501. Presentation on Atheism

Comment #22793 by MelM on February 22, 2007 at 2:38 pm

I think I'll disregard anything from Gary North; he's a Christian Reconstructionist. However, I would like to see a careful study of believers and their kook leaders. Understanding believers might help taylor a message that would slow them down. Surely we can find writers committed to reason.

502. Battle for Europe's secular values

Comment #22690 by MelM on February 20, 2007 at 6:44 pm

The Brussels Declaration

An odd document full of loop holes.

Short form:
"You can have your liberties until and unless a democratically elected government decides to restrict them in the name of "social responsibility." I don't even see a rejection of involuntary servitude to the state. And, it's hard to tell if TGD would be "tolerant" enough.

Under the Brussels Declaration, I might not have a basis to be outraged in the case of the following:

I've fired off e-mails to my senator and the Chairman(KJMWEB@fcc.gov) of the FCC (US Federal Communications Commission) over the new and outrageous attempt to regulate violence on TV. This is a restriction of freedom of speech for a "social cause." Hell, violations of freedom of speech are always for a "social cause." Bush is still trying of stop Oregon's doctor assisted suicide law. Some see that right as having a deadly impact on some people because of misuse. If we give up freedoms because of potential harm, we'll have none at all. I urge Americans to protest this attempt by the FCC to regulate speech. Send some e-mails! (Remember that the evangelicals may see the harm done by atheists as far far worse than anything resulting from some violence on TV.)
http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/TV/02/16/tvviolence.ap/index.html

503. Battle for Europe's secular values

Comment #22685 by MelM on February 20, 2007 at 4:39 pm

Giving up secularism is moving toward the Islamist view of society. After that's done, there only remains the question of which cult will dominate.

If Europe declares itself to be Christian, the "Christian Nation" noise in the U.S. will get louder. The Dominionists are trying to turn a demographically Christian nation (which the U.S. is) into a politically Christian nation (which the U.S. isn't). It's important to distinquish between demographically Christian and politically Christian.

Tom Paine (Prospect Papers):
The christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense. Why is man afraid to think?

504. Is America Too Damn Religious?

Comment #22606 by MelM on February 19, 2007 at 9:50 pm

The vista of a new Dark Age is opening up before us.

I think Barbara Forrest sums it up very well in this short video.
http://www.evolutionvscreationism.info/Evolution%20vs.%20Creationism/9..html

The paperback version of her (and Paul R. Gross) book "Creationism's Trojan Horse: The Wedge of Intelligent Design" will be published March 30, 2007. It will contain a new afterword about the Dover trial.
http://www.amazon.com/Creationisms-Trojan-Horse-Intelligent-Design/dp/0195319737/ref=ed_oe_p/104-7079336-6081544

Her view of the strength of the Jones decision is at the end of this video.
http://www.evolutionvscreationism.info/Evolution%20vs.%20Creationism/10..html

505. Is America Too Damn Religious?

Comment #22583 by MelM on February 19, 2007 at 7:56 pm

BTW, "Infidel" by Ayann Hirsi Ali came onto the latest NYT best seller list at #6. Seeing the way she used her independent mind to get herself out of Islam and out of religion is quite inspiring and I hope it will be so to others. Perhaps this book will help blunt religion in the U.S.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali blog:
http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/

506. Is America Too Damn Religious?

Comment #22578 by MelM on February 19, 2007 at 4:39 pm

Damn right it is!

"Theocracy Watch"

http://www.theocracywatch.org/

507. Memo: Stop teaching evolution

Comment #22570 by MelM on February 19, 2007 at 4:00 pm

Wait! There's more.

"Galileo Was Wrong!"
http://www.galileowaswrong.com/

"The Geocentric Bible"
http://www.geocentricbible.com/

"OFFICIAL GEOCENTRICITY WEBSITE"
http://www.geocentricity.com/

508. Researchers find 6,000-year-old fossil evidence

Comment #22451 by MelM on February 18, 2007 at 6:56 pm

Maybe this will spice things up:

"Scientists urged to run for school boards"

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Science/20070213-090821-1493r/

509. 'Everyone Is Afraid to Criticize Islam': Interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #22447 by MelM on February 18, 2007 at 4:55 pm

I checked yesterday. "Infidel" came on to the NYT best seller list at #6. This is a powerful book that nearly everyone can read and understand very well. If freedom and science survive this attack by religion, this book will have helped. And, it's a thoroughly exciting read! Watch an independent mind escape religion!

510. A Familiar and Prescient Voice, Brought to Life

Comment #22413 by MelM on February 16, 2007 at 9:22 pm

OT but exciting...

Scientists urged to run for school boards
http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php?feed=Science&article=UPI-1-20070213-09133300-bc-us-scientists.xml

It's worth a shot and much much better than evangelicals running things. We'd better do something before our schools end up like "Jesus Camp".

511. A Familiar and Prescient Voice, Brought to Life

Comment #22411 by MelM on February 16, 2007 at 7:59 pm

Everyone loves black holes but I'd sure like to see deGrasse-Tyson or anyone, get on the (U.S.) Tonight Show and explain the wonderful science in an ordinary electrical extension cord. That's what I like about science: the mundane just disappears.

512. A Familiar and Prescient Voice, Brought to Life

Comment #22381 by MelM on February 15, 2007 at 9:00 pm

Neil deGrasse Tyson's new book "Death by Black Hole: And Other Cosmic Quandaries" came out on Jan 22 '07 and is #14 on the current NYT best seller list.
http://www.amazon.com/Death-Black-Hole-Cosmic-Quandaries/dp/0393062244/sr=1-1/qid=1171600076/ref=sr_1_1/104-7079336-6081544?ie=UTF8&s=books

So, that's a good thing. Here's his web site; you might enjoy some of the videos.
http://research.amnh.org/users/tyson/index.php

I bought Sagan's book and have started it; however, the subtitle "Personal View of the Search For God" makes me wince a little. If it weren't a Sagan book, I'd likely leave it at the book store thinking that I'd seen the title a hundred times; I'm not a fan of flirting with religion.

513. Kansas science standards evolve again, becoming pro-Darwin

Comment #22377 by MelM on February 15, 2007 at 7:30 pm

Let's not confuse axiomatic concepts with "faith". An axiom is validated by showing that a person must accept it even in the act of attacking it. For example, there is no way to attempt to invalidate the senses without somewhere assuming the validity of the senses. There are a number of concepts of this kind and they can't be used to ground "faith". I think these two short paragraphs about Aristotle (from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) are quite beautiful and deal with the issue very well. One does not have to be an Aristotle expert (I'm certainly not) to understand them.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-metaphysics/#FunPriAxi

One of the main theist modes of attack is to try to blow away confidence in reason itself. Instead of establishing the validiity of their own beliefs, they go on the attack and try to undercut any attempt at a rational criticism of the whole matter of religion thus making religion--any religion, unchallengable. This was evident in a post just the other day by a theologin attacking Dawkins. Another way one hears the attack is in the statement that "atheism is a religion" or "reason is an article of faith..." (from the amazon.com comments about "Letter to a Christion Nation." We all know that once faith (a vice) rules the day, it will take us into 1 of hundreds of religions, sects, or cults. The only reason I don't believe in Zeus or Bahá'u'lláh is because I don't have the faith. Religion depends on faith and the modern world depends on reason. Let Barbara Forrest state the issue more clearly.
http://www.evolutionvscreationism.info/Evolution%20vs.%20Creationism/9..html

I urge everyone to pay close attention to the modes of theist attack. If we can't get better and better at dealing with them, religion wins--by default. At this point in history, our lives and freedom are at stake.

514. Kansas science standards evolve again, becoming pro-Darwin

Comment #22322 by MelM on February 14, 2007 at 6:27 pm

I find it incredible how creationists want students taught about "critical thinking" applied to evolution. Creationist posing as advocates of critical thinking? Puke! It's just spin used to hack together an argument (all religious "thinking"?), and, as typical of spin, it'll come back to bite them on the ass.

Ok, fine, let's have a class on critical thinking. Lesson #1: Faith is not thinking at all! Lesson #2: Faith can't achieve knowledge; it only results in dogma. Lesson #3: All religion is irrational.

Count on it. If the faith freaks got wind of a "thinking" class that didn't allow faith, they'd pull out all the stops trying to tinker with it or end it (if they understood what was going on.)

Yes, I've seen the term "main stream science" used in another story about the change in Kansas. It's something to be concerned about.

515. Foreword for the UK edition of 'Letter to a Christian Nation'

Comment #22275 by MelM on February 13, 2007 at 9:47 pm

Harlon57,

Have you thought of "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali?
(Just published last week.)
http://www.amazon.com/Infidel-Ayaan-Hirsi-Ali/dp/0743289684/sr=1-1/qid=1171431158/ref=sr_1_1/104-7079336-6081544?ie=UTF8&s=books

It's a very exciting personal autobiography by a Somali woman escaping the brutality and madness of Islam and of religion in general. She held on to her independent mind and it took her out of religion. This is one of several themes of the book which shows the progression of her struggle. A biography or novel can have an impact that is difficult or impossible to achieve with an abstract work such as TGD by Dawkins. I too have some relatives that I'd like to see read her book but I won't "con" them by omitting that she ends up an atheist. I'm afraid that even her attack on Islam will go unheard because the witch doctors will rant against her atheism and religious conservatives will realize that she's, fundamentally, no friend of theirs. I think this book is a great atheist resource if we can figure out how to get people to read it--but maybe we just can't.

BTW, scroll down the blog entries here to find a post about her book.

516. Foreword for the UK edition of 'Letter to a Christian Nation'

Comment #22238 by MelM on February 13, 2007 at 4:39 pm

If you think virgin birth is insane, check out "rapture." I think Harris is correct to worry about this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

Among the links provided, I found this gem. After you disappear in the rapture, friends and relatives will be notified by e-mail.
http://www.raptureletters.com/

There's another site that has set up mirror sites because of the expected load on the main site after the rapture. Really!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture_Ready

517. Richard Dawkins interview with Paula Zahn

Comment #22086 by MelM on February 12, 2007 at 10:24 pm

There is a big difference between a demographically Christian nation (which the US is) and a politically Christian nation (which the US isn't). The Dominionists are trying to turn the former into the latter. It's important to recogize equivocal uses of "Christian nation" and be ready to stomp on them.

518. Richard Dawkins interview with Paula Zahn

Comment #22076 by MelM on February 12, 2007 at 10:01 pm

I'm getting "This video is no longer available." on both videos. There is a transcript at:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0702/12/pzn.01.html

519. The Current: Part 3: The Religious Right

Comment #21536 by MelM on February 9, 2007 at 9:56 pm

Received my weekly NCSE weekly e-mail update today. Some good news for the U.S. Some bad news for France.

Kansas coming out of the Darkage?
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2007/KS/870_kansas_state_board_of_educatio_2_8_2007.asp


Muslim creationism in France.
You will not believe this. It's incredible who gets the blame for the World Trade Center attack!
Dawkins will go through the roof!
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2007/XX/17_islamic_creationism_in_france_2_5_2007.asp

520. Panel discussion on atheism where no atheists are included

Comment #21180 by MelM on February 7, 2007 at 10:14 pm

Re: Comment #21156 by J Steven
Erik J. Wielenberg's "Value and Virtue in a Godless Universe".

I checked the book at Amazon and read some comments. From the book's description: "...he develops naturalistic accounts of humility, charity, and hope."

Yuk! Jesus is not my hero.

If one wants to get away from religion, why not throw out the ethics.

Throw out faith and include reason as a virtue.
Throw out dogma and include knowledge as a value.
Throw out indoctrination and include rational education as a virtue.
And what about "pursuing one's dream."?
What about personal happiness as the goal instead of a trip to heaven?

This author may have thrown out religion but he still is stuck in the religious morality and he's ignoring the values and virtues for human life on Earth. Indeed, the values above (part of my morality and part of the unrecognized morality of many) are the reason why we can even communicate via this blog with people all over the world. People succeed and progress despite religion and the sooner we dump the ethics of misery, the better off we'll be. If someone is attempting to discover a secular ethics for living a human life on Earth and doesn't include at least "reason" in the list of virtues, then screw it--the ethics is no good at all. Notice this: if reason had been a virtue for the last several centuries, religion would have been dead already instead of trying to eat us alive. Use a little induction and ask why you have a computer sitting in front of you rather than a pile of rocks, some sand, and a puddle of oil.

Also, go read "Infidel" by Ayann Hirsi Ali. Look at how she kept her independent mind going. THAT'S VIRTUE! I don't think I'll be reading Mr. Wielenberg's book any time soon.

Back on thread

Anyway, I think we can count on Dawkins to not "shut up" tomorrow. BTW, seems like I've heard this "shut up" attack before. It looks like a rather childish piece of nonsense but it must serve some funtion in the religious movement; I just don't know what it is. As a hunch, maybe it expresses the frustration of minds who have NO WAY OF RATIONALLY fighting atheism. It certainly must be sickening to see one's entire world view crumble and have no rational way of defending it.

521. Panel discussion on atheism where no atheists are included

Comment #21170 by MelM on February 7, 2007 at 9:05 pm

Hope Dawkins gets a video from CNN as he walks out the door. Then, when we see it, we can e-mail them about how wonderful it was and would they please have him on again now and then.

522. 'Everyone Is Afraid to Criticize Islam': Interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #21141 by MelM on February 7, 2007 at 5:54 pm

A short video of her accepting an MLK award.
http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/ayaanhirsiali/2007/01/martin_luther_k.html#comments

After reading "Infidel", I can't even begin to imagine that she'd support any kind of tyranny whether from the Left or a Christian Dominionist theocracy. In one place she indicates that she believes in the rights of individuals rather than groups. I'd need to see much more to determine just what this means to her, but--at this point--it looks good to me. She's an advocate of reason, which is pretty damn rare and certainly not at all consistent with Bush's faith based politics.

Anyway, if folks want to bash her, they should reference and quote her own speeches and writing instead of that from all kinds of other people at AEI. I hope she keeps the values of reason and individualism that she has now and finds a more appropriate place for herself or--perhaps best--goes independent. The "Ayaan Hirsi Ali Institute".

Another thing. I hope at least some Christian youngsters read the book. An adventurous heroine escaping religion and embracing reason. Wow! What a great role model for teens. One of the powerful things about this book is the personal, "inductive" background to her conclusions--which should give the book a wide appeal. From my atheist, individualist perspective, I hope this book is very successful.

523. 'Everyone Is Afraid to Criticize Islam': Interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #20873 by MelM on February 6, 2007 at 9:42 pm

I've finished her new book "Infidel". Wow! It's a book that's very very hard to put down!

One of the book's themes is her independent mind and its journey out of religion. This theme is so prominent, that I doubt the Christian fanatics would recommend it at all; it's a dangerous book for religionists. A reader would have to be an idiot not to be able to generalize from Islam to other religions. In fact, a young person born into a wingnut family but who has maintained some intellectual independence, could be helped considerably by this book.

This is the first thing I've read from her but, from what I've seen, I doubt that further reading will overturn my view that she's a remarkable person; I don't expect that we've heard the last of her. But, will anybody listen? Will it hit the best seller lists? If that happens, it'll be a really good deal for us all. Just the sight of a real mind challenging dogma is worth the price of the book.

About AEI. She's only been there 4-5 months and I can't judge whether it's a good fit for her. I don't know much about AEI but I don't think they are part of the Christian fanatic movement. Still, she may not be comfortable with them because of their religion; maybe she'll make a pile from this book and starts her own "institute."

And, I found her blog just a while ago so I haven't had a chance to explore much yet.

http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/ayaanhirsiali/

524. Taking the fight to Islam

Comment #20693 by MelM on February 5, 2007 at 9:00 pm

Is Ayaan an atheist?

525. Taking the fight to Islam

Comment #20590 by MelM on February 4, 2007 at 4:16 pm

A nicely done review. I'm sold; I'll get the book this evening.
To hell with all the appeasers, I like what she says and the way she says it. This remarkable woman must be protected!!!

Though it may say something for our incurable self-loathing that it is Hirsi Ali, the most fervent admirer of European liberalism, that we've effectively sent packing.

Q. Have you seen any ideology coming from within Islam that gives young Muslims a sense of purpose without the overlay of militancy?

526. The Chronicles of Kearnya, or, Principles of Evolution Observed in the Field at Kearny High School

Comment #20518 by MelM on February 3, 2007 at 4:22 pm

How much "getting away with it" is going on?
It would be very interesting to know just how much preaching is being done in the U.S. public schools and hasn't been caught or where the "school board would rather paddle around in the dark." If this guy didn't get fired for his outrageous behavior, then he really wasn't taking much of a risk. If schools boards elsewhere act this way, then wingnuts can use the classroom to preach without fear of serious repercussions. Anyway, I wonder in how many places teachers are "getting away with" religious and anit-evolution prattle.

527. U.S. 'Satisfied' With Religion's Public Role, But More Want Less

Comment #20515 by MelM on February 3, 2007 at 3:41 pm

The number of Americans who think religion should have less impact has increased 10 percentage points since 2001, according to Gallup.

528. What a Friend We Have in Dawkins

Comment #20333 by MelM on February 1, 2007 at 10:26 pm

Faith is the vice.
Dawkins is absolutely correct in taking everything away from faith. All this "epistemology" can produce is dogma that's highly personal in nature, usually what people were indoctrinated with as kids. It's therefore subjective and relative--hardly the stuff of the absolutes the religionists claim to want. Dogma can't be called knowledge and it can never converge to knowledge as can science. It's faith that's a fundamental vice.

An attack on religion's subjectivism?
Besides often giving religion an epistemological free pass, we also often let them argue as if only Christianity exists. I've not yet figured out how to make attacks like this work but I think confronting the religionist with conflicting dogma from other religions, on the same point, might be effective. This confronts them with the subjectivity of the "faith" approach. For example, it common today that the evangelicals will flat out claim America for Christianity. Why not Hinduism or Zeus or Islam or one of the many others? Should America be Christian because Christianity is true or because most of the people living here are Christian--a rather arbitrary basis to say the least. Why should I pick God instead of Zeus? The religionists need to have it made clear to them that they're just running with the local herd instead of achieving truth; we've been too "sensitive" about reminding them of how pathetically subjective and relative their views really are. They evade thinking about the fact that if they'd been born somewhere else--even next door--they could have belonged to another religion. We should not let them evade this! With this approach, I'm looking for a way to put a crack in their fanaticism by making them face their evasion.

In the long run...
As to the long run, what is taken away from faith must be taken up by reason. That means everything--metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics, and anything else. Indeed, it is this and only this that will put religion in the history books forever. If we will not claim all the philosophic sciences for reason, then a new enlightenment is impossible and religion will stay and be ready to bare its teeth again and again. If the idea persists that a prescriptive science of ethics can't be proved, we're screwed. Stake the claim no matter what!!!

529. Interview with Neil deGrasse Tyson

Comment #20186 by MelM on January 31, 2007 at 10:16 pm

Tyson did a very nice "Origins" series for U.S. PBS last year. There's more science and history on PBS--lucky for me I've got 5 PBS stations to pick from on my cable. I would like to see more of Tyson but he's a working scientist. Another guy that would be great is Steve Squyres. He is principal investigator of the Mars Exploration Rover Mission and was a student of Carl Sagan. I don't know if he's interested in popularization but I hope he considers it. We sure need some scientists to inspire the kids and do battle with the anti-evolution and YEC freaks in this country. If we don't turn this around, who knows, the geocentric guys--yes they exist (I have links)--might get the upper hand. And, let's face it, a Bible based astrophysics would be a very strange beast indeed.

Tyson bio: http://space.about.com/od/astronomerbiographies/a/ndgysonbio.htm?terms=phd+graduation

Squyres bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Squyres

530. CNN Sylvia Browne Fraud

Comment #19599 by MelM on January 28, 2007 at 8:24 pm

From klmgy #19593

It's time these wackos were subject to some type of licensing with an exam, standards, and some level of protection afforded by state oversight.

531. CNN Sylvia Browne Fraud

Comment #19583 by MelM on January 28, 2007 at 2:48 pm

Attend a nice "Spiritual Salon" with Sylvia in Campbell CA. Only $1000 a pop. The Feb 10 class is full though so you'll have to wait for the March 24 class.
http://www.sylvia.org/home/lectures_ss.cfm

Wow, she's only 53 miles away! Might be a kick if I wanted to waste $1000. But, I don't and I certainly don't want to reward the mess she's creating.

532. CNN Sylvia Browne Fraud

Comment #19580 by MelM on January 28, 2007 at 2:10 pm

The psychic crap isn't the worst of it. She's the creator of the "Society of Novus Spiritus"
http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~r13wme/societyofnovusspiritus.htm
and then we have her web site: http://www.sylvia.org/home/index.cfm

Now, on to the stream of raw sewage she's pouring into the culture. This link is to her book list on Amazon.com. This is truely shocking. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_1/104-7079336-6081544?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A1000%2Cp%5F27%3ASylvia%20Browne&page=1

Good news though, Jesus has returned. Yes sir!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16840066/site/newsweek/

533. She told them the boy was dead

Comment #19363 by MelM on January 26, 2007 at 2:11 pm

She's into religion also--working all facets of mysticism I'd say. In fact, her book "The Mystical Life of Jesus" is #12 on the NYT Best Seller list--ahead of "Letter to a Christian Nation at #13.
Then we have another recent book: "Exploring the Levels of Creation". From the Amazon.com book description:

"From the beautiful and perfect life of the Other Side to the wondrous, weird, and strange Lower Levels, to the everyday intricacies of life on this planet, Sylvia takes us on another journey of exploration and truth."

"Most of us probably won't be able to verify if Sylvia Browne's cosmology is correct until we leave our bodies permanently."

534. A Culture of Faith, Devoted Yet Complex

Comment #19250 by MelM on January 25, 2007 at 10:26 pm

So, where's the U.S. Congress now? Here's a summary of the outrageous bills awaiting action:
Bad Bills On The Hill: Church-State Wall Under Fire In New Congress
http://blog.au.org/2007/01/22/bad-bills-on-th/

Note the "court stripping" here: one of the most outrageous power grabs ever invented. The article ends with:

These measures may not stand a chance of advancing in either chamber – at least, we hope they don't — but they serve as reminders that a new Congress does not mean all is secure on the battleground to preserve the church-state wall.

535. The Bright Revolution

Comment #19063 by MelM on January 24, 2007 at 3:33 pm

OT

The holymen are out after Dakota Fanning today because of her new film "Hounddog." For those who know what a talent she is and can spare some time, find a blog or message board and support her.

I just posted this short comment:

From what I've read, this is not a porn flick. Dakota Fanning is the brightest, most mature child I've ever seen and my hope is that she will become a truely great adult actress--visions of greatness are, sadly, far too rare today. I think she has the brains to avoid being turned into a bimbo.
The holymen ought to stay out of this and leave her alone; I'm sick to death of them. Go Dakota!!!!

536. The Bright Revolution

Comment #19045 by MelM on January 24, 2007 at 1:59 pm

I think "atheist" does just fine; we ought to have the courage to fight for it. Besides, "bright" will just give the enemy endless opportunities for cartoons.

OT
Look at the attempt of suppress the hominid fossils in Kenya.
http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2007/01/update_on_kenya.html

537. Zeus devotees worship in Athens

Comment #18556 by MelM on January 21, 2007 at 5:15 pm

A BBC companion story: "Ancient Greek gods' new belivers". There's a video on the upper right.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6285397.stm

"Her co-religionists believe that the Olympian gods exist in the world and control various elements of nature."

Oh dear! Here we go again.

538. Sex and the Single-Minded

Comment #18404 by MelM on January 20, 2007 at 3:41 pm

A culture of misery.

When I look at the long list of "hot button" bans the Christians advocate, there's a common theme: they inject unnecessary suffering into the lives of real people.
Examples:
. no contraception
. no abortion
. no divorce
. no cutting off life-support for some vegetative patients
. no embryonic stem cell research
. no doctor assisted suicide

The religionists (in the U.S. anyway) call this a "culture of life."
I think of it as a "culture of misery" and I don't think near enough is being said about it.

"No sex out of marriage" is just one more item in their "culture of misery." I find the idea appalling!

539. Atheist Richard Dawkins on 'The God Delusion'

Comment #18340 by MelM on January 19, 2007 at 10:40 pm

Re: stuff

I didn't want to be picky about the meaning of "stuff" in EndlessForms's statement. I will just use "something" or "existent." This distinguishes these from nonexistence or "nothing." Could be atoms, strings, photons, energy, apples, whatever. Whatever "is". Interesting issues brought to mind though. What belongs to metaphysics and what to physics? (I'm not talking about a kind of metaphysics not ultimately derived from sense data though.) Just a wild idea: getting the two sciences confused could lead to real trouble. Letting metaphysics have what belongs to physics would mean dogma--very dangerous. Letting physics have what metaphysics should have would be mean unanswerable questions just waiting for "god"--very dangerous. Just a thought. Just a thought. Use at your own risk!

Change of subject. I hope some of you UK people get a chance to see the Pipes/Livingstone debate. I don't know for sure that it will be on TV though. The debate is Jan 20. I was just reading a U.S. blog talking about Brown's plan to make Muslims proud to be British. The idea was certainly getting a lot of laughs in the comments. The Pentagon has an idea about convincing Muslims that the jihadi's ideas are wrong. For every Muslim the Pentagon convinces, the jihadis will convince 1000 in the opposite direction. I'd be laughing at this too if it didn't make me so angry.

540. Atheist Richard Dawkins on 'The God Delusion'

Comment #18329 by MelM on January 19, 2007 at 7:18 pm

EndlessForms,

Thanks for the response. I'll look at your view. In particular, the statement: "Why is the world full of stuff when there could just as easily been nothing.". Anyway, don't expect an answer real soon.

541. Atheist Richard Dawkins on 'The God Delusion'

Comment #18327 by MelM on January 19, 2007 at 6:36 pm

"Where did the laws of physics come from in the first place?"

Good grief! How about "existence"? Where else would they come from? I think this is a perfectly good fundamental answer (although I think more can be said) and it closes the door to "god" which is almost certainly where a questioner will go next. Don't give the theists any field whatever to work in!!! This is what Dawkins has said in TGD. Indeed, he's insisted on it which is one of the best things about the book.

542. Atheist Richard Dawkins on 'The God Delusion'

Comment #18324 by MelM on January 19, 2007 at 6:11 pm

"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

It's an invalid question.

Taking "existence" as the sum of everything that "is", then "something" means "existence."
So, the question is asking for a cause of existence. But, the cause itself would have to be an existent and both exist (to be a creator) and not exist (to be created): a contradiction. Creating something out of no parts (nothing) with no creator (nothing) is not an option. Creation is inside existence. "Nothing" is not a type of "something."

So, the question is invalid. But, I think one should have an answer along the lines as above--or an infinite regress version. Otherwise, theists will see a "gap" and try to exploit it with a "god" hack. And, the audience the theist is targeting may have no experience with this sort of question and thus fall victim to theist prattle. Also, the above argument has the advantage of staying away from whatever current "multiple universe" theory(s) are around; it's more fundamental.
I'm really sorry to see that Dawkins left this question alone. I know it's in TGD somewhere but I've forgotten just where or what he did with it. Ouch!

543. Radical cleric sparks fury in Australia

Comment #18189 by MelM on January 18, 2007 at 11:26 pm

Wow: "not helpful".

When these characters get around to saying that they don't condone the killing of innocents, don't forget to ask: "Can Infidels be Innocent?"
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/488

I suppose (but don't really know) that Pipes is religious, but, I think he's a good man and has been studying Islam for many many years. He's going to debate Key Livingstone on Jan 20 in London (I think.) After the revelations of the Ch4 documentary, I would think Pipes would just have more intellectual ammo against Livingstone. I'll be looking forward to seeing a video of the debate (if I can find it.)

---------------
Faith is a vice!

544. Deliver us from the god delusion that imperils our humanity

Comment #18184 by MelM on January 18, 2007 at 10:31 pm

Here's someone who is an atheist and supports capitalism on moral grounds.

http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-winter/tragedy-of-theology.asp
The Tragedy of Theology: How Religion Caused and Extended the Dark Ages
A Critique of Rodney Stark's The Victory of Reason
Andrew Bernstein
"Stark's errors are rampant and across-the-board. They span the fields of history and, above all, philosophy. Indeed, as will be shown, Stark's claims are historically false and philosophically impossible. . . ."

Just today, I saw an attack on Sam Harris that used Stark's book. The attacker wrote: "...the Scientific Revolution was not, as is popularly supposed, the result of an alleged Enlightenment battle of "secular forces of reason" against the "irrational religious dogma" of the Middle Ages. ""


See also:
http://andrewbernstein.net/articles/01_globalcap.htm
Global Capitalism: The Solution to World Oppression and Poverty
By Andrew Bernstein
"Political freedom entails an individual's legal right to engage in any activity he chooses, so long as he does not initiate force or fraud against other men. Capitalism is the system of freedom. It is the system in which the government is legally prohibited from initiating force against its citizens, confining itself to the protection of their rights. This was the great moral achievement of the U.S. Constitution and its Bill of Rights, providing American citizens an unparalleled degree of political liberty."


Religion imperils our humanity, but so does statism. But, the two together: my worst nightmare.

----------------
Faith is a vice!

545. Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory

Comment #18001 by MelM on January 17, 2007 at 10:16 pm

Well, ho ho ho out of this madness if you can. Note the mentality!

Galileo Was Wrong
http://www.galileowaswrong.com/

Official Geocentricity Website
http://www.geocentricity.com/

The Earth is not Moving:the granddaddy of all conspiracies
http://www.fixedearth.com/

The Geocentric Bible. Note the chapter titles
http://www.geocentricbible.com/
(contains link to "Galileo Was Wrong")

This is certainly on the advanced edge of Bible Science but who knows? Maybe soon we'll hear: "Heliocentrism is just a theory."

546. A deadly certitude

Comment #17972 by MelM on January 17, 2007 at 7:07 pm

It looks like the Ch 4 documentary of the Greenlane Mosque has been removed from YouTube today because:
This video has been removed at the request of copyright owner Hardcash Productions Ltd. because its content was used without permission

Does anyone know of a legal link to this video?

547. Sam Harris at Idea City '05

Comment #17953 by MelM on January 17, 2007 at 5:04 pm

Re: further videos. There's a link to Sam's website videos just under the YouTube picture above.

548. Intelligent design is a science, not a faith

Comment #16972 by MelM on January 9, 2007 at 11:05 pm

Simmons #27.

Very good! But, please don't write a methodological guide to holy science! Let them fumble about.

549. Intelligent design is a science, not a faith

Comment #16971 by MelM on January 9, 2007 at 10:59 pm

Interestingly, there's no entry for "reason" in the index to TGD. I expected to find something there and I'am a bit puzzled by not seeing an entry.

How does Dawkins handle "the supernatural"?
Anyway, on my list of what to look for in the book, as I continue reading it, is how Dawkins defines and disposes of "the supernatural". My current working def. is that it's that part of reality populated by all of the things that don't and can't make any sense and thus require protection from reason--most particularly, "spirits." The finishing touch to the scam is the claim that these things are "knowable" only by faith. See how it all works out? Beautiful!

Scraping the supernatural to get rid of religion.
If this whole rotten procedure could be concisely articulated and outed, I think religion would take a serious hit--this approach seems much more robust than using only the "can't prove a negative" route that doesn't seem to accomplish much. The whole scam needs to be exposed in one integrated package. So, this is why I'm interested in how Dawkins sees reason.

Ethics?
The other critcal issue that must be dealt with is ethics. Some will go for "use what you've got now" but I think lots of folks will see that as completely subjective (which it is) and will want something better. From what I've seen so far, Dawkins is in trouble on this point. But, he's not attempting to supply (explicitly) an entire philosophy of reason, he's just trying to get the supernatural duality nonsense ended in metaphysics. If his work only serves to get atheists to stand up and be counted, he will have accomplished something really good!

Not fair I say!
Scientists work for years to experiment and build concepts but the holymen only have to tweak their fantasies so as to be undetectable by reason and thus safely in the supernatural. And, let's face it, non-existence gives one a great deal of latitude for assigning characterists and for building theory. Add to that the habit of not asking these guys to prove anything or even to put an idea into an intelligible form, and they've got it made--and get paid for it too!

550. Intelligent design is a science, not a faith

Comment #16955 by MelM on January 9, 2007 at 6:50 pm

ID is an argument for religion even if the word God is not mentioned.

Have I got this right?

ID concisely boils down to this:
"Since natural living things--to explain their design--require a designer, there must exist a non-natural undesigned designer."

A non-natural undesigned designer is needed to stop an infinite regress of natural or non-natural designers. Surely such a non-natural (supernatural?) designer would qualify as a god. So, that leaves us with a challege to figure out whether the designer is the Christian god or some other god: perhaps Zeus or some yet unknown god! (Wow, just think of the possibilities here!) The ID supporters, however, "know" by means of faith that their god is the only god. So, surprise, surprise, the designer is the one and only...God. QED

----------------
Faith is a vice!