601. The root of all evil?

Comment #43818 by Veronique on May 22, 2007 at 7:14 pm

drbreakfast

Both. Like you, I never bothered reading the bible, until TGD. I reckon I now know more of that wilfully written history(?) than most xtians.

And that is RD's point. They don't know what is in those pages and when it is pointed out to them, they call it parable, not to be taken literally etc etc.

Wouldn't do for a Discovery order would it? You could argue incomplete discovery and demand undiscovered documents - you wouldn't get 'em.

It is basically very sad and pathetic. And dangerous.

Cheers
V

602. Prayer can improve physical health

Comment #43812 by Veronique on May 22, 2007 at 6:37 pm

thirdchimpanzee

The last census reported some 70,000 Jedi Knights (I think, I am an accountant, therefore zeros are error margins). I always assumed they were atheists taking the piss.

I can't believe this article and I must say that the MJA must be losing its grip. I think, however, that Adelaide (in South Australia) is referred to as the City of Churches. Mr Jantos is a clinical psych in that city? A bit of a worry.

Mind you, this is a newspaper review by a non-scientist. She has cobbled her own article and may be trying not to offend her readers.

I agree with you konquererz. Meditation, for me, can be sitting next to my man-made creek watching all my goldfish swimming busily up and down, smiling in the fading sun, at peace with myself and my world with a glass of shiraz in one hand. Very salutary for the soul (and the heart; slows down quite remarkably).

Humble Pie, even when you allow for people lying on census forms (and they do), I am horrified to think that – let's say – 67% or so of my fellow Aussies profess a belief in the supernatural. Must work harder, wiping brow in frustration

scottishgeologist – so do axolotls and they don't pray (at least I have never met one who admitted to it), so, as far as I am concerned, atheism still rules.

Billy – I hadn't seen it written down. Priceless hahaha.

Okie - "Subsequently, my doctors were amazed at how quickly I was healing. "Way ahead of schedule" was how it was put to me. All because I actively participated in my recovery." I agree with youmemeyou (god, that's hard to spell without an error).

I am going with what I think this reporter is doing. Appeasing. The Australian used not be like that. No wonder I don't click onto it anymore.

Cheers
V

603. Mysteries to Behold in the Dark Down Deep: Seadevils and Species Unknown

Comment #43804 by Veronique on May 22, 2007 at 5:54 pm

Funny Grievous,

We are getting there. Patience dear friend. Oh! and funding as well:-)

As the poor old Antarctic melts, the marine biologists are estimating tens of thousands of weirdly beautiful and grotesquely shaped deep ocean creatures.

It was only last week or so, that specimens of some ten thousand NEW (as in never before seen, let alone contemplated) species have been collected as the ice shelfs fall away.

LeeLeeOne think about the extraordinary pressure those fragile little bodies have to withstand. It's mind boggling, isn't it? And the lights they chemically manufacture to see their way around and grab food. Cuttlefish have always fascinated me. I can watch them for hours and hours.

The taxonomists will be rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of finding names, arguing over the appropriateness of those names and coding them into neat little boxes. What fun.

Tell me how sitting around drinking cups of nectar, chatting about heavenly theology, having the odd game of 'celestial catch' and choir and harp practice could possibly be a more attractive prospect than 'lifting the veil' and observing with absolute wonder the extraordinary and busy lives of creatures we never knew about.

Religites may not be able to engage their intellects, but I can say for certain, that their capacity for imagination is also severely limited and their sense of natural wonder and awe non-existent.

Ain't life grand
V

604. The root of all evil?

Comment #43784 by Veronique on May 22, 2007 at 3:31 pm

Since Sunday night, the SMH has had 497 comments on the Compass programme with RD. I didn't look at all of them however the first 6 pages after cursory perusal looks like about 80% positive. Even the religites posting, don't take him to task vociferously.

Makes me feel better about Aussies. Mind you, I remember pointing out that our ABC only gets about 8% of the viewing population.

Next Sunday may pull more viewers to Part 2. Hope so.

You guys are saying and will say anything that I would want to comment on.

I refuse point blank to get into a match about the interpretation of bible stories. Waste of precious time. The Xtians have had nearly 2,000 years to get their story right and here we are trying to argue puerile points about a puerile book of stories, made up by so many faceless people. It's like 'he said, but he meant and then you said...'. Goes nowhere.

Can't tell you who John Huxley is but the article is untutored and uninformed.
NB Aussies can be lazy and skim rather than scan But we are basically a nice group:-)

Cheers
V

605. Cult leader sparks Sikh riots with 'guru' stunt

Comment #43644 by Veronique on May 22, 2007 at 7:14 am

Salutations to your husband Logicel, next month is the one. I hope the south of France is warm enough for him.

Great little repartee too Philip and pewkatchoo.

In most countries there is a bending of normal rules for the disabled. That there's another system that enables them as well is disturbing. Knives are dangerous implements to carry around regardless of 'cultural and religious' customs.

I can't understand what Canada thinks it's doing.
cybercoma, do you know offhand what percentage of the population is Sikh. They can be pretty hard line. A Sikh neighbour of mine disowned his daughter 20 odd years ago because she left home and went to the Gold Coast and married an Australian. He refuses to even speak her name. She is dead to him. Her mother sometimes gets reports of her well being from a female pipeline up and down the coast. She, of course, is distraught that she will never see her daughter or grandchildren.

Prior to all this, the daughter went to the local school, as did her brother, with my two sons. The family came to my house, the kids played together quite happily, we adults got on well together. The father and I used to take our bananas to the goods train some 20 miles ago and sit in the bar with a drink and chat with other banana growers. Very amicable. He changed though, after the girl left. He's getting older and surlier.

Sound familiar? It's only a peaceful religion if no one steps out of line. Then watch out.

Still not impressed by any one of these thousands of religious sects and their loopy rules and beliefs. Not one scrap.

Bed.
V

606. Scientists Draw Link Between Morality And Brain's Wiring

Comment #43631 by Veronique on May 22, 2007 at 6:40 am

47. Comment #43461 by Tsjok45

Thank you for that link. I will go through it later. Looks marvellous.

I remember Mind_Rebel telling us a while ago he was working on his written English. Cut him some slack, (and well said Logicel) at least he hasn't given up on us. I think you said you were Mexican, is that right Mind_Rebel? And may I please call you Rebel? It's easier to type.

This article makes me feel as though there is going to be some good research on its way. Sam Harris will be pleased. I recall reading a book by a medical and science writer – Rita Carter. She put together a great book called Mapping the Mind published 1998 in which she charts case histories, both historical and current, of the brain and its relation to the molding of human culture and behaviour. I am sure most of you know this book. Now, ten years later, more is emerging. It is all to the good, definitely worth funding and becoming excited about (quietly, of course).

And Luthien, I didn't know that video was on youtube. Wonderful. It would have been made about 1985 by my reckoning. He made some excellent points and illustrated co-operative behaviour well. Also non co-operative behaviour and its consequences. Some of the comments on that thread showed that a number of viwers had no idea what he was saying. Sad.

Bed time
V

607. Would the World Be Safer Without Religion?

Comment #43559 by Veronique on May 22, 2007 at 2:11 am

Richard

It has been quite some time since I read any of David Robertson's posts. I read the replies to his posts, but the long, drawn out, circular arguments, repeated over and over again just bore the shit out me.

I was so diligent when I started at this site and read every comment. I found that I was reading through David Robertson's comments and shouting into the computer. Now, arguing with a computer means that one day I will have to seek help. So I made it simple. I stopped reading his comments. Problem solved (sort of). Besides a lot of other posters do read him and distil whatever it is he is saying and comment. Brilliant!

You'll have noticed I don't comment as much as I used to. Sometimes I feel a bit like Yorker when he left one of the Falwell articles a week or so ago. He's back though. It's a wonderful site and I still click on it every morning with my first cup of tea and check out what's been happening overnight. I enjoy doing this for an hour or so, answering emails, posting on news sites. All good fun (well, most of the time. I am becoming a bit manic about honour killings at the moment and am searching out as much as I can. It's very enlightening, and very frightening).

I have to tell you that one of my ex-husbands was like your ex-wife, which is why I was laughing so hard. Needless to say I am now single. At the time, I called it carping. And that's basically what David is doing, d'you see.

I loved your next post too. I haven't seen that little poem for decades. Excellent!

The News has started. Got to go
V:-)

608. Would the World Be Safer Without Religion?

Comment #43550 by Veronique on May 22, 2007 at 1:36 am

Richard

I am laughing too hard at your post to answer you. I will get back to you when I have had a calming wine and finished the comments.

Utter frustration is utterly draining. Buck up. If you are not bald, please don't tear your hair out. Hahahaha.

With smiles and a toast to you
V

609. A meeting of unlike minds

Comment #43521 by Veronique on May 21, 2007 at 10:18 pm

Thanks for that MelM.

It was Daniel Dennett that dubbed Hitchens an equal-opportunity embarrasser with regard to religion. He's right. Hitchens gives no quarter to any faith-based belief and why should he? English would have been better declining the debate. He apparently suspected beforehand that he would be wiped. Ah well.

I certainly don't have a problem with Hitch lumping all religions, cults and sects together as rubbish. All religions seem to me to be hatched from the same egg. They just grow a little differently and skew out in different ways.

They all rely on a superstitious fantasy that this life is not worth it, the next one will be better.

Now, I am quite in favour of delayed gratification but religion takes the phrase to a new level.

Cheers
V

610. The Paradoxical Hatred of Christopher Hitchens

Comment #43496 by Veronique on May 21, 2007 at 6:55 pm

Baron

Thank you for making me smile:-). I have just left a post on the Iraqi arrests article and haven't smiled for several hours. I looked at this link posted by Joanne

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/. It is very sobering. I spent about three hours clicking on news items from everywhere. London killings at 4 a week is mind shattering. We only really knew about Du'a. There are hundreds and hundreds of these reported and thousands more not reported.

Fanusi Khiyal - what you have been trying to say here is well attested to on the above link. It just gets more frightening as time goes on. I don't know where it will end.

Our political freedom is a luxury not afforded to those for whom survival is a constant in their daily lives.

Need a cuppa
V

611. Four arrested in Iraq 'honor killing'

Comment #43493 by Veronique on May 21, 2007 at 6:37 pm

Joanne,

I have just spent about three hours on the web site that you linked.

J.C. Samuelson, take a look as well.

I can't even smile at the moment. This honour killing is rife and unchecked. Iraq is way out of control. It is truly horrifying. I had read of this in Riverbend's blog, but had no idea how out of control it is.

I can't talk. Thank you Joanne for the link.

V

612. The Paradoxical Hatred of Christopher Hitchens

Comment #43245 by Veronique on May 21, 2007 at 2:31 am

BAEOZ

I hope you have switched on your message notification button in preferences in your profile on forum on this site. I have just sent you a PM.

Cheers
V

613. The Paradoxical Hatred of Christopher Hitchens

Comment #43229 by Veronique on May 21, 2007 at 12:57 am

86. Comment #43212 by BAEOZ

Poor Tassie. No wonder you have its devil as your avatar. And, of course, you are right; it is the best thing that Bob Brown represents that poor state.

And, Peter Cundall lives there! That's a positive.

Would you care to add your voice to those urging the female Libs in the Federal (I hate the snuck-in, under the radar use of 'Australian' in this context) Parliament to lift the ban? If so, contact me by PM through the forum link and write to me. I will be notified of your message and can respond with the email addresses of these Federal pollies.

Cheers
V

614. The Paradoxical Hatred of Christopher Hitchens

Comment #43210 by Veronique on May 20, 2007 at 8:46 pm

83. Comment #43207 by BAEOZ

You are absolutely right!! It was Heffernan. Must be the double consonants in both their names:-)

Sorry for the misinformation everyone. I suspect they are as misogynistic as each other though.

So, did you realise our aid was constrained the way it is Baeoz? I can't believe I didn't know! It came through on a Greens' media alert a few days ago.

Cheers
V

615. The Paradoxical Hatred of Christopher Hitchens

Comment #43209 by Veronique on May 20, 2007 at 8:41 pm

Lindaj

I think people here are able to discriminate between an individual, his various views on a variety of topics and prefer to play the ball rather than the man. At least, one would hope so.

The possible exception lately, was Falwell, who appeared to have no redeeming features at all. So the ball and the man were the same.

That's what I was alluding to in my first post #6. I am thoroughly enjoying Hitch's book god is not Great. That doesn't necessarily make me a groupie. In fact, I take exception to being lumped into any group.

This site is usually a delight for me, I take instruction, information and am able to post my comments when and how I see fit. I am not a Dawkins' groupie either.

I subscribe to Sam Harris' email information as well. I am not a Harris groupie.

Please be a little more careful about grouping people where they decline to be grouped.

For all that, welcome to you.

Thanks
V

616. The Paradoxical Hatred of Christopher Hitchens

Comment #43202 by Veronique on May 20, 2007 at 7:50 pm

64. Comment #43086 by Logicel

You are quite right. But cop this one.

I have just been apprised of the fact that the AusAID we give to developing countries has a caveat: that of not using the aid to further abortion information and attendant reproductive health measures. I was gobsmacked. The only other country with this kind of ban on its aid is America. Abortion just has to be an option in developing countries as well as in our own.

So I have written to our female Liberal Party members telling them exactly what I think and urging them to lift this ban (The Greens are tabling a bill tp addrees this). The ban was instigated by one Brian Harradine, arguably the biggest misogynist in our Parliament.

A couple of weeks ago he was reported as saying that Julia Gillard (Deputy Leader of the Labor Party) had no right to be in that office because she was 'barren'. Can you believe it? He withdrew the remark after a public uproar. Gillard, cleverly made no comment on the fact that she and her partner had made a decision to not reproduce.

Duh, it just doesn't stop.
V

Oh, and Baron don't change your name - we'll just drop the 'Ochs' if you like:-) Hahaha, was a shock no?

617. Four arrested in Iraq 'honor killing'

Comment #43176 by Veronique on May 20, 2007 at 3:47 pm

5. Comment #42872 by Joanne

I didn't really think it would stop. I guess I am not surprised that 12 more have been killed. And there will probably be more reprisal killings. OWFI has an almost impossible task. I wish I knew the answer. Those who are committed to changing this mindset haven't an answer.

The record of organised religion over the years is truly ghastly, and there is little that the Muslim fanatics are doing today that you can't find some historical record of Christians doing in the past. Currently, there are Christian loonies in the US who condone the killing of abortionists in order to advance their "pro-life" beliefs (figure that one out if you can!) – my brother's comment on viewing RD's The Root of all Evil, the first part of which was aired on our ABC (Australia) last night. The Muslims who have been calling for secularism are not making much headway yet.

The Yazidi religion is more intolerant and elitist than even Islam Brian. There are about 100,000 (some say up to 700,000) of them in Kurdistan, Syria, Iran and Turkey. They don't allow inter-marriage at all even among their other, neighbouring Kurds. They segregate themselves from all others amongst whom they live. Their sacred site is just north of Mosul. Here is a link (one of many)

http://i-cias.com/e.o/uyazidism.htm

ScottishGeologist, according to brittanica.com, they believe they were created separately from the rest of mankind and are not descended from Adam. However, in the above link, it is reported that they believe they are descended from Adam while the rest of the world is descended from Eve (therefore, inferior)! This is elitism to a pathological degree.

My brother also noted: As RD was talking of how suicide bombers are recruited, I recalled that the religion of the Aztecs did not conduct its human sacrifices on unwilling victims. The children marked out for sacrifice were well aware of it, and were taught to believe that they had been selected for a noble cause. It's interesting because the historical and cultural divide enables us to view this with a certain detachment, compared to the here and now of the suicide bombers, yet the processes of indoctrination are alarmingly similar.

This has become a little off topic, sorry. But it does point out RD's and others' theses that religion certainly is a root of all evil. Their call for honest enquiry is also under threat.

Grey morning
V

618. Goodness without Godliness

Comment #42849 by Veronique on May 20, 2007 at 1:28 am

Thank you John Moore.

Nice to see a well leavened article. Nice to read a decent article on the current (and growing) state of play in the battle for supremacy between faith and reason.

Nice to see a non polemicist just putting his point of view. Nice to read a bloke merely saying he has no faith. Nice that he just says what he thinks. Nice to see that he understands that morality has nothing to do with the 'shopping list' of the bible's ten commandments. The only place you get caught is in Pascal's wager. It is a non event and a non wager. I think however, that you do understand this. Try probability as an antedote for agnoticism. Just don't spend the rest of your life writing zeros for that probability that god exists. Waste of time in my book.

Well done mister. You're all right. You suit me. Just never become an apologist for the believers (I can't see that you ever will). Enjoy your two ministers of religion and engage them in dialogue. Not debate - that's impossible.

Your article has lowered my blood pressure. I hope there are many of you out there and I hope you all write something in the public arena.

We can be a bit rabid here and you can't really blame us. The damage we see being perpetrated by religious fervour and cant gets us riled. And angry. And vociferous. And disparaging.

That's okay too. But it is good to see your article that reflects non belief as a normal way of being.

Thank you
V

619. The Paradoxical Hatred of Christopher Hitchens

Comment #42844 by Veronique on May 20, 2007 at 1:05 am

This guy hasn't got a clue. The Hitch is acerbic and vitriolic about religion of all kinds. Go Hitch.

Falwell's occasional objectionable remark? God save us all. How come these apologists can't get underneath the 'remarks' to see a deeply irrational and disturbed mind like Falwell's, Robertson's and any number of them?

The only thing I can say about Hitch is that I do not agree with his stance on Iraq nor do I agree with his comments about Wolfowitz. I think that Hitch likes stirring the pot. He does it very well and gets up people's noses. That's what complicated people tend to do. Especially egocentric ones. Especially intolerant ones. That's the Hitch. And his grasp of language and how to use it for his own purpose is very well developed. Who has a problem with that? You either agree or not. But Limbaugh can't hold a candle to Hitch's diatribe. He shouldn't have bothered making any comment at all. Dickhead.

You can't put them (the Hitchs of the world) into a box and say Well there he is, that's where he sits, that what he believes, I can understand that. It is coherent in every way with the way I think. Bunkum.

Pieter I can't blame you for quoting the Colbert Report. It was terrific:-). I am not one for much liking of American humour, but I did like this one.

Cheers
V

620. Four arrested in Iraq 'honor killing'

Comment #42838 by Veronique on May 20, 2007 at 12:44 am

I recall thinking, at the time, this appalling news hit the world's airwaves, that it was probably the first time such brutality and death had been captured on mobile phone videos.

That four people (from her family) have been arrested and three Kurdish police officers are under investigation is possibly the best outcome any of us could have expected. I don't really expect that much will happen to these men, however it does indicate a change in climate, if only for a little while.

I fear, however, that the next death will not be recorded and that 'security' will clamp down on mobile phone carriers recording the barbaric goings on of a group of people so caught in their religious and cultural system that compassion is a word unknown to them.

And what about the 'retribution'? 24 Yazidi men taken from a bus and shot by members of Al Qaeda? What's with that story? We know little about it. Will the perpetrators of that horror be arrested? I doubt it. They will have melted away into the background by now. What an awful place to live out one's life.

I hope I am wrong. The Organisation of Women's Freedom in Iraq may develop more muscle from this and be able exert some influence over legislation. That's pretty poor as well. We all know that legislation doesn't put much of a brake on human behaviour. The penalties have to be severe to have any effect whatsoever. And it only captures a small number.

What if these killings then go underground and no one witnesses them or records them?

Sorry, officer, we have no idea where she is or what could have happened to her. Sorry sir, we can't help you. We would like to but, unfortunately, we have no information about her disappearance or whereabouts.

Sounds familiar doesn't it?

I wish it could be different
V

621. The Fastest-Growing Religion

Comment #42833 by Veronique on May 20, 2007 at 12:28 am

I had a daughter-in-law (now ex - my son divorced her) who professed to believe in Wicca. I didn't meet her until they were divorced so the following has nothing to do with their relationship problems.

I recall at the time I renamed it Whacker and thought she was a wanker (Yorker, I'll explain it this time:-). Wanker is a sardonic term that pertains to the Australian expression for disrespect and bullshit).

I have also mentioned somewhere here that I have a friend who believes in the Universe.

I cannot, for the life of me, understand how these 'beliefs' differ in any respect from the beliefs held by organised religions. All both of these women had done is substitute the words Wicca and the Universe for god, the flying spaghetti monster, zeus, the celestial teapot, allah, buddha or any of the thousands of other superstitious, super beings that anyone might imagine looks after each individual earthling's wishes.

It is all such arrant nonsense and hubris to look at the universe and decide that some being or 'force' (to quote the jedi knights quasi fun god) takes notice of any one tiny speck of a world, let alone the 6.6 billion tinier specks that inhabit that tiny speck.

Christ, where do these people get off? They are all legends in their own lunchtime and have no understanding that they merely animals with adrenal glands that are too large and pre-frontal lobes that are too small. I love that quote from the Hitch!


That Wicca is growing as a quasi religion is a sobering thought. The displacement of one belief for another is depressing in the extreme. I hold little hope for human kind. People are seemingly subsumed by drongoism.

Maybe we should promote drongoism as a belief system that has as its higher order, rationality. It could be something to aspire to. The training could be rigorous, debriefing being the first rung. I need some help here, to develop this thought.

I need a drink
V

622. Pedal power takes Islamic shape in Iran

Comment #42791 by Veronique on May 19, 2007 at 3:55 pm

Thank you everyone for all the links. MrEmpirical, sorry for the hiccup on these pages.

If I find myself caught again, I will run it past you and Newton and Beave.

You are right about JFK as well. There's a new one out there at the moment.

It's sunny here too Newton so off I go as well!! Thanks

V

623. Pedal power takes Islamic shape in Iran

Comment #42668 by Veronique on May 19, 2007 at 2:49 am

Newton

Thank you very much for your refutation. 'Tis good we have so many different skills on these threads. Keeps us aware of possibilities of scam and the aforesaid conspiracy theories.

I took the liberty of sending your response to my bro in Perth, Newton. I hope you don't mind.

Cheers
V

624. Pedal power takes Islamic shape in Iran

Comment #42622 by Veronique on May 18, 2007 at 6:00 pm

Baron

Yes, I also think they have a surprisingly good case. None of us can actually check all the points they make. Besides the deed is done. It always interested me that the videos tracking the planes were very well done. It was almost as if there were cameras on tripods waiting in the wings as it were. You know, to record it all for posterity.

I am not in America, and the news sort of sounded chaotic at the time, but I am not sure about those brilliant videos.

I think that the ones who are prepared to do these hard yards, if their assumptions can be proved, then a charge will end up on Kucinich's articles of impeachment.

I can say that detonated implosions (some not so well placed) are very likely. I guess that impressed on you as well. The economic and political machinations are disputable (well, sort of, maybe).

Cheers
V

625. Pedal power takes Islamic shape in Iran

Comment #42603 by Veronique on May 18, 2007 at 3:15 pm

Ridelo

I am not one for conspiracy theories with which the world seemingly abounds:-)

A couple of months ago, I came across all manner of stuff concerning 9/11. It intrigued me for a while and I am posting a link below for you. I can't really comment, because I just don't know. I do know a bit about demolition however, having played 'powder monkey' in Lightning Ridge for a year. I found the video fascinating.

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=15716

I presume that Greg Felton, the author of the article I posted earlier may well have seen this video and searched other links as well. There is really quite a lot on this; some reports more convincing than others.

Anyway take a look.

Hi Yorker

It was an interesting article. I read so much and so eclectically, I find it difficult to remember where I find op-eds and other information.

However, I note the levity stayed here:-) I love the poems as well.

Cheers
V

626. Jerry Falwell's Hit Parade

Comment #42601 by Veronique on May 18, 2007 at 2:53 pm

Hi Baron

Yes, yes, I recant everything:-) He was a lovely fellow, just misunderstood by all of us who misunderstood the same thing. Wow! We're slow!!

Thanks everyone for putting MindRebel and me right about which televangelist did what. I smack my wrist for not checking. They seem to be an odd bunch though. Squeaky clean when in the public eye, I would have thought to be paramount. I guess Wolfowitz is learning that now.

Devolved

You haven't really addressed the points I raised. All I get is a smidgen of a source. Damn, I don't feel valued at all.

Ah, well. Onto the newer posts. See you there.
V

627. Freethinking Ruins All Things

Comment #42257 by Veronique on May 18, 2007 at 2:06 am

This is my response to the original article.

Why do you and the rest of the xtian god botherers not accept that South American and Chinese and Japanese (and who knows how many others) predate your conception of religion and who is the true god? Your holy book was never written by anyone else but fallible and prosletysing human beings.

These afore-mentioned cultures predated xtianity which only ever related to Mesopotamia and its surrounds. It didn't even take into account the tribes to the north east of the Caspian, let alone the eastern reaches of our world. Do you want to assert that these peoples didn't exist in your religion's time frame? Do you want to assert that your xtian god (who supposedly created humanity) didn't know of the peoples outside his chosen realm? And what about the billions of planets that we know exist? We are special with a personal god who listens to the prayers of each one of the 6.6B people who inhabit this tiny little planet.

Are you trying to kid me? I think so. So I leave you. You have an extremely small egocentric mind and little understanding. You try to explain the unknowable by putting it in terms of the not worth knowing.

Bed time
V

628. Jerry Falwell's Hit Parade

Comment #42249 by Veronique on May 18, 2007 at 1:35 am

Oh, and I should say well done, Timothy Noah

You picked him in one. A parasite who made squillions on the fear and incredulity of others.

V

629. Jerry Falwell's Hit Parade

Comment #42238 by Veronique on May 18, 2007 at 1:03 am

28. Comment #42198 by Bizarro Dawkins

Falwell was engaged in adultery. I understand that he cheated on his wife! His repentance was seen by someone on these threads that said he cried while repenting on public TV broadcasting.

Come on now!
V

630. Jerry Falwell's Hit Parade

Comment #42235 by Veronique on May 18, 2007 at 12:50 am

25. Comment #42191 by devolved

I prefer the SOD to Merriam Webster. A lovely book to read is the story of the OED The Surgeon of Crowthorne by Simon Winchester.

Religion: obligation (as of an oath), bond between man and the gods, scrupulousness, scruple(s), reverence for the gods.

There are 6 sub descriptions of associated meanings, all relating to man's relationship to the gods or divine ruling power and, interestingly to monastic life. Hey Baron!!

King James Version Heb 11:1
Faith: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

SOD again. My hard copy, is the 1992 edition. Not so old as to be unable to supply common usage and etymology of words commonly used. Read Winchester, I would think you would enjoy it.

Faith: Confidence, reliance, trust. In early use only with reference to religious objects.
As you can imagine, there is a lot more in the entry, however, the above equates to the tenor of what you are quoting.

Words are bloody fascinating Devolved. The nuances that attribute to usage in various times and by various peoples tends to obscure meaningful (or at least agreed on) dialogue.

For this reason, I can't comment on the Dawkins' quote, because I don't know that the words are exactly the words he would have used or whether nuances interpreted have changed those actual words.

What I think I can say, is that you are using Highfield's quote of Dawkins' words to insinuate and build an argument that must, of necessity fall over.

Evolution as described by both Darwin and Wallace has nothing to do with 'religion'. You don't cite your source for your description of evolution as 'religion'. You merely make a statement.

Surely you have been on this site long enough to know that evolution theory is a scientific theory that waits to be disproved while ever the evidence to support it is growing exponentially.

SOD again and you will appreciate that this entry is quite long as well. In terms in which we are engaging the word in this sense of Darwinian evolution theory:-

Evolution: Biol. a of animal and vegetable organisms or their parts: the process of developing from a rudimentary to a complete state 1670. c The origination of species conceived as a process of development from earlier forms, and not as due to 'special creation'. 1832.

That's probably enough for our purposes.

Your postulate 'that you don't need to believe in the supernatural to have a religion' is a clear nonsense. Would you care to walk us through to your conclusion? Diligently, I would hope.

You say that 'Atheist evolutionists believe by faith that the evidence points to a universe and life created by luck. Christians believe by faith that exactly the same evidence points to a supernatural creator.'

Could you explain the 'faith' needed by atheist evolutionists for the abundance of evidence supporting evolution theory? We have already defined 'faith'. Your comment doesn't equate. It only equates to your comment about Christian 'faith'.

You don't cite your source for Michael Ruse's quote. I have been looking at some of the articles thrown up by a google search on Ruse (there are 76,500 of them). He is at an interesting stage of his life. He is a dead set evolutionist who grew up believing that religion and evolution could co-exist.

He certainly takes exception to Dawkins, Harris, Dennett et al. But not on evolutionary grounds. On a cursory look, he appears to object to the mantra and, I must say, he is hardly a polite, retiring scientist. His somewhat blustery answers in interviews (ie. Salon) certainly don't distance him from the above-mentioned Dawkins, Harris, Dennett et al. He is not religious and believes that creationism is a load of 'clap trap' (Salon interview). In fact he battles the creationist agenda and has done so for many years. To use a 'quote' from him in isolation and uncited is the height of manipulation and could almost be seen as Machiavellian in intent.

I may be a pedant, but I try to cite my sources and not discombobulate people. I think you may have a charge to answer.

I look forward to your considered and cogent reply, with sources.

V

631. Jerry Falwell's Hit Parade

Comment #42146 by Veronique on May 17, 2007 at 5:41 pm

Oh Biz,

I didn't realise you had gone to Liberty U. How very sad.

I know I have had a go at you in other posts, but I had not realised where your indoctrination into the tertiary realm had led you. What made you go to Falwell's U instead of Patrick Henry U? Do you aspire to end up as an aide/intern in the White House too?

Biz, I have trawled the internet these last hours since Falwell died. It is not just here that Falwell's legacy is being villified. It's all over the web. I certainly didn't realise how much he was hated, but it is apparent now.

Most people I have mentioned his name to in my town in Australia had never heard of him. So I related some of his more memorable quotes and all of them were horrified.

As Logicel has said, he didn't make slight errors of judgement when talking publicly. He espoused the most whopping hatreds. And it was his actions that propelled Reagan into power and has helped keep an increasingly bigoted section of the Republican religious right in power.

He was instrumental in, what has to be, the most intransigent behaviour of your Administration in orchestrating the utter destruction of a country, the reverberations of which will be felt for generations throughout the middle east. His influence has, in part, led to your country losing its international standing at the fastest rate of knots ever. And you want to defend him? Oh dear. Have you learnt nothing from your time on the web site? How very sad.

He was deliberately divisive, he didn't even try to be conciliatory: he wanted to foist his (thinly held, I suspect) beliefs on the world at large. He was against everything that has brought us into the 21st century. He was a very rude man; he had no socially acceptable behaviour patterns. He made squillions of dollars out of a (mainly) poorly educated but emotionally vulnerable congregation. Now MindRebel tells us that he cheated on his wife and stole from his church! What manner of christian man was he? Surely not someone you could honestly defend.

I am not even sure that he believed what he said. His conversion to extreme religion came very quickly, expecially when his upbringing had had no religious content whatsoever.

And it is no excuse to say that he didn't fit very well into modern society and mores. No excuse at all.

It does make me ponder as to whether he was a snake oil salesman after all...

Take your higher education to a properly accredited institution so that you may mix with the best.

Cheers
V

632. Pedal power takes Islamic shape in Iran

Comment #42118 by Veronique on May 17, 2007 at 4:37 pm

Good morning Yorker

Forget the levity you lot. I have come across this interesting article - it's a couple of days old now. At least there's a positivity in it, which, I think, we often ignore. And have any of you read Riverbend's blog from Iraq? I think she has finished now, the family is getting out of Baghdad.
This came from Media Monitors

Bertrand Russell writes most eloquently on the Dark Age of Isramerican tyranny
by Greg Felton -(Friday, May 11, 2007)

"Wherever there is power, there is a temptation to encourage irrational credulity in those who are subject to the power in question."-Bertrand Russell

It may be argued that the great Welsh philosopher and mathematician Bertrand Russell could not possibly have anything relevant to say about modern U.S. politics since he died more than 37 years ago.

In a purely chronological sense that may be true, but a person's wisdom has a timeless quality. During periods of unreason, fear, and absurdity, old thinking becomes especially important, for it contains truths that thrived before being censored or scorned.

Europe would never have emerged from the tyranny and obscurantism of the Catholic Church if Arabs like ibn Rushd and al-Hasan ibn Haytham had not preserved and passed on the knowledge contained in classical Greek texts. Because of the Arabs, interest in the seven liberal arts and the writings of Aristotle, Plato, Xenophon, Praxiteles, Archimedes and others were reborn in, well, a Renaissance of learning.

In a real sense, we owe our modern, democratic, scientific age to the Great Arab Used Book Store, which gave Europeans an alternative to the intellectually ossified scholasticism of the day.

Today, we are again in the midst of a Dark Age, where logic, reason and moral sense are being stamped out by religious tyranny and obscurantism. Like its Medieval predecessor, this new church, The Church of Zionist Rectitude, uses torture, murder, intimidation and blackmail to enforce obedience to its verities.

Scholars, artists, politicians and journalists who point out the patent absurdities underlying the cult of Israeli/Jewish victimhood, "the war on terrorism" or the official narrative of the Sept. 11 attack, for example, are persecuted and ostracized, just as Christian Church persecuted freethinkers who pointed out inconsistencies in official dogmata surrounding the origin of life, the structure of the universe, or the veracity of the Bible.

The Muslim world that brought us out of the darkness, and to which the West owes an incalculable debt, is now vilified at will by the new church. From the new pulpits of cable television, newspapers, radio and the Internet, the CZR's army of preachers flood our senses daily with superstition and intolerance so that free, critical thought on canonical zionist matters should become impossible.

In this the "Disinformation Age," therefore, we must not accept at face value what we read, see or hear or accede to arbitrary frames of reference, and this point brings me back to Russell.

In a local used bookstore last week I picked up his 1957 book Understanding History and Other Essays. One of these other essays is The Value of Free Thought written in 1944. By "free thought," Russell did not mean simple opposition to authority, but rational thought free of coercion or the tyranny of one's passions. The observations he made then are directly applicable to our new Dark Age.

"Wherever there is power, there is a temptation to encourage irrational credulity in those who are subject to the power in question."

For proof of this abuse of power, we need look no further than the official narrative of Sept. 11. Despite conclusive proof that the World Trade Centre was deliberately imploded, many seemingly intelligent people still believe the irrational "official narrative" that blames Muslim hijackers for the disaster.

In fact, the propaganda has been encouraged so effectively--beginning in the first hour after the first plane hit--that some people, including the leader of one local Arab organization, cannot even discuss the matter. This kind of invincible ignorance makes tyranny possible.

"The modern advances in the art of propaganda have been met with no corresponding advances in training to resist propaganda."

Even though Russell was writing in a time before e-mail, URLs and blogs, the statement is still valid. There is no training to resist propaganda, because an enlightened, informed citizenry is not in the interests of industry or government, both of which are self-serving entities.

If anything, those who challenge propaganda face vilification as well as well-oiled propaganda machines. Former President Jimmy Carter wrote a book detailing the apartheid practices of Israel, and for his efforts he has been savagely attacked by Alan Dershowitz and other intellectual kneecappers for the CZR. In a more general sense, we have legitimized propaganda. "Public relations officers" (professional propagandists) in industry and government are trained to lie with style on behalf of their employers.

"Moral codes which are irrational, and have no basis except in superstition, cannot long survive the habit of disinterested thinking."

The best example of an irrational morality in decline is zionism. To the disinterested thinker, the notion that the world should do nothing while Jews hide behind the myth of a divine land grant to murder and dispossess Palestinians is no longer defensible, as if it ever was. So perverse is the idea of Israeli democracy that it can only be propped up by censorship and wholesale coercion of foreign governments.

"The populations of the world, one by one, as 'civilization' reaches them, go down into a dark pit of madness, where all that is worth preserving perishes in aimless slaughter."

Russell was writing during the last days of Nazi Germany and many of his criticisms are directed at fascist and communist states alike, but this observation is also a perfect description of the U.S. destruction of Iraq.

"Aimless slaughter" describes not only the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis murdered, but also the thousands of U.S. soldiers whose lives are being wasted in a war that was deliberately provoked for reasons unrelated to the U.S. national interest.

"If a population is to escape tyranny, it must have a free-thinking attitude towards its government and the theories upon which its government is based; that is to say, it must demand that the government act in the general interest, and [it] must not be deceived by a superstitious theology into the belief that what is in fact only the interest of the governing clique is identical to the general interest."

This statement encapsulates the dilemma of the thinking American--how do I force the government to act in the general interest when the general interest means nothing to the government which is driven by superstitious theology?

Congress is overrun by Christian sociopaths; the Israel Lobby dictates foreign policy and co-opts legislators to serve the interests of a foreign government; and the country itself has become a de facto police state.

Short of armed insurrection, I don't have an answer to the question, but those who want to put an end to the Dark Age could show conspicuous support for free-thinkers in academia, the press and government who are trying to end the Dark Age, and embrace the motto of the Enlightenment "sapere aude"--dare to know.

I hope you liked it
V

633. Educated, Inspired Conservative Christians

Comment #41726 by Veronique on May 16, 2007 at 5:40 pm

I just looked at the posts to the original article. An awful lot of the comments sound like those on these threads, however the battle lines are drawn. A lot of xtians posting as well. Hundreds of posts.

The best:

Death of a Salesman

Radical cleric Falwell made the Iranian Ayatollahs look moderate.

V

634. Educated, Inspired Conservative Christians

Comment #41721 by Veronique on May 16, 2007 at 5:15 pm

Having had very little interest in religion of any sort I never knew much about Falwell except for his more awful quotes that hit the airwaves and the university he founded.

Over the past 18 months of so, I have developed an intense dislike of fundamental religious dogma and its proponents.

This article was interesting to me, not because it totally bypassed the bigotted rantings of Falwell, but because the person writing it can't see any of that. He sees a totally different person from the one I have been introduced to since Falwell's death. The comments here and on other web sites lead me to believe that Falwell had no friends outside his own in-group. I checked out WebnetDaily and found an article quoting maybe a half dozen or so positive comments, including one from Bush. But everything else is utterly negative.

The fact that so many have called him evil and have posted so many very vitriolic and hate-filled quotes by Falwell leaves me with little doubt as to his mindset. Yet Mohler doesn't see any of that.

Amazing juxtaposition of two totally and diametrically opposed points of view. Just staggering.

Wow
V

635. Pope Warns of Globalization, Marxism

Comment #41681 by Veronique on May 16, 2007 at 2:55 pm

Bonzai

I love your nickname for him - Benny! LOL

Seriously, he may be the best thing that has happened to catholicism. The more he comes out and says things that get up his own congregation's nose the sooner people will leave the church.

Unfortunately they won't leave 'faith' as quickly.:-(

The evangelicals' number has risen in exchange. And that's not good either.

Oh well. At least the Hitch has slated Falwell in death as well as in life.

V

636. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41549 by Veronique on May 16, 2007 at 9:40 am

5 pages on this thread!! And he's only been dead a day. I am blown out.

Check out Alternet (and probably every other internet news site). Not one poster has anything good to say about this vitriolic and hateful man. I didn't respect him in life, why should I now he's dead? That particular convention would be pure hypocrisy in this case.

I have never seen anything like it!! Hitch's interview says it very well. I am certainly not sorry this man is dead.

While I can understand the relief at his demise (diversely expressed on this thread), unfortunately there are so many others like him.

637. One side can be wrong

Comment #41301 by Veronique on May 15, 2007 at 8:31 pm

Of course Yorker!!

One forgets what slang is acceptable in one country or another. Thank you for ensuring our US friends understood what I meant.

I believe the Brits were pissed off with an Aussie ad. for tourism asking the question 'Come on, where the bloody hell are you?'

I am not sure now, whether it was banned for a short time in the UK or has been banned forever. We poor Aussies couldn't understand what the fuss was about. LOL Bloody hell is one of our finest epithets!

And bugger is nearly always used with a smile (like bastard). We use a different set of naughty words to indicate displeasure or anger or even, for that matter, disbelief.

We've been here before Yorker. Language is always wonderful fun to talk about:-)

Cheers
V

638. BBC man says 'I was wrong to lose it. But these scientologists are truly scary'

Comment #41292 by Veronique on May 15, 2007 at 7:51 pm

19. Comment #40835 by Aidan86

Thanks for that Aidan. I didn't realise it had been repealed.

Never the less, it is dangerous, like a number of cults. Remember the Moonies? My cousin's daughter had to be deprogrammed after my cousin physically went to the US and basically kidnapped her daughter out of their clutches.

Cheers
V

639. Christopher Hitchens Explains It All for You: Move over, Sam Harris; another atheist wants the pulpit

Comment #41236 by Veronique on May 15, 2007 at 4:58 pm

3. Comment #40908 by gcdavis

In another article by Dennett, he calls Hitchens an equal-opportunity embarrasser. Sums him up don't you think?

No religion, cult, sect whatever could ever expect any quarter from the Hitch. His book is great, even though he himself isn't:-)

And to Preston Jones, please remember that because religion doesn't engage the intellect, Hitch has no need of reason when pointing out the absurdity of all religions including, but not limited to, yours.

Cheers
V

640. Unbelievable: That's what religion is, says Christopher Hitchens in his profoundly skeptical manifesto

Comment #41231 by Veronique on May 15, 2007 at 4:51 pm

Hitchens is an equal - opportunity embarrasser. LOL. Just lovely.

Thanks Prof. Good to see.

Martin - he is as acerbic as ever, utterly unrepentant, witty, sarcastic and funny. I am in the middle of reading it - he suits me down to the ground.

Cheers
V

641. Statement of Concern about Impact of AIG's Creation 'Museum'

Comment #41219 by Veronique on May 15, 2007 at 4:27 pm

14. Comment #41016 by Dower

Mythology is where all gods go to die
Sam Harris

Back on quotes again. God, I love quotes, they are so pithy!

17. Comment #41058 by flobear

Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived
Issac Asimov

All right, all right, I'll stop :-)

Cheers
V

642. One side can be wrong

Comment #40826 by Veronique on May 15, 2007 at 4:20 am

Yorker

You lucky bugger - fancy waking up to that. Well done and nice into the bargain.

I'll accept that. Short post, got to go to bed.

V

643. Pale Blue Dot

Comment #40809 by Veronique on May 15, 2007 at 3:11 am

I sen this video to everyone in my address book as my reflections on Good Friday.

It makes me weep; it is so beautiful. I must be very squishy and thank you guys for loving it as well.

We all miss him so much. But what a legacy he has left. I need to get this video into our local high school. It should be shown everywhere.

The biggest bummer was a reply I got from a Catholic friend I sent it to. She replied that she didn't see things the way I did, that Christ wanted us to love life and look after our environment. WTF? Some people are blind and no glasses will help them see.

In sorrow and hope
V

644. Pope: God Will Punish Drug Dealers

Comment #40803 by Veronique on May 15, 2007 at 2:57 am

$100,000? Is that all? The richest religion in the world can only donate a quarter of the cost of flying its head of state over to Brazil and putting him up in the best circumstances?

Well, I don't know that, of course, but I suspect it would have cost about $500,000 to get the bloke over there and back what with security, foot washers, food tasters, bullet proof car, minders and etc and etc.

$100,000 - what a stingy, mean-spirited amount. What a token gesture. And he expects to turn around a populace that is happier elsewhere (albeit still delusioned). What a dick. He has no touch with reality.

God will punish the drug peddlers? Drug dealing is as old as humanity. Who does he think he's kidding? He is seriously off the planet.

I recall that on an earlier post, I thought maybe this fellow would possibly be okay if you took away his indoctrination. I apologise everyone and take it all back.

A seriously senile, indoctrinated, pusillanimous twit. God rot him. AAAAAARGH
V

645. BBC man says 'I was wrong to lose it. But these scientologists are truly scary'

Comment #40772 by Veronique on May 14, 2007 at 11:57 pm

John Sweeney, you are not the only one to have 'lost it'. You are the one they filmed. To say that you were egged along preparatory to the filming is probably a reasonable assumption.

Yes, you can say that you are a seasoned reporter. Yes, you can say you shouldn't have lost it. Yes, you can say you should have walked away. But no, you can't say that Scientology is a nice little sect.

They are dangerous and have big names (even though those 'big names' are merely actors who probably couldn't get a proper job if they tried).

South Australia took an unprecedented action when it banned Scientology in that state. I don't know if other places have done the same. It is a dangerous cult. It subverts minds far more effectively and quickly than ye ol' religions.

Not good
V

646. French Muslim women opt for hymen surgical cons

Comment #40768 by Veronique on May 14, 2007 at 11:41 pm

So dear Baron,

What else do you want to know from us old chooks? :-) We were the naughty ones of our era and learnt lots.

Bonzai

I read Desmond Morris in my twenties. He was one of few who wrote back then. Haven't read him for a long time, but he's been overtaken by more thoughful and well researched works. I seem to remember some fairly outrageous conclusions that he postulated. More a pound of salt I think:-)

Regards
V

647. Christopher Hitchens - God is Not Great

Comment #40751 by Veronique on May 14, 2007 at 10:37 pm

bouwe

I have posted on a different thread that The Root of All Evil is being aired on the ABC next Sunday. Oh! and Compass is starting ½ an hour earlier that night. I hope that the ABC's viewership will rise above the normal 8% at least for that night!! And admin has acknowledged you:-)

And no! I didn't realise that some Europeans have no choice but to sequester some of their taxes to a bloody church. That is outrageous. Here the churches are tax exempt and they tithe for their dosh as well as receive donations. Do the churches tithe (as well) in Europe? They must also be tax exempt, yes? They are, after all, receiving tax or already taxed money.

Flagellant and with apologies to WeeWullie

Australia is, at this stage, an Act of the British Parliament. We are still part of the colonial structure of Britain. And it was not a very nice beginning at all. We were all convicts - rejects from the British legal system.

I think the main reason the debate on a Republic for Australia failed in 1998, was because the Republian model proposed gave the Prime Minister massive and outrageous power over and above what he has now. The Convention held over the issue had some wonderful speeches and are well worthwhile a read.

If a different model (one not vesting even more power in the PM) had been proposed, the Republic may well have been acceptable and gone to Referendum.

The majority of Australians see little point in being tied to the apron strings of England and their Queen. We have our own High Court and no longer have to rely on the British Privy Council. That went soon after Gough Whitlam was dismissed as PM in 1975 by our Governor General who is the agent of the Queen. We do, rarely, have our own Constitutional crises.

It will change, but no one in his/her right mind would give a head of state more power.

To the rest of you, Phillip Adams is good value and you can find his interviews on www.abc.net.au/rn which is where this one comes from.

Cheers - gee I'm lucky. I am not sure why but I can edit my posts many, many times to correct errors (I don't get them all, obviously) and add bits before the post is set in stone, as it were.
V

648. Why Christopher Hitchens is not Great

Comment #40729 by Veronique on May 14, 2007 at 8:03 pm

39. Comment #40715 by Canuck

LOL. What a terrific post! I loved it.

I am thoroughly enjoying Hitch. He's got just the right amount of sarcasm, crossness and snippiness for me. And with a few errors (what the hell, they are tiny), just to make him human! His knowledge is prodigious and his asides are great. But we know he's not:-)

Cheers
V

649. How dare you call me a fundamentalist

Comment #40719 by Veronique on May 14, 2007 at 7:18 pm

Oh David,

Another drubbing I see. You just won't learn, will you?

But, hey that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? That's precisely what fundamentalism is all about. An inability to let go of treasured fantasies regardless of evidence or lack thereof (as stackoturtles has pointed out).

You really are extraordinary. You appear to harbour some enormous grudge against RD. There are some other articles of his that are posted here that you can comment on as well: give yourself a good dose of angst.

Off you toddle then. You may be followed by other posters here just to add a soupcon of flavour to your chosen fare.

Cheers
V

650. One side can be wrong

Comment #40709 by Veronique on May 14, 2007 at 6:40 pm

Richard

This article was published September 1, 2005. I couldn't find the comment thread in the Guardian.
Do you recall what reaction there was to it? In fact, do you recall reactions anything like what you are getting now to any one of your previous books?

It's not that you are really saying anything different in TGD from what you have said throughout your other books.

TGD is more like a concentrated collation of what you have been saying for years (with other bits thrown in, of course, and a decided focus on topic).

Having said that, I am pleased with the storm that has been raised by all of you who have and are still writing about the mass delusion we call religion.

Thank you for doing that and don't stop please. BTW, The Root of all Evil will be airing on Compass this coming Sunday in Australia. Compass is the only TV programme on our ABC that approaches anything like a religious programme. It is very secular in its approach to religious issues and well worth watching. Unfortunately our public broadcaster commands only about 8% of our TV viewing population. Never mind. It's airing and that's good!

Cheers
V