Comments by Quine

Comment #166605 by Quine on April 23, 2008 at 10:38 am

14. The Romans and Jews did not and could not produce Jesus' body which if they could have, would have ended the Disciples claims of the resurrected Christ and destroyed their evangelistic efforts.

Except that such "claims" did not happen until decades after the fact, and at first, only in churches established by Saul/Paul far, far away (Body? What body?).

702. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #166566 by Quine on April 23, 2008 at 9:59 am

Comment #166357 by epeeist:

That naughty Quine gave a creotard the Sorites paradox in another thread (it actually went "whoosh", straight over his head but that is another matter).

I was not trying to be naughty, I just got fed up with those who first claim that "no one has seen evolution happen" and then when you ask them if they want to die of bird flu they tell you that is only "micro-evolution." It is rare that you can just pull out a dialectic from the old world and drop it on a current topic, but for the micro/macro evolution canard, Sorites will cut the bullshit without having to educate them about ring species, etc. I was going to try to get him to learn something by talking himself into a jam but, certain persons, jumped in and blew the punch line.

703. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #166135 by Quine on April 22, 2008 at 7:29 pm

Hi Brian,

On the subject of a logic text: the math/philosophy divide can make a difference in how it comes across to you. As it happened, I ended up taking the beginning logic classes from both the math and philosophy departments at my college and got double credits for learning the same thing. However, the departments did not talk to each other, there, and it was not presented the same way.

True to my moniker, I am going to recommend Methods of Logic by W.V. Quine. (It won't give you KM-calculus, but you can get started in an understandable model.) A used copy is cheap, and you can take a look at an excerpt at that Amazon link. Unfortunately, I did not have W.V. Quine as a direct teacher, whereas Dan Dennett did.

On the subject of a proof of a (or more) supernatural being(s), if such were found it would reduce the length of the "leap of faith" to zero, thus devaluing faith itself to zero. I doubt the "faithful" would be too happy about that.

704. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165902 by Quine on April 22, 2008 at 2:44 pm

chewmanfoo, is it your position that a deity set the Universe into its evolving action, and then sat back (with arms folded, per Hitchens) until self aware beings (like us) "popped up" and only then started the voices-in-heads? If so, when in this process did something that survives death start to happen, and how?

705. Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed

Comment #165880 by Quine on April 22, 2008 at 1:55 pm

Sexpelled mentioned by this Wall Street Journal piece.

706. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165859 by Quine on April 22, 2008 at 1:22 pm

PZ just posted links to this very nice inside cheat-sheet to Expelled by Troy Britain: part1 and part2

707. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #165851 by Quine on April 22, 2008 at 1:11 pm

Note: Dan Dennett will be debating Lord Winston tonight about Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Dennett on religion:

... People are revered for their capacity to live in a dream world, to shield their minds from factual knowledge and make the major decisions of their lives by consulting voices in their heads that they call forth by rituals designed to intoxicate them.

708. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #165833 by Quine on April 22, 2008 at 12:46 pm

I have stopped making comments about this pointless Kardashovel subject; that includes this one.

709. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165821 by Quine on April 22, 2008 at 12:18 pm

chewmanfoo, I find it emotionally satisfying to work on the problem of what makes something emotionally satisfying.

710. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165786 by Quine on April 22, 2008 at 10:22 am

It looks like the main stream media have beat most of the crap out of Expelled in the reviews and op ed pieces, leaving the remaining (such as this little piece of crap) to be proffered up by the church groups and right wing nuts (and, of course, a certain institute of wack jobs who will go unmentioned).

711. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165619 by Quine on April 21, 2008 at 10:46 pm

I was surprised to find that there is an Intelligent Design Undergraduate Research Center at Baylor University according to this piece from the campus press. Of course, there should be the freedom for them to do so, but I am concerned that the falsehoods spread by Stein's movie will be used to attract students under false expectations (i.e. that what they would be studying is actually science).

712. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165593 by Quine on April 21, 2008 at 6:39 pm

Thanks, 82_28, a powerful scene indeed.

713. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165582 by Quine on April 21, 2008 at 6:05 pm

Comment #165558 by ficklefiend:

Quine posted a couple of links on the comments, and I scrolled through ... This has put me in a pessimistic mood. I hope this letter gets a response because it seems there's a long way to go still.

I am sorry, ficklefiend, for the disturbance this has caused. I am just doing this to encourage the community to write "letters of enlightenment" to these folks, and as early warning on the kinds of falsehoods that we are going to have to wade through.

Note: I am not putting up links the to the truly vile pieces that have been going up at the Discovery Institute about every 2 hours. They are fanning the flames on this and milking Expelled for every new grifting mark they can get.

714. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165525 by Quine on April 21, 2008 at 2:55 pm

So why do you believe in evolution?

I don't have to believe in evolution, I can check it.

715. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165520 by Quine on April 21, 2008 at 2:52 pm

Another particularly ignorant piece of crap mentions Prof. Dawkins by name.

Edit: same old crap from D'Souza.

716. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165477 by Quine on April 21, 2008 at 1:57 pm

Comment #165464 by al-rawandi:

Quine,

You can't use the Sorites Paradox on a creationist. That isn't fair.

Al, it was just a set up for a ref to this very nice piece by PZ explaining the change in chromosome number by so called micro-evolution.

717. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165457 by Quine on April 21, 2008 at 1:40 pm

TheTrughID, first answer this question: if I start with a small pile of sand and add grains of sand, at which grain does the pile become a sand dune?

718. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165411 by Quine on April 21, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Excellent comment, Steve. I almost asked the nut over on the Lying for Jesus thread if he and his gun club friends were getting ready to defend the country by shooting all the birds.

719. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #165397 by Quine on April 21, 2008 at 12:41 pm

navyjack95, thank you for establishing the validity here on the Lying for Jesus thread. You have helped us all appreciate the importance of actually thinking.

720. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #165366 by Quine on April 21, 2008 at 11:49 am

Here, navyjake95, read a press piece with some real intelligence in it.

721. Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed

Comment #165347 by Quine on April 21, 2008 at 11:30 am

The view counter at YouTube just went over 100,000.

722. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165343 by Quine on April 21, 2008 at 11:26 am

The 'Right to Life' folks link into Expelled with this piece:

The monotone teacher from "Ferris Bueller's Day Off" may just have something new to teach us all -- especially when it comes to the root causes of the culture of death.

723. Beware the Believers

Comment #165339 by Quine on April 21, 2008 at 11:12 am

Made by Michael Edmondson
See story at Pharyngula

724. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #164937 by Quine on April 20, 2008 at 9:29 pm

Comment #164913 by Layla Nasreddin

Damn, Quine, how can you continue reading that crap?

It does hurt my feelings and make me sad about humanity to do so, but we need to keep track of this and to write letters to counter falsehoods. Societies who did not do so went down some dark paths. Here is another example of how the movie is being received in the religious community. It's frightening. Also, I am seeing pieces that indicate that because of the movie Christian colleges are going to start ID course work to attract new students from the religious community, and provide jobs for 'expelled' teachers.

725. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #164888 by Quine on April 20, 2008 at 7:52 pm

More crap.

726. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #164818 by Quine on April 20, 2008 at 6:10 pm

Film reviewer maligned for exposing Expelled.

727. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #164798 by Quine on April 20, 2008 at 5:38 pm

Hmmmm, also see The Origins of Virtue by Matt Ridley.

728. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #164775 by Quine on April 20, 2008 at 5:11 pm

And it is being used by others as a touchstone, as in this piece of crap and this other piece of crap.

Edit: The latter piece of crap actually goes after Prof. Dawkins by name, based on the movie, while admitting not having seen the movie.

729. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #164740 by Quine on April 20, 2008 at 4:33 pm

Due to the poor condition of our science education system, the opportunity existed for Ben Stein and his associates to use intellectual vandalism to make a quick buck, and thus they have done so. It always costs society to repair the damage from vandalism, and I see the letter from J. as an example of someone from a family twice wronged.

730. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #164688 by Quine on April 20, 2008 at 2:12 pm

... but I have no real recollection.

And, thus, you are blessed; don't blow it.

731. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #164681 by Quine on April 20, 2008 at 2:04 pm

... (sorry Quine and Frankus, but you were ahead of the game, and I needed some time to get out other thoughts)

Don't worry about it, I have plenty more for when you come back. However, I will save you the time on the simulation issue; so long as there is no way to get at the simulation from inside the simulation (i.e. while stuck playing by the rules), it is a difference that doesn't make a difference.

732. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #164560 by Quine on April 20, 2008 at 12:12 pm

Kardashovel, could you please explain why you think your future deity would be, necessarily, a decedent of ours, versus any other evolved life form from anywhere else in the Universe (a very big place). Also, do you expect it to also go back in time and resurrect you into some kind of paradise, and if so, why would it bother to do so?

733. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #164219 by Quine on April 19, 2008 at 6:06 pm

Part of the psychology of the religious mind is the idea that the words of their scriptures have supernatural powers. This leads to the expectation that volumes of such, cut and pasted into blogs, will magically change people's minds. That this does not have the expected result is simply disregarded in line with the human tendency for minimization of cognitive dissonance by filtering for only the "evidence" desired.

734. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #164174 by Quine on April 19, 2008 at 4:59 pm

Comment #164050 by phasmagigas

... that scripture is soon to be hurled.

Easy points.

735. Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed

Comment #164151 by Quine on April 19, 2008 at 4:21 pm

Go, Go, Go. Sexpelled picked up on wired dot com.

736. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #164149 by Quine on April 19, 2008 at 4:10 pm

I find the concepts of falsifiability and testability so detached from the religious mind that it creates a deep weakness. These days, when the religious say something to me such as, "So, you believe in evolution?" I reflexively fire back, "I don't have to believe in evolution; I can check it." So far, this has completely left them standing on the back foot with a dazed expression.

737. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #164088 by Quine on April 19, 2008 at 1:55 pm

Remnant, try to get a grip on the difference between science and non-science. This is the well known Demarcation Problem as notably advanced by Popper and then Kuhn. Education is free on the web and neuroplasticity extends into later life, so do make an effort to improve yourself.

738. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163968 by Quine on April 19, 2008 at 11:35 am

So pacman71192, while you are taking a mental trip into probability, let us look at just one of the probabilistic issues of your existence i.e. paternal cell probability. I am just going to do a very rough order of magnitude calculation; men produce from 10⁸ to 10⁹ sperm cells per day, for at least 30 years or about 10⁴ days. Taking the lower end of sperm production to account for decrease with age, this is 10⁸ X 10⁴ = 10¹² total sperm cells to choose one of to make you.

Of course, your father had to have had a father, so if we look at your paternal cell probability from back a generation we get one in 10¹² X 10¹² = 10²⁴, but if we were going back 100 generations (about 2000 years), that probability drops to one in 10¹²⁰⁰. I note that you listed a probability of one in 10⁴⁹ as past the realm of possibility, therefore your own standard makes you impossible.

I suggest you get a copy of Climbing Mount Improbable and do some reading about the fallacy of retrospective probability.

739. Flea of the week

Comment #163716 by Quine on April 18, 2008 at 9:19 pm

Paula, vent away - as much as you want, whenever you want - we all owe you.

740. The Child Preachers

Comment #163703 by Quine on April 18, 2008 at 8:15 pm

Too sad for words.

741. Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed

Comment #163347 by Quine on April 18, 2008 at 8:20 am

742. Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed

Comment #163081 by Quine on April 18, 2008 at 1:01 am

"And the Stork shall bear a nine-bladed sword. Nine-bladed! Not two or five or seven, but nine, ..."

743. Yoko Ono, Filmmakers Caught in 'Expelled' Flap

Comment #163076 by Quine on April 18, 2008 at 12:49 am

Santi, if the truth about nature leads to Nazi atrocities, then yes, we need to talk about that and see what we can do as a society. However, pretending that the truth is not the truth is no long term solution.

Many of us followed the Dover trial closely in which we saw the unmasking of the duplicitous and mendacious actions of the ID proponents. This has made us sensitive to trickery. The tricks used by the Expelled producers have been right in line with these forebodings. It looks like more "wedge" tactics to win political battles in a culture war where their side simply does not have the truth to fall back upon.

Please excuse any 'rough' treatment you may have received here. If you have not done so, please read one of the books chronicling the Dover trial (or watch the excellent NOVA program). Look into the false front at the Discovery Institute. And in the case of Expelled, listen to the Mathis interview at Scientific American. There is deep deception going on, political agendas, and some second rate (i.e. not willing to get proper IP releases) film makers looking to get a few fast bucks out of the sheeple.

744. Yoko Ono, Filmmakers Caught in 'Expelled' Flap

Comment #162986 by Quine on April 17, 2008 at 6:52 pm

More crap as the Discovery Institute crows over the "gala premiere" of Expelled in Dallas.

745. Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed

Comment #162922 by Quine on April 17, 2008 at 5:05 pm

Yes, Styrer-, you and everyone else. There is a great opportunity in the next 12 to 18 hours before the US release to massively stuff email boxes with the youtube link. Some work is involved, but what a net stunt it would be.

[Edit: If you search for the Expelled reviews in the on-line press you will find many have comment sections where you can post this youtube link, as well as at anything on youtube linked to Expelled.]

746. Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed

Comment #162911 by Quine on April 17, 2008 at 4:48 pm

Styrer-:

Well, my humble little assistance is to e-mail the youtube link to everyone in my contacts file.

Little person power!

Don't forget all those school board members in Florida and Texas.

747. Yoko Ono, Filmmakers Caught in 'Expelled' Flap

Comment #162904 by Quine on April 17, 2008 at 4:36 pm

While I am on the subject of crap, this particularly nasty piece of quote mining just popped up at the Discovery Institute. It includes:

"Almost all the major ingredients of Hitlerism are in Darwin."

748. Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed

Comment #162895 by Quine on April 17, 2008 at 4:20 pm

Thanks, sarah95, for the youtube post. Anyone know how to help this go viral?

749. Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed

Comment #162879 by Quine on April 17, 2008 at 4:02 pm

"But who delivers the stork?" --- YES!!

750. Yoko Ono, Filmmakers Caught in 'Expelled' Flap

Comment #162862 by Quine on April 17, 2008 at 3:35 pm

This Star Tribune piece only gave them half a star on a 4 star scale and ended with:

"After an hour and a half, my faith in Darwin was shaken because, judging by what was on screen, we haven't evolved one blessed bit."