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Comments by Goldy


751. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #173476 by Goldy on April 30, 2008 at 7:50 pm

were the Crusades necessarily a bad thing?

How do those of the more Islamic bent call western forces/cultural institutions in Iraq and Gaza again...?

752. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #173474 by Goldy on April 30, 2008 at 7:48 pm

As for the teapot argument, that is just so silly

Not a teapottist then.
Does, however, nicely illustrate how I see gods :-)

753. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #173461 by Goldy on April 30, 2008 at 7:33 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7368020.stm
Here's what pig farmers in a secular, culturally Islamic country (especially now after a little holocaust and ethnic cleansing or two) put up with. Today, in our "enlightened" times.
'm pretty sure this was not teh case in turn of the millenium Palestine...so what the hell were pigs, especially herds of them, doing there?
A parable on ethnic cleansing, maybe? A rage at Hellenisation, a coded message to tell the readers to kick the Romans out? Who knows...

754. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #173455 by Goldy on April 30, 2008 at 7:27 pm

Off topic question, what kind of scientist are you?

Seriously underpaid ;-)
I'm a technician at the university of Auckland, in the dept of Molecular Medicine and Pathology, though I hang around Pharmacology a fair bit. Looking at the metabolism of cyclophosphamide by CYP2C19 and CYP2B6 enzymes (for starters) with respect to lupus nephritis.
Take your point on Jesus - but you can't be sure he's the man you think he is, can you? Not after Paul got a-spin doctoring...
Cultural Christianity...you know, shops shutting on Sunday, Easter and Christmas being officcial holidays which one HAS to take off (and use one's leave to take the days off - can't work even if I want to at the Uni), that sort of thing. Also, in the UK, bishops get to put their fat arses into the House of Lords without any questions asked. Hmmmm!
So, what turned you to the dar....errr, what made you start beleiving in deities as opposed to yourself?

755. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #173398 by Goldy on April 30, 2008 at 6:07 pm

"Applying the scientific method" is not like following a manual.

More like following a recipe. Sometimes you have to deviate to try and get that which you are looking for...
Sometimes, though, it is like following a manual...

756. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #173397 by Goldy on April 30, 2008 at 6:05 pm

I love Jesus, he was a great man, even if he didn't exist, we could still learn from Jesus as a man, mythical man at the very least.

It is not Jesus you love but that which is attributable to him. In many cases you can say you love Paul, you love the direction the church has gone...but as you yourself say, Jesus might not have existed. How can you love him then, when even you are a bit wary of stating his existance outright?
No shame in loving ideas :-) That's what I liked about TGD - Dawkins just put to paper what I thought was right. I have no feelings at all for Richard.

757. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #173394 by Goldy on April 30, 2008 at 6:02 pm

Human dignity is defined in the Cathechism and the Gospels

How do they define human dignity? Not as well as the OED, I assume...
but he has no authority on this matter and it puzzles me as to why so many love his book.

Because it resonates. And what authority does he need to complain about religion? I hate it adn I am a scientist. I have undergone years of cultural Christianity, put up with the bad as well as the good - what right does religion have to do this to me, a non-believer?
WHy do people love the Bible, the Torah, the (insert mythological anthology of choice)?

758. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #173360 by Goldy on April 30, 2008 at 5:00 pm

No, I said I have some INDIRECT frustrations between Evolution and ID.

Hmmm. I'll await what you mean by that. Still sounds to me like the difference between Jews for Jesus and Jesus' Jews...but what do I know, I'm just one of those godless athiests... ;-)

759. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #173320 by Goldy on April 30, 2008 at 3:50 pm

Back to the HPLC for me - don't expect quick replies :-) I shall be back...

760. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #173319 by Goldy on April 30, 2008 at 3:49 pm

This is your opinion, and I am not going to debate religion with anyone

Well, you said yourself you have frustrations between ID and evolution - frustrations of a philosophical nature. You then tell us you're a Jew that believes in Jesus but don't like Jews for Jesus for their political agenda.
All this on a site promoting athiesm. Now, call me old fashioned, but religious exploration is a given here. You also say you have the ability to differentiate what, to me, is an irrational belief in the supernatural being different from another irrational belief in the supernatural yet have frustration in the ability to see between research based theories and mythology based "theories" - why are you here again?
Religion is part and parcel of your frustration. To me, you are religious. I don't distinguish you from any other religious person - you can be a Jew that thinks Jesus is the Messiah and Odin is his brother in law and they both have a grudge against Bussha because his fence cuts through the corner of Maui's garden (Maui is a good buddy of Jesus and Odin) - it matters not to me.
I would like to know how your religious views cause you no frustration.

761. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #173313 by Goldy on April 30, 2008 at 3:36 pm

Golly, Truth, you situation sounds to me almost Pythonesque ;-)
Never mind, you can split your religions, so you shouldn't have any problems getting around science :-) Just like your Jewish thingy, one branch is accepted through facts and one branch has a political agenda. You can guess which is which...
See, easy peasy! You should now have no problems with evoolution and ID :-)

762. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #173300 by Goldy on April 30, 2008 at 3:27 pm

How do we deal with gaps in knowledge?
Initially educated guesses :-) When I was a student, a lot of what I learnt was stated as "It is hypothesised that...". Research goes on to try and answer the question - that's what science is about.
When we assume something, it is an educated assumption based on experience and on other factors - present day DNA can tell a about the past, like the relationships between species and a close approximation as to when they may have had a common ancestor. We see fossils of forms and infer by their morphology what they are and where they fit into the grand scheme of things.
Ultimately, though, gaos in knowledge are questions that need answering. Science does not pull out some mythology to answer it - a truthful scientist says "I don't know" and can then try and explain how something MIGHT (as in maybe - hypothesis) be, but more research is needed to be sure.
That's why sometimes the story changes :-) A concept religion should look into to try and get some credibility back...

763. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #173260 by Goldy on April 30, 2008 at 2:49 pm

Truth, you may have to register there. Clicking on your name tells me you don't exist.
You're not...God, are you? In which case, we athiests have been making a bit of a mistake all our lives ;-D

764. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #173244 by Goldy on April 30, 2008 at 2:35 pm

I just got back from seeing Expelled. My opinion is that Ben Stein has made a very effective movie for his propaganda

It's made not even a ripple here in Aotearoa :-) Not as effective as I think he'd wish it to be.
With all this appeal to emotion it is little wonder that some, such as the gentleman who wrote that letter to Dawkins, have been so completely taken in. Stein plays on the (already widespread) fear of science, seeming to imply that we could be looking another Holacaust in the face if these sinister sceintists have their way. What do you think of all this?

You have to have a reasonably large religious population for this to work. Odd people here and maybe in the UK might go away thinking his movie has a point, but they sure as hell won't tell their friends that in case of ridicule. And given the speed people go to the doctors here when ill, methinks the fear of science is not as strong as you may think. Fear of religion, onthe other hand...well, grow a beard, get a tan and get on a bus with a rucksack and watch the people around you.

Personally I would object to the word "theory" being associated with ID. At best it is a conjecture, it has no body of evidence associated with it, it makes no predictions that can be tested or falsified

I agree, Epeeist, but we're also arguing with people to whom the full meaning of "theory" is a bit nebulous. Evolution is a theory, ergo it is not fact, ergo it is just an idea...sort of thing. Doesn't seem to apply to gravity, mind... ;-) I then apply the word to ID to show that this works both ways - evolution is a theory, ID is a theory. One theory can be tested and is backed up by a wealth of evidence, the other is derived from a series of Middle Eastern myths with European veneers.
I will state again that I personally see ID as more a philosophy and that it can be taught at universities and schools but not in science classes - lump it in the arts subjects.

765. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #172677 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 9:31 pm

I'll keep them is storage awaiting your visit :-) Hey, you could even bring my dashboard... ;-)
After this, I'm going to try a chocolate beer. Have a heap of meads sitting slowly ageing too. Hope the honey I get at teh market is OK - had a scare recently...mind you, converting them to a neurotoxin, so what the hell am I worried about!
OK, catch you tomorrow!
Bis spater!
Tot ziens!

766. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #172673 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 9:27 pm

Surely Darwin=Yahweh and Dawkins=Jesus?

Nah, think Darwin is Jesus and Dawkins maybe a Paul...though I don't think RD is a spin doctor like Paul.

767. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #172671 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 9:22 pm

Jafa
Just another fucking Aucklander :-)
Though I believe NSW still has a claim to NZ...might need to check that...
Home time soon. Want to brew a manuka honey beer...

768. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #172659 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 8:57 pm

Indeed. Always a pisser to the system wen there's people like us who just don't think like we're told!

769. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #172656 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 8:46 pm

I don't understand why people who tell me there is only 1 god brindle at the mention of any other god. I mean, if there is only 1, why the fuss of others, who obviously don't exist (like, I must add, their own god :-))

770. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #172651 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 8:40 pm

Riandouglas, it's OK. I've gone from Pom to latte-sipping Jaffa in the last 6 years :-) I can take all slings and arrows ;-)

Not that I'm getting all 'proud Australian' on you.

Heheheheh! Never thought you'd be getting so one me, Mr English
;-D
Ducks to avoid missile aimed at head...holds out beer in supplication!

771. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #172650 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 8:37 pm

Logic and philosophy of science are absolutely clear on the matter that ID isn't science, no testable predictions, no parsimony, either ending in an infinite regress or in the supernatural as an explanation for natural phenomena (category mistake and contrary to the methodological naturalism of science)

I'm taking baby steps here - many people reading these comments do not even acknowledge the wealth of evidence that underpins the theory of evolution. Indeed, as you read, they see it as another religion almost, with Darwin as some sort of Jesus figure (the only way I can explain the way I hear then mention "Darwinists"...though I'd like to think myself more a Wallaceian... ;-)).

772. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #172648 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 8:32 pm

AFL is an indigenous game. It wasn't imported

The history of Australian rules football is widely acknowledged to have officially began in Melbourne in 1858, with a call by Tom Wills to develop a local code of foot-ball and the formation of the Melbourne Football Club. What is considered to be the first match of Australian rules football was played at the Richmond Paddock on 31 July and the oldest surviving set of laws were drawn up the next year on 17 May 1859.

Though the first officially recorded match was in 1858,the origins of the game can be traced back to 1853.

It is not clear to what extent the early game was influenced by the football played in English public schools, but there are similarities have been observed between some of them and the Australian game. The code also has features in common with the Aboriginal game Marn Grook and Gaelic football.

OK, not completely imported...but not totally indigenous. Of course, I had to go and look up marn grook....work is suffering here!
I have links with Australia too, you know. My dashboard for my Alfa is there, in Melbourne. Postage is a bit high....need to get over sometime to pick it up!

773. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #172644 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 8:26 pm

Can't help on the academic philosophical front, but can help on the general science thing.
TID, if the thing is about why evolution is more accepted than ID, think about buying a second hand car. You go to the lot and there's a used Mercedes and a used Lada, both at roughly the same price. Now, you look a them both and you think that maybe the Lada, being newer is a better buy. But them Mercedes has a good reputation (or had before Chrysler...but that's a red herring) and they go for ever. Ladas keep breaking down and they're russian and everyone knows a German takes pride in his work and a Russian doesn't (don't trouble the argument by saying the German worker might really be Turkish...).
To me, that's evolution/ID. One is tried and tested and has a good reputation (all the research seems to suggest this). The other is...well, an unknown quantity (research strongly suggests any ID theory is wrong).
All depends, though. You trust German engineering more because of their reputation but maybe the simplicity of Russian engineered things appeals (I own a Russian motorcycle :-)). That's how I see the evolution/ID debate...

774. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #172639 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 8:12 pm

Please report to your AFL and cricket reeducation centre immediately

Both imported by northern Europeans :-D
Wuahahahaha!

775. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #172637 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 8:10 pm

but much awareness of how patriotism and nationalism are dangerous and arrogant.

Not, unfortuantely, a lesson learnt by many. I like to point out to my wife that China is like a European country of about a century ago. She hits me, but agrees.
I should stop telling her - getting a bunch of bruises! Anyway, she points out my western failings too :-)

776. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #172634 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 8:07 pm

some supposed unique aussie values

I also like this concept of Aussie/NZ/country of choice colonised by another. I remember the NZ Herald had some cultural NZ icon list. Bugger me is more than half weren't actually British too...

777. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #172629 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 8:02 pm

Brian, not talking to your mother for 2 years? That's hard on a person. Any chance things have thawed in between?
Patriotism, nationalism - silly concepts to me. As is race. What are they but labels. All easily lost (well, maybe not race) - I have UK and NZ nationality, my wife ditched her Chinese nationality to become a NZer (I joke that she's only ethnically Chinese now :-)). None is worth dying for. Indeed, how can anyone be so proud of a concept that actively encourages them to die and seemingly selects the young before the old? Madness.
Then there are other issues. Many patriotic NZers I know, "proper" born and bred here from those born and bred here, have issues with the indigenous population. Some of the aboriginals have issues with those they see as "newcomers" for want of a better term. NZ is, stereotypically, an Anglo-Saxon, white, English speaking, etc, etc, country. Yet these are northern European, not Pacific. Hardly anyone I know can speak more than a few words of the first NZ language. Yet they are patriotic and are a touch dismissive of the land of their culture.
This has all come to a head for me with the recent anti-Chinese pro-Tibetan feeling here. Some of the letters in the paper yesterday condemned young Chinese students for being overtly patriotic (attacking those holding Tibetan symbols didn't help their cause), accusing them of Nazistic displays. In a global society, is there a place for overt nationalism - or even nationalism at all?

778. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #172608 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 7:18 pm

I stated that I had indirect frustrations in regards to the Evolution-ID debate, which are more philosophical in nature.

TID, go to the Lying for Jesus thread - plenty of philosphical arguments going on there!
Have you mentioned what exactly it was about evolution that frustrated so? I should check through all the posts, I know...but I'm lazy :-)

779. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #172529 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 5:04 pm

:-) Roos are bloody annoying untrainable animals! I'll try pukekos instead...
MPhil - definitely the hat picture. You look like Alex from Clockwork Orange (the movie). You need a couple of goons behind you to act as your droogs :-) Other picture will have fundies following you or something - maybe even nailing you to a tree for blasphemy. After all, Jesus never wore sunglasses ;-)

780. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #172493 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 4:00 pm

OK, I'll put up, but will hope that all men present will make this for their wives to please them...

:-) The gods live another day!
I actually really enjoy cooking. Wife has been told how lucky she is. Still complains, though...no pleasing women sometimes ;-)
Thanks for that, I'll enjoy making it!
As for crackpot scientists - I think if you look there are quite a few. Controversial and egotistic too. The more rational among our community (like me) take these wild flights of fancy and try and convert them to workable ideas with the boring legwork of testing and retesting and comparing and retesting. After all, if you didn't have wild flights of fancy, dogma would rule and, well, science would become a religion....wouldn't it?
As it was, the best mathematician I knew at Leicester Uni (all others would come to him to get their assignments corrected) became an alcoholic. It was a very sad decline. Brain worked too fast for him to cope, it seemed.

781. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #172447 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 3:03 pm

Anyway, it's cool that people like Bonzai, MPhil, you, etc post here to lift the level of conversation from Goldy's and my interest in training marsupials....

Brian, I'm hurt you can say this behind my back! They just philosophise, I'm training bloody kangaroos! Or maybe they're training me... ;-)

782. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #172427 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:46 pm

C'mon Corylus, spill it. The recipe...or the god gets it!
;-)

783. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #172422 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:43 pm

Kardy, you still around? Jesus/Paul - why are you a Christian?

784. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #172403 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Heffe

Goldy, you look at some very strange stuff, I have found your links very entertaining.

It was your fault. You made me do it! ;-) Rather entertaining, I have to say!

785. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #172396 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:17 pm

Goldy, you went to bed. Bastard. First you train Roos to walk like humans, now you deceive. How will I go on?

*10 hours later*....I'm baaaack! Errr, Brian? Helloooo?

786. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #171939 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:54 am

Well folks, s'it from me. Off to bed to listen to the World Service, read the History of the World and listen to the rain (we've got a big clash of fronts above us - mucho rain).
A domani, tutti!

787. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #171938 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:52 am

Have you ever observed the gaits of animals with four legs such as horses or dogs?

Having driven behind a running moose, I dare say the authors took an easy option by going to a rodeo.
I'm guessing there's a lot of compromising to animal gaits in order to fit other components in, like carrying organs and such, that get in the way of perfect physical locomotion phenotypes...

788. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #171937 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:49 am

One can discuss matters like inclusive fitness without any specifics.

I see Brian got to this point before me...but what, without the environment, would fit be, then? It wouldn't be fitness, it would just be a state of being.

789. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #171934 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:45 am

Not sure about the Roo's tail being a limb. They are supposed to be joined, or prehensile.

http://www.answers.com/topic/limb has
2. One of the jointed appendages of an animal, such as an arm, leg, wing, or flipper, used for locomotion or grasping.

790. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #171930 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:41 am

I know. We are arguing on a philosophical point.
I know. I was jus feeling a bit stupid and thought I'd do a theist... ;-)

791. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171928 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:39 am

Sounds like you are a bit worried though. Look, your wife is living in a technologically advanced country with a medical savvy partner watching over her. Two huge pluses :-)

Childbirth, even with all the technology available, is still a worrying thing! And she's not a spring chicken no more... As for medical savvivity - that all goes out the window on the day, as I recall! :-)
But cheers, Corylus!
Oddly, a fortune teller once told my mother one of her children would have 2 children and one would have none...my sister is an avowed spinster...
Hmmmmm!

792. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #171922 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:35 am

To say otherwise is to say that animals fly inspite of the laws of physics

Don't they (always they - never names!) say that about bumblebees?

793. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #171921 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:34 am

Roos move both at once, hence the need for the forelimb-tail support when not hopping about.

Asymmetric bipedalism?
Anyway, the tail is still a limb.
Do spiders legs move in pairs? Hmmmm....
Then, of course, there's the North American elk (or moose). Have you seen one of them run? Trust me, no pairs there! Each leg is seemingly independent.

794. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #171915 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:30 am

Self organization occurs everywhere in nature without natural selection, are you saying that somehow the laws of physics and chemistry doesn't apply for biological pattern formations? I would like to hear a very good argument for that.

The Whoops Factor, I believe, where a mistake is made and not corrected... ;-)

795. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #171914 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:28 am

But a walk is a bipedal form involving the forward movement of one leg, then the other. Roos don't do that. :)

Uh huh. And centipedes do what? Or spiders (apart from get squashed by 2 and a half year old girls...)?
See - bipedalcentrism! Careful, there'll be a Turkish family after you! (Better find that reference in order to make sense!)

796. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #171911 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:25 am

I read Tank Girl in 2000AD - I know all about mean kangaroos! :-)

797. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #171910 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:24 am

Nope, I've seen them hop and stumble slowly. Even drag their back feet whilst using their tail and forelimbs as crutches. But never walk. :P

Aaaah, that's just your bipedal-centrism! Roos look at us and say "Bloody odd way of locomotion, that! Not the normal 3 limb, 2 limb, 3 limb, 2 limb gait..."
:-)

798. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #171908 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:21 am

So the fittest survive is just a tautology? The fit are those who survive, it sounds very Hegalianly circular to me.

Those that fit the environment. Not as in the opposite of tubby lardoes like me ;-)
2 way thing. The environment acts on the direction of evolution. Mutations beneficial to the organism's survival in the environment leads to their increased chance of bearing offspring.
Sometimes the environment changes - that's when the numbers thin out a bit. Sometimes the organism is just borderline good, or another organism comes in that is slightly better adapted to survival, which also results in population thinning. Red/grey squirrel is an example of that. Then, of course, nature roles the dice again and screws with the settings - apparently there are black squirrels now...mutations of the greys. They're mean futhermuckers!

799. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #171903 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:16 am

Not really a limb, is it?

Ever seen a kangaroo walk slowly?

800. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171900 by Goldy on April 29, 2008 at 2:13 am


Back to normal?

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