751. Hitchens vs. Hitchens

Comment #159509 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 11:17 am

Steve,

Interesting you bring up hero worship on this site, where Dawkins' hero status is quite comparable to Chomsky's among his fans.

752. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159508 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 11:15 am

Intelligence is measured by assessing one's reasoning, logic, and problem solving skills. So if someone is irrational and illogical, that would directly translate to a lower intelligence than someone who is more rational and logical.

Says who?

753. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159506 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 11:00 am

In any case, as Layla quite rightly says, why should he bother to remember which particular person holds which particular set of cherry-picked beliefs?

Well he should if he wants to make a point, or agree to a point made about a specific person's belief, especially it is an outlandish point concerning a very prominent fellow scientist such as Francis Collins. If he didn't remember, he should have said that,

754. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159497 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 10:21 am

Peacebeuponme

ertainly by the time Francis Collins has written the book he has had a long time to think about how his faith fits in with such events.

I don't know how this works, but it seems plausible that sometimes the shock is so great that the personality may suffer some kind of permanent scar which makes it difficult to be "rational" and detached when that wound is revisited, even many years later. Things get tugged away somewhere, but don't really go away. They are not just stored in a warehouse, but they continue to exert influences on our thinking and emotions. For example, childhood traumas have very long lasting effects into adulthood.

I'm sure Benway would have a better way to explain that.

755. Fleabytes

Comment #159482 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 9:24 am

Frankus,

You can have an intellectual understanding of the world as you believe it really is based upon evidence that confirms your belief. 'Scientism' is flexible.

Well to me "scientism" is characterized by an over confidence and certainty of our methods in getting and evaluating "evidence" which then becomes rigid.

In principle of course we agree. But in practice things are always more murky if you cannot do a lot of repeated runs in a lab. This would exclude most situations concerning human affairs.

Nowadays everything becomes a science, so you have political "science", management "science" and the social sciences in general. It is fashionable. There has to numbers and measurements attached to everything in order to sound respectable. "Evidence based" is the new buzzword to get fundings. But "evidence" for what?

I can tell you based on first hand experience (anecdotal "evidence") that their methods are very dubious scientifically to say the least.

In fields that involve human activities, it is very seldom that we can actually disentangle all the factors and study effects based solely on "evidence", unless the question is very stripped down to the point of near triviality, and even then the numbers may still be just bunks,

To cite an example which you, as an educator would be familiar with. Why is it that many teachers have to go out of their ways to create a bell curve for grade distribution? If it is based on any real science I am afraid I don't understand, even though I would say I probably know more statistics then your average university grad in the discipline. Then there is another question, what do grades really measure?

The opposite to scientism is not religious faith, but the humility to acknowledge that we actually know very little concerning human affairs and our methods can be wrong and often not applicable, Indeed if we look at history almost everything "science" informed us confidently about human nature in the past had turned out to be extremely naive or totally wrong,

The opposite to scientism is to accept uncertainty.Faith, on the other hand, is an attempt to restore false certainty and rigidity when science cannot offer them, so it is not an antidote to scientism, but a big leap in the completely wrong direction.

756. Fleabytes

Comment #159467 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 8:50 am

flying goose,

" the problem with scientism is that it fetters human thought as cruelly as any authoritarian belief system has ever done"
Seeing as I have got to write an essay on this stuff I would be interested in your enlightened thoughts.

Can you clarify what do you mean by "scientism"?

Science often has very little truly relevant to say about the human experience.

Science provides a third person narrative while often humans want a first person one.

So I agree that "scientism" is naive. It would be tyrannical if pesudoscientific methods are adopted to run society without check and balance. Everything would be measured and classified and controlled in a "rational" way.. when we actually know very little about what we are measuring and classifying.

There is a cult of science and measurement taking hold in some circles, but usually this is not from the real scientists, rather it originates from government bureaucracies, the corporate boardrooms and purveyors of pesudoscience such as management schools.

Dostoevsky wrote that humans are irrational beings, if you put them in a palace of reason they will rebel. But I am not sure if the very idea of a palace of reason,--the worship of "reason",--is that reasonable and rational at all.

757. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159461 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 8:32 am

Roboholic

The man is striaght and married. Shame on you.

758. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159460 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 8:29 am

For those who Bash Bill Maher let it be known that he is the only person on TV/Cable in the USA that openly bashes god and religion for what it really is and does it no matter who is on his panel.

So what? Should we then endorse every dim witted, obnoxious, attention seeking celebrity who just happens to be an atheist?

759. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159456 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 8:25 am

Peacebeuponme

Its not about finding a positive aspect to some terrible event. Its about believing in a god who allows such events, and still finding a way to call that god loving and good.

I think Benway is right on the money.

When you wrote "believing", you seemed to be thinking of an intellectual activity. But this is probably not the case here. It is a coping mechanism, probably an instinctive response rather than a well thought out rationalization.

When horrible things happen, sometimes people need some reasons, no better how bad or absurd the reasons may be. For some traumatized people, bad explanations are still better than no explanation,--like saying shit happens, move on.

760. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159432 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 7:27 am

I cannot stand Maher. The guy is shallow, smug and ugly, he is not even funny. Just one of those loud mouthed, witless, talentless twits who infest American night time television for whom smart arses remarks are somehow equated with "comedy".

761. Scientists take drugs to boost brain power: study

Comment #159424 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 7:09 am

Well the point of this is probably not that scientists are abusing prescription drugs (LSD doesn't count, sorry), but that they do this for a specific purpose, namely to gain a competitive edge. If there is truth to it it shows an aspect of science as a social institution that we should worry about.Namely that it has becomes a very competitive industry perverted by money, ego and the pressure to produce rather than the desire to seek truth.

762. Fleabytes

Comment #159422 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 7:03 am

Philip

I keep thinking of the word genitals but thats just my filthy, delinquent and substandard mind at work, must be all that Marilyn Manson I listen to!

I thought only roboholic listens to Marilyn Manson all day.

763. Fleabytes

Comment #159416 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 6:43 am

Quetzalcoatl

What does it say about you if you've never heard of Albert Tatlock?

Some possibilities.

1) You are not British

or

2) You are young

or

3) You have a life and have better things to do than watching a never ending 40 year old soap opera.


These are inclusive ors, meaning and/or in common usage.

I have no idea who Albert Tatlock is until now, I looked that up from the Wikipedia. I swear on Richard Dawkin's sacred name that is the truth!

************************

Happy birthday Geoff.

764. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159269 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 8:02 pm

Epinephrine

Rep. Davis wasn't speaking as an individual, she is a representative of the government, speaking in a government setting. It was completely inappropriate, and she should be fired, just as any person who works a retail would be if they were incredibly rude to a customer. You bet your ass a clerk will be fired if he hands someone their purchase and says something bigoted/threatening

How is it different from an elected official saying liberalism is a menace, or conservatism is a scourge? Should he be fired because he supposedly also represents citizens who are liberals or conservatives?

The point is Davis did not have the legal power to evict Shermer from the chamber. She told him to leave but he was not obliged to obey, and he didn't. Davis was not speaking on behalf of the state because her words had no legal authority.

If she actually used her official power to prevent him to speak,--say by starting a formal motion to ban atheists from speaking in the chamber,--that would have been a different story. While certainly boorish and overbearing, she hadn't crossed the line into abusing power.

765. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159149 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 1:55 pm

Quetzalcoatl

it is hard to believe that a queer-hating surgeon, who might well despise and discriminate against gays in every other aspect of his life, would suddenly become even-handed when he had "one of them" on the operating table in front of him

So should an atheist doctor who loathes religion be allowed to work in a Catholic hospital and treat religious patients? Have you watched the TV series "House"?

Strange it may sound, I think many professionals do have ways to separate their personal likes and dislikes from what is required to be done professionally. This is indeed a huge part of professionalism.

Until there is evidence that the doctor is unable to make this distinction, I don't believe he should be banned for thought crimes.

766. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159145 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 1:47 pm

blackwolf

. Evidence shows that the death could have been easily avoided

If there is evidence that the patient was dead because of easily avoidable mishaps the doctor should be fired and face investigations anyway, It is completely irrelevant whether the patient was homosexual or not, and whether the doctor hates homosexuals or not.

On the other hand, the hospital boss should not be able to deny the surgeon a job based on his private thoughts if he is the best candidate for the job One may argue that the applicant's views on gay should be considered part of the hiring criteria. Perhaps, but it doesn't have to be.

So, no, the hospital boss should not go,

767. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159139 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Annabanana

If you have a true hatred for a portion of the population, do you really think it is really easy to put that aside when doing your job?

Good question.

The answer is maybe, maybe not. But the price to live in a free society is that we do assume people are capable of conducting themselves in a responsible manner until proven contrary. I would rather err on given people too much credit instead of too little. I don't want to see people being fired from their jobs or otherwise punished because of "improper thoughts".

768. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159134 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 1:29 pm

Diacanu

She used her bullying yap to stifle this guy's freedom of speech.

But that is quite apart from trying to use her political office to deprive him of his freedom of speech. The former is, well, bad debating form; the latter is abuse of power.

Bullying is quite common in debates, whether in parliaments, city councils or the internet. You only get bullied if you allow yourself to be bullied, but you must submit to the power carried by political office. I think we shouldn't confuse the two,

769. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159129 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 1:23 pm

Diacanu

Until the next time her and her buddies wanna shovel public funds into the church's coffers.

Then nail her on that. It is a completely separate matter. I think she may go to jail if found misappropriating funds regardless of whether she sent them to the Church or the RD foundation.

770. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159110 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 12:55 pm

That's why I said she TRIED to.

Should people be fired because of ill intent?

She has apologized, he has accepted it, I think it should be over. Let them vote her out if the electorates think that her views on atheism make her unfit for office.

771. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159102 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 12:42 pm

Diacanu

It wasn't just an opinion..

And freedom of speech isn't a "get out of everything", card.
She tried to fuck with someone's rights.
You can't turn around and snivel that her right to fuck with someone's rights are being fucked with if she's removed from the office that allows her to do so.

It'd be like whining that a teacher getting fired for being a pedophile is intolerance.

Did Sherman "get out" after being told to? I could be wrong but I don't think he did.

Davies simply has no power to eject him. Her telling him to "get out" was not legally binding, It was bullying, but not an abuse of office and it didn't deprive Sherman's right to speak. It was very rude and exposed her bigotry, but it wasn't illegal.

I am afraid it was in fact only an opinion, though very rudely and "forcefully" expressed.

I don't think your comparison of pedophilia holds up.

772. The List: The World's Worst Religious Leaders

Comment #159052 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 11:31 am

Except perhaps for Nasrallah, they are all nobodies with only limited, local influences.

These are mostly politicians,-- at least one is a cult leader,-- caught up in local conflicts rather than religious leaders proper.

If they are somehow used as representatives of religion then indeed most believers can justifiably say "these are not our gods".

I wonder who came up with a list like this. I sense that it is probably more about political axe grinding than anything else. It may not be an accident that Nasrallah tops the list and he happens to be the only person on the list who has some international recognition.

773. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158979 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 9:19 am

Paula,

Meant by whom? God? I don't believe in him.

The people who wrote the stories, of course. You don't have to believe that there is a God to believe that somebody did write the NT, do you?

774. Scientists take drugs to boost brain power: study

Comment #158977 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 9:14 am

Scientists are actually cool because they are high too. Maybe this finding will recruit more young people to science than all popular science lectures that Richard Dawkins will ever give,

775. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158941 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 7:52 am

Paula,

I simply don't find that remotely persuasive. There is a myth that Jesus as shown in the NT was some sort of outstandingly wonderful character. I really don't find him that special.

Maybe he was not supposed to be an outstandingly wonderful character? I think one reason the Jews dismiss the Christian claim is that they simply cannot accept a Messiah who was so ordinary.

I actually think that many Christians miss the point too by trying to put Jesus on some pedestal. This was a guy who hanged out with prostitutes, tax collectors and other outcasts (It is kind of ironic that D-I-O accused atheists as "outcasts of their people", that would actually be a very good description of Jesus and his followers)

776. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158932 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 7:30 am

Paula

Just someone who didn't make his own job 100 times harder and more dangerous by antagonising people it would have been smarter not to antagonise

But then if he were more diplomatic he probably wouldn't have gotten himself crucified, would he? In that case he would have failed his mission.

I actually see Jesus as a very sympathetic figure, a man-god who betrayed genuine human emotions. In some way he was supposed to encapsulate the fate of man, with all his humanity and vulnerability. I find the most moving passage in the NT was his prayers in Getsemani, begging the father to take away the bitter cup..

IMO God the father was the bastard in the NT narrative, not Jesus.

But then I may have my view coloured by Nikos Kazantzakis' "the last temptation of Christ". A great book, by the way, much better than the movie.

777. Hitchens vs. Hitchens

Comment #158922 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 7:12 am

You can check out Chomsky's view and his debates with critics at

http://zmag.org/

778. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158918 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 7:06 am

Yes, the Bible does not relate the story of the impoverished pig farmer, I suspect he was one of the jeering crowd at the crucifixion!

He might have been a rich farmer to have a whole herd. Moreover, Jews had no business raising pigs according to Judaic law, The pig farmer had to be gentile, probably Roman.

779. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158914 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 7:03 am

Paula

No, I find it rather hard to buy in to this "wonderful Jesus" idea. The Jesus as presented in the NT has his good moments, it's true, but he's also moody, incredibly opaque in some of his answers, petulant, unpredictable, and incredibly undiplomatic - NOT a good quality in someone who'd supposedly been sent from God to win people over.

Actually I don't feel that way at all. I think part of the attractive aspect of Jesus to the believers comparing to other aloof deities in other religions is that he was very human in many ways and walked in our shoes, so to speak.

What would you think God should have sent as his representative? A slick, smooth talking PR man in a three piece suit?

780. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158907 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 6:51 am

He sent a load of pigs off on a marathon run and made them jump off a cliff!

I can see the porkers needing some exercises.

BTW, isn't that weird that there were actually pig farmers in ancient Israel while pigs were supposed to be abominations for the Jews? Maybe they were Roman pigs..

781. Scientists take drugs to boost brain power: study

Comment #158900 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 6:44 am

lthough ... instead of studying, here I am on this forum ... maybe my concentration is slipping? Anyone have some adderall?

I can certainly relate to that. The other night my roommate gave me two tablets of dextroamphetamine to boost my concentration and help me to stay up late to read some papers and do some work. I ended up not sleeping for 48 hours and spending most of my time here... I will never touch that stuff again.

782. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158896 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 6:41 am

MAXD

Its one of the reasons I think it may well be Richard Morgan. It is the kind of petty thing I link with his earlier behavior this week. Storming off, deleting almost all of his posts, lurking which he was definately doing

I agree, and it seems too much of a coincident that Diogenes happens to be the name of RM's old Mr.Hat.

783. The simple falsehood at the heart of Expelled

Comment #158892 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 6:37 am

Steve,

I am shocked. I am going to agree with Bonzai

Well remember in the good old days we do agree quite a bit sob sob.. Don't worry, I am not flirting in case your hubby read this. ;)

784. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158888 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 6:31 am

I start forgetting after about 8 pints when the women start looking better!

You sure that was a woman?

A couple of times I woke up in the morning after a rather heavy night on the tiles to discover not only could I not remember the night out I had cleaned my room, even hoovered it the second time. I was really freaked out, I had folded all my clothes, dusted - everything! :)

Wow, it is like having a maid..Maybe I should take to heavy drinking too.. my room is kind of a mess..It badly needs some cleaning..:)

785. Scientists take drugs to boost brain power: study

Comment #158880 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 6:26 am

Well scientists are just people, they eat and shit. Since overall there are many people in the society at large abusing prescription drugs I don't see why scientists would be different. If anything they have even more incentive than Joe Blow because the publish or perish culture of the academe makes science very much like a competitive sport.

786. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158874 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 6:19 am

I'll pass..:(

787. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158872 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 6:16 am

I specifically make a point in the office of choosing very obscure times to have a cuppa, hence the 12:31 notice!

That sounds like lunch time. :)

788. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158861 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 6:04 am

phasmagigas

I drink "orange pekoe", cheap tea bags I get with $2 Canadian for 100. Sometimes I drink Chinese green tea for a change, They are usually a dollar for 20 or something like that.

I drink all day and night and have lost count long ago. I have built up so much caffeine tolerance that I can have a double shot of expresso and go right to bed..

789. The simple falsehood at the heart of Expelled

Comment #158855 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 5:58 am

Goldy

Ah, yes, the good old "That's not MY God!" argument. Trouble is, every person has his or her own interpretation of Jesus' command. Including Paul, who you slavishly follow now. How do you know you are following Jesus' teaching? After all, EVERYTHING you know about Jesus is what Paul said and I hear Jesus' own brother didn't agree with him. ..

"That is not my God" is a valid point against strawman arguments.

It is true that there is a wide range of interpretations for Jesus' teaching, but somehow I don't think Hitler fits anywhere in that spectrum.If you have to squeeze him in he is probably so far away from what you would call the mainstream to be hardly relevant to any Christian or critic of Christianity.

790. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158846 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 5:46 am

Philip,

Bloody hell, its 12:31, its time for more tea..

Do you mean just tea or tea as in tea with cucumber sandwich? I dunno, I drink tea the whole day and there is no schedule to it. I have a tea stained cup in front of me and I usually use two tea bags in one cup.. Cheap tea, of course.

There is something familiar about you announcing your tea time.Didn't Veronique use to say things like "bloody hell, it is 12:31, time for another booze.."?

I prefer tea, as I am not very alcohol tolerant.. get terribly high with only one drink and wake up the next day with a head ache. Tea I can drink all day all night..

791. The simple falsehood at the heart of Expelled

Comment #158673 by Bonzai on April 10, 2008 at 11:02 pm

'. Many catholics are critical of the conduct of the catholic church, this does not magically make them non-christian. Many christians object to portions of the bible, this is not sufficient to consider them apostates.

The question should be which part of the Jesus' teachings did Hitler uphold? You need an ultra Post Modernist understanding of Christianity in order to pin Hitler on Christianity. You can make fair criticisms against Christianity both in its dogmas and practice as understood by mainsrream Christians,--granted there are variations and diversities,--without having to erect strawmen.

I think Hitler just saw something of utilitarian value in religion and exploited it. These are the same "virtues" that many traditionalists extol, things like respect for authority, discipline etc, It just happened to be Christianity since Germany was a Christian country. It could have been Shintoism or atheistic Confucianism if Hitler were Japanese or Chinese. Rastafarianism, however would not work, because everyone would just get mellow and high.

P.S. Please be easy with the links, we know how to use google.:)

792. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158646 by Bonzai on April 10, 2008 at 9:15 pm

Dio aka Richard Morgan is the one who is suffering from God withdrawal over Dawkins,

Who but RM himself used to worship at the prof's feet with his fawning musical offerings and words of adulation? Who, but Richard Morgan himself who has been bemoaning about not finding a "community" in Rd.net at Robertson's site?

Nobody else seems to suffer from the delusion of finding true God and happiness in Richard Dawkins and the internet but Morgan himself, who seems to be pathologically craving attentions and that warm, fuzzy feeling of belonging even in cyberspace.

Morgan, with this "God shaped hole in his heart" that is hungry to be filled, set up Dawkins as a "god" only to find him lacking, who should be blamed for his disillusions? Not the prof, that much is clear.

So what now, the spurned lover and the disillusioned believer turns on his former idol,--and only his,-- with all the venom he can muster and projects his former self onto the rest of us. This is delusional on many levels, being religious is probably the least of it.

It is sad.

sign: a happy and well adjusted "homosexualist".

793. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158596 by Bonzai on April 10, 2008 at 7:51 pm

MaxD,

Yeah, it's kind of odd. Now I believe in ghosts, at least in the internet...

794. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158586 by Bonzai on April 10, 2008 at 7:35 pm

Wasn't Diogenes2008 Richard Morgan's sock puppet?

Boy, as Stephen King said, sometimes they come back...

795. Fleabytes

Comment #158420 by Bonzai on April 10, 2008 at 1:15 pm

IMHO the greatest sockpuppet of all time was given to us by the writers of the NT.

I would nominate Mohammad instead. At least the NT writers didn't claim they were possessed by Jesus.

796. Fleabytes

Comment #158136 by Bonzai on April 10, 2008 at 5:53 am

So Brian, are you saying you are actually BAEOZ too?

I am really confused now, I am slow...

797. Fleabytes

Comment #158129 by Bonzai on April 10, 2008 at 5:34 am

Brian,

Are you ok? Why the deleting and lurking? Now this Richard Morgan like gesture of musical offering.

I am serious, you freak me out.

798. Fleabytes

Comment #158102 by Bonzai on April 10, 2008 at 4:26 am

Keith wrote:

Steve, you seem to be making a career out of being 'a nice man' and it sometimes drives you into odd positions.

And someone else here seems to make a career out of being a prick. To each his own.

799. Fleabytes

Comment #158093 by Bonzai on April 10, 2008 at 4:13 am

Steve,

I can put myself in the place of someone who has screwed up on a site or forum and has an "I wish I was never there" attitude, wanting to erase their presence. I can imagine it being a form of self-destructive behaviour, part of wishing to hide from the world, perhaps out of embarassment.

Sometimes I feel that way too. I take it as a sign that I need to go out more and meet some people in real life for a change,

IMO if someone becomes so obsessed with his/her online persona he/she ought to take a break from it and smell the coffee, or the dog shit, whatever that is real. As Socrates said, it is only the internet, No disrespect intended, online fora are not real communities.

What is truly pathetic is that some sad recluse actually thinks that a cyber life is better than the real life and that thanks to Moore's law we will all become cyber creatures and that is a thing to look forward to. I won't mention names but I think you all know who I have in mind. Call me old fashion, I find the idea horrible.

800. Beware the Believers

Comment #157961 by Bonzai on April 9, 2008 at 9:45 pm

So who is this Kyrie person? Is he the creator of the video? Just wondering since he sounds so authoritative.