751. True faith is greater than the ranters

Comment #40305 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 5:26 am

nice post, Magpie.

752. True faith is greater than the ranters

Comment #40302 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 5:20 am

True faith is greater than the ranters

The title stopped me in my reading tracks, and I won't waste my time even reading the first sentence. I doubt very much the author can ascertain clearly and identify what true faith is; true according to what interpretation of which of the many faith-based systems out there? Or maybe this guy has patented a true faith stamp, and we just need to look at the foreheads of folks stamped accordingly?

753. Let us pray for the soul of Richard Dawkins

Comment #40292 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 4:58 am

Another interesting aspect, is if the human adult in the situation is female who has brought to term a baby herself. In that case, the levels of a certain hormone would most likely encourage/compel the female human to save the baby. This is the hormone that makes postpartum women respond to another mother's squalling infant.

754. Let us pray for the soul of Richard Dawkins

Comment #40289 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 4:53 am

If I was in this hypothetical situation supposedly posed by RD, I would try my best to wound the elephant, to slow it down, so I could save the baby.

As for trying to save this last elephant as being nonsensical because it is the last elephant, you are not given the information if this last elephant is a female, and if there is frozen male elephant sperm safely squirreled someplace.

755. Let us pray for the soul of Richard Dawkins

Comment #40279 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 4:35 am

In this country, belief is a minority practice and believers a persecuted lot. The rabid attacks by Dawkins and his camp-followers spur even the most mild-mannered Christian, Muslim or Jew into a hard-line position.
_______

What a sloppy and unclear conflation between the reality of a minority of the British population practicing religion with implying--with the most slimy intellectual dishonesty--that this minority status is solely because the hidden majority are not allowed to practice their particular brand of religion.

So what is it, open and well thought-out criticism of religion deters or spurs the practice of religion? In the second sentence quoted above, she seems a bit muddled about to which situation she is referring. This author has already committed two strikes against logic, and therefore, I will not give her a third chance and did not finish reading the article.

However, this pathetic kind of article, no matter how inane it is, is positive as others have pointed out. These religious apologists are realizing they must try to combat this very effective criticism against non-evidential religious beliefs--in part, being virally transmitted via the Net--to the best of their abilities. Happily, the best of their abilities is falling miserably short, and they are--apparently obliviously--further contributing to the swell of opposition against belief without evidence.

EDIT: Please double post--I just did, remember only one comment per 30 minutes is allowed at the Guardian site.

756. French Muslim women opt for hymen surgical cons

Comment #40243 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 2:17 am

20. Comment #39791 by Big T on May 12, 2007 at 12:08 am
Comment #39769 by Veronique: So men are (with very few exceptions) not worth the effort, because we can't perform up to your standards. Thanks for the affirmation. You are so sweet.
_______

Would you rather have us lie, so you could never have the opportunity to learn how to please a woman sexually? Any man has the ability to please a woman sexually. But of course if her clitoris is lopped off, then it is a moot point for the most part.

EDIT: Also please note that both Veronique and I came of the sexual age during a time when though the quantity was available--because of the birth control pill--the quality was still dismal because of the ignorance that men had concerning female sexual pleasure. Such ignorance has largely been lessened in western civilization.

757. French Muslim women opt for hymen surgical cons

Comment #40242 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 1:56 am

Bonzai wrote, I think the adaptive origin of male jealousy is pure speculation.I don't know of any evidence which suggests that the cave man was jealous and possessive of "his" women. He was probably more likely to mate and took off rather than sticking around to form a stable relationship.
________

Unfortunately, I cannot remember the study in particular, but the conclusion was that the predominance of red in many tribal rituals was because red stood for menstrual blood. For women in the tribe to keep their men from wandering, the females would menstruate collectively--which has something to do with the uncanny ability of women menstruating when smelling the menstrual blood of another. After awhile, just the color red did the same thing. Perhaps, someone else knows of this study and can elaborate more on it. I suppose that collective menstruating kept the males from wandering because they were waiting when the women would be sexually available?

758. French Muslim women opt for hymen surgical cons

Comment #40241 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 1:41 am

Luthien wrote, I can see you have never had the misfortune to incurr the crude attentions of a large group of males, who's reaction to a young woman is to engage in verbal abuse that is both sexual and physically threatening. I would imagine that the vast majority of women would find "invisible" a happy state in these circumstances.

_______

Brilliant!

759. French Muslim women opt for hymen surgical cons

Comment #40240 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 1:37 am

32. Comment #39947 by Sri Syadasti on May 12, 2007 at 11:21 am
There is a very simple solution to the problem of parental certainty and inheritance: matrilinealism.

It's a shame that very few cultures have thought of it.
______

Very interesting also. Makes you wonder if there could be any other reasons why it is not followed?

When I get truly discouraged at male mistreatment of females, I get a chuckle from realizing that it was the dominate male culture which gave us the technology allowing the liberation of women.

760. French Muslim women opt for hymen surgical cons

Comment #40236 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 1:15 am

Luthien wrote: "The only men worth the effort are the rational men, who are truely capable of seeing women as their equal, and not somehow their "property" to be protected from other men."
_______

After awhile--once I had significant carnal knowledge with the opposite sex--I devised a rule of thumb that any man with whom I would consider having sex would have to prove to me that he sees me as a human who happens to be female, and that he regards himself as a human who happens to be male.

But, I must say, that since the pickings were pretty slim in my desired category, I often settled for men who regarded me as half-human, half-woman!

761. French Muslim women opt for hymen surgical cons

Comment #40234 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 1:01 am

Veronique wrote, Out of all the blokes I had anything to do with, I could count on the fingers of one hand the ones that were actually worth the effort.
_______

What an interesting angle! Being just a little younger than you, but also having had been extremely sexually experienced when younger, I agree. Most men could not hold a candle--or a penis--to the pleasures that I myself was able to give me via masturbation--out of dozens I would say about 4 were worth remembering. If a woman is not sexually experienced like we are, then they would have nothing to compare one sexual experience with another. Good job, V!!!

762. In Loving Memory of William Luke Ashton: July 10th 1989 - Dec 25th 2006

Comment #40223 by Logicel on May 13, 2007 at 11:06 pm

In addition, despite noting the almost laughable immorality of Christianity where most aggressions against others are forgiven if God is asked for it, and that a notion of a pleasing afterlife would make you want to die as fast as you can, us atheists recognize Christians as fully human.

Christians function within a human morality set into motion way before the advent of Christianity, ensuring their morality, empathy, and decency despite the nonsense of their silly religious superstitions.

763. In Loving Memory of William Luke Ashton: July 10th 1989 - Dec 25th 2006

Comment #40221 by Logicel on May 13, 2007 at 10:48 pm

sorryrichard, You make the mistake of equating the embracing of Darwinian evolution with the embracing of social Darwinianism of which is not held dear at this site. When someone like you say what they say, I only realize how little they do understand about evolution, in order to equate it with the way we--us carnal creatures--conduct our social living.

Your silly and unproven notion of a soul is not the only way to accept and nurture precious life. With atheists, it is because life is precious for itself and for the meaning of which we can bestow on our lives, and not for some non-evidential sky daddy.

This young man was an atheist as is his father, and you are implying that because of atheism, you are unable to understand why the father of this young man is sad at his death? And why other atheists would be also. Unbelievable. You apparently think only religious people can feel empathy, grief, and sorrow as if religious beliefs make you human. How sad, how grievously sad that you think that way.

764. Kirk Cameron Proves That God Exists

Comment #40088 by Logicel on May 13, 2007 at 4:16 am

IQHQ wrote, Forgive me, but that girl Kelly is an intellectual lightweight.
________

A woman, nearly thirty years old and a mother of three is a girl in your book?

BTW, I draw and paint fairly well, but no materpieces will ever be done by me, I guess that makes me a 'lightweight', and I should just stop messing around with a medium in which I could get better, but never really good enough, so why should I keep on trying? I'll stop right now.

I also am a chef. Though, I cook fairly well, I will never reach the heights of culinary creativity as some very famous cooks, therefore, I will retire my wire whisk and slotted spoons right now.

In addition, my two cats are lightweight, they just meow instead of roaring--I will tape their mouths shut so I will no longer be annoyed by their lightweight sounds.

765. Dawkins transcendent

Comment #40087 by Logicel on May 13, 2007 at 3:47 am

Numen can mean creative genius, so Ms Gledhill's description of the drawing done by the artist Paul Winner as numinous is capturing her opinion of the quality of his drawing.

766. Consciousness Comes from DNA

Comment #40071 by Logicel on May 13, 2007 at 1:51 am

William C. Lyon, nice post!

767. Unintelligent Design

Comment #40013 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 4:50 pm

nice post, Shuggy. I like your style.

768. Ted Haggard Is Completely Heterosexual

Comment #40010 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 4:42 pm

If I remember correctly, In Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose, the main plot line was the keeping from public knowledge by a monk at all costs--including murder and arson--an ancient transcript which encouraged laughter and joking.

769. Hitchens and God: a book review

Comment #40009 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 4:33 pm

Good review. I appreciated the author emphasizing the importance of intellectual honesty, and I especially enjoyed the final paragraph.

770. Unintelligent Design

Comment #39989 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 2:22 pm

ranjani, thanks for the many links to articles which you have sent to this site.

Your point is well taken, however I avoid anything written by Atran even on the off chance it may contain some useful nuggets. He gets so much up my nose--I suppose in a similar manner in which Hitchens gets up other atheists' noses-- that I give the guy a wide berth.

771. Unintelligent Design

Comment #39977 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 1:28 pm

hasty toweling wrote, Scot Atran belongs to what Dawkins calls the "know-it-all" school of religious apologetics.
______

Moderate British Vicars who may not even believe in what they preach still want to keep their satisfying jobs. The sincere ones actually psychologically need to keep justifying the investment of their time and efforts spent on polishing on what they consider to be authentic job 'skills' and effective work.

I see the same motivation in writers/researchers like Atran. He has made his name in acquiring/interpreting information about different cultures/religions. His type is what I called the supposed 'missing link'--or so he would like to regard himself--between secular and religious viewpoints as if such opposing viewpoints could ever be reconciled. All I see is the same that I see in a squirming Vicar, someone who wants very much to continue to do work that he has done for a long time with which he is very personally identified and is perturbed by seeing his work made meaningless.

Atran comes across as a crystal ball reader who has covered his psychic tool with a dusty and familiar old cloth of his experience and knowledge gleaned from time spent 'in the field'. Whip away that protective cloth, and what do you see--a crystal ball.

772. Kirk Cameron Proves That God Exists

Comment #39972 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 12:37 pm

mewton wrote, I think it's great that the RRS is advertising at tiger beat, we need to get information to people while they are still young enough to have an open mind."
_______

As Sapient has said, the 'tiger beat' generation is being targeted already by the Christians. I say the present situation is more like teenagers being a captive audience for the Christians. RRS is clever in using the Net to reach this captive audience.

MarkSmith wrote, Once again, hurray (f)or citizen debates.
________

Thanks for that descriptive term, citizen debates. I couldn't jog my memory to come up with what constitutes the merit of this style of 'amateurish' debating.

773. The Case Against Intelligent Design: The Faith That Dare Not Speak Its Name

Comment #39958 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 11:41 am

A superbly written article. Duly bookmarked. It is a long article and will take a bit of time to read, but every minute is well spent. Though lengthy, it is still incredibly concise considering the amount of information contained within this article. A true pleasure to read from the title to the last word. Kudos, Jerry Coyne!

774. The meaning of freedom

Comment #39862 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 6:01 am

Yet again, religious beliefs are sowing division.

775. Kirk Cameron Proves That God Exists

Comment #39858 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 5:50 am

firemancarl, thanks for the clarification.

776. Dawkins transcendent

Comment #39857 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 5:43 am

As Russell Blackford mentioned on another thread, Ms Gledhill would be a nice person to have a conversation with. And I certainly hope Ms Gledhill had a chance of reading Blackford's limerick addressed to her.

Moderates who are familiar with a range of religious beliefs as Ms Gledhill is, are often gracious, making conversations pleasant and enjoyable but hardly ever fruitful. They have this uncanny protean ability to adjust an atheist's viewpoint to fit into their religious framework. Though a protean ability could be praised for its flexibility, again, the nifty little saying, "Don't have such an open mind, that your brains fall out" comes to mind.

RD is enamoured with and enthralled by nature, not the supernatural. Never has he ever given the slightest indication that he is interested in the supernatural. One can be flexible, but also consistent.

777. Dawkins transcendent

Comment #39853 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 5:23 am

stuartM02 wrote, if she writes a 3rd one, I'll bet RD will become a Christian.
_____

On the 4th article, RD will convert from Christianity to Islam.

778. Kirk Cameron Proves That God Exists

Comment #39850 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 5:20 am

Apparently both Ray and Kirk prayed during the debate. Perhaps that was the reason why Kirk had to have Bashir repeat a question for him.

Why didn't I use that excuse when I was caught daydreaming during my Catholic schooling? I could have replied to the irate nuns, "I was only praying, my dears, keep your habits on, for goodness sakes."

779. Kirk Cameron Proves That God Exists

Comment #39846 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 5:14 am

firemancarl, Where do you get that this author thinks Cameron won? My take is this very snarky review of the event is implying that the god squad fell flat on their deluded faces.

The author's sarcasm is clearly stated in the last sentence of the first paragraph:

If He does exist and is just, it will be the last.(implying to debates between theists and atheists)

780. Kirk Cameron Proves That God Exists

Comment #39833 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 4:27 am

pretty decent review, however snarky.

781. Abstain With Me

Comment #39832 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 4:22 am

Abstinence sex education is like hold-it potty training

Brilliant presentation. Tears of laughter are still rolling down my face.

This style is reminiscent of the great rock 'n' roll tear-jerker ballads replete with a falsetto/high pitched male voice.

782. Ted Haggard Is Completely Heterosexual

Comment #39826 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 4:12 am

He (i.e. T. Haggard) put the men in Ah men.

Hilarious.

Roy is part of the wonderful American, folk-music tradition of protesting, like Guthrie and Lehrer.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, Russell Blackford compose a limerick about Roy.

783. Defenders of Marriage

Comment #39825 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 4:04 am

Roy reminds me both of Woody Guthrie and Tom Lehrer.

I love you, Roy! You can strum my chords anytime.

784. The Debate: Can We Live by Reason Alone?

Comment #39824 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 3:49 am

Paikin conducted a fantastic interview, the best that I have ever seen made with Dawkins. Kudos, Paikin. As for the 'smarmy' manner of Paiken's interview style, my assumption, and it is a silly one at that, but I am going to let it rip nonetheless is the following:

Perhaps my artistic ability to draw portraits has made me notice that Paikin's face is very sharp-featured. His nose could make a loaf of uncut bread shiver in fearful anticipation of getting mercilessly sliced in a second flat, while his chin could do justice to an overcooked roast beef, taming it toughness and making neat, pretty slices of it. And not to mention that his wiry hair could scour out both the bread pan and roasting dish! So if I looked like that, I would try to temper my angular features with sheepishly scrunching my shoulders, hoping that would make them look softer therefore less threatening and frequently smiling though the smiling is done in a tight, tiny, frozen way, which is the only way my impossibly narrow jaw would allow.

785. Does God Exist? The Nightline Face-Off

Comment #39811 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 2:27 am

Kelly and Brian worked very well as a team; Kirk and Ray did so less--Kirk would have been better all by himself.

Kelly looked directly at the audience when she was speaking which was very effective. I am glad Brian recognized that he needs notes to read from, in this way, he will continue to build a skill base and eventually will be able to do what the professional actor, Kirk, can do so easily--speak without written aid.

However, Kelly and Brian do need to look directly at their opponents also, and Ray called them on it, implying that they were being shifty. It is hard for humans to look at something disgusting which the Chiquita boys with their pathetic grasp of evolution and their abundant intellectual dishonesty represented in spades, but some handle on doing it has to be devised by Kelly and Brian.

As for the inadequacies of Kelly's speaking voice which someone has brought up on another thread, her less than perfect speaking voice is more than made up by the direct and plain speaking style in which she phrases her words and ideas and her very confident and elegant way of holding herself, her physical stature. Her total 'package' packs quite a punch and together with Sapient, I think they will have a rewarding, fulfilling, and effective future as debaters against theism. They also, at their own site, admitted that they made mistakes and are asking for feedback. Please take them up on that suggestion.

Bashir did OK, also.

786. Does God Exist? The Nightline Face-Off

Comment #39805 by Logicel on May 12, 2007 at 1:41 am

good point, ADParker.

It takes about a minute to register at the original website--please double post.

Brian and Kelly did a good job in blowing away the cobwebby nonsense of Kirk and Ray.

Kirk's success as a popular actor--in my book he is a very poor actor--was so wonderful that he decided that he will cling to a make-believe so he can continue to enjoy his intensely successful life for eternity which is the height of arrogance and selfishness. There is no evidence for such eternity, and yet, because of his desperate need to continue to exist ALWAYS he sacrifices his apparent intelligence so he can delude himself. Sin does not exist, but Kirk is committing a grievance against his own humanity by not accepting his mortality. Poor sod.

Kirk is a failed preacher and Ray is a failed--and flailing--actor.

787. Is Christianity Good for the World?

Comment #39179 by Logicel on May 10, 2007 at 6:15 am

The most sheepish, fluffiest wool that has been spun and posted on this site into an insubstantial mess of inanity has been accomplished by Alvin Plantinga. Sorry, but that's my candidate for the infamous award of Spinner of substantial amounts of brown cloth, better known and trademarked as Crapolan, and I am sticking to my guns. However, McGrath is my second candidate.

788. Is Christianity Good for the World?

Comment #39175 by Logicel on May 10, 2007 at 6:05 am

Wilson, in his superficial, 'cheery' manner of understanding life, appears less than consciously alive. He seems taken aback by the collision of atoms, as that fact somehow seems to degrade his humanity, instead of making it possible, so he, can then make his life into something meaningful and fulfilling.

In addition to the compulsory critical thinking course, he needs one also in human-consciousness raising.

789. Is Christianity Good for the World?

Comment #39171 by Logicel on May 10, 2007 at 5:53 am

Do all human societies have a grasp of basic morality, which is the theme of your first point, or has religion poisoned everything, which is the thesis of your book?
______

Huh? Yeah, Wilson, poisoning means that all the basic morality has been wiped out by religion. If Wilson can't even piece a logical question together, how can he be expected to answer anything logically? He needs to take a course in basic critical thinking.

The result of the muddled question above could be that the discussion gets veered off its tracks by putting the focus on a topic not under discussion. Is this approach by Wilson motivated by his true lack of understanding of Hitch's points, or he is being 'cute'? And I doubt either way, it will result in diffusing Hitch's focus.

790. Is Christianity Good for the World?

Comment #39162 by Logicel on May 10, 2007 at 5:40 am

JoeK, nice post.

791. Gene mutation linked to cognition is found only in humans

Comment #39152 by Logicel on May 10, 2007 at 5:18 am

chadvader123 wrote, These are the words of a man who, in the midst of great depression,...
______

Well, then that is proof that God exists. Is that why Religion works so hard to depress people, so they can believe?

792. More on the Atheism Front

Comment #39151 by Logicel on May 10, 2007 at 5:15 am

...,we will discuss this through the month of May if the blind concourse of atoms continue to bounce their aimless way down through corridors of time.
_____

Nice debate pairing--Hitch and Wilson. They are both verbose, but at least Hitch spices up his verbosity with interesting, stimulating, and edgy content.

793. Gene mutation linked to cognition is found only in humans

Comment #39150 by Logicel on May 10, 2007 at 5:09 am

The 'weak', supposedly 'scientific' theory of Evolution is just getting hammered each and every day. Sigh.

These discoveries will continue. Great article.

794. Intellectual Diversity or Intellectual Insult?

Comment #39130 by Logicel on May 10, 2007 at 4:15 am

CJ22, Who is Cletus and Darlene?

Thank you for your kind words. The harm that religion has done can be identified concretely via the realities of the Inquisition, Crusades, and Jihadists. However, the kind of damage which my family--like countless of others--sustained because of religious influence is unfortunately immeasurable.

795. God . . . in other words

Comment #39129 by Logicel on May 10, 2007 at 4:09 am

john_eg, I noticed that site adm had posted test at the top of the list of articles on the right of this site for just a second or two. They may be having some technical difficulties.

796. God . . . in other words

Comment #39123 by Logicel on May 10, 2007 at 3:41 am

Biz wrote, Something smells fishy to me. Is it at all possible that Dawkins is now trying to present a softer image after taking so much criticism for his attitude towards God and religion? Forgive my scepticism, but from all that I've seen of Dawkins, this interview just seems very atypical.
_______

Firstly, please take up Corylus suggesting your reading Unweaving the Rainbow.

Secondly, could it be that Religion apologists are now realizing that the 'nasty' atheists are not being silenced by being called 'nasty', and to seriously debate with them, atheists books and arguments must be politely and fully considered?

In effect, the popularity and viral--thanks to the Web--dissemination of atheism is making the once protected notion that Religion must not be criticized less followed, opening up real discussion. Dawkins is not presenting his material in any less of a harsher way, his same manner of presentation is now being regarded in a more positive light. Biz, this change in perception is even happening to you!!!

797. Brazil Greets Pope but Questions His Perspective

Comment #39117 by Logicel on May 10, 2007 at 3:06 am

Mind Rebel, what an astute suggestion--I have been so encouraged to keep the Pope out on the sidelines, not I forgot that keeping him marginalized from the debate is just kowtowing to the ridiculous notion that somehow religion should not be lambasted with criticism every chance we get. We should set up a website encouraging for this debate to take place even if it is to debate the cyber pope:

http://www.cyber-pope.blogspot.com/

798. Gene mutation linked to cognition is found only in humans

Comment #39112 by Logicel on May 10, 2007 at 2:49 am

chadvader123, wrote: Then again, maybe I'm just crazy like Pascal, Newton, Collins,
C.S Lewis, J. R. R. Tolkien, St. Augustine, and the scores of others who became believers.
_______

Yes, the God Delusion is a very potent but BORINGLY COMMON DELUSION. And I do hope your delusion does not go even further, encouraging the regarding of yourself in such a blinding light that since you and these luminaries share the God Delusion that you also share their talent, scientific expertise, and creativity. But having already elevated, arbitrarily--without any evidence--your human origins to something unsubstantially divinely connected, your ability to run wildly and unconstrained with your particular brand of make-believe will permit any ludicrous conclusion to be reached.

As you pray for us, we will think for you.

799. Cardinal: homosexuality a form of prostitution

Comment #39103 by Logicel on May 10, 2007 at 2:10 am

Gotta love this Pope--in his desperation to stem the unrelenting decline of Catholicism, he is hastening it. Keep it up, my silly old dear.

EDIT: Oops, it is a cardinal that is hastening the decline of Catholicism, ok, that's good, though I think no additional efforts are needed as the Pope is doing a fine job all by himself.

800. Intellectual Diversity or Intellectual Insult?

Comment #39101 by Logicel on May 10, 2007 at 1:55 am

"But faculty groups argue that the reports called for by the legislation would actually create ideological litmus tests — as college administrators would feel forced to classify professors, student groups or outside speakers as "conservative" or "liberal" in ways that oversimplify and that encourage a bipolar view of the world at a time when many people would like to encourage campus debates to be more nuanced and subtle. Further, the idea that administrators might be drawing up reports in which they rank faculty members' politics in any way sounds a little too much like the era when people were asked "are you a member or have you ever been a member..." questions."
_______

If this bill is to encourage the presentation of conservative politics, which belongs in political science/history/ethics courses, then the political science/history/ethics departments should be scrutinized not the entirety of the academic offerings. As ID is only relevant in Religion classes, so is politics only relevant in political science/history/ethics courses.

Being the cynic that I am and a very happy graduate of an University, which was a wonderful mind-opening experience for me, I would say that the impetus here is to dumb down intellectual achievement driven by the fears and disdain of close-minded/rigid supporters of religious superstitions. This is the meddling that Christians love to do--we know what is best for everyone before they can even get to information that would allow them to decide for themselves. Universities are the bane of these people, always was, and always will be.

A personal anecdote is that my mother, a devout Catholic, back in the mid 1960s, was so angered at the secular university which she blamed for her eldest daughter's deconversion to atheism, that not only did my mother disown her daughter, a brilliant physicist and musician--my eldest sister--to the end of her days, she also deprived another older sister from attending the only university she could afford, a secular, public one. That sister was very intellectually curious and not being able to further her education was a factor in her nervous breakdown and subsequent death.