501. 'God Is Not a Moderate'

Comment #25796 by BaronOchs on March 15, 2007 at 7:06 am

What you are asking for, as I have argued before, is salvation by reason.

I think Oscar Wilde said "Blasphemy isn't in my dictionary".

Equally, Salvation isn't in mine.

502. A 'Sad First' in the History of the Congress

Comment #25704 by BaronOchs on March 14, 2007 at 7:02 pm

Good f***ing Lord, although I am reminded of the time Anne Widdecombe called for £100 fines for anyone caught in possesion of cannabis and half the conservative party came out as onetime users, so who knows . . .

503. When They Came for the Homosexuals...

Comment #25698 by BaronOchs on March 14, 2007 at 6:46 pm

".... What a cretinous remark."


I thought it summed the whole thing up quite well.

504. Academy denies claims from job candidate

Comment #25627 by BaronOchs on March 14, 2007 at 11:07 am

Veronique Ofsted is loathed because . . .well:

http://www.tes.co.uk/search/story/?story_id=2258723

The teaching profession is not in a good way in Britain at the moment due to the masses of paperwork and planning and overtesting and league tables they have to worry about, Ofsted don't seem to help the situation either. Anyhow if we get taken over by some mad fanatics they'll serve just fine as "The New Holy Office for Standards in Divine Instruction" or whatever.

505. The Only One in Step

Comment #25362 by BaronOchs on March 12, 2007 at 2:48 pm

Gimli isn't the most important thing making a model that explains the phenomena at hand and that really makes testable predictions? If moving away from materialist assumptions (whatever that means) might allow a good model that really explains something then that theory and its distinct metaphysics should stand up for itself in a peer reviewed journal.

In reality all materialism means is explaining the universe on its own terms. This perhaps gets the point across:

"Because Darwin's principles of explanation are immanent, functional and "historical" they really illuminate the mutual adaptation of insect and orchid, the stag's antlers and the peacock's courtship. By contrast Paley's view of nature . . .is strangely uninformative. Paley claims there is a benevolent world-making and world-directing providence. Can we then specify what the purpose of cosmic history is and predict the next few turns in the plot? - Of course not. Can we at least say for sure that nothing very nasty is going to happen to us? -No. Here is an attractive, edible-looking berry . . .can I safely predict from the theory of the Great Designer's benevolence that this berry will turn out to be nutritious? -I certainly cannot. Then just how informative is Paley's theory?"

~Don Cupitt, Taking Leave of God, SCM Press 1980

506. Response to Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris

Comment #25327 by BaronOchs on March 12, 2007 at 6:26 am

I'd love to see this guy in a debate with Sam Harris!

Speaking of which is Andrew Sullivan going to respond in the beliefnet debate? He's said nothing, they may have communicated in private though for all I know.

507. Academy denies claims from job candidate

Comment #25247 by BaronOchs on March 11, 2007 at 9:13 am

http://children.safepassagefoundation.org/archives/2005/03/index.html

That was just the first link I found but holy f***

"The Exclusive Brethren, which also believes that members should not go to university because it is too "worldly," runs 43 private schools educating 1,400 children."

. . .Welcome to Britain, a theocracy since . ..2015? oh dear

508. Academy denies claims from job candidate

Comment #25245 by BaronOchs on March 11, 2007 at 8:57 am

Veronique according to wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Schools_Foundation

They have 3 establisments and are currently looking to open another one in Northumberland. I'm glad to see that apparently their plan for a school in Conisborough fell through after local protest but still, they are a big ugly cancer infecting the north of england.

Speaking of the Exclusive Brethren I remember in the news a few years back controversy when their schools (which apparently don't have windows in order to keep out satanic influences!) received praise from Ofsted, the UK's much loathed school inspectorate.

509. Was there ever dog that praised his fleas?

Comment #25175 by BaronOchs on March 10, 2007 at 4:55 pm

Good review Martin. I recall in that open forum talk he said something along the lines: "Dawkins gets the psychology of religion all wrong and basically I take his argument to pieces". So much for that it would seem? Considering how short it is it's an expensive book, can't help feeling this is all for the good of McGrath's bank balance.

510. Daggers Drawn

Comment #25141 by BaronOchs on March 10, 2007 at 10:45 am

Congratulations to Baronness Neuberger on being Britains second woman rabbi but I found her a bit irritating here. Like her suggestion that religions need a significant following to be taken seriously. Truth isn't a popular vote and if anyone does know about god i'd say it might as likely be a sect of five members that meets in an upper room in Bransholme as the Roman Catholic Church.

Britains Jewish community is very small so you could easily say "you need this many to be given privileges" and just put it out of their reach. Which shows how the whole idea is ridiculous and I'm surprised she doesn't see that.

511. The Archbishop whose words came from same hymnsheet as a Marxist

Comment #25099 by BaronOchs on March 10, 2007 at 5:39 am

stevencarrwork I recall (from times past) reading a book called Catholic Lives by Greg Watts. One of the books unlikely believers (along with conrad black, a former gangster, and the director of the birmingham royal ballet) was Terry Eagleton "The Marxist Historian" if I can trust my memory at all. I'd like to find the book just to check. I seem to recall he writes in the liberal catholic journal "The Tablet" also.

512. Academy denies claims from job candidate

Comment #25007 by BaronOchs on March 9, 2007 at 4:36 pm

This place along with similar of these academies is a brainwashing factory. Its sick, it's a parody of education.

Another great New Labour idea like PFI and that botched illegal war.

This article also shows how easily people can use the current newspeak in an attempt to cover what they're really upto.

513. Science, Faith, and Evolution

Comment #24897 by BaronOchs on March 9, 2007 at 4:53 am

"Facts are God's native tongue"

how uhh gradgrindean . . .

514. Economics and human evolution

Comment #24886 by BaronOchs on March 9, 2007 at 3:47 am

So the universe pulled itself up by its own bootstraps and we got the trickle down benefits?!Which reminds me I should be writing an essay on fiscal policy. . .

515. Conservapedia v Wikipedia

Comment #24803 by BaronOchs on March 8, 2007 at 4:37 pm

What have they got against relativity? I can't imagine that contradicts the bible!?

this site:
http://www.anti-relativity.com

seems to offer a genuine scientific critique of relativity which is fine, ideas shouldn't be taken just on authority. That said Einstein wouldn't be worrying yet for sure.

516. How my eyes were opened to the barbarity of Islam

Comment #24763 by BaronOchs on March 8, 2007 at 11:29 am

tylersoap click "Forum" then "log in" then "profile" then scroll down and find the image file you wnat where it says upload avatar. they have to be fairly small though or it rejects them.

517. How my eyes were opened to the barbarity of Islam

Comment #24733 by BaronOchs on March 8, 2007 at 8:59 am

Say it louder!

518. She's No Fundamentalist: What people get wrong about Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Comment #24677 by BaronOchs on March 8, 2007 at 2:55 am

Pantore you have made the same comment about the AEI on I think every Ayaan Hirsi Ali related thread I have seen.

I don't know if you're right but god you're boring.

519. Conservapedia v Wikipedia

Comment #24675 by BaronOchs on March 8, 2007 at 2:43 am

"The liberal bias on wikipedia is 6 times greater than the proportion of liberals in the general public"

wtf??? well I've got to admire his ability to quantify things . . .

"I myself edited certain articles and my contribution was promptly removed"

probably because it was shit, I had to admire Jim redmonds complete patience in that interview which I know I wouldn't have been capable of. This thing is utterly despicable, a worthy attempt to disseminate knowledge is being mimicked by a site wishing to do directly the opposite.

520. She's No Fundamentalist: What people get wrong about Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Comment #24671 by BaronOchs on March 8, 2007 at 2:20 am

melisande Christopher Hitchens usually takes a forthright position on whatever he's talking about as this review sums up well:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v25/n02/coll01_.html

which means if he's wrong, like perhaps in the article you read he can be well wrong, but he is also not infrequently quite right.

521. Conservapedia v Wikipedia

Comment #24608 by BaronOchs on March 7, 2007 at 2:35 pm

Lady GG Dawkins discusses that incident (and answers their question) in this essay:

http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/dawkinschallenge.htm

which is also printed in A Devil's Chaplain.

522. Why there are almost no genuine atheists

Comment #24527 by BaronOchs on March 7, 2007 at 4:57 am

"almost everyone who claims to be an atheist still makes lots of "ought" statements"

He seems to think ought statements make any more sense with God.

If it was true that

1. God commands a

it wouldn't follow that

2. we ought to do a

The most you could get is

3. If you don't want to go to hell you ought to do a

or perhaps

4. If you love God you ought to do a

You can get statements of this strength without God for instance

5. If you want the world to be a habitable place for our descendents you ought to minimise your harmful effects on the environment as much as possible.

523. Was there ever dog that praised his fleas?

Comment #24244 by BaronOchs on March 5, 2007 at 1:36 pm

Wee Flea and Tom Day I rebuke your flagrant abuse of the boldtext function!

[ahhh having just posted the above i find myself a hypocrite, carry on]

[The problem now fixed this is whole post is an embarassing irrelevance, well "what I have written stays written" or whatever]

524. Was there ever dog that praised his fleas?

Comment #24230 by BaronOchs on March 5, 2007 at 12:13 pm

3 slim books? These three wise men might as well have thrown a prayer meeting and lumped their efforts together?

525. Books on Atheism Are Raising Hackles in Unlikely Places

Comment #24055 by BaronOchs on March 4, 2007 at 1:55 pm

Carl S. Richardson very good point!

526. Was there ever dog that praised his fleas?

Comment #24052 by BaronOchs on March 4, 2007 at 1:11 pm

I read Dawkins' God and frankly thats as much time as I'm willing to give the dawkins detractors. hopefully at least some will peruse these and share their wonders with us here.

527. Bishops must not sit in reformed House of Lords

Comment #23718 by BaronOchs on March 2, 2007 at 7:55 am

As conservative evangelicals are getting an increasingly strong hold on the CofE, and more of them are making it into the episcopate it becomes all the more urgent bishops be removed from the upper house.

We are supposed to be a democracy not a theocracy after all.

528. Falwell says Christians shouldn't focus on global warming

Comment #23680 by BaronOchs on March 2, 2007 at 3:41 am

From:

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/mar/07030101.html

"Pope Benedict XVI. . . selected retired Bologna archbishop Cardinal Giacomo Biffi to preach the annual Lenten retreat to the Pope and the top members of the Vatican."

In 2004 Cardinal Biffi described the antichrist as "walking among us"

"the Cardinal said "the Antichrist presents himself as pacifist, ecologist and ecumenist."

If anyone sees any pacifists or ecologists be very wary they might be the antichrist.

529. The Dawkins Confusion: Naturalism ad absurdum

Comment #23606 by BaronOchs on March 1, 2007 at 5:26 pm

There may be an infinite number of universes in which case the probability of one being suitable for life will tend towards one. Life when it comes to exist in this universe will have a very blinkered point of view as it will observe the "fine-tuned" universe not any other. This really does undermine the whole goldilocks argument.

even if it's likely that some universes should be fine-tuned, it is still improbable that this universe should be fine-tuned. Name our universe alpha: the odds that alpha should be fine-tuned are exceedingly, astronomically low, even if it's likely that some universe or other is fine-tuned.

This is equivalent to filling out a lottery ticket after the draw then saying "Wow I mean I knew the chances are someone would have the right numbers but what are the odds of it being this one!" We are only allowed to see the right universe so the argument fails!

Platinga also argues that Naturalism leads to scepticism about all our beliefs because our thoughts are just chemical processes not guaranteed to lead to truth.

I completely disagree, we know our thoughts are reliable because if they weren't we simply wouldn't last long, and this is even more clear if you bring evolution into the scenario. Furthermore I would say we can be directly sure that we are not wrong about some things like 2+2=4 can be verified directly just by thinking about it.


Now let me attempt to turn Platinga's case on its head:

"God has created us in his image, and an important part of our image bearing is our resembling him in being able to form true beliefs and achieve knowledge."

let us assume the truth of this. This means we are able to claim our conclusions about reality are correct. We reach the conclusion there is no god. according to our initial premise we must be right.

Platinga has the paradox that if god has ensured we will attain the truth why are so many of us not believers!

530. The Only One in Step

Comment #23514 by BaronOchs on March 1, 2007 at 11:32 am

Good article about Bombadier Beetles here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bombardier.html

531. William Crawley meets Richard Dawkins

Comment #23441 by BaronOchs on February 28, 2007 at 4:57 pm

At two points in this interview Dawkins backed down, both were in instances where he may well have been right. Firstly concerning what children are told in Northern Irish schools. I wouldn't rule out the possibilty that some very nasty things are told to children in at least some if only a minority of Northern Irish schools. He also backed down over using "deluded" to describe believers (when they were talking about polkinghorne). Once again its a controversial point but quite possibly accurate.

The reason I mention this is that it goes to show he is a fundamentalist in no sense of the word. He remained cool and honest where so many people (fundamentalists, but not just fundamentalists for sure) refuse to admit they might be wrong, raise their voices and become increasingly irrational. Which is what I might do the next time I hear someone dismiss Dawkins as a fundamentalist!

532. William Crawley meets Richard Dawkins

Comment #23427 by BaronOchs on February 28, 2007 at 2:59 pm

Miri -cool pic!

533. Dawkins v. Collins Debate

Comment #23366 by BaronOchs on February 28, 2007 at 6:38 am

This reminds me though that I did once read at least some of C.S.Lewis' The Problem of Pain (yes I was not ever thus) and as I recall he accepted evolution in some form but in that book he claims that before the fall, which he sees as a specific event in history, biological functions like digestion were not involuntary like they are now.

If anyone has the book do please have a look to clarify what I'm on about. How does Francis Collins as a champion of Lewis put up with such ridiculous and unscientific nonsense?

534. Dawkins v. Collins Debate

Comment #23364 by BaronOchs on February 28, 2007 at 6:28 am

MIND_REBEL seems to want something like an atheist equivalent to the catholic "anti-modernist oath" which the church made its scholars swear until not so long ago. This is ridiculous, if someone wants to be a scientist there shoudl be only one condition: that they can do science!!

The kind of policy you want is hardly new, for instance in the C19th you had to sign the 39 articles to get into oxford or cambridge university, but I think it is evident that in a free society any form of this is unacceptable.

Perhaps Science degrees should include study of the wider implications of science including those for religious faith which might be a more productive step forward.

535. The joy of changing your mind

Comment #23259 by BaronOchs on February 27, 2007 at 8:02 am

Fundament: 3. a. The lower part of the body, on which one sits; the buttocks; also, the orifice of the intestines, the anus. In birds, the vent. (OED)

Fundamentalism: Sermonising from the fundament.

536. Faith

Comment #23235 by BaronOchs on February 27, 2007 at 3:43 am

In this case I will agree a peculiarly high level of bitterness has been present in some threads.

537. Pope speaks out against 'designer babies'

Comment #23171 by BaronOchs on February 26, 2007 at 3:33 pm

What precisely is the pope against? Intervening so a child that would have been born with a genetic disorder will not be? The article does not detail what grounds he bases this on.

I can't see any problem with it myself although i find the possibilty of designer babies along the lines of "doctor we want a blond-haired violinist" worrying though I haven't looked at the issue in any detail, if anyone can offer a good breakdown I'd be grateful.

538. Faith

Comment #23152 by BaronOchs on February 26, 2007 at 2:31 pm

I'm not sure what your point is here? If you want to challenge a specific point just post and people can respond in a civil manner.

539. Faith

Comment #23049 by BaronOchs on February 26, 2007 at 3:24 am

"Atheists like the Richard Dawkins of this world..."

That's the Dawkins of this world, as oppossed to the Great Dawkins in the Sky (all hail etc).

540. Battle for Europe's secular values

Comment #22577 by BaronOchs on February 19, 2007 at 7:30 pm

Comment #22536 by couldbethelasttime
"Anyone happen to know the state of the UK regarding state religion?"

England (not Wales/Scotland/N.Ireland!) of course has the established Church of England, which receives the honour of 27 bishops in the House of Lords.

State schools are still obliged to provide a religious assembly every day and faith schools are still prominent, some of which nevertheless only receive 10% of funds from a church.

I got the message here that "only God can save the European Constitution"...

Writing christianity into the constitution would be problematic not least for the proposed entry of Turkey into the union. In the days when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger the Pope expressed strong oppisition to Turkey's entry on the grounds that it is:

"Muslim by heritage and staunchly secularist by its state constitution"

The latter could be said about france. Does the fact that geographically and historically Turkey is not European mean it shouldn't be admitted to the EU? I don't think so personally. A constitution should not define Europe in christian terms. Christianity is connected to "Europe" in the historical sense, but not in the EU sense.

The fact is that the constitution the french shot down might have been secular but it was also an awful piece of drivel. A fight over this might just mean we'll end up with a decent attempt at a constitution next time round?

541. My critics are wrong to call me dogmatic

Comment #22406 by BaronOchs on February 16, 2007 at 12:57 pm

"When will this guy shut up about McGrath already" you say, all in good time, all in good time, but first some more ranting:

Like I said I haven't got Dawkins' God to hand but I was in a book shop today and I quickly perused it again.

He claims Dawkins' is wrong to call faith belief without evidence and to back this up he cites a very long definition of faith by W.H. Griffith-Thomas (dig that welsh name!).

We only need to look at one part of this definition:

"The conviction of the mind based on adequate evidence"

McGrath's cue to outline what level of evidence might be adequate and then to assess whether that level is met for christianity.

But he doesn't do this, it's as if he thinks defining faith as evidence-based is in itself an argument. The book just never engages in a real tough argument and thus I'm unconvinced by it.

542. My critics are wrong to call me dogmatic

Comment #22370 by BaronOchs on February 15, 2007 at 9:56 am

Good style quoting Yeats there RD.

Some opponents like to Make out Richard Dawkins is culturally illiterate, for instance:

"Dawkins has made a name for himself by assailing the persistence of religion, philosophy, poetry, and many of the other human activities that constitute culture-as if these represented a threat to modern science.

http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2002/seeing.htm

Likewise in Dawkins' God McGrath steers clear for the most part of criticising Dawkins' books on evolution. But asserts that A Devil's Chaplain and Unweaving The Rainbow are shallow and poor quality.

He quotes some negative reviews of these books such as:

twin obsessions dominate [A Devil's Chaplain] namely darwinian evolution "hurrah" and religion "boo"

McGrath does not ground his attack in an actual analysis of the book however and I got the impression he was relying on his readers not to have read them. I did read A Devil's Chaplain and didn't at all find what he says to be the case at all. If the above quote is the case what of pieces like the review of Red Strangers or the moving article about Sanderson of Oundle to give only two examples?

Concerning the first quote from the catholic journal just take for starters its assertion he is against poetry. What came across strongly to me in Unweaving the Rainbow was Dawkins' excellent knowledge of poetry and his respect for the poets. He laments the negativity towards science showed by some poets but argues poetry and science should not be seen to be in opposition.

I haven't got Dawkins' God to hand but I recall its main points were a) a (quite good, by no means fatal) critique of Memetics which is all very well but Meme's are not necessary to atheism.

b) He seems to disown William Paley and says his views don't really represent theology. then he asserts that while Science leads to agnosticism the "leap of faith" from there to atheism is equal to that from agnosticism to theism(!) Ridiculous and like I say merely asserted in the book not backed up.

He also says something like "Dawkins assumes complexity implies improbability but this is an assumption that Dawkins's does not substantiate" It seems like a very reasonable assumption at the very least and once again McGrath doesn't develop the point.

Regarding that I recall according to Aquinas et al God is supposed to be "simple" McGrath doesn't pursue that line anyway, I suppose because it would only move not remove the question marks.

543. Is God a Delusion? Atheism and the Meaning of Life

Comment #22307 by BaronOchs on February 14, 2007 at 2:37 am

One man, at one talk he gave said he'd lost his Dawkinsian views as a result and

McGrath: "what you mean I actually managed to I . . .Yippeee I'll gloat about this in every talk for the next 20 years"

544. Is God a Delusion? Atheism and the Meaning of Life

Comment #22195 by BaronOchs on February 13, 2007 at 8:20 am

"Aye! And it was not by chance that the music of Richard Wagner was adopted with such zeal by that regime for Wagner is known to have extreme anti-Semitic views. There is no shortage of material on the web which covers this."

Wagner was an unpleasant man and every inch a protonazi. But that doesn't make any difference to his music which is totally excellent. Among his most prominent champions today is the jewish Daniel Barenboim. There was huge controversy when he attempted to perform Wagner in Israel, something he decided to do after hearing Ride of the Valkyries on a mobile ringtone. He had to compromise in the end but he shouldn't have had to, the fact an awful man can write great music is a cause for optimism rather than anything else.

Thanks scottishgeologist for the bit about Martin Luther. Worth remembering when you come across rubbish like this:

http://www.darwintohitler.com/

Blaming Darwin for Hitler is about as absurd as blaming Jesus. If any historical factor can be singled out for blame it is the centuries of christian anti-semitism which the book no doubt ignores completely.

545. Richard Dawkins interview with Paula Zahn

Comment #22151 by BaronOchs on February 13, 2007 at 4:18 am

Good interview by Richard Dawkins but this whole CNN thing makes me feel that if religion were staying I'd settle for the end of television quite honestly.

546. The God Delusion

Comment #21905 by BaronOchs on February 11, 2007 at 3:19 pm

"Firstly he catholic church did not burn witches or heretics. Witch trial were at the discretion of individual states and they preferred hanging anyway."
-Comment #21810 by FortunaAdiuvatForte

Very misleading, the seminal text for witchhunters was the Malleus Maleficarum of 1486, authored by two dominican priests Kramer and Sprenger. The content is frighteningly obscene (take the practice of "witchpricking" as just one example) as well as explicitly christian.

Kramer and Sprenger had begun their witchcraze in the Rheinland under the instigation of Innocent VIII's Bull Summis desiderantes affectibus.

The european witchcraze was utterly horrific and the church's involvement was explicit.

547. Evolution Sunday

Comment #21901 by BaronOchs on February 11, 2007 at 2:52 pm

In my days as a churchgoer I never encountered this. How many churches actually take part?

548. Sam Harris talks about 'The End of Faith'

Comment #21661 by BaronOchs on February 10, 2007 at 12:49 pm

Good Style! I like the way he delivers a knockdown point then follows it with a characteristic pause.

549. The questions science cannot answer

Comment #21639 by BaronOchs on February 10, 2007 at 9:27 am

It would probably be easiest for Richard Dawkins to just have the debate with him which would settle where the arguments lie.

550. Ancient boy's skeleton sparks evolution debate

Comment #21145 by BaronOchs on February 7, 2007 at 6:08 pm

Turkana Boy will be displayed in a private room, with limited access and behind a glass screen with 24-hour closed-circuit TV. Security guards will be at the entrance.

How sad, how pitifully sad that that must be the case.