801. Floods are judgment on society, say bishops

Comment #53569 by BillySands on July 2, 2007 at 4:39 am

Maybe god is angry at the fact we dont have enough Gay bishops
Well, obviously not the OT god, he wants to kill them

802. Floods are judgment on society, say bishops

Comment #53454 by BillySands on July 1, 2007 at 2:04 pm

the bishops argue controversially that the flooding is a result of Western civilisation's decision to ignore biblical teaching.

let's get back to stoning gays and taking sex slaves then - TWAT!

803. Rival to evolution may enter schools

Comment #53288 by BillySands on June 30, 2007 at 3:07 pm

just checked the truth in science joke site, Apparently there is a new design feature in the eye - shame they have no evidence of ths claim, I checked the flagellum page http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/site/content/view/240/63/
they cite this paper as evidence that the flagellum gave rise to the ttss and not the otherway around http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/104/17/7116
thet say

The authors disagree with the idea that the flagellum has evolved from the TTSS, and write that TTSS genes are "derived from" (p. 7120) flagellar genes. There is some evidence that the simpler structure of the TTSS could have evolved from the more complex structure of the flagellum, not vice versa.

However, the paper actually says

The structural features of the flagellum, along with the evidence of homology between FliI and ATP synthase subunits and between MotA/B and the secretion proteins TolQ-TolR, suggests that it originated as a primitive secretion system (16), first involving ATPase and then adding the rod, hook, and filament components by gene duplication and diversification. Its original role as a secretion apparatus is also supported by the clear links between the flagellum and the TTSS, a protein delivery system whose genetic architecture is similar to and derived from a flagellar gene complex (17, 20).

The paper also points out that some proteins are not necessary for flagellar function, further reducing its complexity.
Typical lying fundies!

804. Richard Dawkins talks about Darwin and his visit to the Galapagos

Comment #53263 by BillySands on June 30, 2007 at 12:24 pm

Paul,
the events that cause mutation are random - eg, environmental factors like radiation or mutagens. There are also random errors in DNA copying and repair. We often get things like viruses randomly integrating into our genomes, and random errors in the production of eggs and sperm. What selects these mutations are not random. Imagine there is an advantage in being able to detect an extra colour. We could better tell poisonous or ripe fruits for example (this is probably what selected coulour vision in humans, and our opsin genes have been duplicated, and random mutation has produced one that has an altered wavelentgh detection). That gives an advantage as you can spend less time foraging, and dont get poisoned. Conversely, bad mutations are selected against. Imagine a wading bird on a mudflat. If it has a mutation that increases the surface area of its feet, it can forage better and will produce more offspring, and those carrying the mutation will be favoured. Those with a mutation that decreases the area of the foot will be at a disadvantage and will be selected against. Most mutations are bad and are selected against. hope that helps

805. Inferior Design: Richard Dawkins reviews Behe's lastest book

Comment #53248 by BillySands on June 30, 2007 at 10:23 am

I think highlighting the unscientific nature of ID is important. We see it so often here when trolls come on and say things like "(insert famous non bio-scientist of choice)" says life looks designed. Their arguements are more appeals to authority than anything real or threatening to science, bbut the public dont realise that.

Love the term "memosphere" I plan to use it in a dissmissive way at the first possible opportunity :-)

806. God Hates the World

Comment #53241 by BillySands on June 30, 2007 at 9:04 am

Cool J (isn't that a rapper) I'll send you a PM with my email address. I was sold a bum camera. I got some of Killi from mount meru, but it stopped working a few days later

807. God Hates the World

Comment #53238 by BillySands on June 30, 2007 at 8:37 am

You have got to wonder, why not just forgive people?
David points out one of the most bizzare contradictions of christianity: god forgives you, but you still have to answer to him - how strange! the thing about judas is, apparently he will sit at a throne in heaven:

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "Most certainly I tell you that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on the throne of his glory, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I have a slight hunch the bible is inconsistant nonsence made up by people.
What do you think?

Di sounds interesting

808. Richard Dawkins talks about Darwin and his visit to the Galapagos

Comment #53224 by BillySands on June 30, 2007 at 7:24 am

Cheers TemporaryAura
Shame it wasn't a free church of Scotland. Mind you, one day they will be giving them away free :-)

809. Richard Dawkins talks about Darwin and his visit to the Galapagos

Comment #53205 by BillySands on June 30, 2007 at 5:02 am

Donald
It is also worth mentioning that sex greatly increases the rate of evolution. It allows transfer of beneficial mutations to new individuals that have themselves aquired beneficial mutations. Genes interact, and selection acts on more than one factor at a time. A simple example would be multiple drug resistance. An asexual organism would produce a beneficial mutation in the genepool at a low rate, and doesnot get transferred between members of the species. You would then have some individuals resistant to drug A or B, but not both. Sex allows individuals that spontaneously generate mutatants to A and B to mix their genes. The result is the sexual populatin become multidrug resistant much faster than the asexual population, where individuals need to generate both mutations on their own.

810. Yes, the universe looks like a fix. But that doesn't mean that a god fixed it

Comment #53203 by BillySands on June 30, 2007 at 4:37 am

This would appear to be the usual Dawkins-esgue escapism. Logically there are three 'states' of existence: impossible (eg square circles), possible (eg humans), and necessary (eg God). Since it is logically possible to have a necessary being then it is futile to ask where it came from or who designed it. By definition a necessary existence has no designer, cause, or beginning.

Richard Dawkins asserts that living organisms are immensely complex and seem to have been intelligently designed. Similarly physicists like Hoyle, Davies, Hawking acknowledge that this is also the case with the physical constants of the universe. Therefore, we propose, quite reasonably that the universe and the organisms within it were designed.
The question as to the Designer's origin is resolved by saying that it is uncaused or Necessary which is in line I might add with the Bible.

Defend that statement! How does it follow that god is necessary?
When will YECs stop quoting Dawkins out of context on design?

Why does the designer have to be uncaused? Why can't the universe be uncaused. These however are not the questions that made you believe in YEC though are they? The universe is old with many many planets and Archaeopteryx is more dinosaur than bird - I believe that is where we left off before

811. God Hates the World

Comment #53200 by BillySands on June 30, 2007 at 4:17 am

Great links guys. There is also a jobbi in tanzania - unfortunately My Camera stoped working, so I couldn't get a photo of the jobbi clinic - was more annoyed with that than not being able to take a photo from the summit of Killimanjaro.
Anyone not familliar with what a jobbi(e) is, this should explain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga2Z5wpQtBE&NR=1

Shuggy I believe you are correct about the local pronunciation, but it can also be a term for a girl's naughty bits.

Isn't it worse than that? Isn't the father and son the one in the same

So that means he is his own dad because he has sex with his own mum ?!!??!!?

812. God Hates the World

Comment #53142 by BillySands on June 29, 2007 at 4:16 pm

j
Yep, they dont get it that all their stuff is subjective and prone to personal bias. To them, it is a self fulfiling prophecy. For example, you pray for 100 people with ME, 1 gets better, therefore because you prayed, it was god. For all the rest, god had hs reasons (for their own good) why he did not heal the rest. Of course, ME may be a pshychological disease, and the drugs used to treat it (serotonin uptake inhibitors) affects brain chemistry (actually, LSD acts on a particular serotonin receptor) More important, people recover spontaneously all the time. Another friend (an atheist) had it and with in a few months of recovering, climbed mount kenya.
I'm having a discussion about that on my mates blog at the moment. Seems they must be spouting this at church these days.
I've heard good things about your posts on DRs site, but I know if i read them I would need to get drawn in.
They cant deal with memes though.

813. God Hates the World

Comment #53138 by BillySands on June 29, 2007 at 3:55 pm

If your response is to Richard, I look forward to hearing it.

Ah Richard, I remember running rings around him. He thought gen 3:15 was proof gid knew about human eggs - talk about grasping at straws: 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

814. God Hates the World

Comment #53103 by BillySands on June 29, 2007 at 11:09 am

You know, he could be an atheist 5th columnist....

Or in the closet. It's not that healthy to be obsessed with RD. At least it shows he has them worried, so TGD worked

815. Richard Dawkins talks about Darwin and his visit to the Galapagos

Comment #53101 by BillySands on June 29, 2007 at 10:53 am

Bizzarro,
Try actually reading about evolution. Go read about the alx-4 gene in dogs, read about dupication of opsin genes and subsequent mutation for just one of many examples of increased information as you call it. Read up about radiation in lake malawi and lake victoria cichlids. the piss all over darwin's finches (which are still good examples.
Lack of intermediates? are you taking the piss? Also arguements generally revolve around whether a fossil is nore like A OR B. Not whether it is an intermediate or not, Statements like yours are typical of those who misrepresent evolution

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part2b.html for a tiny fraction of intermediates

816. God Hates the World

Comment #53096 by BillySands on June 29, 2007 at 10:14 am

Hi Paul, If the religious are censoring your reason loaded views, you could post it here.

817. God Hates the World

Comment #53021 by BillySands on June 29, 2007 at 2:59 am

What I do dispute and what I strongly object to is RD posting this video here in defence of his views.

I know that believing in a god you have no real evidence for can cause you to losen your standards, but generally, if someone makes a claim, it is good to have proper evidence to back it up. The better the evidence, the more likely the claim is true. Dawkins has a claim and he has evidence. Maybe the fact that this can be verified is what you really object to. I would rather see you attack the perpetrators of this crime, and not the person who has raised our awareness of the problem

818. God Hates the World

Comment #52941 by BillySands on June 28, 2007 at 3:14 pm

Dr Benway
You remind me of Amos 5:15 Hate evil, love good,

Liars and abusers are bad, but I cant quite bring myself to hate David (sorry dude, I know you really want me to- but you can still carry on pretending if you want - that's nice of me to let you, isn't it)
Acording to god, homos are bad, but I cant hate them either.

However, it is good to marry a hot virgin that you rape ( deut 22:28-29) and kill your family for worshiping other gods ( deut 13:6-9 ) - think I'll pass on those too.

I must be an evil c**t to not agree with this

This may come as a shock to Dave, but Solomon never actually wrote the book of ecclesiastes. Most proper scholars attribute it to an author during the babylonian exile

819. God Hates the World

Comment #52933 by BillySands on June 28, 2007 at 2:43 pm

Oh David, I think you have just shown that you really like confrontation "I took my first vow - not to answer someone who really struggles with such hatred. It only adds fuel to the fire...."

really? telling people who struggled to keep their faith and are looking to engage in debate that they are simple, need therapy, are on wacky baccy etc is not fanning the flames?
Where is the hatred? Not taking shit from someone who are abusive and lies - repeatedly is not hate. Hate is deuteronomy 28. Hate is stalking Dawkins and using a human tragedy - the little girl in the video to try feebly to score some points.
What exactly do you think i hate? You have said christians in the past, but I have good christian friends, so tha cant be it. I have told you I dont hate you. I think you are sad and talk shit, but wouldn't wish some biblical hate on you. So what is it? Call me cynical, but a pattern emerges here: when you cant mount a counter challenge you throw insults and convince yourself that you have the moral high ground , so challenges dont need to be answered. I would say that qualifies as acting like a prick. There is also a subtle implication in the command "stop being a prick", it implies you may actually be able to improve your behaviour - perhaps I'm giving credit where it is not due though. I also asked you if this video should not be exposed. I presume you from your silence and reaction that you would rather hush it up

820. God Hates the World

Comment #52924 by BillySands on June 28, 2007 at 2:25 pm

Coel
Hope you dont mind me butting in

"Atheism" is not an agreed set of doctrines, it is merely an absence of certain doctrines. There is no reason at all why I should agree with or feel responsible for some other atheist. "

I'm afraid that this 'we believe nothing' line is beginning to wear a bit thin. You do believe lots of things and have a great many presuppositions. Empiricism, materialism and like sheep you all fall for the 'ooh look how bad and evil the Phelps are, they are just where Christianity inevitably leads you'.

Firstly, where is the evidence that we all believe this is the logical conclusion of christianity. You really hate atheists and will misrepresent them at every opportunity. I interpret your resposes as if you think you're not responsible for other Atheists, well I'm not responsible for other christians (and christians they are, they confess jesus as their saviour and belive in their hearts that god raised him from the dead(rom 10:9) or are you going to claim salvation through deeds and not through faith? The bible is so inconsistant that you could claim both. Anyway, the bible says you are responsible for policing other believers. Particularly where they are in danger of truning others away - I would have thought a minister should have known that, but experience is constantly making me re-evaluate this position.
eg Hebrews 3:13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.

All of 1 cor 12

I cor 6: 5 I am saying this to shame you. Isn't there anyone in all the church who is wise enough to decide these issues? 6 But instead, one believer[a] sues another—right in front of unbelievers!

821. God Hates the World

Comment #52915 by BillySands on June 28, 2007 at 1:47 pm

David, taking a holiday is the sun eh? taking the family? what an extravagance? You should have given the money to the poor and followed jesus Matt 19:16-34 oh wait, he doesnt do that either Jn 12:1-8

our presuppositions as you like to call them are sound rational ones your's are not. I could ask you to justify your position, but experience tells me you wont. I presume because you cant, but i'm always willing to be proven wrong.

How do you know that you are reading in the "correct" context? Afterall, jesus said (assuming he existed here just for the sake of arguement) that the most important command was to love god. Well, god specifically hates gays, moabites, shellfish etc. How is his killing of babies justified in ex 11? how can you possibly say that is loving? was it love that said kill homosexuals? was it love that told joshuah to kill everything in jerico? Was it love that prompted god to threaten folk into starvation where he specifically said they would eat their own children (eg deut 28)? What about intervening to save jepthah's saughter? Was it love that allowed slavery and not condemn it? Does love turn rivers to blood threaten to send wild animals to eat your babies?

this is a nice verse ezekiel 5: 16 When I shoot at you with my deadly and destructive arrows of famine, I will shoot to destroy you. I will bring more and more famine upon you and cut off your supply of food. 17 I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the LORD have spoken."

Is this how you would dicipline your son if you saw him idolising carmen electra instead of god?

Hell, lets show the "loving" bits of deut 28:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.

17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.

18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.

19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.

20 The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. [a] 21 The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The LORD will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and ravish her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The LORD will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The LORD will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your fathers. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror and an object of scorn and ridicule to all the nations where the LORD will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The alien who lives among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 He will lend to you, but you will not lend to him. He will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come upon you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the LORD your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the LORD sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The LORD will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the LORD your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering that your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For she intends to eat them secretly during the siege and in the distress that your enemy will inflict on you in your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the LORD your God- 59 the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your God. 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the LORD will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, "If only it were evening!" and in the evening, "If only it were morning!"-because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. 68 The LORD will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.

Truely sweet!
BTW How do these people differ from those you say god loves? in your eyes they are all sinners

822. Rival to evolution may enter schools

Comment #52880 by BillySands on June 28, 2007 at 11:19 am

I like the Egyptian account of creation: Amun Ra had a chug http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/amun.html wonder if they will teach that in catholic schools?

823. Lecture on Neo-Darwinism

Comment #52840 by BillySands on June 28, 2007 at 7:31 am

Tyler
sent this.
"I would like to take issue with John Lundberg. There is so much evidence to support evolution, it is difficult to chose which to include in a sound bite. There is the fossil record, where life starts out simple and becomes more complex. There are the so-called intermediate fossils that link different groups of animals, and they occur at the correct time in history: you don't find fossil birds in rocks older than the oldest fish. We see plenty of intermediates linking the groups in between: Tiktaalik linking fish and amphibians; Proterogyrinus linking amphibians to reptiles; Apsisaurus, linking early reptiles to the group that gave rise to the dinosaurs, and Achaeopteryx linking dinosaurs to birds. These are a tiny proportion of the number of known intermediates.



We also have compelling DNA evidence. One example I like is the Ice fish of Baffin Island. They have no haemoglobin. They do however contain the decaying remains of haemoglobin genes. The obvious explanation: they evolved from species that did have these genes. One final point, every time an antibiotic resistant bug appears, that's evolution!

Dr William Sands

Clydebank"

Keep us posted of responses

Cheers

Billy

824. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #52779 by BillySands on June 28, 2007 at 4:10 am

quetz

I'm sending you a PM

J
I know what you mean about addiction

825. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #52624 by BillySands on June 27, 2007 at 2:40 pm

Lee and Theo
Concerning the flood, I read on a christian's blog a totally obvious question.Why did people with boats not survive?
Simple but devastating

826. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #52623 by BillySands on June 27, 2007 at 2:37 pm

Hi J

I get the impression that David tightly controls the site now. I thik I challenged some of to question why they believed what they did. I often pushed them to back up statements like "the bible was never meant to be a science text book" or think about whether messianic prophecies were actually about jesus. This was the thing that really blew it all appart for me. There were plenty of other reasons not to believe, but the MP's made me certain that it was all made up.

I do have one friend who is not affraid to be challenged (to an extent) He accepts there are problems in the bible at any rate, but still believes they must be resolvable. At least he is not an inerrantist. You generally find that the people who left the faith know more about the bible than many believers - probably because they honestly struggled to believe, but found they couldn't. I distinctly got the impression from DR on anther thread that he did not know the bible called homosexuality an abomination and worthy of stoning. I think I know what buttons to press with him now, but despite dangling the bait, I really hope he does some serious reflection.He is in a power of authority, and his church are well known for their bigoted attitudes and hell fire preaching. By denying it goes on, he is part of the problem.
Anyway, if you want to try some moderates, my friend has just started a blog, he says he wants an interactive forum (members of my old church read it, so I'm going to start posting on it too), so if you are both in agreement, I'll give you the URL

827. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #52617 by BillySands on June 27, 2007 at 2:16 pm

Good news about the students Epeeist. I used to work with someone who competed in the olympics - Elaine Kellet. Do you know her?

I might saunter on over and check this guy out. Might be entertaining :-)

828. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #52592 by BillySands on June 27, 2007 at 11:43 am

Hi J,

I'm sure there was domeone on DR troll site who said that he was helping them deconvert. You could try converts corner. It's at the top left of the page. There certainly have been plenty of folk who have said they reasoned themselves into athiesm. Myself and JC Samuelson on this thread are examples, so there is always hope. Mark is the only guy I've come across that tries to present positive evidence (oh and Shaun). Too many dogmatic theists with the intention of denying evolution or preaching visit this site.

How is everyone here anyway? All good I hope

829. God Hates the World

Comment #52523 by BillySands on June 27, 2007 at 7:36 am

Hi J,
I think all those threads have been removed now. The site has been redesigned and heavily moderated. I was going to post on it recently, but my old log on details did not work. That coupled to the fact David has deleted posts of mine and Martin Gill's in particular made me decide it wasn't worth the effort of typing a lengthy post that would not be published - makes you wonder why he changed it really. I was even polite too, as not everyone there is abusive.

Interestingly, one of the posts that kept getting removed was one of his abusive posts that I posted in a thread where he made deliberately inaccurate statements about atheists

David, plenty of atheists have had minor quibbles with Dawkin's here. You are just being dishonest again, because I know someone had one on your own troll thread here.

BTW Mark Tauton's thread is 25 (nearer26)pages long, and I think most people on it (incuding Mark) are enjoying and benefiting from it. It is proper exchange after all - something David doesn't do http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,323,The-God-of-the-Bible-is-No-Delusion,Christadelphianorg

I hope he is able to come back soon

830. God Hates the World

Comment #52511 by BillySands on June 27, 2007 at 6:52 am

I really dont seee why David is so offended - it must be a religious thing or his pathological hatred of atheists.

Surely the important thing is that we should all be united in wanting to prevent the young girl being poisoned by this shit.

This won't get through DR's skull, but RD was right to show this as evidence of what religion can do (note use of the word can david).
I remember when I was living in St Andrews (only 10 miles from David), a fundie (called Mrs Ross - know her David?) used to go around all the doors. Her opening line was not hello, it was "you're a sinner" What a disgusting message. What if a young child opened the door, what if she started prattling on about Hell to the child like happened to the member of David's church that I know

831. God Hates the World

Comment #52508 by BillySands on June 27, 2007 at 6:41 am

Although I received personal e-mails from some of you saying that this is not representative of the atheist cause, not one of you has the balls to criticise your fellow atheists on this site.

You really do have a problem. You can't even take a show of humanity from an atheist without twisting it and attacking them. Methinks thou doest protest too much - closet atheist!

Like I said earlier, you dont have the integrity to criticise members of your own church

832. God Hates the World

Comment #52505 by BillySands on June 27, 2007 at 6:32 am

Personally, I am interested in the arguments and in the discussion

Lies, lies, lies lies

Remember micah 5:2, Isaiah 7:14, quirinius, paleopathology, morality, memes? etc etc? I disagreed with you. You provided no counter arguements, and just got abusive - Sweet little David, never does a thing wrong and is always the victim - Aye right!

Many theists come on here and are treated with respect by most. If every one here treated you with respect (which in your case has to be earned given what you have said in the past), you would make a big deal out of that one individual, and tar us all with the same brush.

Incidentally, who the hell are you that we should take moral lessons from? Most atheists I know are better people than most christian I know.

(what david hears: "All atheists are superior to all christians")

833. God Hates the World

Comment #52498 by BillySands on June 27, 2007 at 6:22 am

Even if those guys are atheists (which you haven't yet given evidence for) so what? "Atheism" is not an agreed set of doctrines, it is merely an absence of certain doctrines. There is no reason at all why I should agree with or feel responsible for some other atheist.

What's more, we dont do bad things because we believe in a holy book that has a significal amount of evil moral guidelines, and that is a big difference. Religion teaches people to be bad - unless you are one of those christian that cherry pick moral values using their Darwinianly shaped moral compass

834. God Hates the World

Comment #52493 by BillySands on June 27, 2007 at 6:16 am

David,
Accusing folk of rudeness is rich coming from you, and your snide nature continues in your own posts despite your protestations about others. Also, I think people are rude because you are incredibly thick and never enter into discussion, but always bring it down to calling people naive and stupid. That is the basis of most of your last lot of comments. You never explain why you think these people are naive and stupid. You just cant say that and expect respect - especially when you never justify your position . I suspect if you actually tried that, then you would have to realise the bible is essentially evil with some good secular moral standards thrown in.
I am serious, I think you need to see a shrink about your style of relating to those who challenge you. I think you have some deep psychological deficiency.
I find your comments about your moral superiority very hypocritical. There are arse holes on your website - one even said burn the god delusion. Did you ban him? You even said that you hoped what people said on your site did not give people a bad impression of your church. Did you ban them? I challenged you to speak out about the small mindedness of members of your church - did you? Did you fuck! You seemed to deny that many wish to impose their will on others - I even posted newspaper links. You claimed a witch hunt exists towards creationist biochemists. I provided you with evidence that no such thing exists and asked you to retract it. You did not and still propagate the lie! I pointed out that a member of your church was mentally abused by the doctrine of hell. Rather than say how bad it is, you initially denied it even happen, then accused me of linking your church to the WBC. How does that work? Stop trying to defend bad things, or use it as an opportunity to abuse atheists.

TAKE A LONG LOOK IN THE MIRROR

BTW this hypothetical gay wee free minister, would you tell him he has to change?

835. 'I have never been happier' says the man who won gold but lost God

Comment #52463 by BillySands on June 27, 2007 at 4:33 am

Best quote from the above is "I suggest we pray for Jonathan Edwards that he will come back to God and that his blind-faith with return with opened eyes."

Thats worthy of fundies say the darndest things http://www.fstdt.com/

836. 'I have never been happier' says the man who won gold but lost God

Comment #52454 by BillySands on June 27, 2007 at 4:09 am

Thank god for that.
I'm glad he has not found it a struggle when he dumped his faith. For many it is a very hard time. This really is good news though, and such a high profile de-convert too

BTW I'm a lot happier after losing my delusion too

837. God Hates the World

Comment #52435 by BillySands on June 27, 2007 at 3:08 am

What I find odd is the fact that he would make you in such away to do things that he finds disgusting, like jobbies and sticky white wee wees
leviticus 15 16 "Whenever a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his entire body in water, and he will remain ceremonially unclean until the next evening.[c] 17 Any clothing or leather with semen on it must be washed in water, and it will remain unclean until evening. 18 After a man and a woman have sexual intercourse, they must each bathe in water, and they will remain unclean until the next evening."

Indeed, god must think women are jazz musicians, as he makes them hum at rag time:
Lev15:19 "Whenever a woman has her menstrual period, she will be ceremonially unclean for seven days. Anyone who touches her during that time will be unclean until evening. 20 Anything on which the woman lies or sits during the time of her period will be unclean. 21 If any of you touch her bed, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. 22 If you touch any object she has sat on, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. 23 This includes her bed or any other object she has sat on; you will be unclean until evening if you touch it. 24 If a man has sexual intercourse with her and her blood touches him, her menstrual impurity will be transmitted to him. He will remain unclean for seven days, and any bed on which he lies will be unclean."

Yet, we are to be fruitful and multiply?

Hmmm
- Loving god or misogynistic wanker?
Don't think the bible says anything about blow jobs though

838. God Hates the World

Comment #52421 by BillySands on June 27, 2007 at 2:11 am

Dr Benway, I've been good too.
I even helped a little old lady across the road last night. Now give us the secret of funny before my apparently poisoned mind goes on a fundie killing spree.
Oh and if DR is still reading, maybe he can explain how he got from my disgust of members of his church abusing their children to me being a sicko?

839. God Hates the World

Comment #52143 by BillySands on June 26, 2007 at 10:08 am

Scottishgeologistausing trouble over doctrine again, you will surely go to hell :-)

Interestingly, the cristadelphians for one dont accept the trinity (they all seem a bunch of nice christians, David should take note) One of them makes agood case against the trinity in this post http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,323,The-God-of-the-Bible-is-No-Delusion,Christadelphianorg,page7#12049
.
Like you say, it's not just the johannine comma that is unoriganal, there are may such verses http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/manufall.html

Interestingly, when Christians feel theatened, they usually mention christian scientists like newton. The funny thing is, he has a unitarian, not a trinitarian.

I see David has been stomping his feet on Pharyngula - and plugging his book - and he has the cheek to accuse RD of the same. A christian suggested to me that DR is a mirror immage anti-particle to RD. I can see where he gets it from. One is a brilliant academic with a couple of best selling books, and the other one lives in Dundee

I wonder if robertson's site is moderated to cocoon his sheep from reason? Wonder how may de-converted because of the athiest invasion that he brought about.

840. God Hates the World

Comment #52099 by BillySands on June 26, 2007 at 6:37 am

I would like to see more (intelligent) religious people on these boards who are prepared to at least attempt rational debate

I agree. I've even tried to get a few to come on.

841. Germany imposes ban on Tom Cruise

Comment #52079 by BillySands on June 26, 2007 at 5:34 am

Nice to see the German's are not letting the religious tell them what to do (thats sarcasm by the way).
Apparently the chancellor wants an acknowledgement of Europe's Christian identity written into the constitution. Let's start with acknowledging Hitler's use of Christianity

842. God Hates the World

Comment #52072 by BillySands on June 26, 2007 at 5:11 am

One other thing, it seems a common tactic with the religious to claim that those who disagree with them are not religious. This is total rubbish. I remember some guy on David's web site saying that there was no deate between chistians on homosexuality - apparently everyone who thinks homosexuals are OK are not by his definition christion - POOF! (pardon the word) he can stick his head in the sand and the problem disappears. David appears to be trying the same here.
He may want to compare his style with that of Jackson's and learn

Philip, praise Quetz He has provided

843. God Hates the World

Comment #52065 by BillySands on June 26, 2007 at 4:34 am

Another great post Robert.
David, why do you keep twisting peoples words and puting your own spin on it. I really can't tell if you are deranged and actually hear what is not said, of if you are just a liar - well, we have already established that you lie, so I guess the real question is are youy a deranged liar?
It's funny, but always sad, that you accuse those who disagree with you as throwing accusations. You never actually give reasons for your opinions and just hurl abuse. This website is full of attempts by me to get into a proper debate with you, but you just make accusation and spout bile about atheism. Tell me, is it a sin to be nasty to atheists? Or does your does your belief that we are going to hell justify this behaviour? Is it a sin to give false witness too? No doubt you will tell your sheep (and I mean that in the mindless sense) about us nasty atheists, and make up thing we didn't say - as is your forte. Maybe you need a counsellor of what you read is not what you actually hear - get help dude.
People in your church may need to be told what to think, but here, I doubt there are many who did not become atheists through their own investigation. I can understand why a lost sheep like you can't grasp the fact that we don't need to be told what to think by the likes of Dawkins

Philip, thanks for the praise, but I am meerly a disciple of the one true god Quetz. He said he would send me Jessica Biel - praise his holy appendage (hope that wasn't too gay for you David)
However, making an army of gay flies costs money and I need a private jet and a play station 3, so send all donations to my evil bank account - Girls can also send in photos of themselves in their swim wear.

844. God Hates the World

Comment #51955 by BillySands on June 25, 2007 at 4:20 pm

Hey David,
I just realised you actually answered my question. It only took 6 months to get a straight answer out of you - which is remarkably at variance with your previous implications on the subject. Could there be some hope for you? All you need to do now is stop telling people it's wrong - especially since you can't tell us why- and you will be on your way to being a compassionate secular human being.

Since the topic that the WBC are the only true followes of the bible, and because you liked it so much, I'll post this comment for you again http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,1197,Debate-between-Richard-Dawkins-and-Robert-Winston,Today-BBC,page4#46439

"Biblicists often claim that because we all seem to share certain moral values, there must be an external provider of these values (their god) that fixes them in the hearts of man (Rom.1:19). This is an idea that CS Lewis discusses in "Mere Christianity". If this were true, then all people would be able to make the same moral judgements on a given topic. This is clearly not the case. One just has to think about the number of disagreements believers have amongst themselves (gay bishops (Think requirements for salvation) women priests (Think equality) and contraception (think HIV in Africa)) are a few examples. Christians usually respond to this by saying that people have their own agendas and are not following God (in other words everyone is wrong but me). The trouble is that both sides usually make valid biblical arguments. The real problem however is that the bible is self contradictory on so many issues, that you cannot use it as a guidebook. Here is an example of the contradictions concerning homosexual bishops: the bible says that homosexuals must be killed (Lev. 20:13), Jesus never gave any instructions to the contrary. If he did, he would be contradicting God. Compare this to Paul's statement that all things are permissible; even the ones that are not good for you (1Cor.10:23). Not one to be consistent though, Paul also orders a congregation to kick a sinner out of their church (1 Cor.5:1-2) Paul also tells us that EVERYONE is a sinner (Rom. 3:9-18) so why single one group out? Yet again, Paul contradicts himself and other Christians on Rom.1:19 by informing us that rather than having God's laws written on their hearts, people actually need to be taught right from wrong (Rom. 10:13-14 and 2:21). Therefore, if even their holy book shows itself to be contradictory and inconsistent, then the idea of a morally guiding god is not a viable hypothesis.
Morality is not just a question of what you do, but why you do it. This is a common Christian response to apparent examples of moral behaviour in other animals. I do however strongly doubt that true intention based morality is a common theme in every day life. Try this thought experiment: imagine you are out and you walk past a tramp. He is a dirty-faced abusive alcoholic. His beard is encrusted with vomit, his breath stinks, and he smells of stale urine. His penis is also hanging out. What do you do? Most likely, you walk past him. You may even feel disgust and call the police. You may however throw some money at him out of pity, but that just hurts him more, because he will buy some alcohol with it. What you would not do (purely out of love for him) is take him home and help him sort out his life. But that is what Jesus tells you to do. To do otherwise is a sin (Matt. 25:41-46). The very few (if any) who would genuinely take him home, I salute you, but how many of you would also be Christian?
Now on to the stuff they don't teach you in Sunday school. Firstly, God set up man to fail. I say this because before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they could not know that it was wrong to disobey this dictatorial and draconian god (Gen.3:5 and 22). To make matters even worse, he put the serpent in the garden to tempt these naïve people into disobeying him (Gen.3.1-6). God even make this evil creature in the first place (Gen.3:1). What a bastard! That shows as much parental responsibility as hiring a paedophile to baby-sit for you! Because of this situation, God condemns all mankind to die. What a thoroughly evil act. This is just the first of many examples of God punishing people for "sins" perpetrated by others (Ex. 11 (very disgusting slaughter of children) Is. 14-21-22 and Deut.5:9 for example). Imagine the police arresting you one night because your great grandfather was an Australian sheep rustler or a German concentration camp guard, it is just ludicrous. Most bizarrely, he even punishes people for being evil and audacious enough to be born to unmarried parents, or because they were born in the wrong place, like Moab (Deut.23:2-3). Bizarre, because he (through the birth of Jesus) is the bastard descendant of a bastard and a Moabite (Matt. 1:3-5, Gen.38, Ru. 4 and Matt. 1-18-19).
Not only has God created evil, he often uses it to harm others (Lam. 3:38, Jer. 26:3, 36:3, and 1Sam. 16:33 to name a few). He even uses lies when it suits him (2Chron. 18:19-22). The bible also tells us that God hardens the hearts of those he wants to destroy, such as the Pharaoh (Ex. 14:1-31) and he does this after he has bullied the Egyptians into getting his way. It didn't seem to matter that his gripe was with an individual, because he was cruel to the whole nation. God basically took away Pharaohs' free will and lead him and others to destruction. What happened to mercy and forgiveness? If you are going to make Pharaoh do something, then why not just make him let the Israelites go free, with out all that nastiness, plagues and the unjustifiable killing of Egypt's first born? If all this was true, you have got think Pharaoh must have been incredibly thick not to let the Israelites go. The exodus probably never happened, but that doesn't change the immoral nature of the god of the bible. Remember, this is a God who for no good reason other than because he is God, prevents people from believing in him and being saved (Rom. 9:18).

The whole book of Joshua is about God ordained acts of ethnic cleansing, intolerance and genocide. Apparently God did not want his people contaminated with the practices of pagans. Again, this does not justify the extreme methods that God commanded, including infanticide. This means that if you are different, God does not want to forgive and enlighten you. In fact, he wants you and your babies dead. The contradiction with NT theology is glaringly obvious! Again, God's inability to be pleased (and inconsistency) is shown when he orders the Israelites to "righteously murder" the Midianites, including women and children (Num. 39). This very act however makes the Israelites impure and unable to approach God (Num. 31:19). In other words, God says "I am the God of righteousness, who cannot abide evil. Go and carryout this evil act that I demand or I will be angry, even although this act will make you repulsive to me."

God also doesn't have a problem with forcing people into cannibalism (Lev. 26:29, Jer. 19:9). Neither does he have a problem with kidnapping women, nor with making them gifts to be used as sex slaves (Jud. 21:11-14). In fact, the god of the bible doesn't think too much of women at the best of times. These following attitudes make me sick! A rapist must marry his victim. Forcing someone to live with their abuser is just about the worst thing you can make them do, and to rub salt into the wounds, the victim's father must be compensated (Deut. 22:28-29). Eve also gets all the blame for the original sin (1Tim. 2:12-14), and women are the property of men and were created for men, because we are superior. They must be silent in church and never hold authority over men, or even teach a man (1Cor. 11:8-9, 14:34-35, Eph. 5:21, Col. 3:18, 1Tim.2:11-14). All however is not lost, as a woman can be saved through childbirth (1Tim. 2:15). The only problem is that God would rather men didn't get married (1Cor. 7:8), and for those lucky enough to get a man, child birth will be incredibly painful (Gen.3:16). Yep, God hates women!
So, what does he like then? Well, slavery for one, as long as the slaves are not Israelite (Lev. 25:44-46). Furthermore, he doesn't mind you beating them, as long as you don't kill them (Ex. 21:22-24). God likes slavery so much; he even sets different laws for the welfare of slaves and their Israelite masters. If an owner knocks out a slaves eye, he must set the slave free (Ex. 21:26). If he did it to another Israelite, the law requires the loss of his eye too (Ex. 21:22-24). I like Gandhi's observation (pardon the pun) that an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. Should the master kill the slave, the punishment is not defined (Ex. 20:21) here, but if he kills an Israelite, he too must be killed (Ex. 21:12). God also likes perfectly formed people too. Any one deformed may not approach him (Lev. 21:16-23). He must love having someone to hate, because the bible tells us that he knits people together in the womb (Ps. 139:13-15). So I guess every now and then, he uses his special magic god powers of righteous justice to decide exactly who to make deformed, just so he can hate them. The almighty loving God is also partial to accepting the occasional human sacrifice (Num. 31:40, Jud. 11:29-40) In the second example, a girl (Jephthah's daughter) was sacrificed to God because of her fathers' vows. Of course, if you question God on the subject, he denies accepting human sacrifice at all, claiming the whole idea to be abhorrent to him (Jer. 19:4-6). Nice lie your holiness! The only time God actually behaves himself, is when he is worried about how he appears to others, and not because it is the right thing to do (Ex. 32:11-14 and Num. 14:15-20). In fact, the supposed sacrifice on the cross was (as many Christians will tell you) was for his own glory.
Moral god? Don't make me laugh! I'll tell you what does make me laugh however, is the story where Elisha gets God to make some bears maul and kill 42 young boys for calling him baldy (2Kin. 2:23-24). It's a good job that they didn't call him a specky big nosed feminist and abolitionist! If they had, the loving, forgiving and slow to anger god of the bible would probably eternally curse mankind (not again!), and make us all lesbian Moabite hunchbacks. That would give him a real reason to be cruel to us. Clearly, the nature of God does not give an explanation as to where the "better" aspects of human nature come from. Modern evolutionary approaches are now, just starting to provide an explanation for the existence of morality.
More krazee kristianity here: http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/index.html
"

Yep, WBC are the true followers of Yahweh - you're off to hell - be sure and tell your kids. Just to clarify,I may not like you, but I dont actually hate you. I have no respect for your views or the way you conduct yourself on these threads, but I actually feel sorrow for you, not hate - despite what you try to say about my attitutde to christianity. You need to take a step back and stop puting words into people's mouths - stop misquoting RD for your own purposes

845. God Hates the World

Comment #51921 by BillySands on June 25, 2007 at 2:47 pm

Billy - in his usual cheap and nasty way now tries to equate this kind of abuse with my church. Again stomach churning ignorance and hatred. This is the kind of abuse and sick mind that you are feeding, Dr Dawkins.

What is sick about not wanting people metally scarred by fearing they will go to hell for the slightest misdemeaner - including wanting a tatoo. If you think this is acceptable, it is you who is sick. This is a member of your church, and you had the balls to lie on a previous thread that this does not go on. I'm also considerably more gay friendly than you. You can stick your barbaric immoral standards up your arse. I and many others on this site are glad we dont have your sick moral codes.
I also dont subscribe to the view that all religious people are mental fuck ups. There are plenty of good one - not you however, so stop telling lies about what I believe. And this has nothing to do with ideology here. For me it is about pointing out something that is wrong - but you just have to use it to fuel your own little bigotries about atheists

846. God Hates the World

Comment #51917 by BillySands on June 25, 2007 at 2:40 pm

No it is not religion. No it does not need any further exposure. It has already been used many times - including in TGD.

I disagree. It's been mentioned once, so lets sweep it under the carpet and and carry on with our little delusion. Is that it? You would deny others the chance to know this goes on then? How religous of you.
It most certainly is religion, so dont pretend it is not. Redefining religion does not work. Feel free to explain why these people are not religious.

And please - do not bother coming on to this thread about abuse and then be abusive in the juvenile and immature way that seems to be your forte

Actually David that is your forte, how many times have you been banned? You also lie, contradict yourself, abuse those who disagree with you, run from debate when you are losing. You are an innane bigot who cannot look beyond his own little meme and cant tolerate people who differ.
So, you never answered my question - oh tolerant one. Would you allow a homosexual to be a minister in your church?

847. God Hates the World

Comment #51905 by BillySands on June 25, 2007 at 2:21 pm

The people in this video are crazy and would be just as crazy sans any religious influence.

I don't know about that, that little girl has had that hatred forced upon her. It will poison her mind. That's why it is abuse, and when the likes of Robertson take offense at exposing this, we should post more. There are members of his church who have been brought up fearing hell - it impacts negatively on their lives and ability to form functional relationships. Robertsons response: it's lies that doesnt go on in his church - even though I know one it has happened to - says it all really

848. God Hates the World

Comment #51900 by BillySands on June 25, 2007 at 2:07 pm

David, stop being a prick. Do you think this should not be exposed?
This is religion and it is bad. Do you disagree? You obviously dont like people criticising religion and use words like which hunt. You seem to think you alone have a true understanding of your religion. Try reading some of the ot laws again. The bible tells us that your god is not loving - even jesus invents hell - oh and sheol is not hell. You are morally corrupt, and I left a little message on that other thread showing you cant even agree with yourself http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,1321,His-word-Attacking-religion-can-seem-like-breaking-a-butterfly-on-a-wheel,David-Baddiel,page2#51867

849. His word: Attacking religion can seem like breaking a butterfly on a wheel

Comment #51867 by BillySands on June 25, 2007 at 12:32 pm

For the record I disagree with all three of your 'facts'.

David, for the record

Fact 1 You say homosexuality is wrong: http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,300,Dawkins-Delusion-3rd-article-Same-Stupid-Title,David-Robertson,page14#12797 "The Bible says that the practice of homosexuality is wrong."
AND ON THIS THREAD

Fact 2 read Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
"20:13. see also your comments above

Fact 3 you made the westminister confession of faith which states : "25:6 "There is no other Head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ:anor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God"

Are you confused? Which ones do you actually disgree with? You seem to be contradicting yourself

perhaps you would like to get back on to the original thread that you did a runner from - the would we be bettor off without religion one, and not make excuses. I want your opinion, not some books. That suggests you want to evadeand cant think for yourself. I find your accusation of accusations telling considering you cant agree with yourself.
Many of us here dont want you banned, you are good for Atheism, and I'm sure if you answer questions, Josh wont ban you. It seems to take less for a banning threat on your site: apparently all you need to do is post on numerous threads and actually hang around on them to debate with folk - call me rational!

850. His word: Attacking religion can seem like breaking a butterfly on a wheel

Comment #51822 by BillySands on June 25, 2007 at 6:29 am

David, Just how simple do I have to make this for you?
Fact 1 you have said homosexuality is wrong. You don't justify why.
Fact 2 The bible says kill homosexuals
Fact 3 You made an oath that the pope was the antichrist. You either lied then, or you are lying now - which is it?

Do uou disagree with any of these statements?

Please clarify. Would you extend equal rights to gays in everything? Or do you discriminate without any justification other than the fact a book of grossly immoral teachings says so.

I'll rephrase my other question, would you allow a homosexual to be a minister in your church? If not, why not?

I keep bringing this up, because on several other threads you said you would happily say what harm homosexuality does, but you keep evading and clearing off without answering the question. If you cant justify your own moral position, why should we take you seriously - afterall, I believe your belief in a moral law is one reason you believe in god - although, I think the real reason is mmetic - another question you regularly evade