just why would god make such an ugly creature??'

Pastor's answer: "...mumblemumble...mysterious ways... mumblemumble... school board phone number..."

461. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #132958 by black wolf on February 25, 2008 at 12:59 pm

As we predicted several weeks (months?) ago, the interest of the 'Flea book' authors is not to bring new arguments to the table, but to cash in on the market. Each one of them pretends to be the best, if not first, one to actually refute atheisms validity. They don't care if they succeed, as long as they can make gullible readers and customers delude themselves to think they have. Evidence of this are visitors to this site and others who have typically recently read one of these books and start posting, seriously believing they've got some novel and irrefutable butthole-logic to deliver. At least a few of them are willing and able to listen long enough to at least learn something.

462. Church is paying a high price for its celibacy rule

Comment #132800 by black wolf on February 25, 2008 at 8:05 am

As recently as last week, a German Catholic archbishop criticized celibacy as outdated and scripturally unnecessary. So far, I haven't read of any call from Rome to retract this statement.

463. The coming religious peace

Comment #132278 by black wolf on February 24, 2008 at 2:41 pm

I will be fine with religion when it adapts to the point where it is indistinguishable from rationalism.

464. Fleabytes

Comment #132253 by black wolf on February 24, 2008 at 2:14 pm

How is an official religious war defined? Enquiring minds want to know!

Yes indeed. Apparently theist argumentation centrally employs the notion that they, meaning the opinionator and his agreeants, get to define it as follows: a war that is in accordance with the scripture central to the branch of the religion of our choice, and the interpretation thereof which we choose to be the correct one.
Thereby, a religious war to be labeled as (one-sidedly) waged by Catholics must be in accordance with the teachings of JC, every single participant must believe in the Resurrection and Virgin Birth, and follow direct orders from the Pope, who in turn must follow the above set principles.
Ergo, religious war does not exist, say the religious, when large portions of combattants are employed mercenaries or the war is allegedly being waged for reasons other than spreading or enforcing dominance of a religion or diminishing dominance of another. By separating the 'true' religion from the gaining of dominance through warfare of proponents of that religion, implicitly defining the religion of choice as un-political per se, one can easily pull off that sleight-of-hand, simply and conveniently ignoring and falsely invalidating when armies yell 'for God and Country' or 'Allahu Akbar' at the top of their lungs constantly.
It's always about something else, always a mere scapegoating of poor old 'true' religion.
The proper definition should IMO be something like, a war in which a significant portion of combattants and involved political leaders are religious, profess their faith, and find the respective act of, and reasons for warfare agreeable to and in written or verbalized form in statements and interpretations thereof within and of their faith.
Religion is always personal. War does not exist without persons.

465. Over half of Britons claim no religion

Comment #131654 by black wolf on February 22, 2008 at 11:50 pm

@138
Actually, they already put it into practice: look at how Hamas did in Gaza and see what happened recently. They tested every single one of the points you suggested and failed.
Now imagine that on a world-wide level. A rampage of billions of people forcing their way across the borders, looting everything remotely useful.
Civilization will completely disappear.
Until someone comes up with a method to develop more and better food, medicine, heating, clothing, a method based on logic and reason...

466. Huckabee Wants A 'Faith-based' Constitution

Comment #111907 by black wolf on January 16, 2008 at 1:31 am

...they behave (or will behave) like bulls in the china shop...

Isn't it funny that in Germany the same proverb states 'like elephants in the china shop'?

467. The OUT Campaign has its own Flea!

Comment #106409 by black wolf on January 2, 2008 at 9:13 pm

Sin Sin Sin Sin
Wonderful Sin
Atooooooooonement!
JesusJesusJesusJesus
Siiiiiiiiin!

The most ludicrous merry-go-round ever built.

468. Submission, 'Part 1'

Comment #105607 by black wolf on January 1, 2008 at 7:59 am

Before I signed the petition with an informed comment on what is actually forbidden by Koran and Hadiths (any depiction of humans or animals), I was careful to observe that the petition's goal was to get 10,000 signatures. As it had long achieved that goal, dropping a little education in their midst was the best I could do.

469. A War On Science

Comment #105603 by black wolf on January 1, 2008 at 7:41 am

FXR wrote:

and then made up the man and the rib woman and then drove them out of paradice for eating an apple how did they multiply?

It seems a lot of incest would have to be involved. Is that why "brother and sister" are such popular terms with preachers?

I assume that many preachers, who are either scientifically ignorant or deliberately lying, stick to a literal interpretation of the Eden story.
I've been told and have read that the modern version somehow reads the story as metaphor for anthropological and cultural change from the hunter/gatherer basis to civilization. Don't ask me to explain how that interpretation is valid in the light of the fact that the writers of these passages hadn't the slightest idea about anthropology. But that's how 'reasonable' christians view it.

470. Submission, 'Part 1'

Comment #105198 by black wolf on December 30, 2007 at 9:22 pm

This is the comment I left in their petition:
"Allama Muhammad Munir (of Damascus) has clearly stated that the photos of the modern age fall under the category of pictures. He says: 'The words of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) that every maker of the photo would be tormented on the Day of Resurrection, include every artist whether he makes pictures with the help of his hand (with pencil or with the help of colour paint) or with the help of camera.
Please remove all pictures, drawings, paintings and photographs of people and animals from Wikipedia, just as every follower of true Islam knows it is forbidden and will not make any or keep any at home or in his books."

Thanks for the great idea, theantitheist.
I guess we're going to hell. Oh, well.

471. Richard Dawkins on 'Have Your Say'

Comment #105186 by black wolf on December 30, 2007 at 8:43 pm

I looked up the Emoto water thingy. His results have been scientifically tested multiple times and failed every time. They were never reproducible. Emoto himself has graduated in political sciences, so he's not even remotely a natural scientist. He has no scientific publications.
But his pictures and books sell. He knows how to sell woo-woo - he's an 'alternative physician'.

472. Submission, 'Part 1'

Comment #105177 by black wolf on December 30, 2007 at 8:14 pm

Riz, thanks for the link. It prompted me to look up if that nonsensical doctrine is actually existant, and I found this:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/pictures.html
"# Contrary to what most Muslims think, no pictures of people or animals are allowed.
# If you would consistently follow Sharia Law in the hadiths, then get rid of all your pictures."

More evidence that Islam is not only misogynistic, but also anticultural in general.
No pictures -> no medicine, no anatomy, no zoology, no biology.

If Wikipedia succumbs to these idiots, it's one step further to global barbarism. And I mean pre-stone-age barbarism. Not even bronze age.

473. Bah, Hanukkah

Comment #105165 by black wolf on December 30, 2007 at 7:48 pm

qbal47, adding to your post, Hitchens means that the Hellenization, which was not the purely benign process he's trying to make it appear as, as along with great philosophy and culture it also resulted in forceful suppression and reconsecration of temples to the Hellenistic pantheon, had it lasted would have all but eradicated older faith, therefore obliterating monotheism of the Abrahamitic tradition.
Hitchens writes: "The Seleucid Empire...had weaned many people away from the sacrifices, the circumcisions, the belief in a special relationship with God, and the other reactionary manifestations of an ancient and cruel faith."
What Hitchens does not state is that Jewish animal sacrifices were replaced with animal sacrifices to the Hellenistic gods, and that the special relationships with gods were just as prevalent in the new, imposed culture.
If Hitchens knows how Hellenistic/Olympian theism was practically an improvement to worship of Yahwe in detail, he chooses to shed no light on it here. It may well be that Hellenistic rationalism and advanced philosophy were an improvement to the local culture of Judaea at the time, but they were still hot on sacrifing animals to gods, listening to astrologers and imposing their religion on others.
Wiki:"Hellenistic religion is the context in which Early Christianity arose and developed, and Christianity as it emerged in the 4th century seamlessly continued many of its characteristics."

474. Could there be a Darwinian Account of Human Creativity?

Comment #105113 by black wolf on December 30, 2007 at 3:29 pm

I get the impression that Billy C.'s got a crush on Steve Z. ;)

475. Happy Newton Day!

Comment #104997 by black wolf on December 30, 2007 at 9:54 am

...You see a car in the driveway, the mail's been picked up and there is a light shining out of a second story window... Someone's probably home.

This seems to be a good analogy at first glance. But I think these accounts of miracles warrant a slightly different analogy:
There's a light at the corner of your eye when you blink, which you think means there's a house with a light on in the second floor, that house has a driveway and a mailbox, in which lies deposited the true message of it all.

476. Happy Newton Day!

Comment #104969 by black wolf on December 30, 2007 at 7:30 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun#Critical_evaluation_of_the_event

This gives a decent picture of scientific explanations for the supposed miracle. Additionally, light refraction phenomena are an explanation for why it could be seen from farther away villages too.

477. Pope's exorcist squads will wage war on Satan

Comment #104964 by black wolf on December 30, 2007 at 7:12 am

Maybe some of you don't know that the Pope was head of and still has close ties to Opus Dei, which is the official continuation organization from the previous Inquisition. They're not allowed to torture heretics anymore (to be fair, their opinion is that they wouldn't want to anyway), but it seems to me that they just need (desire) to take out God's will on someone, so nowadays they pick on the mentally ill, just like Jesus did personally. It's way safer too, as the mentally ill tend not to file lawsuits.
From the atheist standpoint, as most of us don't believe demons exist anyway, it looks this way: primitive (the modern word for that is 'underdeveloped') societies believed in all sorts of deities, spirits and demons. Religion picked that up to gain street cred and kept it that way. So today we're left with religions that propagate demonic possession as a reality and people believe in demons because they say so.

p.s. The Jesus story tells how he allegedly drove demons out from a possessed man. These demons then were allowed to enter a herd of pigs which jumped into the sea and drowned.
I assume the real account would look more like: A prophet waved his hands and yelled a lot of nonsense, thereby scaring the pigs shitless and making the poor man regain his senses via suggestive therapy. Note that there is no account that the man actually was permanently healed. It appears that Jesus and his followers were satisfied for the moment and left, smugly basking in their short-term success.

478. It is possible to be moral without God

Comment #104959 by black wolf on December 30, 2007 at 6:53 am

I think to actually observe how 'God's morality' looks in practice, we'd need to have an adequate comparison. So far we have only societies with different proportions of believers in different religious teachings, and the more religious ones don't look so good to me, in terms of social and domestic violence and other manifestations of immoral behavior. Believers like to point out the relatively high engagement in charity work going on in western societies, and thereby want to imply that it's our Christian cultural background that makes it so. My view is that that's simply so because of the relative wealth of our societies (meaning European or culturally stemming from Europe, like the Commonwealth and North America) where we can afford to be charitable without denigrating our personal and in-group economic position.

479. It is possible to be moral without God

Comment #104953 by black wolf on December 30, 2007 at 6:34 am

Good comments over there, Brian. I think you're handling the discussion very well. I frequently engage in similar discussions (or comment slugfests). My impression is that most believers think that they have a firm understanding of philosophy, while actually they're simply using and often overstressing or distorting the rather narrow philosophy they've been educated to use.
Sometimes I find myself in the odd situation where a believer has a more detailed and broader knowledge of philosophy and throws around citations that imply that he's actually read it all (possibly if even he's getting them from some clever apologetic website or a single book). That puts me in a queasy situation where sometimes I know I could refute arguments from famous philosophers by using my common sense, but then it would feel inadequate if I don't respond in similar fashion. What to do? Read everything from Plato to Confucius to Kant and Popper, and hold the responses until that's done, or have a go just as I'm sitting here?
Actually I'm glad that's the way we're able to engage in discussions, because it's great use of our freedoms and fun too.

480. Pope's exorcist squads will wage war on Satan

Comment #104693 by black wolf on December 29, 2007 at 6:09 am

Actually, I have a theory that this "demon possession" thing is actually a faith-head achilles heel. Few talk about it. I suspect most of them are slightly embarassed about it (like in the same way they dont mention hell). Its the sort of subject they should be challenged on up front and have their noses rubbed in. Certainly, the only ones I ever hear talking about this sort of thing are the real charismaniac whack-jobs.

Spot on. This exorcism BS should have been the retort when the Catholic bishop told RD on German live television that they "didn't teach this anymore" when speaking about hell. It belies all their assertions of modernization. I think the host and the audience would have been suitably embarassed.

481. Pope's exorcist squads will wage war on Satan

Comment #104686 by black wolf on December 29, 2007 at 5:55 am

Denied or not, I wasn't surprised, given the Pope's career history. Thanks Mike for bringing it up before I had to ;)
Note that the denial says only that the Pope wouldn't be ordering his bishops to hire the exorcists. What it does not say is the fact that exorcisms are standard practice for the Catholic church when psychiatry isn't available.
It also does not state the fact that the Catholic church trains hundreds of exorcists per year per country. What they believe is that there can be possession, mental illness, or both (the former causing the latter). When they can't diagnose mental illness, the exorcism is up.
This is like hiring an astrologer who happens to have read a few Sagan books to find out about a certain planet. When said astrologer can't calculate all the gravitational influences and athmospheric density and composition of the planet, he uses its horoscope instead. Exaggerated? I don't think so.

While an exorcism may actually work for certain mental conditions when the patient is a faithy, it does not do so because there actually are existent demons, but because auto-suggestion and similar phenomena exist. I suspect the clerics know that very well, but they prefer to "altruistically" keep the flock uneducated for their comfort. After all, it's always been much more comforting blaming external "evil forces" than admitting one of your family or yourself have a serious mental health issue.

Remember the endorsement of exorcism the next time the RC advocates improved education for underdeveloped countries. And if you're present, laugh in their face and point at them.

482. Response to Dinesh D'Souza op-ed

Comment #104582 by black wolf on December 28, 2007 at 10:43 pm

D'Souza is also one of those that argues that it was under the Christian influence that gave Newton the desire to discover the laws that govern the order God had placed in nature.

As Neil Tyson eloquently pointed out, Newton's book De Principia explicitly clarifies that he didn't dare to uncover more of 'God's order' after reaching a specific point, when he had the skill and intelligence to do so. Newton's discontinued endeavor is clear evidence that faith is an intellectual barrier more than a motivation. That is, faith may motivate people to overcome difficulties that they could have dealt with anyway, but apparently also compels the same people to refrain from following their reason consequentially.

483. The Four Horsemen: on Christmas

Comment #104419 by black wolf on December 28, 2007 at 1:13 pm

Steve said:

"That is a very difficult question. It reminds me of the issue of the way certain German cities were bombed in World War II. I Just don't know the answer."

al-rawandi said:
That is a cop out. Hitler invaded his neighbors, and was a threat when he was on the offensive. These two events are dissimilar in the extreme.

I write:
While Steve wasn't being specific, I think that's important. While bombing Hitler's industry and military facilities was necessary and crucial, indiscriminately dropping incendiary and explosive bombs on Dresden or Hamburg when Germany was irrevocably losing was not, no more than the V-2 attacks on London, and no less terrorism. My grandmother, a social democrat nurse who never became a Nazi party member in spite of severe pressure, was traumatized by these bombings to the degree that she would actually hide and seek cover during the New Year fireworks displays for decades when she was alone.

484. The Pagan Christ

Comment #104287 by black wolf on December 28, 2007 at 9:23 am

I think it is capability of the human brain used in both logic and science. And of course not employed by the religious.

Pope Benedict said that "religious conversion should take place through the use of reason. His larger point here was that, generally speaking, in Christianity, God is understood to act in accordance with reason, while in Islam, God's absolute transcendence means that "God is not bound even by his own word", and can act in ways contrary to reason, including self-contradiction. At the end of his lecture, the Pope said, "It is to the great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures.""
wikipedia
He loves to talk about "Christian ideals of faith and reason", describing the present secularized Christianity as "rationality without God." For him, the Islamic version of theology is something like "God without rationality."

The funny thing is, he actually thinks that nonbelievers would fall for this kind of nebulous equivocation.

485. Survey finds most Americans believe Jesus born of virgin

Comment #103980 by black wolf on December 27, 2007 at 12:29 pm

I like this one:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/king_david/god_kills_70000_israelites/2s24_25b.html
and this:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/king_david/sauls_family_dismembered/2s21_14.html

486. Russia prohibits denial of Santa

Comment #103968 by black wolf on December 27, 2007 at 11:52 am

Hilarious. Every time some such ridiculous policy is passed, we tend to think 'it can't get more moronic than this surely'. And then every time it does.

487. Top Ten Stories of 2007

Comment #103859 by black wolf on December 27, 2007 at 6:21 am

I just found a new one for the list:

Benazhir Bhutto is dead.
A suicide murderer shot her and then blew himself up, killing 20 more people.
Ironically coincident, on another board, a faith-head wrote:
Aren't believers the real humanists?

488. Disquiet over schools' moment of silence

Comment #103103 by black wolf on December 24, 2007 at 9:59 am

"I have been contemplating something recently. We get together and buy some sizeable tropical island. We create an atheist nation-state. Immigration is based on not being a fucktard. If you are a swimsuit model, we can forgo the immigration standard."

Why buy it? Claim that No God promised it to Unbelievers, the People of No Holy Writ, 100,000 years ago and annex any part of the world... of our own choosing, 'cuz we have free will, of course.

489. Disquiet over schools' moment of silence

Comment #103095 by black wolf on December 24, 2007 at 9:52 am

What is a secular reason for it? Outside of religion where is the precedent for such a thing?

I just found something:
http://www.myspace.com/cephalgy
This band's new album is called 'Moment der Stille' - Moment of Silence
;)

Or this:
"In recent years a trend has developed (particularly with English sports fans) to fill the traditional minute of silence with a minute's applause. Psychologically this is seen by some to convey a fond celebration of the deceased rather than the traditional solemnity. Recent recipients of the minute's applause include international footballers George Best and Alan Ball. The death of Ray Gravell, former Llanelli rugby club president and Welsh international, was also marked in this way at various rugby grounds in Wales and the UK."
wikipedia

490. Girl, 16, dies after hijab dispute with father

Comment #103087 by black wolf on December 24, 2007 at 9:44 am

DiscoverTheObfuscation:

Preaching is not appreciated and not allowed here.

491. Priest who committed suicide for rebirth cremated

Comment #103082 by black wolf on December 24, 2007 at 9:41 am

Methinks he found exactly the appropriate way of proving his faith and invalidating Faith conclusively and compellingly. Way To Go!
Come on Believer, you can do it! Your faith is stronger, and you've got the right religion to boot! At least one of you will make it!

Before I get sued, this was not an incitement but sarcasm.

492. Disquiet over schools' moment of silence

Comment #103066 by black wolf on December 24, 2007 at 9:24 am

But advocates of the laws say they give educators a tool to focus their students' attention and provide children a chance to reflect on either personal issues or the challenges they might face that day.

15 SECONDS???? Gimme a break. Do they think we're in a 1953 soap opera where it takes that long to resolve solutions for problems?

"It's certainly a student's constitutional right to engage in silent reflection, even if it includes prayer," said David Cortman, senior legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, a nonprofit Christian law firm that has filed briefs in the Sherman case. "It's as if the mere mention of the word 'prayer' suddenly taints the law."

Sure it's his right. He can also do it on the school bus, before class, in between classes, during class, during exams (which I'd do if prayers worked at all), after school. XV SECONDS of silence!!!!
Btw, yes the word 'prayer' does taint the law. Not 'suddenly', but for at least the last 100 years.
*rant* Not only does it taint the law, it also taints the way the rest of the sane world looks at your country. It also taints the way your mind works. *rant off*

"My one friend was really angry because he liked having that moment to think about his life. He's going through a tough time. His parents are getting divorced. His brother's not very nice to him," Dawn said.

Oh Dawn, Dawn. Does your friend also tell you how he manages to resolve his tough problems and personal issues by thinking for 15 seconds in daily intervals? If he can, his problems to him are NOT even remotely worthy of the adjective 'tough'.
I'd not be very nice to my brother if he insisted to behave like that. Most students need 15 seconds to read and comprehend a single sentence, bloody hell!
Sounds harsh, but that's what reality is like. And I might add, I know how he feels, and 15-second- brain-activity is a safe way to permanent therapy necessity. For life.

493. 'Christian God is not to blame'

Comment #102908 by black wolf on December 23, 2007 at 9:42 pm

"In July, more than 500,000 Christians will descend upon Sydney. I ask you all to welcome them into your hearts and perhaps, as at the Olympics, into your homes.... We should remember the sick and the sad, the lonely and the angry and reach out to help them."

Besides the inns being full, this will definitely fill brothels, bars, clubs and pubs. Here in Germany, the WYD festival when the Pope visited resulted in a significant economic boost for the latter business branches. A significant increase of used condoms found on public greens was also announced.

edit: On the other hand, I can't quite see the whole $40 Million being brought back in by visitors, so likely the whole thing will be a government subsidised festival for an organization that has billions of $ of assets in Australia alone, with a red number on the account balance for the local communities. By my calculation, every single visitor including children will have to spend $800-$4000 (!) to bring the subsidies back in taxes, depending on their number.

494. 2 fleas for the Christmas week

Comment #102722 by black wolf on December 23, 2007 at 1:13 pm

This week's? Hardly, the book is half a year old.

Publisher's note: "This ebook is an important and convincing response to the conclusions of Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion. The author believes that the concept of a transcendent entity as the source of morality and ultimate justice, is an essential foundation of rational human life and society.

Without a transcendent authority and standard, the numerous pursuits and values of humans are merely peculiar delusions characteristic of the human species. Keeran points out that although Dawkins does not believe in the existence of God because of the supposed lack of scientific or factual evidence, he and like-minded others inconsistently assert the existence of numerous other non-scientific realities elaborated by the author in 55 chapters.

Atheism claims to be simply the absence of belief in a god or gods and therefore contributes nothing to human value, meaning of life, or moral conduct. These must be borrowed from other arbitrary non-scientific beliefs which then become the gods and religions of atheists ranging from nihilism to humanism and even buddhism and wiccan."

Dear Mr. Keenan, please summarize for us the pain and suffering caused by the moral codes which we pray to. You may conveniently add up the figures of those mentioned above.
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to do so, I need to clean up my altar of humanism now and pray a while.

495. Good God! A politician who doesn't believe...

Comment #102128 by black wolf on December 21, 2007 at 4:04 pm

... a bumbling reactionary who leads a blameless life.

They actually exist? Wow, I thought they were a matter of faith.

496. The Pagan Christ

Comment #102123 by black wolf on December 21, 2007 at 3:47 pm

Let 'em have "new spiritual" approaches anyway they want. No more SonOfGod and going to hell scaretactic BS, along with no need for subsidies, church taxes or buildings to gather in. Because we know they're unable to sort it out and agree on Teh Truth, they've gotta live with the problems they created. Do they have a 'Death By Mindf*ck' category at the Darwin Awards?

497. For the Love of Christ

Comment #102120 by black wolf on December 21, 2007 at 3:40 pm

"If you sin, you better have the courage to bash Jesus' face in!"

Hmm. Yeah, I reckon I could take the scruffy hippie, actually. In fact, I could totally nail him.

Not a chance. He's always coming coming back. Besides, how you gonna nail him on the lake's surface? ;)

498. For the Love of Christ

Comment #102118 by black wolf on December 21, 2007 at 3:37 pm

Sick. Makes me wish for the times when every nation had its secluded islands to deport such idiots to. This guy along with Chuck.
Possibly, sane governments could pool some money to buy an atoll for these nutters. And definitely patrol the waters for outbreaks of human viruses.

499. Debate between Michael Shermer and Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #101692 by black wolf on December 20, 2007 at 6:59 pm

Don't bother replying to the 'phile. He's probably just one of the usual drive-by posters. At least his languich skillz are typical of their kind.

500. Whale 'missing link' discovered

Comment #101684 by black wolf on December 20, 2007 at 6:31 pm

Dr Benway, you're wrong.
Given his stance on promoting traditional clerical value, his answer would be:
"Nimirum illic es muris in aether, bardus!"