Comments by clodhopper

Comment #139564 by clodhopper on March 6, 2008 at 5:07 am

Poly: "Yes: religion offers not just love, but forgiveness for all the mess you have made of things"

.....who.....me? *squirms*

502. Fleabytes

Comment #139555 by clodhopper on March 6, 2008 at 4:40 am

Welcome vijikumar!

Comment #139506 by Richard Morgan

I presume that you are referring to what I would call the whole area of human relationships.

Yes, we are a social animal. We don't do well on our own. We need to 'belong'. We are a tribal species. We have to negotiate our lives alongside one another in a (now) global context while we still retain much in the psychology and behaviour traits of our tribal natures.

We will still happily, it seems, kill members of the perceived 'out group' whether that be the Israelis; Palestinians; Catholics; Protestants; Muslims; Hindus; Totenham Hotspur or Man U supporters etc.

So, I just wanted to engage in the debate, which Paula began with her brave post (several reams ago now), which began to explore the relationship between religion and human emotion. We may learn something from it, even if it's just a tactical approach.

As individual atheists, we are presumably getting our 'needs' met in a whole host of different ways without recourse to any religious input; family; social clubs; adult ed; over 80's glee and bunjee jumping society; playing tomb raider; yoga; meditation *ducks*; walks in the forest; work; hell, I don't know what else but I'm quite interested in this and topics around it.

503. Fleabytes

Comment #139520 by clodhopper on March 6, 2008 at 3:02 am

Comment #139511 by Steve Zara

snip..... "why does it look like THAT? That is weird!"

I think I just thought that how stuff looked was just part of it's 'stuffness' and took it for granted at that age.
.....apart from David Bowie...."why does he look like THAT? That is weird!" :-). Loved the music though.

504. Fleabytes

Comment #139509 by clodhopper on March 6, 2008 at 2:35 am

Comment #139499 by Steve Zara

When I was a child, I thought it was a question that everyone asked themselves.

It's a very sophisticated question for a childs mind to ask I think and one I don't recall asking myself. Is there a context in which you asked it or can you remember anything about the thought process you went through or was if more a feeling thing?

505. Fleabytes

Comment #139495 by clodhopper on March 6, 2008 at 1:56 am

Religion has been/is a component of social control and order. In Sharia this is overt as there is no distinction between the political and religious dimensions.

It's also ubiquitious in human society, so is meeting felt or contrived needs. A moral framework to live life in; comfort and solace in times of grief/hardship etc; a way to say sorry and to forgive (this is not easy). I could go with this list but you see where I'm going.

We (some of us) happen to think that on balance religion is/has become a negative social force and that from now on our political methods of social contracting and ethical/moral systems are sophisticated enough to take us forward without the need for the religious layer. As well, of course, the fact that we think the religious claims are not evidenced.

In short, we have 'outgrown' religion. Our infancy is over and we can start having toddler tantrums.

I think some of those personal/psychological needs are still relevant though and maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure the pub, or telly, or heat magazine, or celebrity gossip or the shopping mall quite cut it really.

I'm not asking for anything, just wondering out loud what we should be doing about it, if anything.

....actually, the pub IS quite good.

neuron #1325675 to neuron #784215 "you can just fuck off - I need chocolate NOW"

506. Fleabytes

Comment #139089 by clodhopper on March 5, 2008 at 5:41 am

Comment #139083 by Steve Zara

Because there is such (understandable) resistance to religion from some quarters that any attempt to use practices of certain religions is considered some kind of betrayal, I feel.

I understand that. Some folk hereabouts are taking a good crack at practicing 'forgiveness'.

.....of course, they should be shot ;-)

507. Fleabytes

Comment #139078 by clodhopper on March 5, 2008 at 5:27 am

Comment #139073 by Steve Zara

It's not ramble. Meditation, as I understand things, seems to be able to change the state of areas of the brain that deal with the sense of self.

....to the extent that when meditation has diddled the brain for long enough, the sense of self evaporates and notions of 'division' along with it. Nothing spiritual required. So why are people giving Harris such a hard time?

508. Fleabytes

Comment #139054 by clodhopper on March 5, 2008 at 4:55 am

Well, I think it is something in the way our brains work but that this something is not fixed.

You see we make a division between the experiencer and the experienced which may be entirely false. Many many years ago I had an 'experience' where this division completely dissapeared and no, I was not on drugs. Actually I was picking runner beans in a market garden (holiday job). The experience was quite extraordinary and has not been repeated. There just was NO division between 'me', the beans, the bees on the flowers, the wind blowing through them, that person on the bike over there, the sunshine, the whole damn universe. My brain had also stopped jabbering and was completely silent, just looking on while this took place.

Some would doubtless choose to interpret this as a mystical experience and relate it to god somehow. I don't, yet it happened and I'm buggered if it wasn't bigtime quality qualia.

I don't, possibly as a result of this, feel that we can experience properly unless our brains actually shut up for once. They don't, do they?

509. Fleabytes

Comment #139046 by clodhopper on March 5, 2008 at 4:40 am

Comment #139043 by Steve Zara

David Robertson experiences beauty and that experience is labelled "God", somehow

Careful Steve. I would have finished that sentence after the word experiences.

510. Fleabytes

Comment #139039 by clodhopper on March 5, 2008 at 4:06 am

Please can you stay here? I think this discussion is both relevant and important, even if I find it technical and difficult to follow at times. Thanks.

511. Fleabytes

Comment #139023 by clodhopper on March 5, 2008 at 3:24 am

SG: The words 'mass' and 'hysteria' spring to mind.

"The second main feature has been deep conviction of sin - at times leading almost to despair. I have known occasions when it was necessary to stop preaching because of the distress manifested by the anxious, and many would find expression for the feeling in their hearts and the burden of their guilty conscience, in the words of John Newton:

"My conscience felt and owned its guilt,
And plunged me in despair:
I saw my sins His blood had spilt
And helped to nail Him there.""

.....so yes, fear and guilt a large part of it. Also, off-islanders appearing magical and superior in terms of their knowledge of the outside world and what they bring in from that, coupled with the essential naivity, innocence, gullibility of the unfortunate St Kildans.

...all very sad.

PS. There are regular boats to St Kilda in the summer but it aint cheap.

512. Fleabytes

Comment #139012 by clodhopper on March 5, 2008 at 3:04 am

There is no experience. There is no experiencer.

That'll be $50 please.

513. Fleabytes

Comment #139006 by clodhopper on March 5, 2008 at 2:53 am

Comment #138985 by MaxD's friend

"It makes assumptions
that all we need is a continued "adjustment of our method" and all knowledge will be available to us."

Who is making that assumption?

"I have come to the conclusion that debate
on the issue is impossible with the movement because it's "goal" is to discredit religion."

Well bully for you. what movement? what goal?

"I find solid evidence
that the movement works hard to prepackage the facts to fit the (already decided upon) position."

You found what you wanted to find.

"why waste your
time with those clowns?"

good question.

514. Fleabytes

Comment #138975 by clodhopper on March 5, 2008 at 2:10 am

SG: "Wonder what the Wee Flea has to say?"

Aw....don't go there! I'm fairly sure wee flea is Mackay reincarnated!

What puzzles me is the dynamic of why such a strong, proud and independent people living in such an adapted way within their environment, had any truck with the twat....why not just feed him to the puffins and get on with life?

515. Fleabytes

Comment #138963 by clodhopper on March 5, 2008 at 1:52 am

SG: Ta for the link. I would like my time machine to take me back to Hirta or St Kilda in it's heyday. I think it is a fascinating place and was a remarkable society. The way incomers bringing religion affected the society and helped with it's eventual demise is also very instructive.

I do not want to eat fulmar though!

516. Fleabytes

Comment #138956 by clodhopper on March 5, 2008 at 1:40 am

At the moment I think qualia are just processes taking place in matter, in the brain. No structure = no qualia. But hey, it's only 9.40 am.

517. Fleabytes

Comment #138944 by clodhopper on March 5, 2008 at 1:17 am

Comment #138939 by scottishgeologist

You know, I've got a funny feeling this thread might hit 5K.......

Indeed. Scottish geology is just so fantastic....seriously, specially the west coast!

518. Fleabytes

Comment #138933 by clodhopper on March 5, 2008 at 12:51 am

David Robertson: What does the word 'evidence' mean to you?

519. Fleabytes

Comment #138607 by clodhopper on March 4, 2008 at 3:49 pm

Comment #138500 by Paula Kirby

We simply HAVE to take emotions into account when trying to understand any of this stuff.
and....
I am not for one moment denigrating rational arguments. I think they're hugely important. I just doubt that they win all that many converts. I suspect that people stop believing at the point where they feel able to face their lives without their beliefs; and that the rational arguments are then helpful in reassuring them that their new-found lack of belief is both reasonable and sensible.

I think we've sort of skipped over a crucial post from Paula. I think she has it exactly. Belief, to a very large extent, for a very large number of believers, is 'emotional', meeting social and psychological needs not necessarily related to the content of the belief at all. Appeals to rationality won't help here (much) or at all. I think we need to go into this much more but dammit I gotta go sleep as on early shift in't morning.

Just before ZZZzzzzz's....Paula...I relate to your experience very much. I wuz drug up Catholic and had the litany of 'Who Made Me'? - God Made Me. 'Why Did God Make Me' = God Made Me To Know, Love and Serve Him, catechizing thru my brain for years. It was a fairly brutal conditioning though I was able to throw it overboard in early teens. But later I was, in a similar way, sucked in to some universal woo woo, earth mother, F Capra, Gaia, Resurgence, feel the 'energy' yah de yah de yah da crap stuff and it met an EMOTIONAL need as well as a social one. So yes, lets dig into this a bit and see where it goes.

Now for bedtime prayers

ALFALFA, WHO FARTS IN DEVON....

520. Fleabytes

Comment #138532 by clodhopper on March 4, 2008 at 1:33 pm

Comment #138469 by Bonzai

My own opinion is that there are indeed questions that science cannot answer, and probably never can in principle, like how do you know the weather three weeks ahead (it is a theorem that you can't make long term forecast because of chaos, so "science may progress to the point one day.." kind of arguments don't work, or subjective things like personal aesthetics and so on.. I would only say religion and any other systems would not be able to answer these questions either and leave it at that.

I think that's right, and it's where religionists and philosphers creep in and say 'I know, I will show you, THIS is the truth'. offtimes with threats or some sort of dismissive arrogance. Which is why I am very wary of people on either side of the debate who claim to be able to prove (fill in your favourite big question) either way.

Comment #138497 by Steve Zara

I'll admit it took me a while to understand it. I can't remember what finally made me realise the universality of Darwin's work, but it was pretty recent.

Yes, me too. I was blind to that for ages. In my case it was definately on of RD's books when the lights went on at last, don't remember which exactly.

Bonzai: No, not me in the wetsuit, just when I learned it's better not to fart in one!

521. Fleabytes

Comment #138445 by clodhopper on March 4, 2008 at 10:33 am

Bonzai:......Big God Thingy snip..."is not really a meaningful concept because all its descriptions are just hot air and word games"

Well, sort of like philosophy, you mean?

*ducks*

522. Fleabytes

Comment #138442 by clodhopper on March 4, 2008 at 10:22 am

3163. Comment #138395 by Bonzai

The problem is people always have to believe, if not religion then it would be something else. People need answers and certainty.

Um....Sentient beings experience stuff and ask questions based on that expierience. I think most people would agree that answers and certainty are desirable but are they a necessity? I read a fair bit of sciencey stuff at a laymans level but I don't feel any need to believe it in a concrete way because so much speculation is involved and something new is going to turn up next week. At a practical level, don't we just say this is how it is and get on with it. Once the basics are met, ie the food content of our stomachs, then we can worry about the information content of the universe if we must.

Bugger....it's my turn to cook. syar later.

523. Fleabytes

Comment #138365 by clodhopper on March 4, 2008 at 8:34 am

. Comment #138306 by Steve Zara

Perhaps the only people who really need faith are the religious "intelligencia" who really doubt almost all of what their religion says to them.

Which is why it's very difficult to get anything solid out of them about what they 'really' believe, it's all filtered. But it may be rational, dare I say it, even in our terms....some sort of non interventionist deism gloop. What I think I would like to say about that is......bollocks.

524. Fleabytes

Comment #138324 by clodhopper on March 4, 2008 at 7:44 am

What Steve and Lorien said. And it's one of the problems a lot of us (me included) have. I have never in my life had ANY training in the use of Logic, reason, evidence (what constitutes it and what doesn't), which is one reason this site is extremely helpful. What faith heads consider to be 'evidence' seems most of the time to be a heap of mixed up wishful thinking which takes us along parralel lines of argument that can never meet.

Where is GOD HIMSELF when you need him. The pratt.

525. Fleabytes

Comment #138300 by clodhopper on March 4, 2008 at 7:14 am

Comment #138291 by Steve Zara

My (limited) experience is that people usually don't have that much actual faith.

Whereas if they had 'actual' faith, then they could move mountains and what not. You may find many mysterons willing to oblige with your request but the explanations won't amount to a hill of beans and there will be as many filters as there are believers. Are we defining faith as belief without evidence?

526. Fleas on the Horizon: In Defense of God

Comment #138142 by clodhopper on March 4, 2008 at 1:46 am

Chuck Colson's new book, The Faith (Zondervan, Mar.), snip....."It directly and indirectly answers the atheists, but it's bigger than just an immediate response, It makes a direct and winsome case for the Christian faith, and we think it has the potential to endure as a contemporary classic."

Would that be 'winsome' as in 'sweetly or innocently charming'?

527. Fleabytes

Comment #138122 by clodhopper on March 4, 2008 at 1:04 am

Comment #138039 by Quine

Unapoligetic: why religious apologists are paddling a sinking canoe

Mmmm.....'are paddling up shit creek in a barbed wire canoe without a paddle'?

528. Fleabytes

Comment #137897 by clodhopper on March 3, 2008 at 2:52 pm

I have learned so much here. I have learned it is better not to fart while wearing a wetsuit.

529. Fleabytes

Comment #137800 by clodhopper on March 3, 2008 at 1:43 pm

epeeist: thanks.

530. Fleabytes

Comment #137794 by clodhopper on March 3, 2008 at 1:39 pm

.....and they're off in the 3000 handicap at the Forum. SG is off to a good start but Annabannanna is coming up hard behind while Peacebeuponme seems to have refused the first and Diacanu has stopped to read Milton. 40 furlongs to go and the going is soft to irrational. Theodicy is being whipped hard by his jockey Steve Zara. Weeflea is bringing up the rear as a 500 to 1 outsider and seems unlikely to finish.

40 furlongs to go and Dr Benway is driving hard while Prankster has developed a limp and there's no sign of Hope or whatever his name is it. There's nothing in it now as we come to the closing stages. Perhaps there never was.

531. Fleabytes

Comment #137777 by clodhopper on March 3, 2008 at 1:19 pm

Comment #137769 by epeeist

Why use that when we already have a perfectly good word, i.e. "grok".

Oooo yes. Remind me which sci fi novel that was?

er...I'm thick....how do I put an avatar up?

532. Fleabytes

Comment #137764 by clodhopper on March 3, 2008 at 12:54 pm

By the by, while we're waiting for some evidence, can we hijack the word pod from apple?

I would like it as a verb; so I can say I pod something. Perhaps meaning 'to understand'.

eg " I do not pod what theologians do for a living"

533. Fleabytes

Comment #137753 by clodhopper on March 3, 2008 at 12:43 pm

Comment #137738 by Steve Zara

You see, you have shattered my fragile optimism already.

Sorry. I do tend to have a pessimistic mind set and perhaps, like you, take encouragement/solace/whatever from the voices of reason represented by RD, CH, SH, DD and of course the many contributors to this forum.

However, sometimes I just want a blunt instrument to weild.

534. Fleabytes

Comment #137729 by clodhopper on March 3, 2008 at 12:09 pm

Comment #137710 by Steve Zara

People may like the sound of faithiness noises, but they can also, more than perhaps we think, recognise blunt and honest rational arguments.

Oh I do hope you're right, although it seems all too easy for some people to completely dismiss or shut out the blunt honest arguaments that might conflict with their faith. I do not know how to reach such people. But anyway it is good that now the arguments are so 'out there' (hardly a day goes by that I don't hear something relevent on radio 4), that perhaps there is more chance of some reason filtering through.

535. Fleabytes

Comment #136935 by clodhopper on March 2, 2008 at 3:50 am

Comment #136815 by GOD HIMSELF

EVEN I HAVE TROUBLE WORKING OUT WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE ME MOST OF THE TIME

TYPICAL MALE DEITY. ENDLESS, WHINGEING, SELF-PITY. GET A GRIP. IF YOU START BLUBBING THERE'LL BE ANOTHER FLOOD.

536. Fleabytes

Comment #136581 by clodhopper on March 1, 2008 at 1:06 pm

No way can I read 2.5K posts!

Paula: Fantastic work. Thankyou

DR: I watched your vid. I think it's narcissitic personality disorder but you can seek treatment. I hope you do.

537. Earth's Final Sunset Predicted

Comment #135469 by clodhopper on February 29, 2008 at 2:25 am

Please can all this badness happen AFTER I've been to the Jethro Tull concert at the Lowry in April? Thanks.

538. Taking evidence seriously

Comment #135133 by clodhopper on February 28, 2008 at 3:03 pm

The sooner that church and state are irrevocably seperated in this country the better.

The following quote is from a 68 page document (Fit For Mission) circulating all schools in our diocese. Can someone else please read it coz I really have to pinch myself to believe this stuff is going on....but it is. You can find it here:http://www.lancasterrcdiocese.org.uk/mission review/school-report.pdf

"The secular world portrays faith as irrational, not based on evidence or open to argument.
However, as Pope John Paul II highlighted in his
encyclical 'Fides et Ratio' [Faith and Reason],while they are not the same thing, faith and reason are far from incompatible. Reason is a natural gift that enables us to grasp the
realities of the world around us �" the mysteries of Nature �" and faith is a supernatural
gift that enables us to grasp with certainty the deeper realities that are greater than our
minds �" the mysteries of God."

539. Earth's Final Sunset Predicted

Comment #135090 by clodhopper on February 28, 2008 at 2:12 pm

Douglas showed the way:

We must build 3 enormous spacecraft right now. All the religious must go first as they will be guided by God.

All the management consultants, hair stylists, telephone cleansing operatives, network rail operatives can go next.

The rest of us will follow, later.

540. Are they running for President or Pastor-in-Chief?

Comment #134704 by clodhopper on February 28, 2008 at 5:57 am

While Sweden has an enviable secular society, they did (if I am not mistaken), change overnight from driving on the left (the correct way to drive), to driving on the right. Doubtless they have regretted this mistake ever since but let us hope that the religious fruit cakes the world over may make an analagous switch in their cognitive processing, if not in their driving.

541. Are they running for President or Pastor-in-Chief?

Comment #134694 by clodhopper on February 28, 2008 at 5:47 am

epeeist: Quite. In which picture does John Wayne ever throw his left leg over a horse? The height of bad manners. Come to think of it, never seen him mirror, signal or manoeuvre either.

542. Are they running for President or Pastor-in-Chief?

Comment #134684 by clodhopper on February 28, 2008 at 5:32 am

Tyler: Yes, I don't believe Cleesy wrote it either, not quite him somehow.

YsiiBoo: The fact that so many believe in god does not make them right nor that the rest of the world driving on the right makes driving on the left wrong. Clearly, driving on the left is more rational and sensible and driving on the right is irrational. In fact, so many in the UK have fallen for this delusion and are so hopelessly confused that they now just drive in the middle of the road. I am sure that somewhere in the Bible it will say we should drive on the left amen.

543. Are they running for President or Pastor-in-Chief?

Comment #134611 by clodhopper on February 28, 2008 at 3:35 am

In light of your failure to nominate competent candidates for President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective immediately.

Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except Kansas , which she does not fancy).

Your new prime minister, Gordon Brown, will appoint a governor for America without the need for further elections.

Congress and the Senate will be disbanded.

A questionnaire may be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed.

To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary.

1. Then look up aluminium, and check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it.

2. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'favour'and 'neighbour.' Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without
skipping half the letters, and the suffix -ize will be replaced by the suffix -ise.

Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. (look up 'vocabulary').

3. Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" and "awsome" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication.

There is no such thing as US English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell- checker will be adjusted to take account of the reinstated letter 'u' and the elimination of -ize.

You will relearn your original national anthem, God Save The Queen.

4. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.

5. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and
therapists shows that you're not adult enough to be independent.

Guns should only be handled by adults. If you're not adult enough to sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist then you're not grown up enough to handle a gun.

6. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler. A permit will be
required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.

7. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and this is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean.

8. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left with immediate effect. At the same
time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables.

Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.

9. The Former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling gasoline)-roughly $6/US gallon. Get used to it.

10. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.

11. The cold tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be
referred to as beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager.

South African beer is also acceptable as they are pound for pound the greatest sporting Nation on earth and it can only be due to
the beer. They are also part of British Commonwealth - see what it did for them.

12. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English characters.

Watching Andie McDowell attempt English dialogue in Four Weddings and a Funeral was an experience akin to having one's ears removed with a cheese grater.

13. You will cease playing American football. There is only one kind of proper football; you call it soccer. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some
similarities to American football, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like a
bunch of nancies). Don't try Rugby - the South Africans and Kiwis will thrash you, like they regularly thrash us.

14. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the World Series for a game which is not played outside of America. Since only 2.1% of you are aware that there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. You will learn cricket, and we will let you face the South Africans first to take the sting out of their deliveries.

15. You must tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us mad.

16. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition
of all monies due (backdated to 1776).

17. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 pm with proper cups, never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies) and cakes; strawberries
in season.

God save the Queen.

Only He can.

PS Do not stand in Line, for goodness sake, queue properly.

544. Evidence can't shake your faith if your faith excludes it as evidence

Comment #134228 by clodhopper on February 27, 2008 at 12:34 pm

What, for Dawkins, would constitute evidence of God's existence? Suppose an angel of the Lord were to appear before Dawkins, even as he was delivering another lecture on the delusion that God exists. Would such an experience change Dawkins' views? Fish has spent his whole career pointing out why it wouldn't."

That must've been one hell of a career....compared say, to RD.

545. Moral thinking

Comment #133653 by clodhopper on February 26, 2008 at 1:16 pm

Time is relatively real

546. Evidence can't shake your faith if your faith excludes it as evidence

Comment #133612 by clodhopper on February 26, 2008 at 12:35 pm

I always assumed the world was round so I went round it and it was flat all the way round. qed.

547. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #126083 by clodhopper on February 12, 2008 at 12:49 pm

Three million cheers for Darwin. Happy ~D Day

548. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #126041 by clodhopper on February 12, 2008 at 12:07 pm

For goodness sake.....get a room ;-)

549. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #126023 by clodhopper on February 12, 2008 at 11:42 am

Comment #125964 by The Reverend Dark

Nice one Rev.

HughCaldwell: That is sick. Have you actually read many of Steve's contributions to innumerable threads on this forum? What's your beef?

550. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #125495 by clodhopper on February 11, 2008 at 1:05 pm

Comment #125460 by HughCaldwell