451. The Out Campaign

Comment #60186 by scottishgeologist on August 1, 2007 at 9:11 am

David Wee Flea said, regarding the gay minister:

"but I do wish you would at least get your facts right before spreading tittle tattle like some Glasgow fish wifie."

Ehhm, David, I was told this some time ago by a Free Church Minister! A minister in the Presbytery which covers Paisley!

So someone, somewhere is lying. OK, lets be charitable, maybe he just got his facts wrong.

Which just goes to show, you cant believe or trust a word that preachers say - Mind you that's hardly a startling revelation...after all they take solemn ordination vows regarding the Westminster Confession then just ignore the bits they dont like.

And when it comes to tittle tattle, the average member of the average church congregation will beat me hands down any day! I'll admit it, I'm no match, I concede defeat!

Anyway "Glasgow fish wifie?" Sounds a bit sexist to me... but then, if you believe that this sort of stuff is "the word of God", then its hardly surprising:

"Ephesians 5:22-24: Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife...wives should submit to their husbands in everything. (NIV)"

452. The Out Campaign

Comment #60111 by scottishgeologist on August 1, 2007 at 3:14 am

irate_atheist. the Flea accused me of hatred in a previous thread - cant remember where it was. These types seem to get SO UPSET when you start questioning their cherished irrational beliefs. They've got this persecution complex.

Anyway, for what its worth, the Flea has a reputation for this sort of combativeness. I have a lot of friends associated with his and similar churches, so I know quite a lot about it, and when you check the recent history of Free Church events, you'll find the Flea, the Free Church "Enforcer" dealing with the opposition (from within his own ranks) with the same spirit you get here. He just loves a fight. He goes out of his way to be provocative.

And he always gets the last word, to the extent its like the Monty Python "argument sketch"

I suppose he has to, as he is trying to carve out a niche for himself as the UK's leading christian apologist.

453. God-Fearing People: Why are we so scared of offending Muslims?

Comment #60109 by scottishgeologist on August 1, 2007 at 2:59 am

I think the problem is that Islam is now where Christianity used to be in the middle ages. Since then, with the inexorable advancement of science, reason, education and the enlightenment, together with the rise of standards of living in western countries, christianity is now watered down, liberal and cherry picked till theres no substance in it. As a consequence it is no longer the blood thirsty death cult it used to be.

(Of course it could be argued that some of the stuff that comes out of America actually runs counter to this)

Remember Luthers famous quotes on Reason:

"Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has" and "Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding"

I would argue that Islam is caught in the same mindset, and give it a few hundred years, it too will get watered down, liberalised and ultimately diappear (well, maybe..)

Only trouble is, can we wait that long? The religious nutjobs in the middle ages had swords, bows and primitive firearms. You could only do mass killing for your god if you had large numbers of people.

The one hope I can think of is that a lot of those who CLAIM to be Muslim are actualy just nominalists who were brought up that way, and not devout jihadists.

Which perhaps goes back to heathan2's original comment

454. The Out Campaign

Comment #60015 by scottishgeologist on July 31, 2007 at 1:23 pm

Steve99

The behaviour of the churches over the years towards gays has been dreadful. One of the worst offenders in my part of the UK, is the Free Presbyterian Church. Read this if you can bear it:

http://www.fpchurch.org.uk/Magazines/fpm/1999/March/article1.php

Now, note carefully in that article the name of Dr Donald Boyd, a real hardliner for "biblical values" and "family values". He was involved in some sort of incident with the gay community in Inverness many years ago over something he said but I can remember the details.


He was sacked for adultery a few years later:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1091632004

The hypocrisy is almost palpable.

And in wee flea's own church, the situation isnt any better. The minister of Paisley Free Church came out as gay and had to leave - this was just last year.

And then there was this lovely incident involving a church elder (again in wee fleas church) in an affair:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news/tm_headline=my-cheating-wife-is-not-a-jezebel&method=full&objectid=19234577&siteid=66633-name_page.html

And yet, these same people get all hung up on sex and try to lecture other people about what goes on between consenting adults.

The whole thing reeks of hypocrisy

455. God-Fearing People: Why are we so scared of offending Muslims?

Comment #60012 by scottishgeologist on July 31, 2007 at 12:31 pm

Or maybe the moderate and peaceful ones arent quite so moderate and peaceful? After all those nutjobs who tried to attack London and Glasgow recently would no doubt have appeared moderate and peaceful to the people that they worked with instead of being jihad-driven fifth columnists.

Who knows how many of this type are in our midst?

456. The Out Campaign

Comment #60006 by scottishgeologist on July 31, 2007 at 12:14 pm

Naturalist1, this is fascinating. Tha link is awful. Now let me get this right, Wal-Mart make a big deal of their Christian principles dont they? Founded by a christian and the ethos still continues?

So how do they square marketing these "graven images" with the 2nd commandment: "You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" Exodus 20:4

Or is it just another example of subscribing to the rules but only obeying the ones that are convenient? Like signing up to the Pope as antichrist but not believing it?

Bah!

457. The Out Campaign

Comment #59980 by scottishgeologist on July 31, 2007 at 10:07 am

gr8hands,

Your comment about passing gas in an elevator reminds me of the famous "Pastor Gas", Robert Tilton. There is a video here that is hilarious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtW5upD5oW4

For those that are unfamiliar with this guy, Tilton used to put on these ridiculous affected facial expressions, like he was farting.... honest. Tilton was one of those "prosperity theologians" who reckoned that poverty was the result of sin.

Wiki article here if you want more. Being wiki , the usual health warnings and E&OE applies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Tilton

458. The Out Campaign

Comment #59962 by scottishgeologist on July 31, 2007 at 8:37 am

Hey David, chill a bit will you.

I was a faith head as well at one time, I am quite up to admitting it. Maybe you guys should spin it round a bit, you know like these black guys that like to use the N word. "Proud to be a faith head" "Faith heads with 'tude" Yep, a lot of scope there.

And yes, religious belief IS indoctination. Presentation of testable empirical evidence is science and education. Presentation of either religion or politics is indoctrination. Besides whats the problem? Pauls letters to Titus and Timothy are full of references to doctrine. If teaching doctrine isnt indoctination then what is it

The point I was making which you dont seem to want to address is that Dawkins et al have got the religious types in a tail spin. They are scurrying about trying to get the upper hand again. And the extent to which Dawkins is referred to on your own web forum is proof of that. People are getting sick of the excesses of religion, of whatever colour, and are taking a stand.

Beardist? Pogonophobic, please. Yes there is such a word. Actually, that was just a throw away bit of banter. But there is a more serious side to this. I was first aware of it several years ago - I went along to a "mens meeting" organised by a local charismatic group. (of course at the same meeting , there were women present -doing the dishes, preparing the food, in their typical evangie covenantal role)

Anyway, I digress, almost 75% of the men there were bearded - it stood out like a sore thumb (not the beards, the fact that there was so many of them) And I've noticed this elsewhere - even among liberal type groups, you get a lot of beards - I am sure it is well above average.

Question is why? Are they following some Old Testament thing? Strange. Esp since something like 80 - 90 % of women hate the things according to one piece of research that was done:

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_120779.html


Anyway, I dont actually hate beards - gimme ZZ Top any day! and Darwin would look silly clean shaven...

459. The Out Campaign

Comment #59908 by scottishgeologist on July 31, 2007 at 4:21 am

Quetz

All Free Church ministers sign a formula which states:

"I do hereby declare, that I do sincerely own and believe the whole doctrine contained in the Confession of Faith approven by former General Assemblies of this Church to be the truths of God; and I do own the same as the confession of my faith"

The Westminster Confession of Faith states UNEQUIVOCALLY that the Pope is the antichrist. It also states 6 day creationism, but thats another debate.

This "pope as antichrist" is a considerable embarrasment for these "trying to be hip n trendy" ministers in the Free Church, of which Robertson is probably one of the leading lights.

Of course, they NEVER mention it if they can avoid it. Just like they dont preach about Hellfire, YEC, 6 day creationism and other messy subjects they dont really believe in.

But its still there, they still signed up for it, they just practice blatant hypocrisy. But thats no surprise is it?

Of course, what they SHOULD do is either campaign to have the ordination vows ammended, or else propose a "Declaratory Act" which would alter the church's position on certain items. Or leave and find another church.

Actually, there WAS a Declaratory Act passed in 1892 which led to a schism. It was rescinded several years later. This Decalaratory act relaxed some of the subscription to the WCF, but caused huge trouble at the time.

Anyway, this sort of stuff is like nailing jelly to the wall. Stick to free thinking!

460. The Out Campaign

Comment #59894 by scottishgeologist on July 31, 2007 at 3:27 am

AdrianB, that Christian Yellow Pages thing doesnt surprise me - these prople have a ghetto mentality. I know a guy, a nice guy as it happens who is an elder in an evangie church - he has NO non-christian close friends. All his socialising is done round his church and other para church groups. He is also extremely wealthy, surprise surprise - typical of the "fish on the back of the private registration SUV" type.

Absolutely no life outside his church. He lives in a ghetto, a middle class, educated, "fish on the SUV" posh suburb ghetto.

About as far removed from the sort of people that the Jesus of the bible associated with as its possible to get.... But hey, he's "saved" He "knows " the Lords blessing. He's alright Jack.

Aye, Billy, that avatar. I was looking for one and just happened to come across it on a site of free avatars.

I like yours as well. Twatt church. Brilliant.

461. Richard Dawkins on Hardtalk

Comment #59885 by scottishgeologist on July 31, 2007 at 2:58 am

Goldy, yes it WAS Bush senior who came out with that ludicrous stuff in 1987. There is a page here about the whole sorry affair:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm

462. The Out Campaign

Comment #59866 by scottishgeologist on July 31, 2007 at 12:49 am

Looks like the Flea is back from his summer indoctination camps

Never mind, we are not disappointed, his style is the ususal condescending sarcastic "so obviously christian" that we've come to expect.

The problem with the faith heads is that they have had "the ball at their feet" for too long and now that they are being challenged, they dont like it. Not one bit.

They are running around like rabbits caught in the headlights. You want proof? Just go to the Fleas own church forum:

http://www.fcosonline.org/index.php?action=forum

And guess what is the most common word on the page? No not "faith" not "church" not "sermon". Its Dawkins.

Great isnt it, an evangelical church website with Dawkins name all over it. I wonder what the good christian visitors to it think. Probably not a lot actually, since it is so heavily censored (sorry, moderated) that it is next useless. Anyway it is little more than David Robertsons personal web fiefdom.

And no doubt his church magazine will go the same way since he is now the editor of it.


Pwned! as they say...

BTW, why do so many evangie types have beards? Ever noticed that? Solidarity with their muzzie co-faith heads maybe....

463. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59862 by scottishgeologist on July 31, 2007 at 12:30 am

Maybe stats on religion would be better in another thread, but since this thread is fairly hot right now, then this might be the best place to catch attention :-)

Take the question: "How many Christians are there in the UK?" Or what % is Christian?

The definition of "Christian" is so flexible it is almost worthless. I remember, during my faith head days someone telling me that their (evangelical) minister was "definitely" a Christian. Eh? Huh? If he's a minister then by definition surely he MUST be a Christian. Nope. Not by evangie standards.

Only those who have that "blessed assurance" those that are "born again" "saved" those that have had, and heres the critical bit, a "Conversion Experience" are True Christians (TM, as Chris Harper would put it!)

This definition, which after all is the evangelical biblical one, reduces the percentage of True Christians considerably.

Taken to its extreme logical conclusion, a huge percentage of the people who "go to church" (and that includes a lot of ministers and elders) every week are going to Hell. After all, the great Victorian evangelical preacher CH Spurgeon pointed out that the "saddest road to hell is the one that runs past the pulpit"

Just as well the whole thing is bullshit...

464. Rapture Ready: The Unauthorized Christians United for Israel Tour

Comment #59569 by scottishgeologist on July 29, 2007 at 5:06 pm

Richard Dawkins said: "Senator Lieberman is presumably a good specimen of mainstream, sensible, middle-of-the-road, moderate religious opinion."

If you research Lieberman, an interesting picture emerges. His wikipedia entry is good (Now before anyone says anything, yes, I know, wiki is not necessarily ABSOLUTE truth and is frequently hijacked, but this entry reads OK to me, and besides, there is nothing really contentious in it) What it points out is that L is liberal on a lot of stuff, but conservative on foreign policy. He is also an orthodox Jew.

That should ring alarm bells.

HE is passionate about Israel, so that would fit into the pre-milennial, dispensationalist, armageddonist paradigm.

I have actually met some of these pro-Israel, armageddonists here at home. Tend to be charismatic, right into "prophecy" and all that BS. You know, hotlines to God "I am getting a word from the Lord..... "

The big danger as far as I can see is that these f*ckwits together with the bearded AK47 waving nutjobs in the middle east will manage to engineer their armageddon-fest and the whole area will start sprouting 'shrooms.

Of course, the end result will not be Billys " blasphemer on a stick " coming to save the day.

The end result will be millions dead, the environment f*cked, world economy in recession, millions of acres of uninhabitable land, and the same old hatreds as before...

The only good thing would be the certain non-appearance of Billys blasphemer on a stick. Mind you, I am sure the Bushite neocon armageddonists would still have an answer. "his timing is not ours, besides, it is perfect.. we will know in eternity. Praise his holy f*cking name..."

Lets face it, there is no limit to religious stupidity.

465. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59436 by scottishgeologist on July 29, 2007 at 3:39 am

Hey! You know how when you visit this site, the first thing that you aim for is the comment list? Well, normally, when there is a solid block of ten comments on the same topic, it means:

1) The Flea has said something
2) Some seriously idiotic fundie has said something (hang on did I repeat myself there.....)

But no, this time its different - this big red A is obviously contentious. Never mind. At least no one is going to get tied up by masked guys waving AK47s and RPGS, and threatened with a head chop.... I hope.... for being an "A"-ist or maybe a nonconfomist non "A" ist.... Look theres a schism already!

Actually, I quite like the idea, but I'd like to see it extended a bit. After all, Landover Baptist have got some good ideas for other merchandise. The absolute best one has to be this:

http://www.cafepress.com/landoverbaptist.14755900

The "My Burning Bush Classic Thong"

Anyway back to the subject: Chill folks, its only a T shirt... :-)

466. Rapture Ready: The Unauthorized Christians United for Israel Tour

Comment #59240 by scottishgeologist on July 28, 2007 at 1:52 pm

Brings to mind Sam Harris's comments:

"In the US, 22% of the population are CERTAIN that Jesus is coming back in the next 50 years, and another 22% think that it's likely. The good news of Christ's return, though, can only occur following desperately bad news. Mushroom clouds would be welcomed. "End time thinking," Harris said, "is fundamentally hostile to creating a sustainable future."

Its bad enough when this sort of religious lunacy determines what they play on the banjo on the verandah: when it directly influences foreign policy, it starts to get scary.

467. How could God allow 26 pilgrims to die in a crash?

Comment #59183 by scottishgeologist on July 28, 2007 at 1:09 am

There was an incident a bit like this in the north of Scotland last year - 3 people killed. They were from a Free Church youth camp (David "Wee Flea" Robertsons church)

Old man and 2 Peruvian boys killed. Story is here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/5230666.stm

Pretty sad and sorry tale.

And of course very little attempt at a "god of love" explanation. I remember looking for some sort of thought provoking answers, but no. Just the usual "his ways are above ours" "he has a plan" "questions that we shouldnt ask" "his understanding is infinite" "sin obscures our understanding of such things" "gone to be with their Lord"

In other words the usual, pathetic, worthless BS faith head responses to tragedy and suffering.

Someone (on another thread) actually touched on the reasons for this ludicrous refusal of pastors in particular to accept the obvious "emperors no clothes" answer: they have invested so much of their lives in "faith" , in this baseless, worthless delusion, that if they were to say "hey, you know youre right" they would just at a stroke write off their entire lives up to that point as worthless.

I wonder how many actually have real doubts, but are actually trapped in the whole delusion and dare not deny it? Like gays who feel oppression but dare not come out due to the fear?

Often wondered about that.

468. Face to faith

Comment #57762 by scottishgeologist on July 21, 2007 at 12:33 am

The comment: "There are good grounds for arguing, as Steve Bruce has done, that conservative religious groups are generally ineffectual in achieving their aims, whether through peaceful or violent means."

Conservative evangelicals in the USA have been very successful at getting the right (yeah, I know...) President elected and influencing foreign policy.

The nutters behind the 9/11, Oct 12th 02(Bali, remember?) and 7/7 attacks were pretty conservative I would argue. And in bringing about paranoia fear and daily hassle to civilisation, very successful.

Just think what islamist terrorism has actually cost the West over the past 5 years.

They may not have draped a burkha over the statue of liberty yet, (YET note...) but they have been very successful in other ways.

469. Islamic Creationist and a Book Sent Round the World

Comment #56960 by scottishgeologist on July 18, 2007 at 12:51 am

Hah! That Pharyngula link is great - shows them up for what they really are. And I love PZ's final comment:

"I have such a low opinion of these contemptible vermin that I don't think there's any risk that they will even feel a fleeting sense of shame."

Go on Richard - top that one! Only kidding!

470. Islamic Creationist and a Book Sent Round the World

Comment #56957 by scottishgeologist on July 18, 2007 at 12:47 am

Yet again, the religious right nut job creationists find themselves with something in common with the islamist nutjobs.

Getting to the stage where its become hard to tell thee two apart...

471. Fears Grow Over 'Mega Mosque'

Comment #56693 by scottishgeologist on July 17, 2007 at 1:10 am

Osiris

This sort of thing has already happened (according to this any way):

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/islam/story/0,,651748,00.html


"AK-47 training held at London Mosque"

Old story I know

Anyway, let them build their mosque, only 2 (reasonable IMO) conditions apply:

1) It has to be built in Saudi Arabia
2) All those who want to attend have to emigrate.

Otherwise, STFU.

472. Borehamwood eruv granted planning permission

Comment #56136 by scottishgeologist on July 14, 2007 at 1:24 am

Are these guys taking the piss or what? Poles with wire on them? Where on earth (or live or neutral for that matter - hah!) does it mention "wire " in the bible?

And this is to allow them to do things they cant because of the "sabbath"

This sounds like making the rules up as you go along. And the council is going along with this lunacy?

Man, even the Western Isles and their Sabbath observance isnt as mad as this. Just as lame mind you .... Anyone for chaining up the kids' swings on Saturday evening? Or the "Ferry Reverand" lying down in protest at Sunday ferries? Remember that lunacy?

473. The US map of faith

Comment #55702 by scottishgeologist on July 12, 2007 at 2:58 am

I wonder, and I would really like to see a UK (and in particular) Scotland, map of faith. Percentage of people who "go to church" would suffice. Statistics like people calling themselves christian dont count - loads of people do that and they are never in a church except for weddings.

Parts of the Highlands and Islands have a very high precentage of believers, although places like Aberdeen would be considered "godless"

Even although parts of rural Scotland such as the Isle of Skye would probably register quite high, other rural districts like Argyllshire are possibly quite low. Certainly, if you travel from say Fort William to Lochgilphead (right through Argyll) , you pass by an awful lot of disused churches, now converted to houses.

474. Praying to a milk jug

Comment #55445 by scottishgeologist on July 11, 2007 at 5:33 am

I once had the misfortune several years ago of attending a "mens retreat" (during my faithhead days yes I know....dont rub it in... :-)

Anyway, this pompous tosser who was there who still refers to himself as a "Reader Emeritus" announced in sombre, grave tones (ie listen to me, what I have to say is SO important...) that God "has 3 answers to prayer - Yes, No and Wait" Exactly what is in this article and vid.

Must say at the time, I was beginning to falter and that guys comments actually hit something. Sometime later I came across a blog where a guy commented that if he set up a lump of stone in his living room and prayed to it - he could claim exactly the same answers. And the stone would always be right.

The whole thing is BS.

Billy, just LOVE the Evil Edna link. Willo the Wisp is a seriously good cartoon. I loved it when it was first shown. Rake through youtube you lot and you'll find more. Used to know an old woman who actually looked EXACTLY like Mavis Cruet, the fairy.....

And yes, all that "my god" and "our god" rubbish. That is a favourite sort of gibberish you get from the Evangies and Charismaniacs in particular. They are always going on about how they have an "awesome god" and how "they" have a "very big god". There is this "ownership" BS they seem to claim.

Pity that "their" "awesome God" cant heal amputees eh?

475. When is a bishop like a suicide bomber?

Comment #53882 by scottishgeologist on July 4, 2007 at 12:32 am

Geckoman, that was seriously funny. Definitely the best way to fight this nonsense - simply follow it through and see how utterly ludicrous it is. I love that "getting the burka off" bit....

As for Sutcliffes comment in the article: "That wannabe martyr - his 72 expectant virgins currently tapping their fingers impatiently in Paradise "

LOL, had all sort of kinky ideas rattling round my brain at that one...long red painted fingernails, high heels dangling...."hurry up and die will ya, I'm dying for a shag!" :-)

476. Don't Mince Words: The London Car-Bomb Plot Was Designed to Kill Women

Comment #53843 by scottishgeologist on July 3, 2007 at 1:51 pm

Back on a serious track, Diplo points out:

"These bombers may be far less technically savvy than, say, the IRA, but they are also far more ruthless and dangerous."

Very true. And they are also prepared to use suicide tactics. Something I dont think the IRA did (unless the dead hunger strikers count)

Maybe the IRA knew their religion was BS? As others have pointed out it was as much about politics and tribalism as anything else.

477. Don't Mince Words: The London Car-Bomb Plot Was Designed to Kill Women

Comment #53842 by scottishgeologist on July 3, 2007 at 1:45 pm

Hey Billy, what can I say? Pure dead brilliant! ROFLMAO!!

That is one of the funniest things I've read for a while. Huh, I bet the Flea laughed at that!

And for any visitors to this site who cant quite cope with Glasgow humo(u)r, speech, witicisms, etc, just have a look here:

http://www.glasgowsurvival.co.uk (The game of Nedopoly is class!)

And of course for some highly amusing light relief, you cant beat this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd8vVUGqNX0

478. Floods are judgment on society, say bishops

Comment #53594 by scottishgeologist on July 2, 2007 at 6:45 am

When pointy-headed fools make stupid pronouncements like this, it is worth considering another major example of "divine retribution" (well, plate tectonics actually....)

The Lisbon earthquake, tsunami and fire of 1755. Wikipedia has a good article on it , from which comes this:

"The earthquake shook much more than cities and buildings. Lisbon was the capital of a devout Catholic country, with a history of investments in the church and evangelism in the colonies. Moreover, the catastrophe struck on a Catholic holiday and destroyed almost every important church. For eighteenth-century theology and philosophy, this manifestation of the anger of God was difficult to explain"

Its easy to explain. There Is No God. Period. Its a natural event. Period.

Now put away the stupid pointy hat and go and do a real job.....

479. Floods are judgment on society, say bishops

Comment #53484 by scottishgeologist on July 1, 2007 at 4:02 pm

Ah, dont you just love it when these idiots are just *SO* certain about the reasons for it all. I am reminded about a huge controversy that erupted in the wake of the Indian Ocean tsunami a couple of years ago. Heres the text, taken from a church web site:

"Free Presbyterian minister the Rev John MacLeod provoked criticism yesterday after saying the Asia tsunami disaster was a "divine visitation". Mr MacLeod said: "Some of the places most affected by the tsunami attracted pleasure-seekers from all over the world. It has to be noted that the wave arrived on the Lord's day, the day God set apart to be observed the world over as a holy resting from all employments and recreations that are lawful on other days." A spokesman for the Catholic Church in Scotland said: "The view that the tsunami was some kind of divine retribution is utterly alien to the Catholic world view." The Church of Scotland also distanced itself from the remarks and a spokesman said: "Recreation is something which can happen on any day, including the Sabbath, much as religion can become part of any day of the week. The tsunami was a natural disaster, after which so many look for comfort or reflection in the church."
Source: The Herald.

John Macleod is an ultra ultra fundie. Makes Phelps look cuddly. well almost...

But, notice, however, the OTHER church reaction in that article, that it was a "natural disaster".

In other words, a tacit statement of "god is not omnipotent"

Oh yeah, to my eternal shame and horror - I dated a Free Presbyterian girl once. Mind you she was hot and horny.....

480. Rival to evolution may enter schools

Comment #53281 by scottishgeologist on June 30, 2007 at 2:25 pm

I have just noticed on the Truth in Science web site, among the list of those involved, one name in particular:

http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/site/content/view/191/82/

Notice Maurice Roberts. MR used to be a minister in the Free Church of Scotland, and was one of the leading figures in the split in 2000 that led to the "Free Church Continuing"

HE is a real fundie, biblical literalist and almost certainly a 6 day creationist / YEC.

The fact that someone like this is on their Board says it all.

481. God Hates the World

Comment #53177 by scottishgeologist on June 30, 2007 at 2:00 am

Completely off topic I know, but hey, Billy, I love that avatar of yours! I had completely forgotten about that place. Brilliant.

More place-nmae misery here:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2006/08/03/dirty_old_towns.html

OK, light relief over, back to mad men and hate filled gods...

482. God Hates the World

Comment #53102 by scottishgeologist on June 29, 2007 at 10:55 am

I'd say the FC message forum is a waste of time now. It used to stand alone, among all the churches I can think of , in having a very lively board with a lot of interaction. Because of the way it is moderated it is almost stagnant.

Anyway, if you go to it - what is the most common word on the page? Yes, "Dawkins" !!! Dawkins forum threads, Wee Fleas Dawkins articles, its all there.

Virtually no other theological discussion or church related topics.

Anyway, it looks incresingly like Wee Fleas own forum and I believe he is now the editor of the Free Church's own magazine.

Where no doubt, there will be many more references to Dawkins.....

You know, he could be an atheist 5th columnist....

483. God Hates the World

Comment #53052 by scottishgeologist on June 29, 2007 at 5:54 am

bokonon. Interesting. And disturbing. If anyone wants to read a bit more about this sort of thing, there is an article at:

http://www.virtualhebrides.com/articles/virtual-hebrides/protestantism-hebrides.htm

I *think* it was written by Dr Finlay Macleod, a well known atheist from the Western Isles who at one time anyway, was constantly in battle with the fundies.

The article is quite long, but note the section near the end where the strife gets so bad that the police are called.

And in the schism of 2000, when a group left the Free Church (over a nasty long running legal battle involving an "adulterous" Professor....) the in-fighting was almost as bad.

And when we look back at that time period in history, when 1999 gave way to 2000, what was the other blistering heated debate involving religion? What else, but Section 28 and "Keep the Clause" campaign run by and funded by , guess what, Evangelical Christian, Brian Souter of Stagecoach. Supported of course by Cardinal Winning.

Which brings us neatly back to the subject of the article at the head of this thread - faith fuelled homophobia.

Religion poisons everything.

484. Rival to evolution may enter schools

Comment #52875 by scottishgeologist on June 28, 2007 at 10:36 am

Diplo said: "I guess this is the start of the Scottish Disenglightment"

Unfortunately, if this gets going thats exactly what it'll be.

Hard to believe that the small country that produced David Hume, James Hutton, Adam Smith, Robert Burns, Sir Walter Scott,et al should end up even thinking about having a debate over this dross.

485. God Hates the World

Comment #52727 by scottishgeologist on June 28, 2007 at 12:17 am

Donald, thanks for a bit of back up there - better put than I could! I couldnt believe Davids response to what I wrote - all I did was point out the fact that Fred Phelps quotes from the same bible using the same verses as others who are not so extreme, but still anti gay.

However, such a response is par for the course , and also par for the course among his own dissenters.

The problem for David, as I see it is that he is painted into a corner. A 3 sided one.

He is an inerrantist (He has said in another thread that he cannot think of an instance where the bible has been shown to be wrong)

He is conservative (no not politically, he is always ranting on about "capitalism") but time and again he has said that he is against theological liberalism - he has actually been accused of "liberalism" by some in his own church, esp those who left in the schism of 2000

And thirdly he makes a big thing about his Calvinism - this binds him to certain doctrines which are the equivalent of a philosophical straitjacket. Calvinism is the most joyless, depressing theology ever devised.

If he budges an inch on any of these he'll get leapt on by the hounds of death that lurk in the shadowy corners of fundamentalism.

You know , I used to struggle with all this stuff at one time, maybe not so long ago either. Getting shot of this theological baggage was like a breath of fresh air.

One final point. The word hate has come up a lot. I mentioned the year 2000 when there was a schism in the Free Church and the conservatives left en masse to form, hey, wait for it, the Free church (Continuing) (Judean Popular Front anyone?!)

That ghastly incident and the years leading up to it were characterised by some of the nastiest most bitter in-fighting witnessed for a long time in the Scottish churches. Last time it happened was in , oh, 1988, when the Free Presbyterian Church had a split and the Associated Presbyterian Churches were formed. (Popular Front for the Liberation of Judea?)An equally vicious, nasty affair.

If you want to see hate or at least a complete and utter lack of "love" just look for a church schism - when Christian faith-heads fight, it sure aint pretty. Their weapons might not be AK47s and RPGs but the intent is little better.

486. God Hates the World

Comment #52577 by scottishgeologist on June 27, 2007 at 10:27 am

David:

DR: "What I find extraordinary here is your simplistic naivete"

Yes, great way to start, patronising, condescending, just like you are with the dissenters on your own forum.

DR: "Do you really think that just because people quote the Bible that that somehow makes them a Christian?"

No, I dont, but that wasnt the point. But all the conservative Christians who have got anti-gay hangups all quote the same "portions of scripture" when dealing with the subject. The same verses that Phelps uses.

DR: "just as there are many people who quote scientific research, but do so out of context and in a hypocritical and unintelligent way.

I can assure you, that fraudulence in science seldom gets very far. If I were to try to publish a paper tomorrow in which I deliberately misquoted previous research, it would be picked up by the editors and binned. Science is a self-refining process and the peer-review process ensures that it works as smoothly as possible. To commit fraud in science is to commit professional suicide.


DR: "The trouble is that you're so desperate to attack religion that you take these extreme nut cases and use them as a justification for your own views your own hatred and your own prejudice.It is the ultimate in ad hominem. "

No, I am not "desperate" Religion does a pretty good job of making itself look ridiculous. It doesnt actually need much attacking. Anyway, whats the big deal - you once said yourself on this forum I think it was: "religion - I hate it!" (Of course I appreciate you were trying to be all clever and smart and distinguish between the concepts of religion and christianity.)

As for hatred and prejudice , as Dawkins himself said when interviewing the "Jew turned Muslim" fundie "I dont hate anyone". However when it comes to hate, I find plenty of it in the bible . Take Romans 9:13 "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" or Psalm 139:22 " I hate them with perfect hatred"

And plenty of hatred from those who consider this "innerant, inspired and infallible"

No, I dont hate; pity maybe, laugh at occasionally, get angry at, yes, but hate, no.

And if you get upset at the militancy shown here, well just think about it.

We are SICK TO DEATH of the poisonous effects of "faith" You just need to switch on the news to find out why. Science under attack, Conservative christianity driving American foreign policy. Muslim brainwashed nutters killing themsleves and others all the way from Gaza to Pakistan - an unbroken band of palpable hatred. Children being brainwashed. Children being sexually abused by priests.

And all of it predicated on "faith". That, David, is why atheists are angry.

487. God Hates the World

Comment #52407 by scottishgeologist on June 27, 2007 at 1:36 am

Philip1978,

Ah, but did you say grace before the pizza? Often wondered about this - they come out with all this formal crap before eating, making a big deal of it. Yet, do they have an equivalent before taking a whizz or having a dump? Why not? Just as important I would have thought.....

And anyway, the bible even mentions it:
Deut 23:12

"12 Designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself. 13 As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement. 14 For the LORD your God moves about in your camp to protect you and to deliver your enemies to you. Your camp must be holy, so that he will not see among you anything indecent and turn away from you."

Definitely need an "inverse grace" for that I would have thought....

488. In Defense of Witchcraft

Comment #52404 by scottishgeologist on June 27, 2007 at 1:29 am

These evangelical types are always on about "spiritual warfare" they seem to see demons and witches and "being under attack from the Evil One" or "under assault" all the time

If you want to hear one of these nutters going on about this stuff - try this page:

http://www.kch.org.uk/Media/AllMedia.aspx?speaker=Phil%20Playfoot

And if you can bear it, listen to the "Praying in the Spirit" sermon. Its full of "spiritual warfare" and "speaking in tongues" Guys a nutjob.

And yes, it is the father of the girl in the purity ring case!

One final question, why oh why, oh why do these evangie charismatic types keep using the word "just"? eg "Lord we "just" want to say this and Lord we "just" want to thank you for that... and so on.

In fact this has been commented upon on the "Ship of Fools " website: one commentator said "I was also distracted by my habit of counting the number of "just's" and "Lord's" in evangelicals' prayers"

In my faith head days I used to get really hacked off about these mind numbing cliches - like listening to someone who has been programmed rather than thinking for themsleves

Anyway, rant and digression over. :-)))

489. 'Purity' ring case in High Court

Comment #52398 by scottishgeologist on June 27, 2007 at 1:14 am

Just came across this blog - some very interesting information about their media consultant, Denise Pfeiffer. Scroll down till you find it.

http://www.ministryoftruth.org.uk/2007/06/25/silver-bling-thing/

Somebody has been very busy poking around the depths of the internet!

490. God Hates the World

Comment #52131 by scottishgeologist on June 26, 2007 at 8:51 am

arildno: It is actually Mark, not Matthew (mind you Matthew is shot full of errors anyway...) The last verses of ch 16: 9 - 20 They contain the famous snake handling stuff.

Lots of controversy about them about whether they are authentic or not. Which begs loads of questions. The NIV states in a footnote that the earliest reliable manuscripts end at verse 8

So are they the "word of god" or not?

There is a similar debate about the so called "Johannine Comma" 1John 5:7-8 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one

Most academics accept it was added later

Note the importance of these 2 passages. One deals with "charismatic" style gifts - people have quite literally died because of it. The other is an explicit statement of the Trinity.

Pretty important stuff, and yet its all up for debate. Its not at all clear whether it is the genuine thing or not.

WHich begs the question how much more of the bible is equally unreliable, dodgy and useless?

Yet the fundies and the conservatives use this same book with its ludicrous stories and dodgy morality to condemn others

And Keith, your point concerning David: "If anyone argues with you they are just rats following Richard Dawkins' pied piper, and if they don't argue with you then you feel victorious for having silenced them with the depth of your insight and your rapier wit. You have carved out for yourself a no-lose situation, at least in your own eyes"

He is exactly the same with dissenters within his own fold - those that disagree with his theology get worn down until he gets the last word. You just need to look at some of the debates that have been held on the Free Church forum. Well actually you cant, cos its now heavily moderated. Moderated to the point that nobody really uses it anymore. And the old posts are all gone. But its the same tactic he uses.

Na na na na na! I won! I won! Arent I so big and smart and clever?

491. God Hates the World

Comment #52015 by scottishgeologist on June 26, 2007 at 12:05 am

Weaflea said;

55. Donald is yet another one who thinks that Phelps gets his message from the Bible. Yet Phelp's message is directly contrary to the Bible. But does that stop Donald and others lumping them altogether. And you encourage this kind of ignorance?


David, I dont want to pop your balloon, but Phelps DOES get his stuff from the bible. If you look at his godhatesfags.com home page, it is full of biblical quotes. The same quotes that are often used by less extreme conservatives to justify their own homophobia!

As for the burning in hell stuff, that has been mainstream conservative fundie stuff for centuries - "turn or burn" they say. Of course that sort of message was NEVER preached from the pulpit of your denomination or the other branches of it, now, was it?. Your hero McCheyne believed it.

As for churcharson.com, this has been discussed before - it is a bunch of SATANISTS who are behind it. North European death-metal anarchist types. They are merely following another delusion. They are actually ANTI-humanist.

Sorry. Game set and match.

492. God Hates the World

Comment #51968 by scottishgeologist on June 25, 2007 at 5:44 pm

On a completely different note, if you play the vid, early on, about 2 secs into it, you will see in the bottom right text that looks a bit like :

WBC featuring Jonny B God....

Ok, its not really, but the idea of "Jonny B God" made me smile...

493. God Hates the World

Comment #51967 by scottishgeologist on June 25, 2007 at 5:36 pm

Russell:

I've seen a lot of Christian fundamentalism in my time, and I'm here to tell you that its "normal" teachings are really not all that far from what has been expressed here.


That is EXACTLY what I was trying to say that the Flea seemed to find so hard to understand. Phelps and Co may represent the ultimate extremism, a small minority. Move a little bit leftwards and the numbers start to swell.

494. God Hates the World

Comment #51965 by scottishgeologist on June 25, 2007 at 5:32 pm

Hey, you folks out there - this thread has just managed to occupy every position on the "Top 10" Wee Flea, we salute you!

Actually, some of the comments are quite amusing, despite the dire subject matter. Dr Benways large cock definitely surpasses pewkatchoos " fuck off, flea" which in itself surpassed Brian Coughlans "little religious cunt" in a previous thread.

Now before the Flea throws a hissy fit over bad language, the good old "word of god" has got some beauties: drinking piss and eating dung, making bread from human poo and getting your father drunk and then shagging him for example. (Ok the Bible doesnt say "shag", but you get the drift...)

Funnily enough, you dont hear too many sermons on these texts....

PS: good call Billy - that scripture based full on assault back there was class! Sweet!

495. God Hates the World

Comment #51922 by scottishgeologist on June 25, 2007 at 2:49 pm

David, just noticed your comment re my point:

Scottishgeologist's comments just prove my point. There are people on this site who are ignorant enough to take the point of view that this is typical and an end product of all religion and all those who believe the Bible. I despair at such ignorance, prejudice and hatred.



I did NOT say that Phelpsism is an end product. which implies an inexorable process leading to it.

Neither did I say this was typical

I said it was an END POINT in a continuum - there is a continuous spectrum from liberalism through to ultra-conservatism, like Phelps. I dont for one minute believe that a church would drift to this position - well I hope not.

It is not typical, obviously. But the anti-gay sentiments are widespread in the churches.

There are conservatives I know who are definitely not Phelps supporters, but their opinions on homosexuality are not TOTALLY removed from it.

As for "I despair at such ignorance, prejudice and hatred."

Oh come on, stop being so precious. (Picks up rattle and places gently back in pram.....)

496. God Hates the World

Comment #51913 by scottishgeologist on June 25, 2007 at 2:34 pm

Dr Benway, the believers who claim to object to this sort of thing actually believe a lot of it. The churches are OBSESSED with homosexuality. I have just finished reading a cpy of the Church of Scotland Magazine "Life and Work" - hardly howling fundie material these days, yet it is full of letters, articles and all sorts of comment about the subject. The Church of England ties itslef in knots over it and is on the verge of schism.

The fact that there is so much angst within the churches is because of the very same scriptures and doctrines that WBC and Fred Phelps draw from.

A gay man in a conservative evangelical church must be a very lonely and confused person at times. I know of one. He IS.

497. God Hates the World

Comment #51904 by scottishgeologist on June 25, 2007 at 2:20 pm

Fred Phelps is often dismissed as some sort of extremist who represents a loony fringe. He isnt - he is merely the end point of a religious continuum that has John Shelby Spong and his ultra-liberal quasi-agnosticism at one end and every variety of "moderate" and "conservative" faith in between.

Phelps knows his bible well and that is exactly where the problem lies. Every one of his hateful assertions is backed up from "scripture" Check out his home page where he gives proof after proof for his anti gay ideas.

He refers to Jonathan Edwards famous sermon "Sinners in the hands of and Angry God". Edwards was one of the most influential early American preachers, Calvinist, Puritan and the leader of the "Great Awakening". Edwards is highly thought of in evangie and conservative circles. Even today. One of the Puritan heros of the past.

"Sinners in the hands of an Angry God" is absolutely chock full of Phelps-isms - and all quoted from Scripture!

The problem isnt Phelps - its the disgusting holy book of hate that he reads and quotes from. He is actually being quite honest. The hypocrites are those conservative Christians who conveniently ignore the "difficult" bits and try to present a lovey-dovey God.

Hate is actually a biblical value. Try Romans 9:13 - "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" Those who are "saved" are loved, the rest, ie most of mankind, well, hated.

Prof Dawkins is right in his statement about "God" : 'the most unpleasant character in all fiction ... a misogynist, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully'

Succinctly put!

498. His word: Attacking religion can seem like breaking a butterfly on a wheel

Comment #51680 by scottishgeologist on June 24, 2007 at 4:10 am

Billy, you wont get a straight answer from DR here. I know why you brought up homosexuality and the Pope - the thread touched on logicallity - both these subjects (anti christ pope and homophobia ARE illogical) Trouble is David is a member of a church whose subordiante statement of faith states unequivocally (and backs it up eoth "scripture proof" from 2 Thess) that the Pope is the Antichrist. And the homophobia among the FC masses is palpable. Dont try to deny it DR, I've been there, Ive sat in the pews, I've had "fellowship" where the subject has been raised.

What is quite funny is that DR is reading a book by the Pope! Maybe he'll finish it when Ehud Olmert finishes reading "Mein Kampf"

499. Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title)

Comment #51670 by scottishgeologist on June 24, 2007 at 3:31 am

Frank Hodsons point "If I had visible evidence, then it would not be an act of faith on my part." is to me, what this whole debate is about. Once you start "provong " the existence of god, it is no longer a matter of faith, but of reason.

Religion is founded on the supernatural, which by its very nature CANNOT be proven empirically. The moment that you do find empirical, repeatable, testable evidence for something supernatural, it is ipso facto, no longer "supernatural"

Atheist and believers are essentailly working within two different frames of reference.

There are onl one or two places of intersection between the so called supernatural and the natural and that is where believers claim that prayer can make a difference. Prayer may make a differnece to the believer in that it gives them a cosy, snug feeling. But it makes no difference whatsoever to real life events, above and beyond whta you would statistically expect. It is a total waste of time. But still the delusion sticks.

I mentioned it once before. People are praying in loads of churches for that child that went missing in Portugal. Why doesnt God tell someone - you know - a quick word to a "godly" preacher during a prayer session - a simple address or phone number would do. Instead what do we have? Silence. Zilch. Yep, the power of prayer - stunning isnt it?

Religion is for losers.

500. Doctors' beliefs can hinder patient care

Comment #51381 by scottishgeologist on June 22, 2007 at 2:27 pm

Just wondering about the name. this guys name is "MArtin Gish". Gish is not exactly common. Is he in any way related to Duane Gish the prominent creationist?