601. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47768 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 1:15 pm

>When the Palestinians make a state, in greater Palestine, which it very well might be, or the WB and Gaza, you can be sure it won't be secular. And by then there may be no more Israel to nit-pick about.

Want to bet this will happen in our lifetimes? I'll even give you 100:1 odds.

It is an unfortunate legacy of history that over-exaggerated threats have lead to so much violence in the name of pre-emptive self-defence. For example, many countries of Latin America were perceived as threats to the USA during the 1980s.

At present, in the real world, there is no Palestine, while you're basing your thinking about a parallel universe where there is no Israel. Let's stick to the real world where Israel is armed to the teeth, building settlements in occupied land, while Hamas bicker with each other and fester in their corruption and incompetency.

602. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47762 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 12:59 pm

>The existential threat to Israel is very real.

Is this a 45 minute threat? Better invade now just in case they have WMDs - oh that's right, they already have - 40 years of pre-emption.

H&H seem to be spending more time taking each other out. Israel just has to sit back and watch the game. H&H are corrupt and couldn't organise a "piss up in a brewery" as the Australians would say.

603. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47756 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 12:51 pm

87. Comment #47750 by Steven Mading on June 5, 2007 at 12:34 pm

>It's changed hands between the two more than just in the current century.

Yep, I bet the Canaanites were labelled terrorists when they protested the occupation. And Simon the Zealot was when protesting the Roman occupation. And Irgun was when protesting the British occupation. And so on.

God's a bit of a shit-stirrer giving it to so many peoples. And it looks like a barren wasteland anyway - Switzerland is much more attractive country. His Chosen Few got ripped off.

604. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47753 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 12:45 pm

>We will soon, I believe given the support Hezbollah and Hamas have in the west, see when they do have the power to do the damage they intend.

Well we won't see what happens to Palestinian terrorism if pre-1967 are restored because it'll never happen with all those settlements there.

Did Irgun continue to bomb hotels once Israel was established in 1948?

Yes, H&H are everthing you describe, but they didn't arise out of a vacuum. They're a response to invasions, occupations, imprisonments and other brutalities, both ratchetting up the other side's violence. To understand is to not to forgive. All I'm saying is that condemnation should be in proportion to the violence and suffering inflicted, and not one sided.

Egypt & Turkey made peace with Israel, so it's not inherent to Islam to wipe Israel off the map. As I said before, disentangling legitimate political grievances from superstition is fraught with difficulties.

You have to be careful what Palestinians are protesting against. If it's a "Jewish State of Israel" then I agree. No State should be religious: Christian, Muslim or Jewish. I support secular democracy, hence my condemnation of Saudi Arabia. If Palestinians are protesting against a post-1967 Israel, then this is understable too.

But you're right, Hamas and Hezbollah won't get any sympathy from me if they outrightly refuse even a secular pre-1967 Israel.

605. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47747 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 12:13 pm

>Hezbollah and Hamas would do much worse (and will) if and when they can. Please comment: do you think they wouldn't?

Sure, I agree with you. They probably would do much worse. But that's hypothetical. It still doesn't justify the oppression now in the real world with Israel on top.

Pre-1948, it was the Zionists running around blowing up the King David Hotel and letter bombs to the British. People usually behave unpredictably when disenfranchised.

>Which tells you something about the international community

Are you saying the international community is isolated in its stance on Israel?

>Hamas can't aim and has lousy weapons

So you admit that the justification of self-defence against this relatively impotent enemy is overstated? It's a pity that Israelis can't aim that well either - otherwise why would over 1,000 Lebanese civilians have died in just a few weeks?

606. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47743 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 12:02 pm

I don't buy this thing about intentions.

You can't claim immunity from the law by saying "I was aiming at the baddies" when firing high-explosive rockets into civilian areas.

Lots of BIG BOMBS aimed with "good intentions" still inflict more suffering than some small bombs with "evil intentions".

>and because no one buys it

There's a reason no one buys it. For Lebanon last year, it was 1,123 civilians killed by Israel verus 43 civilians killed by Hezbollah, a ratio of 26:1.

You're going to have to do some pretty fancy mental gymnastics to get it to work out to "Israeli civilian deaths are higher". Falwell would be proud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

607. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47738 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 11:47 am

>Most, yeah. Israel wants peace, and made a stunning offer in 200.

Stunning offer? Did you actually see a map of what the proposals were? Jerusalem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit#Reasons_for_impasse

608. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47736 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 11:37 am

>When a terrorist organization from *Lebanon* kidnaps Israeli soldiers as a pay-back for *Gaza* it becomes, how should I put it...insane?

As I recall from last year, Hezbollah asked for a prisoner exchange before a missile was fired from either side, and Israel rejected it and fired first.

I'm not apologising for Hezbollah - they're a much of dangerous nutcases and so is Hamas, but blame should be proportional to the unecessary and preventable violence inflicted. Disentangling legitimate political grievances from bronze age barbarism is fraught with danger, and not helped by a western media that often frames the issues from only one side.

I think everyone here agrees both sides are to blame - it's just how it's parcelled out 90%/10% 75/25 50/50 25/75 or 10/90 or anywhere in between.

Personally I think the facts (including body counts), order of events, and current balance of power, support a greater share of the blame be attributed to Israel. Others may slice the cake differently. Fair enough.

But even one-eyed Israel supporters must despair that the policies carried out over the last 40 years aren't working.

609. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47733 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 11:28 am

>I'm not being sarcastic, but can you say why Israel should be ashamed for using American-supplied weapons?

I didn't say they should be ashamed, only hyprocritical when pointing the finger to Iran for supplying Hezbollah.

> To me, it's what they do with the weapons (which is usually reasonable

Reasonable?! Almost the entire international community was outraged at the excess in southern Lebanon last year. Try walking around there amid the thousands of unexploded cluster bombs quickly dropped in the last 72 hours before the ceasefire came into effect. Many innocent Lebanese have died since, through no fault of their own. This doesn't count as terror, of course.

Howtoplayalone, how can you argue that Israeli's actions are never as bad as the enemy's, when the death and wounded tolls run overwhelmingly in Israel's favour. In Comment #51 above I cited references to the statistics of deaths since 2000 for both sides. Take a look.

610. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47730 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 11:22 am

When the shoe was on the other foot...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

611. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47728 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 11:17 am

>premeditated state authorized racial based murder of innocent civilians trumps an overzealous self defence in every circumstance that I can think of.

Even when the ACTUAL death toll runs between 4:1 and 20:1 in "favour" of Israel in every conflict, with the inevitable radicalising of the clerics, propaganda mileage for the Muslims and recruitment drive for the extremists? This has been going on for decades. Ignorance of the effects of your actions is no longer an excuse. There's a cycle of violence here, in which Israel is stooping just as lowly as the crazy and corrupt Palestinians.

And is it just self-defence? The occupation of the west bank? The hundreds of check points? The demolition of thousands of homes? The indefinite imprisonment of over 10,000? The nuclear arms in violation of international treaties? The giant wall in occupied land? The denying of equal rights for Arab citizens of Israel? The building of settlements? The thousands of cluster bombs in southern Lebanon right before the armistice? The rejection of numerous peace offers. The long occupation of southern Lebanon? The kidnappings? Is this all self defence?

612. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47723 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 11:04 am

63. Comment #47720 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 10:57 am

>You don't see such videos coming from Israeli schools.

Here in the UK, we see BBC documentaries interviewing settlers claiming the land is theirs because God decreed it 3000 years ago or whatever.

No, the Israelis don't come across as foaming-at-the-mouth extremists, but then again, they've got a powerful army to carry out their Abrahamic-inspired views. Unfortunately the outcome in blood and suffering is similiar, whether the divine inspiration is the Old Testament or the Koran.

613. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47721 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 10:59 am

54. Comment #47708 by Lucy Wiggin on June 5, 2007 at 10:33 am

"So count the explosives and weapons that are caught, not those who escape the Israeli army."

Do you mean we should compare the weapons shipped to Hamas & Hezbollah compared with the weapons shipped to Israel (and manufactured and exported by Israel)?

I think you should quit while you're ahead. You'd never win that argument. USA - Israel defense contracts are worth billions. What H&H get are firecrackers in comparison, however you want to divide it up: dollar worth, potency, quantity, and casualities inflicted.

614. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47714 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 10:49 am

>was the USA on the wrong side of the moral ledger in WWII because less USA citizens were killed by the enemy then enemy troops/civilians killed by the USA?

There's plenty of vigorous debate about the legitimacy of the firebombing of Japanese cities, let alone the atomic bombs. The deathtoll was in the hunderds of thousands. Robert McNamara, hardly a bleeding heart lefty, admitted that had Japan won the war, the US military could have been tried for war crimes.

For those arguing for equivalence, Pearl Harbour was a military base not even on United States soil.

615. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47713 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 10:42 am

>>."It was reported that soldiers were kidnapped in response to Israel kidnapping civilians"

>I honestly never heard of that. Can you link an article? And why would Israel kidnap civilians? Trust me, we have enough of our own.


http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060630_kidnapped_by_israel.php

How far back to you draw the line where the tit for tat begins. 2006? 1967? 1948? 1917? 67AD?

616. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47704 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 10:29 am

You can plead all you like about "self-defense" but the actual numbers speak for themselves....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6215769.stm

http://www.palestinercs.org/crisistables/table_of_figures.htm

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims%20of%20Palestinian%20Violence%20and%20Terrorism%20sinc

617. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47686 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 9:31 am

>What should a country do when missiles are shot at its citizens?

It was reported that soldiers were kidnapped in response to Israel kidnapping civilians, and that the first missiles were fired by Israel, with a deathtoll of more than 10X that of Hezbolla's puny firecrackers sent in return.

And why did Hezbolla form in the first place? To resist the long brutal Israel occupation of southern Lebanon. And so it goes, tit for tat. Iran-funded terror. US funded terror. Martian observers would be shaking their heads "gee, these humans are stupid".

>kill poor defenseless Arabs

Did I say that? No, Hezbolla put up quite an unexpected fight. How dare they fight back when we bomb them, huh?

>Fun

No, not fun. Just short-sighted, tit-for-tat violence, an inability to empathasise, and the building of illegal settlements in violation of international law with the unconditional diplomatic and military blank cheque of the USA, and rejecting numerous offers for peace throughout the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s.

Blame is undoutably on both sides, the argument is how it's to be divided up.

618. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47678 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 9:00 am

I've noticed an either/or dichotomy here. Either the west is entirely to blame, or it's all the Muslims' fault.

Why can't blame be assigned proportionate to the violence inflicted?

Look at the where the violence is concentrated in the Middle East - Palestine and Iraq. Notice any similarities between the two?

Poor neighborhoods in western city slums have higher crime rates - is this entirely the fault of inegalitarian domestic policies (extreme left position) or entirely the fault of the poor (extreme right position)? Obviously humans are not good at thinking along a continuum. Language forces us to think in dichotomous terms. This issue also illuminates the problem of free will when disentangling nature from nuture.

619. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47669 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 8:45 am

>Try taking a bus in Jerusalem

Try walking around in Southern Lebanon while rebuilding your bombed house where the region is full of thousands of Israeli-dropped cluster bombs deployed just befoe the ceasefire came into effect, all with "made in the USA" on them.

Living with the constant threat of annihilation should make humans empathise with the out-group that also have to live with that same threat, but the short-term thinking seems to be to ratchet up the violence, which predictably leads to retaliation... tit for tat, on it goes, decade after decade. This week is the 40 year anniversary of the occupation, and what have Muslims and Jews learnt?

Who would you rather take your chances against? The crazed suicide bomber with a vest of explosives, or the jets, bombers, tanks and artillery of one of the deadliest military forces in the world? If you're unsure, just look at the respective bodycounts over the last 40 years.

620. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47652 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 6:47 am

33. Comment #47634 by JesusH on Ju

>The vast majority of casualties in the muslim world are caused by OTHER muslims, not the west.

That doesn't refute what I said. I said westerners kill more Muslims than Muslims kill westerners.

>Each time a car bomb goes off in Iraq George Bush and Tony Blair get the blame.

How many daily car bombs went off in the months before the Iraq invasion? Bush & Blair did remove a regime under which the present carnage was not taking place. While Iraq was crawling with weapons inspectors in late 2002, Saddam wasn't harming him own population, nor were they blowing each other up. Saddam committed his worst atrocities with the support of the west during the 1980s and they were the crimes he was charged and sentenced for.

Obviously all imperial powers should get a large share of the blame if they insist on meddling in other country's affairs, decade aftter decade.

All invading powers, whether it's the Soviets in Afghanistan or French in Algeria, bear responsibility for all the calamity that follows as a direct consequence of their actions.

In fact, if you really dislike Muslim extremism, you should be supporting the immediate withdrawal of all Coalition troops and the return of the West Bank, as these two issues are radicalising the Muslim population. The western actions are counter-productive. Furthermore, Bush bares the blame for supporting Muslim extremism in the form of the Saudi regime.

621. Should Science Speak to Faith? A dialog between Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins

Comment #47612 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 4:22 am

In the end, it's about effectiveness, which is a question that can be answered by empirical means. Which method achieves the highest conversion rate? Surely a scientific study could shed some light on this.

In any case, we know that the most secular countries (in Scandinavia) didn't get that way following Dawkins' or Krauss' approach, but by their own free choice after achieving high levels of economic security, education, equality, longevity, etc.

622. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47606 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 4:01 am

>You could also ask on which side is the intended body count highest: Hamas is trying to kill as many Israelis, including children, as possible. Israel is trying not to.

Actions speak louder than words, or to rephrase, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

To a Martian observer, the body count would be an important and objective, quantifiable measure in helping to decide which groups are inflicting the most carnage. Westerners inflict orders of magnitude more casualities on Middle Easterners than the other way around. They have much more grounds to fear us, than we them. Invasions, occupations, settlements in stolen lands, dozens of military bases, torture, economic sanctions, bombings, exploitation, propping up despotic regimes such as Saudi Arabia and rogue nuclear states like Israel, etc.

Also, it's odd that suicide bombers cause so much disproportionate concern, when there are massive stockpiles of weapons that have much greater potency all over the world and cause a lot more damage and suffering e.g. landmines, cluster bombs, etc. Is it because the suicide bomber isn't responsive to law & order as other criminals are? The normal deterrents don't work. Also, westerners are the targets (among others) whereas with cluster bombs, it's non-westerners that bear the brunt of it.

Yes, these extremists are bad, but if we're really concerned about suffering in the world, our attention should be directed at those groups that notch up the massive body counts over the decades, especially if those groups reside in our own countries.

623. Beggars belief: Robin McKie on The God Delusion

Comment #47167 by Rtambree on June 3, 2007 at 9:29 am

31. Comment #47155 by Jonathan Dore

Yes, and you can subscribe to their weekly newsletter here...

http://www.secularism.org.uk/newsline.html

624. Beggars belief: Robin McKie on The God Delusion

Comment #47079 by Rtambree on June 3, 2007 at 1:15 am

I think Dawkins has raised some interesting questions, and there are certainly theoretical tensions to be resolved, but what I would like to say in response is to partly emphasise the significance of the trancendent experience and to partly clarify the explanatory power of the spiritual approach to the universe that has demonstrated its ability to transform lives, as Augustine said, due to its ability to reformulate the dialogue between faith and reason.

Is that clear?

- Alister ;)

625. Photos of The God Delusion Event in Second Life

Comment #46750 by Rtambree on June 1, 2007 at 11:44 am

I haven't experienced it either, so I can't second the motion. I'm over 20 years old, so I guess I'm too old for this sort of thing.

Who's got the seconds for second life? I need a 2nd person so I can play 2nd life.

626. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #46743 by Rtambree on June 1, 2007 at 10:59 am

In Orwell's 1984, Winston's personalised torture was to have his head in a cage of rats. Mine would be to share a cell with McGrath who speaks 24/7.

627. What I Think About Evolution

Comment #46741 by Rtambree on June 1, 2007 at 10:41 am

>110. Comment #46706 by epeeist

>A friend of mine refers to them as the "Suet crust", i.e. rich and slightly thick.

Yes, I know what you mean - I live in the UK too. But this is generally a factor of inheritance, which is the biggest obstacle to a meritocracy, whether it's title, class, or wealth.

But the U.S. political system seems to be stuck in a loop-back cycle of stupidity. The politicians are too scared to display intelligence as it might compromise their vote, and the masses are kept stupid by having their authority figures display perpetual stupidity (genuine or fake).

How do you break the cycle?

628. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #46732 by Rtambree on June 1, 2007 at 10:04 am

48. Comment #46729 by Logicel

>it requires a bit of vigilance to keep in focus that their so-called superbly glib logic and reasoning is based on a premise that has no support in reality.

Yes, even a cursory knowledge of intellectual history and human cognition reveals that people are capable of rationalising just about any proposition. That's not to say that logic is useless, only that our ape brains are not capable of employing logic in a vacuum to derive any useful information. It must always be alloyed with evidence as a reference point. Armchair rationalism, no matter how good the intention, can quickly lead to inane speculation. And each step (e.g. if A therefore B, therefore C...) leads one further from the truth. Or in other words, if you guess, chances are you'll be wrong.

Alister McGrath is a perfect example of what Michael Shermer was refering to in "Why people believe weird things" where he had a chapter "Why smart people believe weird things".

629. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #46727 by Rtambree on June 1, 2007 at 9:45 am

A fascinating question is... does McGrath actually believe the drivel that emanates from his melodious larynx?

Is it self-delusion or is it conscious fraud? Does he go to bed each night thinking "I've got away with it again"?

Perhaps it's the case of a career that develops an inertia of its own where each step down the road to dishonesty is imperceptible from the last step, but nevertheless progresses to the irreversibly compromised intellect that we all puzzle over today.

630. What I Think About Evolution

Comment #46703 by Rtambree on June 1, 2007 at 7:58 am

3. Comment #46509 by CJ22 on May 31, 2007 at 2:15 pm

>Doesn't want to alienate his core voters

In a meritocracy, the cream is supposed to rise to the top. American society seems to filter out the intelligent and ensure only the half-witted lunatics are eligible to stand for office.

631. Why Do Some People Resist Science?

Comment #46675 by Rtambree on June 1, 2007 at 4:03 am

34. Comment #46445 by bouwe on May 31, 2007 at 8:51 am

>If this is right, then resistance to science cannot be simply addressed through more education; something different is needed.
Yeah....and what exactly is it

Well, it's clear from the paper - it's a generational change. Children should not be abused with nonsense early on (then again we all grow out of Santas Claus and the Easter Bunny with no psychological calamities).

The enormous difference in religiosity between countries suggests the explanation is cultural and not human nature.

Americans make the mistake of judging all of humanity on the basis on American society, when in fact, the United States is the *exception* to the rule: all other western countries see a decline in religiosity with increasing living standards.

632. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #46658 by Rtambree on June 1, 2007 at 3:18 am

McGrath has no clothes. He is an intellectual imposter.

If more people could see past the Oxbridge accent, suit, polite mannerism, and status, they should say to him "You're talking bollocks and the asylum is that way".

Whoever is paying his salary should charge him for fraud and demand a refund.

How do his students summarise his lecture notes? How do you summarise.... "yes, what is significant is that there's a tension to be resolved and a dialogue to be explored..."

McGrath is not even wrong. He's unintelligible. Two different languages were being spoken in that interview.

If there was an annual award for nonsensical academic gobbledegook (like the Razzies), it should be called the AMAFTS - Alister McGrath Award For Talking Shit.

Richard, you'll never get that hour back that you wasted with that idiot. Speakers Corner would have been more fun.

633. A Look at Regent University

Comment #46435 by Rtambree on May 31, 2007 at 7:46 am

37. Comment #46309 by Goodwithwood on May 30, 2007 at 10:04 pm

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes"

Obi-wan Kenobi

I'm willing to bet that was one of Tom Stoppard's contributions in his rewrite of the Sith script. It sounds too sophisticated for Lucas.

634. I Believe In Evolution, Except For The Whole Triassic Period

Comment #46432 by Rtambree on May 31, 2007 at 7:43 am

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/44260

635. Groundbreaking Research Has Scientists Talking With Apes

Comment #46431 by Rtambree on May 31, 2007 at 7:41 am

I bet Kanzi doesn't believe the world is 6,000 years old or that if he prays to the great Bonobo in the sky, he'll get all the bananas he could ever eat.

636. Hitchens and Prager Debate

Comment #46075 by Rtambree on May 30, 2007 at 6:29 am

RE: Potential muggers

If you narrow it down to Christians in a modern western city, than yes, it would be a relief, but only because Christianity has been (1) through a reformation, and (2) Christians tend to ignore large sections of their Bibles.

In any case, it's the Christian leaders Bush, Blair and Howard that are responsible for many thousands of deaths in Iraq - so how safe does that make the Iraqis feel knowing these leaders go to Bible study?


Prager was talking about idiocracy in secular universities - but he only mentioned sociology classes which would be the lease scientific of all the "-ologies". The further you go up the hierachy from cultural studies to anthropology to biology to chemistry to physics, the more secure you are.

Prager seemed to only read Hitchens subtitle and all his points were directed to that bit of marketing hype.

637. Dawkins at the Hay Festival

Comment #46004 by Rtambree on May 30, 2007 at 2:13 am

>10. Comment #45997 by NMcC on May 30, 2007 at 1:48 am

RE: Iraqi death toll

Yes, I know, good point. I deliberately underestimated so no right-winger could say "those Lancet figures have been disputed and the UN says 'x' and the 'Iraqi ministry says 'y' and Iraq Body Count says 'z'.

Who really knows what it is, as the estimates vary so widely. It wouldn't surprise me if it was in seven figures. In any case, it's comparable to the deaths caused by the 1990s economic sanctions under Clinton.

How Bush & Blair can live with themselves is perplexing. Even if it was an "honest mistake" (best case scenario for them), one would think it would have some psychological implications. I mean, if a ship's captain or airline pilot made a mistake that killed his passengers, there's often severe depression at best or suicide at worst, so extreme is the guilt, but Bush and Blair (and Howard) just keep on smiling like some demented psychopaths.

638. Dawkins at the Hay Festival

Comment #45991 by Rtambree on May 30, 2007 at 1:27 am

7. Comment #45987 by Enlightenme.. on May 30, 2007

>I also think that the rise of profession of belief in good 'ol U.S.A is a sort of not facing up to guilt effect

Yes, I've noticed that American politicians seem to insert the words "I believe" into every second sentence, as if it's a 'get out of jail' card and no further justification is needed. It ends dialogue.

Dennett is right about belief in belief - if you prefix your sentences with "I believe", then you can get away with anything.

Even Tony Blair used it in his resignation speech - tens of thousands of deaths are OK because "I believed" I was doing the right thing. So did every other mass murdering dictator.

I could paraphrase Yoda... "know, or know not, there is no believe".

The scientific method is about tentative hypothesising and seeking out falsification, whereas in politics, the leader is supposed to have "a vision" that he sincerely "believes" in.

Imagine a politician that said "we will attempt to implement this proposal, but if counter-evidence suggests it is not working, we'll try another proposal".

He'd be lampooned as a flip-flop.

Why do we prefer our politicians to steadfastly pursue goals that may be false, rather than adopt a tentative scientific method to policy?

We insist our politicians be "strong" rather than have someone who is willing to change their minds.

639. The Dawkins delusion

Comment #45859 by Rtambree on May 29, 2007 at 12:18 pm

We know that people who live in countries with high standard of livings and security believe less (even in the wishy-washing middle ground stuff) than people who live in countries with low standard of livings and security.

640. Christopher Hitchens at Politics and Prose

Comment #45853 by Rtambree on May 29, 2007 at 11:52 am

He needs to get some new jokes. Regulars here could give the speech for him.

641. Debate between Richard Dawkins and Robert Winston

Comment #45609 by Rtambree on May 28, 2007 at 1:10 pm

14. Comment #45607 by alovrin

Yes, there seem to be a number of standard defences religious-apologists employ...

1. God means different things to different people, and because science is not certain, therefore religion can't be criticised.

2. The God you're attacking isn't the one I believe in.

3. People need religion.

4. Religion does good things.

5. The world would still have bad things in it, even if we could get rid of religion.

6. You can't disprove God.

7. This all had to come from somewhere.

8. The style of your tone is too aggressive*

* Although it is a legitimate debate among atheists as to what style (good cop or bad cop) is the most effective in "deprogramming" theists.

642. Debate between Richard Dawkins and Robert Winston

Comment #45604 by Rtambree on May 28, 2007 at 12:54 pm

What about a Reality Television program where you lock up Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins, Dennett and Jonathan Miller in a house with Robert Winston, Alister McGrath, Francis Collins, Denys Turner and the Bishop of Oxford, and viewers have to vote one off each week?

It would rate!

(There'd be no booze, so perhaps Hitchens wouldn't last)

643. Debate between Richard Dawkins and Robert Winston

Comment #45601 by Rtambree on May 28, 2007 at 12:36 pm

Once again, Winston squirmed out of that one and refused to declare precisely what he believes.

It's all very well to say "different people believe different things" or "religion has done good" or "the use of the word 'delusion' is insulting" but he won't actually state his own beliefs and arguments for them.

Winston is wrong about atheism damaging science - quite the opposite.

Winston must employ a gigantic leap of faith to jump from the mystery of the universe's orgin all the way to a specific set of Abrahamic beliefs.

Instead of arguing... if A, then B, then C, then D, Winston goes from... if A, then Z and skips all the intermediate steps.

It's strangely disconcerting for such a prominent and eminent scientist to hold such publically wishy-washy beliefs.

Every time Dawkins has come into a debate with Winston on this topic (e.g. The Story of God), it's over before it begins.

Dawkins and Winston need to stage a 15-Round Title Fight. I tip Dawkins with a K.O. by Round 9.

644. It came like yesterday

Comment #45347 by Rtambree on May 27, 2007 at 9:18 am

Hmmm... when humans got to most previously uninhabited places, mass extinctions of large fauna followed, not just in North America, but in Australia, New Zealand and Pacific Islands.

These events didn't all coincide with extraterrestrial impacts - the Aborigines got to Australia 40,000+ years ago and the Maoris got to New Zealand only about 1,000 years ago.

So the original conclusion about the Clovis people seems reasonable. Human are humans are humans - no one group is innately enlightened or regressive in terms of environmental foresight compared to another group.

645. Al Gore on Reason

Comment #45341 by Rtambree on May 27, 2007 at 8:25 am

124. Comment #45322 by pewkatchoo

>it is free market capitalism that has paid for most of the modern advances that you take for granted

This is as deluded as saying God created us all in 6 days, 6000 years ago.

646. Observer Diary 27th May 2007

Comment #45334 by Rtambree on May 27, 2007 at 7:52 am

Clearly, RD doesn't enjoy the transit aspect of travelling (who does?), so the prospect of a 60 hour(!!) return trip from Oxford to speak to some uncouth convicts at Gleebooks in Sydney would be discouraging.

Don't forget, Ken Ham and his fellow nutjobs come from Australia. Dawkins also got set up by an Australian crew with the infamous 11-second long PAUSE.

No wonder he hasn't been there since last century.

Some rich Australian millionaire would have to fly him in via private jet? Any takers? James Packer on his Scientology plane? Dick Smith on his hot air balloon?

647. Aiming for knockout blow in god wars

Comment #45247 by Rtambree on May 27, 2007 at 1:07 am

Bob Brown, leader of the Greens, is at least agnostic, if not, atheist, so it's not just a choice between Liberal (Christian PM & Christian Deputy) and Labor (Christian leader)

648. Teachers rebel over atheism promotion

Comment #45096 by Rtambree on May 26, 2007 at 11:17 am

All school curricula should contain a course that covers:

1. Critical thinking
2. Awareness of logical fallacies
3. A contrast of empiricism to rationality
4. Various methods of knowing something
5. History of religion & comparative religion
6. The neurology and evolutionary psychology of beliefs

649. Al Gore on Reason

Comment #44917 by Rtambree on May 25, 2007 at 3:07 pm

Gore was in power for 8 years (92 - 99)

What did his administration do? Bomb other countries, sell arms to other countries, do nothing on global warming, and impose harsh sanctions on the Iraq people killing hundreds of thousands of people, perhaps more innocent victims than Bush's invasion.

650. Another Christian Science Fair embarrasses itself

Comment #44827 by Rtambree on May 25, 2007 at 10:59 am

3. Comment #44699 by Philip1978 on May 25, 2007 at 7:36 am

>If he had done it properly he could have prayed with the right amount of "faith" and got his god to create it for him!

But then it would no longer be "faith". There's a Catch-22 Parodox here. If God answers prayer, you have evidence and don't need "faith". :)